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November 19th, 2011
11:21 AM ET

In video, White House shooting suspect calls himself 'modern-day Jesus'

By Mariano Castillo and Greg Botelho, CNN

(CNN) - Weeks before his arrest on a charge of attempting to assassinate President Barack Obama, an Idaho man taped a video pitch for Oprah Winfrey - expressing his contempt for government, offering secrets to solving global problems and proclaiming himself to be "the modern-day Jesus Christ."

The video, released Friday to CNN by Idaho State University, features a man dressed in all black, with brown hair, a beard and a crucifix hanging around his neck.

"My name is Oscar Ortega from Idaho Falls, Idaho, and I feel like I am the perfect candidate to get cast on your show because not only do I have a solution to make a huge impact on this world with small changes to our daily lives, I also have with me the answer to worldwide peace," he states.

The previous Friday, a witness in Washington described to investigators hearing about "eight sounds of popping noise" and seeing "puffs of air" from a car that was registered to Ortega. One bullet hit a window on the White House but was stopped by bulletproof glass, the Secret Service said, while another was found on the White House exterior.

Read the full story here.
- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Violence

soundoff (524 Responses)
  1. Awkward Situations

    [Double posted here from the 1st page]
    @David Johnson: I'm really glad that I came back to read the comments on this article! Your posts are excellent and educational and they were really interesting to read.

    Many religious people like to point out that we don't know everything there is to know about the universe, i.e. the Big Bang, dark matter and dark energy. Science is perfectly comfortable with saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Religion likes to step in and say, "Ahh ha! You don't know! So it must be that god exists since we can't explain it!". This is a weak-minded argument if I ever heard of one. We are still trying to understand how we exist and why we have the conscious ability to reflect on why we exist.

    I imagine an arena in which occupies the explanations of our natural world through science and through religion. The known portion for which we have explanations is represented by science and the yet unknown portion is represented by religion. In the past, religion dominated the arena. But when science started to take over, the boundaries represented by religion slowly had to be pushed back onto itself. What will happen when we eventually find out all the mysteries of our universe?

    By the way, just because the Big Bang is the beginning of our universe as we know it, it doesn't mean that other universes do not exist or that this universe began as another universe died.. there are plenty of theories for the origins of this universe and science will hopefully be able to find the answers someday. It's exciting to imagine the things that we can not yet comprehend but this curiosity of the unknown only inspires the idea of a god in the religious minded – their logic defaults them to a creator whereas in the scientific-minded person it inspires us to find out what is going on without resorting to supernatural explanations for which not one piece of evidence has ever existed.

    November 21, 2011 at 9:31 pm |
    • Chad

      [moving my response to this page]

      @Awkward Situations “Religion likes to step in and say, "Ahh ha! You don't know! So it must be that god exists since we can't explain it!". This is a weak-minded argument if I ever heard of one.”

      =>actually that is not at all true, science stops at a certain point and can not ever, by DEFINIITON, explain “everything”. Here’s what Leonard Mlodinow Co-author along with Stephen Hawkings of A Briefer History of Time has to say on the matter
      “Leonard maintains that "while science often casts doubt on spiritual beliefs and doctrines insofar as they make representations about the physical world, science does not – and cannot – conclude that God is an illusion. Leonard suggests that the universe operates according to laws of physics while acknowledging that science does not address why the laws exist or how they arise."

      =>NOTE this inability of science to disprove God has nothing to do with the impossibility of proving a negative.
      – Science starts from rules, from laws that exist
      – Science always starts from rules, that's what science is
      – as such, science BY DEFINITION can never explain WHY laws exist. That is Mlodinow's point. That is why he said that "science can never disprove God", it has nothing to do with the impossibility of proving a negative.

      His entire point was that since science can never answer the question "why does the universe obey laws", there is always going to be that (by definition impossible to answer) question. Since that question will always exist, that is why he is saying that science can NEVER disprove God. It has nothing to do with proving a negative.

      So, it’s demonstrably false to say that religion attempts to take credit for that which has yet to be understood. People that put “all their trust” in science actually make a MUCH large willfull suspension of disbelief (exactly what you accuse “religious people of”) by willfully and blatantly ignore what people like Leonard Mlodinow at least have the intellectual honesty to admit he is ignoring..”I sometimes wonder why the laws of our universe exist” – Leonard Mlodinow.

      Science is in reality, the efforts of man to understand the mechanism by which God does what He does. How much faith does it take an atheist to just say “I have no idea why the laws of the universe exist, science is based on the fact that they DO, and by definition can never explain them, but that’s ok… I”ll just ignore that..

      @Awkward Situations “By the way, just because the Big Bang is the beginning of our universe as we know it, it doesn't mean that other universes do not exist or that this universe began as another universe died.. there are plenty of theories for the origins of this universe and science will hopefully be able to find the answers someday.”

      =>Any attempt to explain the origin of our universe by pointing to a previous cause of some kind ultimately faces the problem of the infinite regression, what caused that, what caused that, and so on for ever.
      There must be a first cause, an uncaused cause. Matter doesn’t spring from nothing, which with a first uncaused cause, that’s what you’re stuck believing in.
      How much faith does it take for an atheist to be comfortable with a notion of our universe that relies on matter being created from nothing?

      With respect to the origin of the universe, an atheist faces either an infinite regression, or matter being created from nothing, by nothing.

      November 22, 2011 at 11:57 am |
    • the_truth_speaks

      the bible says in Romans 1:20:

      20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

      November 22, 2011 at 1:35 pm |
    • Observer

      the_truth_speaks,

      Not exactly. The Bible is full of errors, contradictions and hypocrisy. If it was clear, there wouldn't be any issues. If God made his presence unquestionable, there wouldn't be any atheists and agnostics.

      November 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • the_truth_speaks

      The Atheist comes up with a finite number of notions and suggestions against God's existence that continuosly backs him/her into a corner of self-doubt. Self-doubt that overtakes the atheist and may eventually brings him to the light (truth) or stifle him/her with their stubboness which is built upon pride. The atheist imagination is that of a world with no morals. With God eliminated there are no moral. He/she wants to do whatever they please (with absolutely no acountability).

      November 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • the_truth_speaks

      Observer,

      If you dont understand this simple verse, then you should read Chad's response that might help.

      November 22, 2011 at 1:55 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "The atheist imagination is that of a world with no morals. With God eliminated there are no moral. He/she wants to do whatever they please (with absolutely no acountability)."

      Yo moron, man wrote the bible...not a god....man created the rules...not a god....man created morals....not a god. Everything you just wrote is a complete lie.... wait...your bible states you can't lie....that means REPENT..quick! LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 1:57 pm |
    • fred

      Observer
      You say of God made his presence unquestionable all atheists would believe. What more do you want? You look out at a creation that blows your mind and into a puppies face that tugs at your heart. There is a reason God does not snap to your demands and throughout the Bible we see it really would not matter. From the parting of the red sea to the resurection of Christ you have more than enough. What good would that do? There are but two kinds of souls one inclined towards God and one opposed. If there is a God that God has the right and the power to design or gather what ever kinds of souls to what ever place God elects. Everyone should be overjoyed that God has elected to allow anyone that wishes to share in Gods wonder that is prepared. Just how is that not good enough.

      November 22, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • the_truth_speaks

      Proverbs 12:16

      Fools show their annoyance at once, but the prudent overlook an insult.

      November 22, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      “From the parting of the red sea”

      They’ve already proven, your god didn’t part the sea, it was low tide and Moses being from a military background knew when they could cross. No god needed for that.

      November 22, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • Steve

      That verse is very apt, Proverbs 12:16

      November 22, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Everyone should be overjoyed that God has elected to allow anyone that wishes to share in Gods wonder that is prepared. "

      Nope, doesn't work that way, you have a bunch of rules to follow, you break one, you're off to hell to be torture for life. That's not a loving god, that is a god made up by man so you would obey their rules. No god needed for that. LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • Chad

      Ummmmm “From the parting of the red sea” They’ve already proven, your god didn’t part the sea, it was low tide and Moses being from a military background knew when they could cross. No god needed for that."

      =>two points:
      1. why did the Pharaohs army all drown if it was low tide when they attempted to follow? If you are claiming that chariots couldn't cross, surely the foot soldiers could, and the Israelite s were vastly outnumbered and not outfitted for a battle in any way.

      2. But, lets say it was some other natural occurrence such as a tsunami that caused a land bridge to appear, how did Moses just happen to show up on the shores at exactly the right time when there was this brief window in time where he could lead the Israelite s across, and no one else could follow?

      November 22, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "1. why did the Pharaohs army all drown if it was low tide when they attempted to follow? If you are claiming that chariots couldn't cross, surely the foot soldiers could, and the Israelite s were vastly outnumbered and not outfitted for a battle in any way.

      2. But, lets say it was some other natural occurrence such as a tsunami that caused a land bridge to appear, how did Moses just happen to show up on the shores at exactly the right time when there was this brief window in time where he could lead the Israelite s across, and no one else could follow?"

      Poor chad is trying to spin it to believe it was still a god. The point is it can be explained and no god was needed but they did need the imagination of men to create such a cockamamie story. LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 2:42 pm |
    • Chad

      @Ummmmm "Poor chad is trying to spin it to believe it was still a god. The point is it can be explained and no god was needed but they did need the imagination of men to create such a coc kamamie story. LOL!"

      =>look, it's easy. There is an account of the Israelites escaping pursuit by Pharaohs army by crossing a large body of water with the pursuing army being drowned in the attempt.

      Now there are several things an atheist could do:
      – claim that they crossed during low tide, then try and explain how the pursuing army drowned at low tide
      – claim that they crossed during low tide and the pursuing army having chariots couldn't, then try and explain why the pursuing army didn't just wait 6 hours and catch the Israelite's (who were on foot).
      – claim some other natural phenomena like a tsunami occured, allowing the Israelites to cross and the pursuing army drowned in the wave, then try and explain how it was the Moses showed up on the shoreline at the exact right time to get across
      – claim the entire story is made up, then have to explain how a large group of people (the Israelites) suddenly appeared in Canaan and started taking over. Where did they come from? As well, would a group of people absolutely obsessed with accuracy in detail make it up?

      November 22, 2011 at 2:59 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "There is an account of the Israelites escaping pursuit by Pharaohs army by crossing a large body of water with the pursuing army being drowned in the attempt."

      Keep showing you're clueless dude. You have no clue what I am talking about...it's not the red sea moron....LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 3:01 pm |
    • Yup

      "Keep showing you're clueless dude. You have no clue what I am talking about...it's not the red sea moron....LOL!"

      Chad's probably quickly googling it since he doesn't understand true religion and history. This is funny to read, thanks for the laughs.

      November 22, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • Steve

      Ummm...you seem to know with certainity as to what actually took place at the parting of the red sea. I have the Biblical account with me, why don't your enlighten us with your own account of what exactly you witnessed that day?

      November 22, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • Chad

      Ummmmm "Keep showing you're clueless dude. You have no clue what I am talking about...it's not the red sea moron....LOL!"

      and another option,
      – if you want to claim that the large body of water was the "sea of reeds" not the "Red Sea" (which is why I said large body of water, not specifying which), you then have to explain how Pharaohs army all drowned in a swamp when the Israelites crossed fine..
      – or, if you want to go back to a low tide sea of reeds, then you have to explain why Pharaohs army didnt just wait 6 hours and cross themselves at low tide..

      November 22, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • really?

      Do we have people here that have live for thousands of years that have witnessed the parting of the red sea? that can given an alternate account to what the Bible actually says?

      November 22, 2011 at 3:13 pm |
    • Yup

      "that can given an alternate account to what the Bible actually says?"

      I believe that's the point being made. To men back in that time who didn't understand our world as we do now thought the fact they crossed at low tide and then an army was wiped out had to be the work of a god, when in fact it probably was no such thing. There are many instance in the bible that are attributed to a god that can now be explained scientifically once you factor in the cycles of nature, the cause and effects of nature.

      November 22, 2011 at 3:19 pm |
    • Ummmm

      "Ummm...you seem to know with certainity as to what actually took place at the parting of the red sea. I have the Biblical account with me, why don't your enlighten us with your own account of what exactly you witnessed that day?"

      Nice deflection steve you must be related to chad. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 3:20 pm |
    • Brian

      So Chad you believe it is all about your god parting the seas so what do you think when it's still happening even to this day? Why is your god still parting the seas? Check it out it's pretty cool.

      http://www.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/SI/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=264282

      November 22, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @ everyone debating with chad

      It's generally in exercise in futility. I would like to point out his faovrite quote that he peddles to every board by Leonard Mlodinow is hilarious because a) he uses it like it's holy writ and so can not be proven false because he's smart and apparently no one else is as smart and b) the irony is that Mlodinow says science does not acknowledge the "why" behind the laws of nature and that it's impossible to answer that question ..... which apparently chad has been able to answer by saying "god does it".

      Just wait for it, chad will try and bog you down in a specific point in the bible to find the few true points in the bed of lies that is the bible which somehow verifies the entire thing....like, say that there was an exodus of israelites and pharohs army was destroyed and then jumps to the conclusion "god did it" as easily as putting on a glove. Don't be fooled my friends! Chad is full of hot air!

      November 22, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
    • really?

      Do you have a video of another occurence in modern times of the parting of the same body of water ?
      Again,what a marvellous coincidence that Group A safely walked across, while Group B drowned

      November 22, 2011 at 3:42 pm |
    • fred

      Yup
      Ummmmmmmmm
      If there is no God there is no Bible and certainly no sea. My guess is that somehow if you can prove there was no sea then by extension there would be no God. Good luck with that one, fallacy 101 may raise his head. Jesus did not waste time with those that would never believe. except to make an example for others. Even the criminal on the cross that mocked Christ received not a word from Jesus. As with the entire Bible contrast is always clear between those that fear God and those who do not beginning with the two trees in the Garden of Eden right up through the two criminals on each side of Jesus at the cross

      November 22, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
    • really?

      hey umm....Please help me understand why the Israelites did not drown?

      November 22, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Again,what a marvellous coincidence that Group A safely walked across, while Group B drowned"

      You didn't look at the article Brian provided did you, this type of phenomenon only lasts about an hour. 😉 What's fun about this is that what is written in the bible can be refuted, which is why a god couldn't have inspired the writing of it. LMAO! Pretty pathetic your god couldn't write either. LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Even the criminal on the cross that mocked Christ received not a word from Jesus. As with the entire Bible contrast is always clear between those that fear God and those who do not beginning with the two trees in the Garden of Eden right up through the two criminals on each side of Jesus at the cross"

      yada, yada, yada, same crap different day – your pathetic attempt to make excuses for your god – oh that's right it never existed but was created by men who didn't understand their surroundings. 😉

      November 22, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • really?

      ummm...so are you saying Moses was a scientist to know ahead of time when the red sea parted ? do you think he had to use some form of an equation as well to tell them at what speed they should be crossing the sea?
      guys march at 10 miles an hour lest you be drowed...

      November 22, 2011 at 3:57 pm |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      “the bed of lies that is the bible”
      I am glad you did not capitalize the bible as some bibles may just be. However, the Bible is the Divine word of God. We mean the Holy word of God or the Scriptures which Jesus referred to. Important parts of any culture are passed down from generation to generation. It would be intellectually dishonest to take out a broad brush and discount all of Scripture because you like a small minority have come across something profound that you cannot understand while others are enlightened by it.
      The arguments you put up against the truth of the Bible are as large as a believer would up in validating the Bible. Believers accept many of your thoughts as probable yet you would call the Scripture a bed of lies. This is why atheists are in the minority.

      November 22, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "ummm...so are you saying Moses was a scientist to know ahead of time when the red sea parted ? do you think he had to use some form of an equation as well to tell them at what speed they should be crossing the sea?
      guys march at 10 miles an hour lest you be drowed..."

      wow are you an idiot....recurring...do you not understand that concept? LOL! Come on now...keep trying to help your helpless god out, keep showing how things can be refuted. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      ". It would be intellectually dishonest to take out a broad brush and discount all of Scripture because you like a small minority have come across something profound that you cannot understand while others are enlightened by it."

      Folklore and lies is not profound.

      November 22, 2011 at 4:01 pm |
    • really?

      ummm...and Moses must have been a trained scientist and a mathematician better than the Pharaoh and his ilk to have predicted the parting at the appropriate time and to also have come up with mathematical accuracy the exact time available to cross by the speed it takes to cross the old ones and the young ones and the cattle and the sheep etc.,
      I only thought Moses was a great leader, just today I am also being told he was a scientist and a mathematician as well.
      God chooses amazing people for his glory!

      November 22, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • really?

      What a dense that pharoah must have been to comitt a political harakiri by just blindly chasing the israelites

      November 22, 2011 at 4:09 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      “ummm...and Moses must have been a trained scientist and a mathematician better than the Pharaoh and his ilk to have predicted the parting at the appropriate time and to also have come up with mathematical accuracy the exact time available to cross by the speed it takes to cross the old ones and the young ones and the cattle and the sheep etc.,
      I only thought Moses was a great leader, just today I am also being told he was a scientist and a mathematician as well.
      God chooses amazing people for his glory!”

      Keep making excuses for the lies told in the bible to support your god, but the reality is now you KNOW they are lies. No god needed for that. 😉

      November 22, 2011 at 4:11 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "What a dense that pharoah must have been to comitt a political harakiri by just blindly chasing the israelites"

      Oh please we see that stupidity even today....still no WMD in Iraq now is there. 😉 DUH! Your excuses are really entertaining.

      November 22, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
    • fred

      You cannot put what are the foundation of our western culture and the foundation for Islam in the category of folklore. Much as many scientists from many disciplines pound away at how our world works so to other disciplines pound away at why our world works. You can use the Pythagorean theorem too describe the relation in Euclidean geometry among the three sides of a right triangle but, not the relationship between the three parts of the Holy Trinity. The tools that allow you use higher math are based on other mathematical principles. The truth as supported by Scripture requires understanding of the fundamental “properties of God” before moving on to higher levels of understanding

      November 22, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
    • really?

      Please explain to me this Moses. Give me his qualification/traits he possesed and his skills. I already know the Biblical account, but you seem to have an enlightenment far superior to what is the Biblical account for Moses. I would like to be enlightened as well by you about Moses.

      November 22, 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    • really?

      Your account of Moses is he was
      1) Scientist
      2) Mathematician
      Why was his skills superior to that of the Pharoah, when they both must have learnt the same things?

      November 22, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "You can use the Pythagorean theorem too describe the relation in Euclidean geometry among the three sides of a right triangle but, not the relationship between the three parts of the Holy Trinity. The tools that allow you use higher math are based on other mathematical principles. The truth as supported by Scripture requires understanding of the fundamental “properties of God” before moving on to higher levels of understanding"

      That is all made up crap in your head. There is NO Holy Trinity and there is NO properties of a god, it's man made concept used to explain what cannot be explained. We can't explain it – it's a god – the problem lies in that as the pieces are unraveled to show they are not true, the more the bible just becomes another work of fiction based on a few historical facts doesn't mean it really happened. Since you have issues with meaning of words fred...folklore means, the body of stories and legends attached to a particular place, group. That is why the bible is just another part of folklore history. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 4:34 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Your account of Moses is he was
      1) Scientist
      2) Mathematician
      Why was his skills superior to that of the Pharoah, when they both must have learnt the same things?"

      Tisk, tisk..according to your bible lying is a sin. Keep making crap up to try and save your lies and that of the bible. You're hysterical! LMAO! LOL! LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • fred

      ummmm
      I do not know of any "folklore" that covers a minimum of 8,000 years and addresses all of mankind. Please pick another catagory as you are in Jeopardy.
      Speaking of which give me one, just one of lies you speak of in the Bible.

      November 22, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • really?

      What? you are giving up? you don't want to enlighten us about Moses anymore? c'mmon I thought you had a extra special knowledge about Moses and his skills which helped him safely guide the Israelites across the sea.

      Isn't it amazing how God can use people like Moses to be great examples for mortals like you and me to reveal to us his awesome power and provision?

      November 22, 2011 at 4:49 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Isn't it amazing how God can use people like Moses to be great examples for mortals like you and me to reveal to us his awesome power and provision?"

      Real theologians would disagree with you about your moses. LMAO! The Moses of the Bible is larger than life. The Moses of the Bible is a diplomat negotiating with the pharaoh; he is a lawgiver bringing the Ten Commandments, the Covenant, down from Sinai. The Moses of the Bible is a military man leading the Israelites in battles. He's the one who organizes Israel's judiciary. He's also the prophet par excellence and a quasi-priestly figure involved in offering sacrifices and setting up the priestly complex, the tabernacle. There's virtually nothing in terms of national leadership that Moses doesn't do. And, of course, he's also a person, a family man. Now, no one individual could possibly have done all that.

      LMAO! – which is why its folklore. LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 4:59 pm |
    • really?

      You still did not answer the qiestion about Moses, what qualification/skills did he possess to be able to cross the sea?
      Was he a scientist? was he a Mathematician?

      Oh., btw, interesting that you say he was a great negotiator, actually when God called him to be the deliverer for the people of Israel he actually said he was not qualified because he had speech impediments? do you know what God told him?

      The point of this whole discussion is so that you understand clearly that Moses was chosen by God, the entire Exodus is an amazing story of God's power and might in work.

      November 22, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
    • Chad

      Ummmmm "Again,what a marvellous coincidence that Group A safely walked across, while Group B drowned" "You didn't look at the article Brian provided did you, this type of phenomenon only lasts about an hour. 😉 What's fun about this is that what is written in the bible can be refuted, which is why a god couldn't have inspired the writing of it. LMAO! Pretty pathetic your god couldn't write either. LOL!

      =>so, if this phenomenon only lasts about an hour, why didn't pharaohs army just wait the hour and the resume pursuit?

      as I said before, what other options do you have than this? I'm not trying to construct a strawman, YOU TELL ME, what other option is there?
      – claim that they crossed during low tide, then try and explain how the pursuing army drowned at low tide
      – claim that they crossed during low tide and the pursuing army having chariots couldn't, then try and explain why the pursuing army didn't just wait 6 hours and catch the Israelite's (who were on foot).
      – claim some other natural phenomena like a tsunami occured, allowing the Israelites to cross and the pursuing army drowned in the wave, then try and explain how it was the Moses showed up on the shoreline at the exact right time to get across
      – claim the entire story is made up, then have to explain how a large group of people (the Israelites) suddenly appeared in Canaan and started taking over. Where did they come from? As well, would a group of people absolutely obsessed with accuracy in detail make it up?

      November 22, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
    • really?

      The crux of this whole discussion is it was neither science/math that helped with the deliverance of the Israelites. It was GOD's awesome power at work and he used Moses as the deliverer.

      November 22, 2011 at 5:18 pm |
    • really?

      sorry Chad, my last post was to wrap up my earlier discussion, didn't see your post inbetween.
      Over to you...-:)

      November 22, 2011 at 5:21 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "The point of this whole discussion is so that you understand clearly that Moses was chosen by God, the entire Exodus is an amazing story of God's power and might in work."

      The story of moses is like any other story in your bogus book. It's made up crap full of embellishment to sell you the concept of a god. By the way I was quoting a well know theologian about moses. LMAO! LOL! LOL!

      November 22, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • Chad

      Those folks claiming that Moses had just to many talents to have actually been a real person just have absolutely no clue what is written in the bible
      – moses didnt want to rescue Israel and argued against God selecting him for the job
      – moses stuttered and didnt want to talk in public and didnt think that Pharaoh would believe him. God had to allow Moses half brother Aaron go along as a mouth piece
      – moses was repeatedly frustrated with the way God was delivering the Israelites to the point when he actually (essentially – I'm paraphrasing) said to God "Look, I'm getting sick and tired of this, if You are with us, You need to do more"
      – moses didnt know HOW to govern a large group of people with delegation and had to get advice from his father in law or he would have crumbled under the pressure
      – moses didnt lead israel into battle so it cant be claimed he was any great commander, Joshua did that.

      in short, moses was nothing special, had no special talents, was no great orator or leader or military commander. Moses was very human, the biblical account relates problems that he, being human, had. Very real problems that ring authentic were you or I in that situation.

      God picked moses to display Gods power, not because He was confident Moses could do the job on his own.

      November 22, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "so, if this phenomenon only lasts about an hour, why didn't pharaohs army just wait the hour and the resume pursuit?"

      You must be related to fred, only reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest, then try twisting it into something you can defend. Hey...wait....Chuckles was right. Duh MORON – the hour is about the time of the sea parting in the article Brian provided. It's know wonder you buy the crap in the bible hook line and sinker you have poor reading comprehension skills. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 5:52 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad "so, if this phenomenon only lasts about an hour, why didn't pharaohs army just wait the hour and the resume pursuit?

      @Ummmmm " the hour is about the time of the sea parting in the article Brian provided. It's know wonder you buy the crap in the bible hook line and sinker you have poor reading comprehension skills. LMAO!

      @Chad "Ok fine you want to use that scenario. If there was a one time phenomenon that allowed a group of people to cross at a location of a large body of water (large enough such that Pharaohs army couldn't cross after this phenomenon ended), then explain how it is that Moses just happened to standing on the shores at the exact time this phenomenon occurred?

      November 22, 2011 at 6:05 pm |
    • fred

      Ummm
      You just admitted that your counter arguments to the account of Exodus make no sense. Thus you do not even have an argument. You also confirmed that the Bible is not folklore. You also agree it is an amazing story of Gods power if there was a God, a Moses and a Bible. We are making some progress today! Look out man hug coming!

      November 22, 2011 at 6:11 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      “Thus you do not even have an argument.” – LIE

      “You also confirmed that the Bible is not folklore.” – LIE

      “ You also agree it is an amazing story of Gods power if there was a God, a Moses and a Bible. We are making some progress today! Look out man hug coming! “- LIE

      Yes we are making progress of showing what a lair you are. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • fred

      Ummmmm
      Ok, let us start with the easy one you call it folklore and here is the Wiki (which has a natural bias in your direction) def: "Jewish mythology is generally the sacred and traditional narratives that help explain and symbolize the Jewish religion, whereas Jewish folklore consists of the folk tales and legends that existed in the general Jewish culture. There is very little early folklore distinct from the aggadah literature. However, mythology and folklore has survived and expanded among the Jewish people in all eras of its history.

      November 22, 2011 at 6:43 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "@Chad "so, if this phenomenon only lasts about an hour, why didn't pharaohs army just wait the hour and the resume pursuit?

      @Ummmmm " the hour is about the time of the sea parting in the article Brian provided. It's know wonder you buy the crap in the bible hook line and sinker you have poor reading comprehension skills. LMAO!

      @Chad "Ok fine you want to use that scenario. If there was a one time phenomenon that allowed a group of people to cross at a location of a large body of water (large enough such that Pharaohs army couldn't cross after this phenomenon ended), then explain how it is that Moses just happened to standing on the shores at the exact time this phenomenon occurred?"

      Hey look chad is being a parrot just like H.S. is, this has got to be a christian thing. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 6:49 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Ok, let us start with the easy one you call it folklore "

      LMAO! Try the dictionary fred, again we are playing the definition game now.... "a body of widely held but false or unsubstantiated beliefs. "

      November 22, 2011 at 6:52 pm |
    • fred

      Ummm
      You are correct! You take the dictionary source as more valid than Wiki without question. Remember that next time you use a source 3,000 years removed from the event or has a bias against the Bible when making a case. Almost all the supposed lies and contradictions you claim in the Bible actually are based on incomplete information or bias material. Granted there are some translation issues but none that effect the core doctrines of God and His people.

      November 22, 2011 at 7:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Bias material", freddy? Fabric is cut on the bias, ferd. It's BIASED.

      Except it isn't. It simply doesn't support your beliefs.

      November 22, 2011 at 7:17 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "Remember that next time you use a source 3,000 years removed from the event or has a bias against the Bible when making a case. Almost all the supposed lies and contradictions you claim in the Bible actually are based on incomplete information or bias material. Granted there are some translation issues but none that effect the core doctrines of God and His people."

      Your bible is a work of fiction, the burden is on you to prove that 1 your god actually exists and two what is written actually happen. Just because it has a few historical references in it doesn't make it true – that's the point, especially since many of the "miracles" can now be debunked through science. LMAO!

      November 22, 2011 at 7:17 pm |
    • fred

      Ummm
      You your self agreed that “ it is an amazing story of Gods power if there was a God, and a Moses ". Now that you dissagree with it tell me what is the problem (you did not use capital G or B I do that so we are clear as whom we are speaking about). I think most atheists would not have a problem with your statement"

      November 22, 2011 at 7:19 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "You your self agreed that “ it is an amazing story of Gods power if there was a God, and a Moses ". Now that you dissagree with it tell me what is the problem (you did not use capital G or B "

      WOW! Learn to read moron – you need to seriously work on your reading comprehension skills – I even joked I was quoting a theologian! DUH! Have fun celebrating winter solstice on dec. 25th. 😉

      November 22, 2011 at 7:27 pm |
    • fred

      Ummm
      Yes, our Christmas has some strange roots that go well beyond the tree and most likely are not rooted in the tree of life but, most likely in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That same force that broke the unity between God and man is alive and active in Christmas celebrations over the years. To think what the Pope did to poor Jewish communities in the name of Christmas ticks me off even today.
      It is Gods way to allow us to show the true nature of who we really are. No doubt about what most of will say if there is God that holds us accountable for our thoughts and actions

      November 22, 2011 at 8:01 pm |
    • Ummmm

      "It is Gods way to allow us to show the true nature of who we really are. No doubt about what most of will say if there is God that holds us accountable for our thoughts and actions"

      The point is fred is that it has been man all along, no god. We have been holding ourselves accountable for our thoughts and actions. If we as a society would actually realize that then we could focus on solving some of our major issues in this world such as starvation, destruction of earth's natural resources, driving animals to extinction because of our stupidity and greed. We have the capability within ourselves to do this, to bring about world peace but what it will take is working TOGETHER. All religion has done is tear us apart over who is right and who is wrong. We don't need a god to fix what is broken within our own communities, even the world, we need to become one united global community striving for what is best for everyone and not simply a few. The best place to start this is looking at yourself, the choices you are making in the products you buy, the votes you cast, the places you give too. Take a good look at your choices and next time you go to buy something ask yourself is this the best choice to bring about world peace and end starvation in this world. It’s Thanksgiving tomorrow why don’t you open your home to a homeless person in your neighborhood and offer them clean clothes, a shower and a good meal, then watch what happens.

      November 23, 2011 at 10:41 am |
    • fred

      Ummmm
      Very true I agree with most everything you say. A little caution on the homless. Where I live the majority of homeless have mental issues some very serious. A few that I help continue to go off their meds which makes them very dangereous. Those with mental issues typically are only of harm to themselves and could use the supervision and a secure home.

      The story line of the Bible points us to your conclusion that it is up to man. Man was given this earth and told to care for it and all living things God has created. We fail at this in the majority of accounts as given in the Bible and all other secular history. Since creation God is telling man to do the wonderful caring things you suggest. Just as man rejects God and Gods specific guidance man rejects what you can reasonably see as the solution to our problems. Jesus said this is not possible with man but all things are possible with God. As we look around it is very true. Religion is not the problem man is the problem.
      Clearly if anyone could come up with a non god based system to get our human act together it would have happened by now. We know how to remove the majority of suffering on our planet but, it will not happen. Both good and evil exist. It is nice to think it away or blame religion for the evil in the world but, religion is just another tool in the hands of those who would missuse it. This natural tendency for man to slip into his worse behavior argues in favor of our need for a redeemer.

      November 23, 2011 at 1:09 pm |
    • Ummmmmm

      “but all things are possible with God.”

      History of man has proven that statement is not true and it’s because of a belief in a god that the world is such a mess, full of hostility towards those that don’t believe as you. What you are NOT getting is that belief in a god is not necessary in order to achieve world peace and a global community of respect.

      November 23, 2011 at 1:22 pm |
    • fred

      Now, I will give you the point that many people have harmed one another over their beliefs but, it does not matter if those beliefs are about “god” or other beliefs. The Bible said the children of Abraham (Isaac and Ishmael) will kick at each other until the end of times and 3,400 years latter Jews (Isaac descendants) and Arabs (Ishmael Muslims) are still going at it. Do you actually believe that if we toss all known thoughts of god out the window things would be any different? Are you saying that a world of atheists would be one big group hug? This goes against common sense. This goes against all history. It argues against Darwinism. Man is the cause of chaos in our world not God. Lust and desire for what is not yours will not just go away just because you’re an atheist.

      November 23, 2011 at 2:16 pm |
    • hippypoet

      yeah, right, well – according to the Abraham story, he didn't have 2 children but 8.... fred, you should know better! tisk tisk!

      November 23, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      “Man is the cause of chaos in our world not God. Lust and desire for what is not yours will not just go away just because you’re an atheist.”

      What you don’t get about humanity is we can change ourselves for the better through education. The old saying prejudice and hate is built on the foundation of ignorance rings true throughout all issue regarding chaos. By building a world where ALL people have access to the basic necessities for living life on this planet it could bring about world peace. If you truly understood your community you would know the whole reason gangs get a foot hold is because young children are looking for love and a sense of belonging. They usually don’t have many options. If we educated people on why these type of human behaviors are caused, then solutions can be found. Leaders in the communities step up by providing solutions to help these young people. The proof is in those communities that have successfully battled gangs and won by providing good alternatives for our youth. No, this is not going to happen overnight but a great place to start is to believe in ourselves, all of us, because let’s face it a belief in a false god isn’t going to do it. Please note your negative attitude towards atheists and mankind in general because of our belief in a good. -“ Man is the cause of chaos in our world not God. Lust and desire for what is not yours will not just go away just because you’re an atheist.” - The entire world is not in chaos and most of us don’t lust and desire what is not ours. 😉 By the way maybe you should stop watching so much news, spend more time in your community. Plus, aren't you a family man? Why are you spending so much time on here instead of with them?

      November 23, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      "because of our belief in a good."

      Crap that was supposed to be your belief in a god. I typed too fast.

      November 23, 2011 at 2:40 pm |
    • fred

      Hippy,
      Ya made me dust off my Bible ! I was focused on the trouble of the twos in the Bible Adam & Eve, The two Trees, Isaac & Ishmael, Jacob & Esau.........right up to the two criminals on cross with Jesus. Interesting that you mention it though, 8 for Abraham and 8 on the boat with Noah and 8 candles in the Minorah..........If I get a chance I'll need to take a peak and see whats up with the 8's.

      November 23, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • fred

      Ummmm
      Sorry if I give the impression I hold a negative att-itude towards atheists. That is not the case. In the example I used “atheist” instead of saying someone that believes there is no God. There are good atheists and good Christians and vice versa which is why I contend the problem is with man not God. I do not have a negative att-itude towards man because of religion but more likely the result of an abusive childhood. Perhaps that too was a blessing that rang a bell when Jesus said “no one is good but God”. Good observation though, my att-itude is negative towards man. On the other hand it gives me great comfort in the hope that Christ brings and the assurance from Christ that there such a thing as justice. I understand what mankind does to Christ and other innocent children on perhaps a too personal of a level. The place you speak of can only happen in a new heaven and earth. My peace comes from looking forward to that day. In the meantime I stumble across people here and there that have goodness about them along with others that do not. In either case religion is not necessarily the cause.

      As to education making us a better more loving people I do not think history reflects that. One example would be the “safe $ex” public education program has resulted in greater numbers of STD’s and abortions than before the champagne was launched.

      November 23, 2011 at 5:21 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      Fred it’s interesting that you admit to your negative outlook towards man, I guess your christs teaching about forgiveness and love fell on a broken heart that likes to hold onto pain. You don’t need a god to believe in yourself and heal your heart, what you need to learn is the true meaning of love. That is the foundation for healing this planet, the education of the power of love, love of self, love for those that are less fortunate than us. You cannot begin to love others if you don’t first love yourself. Your outlook towards your fellow man shows you lack that self-love. Your god won’t give you that since that is something you have to find within yourself. As long as you continue to give into a negative outlook, the more you infect your heart of your true potential to love, no god needed for that.

      November 28, 2011 at 11:29 am |
    • fred

      Ummmm
      What I know about love comes from the Bible and I am aware we (man) cannot achieve that level. You have read the Bible so you know that Christ revealed the love of God that none should perish but all experience that love through Christ for eternity. That is easy to say but, difficult in action and experience. I looked hard into how is what the God of old did considered loving. Then I realized I neither understood love or God and that is a growing process.
      God was easier to wrap my head around since I know my intelligence, in comparison, would be akin to a mouse in a cage at a biohazard research facility looking up at a scientist. I can justify what God is doing and see the “love” angle of bringing out of this existence a small group of tested souls that have this “love” as part of who they are. That would be the eternal utopia you mention. Gods plan for this new heaven and earth is already in progress.
      That eternal utopia is not here and cannot be because evil exists. In the beginning God separated light from dark, good and evil. The two trees in the Garden were separate. God knows how to keep them separate man does not. This is why God is a Holy God and will not be touched by sin. Man does not have that capacity and needed relationship with God to remain without sin. Man touched evil and cannot un know what he now knows and is no longer in unity with the creator. Jesus is the only way to reestablish that original unity, not an earth bound self help program. I families cannot love one another and avoid conflicts how can the best of Nations ever hope to arrive in the land of Zen.

      November 28, 2011 at 12:20 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      “God knows how to keep them separate man does not.”

      That’s a lie you have to tell yourself in order to maintain your personal faith but humans do know the difference, our history has made sure we learned that lesson. There was no need for a god to understand what is right and wrong, we already have determined much of that for ourselves. The great thing is as we educate ourselves it will evolve until we ALL understand it to bring about peace on this earth. We are already seeing it as the oppressed around the world are slowly gaining their voices. There is no god that created evil – it’s been part of our learning process. What you have to do is look back at how the definitions of evil and good have changed over time. The concept of Jesus will not be the original unity on this planet the proof is in other religions that preach non-violence without believing in him. The ONLY way to unify our planet is through love – that is one thing all human beings can understand or be taught and it has to be at the foundation, there is no god needed for that.

      You should consider seeing a shrink.

      November 28, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
  2. Martin

    Tommy- stop stalking/harassing Chad, we will report you.

    November 21, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Who's "we", Marty Farty? You have a mouse in yer pocket?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:14 pm |
    • mordecai

      nobody gives a rat's ass one way or the other. tommy boy is just filling up space and looking like a kid with a chip on his shoulder.
      not that i like chad who is an idiot, but tomtoms attacks are quite lame. it could very well be an imposter tomtom doing all this.

      November 21, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      The "threat" of "we will report you" is a total hoot. Will you? Pretty please?

      What, are you still wearing tutus, ballerina?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yeah, mordecai, you're a real threat, ain't ya?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:16 pm |
  3. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Chad is unable to answer the questions about his assumptions. I wonder why. If his god is omnipotent, why doesn't his god arm him with an intellect greater than that of Adam's housecat?

    Really, Chad, you are feeble.

    November 21, 2011 at 7:08 pm |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Chad is unable to answer questions put to him with anything but plati-tudes; therefore, I must conclude that his 'god' is a sham. If Chad's god were real, Chad would be able to do more than cut and paste the same drivel he's already posted. His god would have given him a verbal sword and armor to battle the unbelievers.

    Instead, his god gave him nothing but a limp member.

    November 21, 2011 at 7:06 pm |
    • TL

      Words are like swords when used as weapons. It is not a lack of will that keeps some silent, but rather the opposite.

      November 21, 2011 at 11:23 pm |
    • TL

      @TTPS

      Words are like swords when used as weapons. Choosing silence is not a lack of will, but rather the opposite. It is often harder to sheath the sword than to draw it.

      November 21, 2011 at 11:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chard doesn't HAVE a sword, TL. He has posted assumptions that are not based on facts, and when questioned and asked to explain, simply cuts and pastes the same post.

      He can't answer the questions. He has no sword to sheathe.

      November 22, 2011 at 8:20 am |
  5. Sam

    Mary: I swear Joe! I don't know HOW it happened!
    Joe: It's a MIRACLE!!!

    November 21, 2011 at 5:53 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus
      November 21, 2011 at 6:06 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      sheep herder sneaking out the back door...

      November 21, 2011 at 6:09 pm |
  6. Laughing Jesus

    SAM, I tried three times to reply to your comment about really trying to read the bible. Each post was deleted as quickly as I posted it.

    Don't worry, you can have all those things and be a mean, dirty rotten SOB but still get to the fairyland floating in the clouds.

    All you need to do is say "sorry" to Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Now it doesn't matter what you did...you're in! See?

    November 21, 2011 at 5:53 pm |
    • Sam

      .....but, don't I have to actually believe that stuff, or can I just say it?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:55 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      Hmmm...good question. But if you're afraid of the all powerful mean judging vengeful god, then you will believe it when you ask for it...of so they say.

      Every christian I know is afraid of dying, but claim they will go to heaven when they die. They wail and moan and scream when a loved one dies, but according to their own fable, it was god's will and that person is now going to the fairyland floating in the sky.

      Now...where was I going here...ummm...EFF it just go have fun like crazy and don't forget to ask for forgiveness from Jesus before you die.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:06 pm |
  7. Sam

    "Is my fire going to be the exact same temperature as Adolph Hilter's, and Jack the Ripper's fires?"

    Is this an uncomfortable question? I know that a "yes" answer makes God look stupid, but that shouldn't bother you if you have "faith", should it?

    A simple, yes or no will do.

    November 21, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
  8. Sam

    i REALLY tried to read the Bible, but it didn't make any sense.

    I'd like to be a Christian, but I'm really confused.

    Can I drive a car, or must I drive a horse and buggy?
    Cam I marry my 13 year old cousin and her 12 year old sister?
    Are they allowed to cut their hair?
    Can I cut my sideburns?
    Are snakes required?
    What should I do if I see the image of Jesus in some tree bark?
    What should I do if my statue starts bleeding?
    Can I take my children to the doctor?
    Should I beieve in Bilolgy?
    Shoud I believe in Geology?
    Should I believe in Astronomy?
    Should I worship on Saturday or Sunday?
    Should I take a vow or poverty, or does God want me to be prosperous.
    Does God really want me to have the best parking spot?
    Should I give my money to the Vatican or Joel Osteen?
    Should I send money to televangelists so they can buy a Gulfstream Jet?

    How about math?

    November 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      Can I drive a car, or must I drive a horse and buggy? You can drive a car
      Cam I marry my 13 year old cousin and her 12 year old sister? no you must respect the laws Romans 14
      Are they allowed to cut their hair? They are, they are not Nazarine(sp?) or Corithians
      Can I cut my sideburns? Yes Same reason
      Are snakes required? That is not even a question
      What should I do if I see the image of Jesus in some tree bark? Well given that you have no image or description to compare it to, how would you know you saw an image of Jesus in some tree bark?
      What should I do if my statue starts bleeding? I would drop to my knees and probably crap myself given statues don't do this.
      Can I take my children to the doctor? Sure, it is called Common Grace
      Should I beieve in Bilolgy? Biology sure, but understand that order and design require a designer
      Shoud I believe in Geology? sure, but understand that order and design require a designer

      Should I believe in Astronomy? Yes there are other stars and planets. Just don't confuse theory with truth
      Should I worship on Saturday or Sunday? And Monday, Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday
      Should I take a vow or poverty, or does God want me to be prosperous? Good question, ask and you will find, either way be generous to your fellow man James 2
      Does God really want me to have the best parking spot? No, actually it clearly states for you to take the lowly position unless given the best parking spot. Luke 14:7-11
      Should I give my money to the Vatican or Joel Osteen? Again ask, but I would focus on your neighbor and community
      Should I send money to televangelists so they can buy a Gulfstream Jet? No

      How about math? How about math, aren't those some precise calculations in the building of Arks, temples and the ark of the covenent

      November 21, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
    • Observer

      Mike from CT,

      How about math? Should we use 3 for pi in equations since the Bible says it is?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:13 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      This just made me have an amazing new idea – Magic 8 God for christians! At least when they ask a question they will receive an answer.

      November 21, 2011 at 10:11 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Awkward, I really like the thought that they have to spin Magic 8 God™ every time they need a new answer.

      November 21, 2011 at 10:33 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      Observer, if you are going to apply that type of scrutiny to everything in your life the way you do 1 kings... good luck to you. You will never get anything done in your life.

      "Hey Observer, how far do you live from the mall?" random Person
      "3 miles" Observer said
      "LIAR you live 3.14159 MILES... how dare you deceive me, you should rot in jail for your LIES... how dare you" random Person

      Yeah you see how that can never work and you are applying linguistic constraints that you would never use.

      November 22, 2011 at 9:02 am |
    • Observer

      Mike from CT,

      – I Kings 7:23 “And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circu-mference.”

      As you can see, there's no "rounding" in the numbers. A diameter of 10 (as verified by the radius of 5) gives a circu-mference of almost 31 1/2, not 30.

      Based on the math of the Bible, we would have no space program or anything else depending on reliable math.

      "Yeah you see how that can never work and you are applying linguistic constraints that you would never use."

      November 22, 2011 at 9:35 am |
    • Gabriel

      Mike from CT-That was a fantastic response!

      November 22, 2011 at 12:31 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      The "rounding" comes in the translation of the word round

      " it was completely round." It was Complete is not in the Hebrew text. The word complete only exist in the NKJV not the KJV, ESV, NASB and several other versions

      The word round is the word similar to agol in Hebrew pronunciations. Can't do the proper inflections here. It is strongs word H5696. Which only exist in 1 Kings.

      Now do me this exercise for yourself. Measure a line 5 inches on a paper in one direction, and freehand cut out a circular, (round) shape. Then use very precise instruments and see if the circ-umference is exactly 15.70795 to the fifth decimal place.

      Hopefully this hands on example will show that approximations in language does not equal inerrancy.

      I really want to include a link but can't seem to get it through the censor

      November 22, 2011 at 12:54 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      media.thevillagechurch.net/bible-studies/audio/200901200630HVWC21ATAAA_MattChandler_MBSDwellDeepPt3-Inerrancy.mp3

      Specifically around min 15

      November 22, 2011 at 12:56 pm |
    • Observer

      Mike from CT,

      You are trying to argue that "round" and "rounded" are the same word and they obviously are not. An ellipse is rounded, but it is neither a "circle" nor "round". The decimal example you used is useless. The discussion here is whether the circ-umference is 30 inches or more than 31.

      Since you have stated that the NKJV Bible is wrong in its translation, which is the TRUE Bible?

      November 22, 2011 at 1:14 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      I was arguing that the word round does not (and can not) mean a perfect circle, the only time P-i comes into play

      If you want to argue 30 over 31 go ahead, but even the most frugal person does not argue three percent
      But if we must for the glory then so be it. Again your assumtion is a perfect circle?
      Since you did not measure this circle why do you doubt 30.
      It's not like they said it was 5, to which then you can say, well that is more of a square then round.

      I said the NKJV, added three words for expl-aination to the reader.
      If there is ever a cause for concern in any translated doc-ument then you would go back to the source.
      Since this is a OT passage that would be Hebrew.

      November 22, 2011 at 1:33 pm |
    • fred

      Observer with a big O
      I assume you are digging deep here in an effort to disprove the Bible as a scientific tool. Seek and you shall find: Big O has found lies and falshood while Mike sees the glory of God. The Bible is more about perspective than math and Big O you seem to have used your free will to select a negative world secular view and Mike is looking through the eyes of hope in a promise from our Divine Creator.
      The Bible is all about mans relationship with God and each other that produces certain results. These results are proven over and over again and are true in all respects. Math is side show from the deceptor in this case. Go back to the building of Solomons palace in 1Kings 7:23. The numbers used 3 (stands for God, trinity, holy etc.) and 10 (10 commandments, 10 points of creation) had biblical meaning to the builders and the story. Even the capacity of 12,000 gallons is a biblical number 10X10X10X12 note 3 sets of 10 and 12 (number of apostles, tribes of Israel, etc).
      It is Bible talk in a form used by gods people not todays high school student. You should be amazed how God was always at the front of the builders minds which is the way is supposed to be when you walk with God.

      November 22, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • Observer

      Mike from CT,
      "I was arguing that the word round does not (and can not) mean a perfect circle,"

      Definition of "ROUND". Noun: A circular piece of a particular substance.

      There are no IMPERFECT circles. Everything is either a (perfect) circle or else it is NOT a circle.

      By definition, a circle is the loci of all points at a fixed distance from another point.

      November 22, 2011 at 1:58 pm |
    • Mike from ct

      There are only imperfect things we lump in as circles. There is no tool to date that can draw a perfect circle. And you would agree that 2r*p-i only applies to circles. But we are way off base now since we both agree that the word in 1 kings is not circle.

      November 22, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
    • Observer

      Mike from ct,
      "There are only imperfect things we lump in as circles. There is no tool to date that can draw a perfect circle"

      Meaningless argument. No one can make a "number" either.

      What we are in agreement about is that NKJV is wrong. The object described in there cannot exist. That was my original point.

      November 22, 2011 at 7:27 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      Observer, I have enjoyed this conversation but please don't ruin it by changing the point the point was not originally

      "What we are in agreement about is that NKJV is wrong. The object described in there cannot exist. That was my original point."

      But was that God id not know the correct value of PI

      But if you want to go down that way I believe you still have a gap between complete round = perfect circle.

      November 23, 2011 at 9:21 am |
  9. Laughing Jesus

    So which is more fun, having a national holiday where we lie to children about a fat man in a red suit dropping toys to good girls and boy on the birthday of Jesus (historically we're fairly certain that is not his birthday)...where in good christians pick one day out of the year to be 'giving'; or...the joy and excitement of watching the kiddies eat candy eggs that a chocolate bunny crapped out?

    Either way, Jesus would be rolling under his pile of rocks...whatever bones were not eaten by wolves or wild dogs.

    Now no christian I know is willing to admit that these wonderful events as celebrated today are mixtures of the christian fable and other older pagan rituals...but they are...

    November 21, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
    • Sam

      I like the Santa story better. I'ts fun and positive, and you tell them the truth before they grow up.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:09 pm |
    • J.W

      It isn't the way that they are celebrated being pagan that Christians argue against. It is that the beliefs themselves are pagan that Christians do not believe.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
    • Sam

      Happy HOLIDAYS!

      November 21, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
    • Ummmm

      "It is that the beliefs themselves are pagan that Christians do not believe."

      Yeah my favorite one is Jesus is actually born around September but it was written as Winter Solstice to satisfy the pagans of that time period. The most hysterical thing I've read on these blogs was oh....we are actually celebrating christs conception. LMAO! Yeah, that's why all the songs and story books are written with the words the day jesus was born....not conceived. The excuses modern day christians come up with for a book of fiction is hysterical. Keep lying to yourselves our society needs these mindless buffoons otherwise the mental wards would be full of really depressed people.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • J.W

      What? I have never heard anyone say he was born in September. I have never heard anyone say exactly when he was born.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:29 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      Ummmm has a valid point. The December holiday was based originally on Nordic pagan rituals that were born of necessity – winter was harsh so you stocked up on food, hung out inside with the family and ate your way through the winter. They were going by the Solstice – not the fable.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:34 pm |
    • Ummmm

      "I have never heard anyone say he was born in September. I have never heard anyone say exactly when he was born."

      The fun begins when you see christians actually argue christ was born on Sept. 11th. LOL! ...Is your head spinning now? The argument can be made for that date if you look. Just keep in mind that as you celebrate xmas it has so many pagan rituals today, the christmas tree, the yule log, Santa Claus, mistletoe, etc.... LMAO

      Luke 2:8 speaks about the shepherds near Bethlehem who were in the fields, watching their flocks at night. Shepherds in that region did not keep their sheep out at night during the Winter because it was cold and sometimes even snowy, but they did keep them in the fields during the Fall, after the end-of-Summer harvest. At that time, the sheep could eat the stalks of grain left over after the harvest, and they would then fertilize the ground prior to the late Fall planting.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:48 pm |
  10. Reality

    From: Will the Real Jesus Stand Up?

    > > A Debate Between William Lane Craig
    > > and John Dominic Crossan
    > >
    > > By: Ron Maness
    > >
    > > edited by
    > > Paul Copan
    > >
    > > Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1998, 179 pages

    Crossan noted:
    > >
    > > "When I look a Buddhist friend in the face, I cannot say with
    > > integrity, "Our story about Jesus' virginal birth is true and
    > > factual. Your story that when the Buddha came out of his
    mother's
    > > womb, he was walking, talking, teaching and preaching (which I
    must
    > > admit is even better than our story)-that's a myth. We have
    the
    > > truth; you have a lie." I don't think that can be said any
    longer,
    > > for our insistence that our faith is a fact and that others'
    faith
    > > is a lie is, I think, a cancer that eats at the heart of
    > > Christianity" (page 39).

    November 21, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      http://www.bringyou.to/CraigCrossanDebate.mp3

      Did you even listen to it, or research how Crossan did in the debate. Come on you have 2 hours to spare.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      We have
      the
      > > truth; you have a lie." I don't think that can be said any
      longer,
      > > for our insistence that our faith is a fact and that others'
      faith
      > > is a lie is

      again (for others) you forgot to address the issue that if you believe your idol crossan then the same rules would apply to your belief system and then you have no biases to say Christianity is a lie and you correct, rot with hypocrisy

      November 21, 2011 at 6:04 pm |
    • Reality

      Only for the those interested in a religious update:

      1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

      “New Torah For Modern Minds

      Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “

      2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

      The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

      earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

      For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

      Current RCC problems:

      Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

      2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

      Current problems:
      Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

      3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

      This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.

      And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

      Current crises:

      The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

      5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

      The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

      Current problems:

      The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.

      6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

      "However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

      Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

      Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

      Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!

      November 22, 2011 at 12:04 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Using your standard...

      since there is only one source of this,ny times article, on the web and not found in any other report it would be deemed false.

      Still waiting for you to explain which "only about 30% of Jesus" is the REAL parts?

      November 22, 2011 at 9:05 am |
  11. Sam

    What should I do if my statue starts bleeding. I'm trying to be proactive.

    November 21, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • Speak to Me Bright Boy

      Ok Sam!

      Since you're very learnt about "Intelligent Design"; How did "INTELLIGENT Design" come into existence?

      November 21, 2011 at 4:24 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      "Intelligent design" is a Creationist rationalization, made up to put a veneer of "scientific" jargon over literalist interpretations of mythology.
      The Center for Science and Culture (sponsored by the Discovery Inst.itute) – who are the most vocal supporters of ID – openly admit that their goal isn't to teach what they think is fact. An internal doc.ument leaked in 1999 described the Discovery group's objective in pushing for creationism to be taught in schools as "to defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies". They want to use Intelligent Design as a "wedge" to separate science from its allegiance to "atheistic naturalism".

      Intelligent design comes from Believers' fears that teaching FACTS to children will drive them away from religion.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:31 pm |
    • Speak to Me Bright Boy

      So Doc, What are you? Are you saying that there is nothing in the Universe Intelligently designed? Help me out here buddy.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • Speak to Me Bright Boy

      Doc! If your answer is NO; then you're totally contradicting your Atheist beliefs since Science has proven over and over that so far all they have discovered is intelligently designed.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:41 pm |
    • ThinkForYourself

      "Doc! If your answer is NO; then you're totally contradicting your Atheist beliefs since Science has proven over and over that so far all they have discovered is intelligently designed."

      I thought that lying was opposed to the basic morals of nearly every world religion.

      Let me ask you this – if we are "intelligently" designed, then why would we have been given an organ that has little to no beneficial value, is entirely unnecessary, and occasionally kills? You designer is either not intelligent or is sadistic. Given the other oddities and inefficiencies of the human body, I'd probably go with not all that intelligent.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:46 pm |
    • Get Real

      Speak to Me Bright Boy,

      ...and why do males have nip-ples?

      November 21, 2011 at 4:48 pm |
    • ThinkForYourself

      " How did "INTELLIGENT Design" come into existence?"

      That's an easy one. People recognized that the creation mythology in the bible was ridiculous and there wasn't any way to ever teach such a thing as fact in schools unless we wanted to dumb ourselves down back into a third world country. But people also can't, for a variety of reasons, accept the clear and convincing evidence of evolution so they invented intelligent design as a way to sneak god into public schools and undermine solid science. These people, by the way, have no idea what the term 'falsifiable hypothesis' is and thus really should have ever made it beyond 6th grade science.

      It's really just another take on "I can't explain it, so god it'. Of course, as we have seen throughout history the god of the gaps is continually shrinking.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
    • J.W

      Females are obviously more attractive than males. God intelligently designed females, but he made a mistake on males.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:53 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      Milk it for all the money you can get for it. I'm sure the Catholic Church will want to pay you millions to make it disappear...

      November 21, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
    • Speak to Me Bright Boy

      I have to Think for you,

      The problem is you do not take time to read the bible. Im kinda tired a thinking for u. The flesh dies because of sin. I'll refer you to Genesis 3:3 & Romans 6:23. If you don't know how to use a bible, then google it.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
    • ThinkForYourself

      "The flesh dies because of sin. I'll refer you to Genesis 3:3 & Romans 6:23. If you don't know how to use a bible, then google it."

      Are you seriously suggesting that we have an appendix because Adam and Eve sinned? Wow. Please don't bother thinking for me when you clearly can't use your own brain.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
    • Sam

      i REALLY tried to read the Bible, but it didn't make any sense.

      I'd like to be a Christian, but I'm really confused.

      Can I drive a car, or must I drive a horse and buggy?
      Cam I marry my 13 year old cousin and her 12 year old sister?
      Are they allowed to cut their hair?
      Can I cut my sideburns?
      Are snakes required?
      What should I do if I see the image of Jesus in some tree bark?
      What should I do if my statue starts bleeding?
      Can I take my children to the doctor?
      Should I beieve in Bilolgy?
      Shoud I believe in Geology?
      Should I believe in Astronomy?
      Should I worship on Saturday or Sunday?
      Should I take a vow or poverty, or does God want me to be prosperous.
      Does God really want me to have the best parking spot?
      Should I give my money to the Vatican or Joel Osteen?
      Should I send money to televangelists so they can buy a Gulfstream Jet?

      How about math?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • Sam

      Females are obviously more attractive than males.""

      Does this mean that it's ok to be lesbian?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:35 pm |
    • J.W

      Yeah it is fine with me

      November 21, 2011 at 5:47 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      Can I drive a car, or must I drive a horse and buggy? You can drive a car
      Cam I marry my 13 year old cousin and her 12 year old sister? no you must respect the laws Romans 14
      Are they allowed to cut their hair? They are, they are not Nazarine(sp?) or Corithians
      Can I cut my sideburns? Yes Same reason
      Are snakes required? That is not even a question
      What should I do if I see the image of Jesus in some tree bark? Well given that you have no image or description to compare it to, how would you know you saw an image of Jesus in some tree bark?
      What should I do if my statue starts bleeding? I would drop to my knees and probably crap myself given statues don't do this.
      Can I take my children to the doctor? Sure, it is called Common Grace
      Should I beieve in Bilolgy? Biology sure, but understand that order and design require a designer
      Shoud I believe in Geology? sure, but understand that order and design require a designer

      Should I believe in Astronomy? Yes there are other stars and planets. Just don't confuse theory with truth
      Should I worship on Saturday or Sunday? And Monday, Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday
      Should I take a vow or poverty, or does God want me to be prosperous? Good question, ask and you will find, either way be generous to your fellow man James 2
      Does God really want me to have the best parking spot? No, actually it clearly states for you to take the lowly position unless given the best parking spot. Luke 14:7-11
      Should I give my money to the Vatican or Joel Osteen? Again ask, but I would focus on your neighbor and community
      Should I send money to televangelists so they can buy a Gulfstream Jet? No

      How about math? How about math, aren't those some precise calculations in the building of Arks, temples and the ark of the covenent

      November 21, 2011 at 6:05 pm |
    • Bob

      Hey, Sam, that Christian god seems to like bleeding, even demanding bloody animal sacrifice, so I suppose you can't look there for help if your statue springs a blood-y leak.

      November 21, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
    • Observer

      Mike from CT,

      So what about math? Should we use 3 for pi in equations since the Bible says it is?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:40 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Mike from CT
      That's the most honest and succinct answer I've yet to encounter from a Christian on this board.
      I hope your eloquent brevity becomes an example to others!

      November 21, 2011 at 10:37 pm |
    • Chad

      Mike, well said fella!

      November 21, 2011 at 11:05 pm |
  12. Sam

    So, who did God sacrifice his only son TO? .and what did that actually accomplish? He rose from the dead and went to Heaven anyway, so where's the big "sacrifice", exactly? Is it just coincidence that other, earlier religions "sacrificed" things, too?

    How exactly did Jesus' death on the cross, "save" ME, and why was that necessary? I can only get to heaven through Jesus. Why? Is his ego that freaking big?

    If I, as non-Christian, live a good life. Feed and clothe the poor. Give away all my money, and spend my life helping others, I will go to Hell anyway. Is my fire just as hot as that of a serial killer's fire?

    I have to conclude that the "theory" of "intelligent Design", is not referring to the Christian God, because He's not "intelligent".

    November 21, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
    • Freewill Choices

      The choice to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior is totally yours. If I were you I would diligently seek to find the truth for myself. The first step is faith. Let me know if you are interested in knowing how to find faith.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • Sam

      Why would I choose to have faith in something that I find silly? Maybe if someone could give me logical, rational, answers to my questions (which you chose to ignore), I could find "faith".

      November 21, 2011 at 4:05 pm |
    • Freewill Choices

      It is idle to talk always of the alternative of reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all. If you are merely a sceptic, you must sooner or later ask yourself the question, “Why should anything go right; even observation and deduction? Why should not good logic be as misleading as bad logic? Are they not both movements in the brain of a bewildered ape?"

      G. K. Chesterton

      November 21, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
    • Speak to Me Bright Boy

      Ok Sam!

      Since you're very learnt about "Intelligent Design"; How did "INTELLIGENT Design" come come into existence?

      November 21, 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    • Sam

      Huh?

      Never mind. I'll just burn in Hell. Tell God you tried, sorta.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:25 pm |
    • Freewill Choices

      Sam-He knows how to get your attention, he probably will speak to you directly or probably he is going to use someone in your life to speak faith/hope and love into your life!!!

      November 21, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • Sam

      "Intelligent Design" came into existence as a way to inject Christianity into public school science classes. Fundamentalists were concerned that the theory of evolution contradicted the bible. For example according to the Bible, the earth is only 6,000 years old, therfore, the end of the universe could only be 6,000 light years away.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:56 pm |
    • Sam

      He's going to "speak" to me? What's he waiting for? I'm 58 and could die any minute. Does this mean I'm safe from death until he "speaks" to me? He won't let me die without giving me a chance, will he?

      November 21, 2011 at 4:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Martin/Chad make Heaven Sent look close to being sentient. Although neither of them have the balls HS did.

      November 21, 2011 at 9:01 pm |
  13. Sam

    Actually, Hitler is in heaven with Jesus. As he sat in his bunker with Eva, awaiting the Russian Army, he found Jesus (just like all death row inmates do), repented his sins and was forgiven and accepted into the Kingdom of Christ.

    The 6,000,000 Jews he murderd however, are burning in Hell for eternity because Jesus loves them.

    November 21, 2011 at 3:39 pm |
    • jennay

      hitler in heaven? lol not likely... who is in heaven? u should read Revelations and start from there if you want information seek it... don't knock something you say you have no interest in.. be like me knocking circus performers.. i could care less and I find the need to have my input on the subject... you must be somewhat interested in the Christian religion then??

      November 21, 2011 at 4:46 pm |
    • Sam

      But, certainlhy possible, correct? Jesus forgives all sins, doesnt' he? You just need to have faith and ask, correct? So, conceivably, Hiter is in Heaven while his victims suffer in Hell for eternity.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • Sam

      And if Hitler is in Hell, his punishment is exaclty the same as the Jews he murdered, correct? Because his sin is not murdering 6 million Jews, it's not acceptiing Jesus as his "saviour".

      So, the 6 million Jews are suffering the exact same punishment as their muderer? That's correct, isn't it?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:03 pm |
    • Chad

      There is no criteria for accepting the atoning work of Jesus Christ.

      The only way to the Father is through the Son, there is no other way. The best man/woman that ever lived (other than Jesus himself) is not getting into heaven based on the merits of his activities here.

      Jews are special and have a special provision as Gods chosen people.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:07 pm |
    • Sam

      "The only way to the Father is through the Son, there is no other way."

      Why?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ah, Chard, there you are. Here, just in case you missed it:

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
      Chad says: 2. that's pretty straightforward:
      1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
      2. Objective moral values and duties do exist (evil exists)
      3. Therefor God exists

      You are making ridiculous assumptions that are not based on fact at all, Chad, and have explained nothing about how you conclude that if there are objective moral values that means God exists. How ridiculous! Why would that mean God exists?

      I know you won't bother to answer, because you have already dodged this question repeatedly.

      Really lame, Chardo.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:13 pm |
    • Sam

      Jews get to go to heaven even without accepting Jesus as their saviour?

      Doesnt' seem fair. Is my fire going to be the exact same temperature as Adolph Hilter's, and Jack the Ripper's fires?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      No fair, I want to be a Jew! If I can't have the default then God Failed! Chosen people...the Jew does not even believe Christ is the Son of God and they get the default to the fairy land? Your fable fails hard.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:20 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yeah, and you don't even get to run Hollywood!

      November 21, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • Chad

      @Sam "The only way to the Father is through the Son, there is no other way." Why?

      =>cause God is in charge, and He says so..

      November 21, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • Sam

      "Is my fire going to be the exact same temperature as Adolph Hilter's, and Jack the Ripper's fires?"

      Is this an uncomfortable question? I know that a "yes" answer makes God look stupid, but that shouldn't bother you if you have "faith", should it?

      A simple, yes or no will do.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
    • Sam

      "@Sam "The only way to the Father is through the Son, there is no other way." Why?

      =>cause God is in charge, and He says so..

      That's all you've got? Really? How do you EVER convert anyone to Christianity? Do you have to be on drugs to become a Christian? How did YOU become a Christian? Brainwashed from an early age by mommy and daddy?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:44 pm |
    • Chad

      Sam "That's all you've got? Really? How do you EVER convert anyone to Christianity? Do you have to be on drugs to become a Christian? How did YOU become a Christian? Brainwashed from an early age by mommy and daddy?"

      =>mom and dad were agnostics.
      It's a very powerful thing though, to realize that we live in a reality that was created by God, and that He is in charge of it.

      In a very real sense, NOT realizing it is the ultimate denial of reality.

      One can't argue that IF God DOES exist, then we would be insane not to acknowledge it. So, the question is, does He exist? Answer is YES.

      Why don't you believe in God? What evidence have you reviewed? Or are you just lumping the God of Abraham in with all the other gods and saying none of them are real?

      November 21, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "cause God is in charge and he says so." Chad is 15.

      November 21, 2011 at 5:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chad thinks people should just believe, whether or not the belief makes any sense to them or not.

      Kind of like Tinkerbelle. Clap, clap, clap!

      November 21, 2011 at 5:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "to realize we're in a reality created by God"? What makes you sure you are in a reality created by God?

      Nothing other than faith, Chad. That's all there is. The more you attempt to pretend there are actual facts and proof of your God, the worse your position becomes.

      There are no facts. There is no proof. If there were, everyone would know it and acknowledge it.

      Why can you simply not be honest and acknowledge that it is only on faith that one believes?

      November 21, 2011 at 6:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      SIlence is consent. Chad agrees.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:27 pm |
    • Sheesh

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son,
      "SIlence is consent. Chad agrees."

      I generally agree with your challenge to Chad, Tom; but you have given him exactly 24 minutes to respond... and you call that "silence"! C'mon.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:36 pm |
    • Chad

      1. The scientifically required necessity of an uncaused cause at the origin of the universe. The universe is expanding in all directions and cooling. Going backwards there was a point in time when the universe had infinite heat and density. Prior to this singularity there was nothing. Not “something”, nothing. Matter and time were created at that point of rapid expansion. By definition whatever caused this expansion could not have itself had a prior cause (the infinite regression problem). Whatever caused it must have always existed. That is what physicists call the “uncaused cause”

      If you dont want to believe in an uncaused cause, you are stuck with the problem of an infinite regression.

      2. The phenomenal preciseness of the “big bang” expansion which was required to allow stars/planets to form. The fact that space and time were created at that cosmic singularity. (And God said, "Let there be light"). It didn’t just randomly explode, rather it expanded in such a precise manner that an infinitesimal change would have rendered a universe where matter was so spread out no formation of stars could have possibly occurred.

      3. The fact that the universe obeys laws and that science by definition relies on that which it can not explain: "Science starts from the existence of those laws, can NOT EVER disprove God". – Leonard Mlodinow Co-author along with Stephen Hawkings of A Briefer History of Time.

      4. The fossil record which shows millions of years of stable species, then an explosion of necessarily mutations, all occurring at the precise necessary time required for complex organisms to develop, and ALL escaping fossilization
      “the sudden appearance of most species in the geologic record and the lack of evidence of substantial gradual change in most species—from their initial appearance until their extinction—has long been noted, including by Charles Darwin who appealed to the imperfection of the record as the favored explanation” – Wikipedia

      5. The historical evidence of Jesus Christ “Most critical historians agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jewish Rabbi who was regarded as a teacher and healer in Judaea,[18] that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and that he was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.[19] Critical Biblical scholars and historians have offered competing descriptions of Jesus as a self-described Messiah, as the leader of an apocalyptic movement, as an itinerant sage, as a charismatic healer, and as the founder of an independent religious movement.” –Wikipedia

      6. The historical fact that Jesus died and was buried in a tomb. Three days later that tomb was found to be empty, following that hundreds of people reported they witnessed the resurrected Jesus and were willing to go to their death saying that.

      7. The demonstrated historical accuracy of the biblical narrative in all accounts, the Gospel of Luke alone has hundreds of verified historical accuracies and has NO historical inaccuracy.

      The fact that we have a universal understanding of good and evil.
      – If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
      – Evil exists.
      – Therefore, objective moral values exist. (Some things are evil!)
      – Therefore, God exists.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      @Sheesh, after you read Chard's last post, get back to me with your judgment. I could wait a lifetime and still the moron couldn't answer with anything meaningful or honest.

      You must be new here. Chad's a troll.

      November 21, 2011 at 7:01 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Still waiting for Chad to show that 1)there are universally accepted moral absolutes; 2) that the presumed universal moral absolutes are proof that a god exists.

      When do you plan to get to that, Chard?

      November 21, 2011 at 7:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chad, you must have been the kid who thought "I'm rubber, you're glue" was the zenith of intellectual argument.

      November 21, 2011 at 7:21 pm |
    • Martin

      Looks like this Tommy Character is a Chad stalker.

      Chad-Beware!

      November 21, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Is that the best you can do Marty? Really?

      You're as lame as your idol, Chard. And probably less mentally competent. Which makes you a vegetable inferior to Swiss chard.

      Lamebrain. Get a clue, ya dweeb. Your idol has feet of clay.

      November 21, 2011 at 7:43 pm |
    • Martin

      Tommy take your meds, you need serious psychiatric help!

      November 21, 2011 at 7:47 pm |
    • Sue

      Looks like this Martin character is a Tom, Tom the Piper's Son stalker.

      November 21, 2011 at 8:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      He's just a Chard in Martin's clothing.

      November 21, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Come on, Chard, man up. Or are you going to continue to hide and let your sock-puppets speak for you?

      Would you Jesus be so cowardly? Wouldn't he stand up and show he had a pair?

      Ah, but that's the crux of the problem, isn't it? You don't have any.

      November 21, 2011 at 8:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hey, Sue, don't these two make you yearn for HS? Between Marty and Chardy, it's hard to find a pair, isn't it?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hey, check out Chad's sock puppets, Sue et al.

      Poor little Chad. He can't even fight his own battles on an anonymous site. He probably has trouble saying "no" to the Girl Scouts when they ask him to buy their cookies.

      November 21, 2011 at 9:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hey, Martin, how's Chad taste, anyway? Is he salty or sweet?

      November 21, 2011 at 9:24 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      If you need to compare tastes, Marty, ask mordecai for a sip of nectar. Maybe the two of you can compare notes.

      November 21, 2011 at 9:26 pm |
  14. Reality

    Just like the original:

    JC's family and friends had it right 2000 years ago ( Mark 3: 21 "And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself."

    Said passage is one of the few judged to be authentic by most contemporary NT scholars. e.g. See Professor Ludemann's conclusion in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 24 and p. 694

    Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.

    Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospel being mostly fiction.

    Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" (e.g. O. Ortega) are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European/Utah white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    November 21, 2011 at 3:34 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      http://www.bringyou.to/CraigCrossanDebate.mp3

      Funny how you don't think something is authentic unless it confirms your position.

      November 21, 2011 at 3:43 pm |
    • Reality

      More confirmation:

      Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection/Easter Con:

      From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

      Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

      To wit;

      From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

      "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
      Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

      Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

      Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

      The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

      Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

      "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
      http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

      The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

      Of course, we all know that angels are really mythical "pretty wingie talking thingies".

      With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

      An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

      p.4

      "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

      p.168. by Ted Peters:

      Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

      So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:40 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      2 hours that is all it would take, can you not spend 2 hours.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:07 pm |
  15. Speak to Me Bright Boy

    William Demuth:

    Give me three fundamental similarities that Nazism, KKK and Christianity share?

    November 21, 2011 at 3:04 pm |
    • Sam

      They're all three attractive to southern, redneck, hillbillies?

      November 21, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      A smug sense of superiority over those not like them.

      November 21, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • very simple

      They are all Christian-based ideologies.

      November 21, 2011 at 9:09 pm |
  16. I Found Him

    One day I took the biggest dump I'd ever seen. It clogged one of those industrial toilets. When I looked at it, I saw a face looking back at me, and it was angry. Later, when I was sleeping, the poo face came to me in my dreams and said, "how could you not believe? I am your God as it is written in the Fable..."

    Anxious to change my wicked ways and release God from my lower intestines, I sought out my doctor and asked if he could do exploratory surgery to look for God in my bowels. He said he could, but my insurance would not cover it.

    Since that day, years ago...He has been trapped in my lower intestines. But now here's the kicker...with Obama Care, He will be set free and the second coming will be upon us! And you taxpayers will pay for it! Therefore, everyone is saved!

    November 21, 2011 at 2:38 pm |
  17. the_truth_speaks

    The bible says in Philippians 1:15-17

    15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble ..........

    November 21, 2011 at 2:03 pm |
  18. jennay

    Jesus would never draw guns hiding around government buildings.. lol... nor would he ever get down on his knees and beg to Oprah!! when Jesus returns for real... the whole world will know of his coming... it wont be some sneaky shifty guy... lol check your bibles... pray with the Lord and he'll tell you whats what... some people today anyways.. this guy can hardly read his blurbs off his lil notebook there.. lol ... love how people always publicize the nuts when it comes to religion... no wonder why we lack so much faith today... been fed nothing but bull@#$% for years...

    November 21, 2011 at 1:25 pm |
    • Sam

      "love how people always publicize the nuts when it comes to religion... "

      How do we tell the difference?

      November 21, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • claybigsby

      "been fed nothing but bull@#$% for years..."

      yep that bs you speak of is written by man in the book you hold most sacred.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:05 pm |
  19. FornaCator

    I believe some of the Fable...that which is historically accurate and has corroborating literature from outside of the religious realm. Jesus was smart and decent, unlike the peoples around him and he died for that. I would say that someone in today's world would face something similar acting so radically against the idiots of the world.

    What is missing is all of the other writings of Jesus and the times of his life, that are buried under the Vatican and will never be released to the world. Too bad the scripture as known today are the hand picked volumes and not all of it was included.

    Ironically, the way in which Jesus was shunned by the masses this freak could be the 2nd coming and not one christian would ever believe it.

    I'm just going with the belief that all of the gods are real to those who worship them...thousands of gods...and the behavior of the believer is more important than anything else. I am sickened daily by the behavior of the religious pious sickos who are certain that I will burn in h3ll and they will be carted off to the fairy palace in the sky. Wanna bet?

    November 21, 2011 at 12:50 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      "Jesus was smart and decent"
      So then what do you do with the passage of the woman at the well when Jesus confirms he is the Christ. Or that He and the father are one and no one comes to the father except through Him

      Question: If the Vatican has these hidden volumes that never were seen, by what faith do you believe that they exist.
      If you are referring to the Consul at Nicaea, well that has long been debunked that the Bible was being assembled long before that with St. Irenaeus stating there are only 4 gospels as early as 160AD

      “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

      November 21, 2011 at 3:49 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      Mike in CT...really...get a grip. Jesus Christ was a real person who lived in that time and was crucified. That in no way makes your Fable correct.

      If I choose to look at historical Jesus and say he was cool, and he died for that, then you do not get to tell me that I can't do that.

      He failed so hard when he died so the idiots who were too cowardly to stand up and save him while he was alive had to cook up the mumbo jumbo BS.

      100% of the christians I know do not practice christianity anyway – they practice paulianity. Either case, I don't care. I'll be glad to talk face to face with your fake god when your rapture comes though. Bring it. Get some.

      Your horrible mean terrible god has some explaining to do.

      November 21, 2011 at 4:13 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      "If I choose to look at historical Jesus and say he was cool, " if you choose to then you would do it through the historical records, objectively. Please do.

      "100% of the christians I know do not practice christianity anyway" Funny how you object with the bible as your statements agree with it. This is the fundamental principle of Christianity, that no one has practiced it Romans 1, that is why we need a savior in Jesus Christ. You hit the nail on the head with that one.

      November 21, 2011 at 6:11 pm |
    • Laughing Jesus

      Mike, you do not know what I practice or how I live my life any more than you know if this nutbag is Jesus Christ. Stop judging me...WWJD?

      I could care less. I don't care if you believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny but those fairy tales are fed by your fable...

      November 21, 2011 at 6:25 pm |
    • Mike from ct

      LJ when did I judge you. I was commending you for having the correct answer. Maybe you should seek professional help on paranoia.

      November 21, 2011 at 8:41 pm |
  20. 99.5RT

    If you don't believe, etheir in God the Bible or both, SO BE IT. That is your will and choice. Why there's a need to mock, insult, ridicule and nullify something that others believe in, just because you don't? How presumptuous, yet, how TYPICAL!

    November 21, 2011 at 11:25 am |
    • tallulah13

      @99.5RT

      I left this for you on a previous series of posts, where you had made multiple comments, then repeated the one you have here.

      First you said this:
      "Too bad, it seems that when it comes to the Bible and God, atheists don't only have lack of belief but also common sense. No wonder, they become an atheist upon or after reading the Bible."

      And then you said this:
      "If you don't believe etheir in God the Bible or both, SO BE IT. That is your will and choice. Why there's a need to mock, insult, ridicule and nullify something that others believe in, just because you don't? How presumtuous, yet, how TYPICAL!"

      Are you even capable of recognizing your own hypocrisy?

      November 21, 2011 at 11:31 am |
    • William Demuth

      We have a moral obligation to refute the stupid, crazy, immoral or unjust.

      Any form of bigotry combined with a cult mentality needs to be refuted.

      Be it Nazisim, Christianity or the KKK, moral men MUST speak or innocents suffer.

      Your religion is more than just a benign belief, it is a cancer on our collective society, and it and its othe Abrahamic variants need to be destroyed.

      November 21, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • Rick

      "How presumptuous, yet, how TYPICAL!"

      Back at you. You feel you know what "God" thinks. Can you get any more presumptuous?

      November 21, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • TJ

      “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
      ― Thomas Jefferson

      November 21, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yeah, ridicule and derision is pretty much the only way to respond to dipwads like Chad who think repeating fallacies and fantasies is sufficient to mount an argument for their beliefs.

      That would be fine if such nimrods kept their beliefs to themselves. What's problematic is their expectation that others should live their lives according to beliefs that they don't share and are unproven.

      November 21, 2011 at 7:14 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.