November 28th, 2011
10:50 AM ET
Want cheaper tuition? Find religion
By Blake Ellis, CNNMoney
New York (CNNMoney) - With church membership dwindling and more families struggling to afford the cost of college, many private religiously-affiliated colleges and universities are slashing tuition and offering incentives to attract new students - and to stay afloat.Read the full story on how Christian colleges offer tuition discounts
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
I'LL CONTINUE PAYING OVER A THOUSAND DOLLARS PER CLASS. RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS CAN BLOW. CHURCH IS FREE. WHY WOULD ANYONE GO AND PAY TO GET THE SAME CRAP YOU'D GET FROM SOME TOOL AT A STAND FOR FREE EVERY SUNDAY?
The only reason there is a canada is that it was founded by traitors to the American way of life. No second amendment rights, no right to assemble and protest and civil rights? Don't even get us started on the "Indian List." It explains the ass hole opinions that are on these blogs, no wonder , canadians butting in where they don't belong. D as in dumb.
Of all the ridiculous things to be paranoid about: Canadian's holding and expressing opinions. Yeah, there's a major issue of the day. Fortunately, Americans everywhere who live in abject terror of Canadian opinion pieces have Captain America here who will whine at any Canadian who says anything about anything. We can all sleep easier.
I saw Canadians massing on the border set to invade the other day. They are supported by UN troops who will turn the Western US into a "peace garden". (Oh yea, and aliens are helping with ray guns).
Captain America.. you realize that the letters of your handle is CA..which is the designation of a Canadian web site. .ca.. irony perhaps..
The only reason we Canadians would need the right to bear arms would be to give you a hug since you obviously were not loved enough as a child. We also do have the right to assemble, but we usually just smoke too much weed and forget why we're there in the first place, and if you think that American civil liberties are in any way better than ours, you are either delusional, or you have a very warped sense of what civil liberty means.
You give good Americans a bad name with your worthless drivel.
Have a nice day eh!
Canada has already infiltrated our country. Canada's powerful air force can be seen at parks and on lawns across our states. Some of our senior citizens even sit on park benches and feed them. They are nearly stealth too, because they only have much of a radar signature when they fly in large flocks. But the bombs they drop are a bit of a hazard and not so nice if you step in them.
Those bird bombs are more relevant than canadian opinion on these USA blogs. Pretty safe bet they won't discuss the Riot Act or their infamous Indian List but they love to butt into the American scene like their opinions actually were worth something to us.
Lesson learned. 1. Read article 2. Don't waste time on anything below the dark black line. (Most of the comments will have little to do with the direct content of the article.
JUST LIKE YOUR COMMENT.
I'm so smart, quite possibly the smartest person alive.
@sue – "Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Your math stinks !
p.s. that is a complement
Don't Feed the Trolls!!!!
I'm less concerned with the tuition than with things like this:
Pursuing a Teacher Education degree will prepare graduates for licensure to educate students from a Christian worldview through a variety of avenues. "
And they are accredited as well, by http://www.sacscoc.org which is a DOE recognized accrediting agency.
DOE, meaning Dept of Education not of Energy. DOEd (?)
In those text books there are pictures of jesus riding a dinosaur.
This article has many bits of great news for atheists! Based on just the headline, I expected to respond with something like this was just competing brands using pricing practices to increase market share in a declining market but was pleasantly surprised to see the article pretty much used a similar marketing/business oriented analysis. Let's hope we see "going out of business" signs for several cults in the near future.
The more we atheists can do to help raise children out of the dark superst.itions that have haunted their parents their entire lives, the better. The trick is to continue to debate the theists at every opportunity and allow them to show how weak their arguments are.
With the internet and the access to different views it brings, I give it 10 years before we atheists and agnostics are in the slight majority in the USA.
Put simply, no superst.ition is as powerful as the thinking human being.
Oh I will be here ten years later. I think that things will stay pretty much how they are.
That's fine, JW. My grandmother still uses a typewriter. Not all are capable of keeping up.
@ Colin You are sounding religious there... Ooops!
Surprising to see 90% of posts are angry and from atheists.......when article was written on the belief blog.
Atheists posting angry rants? Never heard of such a thing..........Lol
The speed with which believers attack the person becuase thay cannot attack the comment is quite impressive.
@colin – And you think people come on these boards to have a legitimate debate? Maybe about 1% do, talk about delusional.
If anyone has any real interest in learning or researching then they certainly don't read the comments section on CNN to gain any knowledge. The ignorance on these boards is profound. I've done ample research on my own and am content with my conclusions, which are not based on delusional sky fairies as you all so delicately phrase it. Seems kinda silly to try and out debate random trolls on a public comments board doesn't it? Especially when the majority of posts are meant just to get reactions out of people. Cheers.
"The ignorance on these boards is profound. I've done ample research on my own and am content with my conclusions, which are not based on delusional sky fairies as you all so delicately phrase it. Seems kinda silly to try and out debate random trolls on a public comments board doesn't it? Especially when the majority of posts are meant just to get reactions out of people. Cheers."
Kettle meet pot...pot meet kettle.
Now I'm just curious. on a couple of separate occasions you admonish atheists for being perjorative and hostile, only coming to the comment board to get a rise out of christians. You also dismiss people who present valid arguments against posts you made saying you refuse to argue or debate with them. Tell me, why exactly do you look at this board if you believe that no one, or "1%" come to debate and the others just bash one another?
@chuckles – I didn't ignore Colin's argument. I proved him wrong in one short sentence (i.e. Galileo's primary argument is against the purposefully deceitful application of Biblical passages, inappropriately used out of context.),
I then said that I wasn't going to debate anyone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about. BTW I come on here when I'm slow at work to read the articles and always find myself getting sucked into the comments, even though I know they rarely contain value. Guess it can just be entertaining at times.
Gallileo was threatened because he (correctly) question heliocentricity. All of the other scientists and thinkers were banned and threatened because they were instrumental in science and freethought steamrolling over the Bronze age mythology from the bible.
Alfonzo, no, actually Colin blew your "argument" out of the water. You are just too stupid to realize that.
I have to agree with some of the responders here. The atheists here can be just as bad as the Fundys. But if you have the truth I guess it gives you the right to belittle everyone else and give them second class status.
If I were to become an Atheist I certainly wouldn't want to become like many of the ones that post here any more than if I wanted to become a Christian I wouldn't have any plans of becoming a Fundamentalist or specifically a member or Westboro Baptist Church.
Quite frankly most of the Atheists who post here sound very predictable and use the same arguments and Buzz Words. (Some even recycle long posts with a little editing here and there) Learn to think for yourself and quit taking your cues from the Revs Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris. You do more to push people away from atheism than towards it.
"Quite frankly most of the Atheists who post here sound very predictable and use the same arguments and Buzz Words. (Some even recycle long posts with a little editing here and there) Learn to think for yourself and quit taking your cues from the Revs Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris. You do more to push people away from atheism than towards it."
You do get the same can be said about Christians too, they have their buzz words, they copy and paste from bible study websites, etc.... Thankfully they are pushing people away from religion! LOL!
@ Really? Guess what I agree with you 100% But then you have people pushed away from both sides (Religion and Atheism) Good job boys!! Maybe there can be a Middle Path so to speak.
Truth is not a popularity contest nor is it determined by a majority.
And how can you expect respect when your beliefs can be proven to be false and you deliberately and forcefully keep on believing in what is total BS and proven to be BS?
Not many people read these comments anyway. Who cares? We are just here for each other.
As to original content, mine, at least is ALL original. I have not read any books by Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.
I am coming up with my arguments by myself. But facts are facts and will often be argued the same way by different people who are trying to reason with unreasonable people.
Do you respect an unreasonable person when they commit crimes against you? Why not? That's what you are asking of us atheists. We are supposed to just roll over and shut up. Oh, yes, I've seen plenty of that sort of comment by Christians, Muslims, and even the very few Jews who aren't afraid to post.
Religious people want everything their own way according to their religious point of view and will not tolerate dissenting opinions since these are also considered "blasphemy" "heresy" "apostasy" and the like.
The problem is in the reactions of the religious believers, not the words of atheists.
You are allowed to damn us to your fake hell, but we are not allowed to fight back?
Hypocrisy is your god, not some bearded old man in the sky.
@ OldTimer Some good points. I'm not writing as a religious person nor do I believe that all Atheists think or talk alike (But there are many who do) The bottom line for me is not WHAT you believe but HOW you believe it. I guess that many of the posters are engaging in what can be best described as Troll-Like behavior. They just want to see how ticked off people can get.
"The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it."
– Robert Heinlein
+1 for quoting Heinlein!
So many ignorant people on the comments board. Pretty sad really........
Yes, starting with the christards...those not living in the 21st century! 🙂
@truth – Your comment just proved my point. Good job.
There is no one as willfully ignorant as a religious believer. They refuse all real-world knowledge that contradicts their myopic "faith".
And as we all know, "faith" is just another word for "ignorance". With proof, faith disappears, yet so many believers will gladly boast that they "know" their "god" is real.
Of course they are lying to themselves and others.
If they "knew" anything, they would already be in possession of some proof, yet they will always deny they have proof or say it is "personal" or "unique and never to be repeated", despite their claims that prayer works, etc. and thus should be repeatable. Not too good with logic, most of them.
Willfully ignorant believers should be ashamed of their blatant foolishness, yet they will often be proud of their deliberate ignorance.
Well, ignorance can be bliss sometimes, but when it warps your whole decision-making process it becomes a bad thing.
You need real-world knowledge to make good decisions, not ambiguous mystical clap-trap.
Live and learn. If you grow old like me you won't be so surprised to see ignorance in action like we see from religious people all the time.
How so? The fact that christians are living in accordance with a book written 2000 years ago is ignorance without a doubt! We have come so far in what science has been able to discover to continue to live in accordance to that book. That book has never been updated whereas science is constantly updating as more evidence is found. Nothing ignorant about living in the 21st century and being able to change your mind in accordance with the facts as they are presented to you. The ignorant are the ones who refuse to accept the updated information!
@OldTimer: my post was directed at Alfonzo not you (just to clarify).
Don't worry, it is pretty clear.
@oldtimer – So I'm as.suming then you don't hold faith in anything? Because that would be ignorance according to you. Religions aside, you hold faith in various things day in and day out, for which you don't have "proof," sorry but your argument is logically flawed.
@truth – I guess you never learned that the Bible wasn't a science book? It was never intended to be either. I'm not against science, evolution, or whatever you claim all Christians oppose. Guess you decide to overlook the facts when they don't support your preconceived notion.
The type of faith to which you are referring is more properly defined as 'reasonable expectation'.
I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow based on a lifetime of prior experience.
Religious faith is belief in a proposition in spite of a total lack of evidence.
Alfonzo – what nonsense. the Bible claims to be a science book. It purports to explain three of the largest questions in the history of human thought – (i) where the Universe came from; (ii) how life arose on Earth; and (iii) what happens to humans after they die.
It was only after science proved it to be woefully wrong on all three points that you Bible-cuddlers starting disavowing its claims as a book of science. Give me one source anywhere in Christian literature that did not take Genesis as literally true before Darwin (and many others) proved it to be nonsense.
@Colin – Sorry but you're completely wrong on all accounts. You're either intellectually dishonest or just completely uneducated on the subject you're claiming to have knowledge about. Not surprising.
Oh, really Alfonzo? So why did the church ban and/or threaten death to Copernicus, Gallileo, Jean Paul Sartre, Voltaire, Denis Diderot, Victor Hugo, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, René Descartes, Francis Bacon, John Milton, John Locke, Blaise Pascal and Giodarno Bruno?
Look, your Bronze Age mythology has been proven to be nonsense for simple minds. It is the 21st Century. Move on.
Alfonzo – I looked at your (religious) web site. They do not cite one author who referes to a 13,700,000,000 year old Universe or a 4,500,000,000 year old Earth, to evolution, to plate tectonics, or any basic principles of science when it comes to the history of the planet. It is apologist nonsense.
Sorry alfonzo, but six days and a talking snake just doesn't cut it and nor does apologist reinterpretations straining to show garbage to be credible. Typical Christian fact-hiding and lies.
@colin – Galileo, Copernicus, and many others you mentioned were Christians, LOL. C'mon man.
Galileo's primary argument is against the purposefully deceitful application of Biblical passages, inappropriately used out of context. Debate officially over. As I said before, you are either extremely uneducated or intellectually dishonest. In either case, I do not wish to argue with a person like you because it produces no value.
Many of the scientist listed were christians at a time when that cult had great, if not supreme, power, and to not be a christian meant severe penalties, including death.
Is Alfonzo "run & hide Herbie"'s new nom de stupidity?
Alfonzo=Herbie. Different name, same stupidity.
I knew it. The style seemed SO familiar. Herbie, you repeatedly reinforce my original opinion of you.
Thou art a moron, herbie.
I just want to start a drinking game. Every time Colin says "Bronze age" or "Bronze age mythology" or "Sky fairy" in a sentence, everyone take a shot. 🙂
Oh please...I was enjoying the time without Herbie The Hate Bug and now it comes back to pollute us with its delusions only as a wolf in sheeps clothing...how grossly immature! What a coward!
"drinking game. Every time Colin says "Bronze age" or "Bronze age mythology" or "Sky fairy" in a sentence, everyone take a shot"
Yeah get all the Christians to do it because drunkards aren't allowed in heaven. LOL!
Damien, you sure you want to do that?
Given that "Bronze Ae mythology" is the term I use to describe, well Bronze Age mythology, and given how often I post, you will be in AA before the end of the year.....
Alfonzo.. you claimed earlier to have come to a conclusion based on ample research, as it is a belief blog I assume it was in relation to a god. I also assume from your assertions it must be for the existence of god. So as an atheist I would be interested in what evidence you uncovered and used to rationalize it, and which god happens to be the real one. So far, this information has been lacking.
As far as the comment board. the articles act as a catalyst for discussion and rarely follow the subject matter.
I thank god my daughter never asked me to put her through school to be a pastor. What a waste of a life. A little bit of vomit came up in the back of my throat when I read your post.
It's nice to see tolerance thrives within the atheist community.
"It's nice to see tolerance thrives within the atheist community."
Well it definitely doesn't exist in christianity. LOL!
I have to agree with Alfonzo here...it is nice to see tolerance thrives within the Atheist community. At least we have not brainwashed our children!
David and his wife obviously did a great job in raising their daughter and without religion involved she has gone on to become a productive member of society. They should not be condemned for raising such a child but instead congratulated...we need more young adults like their daughter in this world.
"At least we have not brainwashed our children!"
Of course you are, Christianity is one of the worse offenders of intolerance. I hope your children grow up to be gay. 😉
@Well: I am not christian!! I am very much an atheist. I wouldn't care if my daughter was lesbian, as long as she is happy.
Maybe try reading some of my other comments. The only thing I agree with is that tolerance is high amongst Atheists...we happen to be extremely tolerant people...just not the backwards way of thinking that christianity promotes.
Alfonzo, why should we be "tolerant" of your religion, when most of what it delivers is suffering and a pathetic, backward worldview that is so obviously wrong.
Your sickening whining isn't going to get any sympathy from me.
From the article:
"With church membership dwindling..."
Damn! I can't get past that sentence. This AND the Catholics buying the Crystal Cathedral!
All I can say, is Merry Christmas to all!
This is a good opportunity for science to do a proper study on the success of these students. To plot out their next 20 or 30 years in various areas of study. What I want to know in the next coming 30 years are generalized like these: "outcome of religious doctrines in relation to crime rates". Belief doctrines vs the participation in changing a society, and rate of adoption or (creating) of technology by newer belief followers.
I highly doubt the last set of belief followers in contributing newer technology on their education solely in bible studies of course. They would have to suspend their limited mindset and take up and understand pure science to contribute.
What I do know of these new students of faith will be is the next generation of preachers in unifying the concept of salvation for space alien life and converting them to their faith. The current generation is tasking themselves right now to figure out where religion will be able to play out if our species does encounter alien life so I see this as logic.
What a sad photo. A dozen kids who are likely to otherwise be smart, contributing members of society, bowing their heads and believing that some Bronze Age Middle Eastern sky-fairy is reading their minds.
Pathetic really, isn't it.
It is and that is why people like us would never send our children to these schools. When my daughter starts college next September, she will attend a secular school where everyone is free to believe as they wish without the fear of persecution. All schools like this do is breed the next generation brainwashed fools.
My daughter has an engineering degree. She is pro-choice. She is a freethinker.
For the record I never once sent her to church, Sunday school, bible school or Jesus camp. We read before bedtime, but neither of us felt the need to say prayers. I am proud of her... and I am proud of me.
I'm glad you saw to your daughter in the way you did. Supporting her and seeing to her education! Congrats.
Every story like that is a good reflection on the future. Progress! 🙂
Good job, David! And good for your daughter too! Engineering is a good sort of degree to have. We need more engineers.
To Colin: Yes, it is always very sad to see more fundies trapped within their web of lies and deceit. You can bet many of their parents listen to Rush Limbaugh too. This country is in the toilet because of people like them. More proof there is no god....
@David: Kudos. I too raised my daughter as a free thinker. She is intending to study social work when she attends college. I always believed that the decision on her choice of belief was her decision to make and fortunately she is very open minded as a result. She has been read to every night since she was born and I have always ensured she has had a variety of reading materials available to her. I am firm believer that knowledge is our saving point in this world and have instilled that in her. Presently she is in her second last semester of high school and is highly interested in the Occupy movements here in Canada. Outside of the typical teenage stuff that drives most parents insane, she is a wonderful person.
This should offer hope to you. Christians believe God only allows this earth to keep going as long as one more soul has the possibility of finding the truth and the light. Once that happens we will enter the end of days.
The bunch in Iran, actually believe that the 13th Imam will come and in order to hasten that arrival Israel must be destroyed.
So tell me when you are old and in a nursing home would you rather have a young Christian or Muslim changing your diaper?
The country is in the toilet because we each ran with our own moral guide and lost all unity. In case you have not noticed if you wish to destroy a country from within simply replace the truth with a lie that sounds good. This country was great when we had one master and that master was God. Life was a blessing to be embraced and we were to use our gifts and talents to create a better world. If your truth is as good as mine there is a dilution of resolve.
Colin and his followers are still human. Humans have a history of following regardless of religious or atheist banner. When is the last time a superpower and a godless people produced anything worthwhile.
"This country was great when we had one master and that master was God. "
Hey moron, this country never had the master of a god, it's why there was separation of church and state. Let's face it only 2 of the 10 commandments would only make it as law in this country, everything else would be deemed unconstitutional!
fred, all of human history proves you wrong. Your "god" does not answer prayers and does not give advice or counseling on real-world politics. Your "god" is strictly "hands-off" when it comes to real-world events.
Ask your "god" for the solution to fixing our economy and putting people back to work. Go ahead. All you get is silence because your god does not exist.
Technically, we have always been godless. It's just that some people refuse to admit it or believe it even with tons of proof.
What we do know and have plenty of historical records of, is the fact that religions always make things worse.
Oh, you might feel all warm and fuzzy at the Sunday potluck standing in a circle and holding sweaty hands with other suckers like yourself, but when it comes to dealing with your fellow human beings, religion is nothing but a stumbling block.
The stumbling block is people do not follow Christ any more than the chosen ones followed God 3,000 years ago. This is why you have the wrong impression. Perhaps you need to see some real Christians and then you will have a different view.
God has already seen the past present and future telling us all about it. We humans have decided to make it our own way which is why things are a mess. Everything is working out just as it should with prayer being answered before we even ask it sometimes. Stop limiting God to our insignificant perspective and you will see the truth.
@Yo, oldtimer is correct as he also believes Jesus when Jesus said you cannot serve two masters.
"God has already seen the past present and future telling us all about it. We humans have decided to make it our own way which is why things are a mess."
Things are a mess? What planet are you on? Most of the people I know are doing just fine. Yes we have high unemployment but the majority of people are working, it's not like the great depression. You must only get your facts from the news and they always give a negative spin. Christians want the world to be a mess so they can blame man for not believing in their fake god. I hate to break it to you but things are not that bad. No wonder you believe in a god you're dam depressing!
Fred...What prayers have been answered..please be specific...you are confusing coincidence with prayer as they are the same thing. The end of days again? where the prayers of the staving African answered or just ignored in favor of an outcome to a football game?
Sorry, not sure what you are referring to. However, in response I track prayer for a different group of 15-20 men each year. I find that 90% are answered. You are correct in that the answer could be argued as being coincodence and a non beleiver would further view at the "answered" prayer as contrived anyway.
I recall after my conversion suddenly I saw Gods hand print on everywhere. Prior to that I would have thought it simply a coincodence also.
Fred..god will never save you from certain death..prayers only get answered if the outcome is safe..you would and could never trust god with your life. Lets try a thought experiment here..take those fellows who had 90% of their prayers answered and load them and you on a plane in which the pilots will bail out 40,000 ft, leaving only the passengers with the power of prayer and god to land it ,I know the outcome ..and so do you.. it will result in large hole in the ground some what short of the runway. You would never take that flight as you know it would mean certain death and for all the talk no one is that anxious to prove the after life is real Do you really think a god would intervene..no because he cannot he does not exist other than in your head. Sorry its still coincidence
You have a good handle on the Bible. When Jesus was tempted one of the temptations was to jump off a building to see if Gods angels would catch him. Jesus replied:”For it is written do not test the Lord your God”
Jesus prayed asking the Father is there was some other way than taking on the sins of the world for atonement. That answer was a resounding no. Gods will be done can mean many things but, the bottom line is that God is sovereign. God answers certain prayers for certain people and the Bible is clear on this. The answer to prayer is coincidence to the non believer and the hand of God to the believer.
Fred.. Jesus knew he would end up as a splat if he jumped off the cliff.. so he said "God" told him he could not be tested. very clever..what better way for Jesus to con the folks...come on Fred.. do you not see what you have been asked to swallow...
I cannot see anywhere that Jesus was out to con anyone. I think you know the story of Christ and his purpose. Christ came to give his life for us not take anything. Even if you do not believe what the Bible says you certainly know that Jesus was without sin, a perfect sacrifice.
The story you refer to is the second temptation of Christ which relates more to how one will twist the words of the bible in order to deceive. Here the Devil manipulates the word of God and it is warning that we need to be on the watch for those that take Gods Holy Word out of context. The Devil was testing God so Jesus simply quoted correct scripture which exposed the evil.
Fred. Jesus could have said anything and said it came from the devil or god..with out any evidence there is no difference. As it was only jesus who had communication from god how do you have any idea it was real input. And was written by hearsay 400 years later. Can you remember what the most popular thread was a year ago on here with out looking it up..neither can I..yet the bible is taken by you to be real...sorry Fred.
There is a difference between proof and evidence. We have a lot of evidence and no “proof” that meets standards set up by science for scientists. How do you know the rules of proof set up by science were not set up by the great deceiver? Perhaps this is a simply all a vivid dream. Remember that deception means you cannot see the deception. If the rules of science are all they are trumped up to be how is it the conclusion is most often proved false as we gain knowledge over time?
It was science that said the earth was flat while the Bible made it clear it was a sphere. Now, before you go out and grab a bunch of twisted stuff off the internet you need to know the time, place and people Isaiah was addressing. The word used in 750BC for sphere is often translated as circle which is correct however, that was not its meaning as people understood it. The Hebrew word relates to the circle of the wedding dance. This circle goes around in all possible planes like the longitude and lat-itude lines on a globe. It represents being surrounded by God in your new life as husband and wife. Anyway this is what I was told by an old African Jewish scholar. What we do is grab that data which supports our case so we never get anywhere. Your thoughts and my thoughts will remain the same because the brain rationalizes its surroundings to justify our actions.
As to AD 400 year date of written manuscripts, post Christ nonsense, that is so worn out on this site. The vast majority of reputable scholars do not agree with you or the nonsense on this site. The manuscripts such as the writings of Paul are well accepted as authentic in the first century AD. Seven of the 14 of Pauls writings are universally accepted by scholars and historians as written between 50-62AD. Prior to those writings there are many accounts of verbal presentation of several key epistles by Paul. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain 972 texts from 150 BC to 70AD which support in great detail the Bible as we know it today.
“It was science that said the earth was flat while the Bible made it clear it was a sphere. Now, before you go out and grab a bunch of twisted stuff off the internet you need to know the time, place and people Isaiah was addressing. The word used in 750BC for sphere is often translated as circle which is correct however, that was not its meaning as people understood it. The Hebrew word relates to the circle of the wedding dance. This circle goes around in all possible planes like the longitude and lat-itude lines on a globe. It represents being surrounded by God in your new life as husband and wife. Anyway this is what I was told by an old African Jewish scholar. What we do is grab that data which supports our case so we never get anywhere. Your thoughts and my thoughts will remain the same because the brain rationalizes its surroundings to justify our actions.”
LMAO! That is not the real reason at all but a bunch of made up shit by you. It was circle that was translated NOT sphere and your god should have known that, oh wait, that’s right it’s a book written by men. LOL! Wow it’s no wonder you believe this crap with warped excuses like that.
I was pointing out that people will believe what they want. You are not slapping me you are taking a slap at an African Jewish scholar that lives this stuff. I do not know Hebrew or Jewish traditions of 750 BC. I guess you think you do. I am always amazed how one will take a Wiki post over a live scholar who is emersed in the culture where the text originated.
Go dig up all your scientists that get it wrong all the time. When you done with that perhaps you can at least marvil at the Bilbe which to date has yet to be proved false.
"When you done with that perhaps you can at least marvil at the Bilbe which to date has yet to be proved false."
It already is false since there is no god, no proof of a god and much of the NT can be shown to be taken from other religions of that time period. Duh....
Back to basics? Ok let us start all over. This time can we at least agree that there is no proof God exists when God his held up to a standard that is well below Gods Divine Holy Nature? That standard of proof which atheists like to apply to God (knowing full well proof of God or proof of no God cannot be approached in this manner) would be in line with the scientific method.
Now, I can prove your god (Mammon) is manmade. I probably do not need to even do that since you already know your god is manmade. Simple enough since we can list all the elements that your god is made of. You on the other hand cannot even begin to tell me what elements God is made, how God began, where God exists or when God exists.
Atleast the religious schools arent full of gays, lesbeans, trannys, doo doo eaters, butthumpers and all the other non-sensical idiots.
nope just bigots and haters!
I see hope in the future when these kids grow up to be less like their current parents. When kids get educated and interact with other kids they change. That is pure hope.
We won't as a society be bigoted like tastylicious anymore – someday! When his generation dies off and their kids get better education, religion will have to update their belief systems. All the retarded indoctrination of the old system will flake away and be replaced. Religion itself will go the way of the dodo when it has changed enough to be utterly useless.
The next fifty years will be a time of real change. Exciting times ahead everybody. Hopefully our society can put up the 'skybridge' to space in our generation so we all can really make religion go away!
@Your husbands big weiner is tastyLicious
You said: "Atleast the religious schools arent full of gays, lesbeans, trannys, doo doo eaters, butthumpers and all the other non-sensical idiots."
Why do gays bother you so? I play cards with a gay couple and 3 straight guys, most every Friday. You wouldn't even know they were gay, if you were a stranger who dropped in. These guys are warm and funny. I would miss them if they moved.
The above post is a reflection on the individual posting not religion.
You have no proof that the world would be better without religion. Religion does constrain evil even though it is often misused by man. Even if you wish to argue with that, all we have known in this country is the Christian culture. You think a godless society has some great glorious and positive effects yet, you have never experienced it.
@fred: where is your proof that we are better b/c of religion? Have we forgotten the inquisition? the crusades? 9/11? oh so many more horrific acts caused because religious zealots have had opposing views and they fight to try to out-do the next group. Religion is damaging and that has been shown over and over again but I don't expect you to understand that....you take the buybull as the whole truth regardless of what facts are put in front of you...your ignorance is sad.
I am a better person than I was before Christ came into my life.
With a few exceptions everyone I personally witnessed in Christ are better people.
2mm dollars a year we spend educating & feeding kids is better than zero.
Visiting prisoners, nursing homes and hospitals leaves something better behind.
When it comes to wars and evil I could also list a bunch like Stalin, Poll Pot etc. that were as bad as some religion. Man can and will do terrible things regardless of choice of weapons.
"I am a better person than I was before Christ came into my life."
What happened is you started on the road to begin to love yourself, which you didn't because of your abusive childhood. It's not a god doing that but yourself, but you sill need to increase that self love. Loving yourself is one of the keys to leading a happy and healthy life but it's not christ, it's you doing it.
@fred: Wonderful if you have found solace this way (not that I believe you need christianity to find solace...I found that after I left the belief system behind...different strokes) but the bottom line when it comes to Stalin, Pol Pot, etc is that they did their misdeeds in the name of other beliefs...not as a result of Atheism. I know many good christians and I know many good atheists...human nature is a wonderful thing and we do not need a god to see that. Unfortunately we will never convince the other here of our stance...it's the dividing power amongst mankind sadly. So I'm happy without god, it works me and you're apparently happy with god and that works for you...life does go on!
Order of priority is God, family, others then self. So, typically I start off in 4th place. I am ok in that position. Life is real short and if you believe in God then relative to eternity it is virtually non-existent. This makes the hardest things in life bearable when focus is outside of self and upon that which is eternal.
Jesus said to love you neighbor as yourself so you are correct in getting love self in order. Everyone’s complete life experience forms who they are and even terrible events can produce good. This is where God is most helpful as God works all things for the Good of those who believe. If life is too easy we could well become lazy, if it is hard be become stronger.
I have also noticed an inverse relationship between the degree of suffering one encounters and the level of their faith. I doubt I would have ever believed in God if not for Divine way God brought me into a faith in Jesus.
“If life is too easy we could well become lazy, if it is hard be become stronger.”
That’s not true at all our lives have become easier than those in our past and we have become stronger and better. Why do you think people are now living into the 70 and 80’s.
“I have also noticed an inverse relationship between the degree of suffering one encounters and the level of their faith. I doubt I would have ever believed in God if not for Divine way God brought me into a faith in Jesus.”
This too is not true. I have seen first hand true hardship of people far worse than probably your life and it was through love of others and finding love within themselves that gave them the strength to become greater, not a god.
I think I need to reiterate this. These are BIBLE COLLEGES. They're not like traditional universities. The ONLY degrees you can get are religious in nature. There's no one going, "Gee, I really want a computer science degree...but I can only afford St. Luke of Dagobah's Seminary School...so I guess I'll go there and get my computer science degree." No, the only thing St. Luke's offers are degrees in religious studies, philosophy, theology, or comparative religions.
Unfortunately you are wrong about what these schools offer. These are not seminaries, they are full blown college/universities grounded in religion.The Brewton-Parker College mentioned in the article offers 4 year drgree programs in Computer Information Systems, and pre-med Biology just to name a couple.
Pre-med biology from a Baptist school?
How many medical doctors out there do you think reject evolution?
The great majority of private colleges are, or were, started by religious organizations, that is hard to reconize any longer because of liberal thinking and instruction. That is beside the point. This really isn't a belief article, but if you read the first sentence, that is the key. Many, if not all, religious colleges are partly supported by donations given by church congregations. If these congregations are getting smaller, so are the donations to colleges. Some, not all, of these colleges offer a discount if the student is a member of the supporting church denomination(s). To get good instructors, they need to offer high saleries. There are some of these colleges that offer a large scope of classes and degrees. Check them out.
As an employer, I checked them out, and my stance remained the same. Education at religious colleges in what I hire for is generally inferior to that of colleges without ties to dogma. So, students, do keep that in mind before you sign up for The College of the Holy Sky Fairy.
I am an S.T.D. (Sacrae Theologiae Doctor).
Even though I prominantly displayed my credentials on all job applications, nobody would hire me.
Realizing that I needed to further my education, I went by to my Alma Mater, The University of Baptist Scripture (U of BS) and attained a master's degree in Biblical Geology.
My thesis paper explained that the age of rock samples cannot be accurately dated thanks to the differeing buoyancy rates of dinosaurs during Noah's flood, but alas, it failed to impress a single prospective employer.
You are actually a DFC and obviously no one in your own country gives a flying f for your opinion.What makes you think any American needs to hear from you?
Don't listen to that idiot, Doc. I thought your post was funny. And I, for one, welcome our new Canadian overlords, eh!
Lovely to hear from you, as always.
What exactly is "DFC"?
You've hurled plenty of invectives my way, but that's a new one...
Doc, I'm guessing C=Canadian; F = the usual , but D has me beat. Damn"?
@Captain: You'd be wrong about people in his own country not caring about Doc...AtheistSteve and I happen to have a great deal of respect for Doc's opinion and we live two provinces away from him. Do you have an issue with Canadian's? We're proud of our country and we do stand by it!
Why is this American site inundated with ass hole canadians? Screw up your own country !
Sometimes I think that's the secret slogan of the GOP: "screw up your own country!"
Want useless education? Find Religion.
As a tech employer who has seen perhaps thousands of job applications, I definitely rank employee candidates lower if their education is from a bible thum-per college versus one without a religious dogma affiliation. I hold the "education" from such bible thum-per colleges suspect. So, for my case (and I know it is the same for several of my peers), the job prospect concerns of those wary prospective students are legitimate.
Sure I can understand an employer hiring a student from MIT rather than ITT Tech or a bible college. The more you pay for school, the better your education. But I wouldn't want to work for an employer who disrespects someone just for their belief.
Also, let's look at this. These schools have to be accredited...which means in theory, they all cover the same coursework with some variances, but all of them to meet certain criteria. So a bachelor's degree from St. Mary's College, has covered the same material as UC Davis.
It really only becomes an issue with places like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princeton, Brown, where the standards are higher for attendance.
I think what Bob is saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it isn't just about the specific education that someone gets because as damian pointed out, in theory if ou receive a degree from an accredited school, the same course work should be completed. However the issue lies in the personality of the person and what sort of person will be hired. A person who holds a degree from a biblical school, regardless of degree, is going to be immediatly judged. Even if the person who holds the degree is very secular and identifies as christian in a very cosmetic way, they'll still carry that stigma with them.
So in essence, what you're saying is, "If you attend a school with a religious name, you're going to be judged by bigots simply because they don't believe the way you do."
Sounds like an awesome violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Article VII.
Shucks Bob, you are missing out on lower health care costs. Premiums were 2% lower for Christian based nonprofit organizations over secular industries. That even takes into account higher birth rates. The good news for you is that most states found this unfair so employers with less than 50 employees no longer get the good health discount. Yes, I know it the result was due to healthier life style rather than a better God which cannot be proven. Now, how unfair is that.
There is a big difference in the "rep" that you take with you with degrees from St. Mary's, Loyola, Notre Dame, etc. and Biola U., Bethany Bible College, etc.
My oldest son got an accounting degree from St. Mary's, passed his CPA tests promptly, and launched into the secular world just fine (he's agnostic, btw). St. Mary's, to their credit, although hugely expensive, got him through in exactly 4 years, with skillful course planning. My other 3 children attended State Universities, and it took them at least 7 years to finish.
Not exactly. First and foremost you have to define the discri.mination that's taking place. A person might not receive a job based on their faith because the company has a part.icul.ar "anti-christian" policy – that's clearly di.scr.imination. However, if a company will accept a person with any religious affi.lia.tion as long as that person is viewed as being able to be part of a business stru.cture, then it stands to reason that at most places that is both welcoming to all religions but also a sec.ular environment where they won't to.lerate pros.lety.zing from any religion, then a person who holds a degree from a renowned bible-thu.mping school will get the, alb.eit sometimes unfair, impli.cation that if they are accepted to a parti.cular job, they'll do a little pre.aching on the side, whether its during break or not.
Secondly, and its sort of what I was saying below, a person with a degree from a bibli.cal school will , also maybe unfairly so, be imp.lic.ated as having their education cor.rupted by reli.gious do.gma. If you receive a di.ploma from a religious school on biology, how much do you want to bet that whoever sees this will immediately wonder if you believe in evolution or not, and if not then what exactly does your education in biology mean exactly.
Right, my only point was, not accepting someone simply because they came from an accredited, religious insti.tution is religious discrimination. Granted, you can sugar coat it all you like and you don't have to say that's the reason for not hiring them - but it's still discrimination whether or not you can legally prove it. By Bob's statement above, he feels that all religious insti.tutions have substandard education to a secular school. That's prejudicial and ignorant, no matter how you want to spin it.
As for an accredited religious school teaching biology or other sciences, it's a bit of an ignorant theory to believe that biology students don't receive the same education as someone else from a secular school. There's no evidence to support that a biology student has any more or any less education, or even religious beliefs, than someone who attended a secular school. It's not like there's a clear "Oh you're Christian, you go to this school. You're an athiest, you go to this school." I mean, as a Christian, I attended a secular school. It's just plain, simple minded thought patterns that believe that just by virtue of the school being founded in religion that it is somehow beneath a secular school. In fact, it is MORE likely that they received the same education given that there are standards of accreditation that are secular.
The idea that a Christian is going to preach at their place of business, smacking people in the head with the Bible and casting out demons from his desk computer is just nonsense. And if a person of ANY belief starts to preach, I think a supervisor is well within their right to tell said believer that it is inappropriate to do at work and take disciplinary measures to ensure compliance. I feel the same way about political preaching at the workplace.
fred, you've already shown yourself incompetent to comment on fairness. And most other topics, for that matter.
Well religious discrimination is pretty well outlined. I think you're using discrimination in this sense that its unfair to apply standards because it involves religion. I will say though that an accredted school teaching a course should, in theory, be teaching the same material in a religious school as a secular school, but you and I both know that in actual practice this is not correct. For instance, I went to a secular private inst.tution for my degree and I got a minor in religion. I had to take up to 8 courses in the religion department and I would say out of those 8 courses, 3 were taught by a person of that specific religion and bias. In my more academic views I could ask any question freely and I generally liked to ask questions about specific holes and contradictions that are found in a religious text. My clearly secular professors answered my questions thoughtfully, would use the sourcematerial to back up their claims if I had missed something or would use historical background to explain why something would be included even if it made no apparent sense. My religious professors however were a bit more prohibitive and if they couldn't back up answers to my questions with other biblical/torah/upanishads, etc... material, they would revert back to a lot of arguments I find on this board. The most important thing I learned from all my courses was that even if you're taught the exact same thing as a counterpart at a different school, the bias of the school or the professor makes a big difference in how you learn it and how its presented.
As to my last point, I wasn't saying that a person coming from a bible school would be casting out demons and speaking in tongues and that nonsense, but it's the small quips and little talks that stuff tacked up notice boards that toe an iffy line if they are employees because of religious discrimination laws. Would you find it equally discriminatory if a person who might identify as an indepenedent but worked as a high ranking person for say, Boehner or Pelosi to be ultimately rejected for a job because of the party member they worked for? That person might not feel strongly about one party or another and yet based off of their previous job it implies something completely different.
I think we're saying the same thing. You stated that you had some professors who had a religious bias and some who did not. And that was at a secular school. A religious school probably has the same thing. Remember, those employment laws apply to religious schools as well, so they better be able to prove some diversity in religious beliefs. I have a friend who is Catholic and went to a Catholic University. He didn't have strictly nuns and priests as professors. So you probably have similar backgrounds in professors (until you get to like MIT and Harvard, where you gotta be a real experts in your field to teach there.)
What I'm saying is, you are not going to get professors without bias, just like you are not going to get media that doesn't have a bias. Because whether they want to or not, people's opinions are going to shine through. Further, I would hesitate to believe anyone on a subject who claims to not have a bias. Either they are lying or they haven't done enough research on the subject to be an authority, since they have no personal opinion.
As to your last question about Boehner and Pelosi, I'm not sure what you're asking. First of all, political beliefs are not part of the the Civil Rights Act of 1964, so you CAN discriminate based on those. So I think if Rush Limbaugh wanted to go work for Pelosi, he'd be turned away and that's not unfair discrimination. Can you please rephrase, if I missed your question?
I guess we are saying the same thing but coming down on different sides. I personally agree with someone who is in charge of hiring if they hold bias against a person with a degree from a religious insti.tution. It makes sense to me and its a place the person chose to attend so in a way they signed up to walk around with that rep whether they agree with it or not. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that it's unfair to judge a person on this and that hiring managers should consider a degree from a catholic school to have the same education as a secular one. I disagree because even though you're right that religious schools hire secular professors but secular schools allow for more wiggle room in a curriculum than a religious one. I had an example but I'm looking to back it up with better sources, so forgive me if I'm throwing out something you think is false, I promise I didn't pull it out of my as.s.
As for my last point about Boehner or Pelosi, it was my attempt to outline why inferrence about ones beliefs is justified even if they turn out to be false. If you walk around with a degree from a Catholic university, you're as.suming the rep just as much as people who walk around with having that political affiliation on their resume. Is it discrimination if a person applies to a company that has a very liberal office setting and a person applies there after having worked for, say Boehner, and is rejected? What if that person just graduated from Catholic University and are rejected because it can be implied from their degree that they are christiand and most likely conservative?
I don't think one can make a sound decision based on where someone attended college, but have to actually interview the applicant. That said, there may be, say a law firm, who says, "I only hire from Ivy League schools." In that case, fine, because that's a hiring preference. But to just say, "I'm not hiring him because he went to Notre Dame and that's Catholic" is really not looking beneath the surface.
In your example regarding a liberal versus conservative workplaces, I think it depends on the position. If you're applying for, say, a Republican senator looking to get re-elected, it's perfectly reasonable to not hire someone who was part of Clinton's team. However, if you're, say, looking at working for Google, which stretches the boundaries of "liberal workplace" (I know, I have a friend who works for them.) then I don't think their political viewpoints should come into consideration. That said, as I've stated, it is not illegal or immoral to not hire someone based on their political views. But to not hire someone because they have different religious views is at best immoral, at worst illegal.
As for my last point about Boehner or Pelosi, it was my attempt to outline why inferrence about ones beliefs is justified even if they turn out to be false. If you walk around with a degree from a Catholic university, you're as.suming the rep just as much as people who walk around with having that political affiliation on their resume. Is it discrimination if a person applies to a company that has a very liberal office setting and a person applies there after having worked for, say Boehner, and is rejected? What if that person just graduated from Catholic University and are rejected because it can be implied from their degree that they are christiand and most likely conservative?
Dang those bigots that sterotype.
"fred, you've already shown yourself incompetent to comment on fairness. And most other topics, for that matter."
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't hire fred because of his view on reality.
ahhhh, now here is an article that says it like it is..."do this for ease thru life!" some separation huh! fuking hypocrites!
I don't understand. They're cutting tui.ion to entice people to attend their college. They're a privately funded inst.itution. They can set their own prices, the same as Harvard or Yale. I don't see how this is any different from WalMart cutting its costs to attract people away from small businesses. It makes sound business sense, as.suming one can attract enough students to come and thereby make up the difference.
Interestingly enough, these all seem like Bible Colleges, which means the offered curriculum is very small, so the degrees are not varied. I don't think (of course, I don't know since I never attended one) that you can get say, a computer science or business degree from there.
To hippypoet...Shut up Nig ger.
i see it as a trap....or a forced upon lie to those who can't afford college! eitherway, its unethical to use religion for the furtherment of any business. That all my point is.. it may serve those who wish to learn and good for them, but it takes away from hard working folks which might just so happen to be a non believer- they pay more because of that, and the believer pays less – its begging lies upon liers heads, and i for one hope it crashes down... i would have no issue if these schools said they lowered the price for everyone, that is fair...instead what they did was say, take god in your hearts and pay less... wheres the morals, ethics, anything any proper schools of higher learning should be disstilling in our youth of today....where are they? they have been shed like a snakes old skin.. hehe biblical pun!
As a tech employer who has seen perhaps thousands of job applications, I definitely rank inbound employee candidates lower if their education is from a bible thum-per college versus one without a religious dogma affiliation. I hold the "education" from such bible thum-per colleges suspect for some of the reasons stated in the article, and others. So, for my case (and I know it is the same for several of my peers), the job prospect concerns of those wary prospective students are legitimate.
It's private inst.itutions choosing to lower their prices. The religious schools can no more cause a non-religious school to lower their prices, than a non-religious school can tell the religious schools to raise their prices. Each one sets its own cost of tuition.
Regarding it being "unethical"...it's a Bible school. It's intended to equip pastors, ministers, reverands, etc to lead people in the Christian faith. They really don't teach anything else. And I believe they did lower the costs to everyone who attends those schools...but if you don't want a degree in theology or religious studies, then it's probably not the school for you. So if you're a Hindu and go to Brewten-Parker College, you get the same rates as a Presbyterian.
I'm not sure why you're offended.
So here's how I see it. On one hand, you're right. It's business saavy and by cutting cost for education during tough ecnomic times, they'll be able to attract more students and educate more people who might have given up on college because of the expense. However, on the other hand these schools seem, in my opinion at least, to be taking advantage of tough economic times to push their agenda on people who are very vulnerable right now. It's sort of the same shtick with homeless christian shelters who serve food, provide shelter for homeless people, but also take the time to preach the bible and try to convert people. I, of course, realize that in both these cases, the christians aren't doing this out of maliciousness, or business saavy or other bad reasons but acn you at least see the inherinent wrongness in it? What I mean to say is, it's been proven that the higher degree you hold, the more successful you'll be. If a person with no religious affiliation or any religious background other than christianity has a choice of either getting a low paying job out of high school or go to a catholic university that focuses on christianity and education on the bible, which should they choose? To further complicate the matter, it says as much about a person not only if they hold a degree but from what school. Is it fair for a kid who's only chance at a 4-year education without being burdened by huge amounts of debt to attend a school and then maybe being slightly discrimnated against because jobs he/she applies for will look at the degree and wonder if the person applying is some sort of religious zealot?
i'm not really offended at all... just in a bad mood and in need of an outlet – thou i still hold to what i said about it.
Granted, i could have been kinder about it. So for that at least i say i'm sorry. Its still a trap.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. It appears you and some others view this as an attempt of insidious indoctrination on unsuspecting students trying to get an education. It's not. It's merely an offer in an attempt to bring people in. There's no one forcing anyone to attend this college or ANY college. But let's be honest. These are small colleges that teach only a few degrees, and all of them are centered around Christianity. So if you want a degree in religious studies or theology, hey, it might be a bit cheaper. But people who are going to get those degrees are already going to attend a Bible college.
I'm not saying its insidious indocterinzation, at least from a christian perspective. It's clearly coming from a good place. The difference between say, this and walmart is the product product at a bible college has a lot more implication than buying a toaster. The decrease in tuition is going to really help people regardless of who attends and obviously price isn't the only factor when choosing a university. I still maintain though that in this day and age with college tuition being so outrageously high and many people who want to succeed in life need a college degree, this will be a way to attract more people who are more vulnerable.
You are right though, the lack of options for degrees does even out the price decrease in terms of who is going to be attracted to the university in the first place. I guess my main fear is more on secular schools that are making education so prohibitive, it's only a matter of time before more and more people attend religious schools just so they can obtain any sort of degree at all. My main beef isn't necessarily that these universities are making it easier for more people to go there, but that other universities aren't following suit. I mean, regardless of religion our country, our world, doesn't need people who hold theology or religion degrees. We need more engineers, scientists, teachers, etc....
Your last point, I can absolutely agree with. Post-secondary education is becoming more and more cost-prohibitive. Where people are spending a good majority of their lives paying off outrageous student loans. And if that is your main beef with universities, shouldn't you be praising schools, regardless of what they teach, for not being so cost-prohibitive?
It seems to me, that people merely jumped all over these schools for doing what they're doing, simply because the word "Christianity" or "Religion" was attached to them. Maybe it's because I've talked with enough people who attended Bible Colleges, that I immediately said, "Oh, good. Now pastors who don't make a lot of money won't spend nearly as long getting their degrees."
I think you're right that when posted on this board you're going to get a lot of people who will attack this universities based on their founding principals. I agree, it's not exactly like these schools had a 180 degree change in policy and have started to teach something completely different than before their tuition decrease. I can not, however, in good concious praise a bible school for making education on the bible easier to get and produce more graduates with, in my opinion, almost useless degrees.
Before you jump all over my last statement, I want to say that I think a lot of colleges are issuing useless degrees and this issue isn't limited to just bible schools. Why I've isolated these schools specifically however is that with the christian bias that's the foundation for the courses at these schools, a degree in a religion other than christianity, or comparative religion is almost a joke. At a secular school teaching a comparative religion course, I feel better that the religions being compared are done on a more academic level and not from a wholly christian POV. I'll stick with condeming universities that are making post-secondary education cost-prohibitive while still admonishing the bible schools who are easing tuition because the degrees they are offering for a discounted price don't even seem worth it at any price, in my opinion.
I don't think they're "useless" degrees, but more specified degrees. For instance, in my church, you can't even begin to be a pastor unless you have achieved a four year degree...and it is much more favorable to have it from a Bible college. So it's not useless, but it definitely makes your opportunities fewer. But I'm sorry, even a philosophy degree from a secular school is going to make your job prospects fewer. However, if you attend a Bible college and want to be a pastor, that sounds like a pretty good path. Just like, if you attend the police academy and want to be a cop, it sounds like you're on the right path.
Here's the crazy thing. I was looking at a pastor's salary on job boards. I think it was like $40-50k, so it's definitely something you have to do because you're passionate about it, not because you want to make money. Similar to a teacher, but without as much vacation.
Without as much vacation???? ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Most pastors I've seen only work about four hours a week. They do absolutely nothing the rest of the week but surf the net, go to rotary meetings and other useless stuff.
Their jobs are paid vacations from start to finish!!
Crime does indeed pay!!
Yes, OldTimer, I am sure you have personally audited the work productivity of more than a handful of pastors. I am certain you are an expert in the field of clergy work ethics and time management.
And you have? Riiiight.
No, I'm not. But I'm not making outrageous claims about pastors working, according to you, at best, 20-28 hours a week. That's just so ridiculous it's not even worth debating.
I hit a nerve, didn't I? Well, isn't that a shame? "not even worth debating" LOL
Where did you come up with 20-28 hrs/wk? I said four hours a week.
If that's how you debate, forget it. YOU are not worth debating with.
Why not go out and interview some pastors? I've been a member of many churches. All of the pastors did next to nothing beyond the Sunday services. Prove me wrong. Go ahead. They'll be glad to tell you about how "busy" they are sitting on their duffs in this or that meeting, getting their names in the paper, "studying" or "composing" for next Sunday's sermon.
Really, your response tells me I hit the nail on the head. Pastoring is a plushy job with extremely few "duties", huge salaries, lots of perks, lots of available "contact" with the desired s.exual target of your choice, and all your followers treat you a million times better than you deserve.
And all you have to do is "wing it" with your "interpretation" of ambiguous doc.uments written thousands of years ago, act mysteriously and make mystical pronouncements.
Easy money. Little "work". Lots of free time. And your "20-28" hours a week looks like pretty shaky ground to hang your hat on.
So you throw up some ridicule to divert attention away from what you must be doing yourself. Good job, pastor. No one will ever guess you're just another fraud. LOL
If by "hitting a nerve" you mean "reading ludicrous and unfounded statements", then I suppose, yes. Oh you're right, I was giving your asinine babble more credit than it was worth. I read it as four hours a day, when you said four hours a week (which is where 20-28 hours a week came from, 4 hours a day times 5 days a week is 20, or 7 days a week is 28).
As for the rest, you obviously have no knowledge on the subject, have spoken to only a few pastors (who I doubt would say or report they only work four hours a week), and have an obvious dislike for Christianity as a whole. So keep on having your deluded viewpoint. I'm sure you are convincing many people to your opinion.
And again I challenge you to interview as many pastors as you can find. Most of them will have "plenty of time" to talk to you. LOL
I challenge you to interview as many pastors as you can find, because most (if not all) will deny they work more than four hours a week. Guaranteed. But yes, a pastor's job is to TALK to people, especially regarding matters of faith. That's their main job, to lead people in their spiritual path. Is that such a huge surprise? They're a spiritual leader of an organization. They are essentially a counselor for their congregants.
Their other jobs include managing the church staff, working with the church budget, writing sermons, facilitating outreach programs, setting up church classes, researching Biblical principles and other such things.
I doubt that can all be done within four hours a week.
Old Timer, you haven't seen many ministers if you think they work only 4 hours a week.
You're as full of crap as herbie.
OT the DA brays:Really, your response tells me I hit the nail on the head. Pastoring is a plushy job with extremely few "duties", huge salaries, lots of perks,
On what planet? This is laughable. "Huge salaries"? "Lots of perks"? What utter BS.
Cite your proof of this, and remember that your anecdotes aren't proof of anything, except that you're an idiot.
The highest paid salary I have seen advertised on the job seeking boards has been $40-50k. Don't you know? That's a HUGE salary. (insert sarcasm here)
"The highest paid salary I have seen advertised on the job seeking boards has been $40-50k. Don't you know? That's a HUGE salary."
Now factor in the house, if it's furnished, phone included and any other perks they get like clothing, etc...
You guys sure are making a lot of noise over this. I guess you're as bored as I am.
Well, in some cases I'm sure it's probably more than four hours a week. But "management"? Really?
You have to micro-manage those fat church ladies sitting in the outer office spending the day chatting? Really?
And it takes more than an hour or two a month to organize and pay your utility bills? Really?
As for "outreach" what a laugh! LOL
What outreach have I ever seen outside of a church? Almost none.
Setting up church classes takes all of five minutes.
Printing the weekly newsletter might take a while, like a few hours for your secretary unless you're bored of posting comments here and want something to do.
As for writing sermons, most pastors have thousands of sermons already written they can choose from free of charge.
Really, it's just a lot of "looking busy" while sitting in a special office in a special building so everyone can't see you sitting on your ass surfing pron on the web. Most churches have minimal staff, one building, a small pile of bills to be paid once a month, and any activities, outreach, etc are done by volunteers and not necessarily the pastor.
Really you guys need to get out more. Your loud whining shows me I'm hitting bulls-eyes over and over again.
I am never disappointed in my expectations of con-artists and swindlers when I see them defended the way you guys have done here. Total frauds defending other frauds.
Your empty souls are just twisting in the wind at this point. That much is clear.
I believe Tom Tom covered your last post.
"Cite your proof of this, and remember that your anecdotes aren't proof of anything, except that you're an idiot."
How ironic that a religious believer will not accept anecdotal evidence or hyperbole as proof when that all they do with their religious beliefs.
Amazing irony here. I'm just savoring it like a good bowl of soup. LOL
Okay, after a good laugh I'm willing to admit that I made a blanket statement when I shouldn't have at the beginning.
But there ARE priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. who do next to nothing in terms of hours actually "worked".
And neither of you has bothered to address ANY of my other points.
And when religion is just a scam from beginning to end, what does it matter how many billable hours there are for the swindlers running the show?
I think that's what got me riled up. The fact that these people are getting paid for nothing but a fake religion while looking very busy pretending or believing in something that is demonstrably false.
I resent any con-artist swindling people out of their money. Fifty thousand dollars IS a lot of money for doing make-believe play-acting, sincere or not. Considering that you cannot even prove that any of these pastors, etc, actually believe in your "god" the whole thing is quite ridiculous and criminally insane.
Just remember that the next time some priest or pastor stands before you. They could be a nasty swindling atheist taking easy advantage of you and you would never be able to tell.
Never. And you wallow in it. Who's the idiot here? Not me.
"But there ARE priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. who do next to nothing in terms of hours actually "worked"."
THIS, I will accept. Because there are clergy who are bad at doing their jobs, just like every other profession out there.
The rest of your last post (and most of the rest of them) is conjecture and your opinion, masquerading as fact. I can respect it's your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.
So now YOU are putting forth conjecture and opinion and stating it as fact. Good, good. Your journey to the Dark Side is almost complete....
And you still refuse to address anything else I said other than to dismiss it without proof to the contrary.
Good call. You would have lost for sure. Yes, it's better to take what small victory you can find and run away. Smart thinking there.
I'm just typing this stuff out for other people anyway. I knew YOU can't handle the truth anyway. You never can, can you?
First of all, you moron, I'm not a religious believer.
Now, either provide your credible evidence or admit you're an azz and a liar.
You are also an idiot as concerns debate. You made the claim; the onus is on you to man up and grow a set. When can I expect that to occur, OT?
@Now: Oh, my gosh! What a money-grubbing bunch these ministers must be! They get a house! And a salary!
You are another moron if you think for a moment that most pastors are wallowing in money. Idiots like you amaze me. You're the same dolts who yammer on about "huge" teacher salaries and "fat pensions".
You know absolutely zip, nada, nothing, you dimbulb. Puling f*c kwit.
And really, Nownut, "clothing"? WHAT clothing? Do you mean the religious clothing worn for services?
You dope. Do you think they are wearing that to the grocery store?
What a freakin' idiot.
Do you know what the word "conjecture" means? Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary: "inference from defective or presumptive evidence" (note, my statement is the opposite of "conjecture" because I am citing my source.)
None of what I said is conjecture. I stated there are bad people in every profession, including clergy (fact). I stated that you have an opinion (fact). You are enti.tled to that opinion (fact). I don't agree with you (fact).
They aren't part of the 1%, but I won't stay up nights worrying about how pastors make ends meet.
Pastors do a lot better than public school teachers:
Pastors do significantly better than registered nurses:
I don't stay up nights worrying about it, either, but apparently, OldNutjob does.
I know many ministers who work significantly harder than some of the desk jockeys I know who make a lot more dough.
OldFa rt blows one:Who's the idiot here? Not me.
Yeah, it is you. Really, dude, if you were any dumber, we'd have to water you.
The Tom Tom I remember was a clever fellow with a twinkle in his eye. I think this must be an imposter.
The old Tom wouldn't have attacked his friends so quickly before over silly crap.
I guess this is herbie up to his old tricks again. herbie I wish you would find somewhere else to play your cheap lulz.
No, it's me-if you're an old friend, then stop changing your moniker. And it's not 'silly crap' when you paint a whole group with a broad brush as OT did.
Tom, I will always try to be as honest in my opinions as possible. I often use hyperbole and exaggeration in order to get my point across. If you can't see that I already backed off and modified my position to include all variants of whatever group you are screeching about, then I guess I'll just have to live with your misunderstanding and lack of tolerance for your own biased and incorrect results while I get the shlt. Oh, well.