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December 27th, 2011
02:09 PM ET
Charismatic movement growing quickly worldwideBy Stacey Samuel, CNN Laurel, Maryland (CNN) - At the end of a row of neatly arranged banquet chairs, Sandra Ashford sat reverently, still in awe of what she says is her mother’s miraculous recovery from cervical spinal stenosis. “If it wasn’t my mother,” Ashford said, “I wouldn’t believe it." She explained how after a “laying of hands,” her 74-year-old mother, Delsie McDougall, no longer experiences the symptoms from what was becoming a debilitating condition. When she arrived in early December from her native Jamaica in search of treatment options, McDougall said, she couldn’t “walk straight.” When her neurologist prescribed surgery, she sought an alternative, one more in keeping with her faith. On the recommendation of a friend, mother and daughter experienced their first charismatic healing service in the rented ballroom of a Holiday Inn in Laurel, Maryland. On a Sunday evening a few weeks before Christmas, the two spent several hours in the temporary location of the Everlasting Life Christian Center. CNN's Belief Blog – all the faith angles to the day's top stories “To tell you the truth, I was very skeptical,” McDougall said as she stood and swayed to the live music from the gospel singers. She showed no signs of physical discomfort.  Sandra Ashford, right, and her mother, left, attend a healing service in Maryland. They are among a fast-growing number within the diverse Christian landscape to join the charismatic movement. According to a recent Pew Research Center report on Global Christianity, 305 million Christians worldwide follow the charismatic movement. “One of the reasons the charismatic movement is expanding … apart from salvation, we experience healing, miracles. The blind see, the lame get up and walk, and the deaf can hear. That attracts a lot of people,” said Samuel Fatoki, who leads the roughly 200-member church with his wife, Marcia, who serves as his co-pastor. Ashford recounted how on the third application of Fatoki’s hands on her mother, McDougall fell to the ground and began speaking in tongues. Ashford said her mother writhed on the floor, contorting in ways she couldn’t stretch before. Both said she’s been walking upright since. The Pew report categorizes charismatic Christians as a subset among non-Pentecostal denominations and includes Christians from each of the major branches: Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. The movement shares similar beliefs to Pentecostal denominations and similar practices like “divine healing, prophecy and speaking in tongues,” according to the report. Dale Stoffer, professor of historical theology and academic dean at Ashland Theological Seminary in Ohio, said the charismatic movement has been present in the United States since the 1960s. The religious experience in the movement is more experiential, rather than based in intellectual expression. “There’s a high degree of emphasis on the Holy Spirit working in supernatural ways,” Stoffer added. While the movement is growing here in the United States, there’s been an “explosion in Christianity,” Stoffer said, in Africa, Latin America and Asia: regions of the world that have seen increased numbers of charismatic Christians. A Pew Forum survey from 2006 found that 34% of Brazil's population identified themselves as charismatics. “These are cultures that have not been impacted by the Western Enlightenment,” explained Stoffer. A basic tenet in this healing ministry is complete belief, invoking one’s blind faith. “And the signs shall follow them that believe, they will heal the sick, lay hands, cast out demons in my name,” Marcia Fatoki recited from the Gospel of Mark. She said she also shares her husband’s ability to prophesy.  Pastor Samuel Fatoki listens to his wife speak at a recent service. Both asserted that they are not the purveyors of the miracles. “We’re not the ones healing,” Samuel Fatoki said. They are just the vehicles through which the Holy Spirit is working. But it’s not a gift that can be called upon on command, like magic, as a skeptic may expect to see in order to be convinced. “People’s faith level increases with more examples from others,” Marcia Fatoki said. At a time when individual tribulations seem to have grown with increasingly difficult economic times, it’s no wonder that the ballroom was filled with at least 200 people from as far as New York, New Jersey and Virginia, many with testimonies of being cured of ailments from chronic sinus issues and financial woes, to smoking cessation and the disappearance of tumors. So, what happens when neither of the Fatokis is able to heal someone? Samuel Fatoki said that that too is out of his hands, and it is the will of God. But for Sandra Ashford and her mother, what they have seen is enough to inspire a deepening of their faith. “To witness a family member go through this speaks volumes,” Ashford said, still giddy that more than three weeks later, her mother is still pain-free and walking with ease. “It is the will of God that everyone be healed,” Samuel Fatoki said.
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Ohhh delusion is spreading across the USA , nothing new....
The only delusion that is spreading is the delusion of naturalism and secularism...It takes quite a few intellectual hoops to jump through to arrive at atheism, but people still do it because they prefer a life where they are fully in control.
nonbelief is a default position if there is no proof of claims, and that's the case when it comes to the existence of GOD... There is no proof or any evidence which would support the claim that a GOD exists, especially the personal GOD Christianity has been talking about. SO my friend , arriving at atheism is rather simple... Believing in unsupported nonsense is a delusion...
@brutus, you got evidence? can you support your claims that your God exists? no.. then as the great Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and since you don't have any, your claims can be simply dismissed...
If you take a general census of the world today I think you will find that theism is the default position...Less than 3% of the world actually hold to atheism...
@brutus, the default position does not mean the most popular position, but how would you know that if you failed logic 101...
Everyone is born an atheist and then your are indoctrinated into the religion/cult of your parents. If you are in the US the cult is most likely christianity. If you are in Iran then you will most likely become a Muslim. If you are lucky you will learn to think for yourself and deconvert back to an atheist or at least escape from the cult.
"...I think you will find that theism is the default position..."
People who are religious overwhelmingly adopt the religion of their parents. Is it your position that this happens by accident?
It is self-evident that religion is taught, not something that is inherent within humans. The default is therefore atheism.
@SEQLAR I personally find the usual reasoning for the existence of God, the cosmological argument, the moral, argument, and the design argument more compelling than any argument for materialism. In fact, though faith in God and in Jesus in particular is difficult, the argument for a purely material universe I find to be insane. So if you wish to conjure up our dear Dr. Sagan ask him for the extraordinary evidence he might have for his extraordinary claim that the cosmos is all there is, has been or ever will be.
However, as for extraordinary evidence, I think that Jesus is that evidence. A close, careful look at Jesus has convinced more than one determined skeptic.
I
@SEQLAR. Non-belief in God is in fact our default position. That is totally biblical. But atheism is not. We are born believing that we are gods. When we find that not to be so, we make gods for ourselves, gods of silver and gold, gods of nature, or in Sagan's case, the whole cosmos. (Gotta hand it to him, he did have a big god.) We are incurably religious, even when we deny it. But it is not God we believe in. No we are born with an antagonism to that God. We are convinced he is our enemy, and we go about most of our lives making him so. Or so says the Bible.
The tragic irony is that we are wrong. We are not the gods of our lives. There are no gods of silver or gold. The cosmos is uncaring and cold. All those gods fail us in the end. There is only one God, a God who loves us and reaches out to us in love, yet we hate Him. Sad.
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This news is related to WHITES AREN’T WELCOME IN AMERICA ANY LONGER !!! OUT OF AMERICA WITH WHITES NOW !!! http://www.youtube.com/user/BostjanAvsec OR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xGfYOAydjw
I can almost make out what you're saying.
@Norman – I think it's some kind of code!
I suggest you wrap your head in tin foil (to block the CIA brainwaves) and go back on your meds.
Leave it to Christians to come up with such ridiculous stupidity. I've never heard of such bizarre nonsense since GW Bush left office.
Like what? You didn't really say what bugged you.
If you haven't heard such stupidity since George W Bush, have someone (if you have someone) read your own post to you.
I've seen people be healed before in church when I went to a charismatic church for about a year while in grad school. Mainline Protestant churches don't put emphasis on that as a part of a worship service so you need to go to the right church to see it. But there are many similar testimonies that you will continue to ignore. They are out there if you look.
Hi BigRed, I've read through the replies, yours and theirs. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle being a convert to RC plus having been involved in the renewal for a short time. I would just suggest trying to open to the possibility there might be something here that cannot be explained by us. I have no proof of anything. I just 'know' there's something more than I can see. Give a listen to Billy Joel's tune "Shades of Gray".
As someone who has personally known people healed from stage 4 cancer...God truly is moving. Regardless of what simpletons state about why isn't everyone healed, the key is that God does at times step into our universe and do the miraculous.
Yes, Peter Pan did that to.
"As someone who has personally known people healed from stage 4 cancer."
what are the names and hospitals they were treated in?
yeah... God healed few who had cancer but doesn't have time to actually help out other millions of people starving to death, dying of other diseases or natural disasters... but he does come down to earth to heal some person from the cancer, a more naturalistic is not good enough , body healing itself , no that doesn't happen , only JESUS' healing is the only explanation.. right... stupid sheep.
My voodoo dolls have healed many also... and have punished others. We are running a year-end special on them - wanna buy a few?
Its ridiculous arguing with such closed minded individuals, but I will attempt anyways. No doctor would tell you that a body heals itself from stage 4 cancer, (likewise I have witnessed others healed from various illnesses). Likewise the argument that some people are healed while others are not has no implications on what is true or what is not. Just because you do not understand why some are healed and some are not has no bearing on validity. We must remember that in light of eternity, the things that happen here are brief, yet have implications that we cannot fully grasp
When has your God ever cured a child with Down's Syndrome?
Stephen Roberts I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours
Oh, well, if brutus claims to know unnamed people and provides no further evidence for his claim...well, then, I'd better change my entire worldview!
Got any, I don't know there champ...actual empirical evidence that these people were cured?
Lying for Jesus is still lying.
God loves to heal that cancer, doesn't he? When's the last time he healed...oh, I don't know...an amputee? Someone with Downs or any other genetic disorder?
And what about all those that believe in god and ask, beg, plead, and pray for his help to cure their cancer and still die? Just part of his secret plan? Their faith not strong enough? He just play favorites?
Sure it wasn't because of chemotherapy, radiation, and all the other medically-accepted treatments for cancer that cured them?
And we are still waiting for the first regenerated limb...
While we are waiting medical people working with God's partnership have learned to reattach severed limbs. Many body parts are being grown experimentally and it may not be too long before God"s knowledge given to man does cross the threshold of regeneration. What would you complain about then?
"medical people working with god's partnership"...lol...so that's how you maintain your delusion? I hope you're not that gullible in matters where it's really important.
If your god has this knowledge, why doesn't he share it now so that innocent people do not have to go through the pain of losing a limb? For that matter, why does your god allow innocent people to lose limbs in the first place? If you are going to reply with something like "free will" or "god works in mysterious ways" please try to come up with something more compelling.
God gives gifts to mankind in the form of knowledge. Many scientists and inventors have acknowledged God's presence with them in their discoveries. Others have acknowledged that even in their greatest achievements there was someone there before them. Who might that unknown personage be? Those who know and love Him call Him God.
As to your question, why don't you ask Him?
An inconvenient truth must be the dumbest and most brainwashed individual I've ever seen... wow!! delusion has no limits...
Ok...
Hey god, please tell me why you allow innocents to suffer the lose of a limb. While I also asked this question in a personal prayer to you, feel free to reply here, including the secret pass phrase I gave you, so that we know no-one is pretending to be you.
HotAirAce
May it be returned in Truth to you.
A legitimate response here would have much greater effect.
?
Why don't I ask "god?" Give me his/her/their telephone numbers so that I am not talking to myself.
Stephen Roberts I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours
A legitimate response by god here would have much greater effect.
No god has replied to my personal prayer or posting here. I'll give them another day or two before declaring it/he/she/them "missing in action."
Still no answer...
It could be years before you have the ability to receive the answer .There is one.You are not to put the Lord your God to the test.
Here fred..
The so called worldview that you may have – it is the makeup of your own opinions – built up to the current second of your own individual life. The maximum number of people that one person can possibly be expected to associate with does not even equate to beyond a total of 10,00 people. You haven't even gotten out of your own country maybe. Maybe not even out of your state. You haven't talked nor never have really talked nor listened to anything but from a religious view all your life. You haven't even talked really with a women.
Name the stuff you have a firm knowledge of. Politics? Philosophy? Physics? How about a sport? A specific craft? Worldview is the position of an idiot who likes to think that he is cool or better – it is just a facade for anyone to just be pretentious.
As per usual fred .. all your jibe and stupidity leads right back at the bible. That is all you ever will be able to put forth.
If it isn't about reading the bible, it is certainly about advocating the reading of it. You have and will always be a useless being fred.
I wonder how many people, who now reside in cemeteries, would still be alive today if they underwent legitimate medical treatment based on science, instead of relying on this ancient mumbo-jumbo. PT Barnum was absolutely correct.
"One of the reasons the charismatic movement is expanding … apart from salvation, we experience healing, miracles. The blind see, the lame get up and walk, and the deaf can hear. That attracts a lot of people"
Yeah....Check back with them in 48 hours, after the "Jesus Juice" has worn off, and see if the lame are still walking and the blind still seeing...
Simpletons.
Well everyone knows that once your symptoms return that just Satan returning to tempt your faith...
And if after 48 hours they are still healed..what then?
"apart from salvation, we experience healing, miracles. The blind see, the lame get up and walk, and the deaf can hear. That attracts a lot of people"
It's not a miracle, it has to do with the brain. The more people learn about how powerful our brains are the more they realize if we focus on specific things, we can heal ourselves. The problem is religious nuts are keeping people from moving forward in this area because of their need to believe it's a god and not ourselves. It's only a matter of time before that mystery is unlocked.
Cynical sin-nics will alway resort to name-calling when they don't understand or believe in the divinity of God. My testimony is similar to Ms. Ashford's and the results have been long-lasting. I was born with a congenital defect that manifested itself in many ways – including a psychological and medical/physiological phenomenon known as enuresis (more commonly, bedwetting). It plagued me all my life and my parents and myself, when I got older (I am now in my 60's), spent thousands of dollars on doctors and psychiatrists and medications, with no cure. It was not until I attended one of those healing sessions about 9years ago, and was asked to lay my own hands on the area of my body that was in need of healing that I was cured. I have a Master's Degree in Psychology, partly because of my interest in the connection of the brain to certain illnesses like mine, so I was not without skepticism when I attended the session. And no, the healing was not instantaneous nor was it accompanied by any histrionics. But I am a believer in the divine healing power of God and I am living proof that it works. We are free to believe what we want in this country. I for one, prefer to believe that there are many modalities available for healing – some medical, some spiritual. I don't discount any of them. The spiritual healing I experienced came after many years and dollars spent on the medical. Nothing you can say, no name you can call me will change my belief that, in my case, the spiritual healing from God did what medical science could not!
Same old wine, just a different bottle.
It most likely won't happen, although it can, (ask Ron Halverson, he can be found on the Internet) if a miracle of God took place in a atheist's life, what would be their position on God?
well considering miracles are nothign more than statistical improbabilities, I would venture to say that if an atheist experienced a "miracle" they would consider statistics before even having a single thought about god.
We can have free will, or we can have miracles – we can't have both. God is responsible for everything that happens, or he's not. If he's meddling in our lives randomly, that takes away our ability to suffer our own consequences.
@Fookin' “We can have free will, or we can have miracles – we can't have both. God is responsible for everything that happens, or he's not.”
You are either high on something bad, or you have no idea what you are saying. I'm presuming that by free will, you mean freedom of choice; I'm not sure. Nor am I sure what you mean by that: “God is responsible for everything that happens, or he's not.” If God has given His creatures “freedom of choice”, He is not responsible for their choice.
Having faith in God does not include a life of of ease, nor has God promised a life of freedom from trouble, sickness or death; indeed, becoming a Christian almost a guarantees a life of trouble, because Satan, the wicket enemy of Christ and His followers, wishes to destroy them all.
God has given Satan much freedom to practice his evil intentions so the universe may witness the results of sin.
It is Satan that is “meddling in our lives randomly”, not God. God can chose to overrule Satan and reverse what Satan has done and sometimes that requires faith and a miracle.
God will allow sin to fester in this world until it nearly completely destroys mankind and the earth. One of the problems of the wickedness of men is the failure, through the influence of Satan, to recognize the wickedness of sin for what it is.
When Christ returns to claim His own He will then put an end to sin and all evil, and sin and it will never again be found in the universe.
We, you and I, are here today to prove to the universe whether evil or good can long endure.
Crazy much?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omy24KC3LzU&feature=player_detailpage
Cheers!
The roots of American yodeling.
Healings!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BCohlCPSLlo
The Evangelicals are crazy. They are deluded.
Cheers!
You seem to have a great deal of fear concerning the truth of the bible.
"You seem to have a great deal of fear concerning the truth of the bible."
There is no truth to the bible, it's a man made book created for fools.
@fred
You said: "You seem to have a great deal of fear concerning the truth of the bible."
The bible was made up by men. The Christian god is very unlikely.
No, no fear. I find their antics hilarious.
Cheers!
Actually
there is a lot of truth in the Bible. Why do you focus in on the parts you cannot understand rather than those parts you can understand?
"Why do you focus in on the parts you cannot understand rather than those parts you can understand?"
There is no god, which makes your bible complete nonsense.
fred all atheists are terrified of Truth. The fact that God is disarms their every argument and causes them to try to hide from Truth whenever possible. This david johnson fellow is a known liar. Lying is just another form of hiding as is mocking which is what he is selectively trying to do here. Truth be told this world would be a better and safer place if ancient civilizations had all made atheism a capital offense and humankind had continued that practice until today. Think of the millions of victims that would have been able to lead full productive lives if mankind had executed a few ne'er do well atheists along the way.
What retarded religious people fail to understand is that the bible 'stole' most of the good saying and incorporated them into itself. Those good saying do not belong to the bible – they belong to the men who openly contributed their goodness for all of mankind.
The bible is utter crap. Those that keep on saying the bible is truth are perpetually lying to themselves to make them feel good about being deluded.
David
How is the antics at a football game do not bother you yet Christian antics do? Next time your at game please notice only a few run through the infield naked and you do never suggest all fans are the same. You are in denial of your bias, get a hold of it or you will soon be running through the football field naked with a Dawkins Bible in your hand.....proclaiming Dawkins lives and I am proof
@fred
Religious people like you fear the wisdom of evidence. Dawkins presents it. Up to you now to read up on it and change your pathetic life.
"fred all atheists are terrified of Truth. The fact that God is disarms their every argument and causes them to try to hide from Truth whenever possible. This david johnson fellow is a known liar. Lying is just another form of hiding as is mocking which is what he is selectively trying to do here. Truth be told this world would be a better and safer place if ancient civilizations had all made atheism a capital offense and humankind had continued that practice until today. Think of the millions of victims that would have been able to lead full productive lives if mankind had executed a few ne'er do well atheists along the way."
That's why more and more people who are christian are found to be liars, cons or pedophiles. The truth YOU fear the most is the atheists are actually right, there is no god, never was. It can be shown that many parts of your bible were stolen from other religions of that time period. Look at the birth of christ you just celebrated, he wasn't even born in december, only a true idiot who doesn't know how to actually read would believe that LIE!
Answer
Christians have seen the evidence you claim and have a complete world view. Your world view is bias because you can only see part of what is.
"Your world view is bias because you can only see part of what is."
The "what is" part is all made up in your head, so there is no seeing that part. You're the one who is bias, not the other way around.
Worldview? That is so laughable.
Explain your worldview.
Answer, Actually
There is truth in the Bible and that truth has been a guiding light to millions upon millions of people over the years. The fact you cannot find any truth whatsoever in the Bible is a warning sign that you are the ones with serious issues not Christians. I can understand evolution, big bang and even where Sue is comming from yet still find truth in the Bible. You are both very self limiting. Why would you or do you limit your experience on earth with your thoughts that Dawkins borrowed from the Greeks?
'It's fun for me to come here and have all the answers; my worldview is the only worldview, and there's no way I can understand how arrogant and nutty I sound. The inside of my head is nothing but a low buzzing noise that is occasionally broken up into bible quotes. trollolololol.'
Answer
World View: We are here for only small speck of time. I say small relative to 13.7 billion years known time. That brief moment is all God needs to prove His judgment correct as far as who we really are. There are two kinds of hearts in this world just as there were two trees in the Garden of Eden, two sons of Abraham and two criminals on the cross alongside Christ. To the one who simply said “we deserve this you do not” Jesus said today you will be paradise with me. To the other who mocked Jesus with his last breath Jesus said nothing and nothing could ever be said to bring about a new heart in that man.
"There is truth in the Bible and that truth has been a guiding light to millions upon millions of people over the years."
No, it's all about your chemicals in the brain fred, that is what has been bringing about morality to humanity. There is no god, therefore your book is crap.
"The bible was made up by men. The Christian god is very unlikely."
No evidence for the above. As usual.
Actually
“That's why more and more people who are christian are found to be liars, cons or pedophiles.”
=> I doubt the % is significantly different for non believers. That was the point of Gospel showing we are all sinners saved by Grace.
“The truth YOU fear the most is the atheists are actually right, there is no god, never was.”
=>How would that impact a true believer in anyway whatsoever? We die with our eyes on Jesus and hope for a joyous new life. If it turns out to be a bust we will never know it.
“ It can be shown that many parts of your bible were stolen”
=>The Bible is a story of a chosen people which may have been similar to other peoples in many regards. Not stolen. My story of conversion is similar to others but, that does not make it stolen or any less true.
“Look at the birth of christ you just celebrated, he wasn't even born in december, only a true idiot who doesn't know how to actually read would believe that LIE!”
=>The vast majority of Christians are well aware of the fact we do not know the time of birth.
“How would that impact a true believer in anyway whatsoever? We die with our eyes on Jesus and hope for a joyous new life. If it turns out to be a bust we will never know it.”
People who don’t believe as you do live joyous lives too, you don’t need a god for that.
“The Bible is a story of a chosen people which may have been similar to other peoples in many regards. Not stolen. “
The bible is a work of fiction, it’s not true, which is why they stole from other religions in writing it that is plagiarism, or don’t you understand that concept.
“The vast majority of Christians are well aware of the fact we do not know the time of birth.”
Many theologians have stated it couldn’t have been in the winter because of the shepherds being in the fields, it would be too cold for them to be there during that time. So your xmas is a fake holiday just like the rest of your religion.
Lycidas
I agree, what is interesting is that atheists always limit what is considered acceptable evidence according to their world view. We have millions of new witnesses every year that the words of Christ are powerful and living to bring about change in lives and open eyes and ears to the truth. All those personal testimonies are excluded and worse yet mocked
"No evidence for the above. As usual."
What evidence do you have to the contrary to prove it false.
Acutally....
“People who don’t believe as you do live joyous lives too, you don’t need a god for that.”
True but, that is for a speck in time which is meaningless relative to eternity or 13.7billion years
“the bible is a work of fiction, it’s not true, which is why they stole from other religions in writing it that is plagiarism, or don’t you understand that concept.”
Plagiarism is a stretch and even today the writers would not be accused of that. There are differences in all the accounts, many significant. How many virgin births were celebrated two days ago and by how many people? You know the real one from the imitation which is why you are bothered by Christmas and the Bible.
“Many theologians have stated it couldn’t have been in the winter because of the shepherds being in the fields, it would be too cold for them to be there during that time. So your xmas is a fake holiday just like the rest of your religion.”
As I said we do not know the time of birth only celebrate the event. We could have chosen March or September to celebrate but, as you know that was a church/ political decision not a Biblical one.
“True but, that is for a speck in time which is meaningless relative to eternity or 13.7billion years”
There is no proof you get to spend eternity in heaven, it’s a man made concept.
“How many virgin births were celebrated two days ago and by how many people? You know the real one from the imitation which is why you are bothered by Christmas and the Bible.”
Are you really that naive? Come on really? Dude – it’s a marketing scheme, just like in the past. Religious people are the most gullible group and what better way to sell your products. The original Christians didn’t even celebrate your christs birth. It’s all a market ploy to sell goods and services.
“As I said we do not know the time of birth only celebrate the event. We could have chosen March or September to celebrate but, as you know that was a church/ political decision not a Biblical one.”
Which is why this whole thing is a man made concept.
@Lycidas
Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.
No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist. I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we see in the world around us.
In the real world, any object that provides no evidence for its existence is classified as imaginary.
I think we can rule out god, in the same way we rule out any other mythological creature. I can't prove vampires or werewolves or fairies don't exist. But, I bet you would agree, that they are not real. They just don't fit in with the reality we see all around us.
Skepticism is the adult response to anything, for which there is no evidence. Only children under the age of 6, should suspend their critical thinking and believe in magic.
I bet you don't believe in Zeus, or Isis, or Allah, or Krishna. Right? They just don't seem "real". There just isn't any evidence... Except the universe must have a creator. Something can't come from nothing.
So, we can look for attributes of the Christian god, that should provide evidence that He exists. Sort of like measuring the direction and force of the wind...
If positive evidence is found, we should conclude that god probably exists.
If positive evidence is not found, then we should conclude that the Christian God, beyond a reasonable doubt, does not exist. Just like Santa. Just like fairies. Just like vampires. Just like the other gods you reject?
One of the most compelling reasons for rejecting a god, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.). Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong.
Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps the one true god does not exist.
Christians claim their god is Omnipotent ( all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all good).
1). If god is Omnibenevolent, He would WANT every human to believe in Him.
The bible says He does:
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. King James Version (KJV)
1 Timothy 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. King James Version (KJV)
2.) If god is Omniscient, then He would KNOW exactly how to convince anyone and everyone that He exists.
3.) If god is Omnipotent, then He would be ABLE to convince anybody and everybody that He exists.
Yet, ~ 67% of the world's population are not Christians.
Therefore, the Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
In the same vein as the above, notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000 – World Christian Encyclopedia (2001)).
Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.
All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.
If the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?
The bible says:
1 Corinthians 14:33 – KJV
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Christians believe god's purpose in creating the Bible is to guide human beings towards a knowledge of God, and to help them lead moral lives. If this is so, then Christians MUST be certain of the meaning of the Bible.
ambiguity – a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression.
"There are in excess of 1,000 Christian faith groups in North America. They teach diverse beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, the second coming, Heaven, Hell, the rapture, criteria for salvation, speaking in tongues, the atonement, what happens to persons after death, and dozens of other topics.
On social controversies, faith groups teach a variety of conflicting beliefs about abortion access, equal rights for ho_mo$exuals and bi$exuals, who should be eligible for marriage, the death penalty, physician assisted suicide, human $exuality topics, origins of the universe, and dozens of other topics.
The groups all base their theological teachings on the Bible. Generally speaking, the theologians in each of these faith groups are sincere, intelligent, devout, thoughtful and careful in their interpretation of the Bible. But, they come to mutually exclusive conclusions about what it teaches.
Further, most are absolutely certain that their particular interpretations are correct, and that the many hundreds of faith groups which teach opposing beliefs are in error." Source: Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
If the bible is ambiguous, then it cannot be said to be inerrant. If the bible is not without error, then how do we know which parts to accept as truth and which to reject as fiction? Is the will of god, subjective?
The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
Another reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one. Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled. So far, science has found no need for a god. The claim, that God Did It, has always been wrong in the past. On this issue, I think the future will look a lot like the past.
Belief without a reason or evidence, is called "delusional".
Christians often quote:
John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If the Christian god so loves the world, why does he allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc., ad nauseum. ?
I can explain the existence of these horrors as being due to natural causes and evolution, but my explanation fails when I include an all loving Creator in the equation. I keep getting a "Can't divide by zero" error.
Christians say their god is omnibenevolent (all good); omnipotent (all powerful); omniscient ( all knowing)
1. If the Christian god is all knowing, He would be AWARE of all the suffering on earth.
2. If the Christian god is all good, He would WANT to rid the world of suffering / evil.
3. If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be ABLE to rid the world of suffering / evil.
4. Yet, evil persists.
Therefore, The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.
If the Christian god is all knowing, if the future can be known, then even god would be bound by events in the future. Everything would be predetermined.
1. If the Christian god, knows what will happen in the future, and does something else...then, He is not all knowing.
2. If the Christian god knows the future and cannot change it, then He is not all powerful.
3. The attributes attributed to the Christian god conflict with one another.
The Christian god with these attributes cannot exist. No being can have these attributes at the same time.
Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.
If god created all the organisms on the planet, then He must have created even the diseases that have caused and are causing so much death and misery for humans and animals. He would have had to fashion the tick and the flea. The mosquito and blood flukes. And worms that bore into a child's eye.
How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering? Yet, these horrors exist. And if god didn't create them, who did?
Evolution explains the diversity of the planet's organisms, including the pathogens and the parasites that have caused so much human death and misery.
If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.
If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.
If there was no original sin, then it cannot be the reason god allows so much suffering in the world. Instead, there are natural causes for earthquakes and floods and other disasters.
If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.
If there was no redeemer, then Christianity is a based on a false premise.
"If we cannot believe in the First Adam, why believe in the Last [Christ]?" 1 Corinthians15:45
If the Creation story is a myth, then there is no reason to believe any of the bible, for the entire bible is based on Genesis.
If we evolved, there is no soul –> no afterlife –> no need of a heaven or hell.
LOL, which is why the Creationists fight so hard against evolution. And why many Evangelicals are reinterpreting Genesis to encompass an old earth.
Let's see... "And there was evening and there was morning, one day." – Umm... That's millions of years to you and me!
The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, or talking snakes, or Allah, or Zeus or Santa. And you don't believe in any of those, Right?
Cheers!
David Johnson
“Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.”
=>Jesus personally changed my life exactly as He stated in the New Testament. After the Holy Spirit was received I saw the truth in the Bible I could not see before.
“No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist.”
=> The problem is you demand God prove himself in your acceptable ways, which he will not do and does not need to.
“I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist.”
=>Bad example as we know the complete story.
“ But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we see in the world around us.”
=>That is right and you choose not to see God so you make up excuses like a drug addict covering up his habit.
‘In the real world, any object that provides no evidence for its existence is classified as imaginary.”
=>In 10,000 years no one will know who you are or were. Guess you are imaginary.
“Skepticism is the adult response to anything, for which there is no evidence.”
=>Within limits. When you say things like Jesus never existed you lose all credibility.
“One of the most compelling reasons for rejecting a god, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s).”
=>You confuse man made god(s) with the true God as revealed to us.
Hey Fred, knowing how the body works, please explain to me how Lot was able to get so drunk as to not recognize his own daughters but is still able to "perform?" Yup, your beliefs are pretty vile. Infanticide is another favorite of your God of the bible.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours, – Stephen Roberts
“The problem is you demand God prove himself in your acceptable ways, which he will not do and does not need to.”
That’s just the excuse religious nuts like you say because your god doesn’t exist.
“Bad example as we know the complete story.”
Yours is even worse since the stories of Christ were written long after he was dead, we know the complete story on him too – he’s dead, just like Santa Claus
“That is right and you choose not to see God so you make up excuses like a drug addict covering up his habit.”
Just like you make up excuses for your god. That’s right you choose not to see Tinker Bell so you make up excuses like the drug addict you are.
“You confuse man made god(s) with the true God as revealed to us.”
If you asked the religious nuts of the past they would say their gods were revealed to them too.
@fred
I said: “Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.”
You replied: "Jesus personally changed my life exactly as He stated in the New Testament. After the Holy Spirit was received I saw the truth in the Bible I could not see before.
People convert to Islam all the time. They believe their lives have been changed.
What evidence do you have that your god is exists and the Muslim god and Hindu gods do not?
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I said: “No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist.”
You replied: " The problem is you demand God prove himself in your acceptable ways, which he will not do and does not need to."
You are an idiot. Read my sentence again.
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I said: “I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist.”
You replied: "Bad example as we know the complete story."
Choose your own example: I can't prove a vampire, fairy, leprechaun, etc. does not exist. As I said, no one can prove a negative.
_____________________________________________
I said: “ But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we see in the world around us.”
You replied: "That is right and you choose not to see God so you make up excuses like a drug addict covering up his habit."
No, in the real world, prayer does not work; There are multiple versions of the one true god. Which one, if any, is real?; Why do only 33% of the world's population believe in the Christian god?; Why are there 38,000 different denominations of Christianity in the world?; The bible is ambiguous. It cannot be said to be inerrant. How are we to know what is the true will of god?; God is said to love the world. Why does He allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc?; We evolved, there is no soul –> no afterlife –> no need of a heaven or hell.
I see all these things in the world. God is very likely to exist.
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I said: "In the real world, any object that provides no evidence for its existence is classified as imaginary.”
You replied: "In 10,000 years no one will know who you are or were. Guess you are imaginary."
I am not a god. I provide evidence for my existence now. Your argument is dumb.
There is also no evidence for dragons, people living in Middle Earth etc. No evidence, then no existence.
_________________________________________
I said: “Skepticism is the adult response to anything, for which there is no evidence.”
You replied: "Within limits. When you say things like Jesus never existed you lose all credibility."
But, when I say Allah or any of the Hindu gods never existed, I maintain my credibility. Right? You are a joke. Or do you believe in Allah or Krisha?
____________________________________________
I said:“One of the most compelling reasons for rejecting a god, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s).”
You replied: "You confuse man made god(s) with the true God as revealed to us."
That is so lame, dude. Prove that the other gods are "man made" but yours is real.
The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
Jesus was, is and always will be a myth. Just like the other gods.
Cheers!
“ If god is Omnibenevolent, He would WANT every human to believe in Him.”
=>Yes he wants all to believe, yet, an Omni benevolent God will not force you or trick you.
“If god is Omniscient, then He would KNOW exactly how to convince anyone and everyone that He exists.”
=>Yes, and because he is Omnibenevolent he calls all yet only a few are chosen. He knows his own children.
“If god is Omnipotent, then He would be ABLE to convince anybody and everybody that He exists.”
=>correct and the work was finished on the Cross.
“if the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?”
=>The Bible is written so that only those who truly seek will find salvation. Others such as you find what they are truly seeking also. Did you not find folly, error, lies and a sky fairy god?
“If the bible is ambiguous, then it cannot be said to be inerrant.”
=>Scripture as referred to by Jesus is inerrant. The Bible has been translated so we can read it yet it contains historic recordings, allegory and metaphor. Believers are given the Holy Spirit to bring all truth to their hearts. This is the reason all believers are united under God, not because we understand the words in the same manner. We are united in Christ because only Christ could make that possible given our sin nature. God is not going to sweat out catholic verses a Baptist etc.
“another reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one.”
=>Agreed, if you do not need saving you do not need a Savior.
“Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled.”
=>There is no end to this rabbit hole. Take the red pill
“If the Christian god so loves the world, why does he allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc., ad nauseum. ?”
=>Since you are speaking of God that answer can only make sense if you accept the Biblical truths as given by God not as you would have them. Since you dispute the very existence of Jesus you would waste your time to read my reply.
“I keep getting a "Can't divide by zero" error.”
=>You are the one who claims will be entering nothingness and the one who came from nothing.
“ He would be AWARE of all the suffering on earth. He would WANT to rid the world of suffering / evil. He would be ABLE to rid the world of suffering / evil. Yet, evil persists.”
=>The question of evil in the presence of God can only be answered in terms of God as revealed to us in the Bible. If you are willing to accept the Bible is the Word of God then you would hear the truth. I suspect you have heard the biblical explanation before and rejected it.
‘The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.”
=>You are putting mans limits on God which do not apply.
“If the Christian god is all knowing, if the future can be known, then even god would be bound by events in the future. Everything would be predetermined.”
=>Atheists must restrict Gods dimension of time to mans' time dimension for this argument.
“ If the Christian god, knows what will happen in the future, and does something else...then, He is not all knowing.”
=>There is no record of that so it is your hypothetical. Does not apply.
“ If the Christian god knows the future and cannot change it, then He is not all powerful.”
=>What makes you believe you are moving forward in time and that is the only direction? If the universe is regenerating as some atheist propose on this site then we are about to go back through the nothingness hole in space and come out the other end. Looking through that lens yesterday is actually tomorrow.
“ No being can have these attributes at the same time.”
=>correct, it is a God thing.
“Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.”
=>God can use any method or sequence desired to bring His redeemed about.
“If god created all the organisms on the planet, then He must have created even the diseases that have caused and are causing so much death and misery for humans and animals. He would have had to fashion the tick and the flea. The mosquito and blood flukes. And worms that bore into a child's eye.”
=>Yes (directly and or indirectly), keep in mind some were created and some were made (created heaven and earth and made man).
“How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering?”
=>you asked this already (answer depends on accepting the Bible as possible truth)
“Yet, these horrors exist. And if god didn't create them, who did?”
=>God created all things for the good of those who believe that all may come to the glory of God
“Evolution explains the diversity of the planet's organisms, including the pathogens and the parasites that have caused so much human death and misery.”
=>Evolution shows mans' current theory as to diversity not the cause of death and misery of man.
“If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.
If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.
If there was no original sin, then it cannot be the reason god allows so much suffering in the world. Instead, there are natural causes for earthquakes and floods and other disasters.
If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.
If there was no redeemer, then Christianity is a based on a false premise.
=>As in popular movie starring Tom Cruise as Jerry McGuire “you had me at IF.
‘Evangelicals are reinterpreting Genesis to encompass an old earth.
Let's see... "And there was evening and there was morning, one day." – Umm... That's millions of years to you and me!”
=>The Bible does not fix the time it was man that came up with 6,000 years, then started making up all kinds of stuff. The Bible stands and 6 days was very important in terms of the Bible not science.
“The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, or talking snakes, or Allah, or Zeus or Santa.”
=>God is very different from the rest. A unicorn could well be a rhino of types based on translation. Snakes don’t talk but serpents can dependent your allegorical or literal interpretation. Allah is a remake of God in Mohammed’s image. Zeus was pagan man made god and Santa came to my house a few days ago.
reality check
Don't drink if you're daughters were raised up in a city like Sodom.
David Johnson
"But, when I say Allah or any of the Hindu gods never existed, I maintain my credibility. Right? You are a joke. Or do you believe in Allah or Krisha? "
=>You lack faith as to God or any god which although consistent does not add to the credibility of someone that claims there never was a man named Jesus that was denied by Jews of his day. Oh, let's see proclaiming Jesus was just a good excuse for a Jew or Nero to kill people. Yeah, as I said get some history books and at least admit there was a Jesus but you question what he was. To state over and over again there was no Jesus is way out in left field somewhere.
Yes, I believe in Allah as described in the Jewish text acknowledging where Quran came from as well as some Hindu teachings that reflect Christ. Yet, there is only one God and Jesus was the full representation of God in a form man could understand.
“People convert to Islam all the time. They believe their lives have been changed.
What evidence do you have that your god is exists and the Muslim god and Hindu gods do not?”
=>There is only one God and God was revealed to me in Jesus and his words. After that I could also understand the God of Abraham. Muslims claim their God is that of Abraham thus they are more akin to the Jew in many respects as they deny Jesus was the Christ. As to the Hindu god there is a Gnostic gospel of Mary where Jesus was more a yogi as to the nature of sin. All three are revelations of God that man has taken into his own direction and build giant houses of religion out of. God was not happy with what religion does to or in the name of God. Times never change and neither do people.
“Choose your own example: I can't prove a vampire, fairy, leprechaun, etc. does not exist. As I said, no one can prove a negative.”
=>We have actual living witnesses of Gods truth, do you have some for leprechauns?
fred, you may have witnesses but you don't have any evidence or proof.
HotAirAce
We have a tumb unfortunately it is empty and the stone rolled away.
fred, you may have a tomb but you don't know whose it is. In any event, how would an empty tomb be evidence for any god?
HotAirAce
Just like the empty tomb God cannot be found in that which can be seen by the eyes of man. The faith of old was in a promise. That promise could not be seen as when Abraham left his known prosperous land for a promise from God. These old people lived off the land so leaving what was solid, known and prosperous was unheard of. They never saw the promise but generation after generation sought after it in faith.
Generations later the promise of a new kingdom under God would be ushered in the Messiah, a King, High Priest, and Savior of the chosen ones. That Messiah came, their long awaited promise arrived, King of Kings yet they could not see Him. The chosen ones were looking for a King like David that would destroy their enemies and rule with them. This Jesus did not look like what they wanted from a God. Their vision of God was a rich powerful warrior that would give them favors for their keeping of the law. Jesus was a servant, poor, came into the world with no wealth and died naked on a cross. Jesus preached love not religion and laws. He did all the signs and wonders prophesized but, he was a servant that talked with Samaritans and prost-itutes. His Kingdom was not of this world, not material wealth, not physical but, of the wind / spirit. This God they refused to see and that Kingdom they rejected.
Even the apostles lost faith and right up to Thomas doubted until he saw the resurrected Christ. Jesus said you see and believe, blessed are those have not seen and believe.
Long story short you are looking for evidence in what can be seen when we know that from the time of Abraham it was the blessed that believed what they could not see. That is why the evidence will never be in a “god particle” or the like. How are any of us different than those who were with Jesus 2,000 years ago? The religious leaders demanded Jesus do tricks and prove him Christ. Nicodemus in the cover of darkness went to see Jesus who explained it to him and Nicodemus said “that is hard to believe” “who can believe such a thing”. Jesus said you hear their testimonies and do not believe. Jesus said to other Jewish leaders you heard and read Scripture yet do not believe. If you cannot believe Moses and the prophets you will not hear from one that is raised from the dead.
Looks like all we will have to go on is Scripture and testimony.
@fred
An all good god would have everyone believe and be saved.
The bible says He does:
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. King James Version (KJV)
1 Timothy 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. King James Version (KJV)
A god who is all knowing, and all powerful, has only managed to convince about 33% of the world that He exists. A politician with an approval rating that low, would be considered a failure.
You said: "... because he is Omnibenevolent he calls all yet only a few are chosen. He knows his own children."
I Timothy 2:4 – "Who will have ALL men be saved...
Matthew 22:14 – Many are called, but few are chosen
If an all powerful, all knowing god wants something...
Your argument makes no sense. Or, is it that your bible is ambiguous? LOL
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I said: “If god is Omnipotent, then He would be ABLE to convince anybody and everybody that He exists.”
You said: "correct and the work was finished on the Cross."
How could you say the work was finished on the cross, when even today, ~ 67% of the world's population do not believe in the Christian god?
_____________________________________________
I said: “if the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?”
You said: "The Bible is written so that only those who truly seek will find salvation.
In each of the more than a thousand Christian faith groups, in North America, they are sincere, intelligent, devout, thoughtful and careful in their interpretation of the Bible. But, they come to mutually exclusive conclusions about what it teaches.
Because they don't come to your conclusions or even each others, does not mean they are not truly seeking. Does not mean that they are not worthy of the same Holy Spirit that makes you believe the way you do. In fact, People claiming knowledge thru mysticism or revelation often don’t even agree with each other.
There is only one conclusion. The bible is ambiguous. It is flawed. Understandable if written by men. But Christians claim it came from a perfect god.
___________________________________________
You said: "Scripture as referred to by Jesus is inerrant."
The gospel writers also had Jesus say, He would return in the first century, agree the world was flat, and die outside of Jerusalem, making him Not a prophet.
A made up Messiah is not a real good source of truth.
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I said: “another reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one.”
Early man invented the gods, because they were afraid of death and they didn't know very much about the world around them. God was used to explain this world. What makes the rain? God makes the rain. Why does the sun cross the sky? The god(s) drive the sun across the sky. Why does the mountain rumble? God(s) is angry.
Using god to fill in the gaps in man's knowledge, is called: "God of the Gaps". Catchy huh?
As man's knowledge increases, there are less and less gaps for God to hide in. There is less and less for Him to do. Good thing he has carpentry skills huh?
There is no reason to suppose that science will not, one day, be able to explain everything. In fact, a theory is being worked on by Stephen Hawking and other physicists designed to be a theory of everything. It is called M Theory.
As you can see from the examples of gaps that god once filled, god was not responsible for them. Hawking and others see no reason that a god is necessary for the creation of the universe.
"God did it", has never been true in the past. It will never be true in the future. LOL
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I said: “If the Christian god so loves the world, why does He allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc., ad nauseum. ?”
The point is, god doesn't cause or allow anything. All the disasters such as earthquakes and floods and lightning strikes, all have perfectly natural causes.
Hurricanes are not sent to punish or rerouted, to save. Those who die and those who live are not dependent on a non-existent god's whim.
Pathogens and creepy crawlers, are the product of evolution. Just as humans are.
If there were an all powerful, all knowing, all good god, He would be AWARE of all the suffering on earth. He would WANT to rid the world of suffering / evil. He would be ABLE to rid the world of suffering / evil.
Yet evil and suffering exist.
So, we can't blame what doesn't exist. *smile*
Because of evolution we now know:
No Adam and Eve –> No original sin –> No need for a redeemer –> No soul –> No afterlife
Or do you have proof that there is a soul or an afterlife?
The bible doesn't count since it is ambiguous and contains errors. It was written by ancient men.
__________________________________________
I said: “The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, or talking snakes, or Allah, or Zeus or Santa.”
You replied: "God is very different from the rest. A unicorn could well be a rhino of types based on translation. Snakes don’t talk but serpents can dependent your allegorical or literal interpretation. Allah is a remake of God in Mohammed’s image. Zeus was pagan man made god and Santa came to my house a few days ago."
The only reason you feel that your god is different, is because that is your belief. You have no proof.
I'm tired of you now. The only proof you use, is the bible.
You: God exists!
Me: How do you know?
You: Because the bible says so – See all these passages? !
Me: Why should I believe your bible?
You: Because the bible was written by God!
And I don't see it getting any better.
Cheers!
David Johnson
“A god who is all knowing, and all powerful, has only managed to convince about 33% of the world that He exists.”
=>Stop with the “He exists” already it discredits any other valid points you may have. Less than 7% of the world is not aware of who Jesus claimed to be. You can argue about his claims not existence. I have no idea the percentage of people in the world that follow Christ teaching as written in the Bible or how many God considered saved. All will and have been given a fair opportunity. The Bible itself points to only a remnant of all the people coming through into the Kingdom. This is not a negative reflection on omnipotence rather a fact related to human nature.
"Who will have ALL men be saved...”
=>Yes that is the heart of God yet not the heart of all men who were given the opportunity. Man and God are not the same so you cannot apply Gods attributes to all men without changing them.
“How could you say the work was finished on the cross, when even today, ~ 67% of the world's population do not believe in the Christian god? “
=>The bondage of sin was broken, the promise and curse from Genesis upon man and the serpent has come full circle. In short the penalty for sin was paid in full and all those with the heart of the one criminal that hung with Christ that day and said only “I deserved this you did not, remember me” are cleansed and will be with Christ. No one knows what that number will be and your numbers or percentages are of little meaning in such a reality.
David Johnson
“why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted?.......Because they don't come to your conclusions or even each others, does not mean they are not truly seeking. Does not mean that they are not worthy…….. The bible is ambiguous. It is flawed”
=>Actually, the Bible clearly reflects how man will continually go his own way regardless of what God does or provides for man. We are no different today, as it has been said and done a hundred times over hundreds of generations. Take careful note as to how patient God is with such an obstinate bunch. Remember it is the condition of your heart not the condition of your reading comprehension skills or place of birth.
“The gospel writers also had Jesus say, He would return in the first century”
=>We have been over this ground a few times and the verses you like to quote have been cleared up. There are even web sites devoted to exploiting these verses and clarifying them. You are not listening to the explanations intentionally.
“agree the world was flat” =>reflections of historic perspective reflecting a correct accounting.
“Using god to fill in the gaps in man's knowledge, is called: "God of the Gaps"
=>.True which is why they were man made gods to fill man’s gaps not Gods.
“ Hawking and others see no reason that a god is necessary”
=>we all justify our belief and making God dispensable is as good as any
David Johnson
“The only proof you use, is the bible.”
Given that you are speaking about God and the only thing we know about God is what he chose to reveal to us through the Bible of course we must refer to that source material.
Should we discuss Allah and leave the Quran off limits, leave Muslim testimony off limits and stay clear of Meca. That is how far out in left field you have left yourself.
Not a single tool of your scientific community has value in establishing the things of God. Should I toss all we know in the various fields just because they fail to prove God? Get a grip and get some balance.
You toss about this great conclusion of nothingness as if it has substance or proof and further as if it is some grand new idea of today’s great thinking men of science. Reality check you simply bought into some old antiquated Greek philosophy they borrowed from someone else. So rest your head quietly in the assurance of nothing and whatever you do don’t look under your bed at night.
fred, re: "Looks like all we will have to go on is Scripture and testimony." then you have nothing.
HotAirAce
What do you have for proof when it comes to the after life of an atheist?
I have personal assurance and simple faith that in the beginning God created.......and in the end if anyone knows it would be the Creator. The Bible has me covered. I guess I am in the same position I was in before I knew or cared about God. I did not know enough to realize there was something more. Today I cannot conceive of something more either.
If you are offering something more or perhaps better I just don't see it. I could not understand the things of God were very real I just did not see the spiritual side. Much the same way I really cannot see nothingness after death which is very different than not seeing anything after death.
Multiple prior posts by fred are instances of the circular reasoning fallacy.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
Unlike every religious leader, I am not a charlatan. I offer nothing other than a far more realistic belief that, given that there is not a shred of independent, objective, factual and verifiable evidence for any god, there most likely are no gods therefore your, and all other, tribal myths are crap. You may be deriving benefit from being a member of a christian cult, but you are delusional in any event.
Fallacy101
Given God is the source, the creator and the Divine inspriation behind the Bible should I expect anything different ? Since God always was and always will be is that a circle. If there is but one source and one truth does not every thing known to man based upon the the same?
HotAirAce
With the exception of modern atheist history since recorded time reflects man in a position of worship of something outside of self and greater than self. This is a consistent pattern from cave drawing on through today. Perhaps direction is significant since it is predominantly upward and outward.
fred it is enough to deal with the insane atheists of our own country let alone foreigners.
fred, just because something has been done or believed for a long time does not credibility to the behaviour or belief. Time for believers to move on – dare I say, to evolve.
HotAirAce
Only 8% of the world’s population describes themselves as non theistic. You suggest 92% are wrong yet you are right. I agree that simply because mankind since beginning of known history has worshiped a Deity does not necessarily prove they are correct. You would also argue 92% of todays’ world population is also wrong and you are right. There are 6,900 different languages spoken in the world today yet you argue there is no god since there are different gods and somehow this makes sense to you. You have no explanation yet that is better than any other explanations. Millions upon millions of testimonies every year from new conversions that have experienced God yet you dismiss each one of them on one basis or another and that seems logical to you. 24,000 manuscripts attesting to Jesus yet you maintain that is insufficient. The single most profound impact on the world in the past 3,400 years is the God of Abraham yet that is no matter. Science has no answer to origin or life after death yet you are sure that an answer will be found which has never happened in the entire history of mankind. It has been 2,000 years and the Jews, the Muslims, humanists, atheists and god hates have done everything in their power to topple Christ yet Jesus remains. Calling upon the name of God, the name above all names evokes response. The Bible says for I will hide my face from the wise and 3,000 years later the wise with the best tools cannot find God. Only those that seek as specified in the Bible find God with a humble heart.
I think one of us is in denial.
Prayer changes things
Prayer does not work. It should be resorted to in times of dire need, as a last ditch effort to control events.
Jesus speaking:
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." –Matthew 21:22 (NIV)
"I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." –Matthew 17:20 (NIV)
"Ask and it will be given to you.... For everyone who asks receives." –Luke 11:9-10 (NIV)
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven." –Matthew 18:19 (NIV)
James 5:15 – And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.
Let's be honest. Don't be afraid to use critical thinking. Jesus said the above, about prayer. Is it true? Can you post back to me and claim what Jesus said is true?
Why has there never been a doc_umented case of an amputated limb being restored? Do you think an amputee never prayed or had faith?
Double blind experiments, have all shown that prayer has no effect on illness.
Because people have believed the promises of the bible, they have withheld medical care for their children. They prayed instead. Evidently, god was not moved by their faith. Their children died. Modern medicine could have saved them. OOoopsie!
Why aren't Jesus' words true? Can you think of any possibilities? If Jesus' words aren't true about prayer, then how can we depend on anything else Jesus said? Maybe if we could "test" the afterlife claims, they would be no more real than the claims about prayer.
A fundie once told me, that god always answers prayers in one of three ways:
1) God says, "yes". You get what you asked for immediately.
2) God says, "to wait". You will get what you asked for at some future date.
3) God says, "no". You will not get what you asked for.
Hmmm.... But I can get the same success from the carton of milk I have sitting on the breakfast table.
1) If I pray to my magic carton, some things will come true immediately, just by chance and coincidence.
2) Some things will come true at some future date, for the same reasons.
3) If I don't get what I want, then my magic carton said, "no".
I think there is a problem, when there is no difference between praying to a god and praying to a milk carton.
Having a prayer answered, appears to require only 3 things:
1. Belief
2. Faith
3. And to be totally sure, you need others who agree with what you are asking for, to pray with you.
Hmm...
Remember the Gulf oil spill?
Remember how a ton of people prayed for god to stop the gushing?
I was spellbound! I watched the real time video of the oil spill. I expected to see it stop. It did not. Human technology eventually capped the well.
Remember when Rick issued a proclamation, that for 72 hours, the citizens of Texas would all pray for rain. I thought, surely god would hear their prayers and open the windows of Heaven!
The "days of prayer" ended Sunday, April 24, 2011.
As of Dec 7, 2011 ... Most of Central Texas and the Colorado River basin remain in the grips of an extreme drought.
Studies have shown prayer does not work. Any miracles or answered prayers are the result of random chance, coincidence, selective observation or fraud. Believers tend to remember the perceived positive outcome of prayers and forget the failed. Because believers rely on faith, they are easily deceived by unscrupulous people.
Christians MUST contest this. They must rent their clothes and Shout: "Do not put the lord your god to the test!" LOL!
God, either does not care or does not exist. Personally, I'm checking the second box. LOL.
Cheers!
Prayer changes things
Pray without ceasing in 2012
I prefer that all the useless religious people keep on perpetually praying for all of eternity and never going even outside. That will definitely be a world changer.
"God, either does not care or does not exist. Personally, I'm checking the second box. LOL."
Thank goodness we do not rely on you to make our choices.
If prayer worked so well, we wouldn't need doctors. What is prayer? An attempt to manipulate a god. If we know better than god and need to pray to change his/her mind, that would sound like an awfully weak minded god.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours, – Stephen Roberts
Expect a harvest, for only $58.00! Seed faith at its best! Idiot Evangelicals!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=I7e9vnwTjJA#t=94s
Cheers!
Here is some more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=07cmMhQxjfg
Oh yeah, there's a god! LOL
Yes, Dionysus, god of drunkenness and madness, amongst other things.
The Lord works in mysterious ways. Mysterious, spastic, embarrassing ways...
Please.
Before these idiots ancestors were kidnapped their faith was based on Allah, not Christ.
This type of idiotic behavior is because several generations of their kin were killed if they showed any intellectual development at all.
It seems if you kidnap, indoctrinate by force, and cull the resistant you can get humans to worship exactly who they are told to worship.
I'm United Pentecostal. I've seen many of these things and more. I didn't believe at first, but now my eyes see the Truth.
Is that a branch of the Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism? 🙂
It's a branch of the Judean People's Front. Not to be confused with the People's Front of Judea, whom they hate.
@a person of the Name
I once had a girl friend, when I was in 8th grade. She did a pretty good job of snake handling! I hated to dump her, but I found someone cuter. *sigh*
Cheers!
it was right after 8th grade that David Johnson found he liked handling snakes more than girls.
This is no different then going to a witch doctor. People in desperate sitautions will buy any excuse, any escape rather then intellectually facing their situation.
Are Charismatics' numbers larger than or growing faster than non-theists'?
Prime swampland buyers, folk who fall for this stuff. And was it not also the will of god that the apparently afflicted had to suffer in the first place...