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 The Bible presents us with an evolving story, writes John Shelby Spong.
December 29th, 2011
09:10 AM ET
My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions
By John Shelby Spong, Special to CNN The Bible is both a reservoir of spiritual insight and a cultural icon to which lip service is still paid in the Western world. Yet when the Bible is talked about in public by both believers and critics, it becomes clear that misconceptions abound. To me, three misconceptions stand out and serve to make the Bible hard to comprehend. First, people assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it. The facts are that Abraham, the biblically acknowledged founding father of the Jewish people, whose story forms the earliest content of the Bible, died about 900 years before the first story of Abraham was written in the Old Testament. Actually, that's not in the Bible Can a defining tribal narrative that is passed on orally for 45 generations ever be regarded as history, at least as history is understood today? Moses, the religious genius who put his stamp on the religion of the Old Testament more powerfully than any other figure, died about 300 years before the first story of Moses entered the written form we call Holy Scripture. This means that everything we know about Moses in the Bible had to have passed orally through about 15 generations before achieving written form. Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by? My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality? Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 A.D., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write. Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written - that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John - we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100. For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative. In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side. Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all. My Take: Yes, the Bible really condemns homosexuality Instead, it’s an interpretive account designed to conform the story of Jesus’ death to the messianic yearnings of the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. The Bible interprets life from its particular perspective; it does not record in a factual way the human journey through history. The second major misconception comes from the distorting claim that the Bible is in any literal sense “the word of God.” Only someone who has never read the Bible could make such a claim. The Bible portrays God as hating the Egyptians, stopping the sun in the sky to allow more daylight to enable Joshua to kill more Amorites and ordering King Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites. Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”? The book of Psalms promises happiness to the defeated and exiled Jews only when they can dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks! Is this “the word of God? What kind of God would that be? The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods, for those who commit adultery, for homosexual persons and for any man who has sex with his mother-in-law, just to name a few. The Bible exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters and wives to be obedient to their husbands. Over the centuries, texts like these, taken from the Bible and interpreted literally, have been used as powerful and evil weapons to support killing prejudices and to justify the cruelest kind of inhumanity. The third major misconception is that biblical truth is somehow static and thus unchanging. Instead, the Bible presents us with an evolutionary story, and in those evolving patterns, the permanent value of the Bible is ultimately revealed. It was a long road for human beings and human values to travel between the tribal deity found in the book of Exodus, who orders the death of the firstborn male in every Egyptian household on the night of the Passover, until we reach an understanding of God who commands us to love our enemies. The transition moments on this journey can be studied easily. It was the prophet named Hosea, writing in the eighth century B.C., who changed God’s name to love. It was the prophet named Amos who changed God’s name to justice. It was the prophet we call Jonah who taught us that the love of God is not bounded by the limits of our own ability to love. It was the prophet Micah who understood that beautiful religious rituals and even lavish sacrifices were not the things that worship requires, but rather “to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.” It was the prophet we call Malachi, writing in the fifth century B.C., who finally saw God as a universal experience, transcending all national and tribal boundaries. One has only to look at Christian history to see why these misconceptions are dangerous. They have fed religious persecution and religious wars. They have fueled racism, anti-female biases, anti-Semitism and homophobia.They have fought against science and the explosion of knowledge. The ultimate meaning of the Bible escapes human limits and calls us to a recognition that every life is holy, every life is loved, and every life is called to be all that that life is capable of being. The Bible is, thus, not about religion at all but about becoming deeply and fully human. It issues the invitation to live fully, to love wastefully and to have the courage to be our most complete selves. That is why I treasure this book and why I struggle to reclaim its essential message for our increasingly non-religious world. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong. soundoff (6,068 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 Next »
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Editor’s note: John Shelby Spong, a former Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, is author of "
Spong is the worst kind of hypocrite. He rejects every biblical doctrine and testimony under the sun and still claims to be a Christian. He totally drains Christianity of all meaning until it's a dirty grey sock that he slips over his cankerous foot like it's a pure white robe of righteousness, then asks people to smell and call it roses.
The bible has no meaning, but you're right, given that, why be religious?
unless.....it's YOU that's draining it of meaning by taking it in your 3rd grade level of understanding "myth".
Private prayer
Public prayer
Corporate prayer
Pray without ceasing in 2012
Praying – yes!
This is the best thing your kind can do for the coming future – doing nothing.
Pray without ceasing in 2012 til eternity.
–I corrected your post to really help out.
To be reconciled to God
Is to be blessed in communication with God
Prayer is communication with God
Today in 2012 and forever
Eternity
Pray without ceasing in 2012
Keep praying. Do nothing.
Dear Christians,
Please explain the following to me and MAYBE I'll consider your ridiculous dogma.
1. Dinosaurs – not mentioned in the book.
2. Tower of Babel to explain all of our different languages. Where are the ruins?
3. Noah's Ark
Also does your god have such low self esteem that your love and devotion is constantly being called into question?
1. Jonah surviving in the belly of a great fish
2. Satan asking permission from god to torture "god's favorite" bloke Job
3. Shadrach Meshach and Abednego "proving their love to god" in the fiery furnace
4. Daniel "proving his love to god" in the lion's den
5. Sarah giving birth at 90
6. Abraham "proving his love to god" by being asked to kill his son
7. Moses wandering around in the desert for 40 years and then being denied access to the "promised land"
I can't help but smile that this book has survived for so long.
1. Dinosaurs – not mentioned in the book. – Genesis 1:20-22 "And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." and Genesis 1:24 "And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
2. Tower of Babel to explain all of our different languages. Where are the ruins? – Dunno. Where is the body of Jimmy Hoffa? Simply because we haven't found traces of something doesn't mean it didn't exist.
3. Noah's Ark – There are people who believe they have found Noah's Ark, but they are yet unconfirmed. Stay tuned for details.
No DamianKnight..
Genesis 1:20-22 "And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." and Genesis 1:24 "And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
Bible quoting won't get you your answers. Your kind has always used the same quotes on various topics to justify the simplest thing of "I don't know".
It is for fact that the bible is useless – as soon as your kind puts the specifics of size, height, shape and other details in your references that come from science then you'll know the true worth of those quotes.
I don't see any mention of dinos Damian. Plus don't you think there would be a tale about man encountering them? At least the Greeks had big monsters.
Damian
What about god's self esteem? You conveniently skipped that.
DamianKnight,
So a 600-year-old man built a ship large enough to hold hundreds of thousands of animals and months of food? Then, after those months of torture, the animals were let out, only to kill some of them immediately for a sacrifice? The Noah's ark story defies all logic and the laws of science.
@Answer:
This is where context helps. Read his request: "Please explain the following to me and MAYBE I'll consider your ridiculous dogma.
1. Dinosaurs – not mentioned in the book.
2. Tower of Babel to explain all of our different languages. Where are the ruins?
3. Noah's Ark "
"The book" refers to the Bible. He was asking for a Biblical citation, so I gave him one. You're so hell-bent on screaming at everyone who even references the Bible, you're not READING the context in which it is said. I'm not up here preaching. I'm answering a question.
@SCAthiest – it doesn't say monkeys, giraffes, house cats, or chipmunks either. And it is my belief (please note the preface to the statement) I do not ascribe to the "young Earth" theory. I believe that the world is indeed millions and millions of years old, possibly billions. I don't know. I don't believe they were literal days in the Bible. I believe it was describing spans of time. So of course, dinosaurs were extinct far before mankind came around. Science shows us that much. 🙂
@Jade – Sorry, didn't find those important. But if you'd like me to address them, I'll respond.
Also does your god have such low self esteem that your love and devotion is constantly being called into question?
1. Jonah surviving in the belly of a great fish – Jonah was swallowed up for disobeying God. It was a punishment.
2. Satan asking permission from god to torture "god's favorite" bloke Job – God called Satan on his bet. Did Job get a rough turn of events because Satan decided to mess with him? Absolutely. But he came out better in the end for his faithfulness and was blessed by God.
3. Shadrach Meshach and Abednego "proving their love to god" in the fiery furnace – Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were not put in the furnace to prove their love of God. They were put there because they refused to bow down before an idol. And God protected them from the furnace.
4. Daniel "proving his love to god" in the lion's den – Once again, Daniel was placed in the lion's den for disobeying the king. God put the lions to sleep and protected Daniel. It had nothing to do with "proving his love to God."
5. Sarah giving birth at 90 – What does this have to do with anything? In May 1776, a woman gave birth to a child at 72. This is the incredulous thing? A woman giving birth when older? Plus, let's not forget, the Jewish calendar was different than our own, so who knows how old she actually was according to the Julian calendar. Hard to say.
6. Abraham "proving his love to god" by being asked to kill his son – God wanted to test Abraham. Abraham was stopped from killing his son. He wanted to see if Abraham was really as faithful as he claimed.
7. Moses wandering around in the desert for 40 years and then being denied access to the "promised land" – Yup. It was not God's plan for Moses to be the one to lead them to the promised land.
Why does god feel the need to "test" his already faithful? And why would god "call satan on his bet?" Why is god gambling with his followers faith? Whether they make out alright in the end is inconsequential. Tha's just cruel and narcissistic.
@Jade,
Fair enough questions. To be honest, I don't know why God does the things He does. God doesn't give me "whysdom." 🙂 As the creator of the universe and all things, He is not accountable to me. I am His servant, not the other way around. Usually though, it is because there is a bigger plan. It is a matter of faith that God has our best interests at heart.
At the end of the day, the question is, do you trust Him? If so, the "whys" are not important because the outcome is going to be fine...and sometimes better than fine. If not, then you go about doing things your own way. Free will is a blessing and we are allowed to use it in whatever way we want. We just have to know, we are going to be responsible for the consequences. For instance, I'm a believer. Jesus said that I would face scorn and mockery for my beliefs. And I do. Those are the consequences of my choice.
hahaha
Sadly, that's the exact same answer I get from all christians. "I don't know" and "you just have to have faith." Seems like kind of a weak answer when you have the "creator of the universe" behind you. Oh well......
@Jade,
Christians don't have all the answers, anymore so than someone of any other faith. We are human beings. Even if someone has a LOT of answers, they don't have them all. Ask a scientist if they have all of the answers. They certainly don't. Politicians? Nope. School Teachers? Nope. Clergy? Nope. Why? Because they are all humans. And if anyone says they have all of the answers, that's what you ought to look out for, especially when it comes to the motivations of God.
I can only give you the answers I have, nothing more.
I'm glad my "bible" only has eight words.
"Do ye no harm" "Do as ye will"
This article is just another attempt to erode what so many people hold dear as the meaning and purpose of their lives. Granted it is done in such way that most can nod and agree. After all, what is so unacceptable in saying the Bible is unreliable as historical book, it really isn't important whether Jesus death, resurrection and ascension are actual event just so long as we love people and strive to achieve a full human potential. Aside from the fact that he is so far off on his account of historical facts, this is an absolute effort to erode fundamental pillars of Judeo-Christian faith. I think it is a crying-shame that our society has become so diluted this kind of false-Christianity can be promoted via mass media....
As usual for xtians, facts don't matter.
You mean as opposed to the false-christianity (aka the bible) that has been propagated for centuries?
Your a moron.
How can you argue against the reality that if people did as Jesus said this world would be a better place?
How can you put forth an argument that is for a fairytale?
Well first you have to prove there actually was a Jesus, but even if there was, what does his existence have to do with the existence of God or the validity of all that is written in the bible?
Religion makes claims and that is all it is ever capable of.
From being the foundation of morality? Nope – it was stolen from people who freely knew that it was just good to be good. Passing on knowledge down long lines of learned behavior.
The bible a collection of factual evidence of creationism? Nope. Just tall tales of misunderstood concepts by primitives.
Science knows better.
Your kind is running a practice of falsehood. Any legal claims you have to anything related to the history of mankind has been refuted. All you are left with is the fear of trying to secure your place in heaven because you want others to help you to relieve your anxiety about dying. Good luck with that.
fred, if you mean the basic philosophy ("do unto others...") that jesus alledgedly promoted (assumming he existed, and I do not) then I can agree. It's when you add in all the mystical bullshit (virgin birth, son of god, resurrection, etc.) and imply that his philosophies were never uttered previously that we part company. And then throw all the misery caused by religions (not just christianity) and you really lose me!
fred,
The laws and commands in the Bible are NOT from Jesus, but from God, who apparently is far less "liberal".
Jesus is against religious tolerance. He sends people to hell for not believing in him. I challenge everyone to find a verse in the bible that promotes religious tolerance.
Observer
The Son and the Father are united "if you have seen me you have the Father". The complete justice of God is seen in the love and sacrafice of Jesus and complete justice for those who reject God based on what they deserve.
God don't like animals either. Kind of strange how it gets off on sacrifices and beating talking donkeys.
Prayer changes things a lot
As studies have shown – prayer does nothing.
I urge every religious person to stay indoors and do nothing but pray for the next half century. Be kind and pray and do nothing but stay indoors. This is the best thing your kind can do for the coming future.
Prayer changes a lot of things
Actually, and I can still admit this, studies have shown the exact opposite. People who have a sincere belief in prayer, that pray, do experience biological effects, not limited to improved healing and stress reduction. Some also experience this effect when told others are praying for them or believe they are. There may be alternative explanations, but it doesn't mean that prayer has no effect at all.
God lets bad people kill at will.
The devoted they say it’s because of “free will”.
Then why do they pray, and pray, and pray?
For god to help them, day after day?
They want their god to rectify their fate.
Their own “free will” they ask god to negate.
“Free will” for us all…, from the god of peace!
Who sends us to hell for a “wrong” belief.
Actually prayer DOES do a lot. Praying, singing, running/jogging, chanting, reading, meditating, humming, reading poetry, repeating familiar phrases, all release beta endorphins. Why else would anyone continue to do it ? 😈
Prayer changes things
When we pray according to the will of God
We agree with God
So, not healthy,
When did you start talking to yourself? Have you been doing that a long time? Do you get answers? Do you hear voices?
What do they tell you?
Maybe you should seek help.
Hey man! I was supposed to get a real virgin! This bitch is looser than a bath-robe sleeve! What kinda shit is this?!? Where's the payroll office?
Is it possible the size discrepancy is on your side?
"Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”?
Well, yes they can. Sounds like you are judging God by your own standards. In which case you have created your own God! As a "man of God" how can you question His "morality". Either He is omniscient and the source of all morality or he isn't? It's ironic that you rightly acknowledge that the bible is a story of the evolution of man- albeit not an accurate historic account – but then you fail to recognize that evolution by definition means change and adaptation. A little "sin" that might pass as a minor peccadillo of little consequence at this stage of human evolution may have led to a socially disasterous outcome in a more primative subsistance society. Sometimes what might seem like God's wrath and vengeance is also a token of his mercy. And yes, God can be angry and punish man for his misdeeds. Or do you forbid him to do so? If you do. Then the God you are talking about is a figment of your own imagination. A being which you feel you have a higher authority over. To finish. everything that is good is from God. Everything that is evil is from man. God only wants good for his creaturs. And as we don't know what lies beyond this life, what we may consider harsh or unfair in this short fleeting life may actually prove to be benefitial to our eternal soul. Unless you know better.
Can we at least get a god that doesn't contradict herself over and over?
Que in the next theist who says that there are no contradictions in the next post...
A few creative spellings aside, that's a pretty creative, albeit rather wriggly commentary, Russel...
Could have seen THAT one coming a mile away. "God works in mysterious ways".
Prayer changes things
God does not contradict Himself
The confusion is with man kind
Burdened with a sin we are trying to hide
Repent accept your sins for what they are – evil
A confusing mess that separates us from God
Pray in all earnestness
The sinners prayer
Accept your inability to be at peace with God
Turn from your wicked ways
And instead accept as God accepted
The innocent Jesus
Who bore the penalty for all sin
For all of us
On the cross
That we might be at peace with God
And so understand as God gives understanding
@ Dang,
Where r u getting ur bible quotes from. i have my bible right in front of me and nothing ur saying is what it reads. to start numbers 30 doesnt even go to 25. lol. and numbers 31 says 32000 virigins, but never mentions the VIRGINs being given to moses. it just says 16000 persons
Sorry, I reply to you earlier but but I made another quote taken directly from the Bible but probably got censored because I did not see it posted. Anyway, I made a typo error. It should be Numbers 31:2-35, not 25. Better yet, just read the whole Num 31. Please also check the following link: http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm.
I was thinking about commenting on Bishop Spong's insightful commentary, but given the tenor of the comments I've read so far attempts at thoughtful conversation seem wasted on this crowd. Athiests on a religious chat remind me of the local preacher that sued a radio station for playing an offensive song during a gay themed show. That is to say, if you are not interested in the content, what are you doing here?
To bash it.
The truth is that both theist and atheist zealots enjoy the same activity, mindlessly and passionately spewing their hate-filled thoughts in hopes of converting people to join their miserable causes.
@Too Bad
You forgot the fun factor.
Perhaps atheists are offended and pushing back against people who believe they deserve to burn in hell and worship a god they believe sends them there for not believing what they believe.
While theists are offfended and pushing back against people who think the world would be better off if anyone who believes in God at all should be killed, sterilized and/or separated from society at large. I get where you're coming from, but both zealots are as insufferable and mean-spirited as each other from what I've seen.
@too bad, there is a difference. One group has been kicking the other group around for 2000 years.
Oh please, the animosity and reciprocity has always been there. They're both the same kind of person. Sorry if you zealots don't like being mirror images of one another.
I'm not sure how the author can claim that the world is increasingly non-religious when it's quite obvious that the polarization that religion provides will ultimately end in war. I'd say that makes the world increasingly religious.
Thank you, you've made the case that the Bible is really just a book of fables. Now if the religious zealots would just get over themselves, the rest of us can live our lives without their sanctimonious nonsense.
Amen!
@ George: from an expert on myths & fables – why the Bible cannot be regarded as one...
CS Lewis' essay, "Fern Seed & Elephants" delivered among fellow academicians, some of whom were making such a claim. Here, in CS Lewis' own words [except for my square bracket clarifications] – selected highlights...
1) he distrusts them as critics – b/c they miss the obvious
[if they’re claiming these are legends, they haven’t read many like he has – there's no myths with superfluous detail like this]
2) all liberal theology seems to thrive on the idea that Xnty was quickly corrupted & only modernity has begun to exhume it as it really was originally [self-projection w/o awareness]
3) they all begin by as.suming the miraculous isn’t possible – but the text doesn’t teach that. They come with that disposition
4) if contemporary critics of my own works almost always (if not always) get it wrong [when they try to reconstruct his motives/audience/meaning/etc.], & they actually *share* his culture, how much more impossible is it for biblical scholars dealing w/ more barriers
http://orthodox-web.tripod.com/papers/fern_seed.html
lol this dude pwnt fools lol
Another misconception is that you can wipe with the bible. You can't, unless they print it on really soft paper. That's the best use I've found for it.
By the way, the Bible even specifies that 16,000 virgins was given to Moses' priests and another 16,000 virgins to his troups. Please check Numbers 30:2-25 for yourself.
We don't want no freaking virgins! Send us experienced women, the ones who know what they are doing! Virgins have lots of issues and no clue what they are doing! Let the Muslims have the virgins when they die – they deserve them.
There is really only one biblical misconception: that it is true.
This is one of several thousands instances in the Bible proving why it is the most misunderstood book in humankind:
Numbers 31:2: God asked Moses to avenge the children of Israel .
Numbers 31:32-35: Moses' troups invaded Midian, ordered the killing of all its men, women, pregnant women, babies, children EXCEPT virgin girls/women that were later shared as booty between his soldiers and his priests. Yes, the Moses who received the 10 Commandments directly from God and gave it to us. To the faithful contributors, please read the Bible first before arguing. It is not as nice and moral as your priests and preachers have been telling you.
After reading all the partisan and sometimes intolerant comments above I am sooooo glad to be Buddhist!
It is a great philosophy. Good for you.
Peace. I hope that we all reincarnate as better beings in the next life.
Answer
So what you have moved from atheist to agnostic now multi theist? At least it is progress towards truth
@fred
What I am is always what I am.
An atheist. I know the philosophy. It is knowledge that you are not privileged enough to explore.
Answer
It is more than a philosophy it may well be the largest single factor in the deaths of 285 million some people at the hands of China and Russia as they moved to persecute religious groups in their bid to achieve an atheist society. Tell me about the philosophy that promotes death to all that fail to follow in lockstep.
So that's your type of reply right fred?
To go attacking the buddhists? Make them the enemy of your righteous religion – that we must accept your garbage? Your bible plug [is here].
That is your sole purpose in this life fred. Rather pathetic every time you come on to have a chat with me.
"Tell me about the philosophy that promotes death to all that fail to follow in lockstep."
Do tell me also fred.. does your religion -along with the rest of the abrahamic trite not want to do the "lockstep" – that you so casually overlook? Do they not have the same death tolls? You jest – you wish – you want yours to be so righteous but can never even hope to see how absolutely blind you are to your own religion.
Answer
Not at all. Just want to you see that it is not atheism or religion rather man that has always done evil. When you promote brainwashing children so they never have a chance to know God it is no different than when prayer was part of our school system. You wish a society without God yet you have no idea what such a society would look like.
@fred
You can go for an eternity on your garbage rant about your religion. You are absolutely pathetic to ignore the facts against your arguments.
Atheists failed and Christians failed. The sad part for me is the failure of Christians to follow the simple things Jesus said. Had we done that over the last 2,000 years this would be a different world. The Christian failure is worse because it gives cause to doubt the power of a living God. Atheist failure on the other hand is just men doing what man has always done.
fred, just when I think you are starting to understand atheism and are ready to shed your childish myths, you disapoint me by continuing to confuse communism with atheism. The communists wanted to eliminate religion because they wanted to elimate the (controlling) power of the clergy. People died because they opposed communism not because they refused to accept atheism.
Babble on fred .. babble on.
Answer
How can you argue against the reality that if people did as Jesus said this world would be a better place?
@HotAirAce,
Seems there's only two ways to obtain and maintain power:
Become the religious head and therefore everything you say are the "words of God" and therefore unquestionable.
Remove all religion so that there is no one questioning your authority and you can do as you please.
Doesn't seem like either one has worked in the long term.
@DamianKnight, good observations!
Actually, Fred is almost right when he says "You wish a society without God yet you have no idea what such a society would look like." (One could say the same thing about a society with Freds; but I digress.) A society without facile religious excuses for conflict, however, would have to be an improvement...
@HotAirAce,
What I find amusing is, they are pretty much exact opposites and neither one works long term.
Neither abolishing religion nor absolutely embracing it works.
And apparently just telling people, "Hey, believe what you want!" doesn't work very well either (i.e. the United States constant controversies over religion)
We can't win for losing!
HotAirAce
Vladimir Lenin wrote "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist. Karl Marx "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."
However, as I stated it is a problem with men not religion (atheist or other)
fred,
"How can you argue against the reality that if people did as Jesus said this world would be a better place?"
It's easy. Jesus said "what God has joined, let not man separate". No divorce.
Observer
I guess you will go with the stale argument that an abused spouse must stick with his or her abuser? You know that to be false so why don't you let go? God is much bigger than mans foolish gottcha garbage. If there is a God the abuser will be well taken care of as will the abused. Now, keep in mind I am speaking of the abused assuming they are in Christ (ie gave their life to Jesus). If God took good care of Lazarus even though allowing him to suffer outside the gates so too will God care for an abused spouse.
fred, "God is much bigger than mans foolish gottcha garbage.", yeah and apparently your sky fairy demands and does a lot more killing too. What was today's animal that you cruelly sacrificed and burned, to please your god's scent glands? And what is the latest race that your god is out to slaughter for some supposed crime by one member?
No thanks, you can keep your sicko Christian supersti-tions to yourself. Quietly, please.
Christians + historical fact simply do not mix. Historical fact flies directly in the face of their (hijacked) mythology. If you want to believe the moral tales held within – good for you, but that's all it is, a book of (mostly outdated) moral tales, not the least bit based upon true facts. Sure, they sprinkle in some factual tidbits to make it believable, but by and large, with the exception of characters like Herod the great, and Pontius Pilate, there are very few actual historically traceable characters.
Considering most of the tales can be traced back to earlier mythos of earlier civilizations, it never ceases to amaze me at how many people take this stuff literally. But then again, people love to watch the Kardashians, so there's no accounting for intelligence.
Wow Marco..you must have sooo much evidence to support your thinking. Plz do tell us all.
The truth is that you have no facts that support the notion that the "tales" can be traced back to earlier myths of other civilizations. Just because something seems smililar does not mean they are related you know. Take it from biology with the Auks and Penguins. Very very similar but not related in any way.
Also..most ppl are not literalists. It is an error to think that. It's probably due to the limited knowledge that the non-religious has on Christianity. A knowledge that probably does not go beyond what little they know about Protestants and what the media says about Catholics.
As for the history...just because something hasn't been proven yet does not mean it does not exist. The city of Troy was long thought it was a myth till archaeologists found it.