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 The Bible presents us with an evolving story, writes John Shelby Spong.
December 29th, 2011
09:10 AM ET
My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions
By John Shelby Spong, Special to CNN The Bible is both a reservoir of spiritual insight and a cultural icon to which lip service is still paid in the Western world. Yet when the Bible is talked about in public by both believers and critics, it becomes clear that misconceptions abound. To me, three misconceptions stand out and serve to make the Bible hard to comprehend. First, people assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it. The facts are that Abraham, the biblically acknowledged founding father of the Jewish people, whose story forms the earliest content of the Bible, died about 900 years before the first story of Abraham was written in the Old Testament. Actually, that's not in the Bible Can a defining tribal narrative that is passed on orally for 45 generations ever be regarded as history, at least as history is understood today? Moses, the religious genius who put his stamp on the religion of the Old Testament more powerfully than any other figure, died about 300 years before the first story of Moses entered the written form we call Holy Scripture. This means that everything we know about Moses in the Bible had to have passed orally through about 15 generations before achieving written form. Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by? My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality? Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 A.D., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write. Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written - that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John - we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100. For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative. In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side. Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all. My Take: Yes, the Bible really condemns homosexuality Instead, it’s an interpretive account designed to conform the story of Jesus’ death to the messianic yearnings of the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. The Bible interprets life from its particular perspective; it does not record in a factual way the human journey through history. The second major misconception comes from the distorting claim that the Bible is in any literal sense “the word of God.” Only someone who has never read the Bible could make such a claim. The Bible portrays God as hating the Egyptians, stopping the sun in the sky to allow more daylight to enable Joshua to kill more Amorites and ordering King Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites. Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”? The book of Psalms promises happiness to the defeated and exiled Jews only when they can dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks! Is this “the word of God? What kind of God would that be? The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods, for those who commit adultery, for homosexual persons and for any man who has sex with his mother-in-law, just to name a few. The Bible exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters and wives to be obedient to their husbands. Over the centuries, texts like these, taken from the Bible and interpreted literally, have been used as powerful and evil weapons to support killing prejudices and to justify the cruelest kind of inhumanity. The third major misconception is that biblical truth is somehow static and thus unchanging. Instead, the Bible presents us with an evolutionary story, and in those evolving patterns, the permanent value of the Bible is ultimately revealed. It was a long road for human beings and human values to travel between the tribal deity found in the book of Exodus, who orders the death of the firstborn male in every Egyptian household on the night of the Passover, until we reach an understanding of God who commands us to love our enemies. The transition moments on this journey can be studied easily. It was the prophet named Hosea, writing in the eighth century B.C., who changed God’s name to love. It was the prophet named Amos who changed God’s name to justice. It was the prophet we call Jonah who taught us that the love of God is not bounded by the limits of our own ability to love. It was the prophet Micah who understood that beautiful religious rituals and even lavish sacrifices were not the things that worship requires, but rather “to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.” It was the prophet we call Malachi, writing in the fifth century B.C., who finally saw God as a universal experience, transcending all national and tribal boundaries. One has only to look at Christian history to see why these misconceptions are dangerous. They have fed religious persecution and religious wars. They have fueled racism, anti-female biases, anti-Semitism and homophobia.They have fought against science and the explosion of knowledge. The ultimate meaning of the Bible escapes human limits and calls us to a recognition that every life is holy, every life is loved, and every life is called to be all that that life is capable of being. The Bible is, thus, not about religion at all but about becoming deeply and fully human. It issues the invitation to live fully, to love wastefully and to have the courage to be our most complete selves. That is why I treasure this book and why I struggle to reclaim its essential message for our increasingly non-religious world. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong. soundoff (6,068 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor’s note: John Shelby Spong, a former Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, is author of "
I am always amused at how bent out of shape people get when discussing a faith that is based on a book that is supposedly nothing but a collection of myths and legends. If you don't believe in it, than why do you get upset when some christian "know-nothing" says that your unbelief will lead to to "Hell". If you don't believe, then there is no Hell. If you don't believe you have nothing to fear. If you don't believe....why so upset? Unless maybe somewhere deep down inside......you do.
If you think hell is the issue with religions then you have a problem with your own death. Don't associate your own fear and attribute them to others.
The main issues with religion – intolerance. For repressing women, mistreating different races, s-e-x-u-a-l-i-t-y, creed (background).. and on and on. For spreading fear. To promoting war. To promoting most of all – hate.
Post by TWA1959 is a thinly veiled reference to the flawed argument known as Pascal's Wager.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
Not really Fallacy Spotting.
That is simply the DUMBEST thing ever to be spoken by a human being. My IQ just dropped 50 pts after having read it. Now I am barely smarter than you.
Keith is a liar. Liar liar pants on fire.
The above article by John Shelby Spong is after the wisdom of men but not after the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:4,5).
He writes about misconceptions and interpretations of the Bible, while there are no misconceptions and the Word of God is not to be interpreted (2 Peter 1:20).
The problem is that in his natural state he is not able to understand the Bible as it is spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). He is not a follower of Christ but has transformed himself into an apostle of Christ (2 Cor. 11:13-15) and follows after an image of a false god and a false Christ (Matthew 24:24).
He represents the Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots as spoken of in Revelation 17:5 and in truth is the servant of sin (John 8:34).
For a better understanding of the history of the Catholic Church, we invite you to read the articles ‘The Mystery Babylon’ and ‘Popes and the Princes of This World’ listed on our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca
Unless he repents and turns from darkness to light and from the power of Satan (whose spirit he is of) unto God (Acts 26:18) he will remain spiritually blind and separated from the true and living God.
Many still believe that sin is some kind of act but in truth it means a lot more than what people by nature have been made to believe. The same goes for the word repent. For a better understanding what it means to repent and what it means to be a sinner and a Christian we invite you to read the articles ‘Repent’, ‘What is Sin?’ and ‘Can Christianity or Any Other Religion Save You?’ listed on our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca
All of the other pages and articles will explain how and by whom this world has been deceived as confirmed by the Word of God in Revelation 12:9; Matthew 24:24 and 2 Cor. 11:13-15.
Seek, and ye will find (Matthew 7:7).
Still committing abominations while hypocritically trashing others for abominations?
AvdBerg is spamming again. Hit Report abuse everyone.
Observer
Matthew 9:12. They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are si-k (sinners).
I often wonder why people join the clergy who don't believe in the book that supposedly supports their religion? I mean, why bother?
I don't know the guy, but am pretty sure he believed it whole heartedly when he first set out on that path. But once you begin studying the bible for what it really is, it is harder and harder to believe in.
I am surmising all these comments are really mostly about the question of what is really True? To that end, for those want to consider something beyond their own opinion, here's Os Guenness (yes, a grandson of Irish beer maker) presentation of why truth matter. http://www.rzim.org/justthinkingfv/tabid/602/articleid/11044/cbmoduleid/881/default.aspx
The bible is just a big book of plagiarized myths and nothing more. Christards are too screwed up in the head to realize it though.
The biggest misconception about the christian bible is that this Jesus fellow was the son of a god
No, the biggest misconception is that it is true.
Sure. after all, Jesus was really just a modestly successful black sharecropper in southern Georgia who liked to wear women's clothes while he did the weekend crossword.
Unbelievers in Jesus go to hell; believers go to heaven! Simple: JOHN 3:16-18 and the rest of Scriptures. As far as this ignorant man in this CNN article, the same fate as an unbeliever. If the Bible is myth, why bother! Why would Jesus die then? Only death will confirm the truth, but until then, too late for unbelievers! God does not have to prove anything! He is just showing mercy before hell happens to the majority of people! Have a good night everybody!
Jesus is a Nancy boy...Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
The Norse gods are way better than the crock of abrahamic bunk.
cocoloco,
"God does not have to prove anything!".
Yep, according to the Bible, God totally ignors how good a person is and ONLY cares about whether they believe in something that can't be proved.
Don't you just love it that Christians like cocoloco get all hot and horny at the idea of eternal torture for those who don't agree with them? It just makes them throb with self-righteous glee and anticip . . . . . . . . . . pation. One might think Jesus would find such delicious spite unworthy of heaven.
Jesus was a liar, a che.at, a swindler, and a fraud.
He was also gay and kept running away from the cops.
He did not come back to life.
He was not the son of a "god".
He was one of hundreds of religious crazies in those days.
You can thank Paul for having s.e.x with Constantine for the success of Christianity forced upon the Roman Empire at the point of a sword.
Money, power, and s.e.x – just what every Christian wants, is the whole reason a tiny cult became a big one in the first place.
He taught socia.lism and hated scribes
He was part of the "Occupy the Temple" movement.
Why are atheists so hostile toward Christians ??? Why does what we believe offend you so much?
uhhhh....because it's offensive?
From what I have gathered, they are tired of having the Christian agenda forced upon them. And, I can understand that. I'd hate to have a faith forced upon me. That's why I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone. I simply answer questions to the best of my ability.
Yes it is the contents of what you believe.
Why do you try to convert people to your faith?
I Believe,
Everyone should be free to choose and practice their religion in their homes and places of worship as long as they respect the rights of others. For Christians, it's too often that they don't respect others rights and try to force their religion on others and deny EQUAL RIGHTS to others.
It's not so much WHAT you believe, but rather WHAT you try to force on others.
Not so much what you believe. At least for me it is the thought of attempting to convert others (sometimes forcefully), and the attempt to legislate by extrapolation of the bible. This is of course true of only a small part of the Christian following. Hope that makes it more clear at least from my perspective.
Christians don't seem to understand why non-believers are offended and fed up with people who act holy, pious, and like they are god’s favorite people.
With people who judge and condemn us.
With people who continuously try to impress upon our children that a bogus myth is true AND if they refuse to believe it's true, they will be tortured in hell forever.
With people who believe the god THEY WORSHIP sends us to hell for not believing while THEY FULLY APPROVE and think we deserve it as long as we refuse to believe what they believe.
It does not offend me. What I do find offensive is when a believer claims to have knowledge that I do not but cannot produce any supporting evidence. I do find it offensive believers resort to threats of hell when they have lost a debate. I do find it offensive when a believer does not think they need to justify their actions or words because it is in their scriptures.
Because Cthulhu is the only one, true, Lord...BOW TO HIM!!!!!!
( o Y o )
Here's why: Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
It's not what you believe that offends me. What offends me is that you presume it your responsibility to shove your beliefs down others throats.
?????????????????????
are you serious?
Keith,
Why quote the Bible now? You said if the Bible was wrong about anything, it all was wrong.
– II Chronicles 22:2 “Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in
Jerusalem.” [KJV]
– II Kings 8:26 “Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.”
[KJV]
Good. Now we are all in agreement. So next time you might want to do some actual thinking before calling someone a "liar".
I have more respect for someone who "does not believe" and chooses to follow their own path as opposed to someone who says "they believe" but refuses to follow the tenants set forth within their belief (ie: The Bible).
That is the inherent failing of religion and Christianity today, not that all men and women are sinners and as such need to be saved BUT that many "believers" use the Bible and religion as a menu of choices / options and they will only choose to follow that which suits them at any given time. You either accept it and try repeat try to follow it as a whole or accept none of it. Sitting on the fence is wholly and utterly unacceptable and warrants disrespect.
Very succinct. I can understand what you are saying.
The problem is, Christians have a very hard, nearly impossible standard to live up to. So we fail. We're human, just like anyone else. But it is not following the tenants when someone deliberately ignores the teachings. So there, I will agree with you.
Damian, "Christians have a very hard, nearly impossible standard to live up to." – you got that right, I mean, how do you even keep up with all that frequent goat sacrificing that your bible demands of you, keep your stone collection stocked up for the next stoning, and still have some time for a life?
Following the old testament to the tee can make you a murderer, while following the new testament to the tee can make you a sociopath.
For those, who are truly seeking I recommend "Buried Secret of the Bible" by Nova....
Here here. A very good series. (http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565/), as is all the rest PBS Nova series about the Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Cultural development.
Dear Maurey Povich Bible Show,
Thank you for posting web address. Why didn't I think of that. :0)
I have a great idea. All you athiests want to "see proof" of God? Kill yourselves en masse, and see what happens!
How "Christian" of you. Just what Jesus would say, right?
It's your god why do would we follow your stupid idea?
You are assuming that Kefka is a Christian...that's not very wise. That idiotic comment could have been made by a non-religious person just the same.
@Uncouth Swain Are you saying that he might be an atheist posing as a christian? Somehow that doesn't seem to be very likely.
I didn't say he was atheist but that the poster could just as likely be non-religious as anything else. It's folly to just assume they are Christian without anything to make that guess by.
That would be like someone being a jerk to the Republicans over on the political blogs. One might assume they are a Democrat when they could just as well be a Libertarian.
Here's hoping that someone takes pity on you for you to receive help for your severe mental illness. Seriously.
Christians like to eat their own poo.
If all the atheists in the world died off tomorrow it would increase the worlds obit columns by way less than 1%.
herbie shut up.
If all the religious fools die tomorrow of suicide they'd all be just dead and forgotten the next day.
No one should want anyone to die or even imply it as something funny. Atheists are welcome to their opinion as anyone else..just as Christians, Jews, Hindu...etc are.
But if I die I'm going to see the Lord Flying Spaghetti Monster...you know, the one that has as much proof of existing as this "God"...Or Vishnu, Horus, Ra, Thor, Cthulhu, Allah, Zeus, etc.
Hey, you're the athiests demanding proof. Seeing God judge your lives would be proof, right?
Emperor Kefka,
NOT seeing God judge your lives would be proof, right?
Demanding proof of a god whilst being alive does not equate to wanting to die. Only the stupid religious fools equate that notion as a path worth following.
Why does a god who gives you life demand you die just to let you know HE exists? So laughable.
@....- "But if I die I'm going to see the Lord Flying Spaghetti Monster...you know, the one that has as much proof of existing as this "God"...Or Vishnu, Horus, Ra, Thor, Cthulhu, Allah, Zeus, etc."
If that's what you believe...knock yourself out.
It is 7 PM here in Rochester New York.
Its 18 degrees and dark and cold.
I have to take the trash out.
I just asked god to make it warm and light.
I am going to put on my warm clothing and bring a flash light.
Better to be shure than sorry.
Please dont give me this crap, that if i believe it would happen,
Sorry azz crispians.
Question ?
Jesus was a jew, right ?
So you are worshipping him for what ?
That cross thing ?
Political prisoners sentenced to death.
Oh....i get it.... it was that ressurection thing.
Walk on water
turn water into wine
raise the dead
heal the sick
feed the poor
Witchcraft is condemned by the Catholic church.
So what Jesus did was heresy.
anyway you look at it
its a fraud.
We are all subject to the weather. It rains on the just and the unjust, which side are you on?
False dic-k-otomy.
It was Thursday December 29.
It was cold In Rochester.
I was working the night watch out of Bunko.
A call came in
it was 6:54 pm.
The call was from Grace Of The Witch .
It was pure bunk.
It was Thursday December 29.
I was on assignment
It was cold In Rochester.
I was working the night watch out of Bunko.
A call came in
it was 6:54 pm.
The call was from Grace Of The Witch .
It was pure bunk.
You're fired, Joe, for being stupid while on duty.
apparently the author doesn't believe in a God inspired scripture .... only thinks that man wrote down what man wanted to write. He is in error. Moses wrote the first five books ... with the Holy Spirit ensuring that the original was without any inaccuracy nor error. The rest of the scriptures were written by other men ... with the Holy Spirit ensuring accuracy and no error.
Moses wrote about his own death and burial ? Hahahahaha.
LOL! You are too funny.
Really? I can as-sume from your post that you have never read the Bible. It is full of errors. Very bad editing.
Tell us about Moses writing about his death after the fact.
My friend Pappa Smurf wrote a book, and it even has pictures in it.
If you like i will send you a copy, i will get pappa smurf,
and maybe grouchy, and some others to autograph it,
just to make it real.
Love,
Piggy.
Moses wrote the first five books? Who in hell told you that?
If you had eyes to see and ears to hear you would both see and hear. As it is your eyes and ears condemn you.
If you had a telescope you'd be able to see farther into the galaxy. If you had a parabolic microphone you could really hear better! Science doesn't condemn you.
No need I am already free of condemnation.
No, you're wrong about that. I condemn you. You will burn forever in Hell. There is no going back. You are condemned.
Sure Felix ..
Go on with the delusions that a heaven awaits you. Feel that pull of insecurity about death and cling to that fear.
John Spong is uncomfortable with the central tenets of Christianity, the atoning sacrifice of Christ and his resurrection, and dismisses them:
"The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history."
John Spong is, for this reason, something other than Christian. He may not know this. On his website he is quoted "I am a believer who knows and loves the Bible deeply." A believer in what? "Something", apparently:
"Something happened after the crucifixion of Jesus that convinced the disciples that Jesus shared in the eternal life of God and was thus available to them as a living presence. This experience was so profound that the disciples, who at his arrest had fled in fear, were now reconsti.tuted and empowered even to die for the truth of their vision. This experience had the power to force the Jewish disciples to redefine the God of the Jews so that Jesus could be seen as part of who God is. Finally this experience was so profound that it ultimately created, on the first day of the week, a new holy day that was quite different from the Sabbath, to enable Christians to mark this transforming moment with a liturgical act called 'the breaking of bread.' "
John Spong may be in a state that is familiar to many Christians who have come to faith later in life. One of knowing that there is Truth, but not not yet knowing that it is Christ. Not a quasi-historical rabbi called Jesus that biblical scholars mumble about, but the risen Christ.
What "Truth" are you referencing and what verifiable evidence can you present to support your claim?
The "Pay-back" scheme/paradigm, ("salvation") was not the central tenet of Christianity, until much later than Jesus, since he never said anything about himself being the "sacrifice". That Pauline "slap-on" was a later development, which clearly was at odds with Jesus' brother James, and the other good Jews, in the Jerusalem community. Just because Spong does not believe in your version of truth he is not a "true" believer ? Well, since there are thousands of sects of you cult, I guess almost no one would be "true" in your world. If Spong says he finds the myths "authentic", then he IS a Christian.
*** John Spong is uncomfortable with the central tenets of Christianity....
No, i think you are the one who is.
Understanding means opening your mind,
not closing it.
Mom always said that if somebody has another point of view,
look at it very closely, evaluate it, understand it,
you may reject it, but understand why.
Moms are good for that.
Thanks for the post Brad! Finally something that was worth reading!
You should totally find a way to contact him and make sure to tell him what he believes, since you know that better than he does.
I see Brad is doing the "no true scotsman" argument.
Thanks, Brad, for being just another stupid idiot. It makes me feel pretty smart to see so many others being stupid.
Post by Brad is an instance of the No True Scotsmen fallacy.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
To have eyes that do not see or ears that do not hear follow the pattern of gupsphoo. It is far better to be blind or deaf and believe and so enter the Kingdom of God, than to be as gupsphoo and be totally lost.
How does one figure out who is lost? Oh yes – preach that others are lost, to convince yourself, you are NOT the one that is lost.
We don't figure the lost, God does. We try to reduce the number of the lost by testifying to the Truth. If one says I am an atheist, it is a clue to the probability that that person is lost.
Do tell the "truth".
Write it all down and let others know it. Your kind has been plugging it for eons and still haven't gotten a handle on it. I'll give you all the time you need.
God is Truth
@Felix
I thought that putting on your left shoe first and then your right shoe was the "truth".
That statement is from your stupid book I see. That is just crap.
You asked, you were told, the rest is up to you. Putting on your shoes will end, there is no truth there.
You told but lied.
Prove the lie or face your fate. I would rather you find God but I can only show the way to Truth. You have to accept it for yourself.
There is no god, thus you lie. Next idiot please!
Let's see the god – which one? Thor? Hermes? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Zeus? Horus? Odin? Mythra?
Which one were you saying is your god? Your lying god – your lying filth..
Atheism is not healthy,
Are you really so much of a troll that all you can do is repost the same crap for days on end? Not only a troll but a lazy one as well.
That poor fool is not right in the head.
You can tell how seriously unstable that type of person is -to put that much hate to demonizing atheism- of all things.
Atheism is the promotion of healthy skepticism.
We are in agreement HawaiiGuest, atheism is not healthy. A lot of wisdom in your statement.
@just sayin,
I suppose that I will assume you are trying to twist the words of my post. Such an inventive and original way to do it to.
Why is atheism not healthy?
because HawaiiGuest says atheism is unhealthy
"atheism is not healthy"
lol. Atheists don't have to be constantly concerned about doing something that will get God angry like working on the Sabbath, etc. They don't live under a system of bribes (heaven) and threats (hell).
Since it seems people are beginning to think that I think atheism is not healthy, let me set the record straight. I am an atheist, my original post is meant for a person who's tag starts with "atheism in not healthy", just sayin is also a troll and highly uninventive when it comes to replying to a post.
Fair enough – thank you for clearing that up.
denial HawaiiGuest? The first danger sign. It is o.k. if you think atheism is unhealthy and claim to be one. Recognition of the error of your ways is the first step to recovery.
@i'm not a doctor but i play one on tv
There would be no use in arguing with you as you seem to have judged me already. Think what you want it's not like I would ever know you personally so I couldn't give less of a crap of what you think of me.
Anger? The second danger sign. Read two Bible books and call me in the morning.
obvious troll is obvious
I'll just address one of the many wrong assumptions in this article, the dating of the gospels. Jesus predicted Herod's temple would be destroyed. (Matthew 24:1-2) The Temple was destroyed in 70AD by the Romans, putting down a revolt. Nowhere in the New Testament is the fulfilling of this prophecy mentioned. Logic says the originals were written prior to 70AD, before the destruction of the Temple.
No....
That's some strange logic there. If you were to write a book about the past would you put in a reference to the present within the book itself? Or would you stick with the timeline you are writing about?
@Hawaiiguest – If I were trying to validate that Jesus was not an ordinary man and worth you giving up your life for (the price paid by many early Christians), I would certainly mention a prophecy that had been fulfilled as given.
@webo
Your answer in no way addresses my post.
*** Logic says the originals were written prior to 70AD
Logic says.
That means just another guess so i can prove my point of view.
Another sunday morning quarterback, and waste of time.
@HawaiiGuest & Going in Circles – Do some research, what I described is one of the ways used to date writings of antiquity, all writings of antiquity, of which none can be more soundly verified than the "history" written of in scripture.
@webo
Are you saying that you believe prophecy is an accurate and impartial way to determine the date of a specific set of writings?
@HawaiiGuest – Prophecy,and the fulfillment of it, is the way God "signed" the Bible (See Isaiah 45:20-22 & Isaiah 46:10), but that is not my point.
The reason we see no mention in scripture of the temple being destroyed in 70AD is because it hadn't happen yet. If it had, it would have been mentioned. It was a very significant event at the time, dealing precisely with the subject matter of the writings and one that would not have been ignored.
Example: If I was writing a history of our invasion of Afghanistan, logic would tell you I would mention the destruction of the Twin Towers.
A quick internet search shows no corroboration for your assertion that the gospel of Matthew was written prior to 70A.D. The earliest gospels have dated back to only the 4th century and before that only quotations and fragments can be found. The general consensus among scholars dates the original writings of Matthew between 70-100A.D or 80-85A.D. The only scholars that are more conservative about the date are Traditional Christian Scholars who date it between the 50s and 70s. It would be more logical to go with the wider majority of scholars on the specific timeline. Even with the more conservative timeline there is a 1 in 3 chance that matthews gospel was written after the Herods' Temple.
I'm familiar with the controversy. I'm not debating the earliest copies or fragments in existence, more so the date of the original writings. I just happen to side with the "conservative" dating of the originals as being the most logical.
Perhaps you have the sequence of things turned around. Perhaps the logic of the earlier dating led these "conservative" scholars to then become "Traditional Christian Scholars". Skeptical, but open minded examination, has led many to the faith (ie C.S. Lewis).
Allow me to paraphrase a quote – "There is no surer way to miss the truth than to be convinced you already know it."
Nowhere did I claim to know for sure. However I am saying that from all the different datings from all the different scholars it is more likely that Matthews gospel was written 70A.D. or later.
@HawaiiGuest – Suggestion: Google "Prophecy 101" DVD. It should bring up a video, of the same name, by a Dr Chuck Missler, along with how to order it. It will set you back about $30.00 and cost about 4 hrs of your time, but I really think it could change your life. It'll start out a little dry, going into the physics of time and prophecy, but will then turn into some convincing proofs, using prophecy that has been given and fulfilled in scripture. In the meantime, I'll be praying for you. (Ephesians 1:17-18)
@webo
This goes beyond the point that we were discussing. Also using scripture to prove other scripture is circular logic and I don't really have the time for that kind of thing.
Whenever I see other people's Biblical interpretations that are different from mine, I call them "MISCONCEPTIONS".
That's Christianity for you. LOL!!!!
To my Christian friends, if you really believe the truth will set you free, please check out the following link:
http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm
Be courageous, strive for the truth and check it contents with your own bible. I have checked about 75% of them and they are correct quotes. Please make a 2012 New Year resolution to read the whole bible cover to cover.
Which Bible? The originals, or whatever random translation you happen to have at hand, written by someone you do not know with their own agenda to push?
To my christian friends, i have found a video that will confirm our belief,
and i dont care about having a conversation with non believers....
Maybe you people should get a room.
I am gay, but the idea of you people praying and hugging
and praising your idea of what god is,
makes me sick.
Dont forget to read "Leviticus"
Those shell fish are murder.
You will have to excuse me,
according to the bible, my son just disrespected me,
so now i am going to stone him to death.
BRB.
I have said it before and I will say it again. People actually need to read this thing and to think about it. Not just to "think" they know it.
I do not mean memorizing verses or dreaming up concordances. Read it for what it is, an anthology of a part of the literature from ancient times; a collection of texts. Read it, and attempt to understand what you read there in context – both within the words on the page and in the historical setting in which each separate text was written.
No way. The bible has had wayyyyyyy too much study already. Way too much wasted time, and there are too many copies around compared to what is needed for archival/historical purposes. What the book says is pretty obvious if you have half a brain, and it is all just supersti-tion from primitive people who didn't know any better. Time to mostly just toss the bible aside or use it to prop a door open. Most of the people who study it would do better in their lives if they just learned some reasoning skills and elements of logic, and tossed the Christian bafflegab away entirely.
Yes, I also encourage people to read the Bible from cover to cover. That's the best way to become an atheist.
Yes, Christians especially should read the whole Bible because, as a poll/test showed, on the average they know less about the Bible than atheists and agnostics.
@Michael T.- the type of wisdom and open mindedness you peddle sure is coming through.
Uncouth, eat sh!t and die, ass hole.
I wouldn't bet on that, Observer. Those who love God know Him best and know His word as well. The new born babe in Christ is indwelt with the Spirit of God and as such is already greater than he who is in the world.
Thank you for more examples or your tempered patience and wisdom.
herbie, shut up.
Felix theNavidad,
Guess again. A PEW Research poll/test last year showed Christians know less about general knowledge of the Bible than agnostics and atheists.
@Observer- I do believe that the knoweldge they are speaking of is more spiritual than theological.
although, sure, atheists generally know more about both.
Uncouth Swain,
"I do believe that the knoweldge they are speaking of is more spiritual than theological."
I agree. It's the only attempt at an excuse they can come up with to avoid this embarassment.
@Observer- "I agree. It's the only attempt at an excuse they can come up with to avoid this embarassment."
It's not an answer to avoid embarassment. You just don't accept the concept of spirituality.
I'm embarrassed by my small size.
Uncouth Swain
"It's not an answer to avoid embarassment. You just don't accept the concept of spirituality."
Spirituality I accept. It's the lack of knowledge of the basic tenets of a religion that I can't accept.
I prefer God to polls. From the sampling on these blogs I would draw an opposite conclusion. Rarely have I seen evidence of suchBiblical ignorance as that offered by atheists here.
Ignorance? Yet you haven't read the whole Bible otherwise you'd never say something so stupid.
The Bible is full of crap that can be shown to be crap. Your Bible is crap and your god is crap.
Felix theNavidad,
"I prefer God to polls."
That's fine. You are just ONE PERSON and the poll presented the average Christian in this country.
Odd how no one is bowing to me, join me now...
But i have read the Bible, multiple times and am in love with the author in three persons. Father Son and Holy Spirit. Teddy Roosevelt said thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education.
@Observer- "Spirituality I accept. It's the lack of knowledge of the basic tenets of a religion that I can't accept."
That I can agree with but it's hardly something unique to Christians. In just about every belief system...whether it's religious in nature, philisophical or even scientifically based...there are those that have more blind faith than knowldge about what they believe.