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 The Bible presents us with an evolving story, writes John Shelby Spong.
December 29th, 2011
09:10 AM ET
My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions
By John Shelby Spong, Special to CNN The Bible is both a reservoir of spiritual insight and a cultural icon to which lip service is still paid in the Western world. Yet when the Bible is talked about in public by both believers and critics, it becomes clear that misconceptions abound. To me, three misconceptions stand out and serve to make the Bible hard to comprehend. First, people assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it. The facts are that Abraham, the biblically acknowledged founding father of the Jewish people, whose story forms the earliest content of the Bible, died about 900 years before the first story of Abraham was written in the Old Testament. Actually, that's not in the Bible Can a defining tribal narrative that is passed on orally for 45 generations ever be regarded as history, at least as history is understood today? Moses, the religious genius who put his stamp on the religion of the Old Testament more powerfully than any other figure, died about 300 years before the first story of Moses entered the written form we call Holy Scripture. This means that everything we know about Moses in the Bible had to have passed orally through about 15 generations before achieving written form. Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by? My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality? Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 A.D., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write. Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written - that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John - we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100. For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative. In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side. Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all. My Take: Yes, the Bible really condemns homosexuality Instead, it’s an interpretive account designed to conform the story of Jesus’ death to the messianic yearnings of the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. The Bible interprets life from its particular perspective; it does not record in a factual way the human journey through history. The second major misconception comes from the distorting claim that the Bible is in any literal sense “the word of God.” Only someone who has never read the Bible could make such a claim. The Bible portrays God as hating the Egyptians, stopping the sun in the sky to allow more daylight to enable Joshua to kill more Amorites and ordering King Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites. Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”? The book of Psalms promises happiness to the defeated and exiled Jews only when they can dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks! Is this “the word of God? What kind of God would that be? The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods, for those who commit adultery, for homosexual persons and for any man who has sex with his mother-in-law, just to name a few. The Bible exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters and wives to be obedient to their husbands. Over the centuries, texts like these, taken from the Bible and interpreted literally, have been used as powerful and evil weapons to support killing prejudices and to justify the cruelest kind of inhumanity. The third major misconception is that biblical truth is somehow static and thus unchanging. Instead, the Bible presents us with an evolutionary story, and in those evolving patterns, the permanent value of the Bible is ultimately revealed. It was a long road for human beings and human values to travel between the tribal deity found in the book of Exodus, who orders the death of the firstborn male in every Egyptian household on the night of the Passover, until we reach an understanding of God who commands us to love our enemies. The transition moments on this journey can be studied easily. It was the prophet named Hosea, writing in the eighth century B.C., who changed God’s name to love. It was the prophet named Amos who changed God’s name to justice. It was the prophet we call Jonah who taught us that the love of God is not bounded by the limits of our own ability to love. It was the prophet Micah who understood that beautiful religious rituals and even lavish sacrifices were not the things that worship requires, but rather “to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.” It was the prophet we call Malachi, writing in the fifth century B.C., who finally saw God as a universal experience, transcending all national and tribal boundaries. One has only to look at Christian history to see why these misconceptions are dangerous. They have fed religious persecution and religious wars. They have fueled racism, anti-female biases, anti-Semitism and homophobia.They have fought against science and the explosion of knowledge. The ultimate meaning of the Bible escapes human limits and calls us to a recognition that every life is holy, every life is loved, and every life is called to be all that that life is capable of being. The Bible is, thus, not about religion at all but about becoming deeply and fully human. It issues the invitation to live fully, to love wastefully and to have the courage to be our most complete selves. That is why I treasure this book and why I struggle to reclaim its essential message for our increasingly non-religious world. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong. soundoff (6,068 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor’s note: John Shelby Spong, a former Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, is author of "
Theo7, the reason why these ceremonies as you say are not for our culture today is exactly why we need them with all of the injustice greed lies in difference and all kinds of mayhem, for this is one you can 'believe' we need these ceremonial sacrifices of people getting their lives right. We need to slow down, running to and fro for nothing, things that you can't take with you things that shortens the time that truly matters with each other we need each other, things not worth life itself. To leave here with a fulfilled and joyful heart is worth everything in life. To smell the flowers without having to pay out of pocket and debt to do so, nature should be everywhere for us. And to have the true wholesome regard for life again, and love and peace with righteousness for all no matter the skin. And all the life that YHWH gave to us around us of nature to do right by it as well. People need cleansing bad of all of this pestilence and all unclean behaviors and consumption. Our souls need to be searched out and brought back to the greatest of life to do what is right by ourselves and others all together as one of son of man (mankind). We need the law of righteousness and truth with peace the best guidance as man cannot direct in his own footsteps in Jeremiah 10v23.
Ok, evolutionist's turn. Christians have been doing plenty to present and defend their views. Will any of you who consider yourself worthy articulate how it all began? Nominus? You seem to have some scientific background. Why don't you take the first lead.
How did it all begin (according to Nominus)?
Nii Coffie WHO SAYS THAT I AM UNHAPPY? JUST BECAUSE I LOVE THE TRUTH, WHO DOSEN'T? MAYBE A FOOL. DO NOT JUST TELL ME TO 'BELIEVE' IT OF ANYTHING, GIVE ME THE TRUTH.
Nii Coffie, FURTHERMORE I DON'T NEED YOUR REPONSE, PLEASEEE. Mr. double talk, you tried to insult my writings before in a post, but its funny how you and Theo, another double talker, sure do keep up with my postings regardless, That double talking is taught in the nt(not true) the goodspell, and it preps many for politics, and to be lawyers, lol.
Oh Boy! Is everything this complicated with u. I just want to know why u spew so much venom against Christianity? I can't stand to see people bitter so I just wanted to talk. Anyway I'm glad u r happy. I love u as myself and YHWH does too.
Coco u r saying I laugh @ ur writings? I assure u I do not. I cud not keep up with them n thats y I asked u to keep it down to 500 x'ters. As to ur doctrines I find them unorthodox to say the least obviously bred in mistrust rather than love. I was warning u not laughing. I laugh wit Theo n @ momoya
U want me to give u truth but then u @ the same time doubt my credibility so what is the use. Do u remember this," He that knows not that he knows not is a fool ignore him but he that knows that he knows not is wise teach him." I have no desire tO double talk u. My name is Nii CROFFIE not COFFIE.
In my language the two mean very different things. I just want u to understand that calling out my name and not saying anything helpful or meaninful makes ME doubt ur faith which shud be exhibited by ur love. Salvation is by faith which works by love.
My replies are only 300 characters long so did u read them. I heard u the very first day u said u did not do religions. But then u went on to speak religion even though in an unorthodox manner. It was ur confirmation of LDS involvement that raised red flags for me. Christianity used the OT alone...
The design of the Tabernacle is the architecture of the human brain correlated to the existence of God. That God can exist in different forms was written by Moses. The Spirit brooding @ creation. The 3 men (God n 2 angels) who visited Abraham on His way to destroy Sodom. The man who wrestled Jacob.
'facepalm' First YHWHs name is not yahweh, this I know is used for pronunciation, but its not His name. YHWHs name was removed 6800 times from His book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, the OT, to mislead the flocks. This is why they teach in the nt(not true) to get one wife, the men don't want women, they want to be women, and they want 'boys' as prophesied in Daniel 11 v 37, and in Jeremiah 50 v 37 the wickedness. The war you are speaking of are on the wicked the evil ones that were and are today misleading the flocks. Just as was done in I Kings 17,18 when YHWH sent Elijah to straighten the people out from idolatry against Him about an idol called ba'al who the people said was the son of YHWH and born of a virgin the same story as jc, and those priest and pastors that was misleading the flocks were all killed, yes, by YHWH of their wickedness, wanting to be perverse, and contrary with lies and deceit, the same thing that happened to the boys in the catholic churches, and other religions and churches, by the pedophiles the 'evil' people doing whatever wickedness they want to. Also, what deal are you talking about with the Israelites? You should have referenced it in scripture. Could you be more articulate on what your are saying here?
'facepalm' I must make a correction to the vision of Daniel the truth; although my opinion still stands about the men then and now, not wanting women. But in Daniel 11 v 36 this is Augustus Caesar who began the nuns in celibacy, no desire of women, Augustus began the vestal virgins. But to me it was still a way so they can do the little boys it has always been that way since the Roman rule of wicked evil, and perverse (my opinion, lol). Then it goes into the vs.37 where Augustus magnifies himself over YHWH yet he speaks flattery of YHWH but still thinks of himself as the true God. Then in vs.38, is his force of weapontry. Then vs.39 is Constantine legalizing christianity, and vs.43 is islam all pagan antichrist, and they all RULE OVER MANY today as prophesied in Dan. 11 vs.39 of the 4th kingdom in Daniel 2v40 until this day. And not many are with YHWH and His righteousness and peace, and His law of life, so what does this tell us, that many are running from doing right or are being mislead flocks, and are not under YHWH so it is the pagan religions that are RULING MANY.
Theophillis7, You are the one who asked about the responsibilities of the high priest, so I provided Leviticus 16, and 14 is of the lepers, what's your point? Or is this more of your double talking again? Yes, the cleansing of the people, and the high priest will be responsible, and this will all be as I told you, and what you are avoiding is that the New Third Temple will be built as prophesied in Haggai 2, and the sacrifices will go on from the priest, and high priest day and night is their job of the different ceremonies this will be again in the future new kingdom of YHWH. And, although many christians want to 'believe' that YHWH has many names, NO, this is not what He YHWH says, for one the names are profane to Him, as He says in Ezekiel 36v22,23, and He is angry with the priest and pastors and rabbis and elders for this misleading the flocks, and He will address it as He says in this scripture.You also seem to now want to make jesus the seed of David here, when you know that you christians say that he was born of a holy ghost, and without conception, then over in that nt(not true) you say that he is god, now which is it? so this can never be the seed of David upon the throne David's seeds are from conception of his sons. This man the seed of David, the arm of YHWH, is being or has already been or is to come to be prepped in Isaiah 40 v 10-17, 'taught' by YHWH the Creator to rule for Him, then in Isaiah 40 v 18-31 YHWH magnifies Himself as the King and teacher of us all. Now does this sound like jesus?, according to the goodspell(godspel) jesus knows everything already. Just like in Isaiah 42 v 18-21, YHWH speaks about this servant the seed of David as being blind, deaf, and can't hear, this is not jc according to the story of him he wasn't like this but the servant who will be chosen from the seed of David from the covenant of the chosen children of Israel was lost and now he is found, of his 'seed' and is truly ready as YHWHs servant himself tells us in Isaiah 49 v 1-8, of who he is now this is the seed of David, that will be upon the throne, speaking to us and he is someone who use to labor and work in this world who found himself his 'seed' as again said in Isaiah 53 v 10, of finding his 'seed.' To confirm all of this read in Jeremiah 33v14-21 very carefully. None of this does not sound like the character jesus in the nt(not true) who knew everything even from 12 years old as the jesus story goes. YHWH has never told us of this jc story in the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, the OT because it is a myth, and idolatry and the antichrist as prophesied in Deut.32v17 by Moses that it would be in the latter days. Now people, and since the beginning of the 4th kingdom of man, its also prophesied in Daniel 11v36-12v10, of the antichrist vs.39,43 these are both religions of strange gods of christianity and islam, of the end times, Daniel 2v40. Listen people, when one 'believes' in a thing then it is subjective, and is only in your mind, but when one uses an objective with the subjective then it becomes real. This is why I do not 'believe' in anything, I have to KNOW. They tell you to just 'believe' in that nt(not true), open your eyes to the truth of your Creator YHWH in Isaiah 49v26, the only Savior. Stop misleading the flocks with idolatry, and religions, these are not of YHWH, and you know it.
Nii Coffie, The Truth and the Word of YHWH is no religion. YHWH does not deal with idolatry and paganism, and this is what religions are as He prophesied in Deut.32v17 to Moses and the people.YHWHs law the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20 and Deut.5, the Sabbath and Passover in Leviticus 23, and again the Passover is in Exodus 12, and the dietary plans in Deut. 14 and in Leviticus 11, and these are not religion, these are for our life, to live a prolonged life as Moses tells the people in Deut.32v45-47. YHWH is all Spiritual of righteousness and peace no matter the skin. This is not what is happening in the churches and all religions for over 2000 years nothing but in difference and mayhem with war, and greed. The Law is the way we are to live righteously, by doing, working, and loving with one another, and with peace, and to eat wholesome and clean not unclean meats and foods this is shortening many peoples lives today with diseases and premature deaths. This is not religion and you know this, stop misleading the flocks from YHWH and His love for peace.
Coco inbox me on FB by clicking on my name. I assure u that u will be happier.
Yahweh is a god of war – not of peace, which is exactly why the Israelites tried to make a deal with him.
momoya but frankly u now get my point about humans being emotional and all? That we are the rational guys with reasoning minds because of atheism just won't wash with me! That is not what science says. It says we r emotional and Christ concurs. I have seen too much to follow down that path.
I appologize for my ramblings last night. I missed my medication, but I'm ok now. Thanks to everyone who noticed something was wrong!
Nii Croffie might need some of that medication and a lesson on how to apologize and what for.
Wow how times change! Underground Momoya or is it on the ground Momoya! Men take it easy. lol
2 Peter 2:1-3 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."
Mr. Spong's words place him among the "false prophets/teachers" that Peter spoke about in the passage above. I've learned that there are many like him in the Episcopal/Anglican and Roman Catholic priesthood/leadership. These groups (among others) have many in their ranks who have placed their own ability to "reason" above the truth/wisdom God has revealed & preserved in His word for 1000's of years. He speaks of the Bible as if God had zero involvement in it being penned & preserved throughout history. He has been deceived & is now leading others into the heresies that have snared him.
I assure u dat agnostic/atheist ministers r not a Roman Catholic n Anglican problem. I read an article where Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of Christ ministers admitted 2 an atheist dey didn't believe in God. It is my hope dat u cease tying in Anglican wit Roman Catholic next time. Very prejudiced
I do not want to be all about this Church did this or that but look closely @ ur church members. They will be seeking ordination soon.
WRONG ALL WRONG NO BIBLICAL PROOF JUST TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT
No so.
Mr Ruhland please go on.
I have only one comment to this article Mr former Bishop. " HOW IGNORANT" you are if you think anyone is convinced by
your article.
I do. Ignorant? I think not. Educated and spiritually enlightened. Yes.
Pray tell us your criteria for spiritual enlightenment. As for educated I don't mind @ all. As an Akan will say every hyena has his own preferred meat.
Coco have u ever realized that I do not particularly respond to ur replies or comments? I wud prefer u inbox me on FB with ur queries just by clicking on my name. I suffer too much in having a conversation here. It does not flow well.
facebalm explain ur position please.
"The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong." Thank God!
The 'washing my hands off' principle. If people go to hell applying his takes its their own fault but he wants to be given @ least a hut in Heaven. Very clever. Thanks Di.
Religion = lies, deception and evil. Let's all get rid of this anciente, ridiculous belief system, developed by people who lived ages ago and had little in common with us. Believing in god is just like believing in santa claus. It's fine for children, but when you become an adult it should be obvious that it's just a made up piece of fiction!
Omar...God is real. By now you just have to see the stars, sun and moon and this earth. Who made it all? They bear witness to the existence of the Almighty God, the Creator. And someday, everybody, including you, will stand face to face with Him, giving account to what we have done with our lives. Until today, He still shows His mercy and love through Jesus Christ for everybody to repent. He calls you to Omar...come Omar..come to Jesus. He will save your life unto eternity.
You state it well and true, Omar. Some are past hope, and I was nearly one of them!
Scripture (the topic of this article) talks about False Christ (e.g. Santa Claus) deceiving many. Omar, I think you've been had!
@Theophilus7...
I was thinking the same thing but I really don't know any way to search this forum as it's a fairly basic one. There are now almost 5,400 posts here. One of the forums I used to frequent on a professional basis allows such searches but it's more advanced.
Like you, I've been on here off and on for over two days.
About the only way to locate them is to open each page individually and then do a 'quick find/search' for your name.
Theophilus,
In the spirit of fairness, even though I disagree with much of what you contend, I think that there are quite a few of your sciency posts on page 73.
If particular posts are important to you, the only way to keep track is to old-fashionedly jot the page numbers down on a piece of paper or something like that...
p.s. or if they are *really* important to you, copy them to your own doc. files.
Thanks for the tip guys. This type of discussion topic would definitely benefit from an advanced search tool. That way everyone could just keep piling up their ideas and we can go around dismantling them. I mean that lightly.
"TRH u r not just ignoraant but stupid"
Now I want you all, THEISTS especially, to take a good look at this. This what I got in response to trying to get a healthy debate going. As you can see, I was not successful. This seems to be the common response of the desperate theist. I have seen this before and as a result I have grown a thick skin.
I will NOT respond in kind sir. I am above that. But here is what I WILL say: You have not done the explanation or the rationale of your beliefs any justice at all here my friend. But Mr. Spong has. You have done quite the opposite. And that is what I have found with most of the theists I have spoken with.
Now...I do not judge by the group. I have family and friends who are Christians. We seem to get along in spite of a few healthy discussions from time to time. I just made a new friend this week, a Canadian gentlemen. We met on a FB page as we have a mutual friend and immediately started a debate on religion...it was quite vigorous at times (he is a BAC). But ya know what? WE are now VERY GOOD FRIENDS. Yes, just think about that! An atheist and a BAC! Amazing!
Now THAT is the message that I believe Mr. Spong was trying (and evidently failing) to convey. All you theists could do is find fault with his interpretation, Moses, Isaiah this and Isaiah that, and quote after quote after quote of scripture that of course absolutely refutes anything Mr. Spong stated. And then I myself get THIS: "stupid, ignorant", and all sorts of other arrogant and condescending nonsense.
I will say one more thing: I have seen very few responses in this forum (I have been off and on here for over two days) by theists that would in any way persuade me or intimidate me or indeed shame into a life of belief. What I have seen is arrogance, intolerance, and lately, downright vitriol and HATE. Funny thing is, I'm not surprised. I predicted in one of the first posts on this forum two days ago that I would eventually find the word "heretic" in a post. I did, and not just once. "Blasphemy" came up a couple times also.
And yes....I am well aware that Muslims are also deists. You missed my point entirely but I'll help you out: I should have indeed said the "other" deists in this forum. My point being that the OTHER deists would take the Muslim to task in a far more vigorous manner than the atheist or the agnostic.
Have a nice day.
.'I am well aware that Muslims are also deists"
Obviously I meant to say "theist"...I've been on here far too long.
Welcome to the club! There's plenty plenty of stuff flung back and forth from both sides of this exciting topic. All of us have taken some of it. I'm sorry if I came across to you in any of my posts as demeaning or hateful. I'm here to give a voice from the believing side of the fence. I am well aware that there will be plenty who think less of me for believing, but like you, I'm not insecure in the faith I represent. I believe it stands on its own. I, myself, even on a good day may inadequately convey a good response to a question, but I am truly trying to do my best. Anytime someone feels threatened, and that's anyone no matter who they are or how smart they are, will retaliate in any number of ways to shame their opponent. I don't want to do that. Some of the Bible passages I find that relate to this topic do not pull any punches. You can look for yourself. You'll find the same thing. And maybe some punches shouldn't be pulled. As long as the nature of the discussion doesn't deteriorate indefinitely beyond constructive dialogue to attack, you will likely find someone to talk to about this topic.
Maybe u've grown old here too because u said theist not deist. I didn't insult u for nothing u see. Just wanted to show u how emotional u r. Actually if u had been able to think after that I wud have been surprised as it takes a lot of emotional maturity to b rational. I love u as myself.
Theophillis7, You keep double talking, your knowledge has perverted thee, in Isaiah 47v7-11, as most christians, and religious people do and are, trying to make up things and add things by changing what YHWH put into the truth His Word, and it changes NOT as He says in Malachi 3v6. First christians say that jesus is the son of God, and the on son and firstborn YHWH says is in Exodus 4v22,23, then you say that jesus is God, so which is it? If YHWH says He changes not this means His law nor His Word ok. There is no need for any sacrifice for YHWH has fogiven and redeemed our sins as said in Isaiah 44v22 and to return unto Him, and He told us that He is the only savior in Isaiah 43v3,11 and in Isaiah 49v26 and in Isaiah 60v16, and His chosen Israel Jacob yes will bring the light (peace) unto the gentiles and nations in Jeremiah 16v16-21, so please save your double talk with me, and stop misleading the flocks. The NT(not true) it mimics well, but never is the Word of the Creator YHWH is to be changed. YHWH is not contrary this way never did He say His name is jesus.
Theophillis7 We are not to change anything of YHWHs Spirituality of peace and righteousness to all mankind no matter the skin with the sins of idolatry and religion of in difference and wars and the dividing of the flocks. YHWH does not condone ANY religions they are all pagan to Him as He had Moses to tell and teach us in Deut.32v17, devils.
CoCo, the reason you and I aren't areeing is obvious. You stop at the book of Malachi. I continue reading through to Revelation. If you continued as well, you might discover that some of the things I've been writing are not novel or new. They are coming from a portion of the Bible you have chosen not to read. I can continue to discuss from OT and try to point you to the Redeemer, the Kinsman Redeemer. If that works for you, then I'll do that. I've actually been trying that, come to think of it. Did you read Psalm 110? And we can discuss the Law if you wish. Have you wrestled with Israel's need for Atonement? Or the qualifications of the High Priest? That's all in the OT. Very relevant. Share your take on it. Then you have something you and I can keep going on.
Why is it that one atheist cannot understand that another atheist's views may be wrong? Oh, Oh let me try! Because atheism is a religion. I frankly don't have any intention of insulting u neither have I. I do not care whether there is God or not. I obey Him and reap de benefits. Freedom of religion
Nii Croffie, This post is in reference to your post on the Europeans being gods in the bible from the pope: Yes, you're right and it all starts right over in that NT(not true), which Christianity was an offshoot from Judaism who originated in idols sun gods who worshiped pagan idols and called them gods Amen Sirapus Amen Rah, and the Christians until this day say Amen to their pagan god jc. Religions period all come from idolatry and they do idols not of YHWH and the fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the true covenant. These men of Christianity took from the Egyptian the rituals of the resurrections regarding the afterlife, from the mummies of the Egyptians. They also called each other Lord and God in the Roman times of AD calling their rulers gods and they still think this way ruling over the poor and minorities and what they call the undesirables. This then stemmed over into these same men calling themselves kings and we all know that the only true King is YHWH this is why He says in Ezekiel 36v22,23 that these men have profaned His name thinking that they are gods and kings and it will all come to the end of the show down of the 'end times,' and it is in the near future as prophesied in Isaiah 47 of the daughter of Babylong in one day says YHWH. This is why many of the rich are leaving the US. Many come back and forth but do not live here anymore.
Believers insult non-believer because they have nothing to back their nonsense! What they "believe "defies" reason and intelligence. Thats why they have to use the word "faith"... God, and the utopian "heaven" (and punishing hell) were constructed to address our knowledge of our own mortality. But there is no proof of anything after this life! In truth, the only facts are, we're born, live for a period of time, then we die – and that's it. Anything else is fantasy (or perhaps delusion).The real nightmare occurs when "believers" use their "made up" DOGMA to oppress others! Gays, women, (in the past those designated as slaves) were all made to suffer based on "faith". The further away from "religion" the world moves the closer to sanity we get.
And u know there is no after-life because science says so! Thank u well said. We are happy for u. Don't forget to love ur neighbour as urself. INSURANCE AGAINST HELL IF THERE IS ONE AND A HAPPY LIFE ON EARTH. bye.
Al, This is true there is no afterlife, but there is something after that, and it is taught in the book of remembrance, the OT from the Creator YHWH in Malachi 3v16 is this book's true name;that the SEEDS of son of man are what comes after life, your seeds and your children's seeds, this is the Truth in Deut.32v45-47. We are to live a 'prolonged life' if we do righteously, and eat the way YHWH taught us to in the truth of this book from Genesis – Malachi. The NT(not true) has mislead the flocks to believe this 'afterlife' mess. This is why there are so many misconceptions of the true Creator YHWH and of His spirituality of peace and righteousness for all no matter the skin. It is from these writers of the NT(not true) who took the flocks away from the truth for their gain. YHWHs name was never Lord or GOD nor jesus, this too was to mislead us.
Al, To Add YHWH does not condone religions they are all pagan and idolatry, He taught us that in Deut.32v17. He is spiritual of all people and righteousness. What He stands for is for our life to live right by it.
Forget about the sayings of other people.
Forget about the Judaism, Christianity, and the Islam taught today.
Just read the Quran and you may actually see the reality of the teachings of GOD.
LOL!
Coco now u see u r promoting ur own religion? I told u former cultists do 3 things. Join an Orthodox faith/join a cult/form his own cult. When Enoch walked with God n was no more 4 God took him where was he taken. Where was Elijah taken by de chariots of fire? Job said he wud see God after death!
Nii – this is a great argument for afterlife.
The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel
The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel Written in 1985 by Jack Bernstein A CHALLENGE. THE CONTENTS OF THIS BOOK ARE EXPECTED TO BRING A STRONG REACTION ...
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm – Cached
Do we have a Muslim checking into our lively debate? Oh....the theists in this forum will have a field day with you...have fun!
TRH theists include muslims u moron. Al salaam aleikum, Iqbal!
TRH u r not just ignoraant but stupid
TRH please science has not upgraded Evolution to a fact yet because we use evidence for the Law of Variation to confirm Evolution. If u have evidence which are independent of Variation please contact ur nearest university for a reward. Don't spread the lie that it is a fact just cos of ur religion.
Y momoya have u now reduced de length of ur comments 2 avoid detection? Very stealth as I almost missed u. I assure u dat u just jumped from 1 religion 2 anoder. As 2 being spiritual I don't know what dat has 2 do wit religion. Love ur neighbour as urself n b ethical. The Bible's message u missed!
When u ask an atheist to advance clear scientific evidence to disprove God's existence they cannot but they will advance legal arguments very easily. Hmm more lawyer jokes in there somewhere. lol
The Bible is not a science book though it is scientifically accurate. It addresses your real need – sin. If you are foreign to that word or concept, it means to miss the mark. Miss God's mark.
God made man with the ability to choose. Adam chose disobedience. His source code was altered forever from then on with the vi-rus of 'sin.' And that horrible perverted code was passed onto the human genome for generation after generation. Instead of destroying us, God chose to redeem us. He transferred the effects of the code onto Christ. Some of us may still operate in a perverted manner due to the sin source code, but you don't have to. You can receive Christ and inherit His perfect code. May it replicate throughout you and alter the course of your life, here and hereafter.
Scientifically accurate? Hardly.
Since when is the Earth a circle?
Isaiah 40:22
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth
Scientifically accurate?
Leviticus:
14:1
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
14:2
This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
14:3
And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper;
14:4
Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
14:5
And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
14:6
As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
14:7
And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field."
Following this there is more hocus-pocus with a lamb and the priest sticking his blo-ody finger in the sufferer's ear and all sorts of other "scientific" spells and incantations.
"It addresses your real need – sin."
So we need the bible to tell us right from wrong?
"though it is scientifically accurate."
Not even close....you know better.
"His source code was altered"
Injecting 21st Century terminology into a bronze age myth. How clever.
"Some of us may still operate in a perverted manner "
Oh, yes...here you are quite correct, although your definition of "perverted" might differ from mine. Here's one of my examples of perversion...no, not of holy scripture, but of human decency. His name is Fred Phelps. Check out his website...it's (****)....very uplifting isn't it? The forum censors apparently think Mr. Phelps' website isn't fit to print. I would tend to agree. That's OK, you'll find it easily enough...if you have the courage.
"May it replicate throughout you and alter the course of your life"
I have in my many years seen a few life courses altered by you beliefs...to their detriment.
Jiimtanker you used hocus pocus! do u know that it was invented by religious folks? Besides this prove that this remedy did not work!
TRH have u ever pondered why u r an atheist? Is it not b'cos u have decided to reject certain information. I have heard theories of evolution of viruses from atheists. I have heard from atheists that scientists and computers prophesy. Why? I think u need a break. Stop displaying ur ignorance.
To TRH,
A friend told me that no one has the AUTHORITY to tell me what is wrong or right. He says it is subjective. Is he wrong or is he right? Explain your answer, pretty please.
If science was ur religion u wud not b preoccupied with truth u wud accept everything as probable instead of making fun of other people's experiences. Atheism is ur religion so stop dragging science in there. Its shameful nd dishonest.
@Ed,
Your friend is an idiot. A modern civil society cannot exist in the anarchic state which your friend describes. As part of a society, we delegate authority to a few who then determine what is right or wrong. Here in the US, that power is the government with the three branches each playing a unique role. No, since not everyone's code of behavior – morals – is the same, we divide the country into several sub-categories, each having its own scope of authority. In this way, while there are similarities between the laws in, say, a county in Texas and a county in California, they are not the same. Morality is thus relative. It is up to us (via our representatives) to define that morality.
In the early stages of civilization, religion played the role of all three branches of our modern democracy – creation, enforcement, and adjudication. Religion's role is now no longer needed but sticks around none the less since we havne't fully evolved past it; kind of like an appendix.
Of course, even the morality defined by the christian god in the bible is highly relative.
TRH have u ever pondered why u r an atheist? Is it not b'cos u have decided to reject certain information. I have heard theories of evolution of viruses from atheists. I have heard from atheists that scientists and computers prophesy. Why? I think u need a break. Stop displaying ur ignorance.
Frankly and I mean no disrespect but I cannot respond to this. It is nearly unintelligible...except the last sentence. Now....I DO NOT SEE any answers to the ones I posed in my response to you. Your only response is condescending and insulting. You have NOT attempted any debate at all except to call me ignorant which is the last refuge of the theist....and yes...this forum is RIFE with it.
@Theophilus7,
"His source code was altered forever from then on with the vi-rus of 'sin.' And that horrible perverted code was passed onto the human genome for generation after generation. Instead of destroying us, God chose to redeem us. He transferred the effects of the code onto Christ. "
First, out of curiosity, why do believers often try to make their arguments sound rational and scientific when their whole argument boils down to something like, "you must have faith"?
Second, if the effects on this 'sin code' are transferred to Christ, then why is there still suffering and death in the world? I thought it was sin that brought death and suffering into the world.
Facepalm u r not helping ur case very much by being brash. It is too irrational and untruthful to say religion ruled in the past. What society ws that? Even theocracies are ruled by politicins so what are u talking about? Ur ideas do not hve historical basis.
@Nii – this topic, the evolutionary basis for religion, is one that has been studied by many sociologists and anthropologists. But if you would rather just insult me than try to educate yourself, that's your choice.
Many early societies thought that there rulers WERE gods (e.g. Egyptians, to name one of MANY). Many of the books of the bibles are based upon authoritarian figures who obtained that right through 'god'. European leaders for centuries had to be anointed by the pope.
Get your head out of the sand.
'A friend told me that no one has the AUTHORITY to tell me what is wrong or right. He says it is subjective. Is he wrong or is he right? Explain your answer, pretty please."
Is this a game? Your conscience and sense of decency should tell you right from wrong with some help from the proper nurturing in childhood. And you, like the OP refuse to debate my point by point criticism of his post. I REALLY want to hear your explanation for the rational of Fred Phelps....PLEASE.
At least you didn't call me ignorant like the OP did....I can only assume, because he refuses to debate, that THAT is the reason he called me that. Here I am.
"Jiimtanker you used hocus pocus! do u know that it was invented by religious folks? Besides this prove that this remedy did not work!"
[sigh] This is becoming embarrassing.
"But if you would rather just insult me than try to educate yourself, that's your choice."
Oh, he would trust me. I'm TRH whom he said was displaying my ignorance.
Jim, are you saying the earth isn't round? I think you might have a few people disagree with you, even from your own camp. If you haven't read my illustrations yet, go back in this blog. I gave a number of examples to show how the Bible is scientifically accurate. If you are quibble about circle vs round, sounds like you have shut off the ability to reason.
Psalm 14:1-7 “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.”
I think many will agree that ignorance can be fixed. Ignorance on purpose cannot.
I’m not expecting you to believe. I’m presenting information for you to consider. I think it’s fair for believers to give reasons for the hope that lies within them to people such as yourself. If you are so disgusted with this type of conversation, why have you spent so much time on this blog?
My faith teaches me to continue to reach out. I believe there are Christians who need to know that the Word of God has and will continue to stand the test of scrutiny and continue to heal a hurting soul. If that believer helps change your tire because He loves His neighbor and His God then praise the Lord. You can revile us all you want. You would not want to live on a planet full of people who don’t love their neighbor.
The God of the Bible is not opposed to reason. He made your mind and lets you make your own conclusions about Him. But He constantly pursues you even if you run from Him. That’s His love.
Isaiah 1:18 says: “Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”
@Theophilus7,
I'm not sure about @Jim, but I will quibble about circle vs spherical, because, as I understand it, there is a specific word in Hebrew for sphere or ball which is used in the Bible and perhaps even the same verse, but the specific word for circle was used instead. In addition, isn't the entire history of Christianity about quibbling?
Explain to me how the Bible denounces slavery without quibbling? Or the sequence of life on the Earth? Or how to load and Ark? Or how the Great Flood occurred? Or where dinosaur bones came from?
Sorry, same book, Isaiah 22:18, not verse as Isaiah 40:22.
To Theophilus 7...........
"'I gave a number of examples to show how the Bible is scientifically accurate."
There are now well over 5,300 posts in this forum. Please be kind enough to repeat at least a few of those examples. Give us a break here. I'm sure you can remember them. Frankly I cannot....of course I'm ignorant.
zzzzzzzzzzzz
Nominus-religion was a tool for political leaders. Communism 101 will teach u this. That is why they r atheist b'cos now they don't need religion to control the masses only a personality cult necessary.
"theories of evolution"
That my friend is now considered accepted fact, not theory...at least, the evidence is overwhelming IF YOU BOTHER TO RESEARCH AND READ. It is readily accepted by many theists also. Of course they tend to say that "yes we evolved but God caused it all to happen." Well..... (PLEASE read Richard Dawkins' "The Greatest Show on Earth" 2009)
And in the last five or six years, the "creationists" after being thoroughly trounced by logic and science, have come up with their latest weapon...."intelligent design." This can be easily refuted and has. For every example of intelligent design there are several examples of "unintelligent design". In a program I watched last evening, the ratio is about 1 to 10. It is now being "sold" as an alternate "theory" to counter to evolution.
This resulted in two huge court battles in Kansas and the small town of Dover, Pennsylvania. In all three cases (two in Kansas, one in PA) ID proponents wanted to force the school systems to teach ID along side Evolution as an alternative. They said, believing this was a totally innocent thing to do in the classroom, said "Just teach the debate." Right. Disingenuous at best.
In all three cases the ID proponents were defeated and in two of the three cases the members of the school board (Republican social conservatives) were voted out. Logic and common sense triumphs once again, as it has ever since the Scopes trial in 1925. Yes, I know scopes was found guilty but it nearly destroyed the sanity of William Jennings Bryan and it made people of intellect and common sense think. It's a shame really because Bryan was known as a friend of the common people. He died five days after the trial (which he won). Some say the stress of the trial killed him.
Study history and science along with your bible. In my own ignorant (as I have been called on this forum) opinion that is what Mr. Spong has done here....along with using his logic and common sense. And you theists, at least the majority of you by my observation, Just cannot STAND that.
Nominus – Thanks for your comments. Many believers choose to convey Biblical truth to people unfamiliar with the Bible by using today's terminology so that there could be lively discussion like this blog. Otherwise, if believers ONLY attempted to convey Biblical truth using terms from the Bible, there would be a huge disconnect. First, a misunderstanding of the term. Second, many who don't believe, just tune out the argument when hearing a term that comes from the Bible because they are emotionally and psychologically opposed to it. I would prefer to get it out there in such a way that people engage and enter the fray. Obviously my method worked as you can see the response it generated. Truth is truth and can be wrestled with, just like gravity is gravity no matter what term you use to define it. Scientists will often choose different terms to discuss things with non-scientists in an attempt to have a reasonable intelligent discussion. Not for the purpose of 'dumbing it down.' Most communicators do this instinctively.
Now to get to your real question, which btw... I believe is one of the best I've heard yet from the unbelieving camp on this blog. I was waiting for someone to finally wrestle with this. Yes, you are correct. Sin is what brought death and suffering into the world. The final punishment of sin is what was transferred to Christ on the Cross. In other words, if you enter into a covenant relationship with God through Christ by believing on Him, then when you die and face judgement, you will escape the penalty of your sin. You will enter paradise. Just like the thief on the Cross who professed faith in Christ. You will be judged for what you did as a believer but that is different from whether or not you go to heaven. The creation itself remains under the judgement of sin according to the Bible. Instead of the abundance of the garden of Eden before sin, we must work the land (Genesis 3:18-19) to get anything from it. That was part of God’s judgement for sin. And if you see a neighbor who doesn’t tend to his yard, then you could basically see this in action. Btw… Law of Entropy confirms this which also is another proof evolution is hogwash. We are not going from disorder to order, but the other way around.
TRH – earlier in this blog, I argued this extensively so I don't want to waste a bunch of time regurgitating it all. I will if I have to, but just go back and read for yourself. Either way, if you think ID is a new thing, it's not. It's another way of saying Genesis 1:1. Read my reply to Nominus. Believers use conventional terms to get the conversation going; otherwise, people just tune out. Sure, I agree ... keep the teaching of ID out of public classrooms. That's taxpayer money and we shouldn't be shoving beliefs down our kids throats using taxpayer money. But if you go there, then you better chuck out Evolution because it is a 'theory' with no empirical proof whatsoever. It's a religion based on faith. Chuck them both out of the public schools. Let kids wrestle with real science, stuff they can observe and test. If you wish to setup a church of evolution, go do it. Just don't make the rest of us taxpayers listen to the lie that we all came from a rock 4.6 billion years ago, and grandpa was born from an ape. Sure grandpa behaves like one, but we can't prove it happened.
Theophilus7:
There is no way to efficiently search these 77 pages of comments for your alleged gems. If you want to refer TRH, or anyone else, to them, please at least cite a page number.
"Evolution because it is a 'theory' with no empirical proof whatsoever. It's a religion based on faith."
This is beyond appalling. I freely confess to you I have no response to this. You have won sir. I have no words. To the victor go the spoils.
To anyone – if you there's a way to see all comments contributed by a certain person in this blog, let me know. I truly appreciate what Nominus and TRH are bringing to this party. They are engaging intellectually and have great questions, which has been a little rare among the non-believing camp over the course of this blog. I have invested a ton of time and energy responding and posting over the last however many days we've been going at this. It would be a pain to have to re-post a bunch of stuff. I can, and will if someone really cares enough. But it's me doing all the work because you don't want to. Ask Nii Croffie if I have answered these arguments. He's been here on this blog quite awhile. I'd like to forge new ground if possible. (If anybody knows how to help some of these others find my prior posts, please let us know. Thanks!)
'If you wish to setup a church of evolution, go do it. Just don't make the rest of us taxpayers listen to the lie that we all came from a rock 4.6 billion years ago, and grandpa was born from an ape. Sure grandpa behaves like one, but we can't prove it happened."
Truly, William Jennings Bryan would be proud. As I said before I no longer have the strength to fight you.
Theophillis7, This post is in reference to the Atonement and of the qualifications of the high priest. In Haggai 2, it tells us of the rebuilding of the Third Temple that will come in the future, in the new kingdom and yes these sacrifices will be put back on day and night of the priest, and also the qualifications of the high priest they will be as said in Leviticus 16 on the 7th month of the year once a year in October for the atonement for we count from Abibe as the first month of the year is what it is, and will be again when that new temple goes up. To confirm historically the high priest was in Psalms110, and it was Melchizedek of Salem in Genesis. Now in Psalms 110 this is not jc. I keep telling you that all of these scriptures in the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, the so called OT not the nt, but the OT are talking about David! gosh! and the SEED of David. In Isaiah 40v10-17 YHWH tells us of this servant He calls him His arm. Do you notice in all of the scriptures that are in Isaiah of the servant the elect the arm; these are all about David and his seed (descendants that will be upon the throne in Jeremiah 33v14-26) and in Isaiah 42 YHWH says my servant, my elect,49,my servant,53 my righteous servant, now read Jeremiah 33v14-26 very carefully its David,and Jeremiah 23v1-8, its David the same servant elect upon the throne, and these are prophesied for the future, and also David was born in Bethlehem. Therefore, are you christians this blind or that intense of denial from the truth? And let me explain the Lord and LORD in Psalms 110 is a transliteration one of them has been changed even when you read it one can tell its not right, probably changed from the word 'servant' or 'elect' one must discern this book for there were words taken out to mislead the flocks. To add, remember this the name Lord LORD God these too are transliterations, changed words, and is not the true name of the Creator YHWH anyway, these are profane as YHWH says in Ezekiel 36v22,23.
Theophillis7, Another thing everywhere that you see the words Lord God GOD, these transliterations were where the true name of the Creator YHWH was. His name was taken out 6800 times according to the history of the jewish writings began in 200BCE to mislead the flocks. And in Jeremiah 33v14-26 in vs.22 the seeds of David the servant that will be upon the throne they will number as the host of heaven, and as the sands cannot be counted in the new kingdom of YHWH.
To Bizarre in reference to Leviticus 14 – your name on this blog is indicative of the passage you have chosen. Without a framework to place this passage in the context of the whole Word of God, what you get is simply bizarre, especially if you are not a believer.
Nevertheless, my take is that the book of Leviticus is one of the most amazing yet puzzling books in all of Scripture. You see in it YHWH’s plan for the priesthood of Israel. God chose Israel from among all the nations of the earth to glorify His name through them. The priests, especially the high priest, played a very important role in the lives of the people since they were chosen by a holy God to be holy. (see my blog eons ago about how a misunderstanding and misappropriation of the holiness of God will cause you to not understand much of what God did through Israel in the OT).
Many of the ceremonies and rituals seemingly make no sense to us culturally; however, God was guiding and leading these people, teaching them, and sanctifying them using rituals that would later become pictures of His plan and His message. The picture of the leper is likened to mankind’s sin. Our sin before a holy God is comparable to a leper among the general masses. Untouchable. In YHWH’s eyes, His holiness cannot coexist with sin, ever, and it doesn’t. Taking the leper outside the camp was done ritually at the time. But once again, God left us a message in His peculiar actions. Sin defiles us. When you are consumed by sin in your thoughts, you are defiling yourself. Sin can also be cleansed and your soul restored. The cleansing of the leper is symbolic to the cleansing of a sinner from personal sin. For a believer, engaging in sin separates you from fellowship with a Holy God. By leaving the camp, dealing with your sin, and restoring yourself through Christ, you are then ready to fellowship again with the LORD. Jesus is our High Priest, for those who believe. So whatever the human priest did for Israel, Christ does for His church. The healing of the leper is God’s doing. The bird sacrificed is a type pointing to the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for our sins, atoning for them. Note: Jesus cleansing of lepers in the New Testament proved not only that He was God incarnate, but it correlated to Him being our High Priest (those who knew Leviticus at time of Christ were awestruck by more than just the miracle). Only God can forgive sin. Only God can restore us to Himself. We present ourselves and He does the rest. Genesis confirms that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin (compare Genesis 4 and Hebrews 9:22). The live bird with the blood is symbolic of a believer who has been cleansed by the blood of Christ. God’s holiness cannot coexist with sin. If I myself sin, then the bird sacrificed represents Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross for my sin. The live bird with the blood is the forgiveness I receive when I confess my sin (see I John 1:9). Only the priest (Lev 13:13) could pronounce a leper clean if he was indeed healed. Likewise, Christ , our High Priest is the only one who could declare us clean through our confession of sin (I John 1:9). Seven is a number representative of rest. On the 7th day God rested (Genesis 2:2-3). When someone is in sin, they are considered not at rest. Instead they are at odds with a holy God, so no, they are not at rest. When sin is cleansed, you are restored to a holy God and now at rest again. Those who come to Christ have entered into a permanent rest with a holy God (read Hebrews chapter 4). But Christians will sin from time to time – compare this cleansing ritual in OT with the NT where Christians confess and turn from their sin. Similar. I could continue discoursing on this passage, but honestly, I could go on a very long time and most people on this blog likely stopped reading this after the second sentence.
"The Bible is not a science book though it is scientifically accurate"
You've GOT to be kidding.
CoCo – Yes, YHWH's name has been written in so many different ways. He often gave us names to tell more about His character. Even the priests would perform cleansing rituals after writing His name because His name is holy. I speak His name to bring Him glory and honor. And I am covered under the blood covenant of my faith in Christ. Under that covenant, I may speak His name. I don't speak His name to profane it. Nor to blaspheme it.
If any including Coco wish to search out the names of God in the Bible, you will likely find plenty through a google search. Or if so inclined, get your hands on a Bible Dictionary. You will learn a lot about His character in the names He used for Himself in the Old Testament.
Psalm 113:2 "Blessed be the name of the Lord from this time forth and for evermore."
Margot77 – see page 73 of this blog. I listed some of the references that show the Bible is scientifically accurate. Sure, it is also the miraculous which defies scientific explanation. But I think you would have gathered that already after reading the very first book of the Bible.
Btw... evolution has no empirical scientific proof. We covered in this blog pages ago. The smartest atheists will admit that. See some of Christopher Hitchen's debates. Many not familiar with this common debate have only held Darwin's observations and missed all the other evolutionist's claims. Darwin merely saw differentiation within kinds. Differentiation within kinds is Biblical – see Genesis. It's the LEAP people have made with the observable evidence that got many chasing their ancestor back to a rock 4.6 billion years ago. (single celled organism). There are 5 other definitions of evolution before you even get to Darwin. And none of them have been proved, not a single one! Cosmic evolution – time, space, and matter coming into existence at one time by an uncaused cause. All three are explained in Genesis 1:1 in 10 words. Ask an evolutionist to explain it to you. Good luck with that. If you have matter but no space, where would you put it? If you have space but no time, when would you put it? That's just the first. There's chemical evolution – btw... how did we get all the elements we have in our periodic table? If you say fusion. You can't fuse any elements past iron. No evolutionist wants to go here. Stellar and planetary evolution – origin of stars and planets. Do you know that no one has seen a star die? Not one. Organic evolution – Life originating from non-living material. This would be a stretch for even the most imaginative fifth grader. Also – not proven. I've covered much of this in previous discussions. Welcome to the party! Enjoy the ride.
CoCo – if you spent any time in the NT, you would discover how close your are to discovering your Messiah. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Jesus will be sitting on the throne of David in the Millennial Kingdom. I need to have some more Road to Emmaus conversations with you. You are so very close it's just amazing.
Theophilus 7 U r a real giant killer thank U. I'm sorry TRH but honour is due to its hero!
@Theophilus7,
"The final punishment of sin is what was transferred to Christ on the Cross."
So, the crucifixion of Christ gave believers an IOU for the payment of the sin tax. Convenient that nothing actually happens until after death. Although, I'm still a bit confused about the "creation itself remains under the judgement of sin." So, God judged all of creation for the sin of Adam and Eve? How is that fair?
But what it boils down to is that humans apparently must deal with the full weight of all sin throughout this life, whether they believe or not, by enduring pain, suffering, and death. Only after death, if they believed in Christ, will He pay off the sin tax. Is that right? So there is no way for a believer to know ahead of time, i.e. before death, if they are believing/behaving correctly. Is that right? There's no feedback from God on how they are doing, so there is no real evidence that anyone is believing/behaving correctly, right? Ultimately, how do you know that you are right about belief in Christ?
"Law of Entropy confirms this which also is another proof evolution is hogwash. We are not going from disorder to order, but the other way around."
This is, as you say, "hogwash." I think you are referring to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2lot), which in no way disproves evolution. This has been addressed by scientists many times and comes down to, I think, two main points 1) The 2lot deals with an isolated system, which the Earth is not, due to the Sun being a continual energy/particle source and 2) Even if it were isolated, the 2lot only deals in overall entropy, and does not preclude variations in entropy within the system, e.g. while the Earth may lose some 'entropy' through the evolution of organisms, it is gaining more than it loses by the very processes of life, like burning food for energy, and death, like decay and decomposition.
"Violation of the second law of thermodynamics" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution)
"Evolution as Described by the Second Law of Thermodynamics" (http://www.physorg.com/news137679868.html)
"Creationism and the Laws of Thermodynamics" (http://ncse.com/rncse/25/5-6/creationism-laws-thermodynamics)
"Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics: Effectively Communicating to Non-technicians" (http://www.springerlink.com/content/hw3x1015312u167w/)
{Theophilus7 to Margot77} "Btw... evolution has no empirical scientific proof. We covered in this blog pages ago. The smartest atheists will admit that."
This is also "hogwash." First in the sense that science doesn't deal in "proof," and second that there is plenty of *empirical evidence* to support the Theory of Evolution. In your posting you incorrectly conflate multiple disciplines into evolution, e.g. cosmology, chemistry, physics, etc. The Theory of Evolution describes the diversification of life that we find in nature since life began. It does not deal with non-life, e.g. stellar formation, chemical "evolution," geology, etc.
Theophilus7,
Re: The dead dove leprosy cure
Oh my. Wow. You are quite the creative thinker. I'll bet English Lit. profs love(d) you when ana.lyzing the symbolism of fiction and poetry - that is, if their eyes weren't bleeding from trying to read your horrendous, mammoth, unbroken blocks of text!
Interesting, for sure, but your musings are just that - musings. If I were a real creative sort, I'll bet that I could think up quite a stirring scenario about the superst.ition of throwing salt over one's shoulder for luck too... maybe something about guidance from Poseidon.