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 The Bible presents us with an evolving story, writes John Shelby Spong.
December 29th, 2011
09:10 AM ET
My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions
By John Shelby Spong, Special to CNN The Bible is both a reservoir of spiritual insight and a cultural icon to which lip service is still paid in the Western world. Yet when the Bible is talked about in public by both believers and critics, it becomes clear that misconceptions abound. To me, three misconceptions stand out and serve to make the Bible hard to comprehend. First, people assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it. The facts are that Abraham, the biblically acknowledged founding father of the Jewish people, whose story forms the earliest content of the Bible, died about 900 years before the first story of Abraham was written in the Old Testament. Actually, that's not in the Bible Can a defining tribal narrative that is passed on orally for 45 generations ever be regarded as history, at least as history is understood today? Moses, the religious genius who put his stamp on the religion of the Old Testament more powerfully than any other figure, died about 300 years before the first story of Moses entered the written form we call Holy Scripture. This means that everything we know about Moses in the Bible had to have passed orally through about 15 generations before achieving written form. Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by? My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality? Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 A.D., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write. Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written - that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John - we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100. For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative. In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side. Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all. My Take: Yes, the Bible really condemns homosexuality Instead, it’s an interpretive account designed to conform the story of Jesus’ death to the messianic yearnings of the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. The Bible interprets life from its particular perspective; it does not record in a factual way the human journey through history. The second major misconception comes from the distorting claim that the Bible is in any literal sense “the word of God.” Only someone who has never read the Bible could make such a claim. The Bible portrays God as hating the Egyptians, stopping the sun in the sky to allow more daylight to enable Joshua to kill more Amorites and ordering King Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites. Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”? The book of Psalms promises happiness to the defeated and exiled Jews only when they can dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks! Is this “the word of God? What kind of God would that be? The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods, for those who commit adultery, for homosexual persons and for any man who has sex with his mother-in-law, just to name a few. The Bible exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters and wives to be obedient to their husbands. Over the centuries, texts like these, taken from the Bible and interpreted literally, have been used as powerful and evil weapons to support killing prejudices and to justify the cruelest kind of inhumanity. The third major misconception is that biblical truth is somehow static and thus unchanging. Instead, the Bible presents us with an evolutionary story, and in those evolving patterns, the permanent value of the Bible is ultimately revealed. It was a long road for human beings and human values to travel between the tribal deity found in the book of Exodus, who orders the death of the firstborn male in every Egyptian household on the night of the Passover, until we reach an understanding of God who commands us to love our enemies. The transition moments on this journey can be studied easily. It was the prophet named Hosea, writing in the eighth century B.C., who changed God’s name to love. It was the prophet named Amos who changed God’s name to justice. It was the prophet we call Jonah who taught us that the love of God is not bounded by the limits of our own ability to love. It was the prophet Micah who understood that beautiful religious rituals and even lavish sacrifices were not the things that worship requires, but rather “to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.” It was the prophet we call Malachi, writing in the fifth century B.C., who finally saw God as a universal experience, transcending all national and tribal boundaries. One has only to look at Christian history to see why these misconceptions are dangerous. They have fed religious persecution and religious wars. They have fueled racism, anti-female biases, anti-Semitism and homophobia.They have fought against science and the explosion of knowledge. The ultimate meaning of the Bible escapes human limits and calls us to a recognition that every life is holy, every life is loved, and every life is called to be all that that life is capable of being. The Bible is, thus, not about religion at all but about becoming deeply and fully human. It issues the invitation to live fully, to love wastefully and to have the courage to be our most complete selves. That is why I treasure this book and why I struggle to reclaim its essential message for our increasingly non-religious world. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong. soundoff (6,068 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor’s note: John Shelby Spong, a former Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, is author of "
jimtanker, There is nothing unreal about spirituality, this is absolutely the way of life, look all around you, the trees the sky our waters the earth the birds and animals these are the spirituality of life and we are mankind who are suppose to take responsibility in preserving life and especially our own and make life a priority but we don't we put material things first and is why many of us are lost and pretty much uninvolved unless its got to do with money or things and this is sad. People should all gather around a dinner table and truly love one another and talk to one another and share this sounds like a sitcome because this is the only time many see this which is a shame. Righteousness and peace goes along way, and doing right by one another no matter the skin, in this way it will be enough for everyone. People don't have to be greedy and selfish and afraid to loose, but now its all mayhem and ludicrous at how we run to and fro and never actually see life for what it truly is and its precious, it can be gone with a snap. Spirituality is learning to slow down and take the time to enjoy life, and its free or should be, and simple just using the heart for goodness.
CoCo not how u act but how u react. What is the use of saying all this n calling me a liar? How much do u know about me to make that judgement. Remember Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Spirituality is to love ur neighbor as yourself.
Nii Croffie, I though we were done here? Truce remember? And first you said that jesus was joshua the high priest, then you took it back, then you said jesus is YHWH, then you said jesus is the son. Next you said that YHWH says the woman carries the seed without any scripture, and in Genesis 3v15 it says the seed of the serpant and his head will be bruised,and the seed of the woman, then it says (his) heel will be bruised, son of man. Then you said that Moses talked about the afterlife, and gave no scripture to this but all through Deuteronomy Moses describes to the people that they will have a prolonged life if they do the law. That the law is our Life in Deut. 32v45-47. So no I am not giving false witness on you, you are doing this greatly with them on your own. I am only calling it as you are doing it. YHWH says His son and firstborn is in Exodus 4v22,23 of ISRAEL the chosen people and there cannot be two firstborn sons. YHWH says He is the Only Savior and Redeemer in Isaiah 49v26 and in many other scripture He says do not equal Him to no one in Isaiah 40v18. and Isaiah 40v16-31. Remember YHWH never changes His Word, in Malachi 3v6.
Anyone who sees everything wrong with every religion n believes his beliefs r the best is in a cult. Who taught u this unhistorical things. I hope it is not You Hurt We Happy. YHWH looks at how much we love our neighbor as ourselve not our religion. Moses wrote that. I will not give u the quotation.
Nii Croffie, Who taught me that all religions are idolatry is YHWH, when He had Moses to tell the people about strange gods (newly) raised up in the latter days of the future generations in Deut. 32v17, this is just what it is. If this is what YHWH says He does not want us to do them then this is His Word. YHWH says not to put nothing before Him and this means RELIGIONS, IDOLATRY He does not DO THEM they are not YHWH the Heavenly Creator. He also said do not compare Him to no one in Isaiah 40v18. Also, He taught us about idols in Deut. 4, and 5, and in Exodus 20, not to make any images in the liking to the heavens of a man or of a woman, or to depict who you may think He looks like, never, we are to never do this, but religions do this anyway they make idols pictures statues of jesus and mary, and in islam a stone praising them and this is not allowed, these are images of idolatry, and this is not YHWH. YHWH is not a belief this is the Word the Law of Life of the Creator YHWH, in Deut.32v45-47, and of course He wants us to love each other as neighbors when did I say that He did not, I've always said that we are to love each other and live righteously for ourselves and others, and in peace, doing living and caring for one another as ourselves no matter the skin from the righteousness of YHWH, is what I've always said in many of my post, so what are you twist talking about? YHWH is the spirituality of righteousness and peace. This is why its call The Lord(YHWH) Our Righteousness in Jeremiah 23v1-8. And in this scripture He also says that the priest and pastors are leading the flocks astray.Many of you have forgotten your own true Creator YHWH and He only ask for us all to come back in Isaiah 44v22 and in Malachi 3v7. YHWH has not changed any of His Words as He says in Malachi 3v6.
PS1547, Maybe they know it is the truth, people have been doing religions for 2000 years now and it has not made things better at all only more in different and dividing the people, and gross wars, accept for trying to be one of the group but there is nothing genuine just clicks among each other almost like high school. People are realizing that something is wrong and are just going along with the flow. For nobody wants to make waves anymore just walk around numb and believe but not know anything. And many here are atheist, I'm beginning to think that this is just a site for atheist only. At least they have an opinion or thought of their own.
Nii Croffie, this is what happens when you read and learn from those apocrypha books (Hidden lies), you are confused. Jeshua is the son of Jozadak in Ezra 5v2, and Joshua is the son of Josedech in Zech.6 vs.11 the high priest and if you read in I Kings 8 you can see that Solomon is the one who built the Second Temple for YHWH. You need to get out of those lying books of apocrypha. Take care sir. But if your lies are misleading the flocks then proceed with what you do best. And people this guy is not all here. Just to lie with no problem what so ever. Hey, the pope sanctioned Slavery pope Leo XIII christianity in 1890 is a bust pope nicolas v in 1452 and it still predicates on it ruling over many as prophesied in Daniel 11v39 that it would .
Maybe you Mr croffie could stop mixing truth with lies for a day geeze yes Zadok was with David Dawie Dawud the govenor first then he anointed with oil and trumpet Solomon as governor (not king) only YHWH is King Israel of Judah Yhwhuda. YHWH Bless.
As I said CoCo use the little strength u have to break free of YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS just as u did LDS. I frankly do not intend to fight with u. Go to Wikipedia n check out the history of the two Popes u give. As for me lying is not my hobby so if u find someone saying I am then watch out!
Isn't it amazing that only 2 or 3 guys are posting in here on the subject of the Bible? One even says they know each other. Where are the other 500,000,000 religous zealots that like to swear by religion when they are called to vote, but can't show up to stand up for their Bible? They don't show up because they don't know what to say.....unless some crooked religous leader tells them what to say. Otherwise, they can't speak for themselves.
Or maybe scraping a living in the 3rd world, Persecuted in the Communist world or don't speak English, not computer literate, busy serving in charities or performing rituals. They are 7bn. Atheists are just the small change.
Nii Croffie, once again you are double talking, and all of my post are from the passages and scriptures of the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16 the so called OT now when did this become a problem using the words from YHWH in the book, that's like an oxymoron, so now you want to use a double standard with the double talking unbelievably, hopeless. You just cannot tell the truth with a straight face. And Moses did not say anything about 'afterlife' he said that we can live a prolonged wholesome life in Deut. 32v45-47. I provide the scripture to what I represent and never do you. Spirituality is real not made up make believe and I know that is far from your ability to grasp. You've been in apocrypha for so long you think its normal. I keep telling you that I do not do religions so there is no group, aren't any groups one is responsible for their own righteousness as said in Ezekiel 14v14, I read and study and research on my own for the truth. YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS A WEBSITE AND PHONE NUMBER THAT ASSIST IN ANY QUESTIONS THAT ONE MAY HAVE Keeping one free to discern for themselves. Plain and simple. The pope that sanction slavery leo XIII and Nicolas V are suppose to be christians and if this is their example need I say more, I'll pass.For the good ship jesus was the first slave ship and is this what christians represent?Never mind. In Jeremiah 23v1-8 this is the arm of YHWH written in the OT as The Lord Our Righteousness to guide and service the flocks. As I said before a truce has been called you do not have to like what I like and that is truth and thats ok, do what you do but it will be a waste of our time otherwise. I suggest that we move on right? right.
A) if u say u r not in a religion b) if u say people are lying c) if u r using a book with a special name d) if u r being helped but don't see what u r giving e) u fight with anyone who tells u to be careful e) u have a special knowledge nobody knows u r in a cult CoCo and may Yahweh Adonai help u!
CoCo the worst kind of cult is the one whom u can't defend in a sensible language. that is why u write long posts which are unhelpful. U know u r in a cult but u do not want to admit it. leave them with their INFORMATION HOTLINE, ETC. the YHWH is not Yahweh. It means You Hurt We Happy.
Nii Croffie, All of your post report abuse, hmmm... well anyhow, why is it that everytime the mentioning of the Temple is said christians and jews always bring up 70ad of Herod, knowing that he did not build any temple he tried to rebuild on Solomon's Temple to establish himself like all edomites do, and it did not work. The Second Temple was truly built by Solomon the son of David. And later Zerubbabel was to restore it in the 5th, 6th century. Then why did you say that Joshusa was in Ezra, no he's not, everyone else was, Zerubbabel, Ezra, Obadiah, Zechariah, the Levites, Haggai, Daniel the priest Jeshua the high priest, Cyrus the Great, for the restoring of the Second Temple. Then you wonder why I call you double talk. And my English is just fine or else you would not respond to my post and see again more twist and double crap. You need another drink that is something you said you do often, and I can tell, for when you do so much twisting you have to do something to numb the denial. This is not anger hate or animosity before you whine, and tell another fib, its just the darn truth gosh. You are a pickle.
The damn truth is u saw Joshua the High Priest in Ezra and u say he was Jeshua the High Priest but u cannot reconcile that they are one person. Thats just tooo funny. haahaahaahaa.... Oh CoCo now I don't even know what the problem is with u. Please read the Bible urself u can understand it. lol
CoCo who told u Solomon built the 2nd Temple. First u were speaking nonsense but I understand now. the Jewish temples (builders/High Priest) are 1Tabernacle(Moses/Aaron) 2 Tabernacle(David/Abiathar) 1 Temple(Solomon/Zadok) 2 Temple(Zerubabbel/Joshua ben Josedech) 3 Temple (Herod the Great/Ananias)
As to animosity, and pickles and onions and fibs. U r just making my day. U r using very aggressive language but it seems u have no idea that u r. CoCo I release u from all culpability on language grounds. Dictionairre s'il vous plait.
Nii Croffe, Seriously, Lets Draw a Truce, for You Know Who I Am, and I Know Who You Are, and it will only be a waste of our time, find new flocks to prey this one will not fold. Selah, and YHWH Bless. Take heed people. Go and Google YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS the Branch of Jeremiah 23v1-8 or call 1-773-874-0325, with any OT or nt historical questions.
CoCo now I thought u were sleeping. As I said earlier either u do not understand English or ur character is disrespectful. Now u do not have to say my name again or u do not interfere when I post. As to u becoming my disciple I really do not care as I'm not LDS but Anglican and we don't care.
Again I studied the Bible on my own so study hard. I am free to express my opinions here n u r too. But I do not push my ideas. Just as u called me to teach u do the same n find ur way 'cos I don't see u as special.
As to ur posts I cannot mke head or tail of it but when I am calm again I will respond or not.
Please if u allowed anyone 2 finish what de LDS started thats ur problem but I only study science n de Bible not religious bigotry n propaganda. YHWH our righteousness,etc r just like LDS-no freedom,aimless knowledge. I am free n I am happy. I won't lose a days sleep over it. I love u as myself. Bye
As I told u earlier from LDS A) u either go back to LDS or B) join another cult or C) form ur own. I think u chose option B. YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is just another LDS maybe worse. Be careful. I will pray for u. The info they give u check it on Wikipedia. if u can google u can use Wikipedia too.
Be careful about them Coco. Google Spiritual Abuse n look 4 help from the websites. We Jews n Christians don't fight s much as we have so I knew something was wrong. Jews n Christians respect each other n we agree on everything about de Messiah in de OT except dat we say he is Jesus of Nazareth.
Nii Croffie, You show me one scripture that reveals YHWH ever changing what He says, why didn't you provide that scripture? You can't. The reason I call it double talk is because according to the Orthodox Bible which is good for historical purposes it tells us that most of what you say is considered Aprocypha( meaning Hidden), from the Septuagint tradition(hear say) 3rd century bce, about jesus, after the last jewish roman revolt of Simon bar Kokhba 135 ce the romans won and renamed Jerusalem Alia Captialia and Israel Palestine until this day, and all this writing apocrypha, from the maccabees edomites, esau, in 180bce, and the hellenistic jewish roman writers began in 200bce of jewish christians who were from Gresia(Greek) refer to the book of Esther when many jews edomites were ran to Gresia becoming jewish (Greece,Turks) after failing to conquer Israel the chosen people then they had to run from the Persians the enemey of Gresia to (Greek), thanks to Esther who YHWH had arranged. Later coming back after 332bce of Alexander the Great who then conquered the Persians, after Alexander's death, the jewish hellenistic alexandria greek writers request of Ptolemy II making up your idol jesus. YHWH does not HIDE anything as said in Amos 3v7. According to the Orthodox Bible after the Babylonian conquest in 586bce, Southern Palestine, Judah, became Idumea esau, prophesied in the book of Obadiah, and in Psalms 137 of the captivity of the true Israel the chosen people of YHWH, they were cut off by YHWH for their sins against YHWH, and esau's descendants were there, for this is his prophecy that esau is to hunt Gen27, Now, this is why YHWH had prophesied by true prophets in Ezekiel 36v1-5 about Idumea it will fall as also said in Daniel 11v14, and in Malachi 1v1-5. And I do not pick scriptures I use the whole chapters or books and dates stop (twisting) using that demagoguery style of the edomites esau, it will not work on me, lol. I know who you are many here have no clue some atheist do, but many don't and the mislead flocks don't either, but I see you descendant of Exodus 17v14-16 for generations they will and have been the enemy in Psalms 83, of YHWH. Misleading the flocks as said in Ezekiel 34, but it will not prevail. And never did I say the 2nd Temple you twist that, that was Zerubbabel the Messiah of Judah then, 6thcn. I said the Third Temple that is to come in Haggai 2, and again, none of this say jesus, NOW, you are agreeing that Joshua *(his seed) will become the high priest unto the true Servant from the (seed) of David, the Branch of YHWH. The true Prophecy is progressing just fine, and the New Covenant of YHWH will come in Jeremiah 31v31-40, in the next ( ) year or years people its nearing soon. Prophesied by other true prophets in Hosea 6 vs.1-11, it says 2days it means 2000 or so years later, now days. In Habakkuk 2 vs.1-4, of it not tarring, it will come, and vs.4 YHWH speaks of the servant of YHWH that he will find his seed and will be on the throne to govern the flocks. One has to read and study, Gen.- Malachi the book of remembrance, the true name of the book in Malachi 3v16, of the so called OT to know the truth
So no oral traditions are in fact reliable? Is slavery in Jewish culture different in how and why became a slave in American (African slave trade)? If so, is it possible that progression in thought and culture attempts to rewrite the facts of the Bible? A Supreme Being couldn't speak historically through others hundreds of years removed regarding creation and the life of Moses? Has a biography ever been written years after a person's life ceased? Are there more questions raised by this priest than answered?
"So no oral traditions are in fact reliable?" Correct, no oral traditions can be verified as 100% truth, that is the nature of an oral tradition thats meaning is filtered through each retelling.
"Is slavery in Jewish culture different in how and why became a slave in American" Not exactly sure of your question, but yes, the slavery in the bible was a bit different that American slavery but only in that they had a few more protections for the slaves, and were not treated quite as brutally as American slaves were, but the dehumanizing, beatings and forced labor were much the same.
"If so, is it possible that progression in thought and culture attempts to rewrite the facts of the Bible?" Yes, culture has always sought to rewrite the facts that don't suit them. Christians often claim that the Hebrew scriptures no longer apply now that Christ came and fulfilled the Abrahamic covenant, but that is just a convenient excuse so they can discard all the evidence of the violent God they worship who killed adulterers by the thousands but lets his servants have multiple wives, incestuaous relations, and even forgives the murdering adulterer David.
"Are there more questions raised by this priest than answered?" Raising valid questions is far better than giving pat answers.
@GodPot A real pleasure to read.
Hmmm??? Well, in Amos 1, and in the book of Joel 3, it will reveal slavery as does Deut.28v68, on ships, also Deut.15-67 prophesies fulfilled. Slaved From black and white jewish edomites, color didn't matter it was conspiracy of war against YHWH and the rich land and the money gold and silver. The conspiracy in Pslams 83, of the enemy of the Creator YHWH against Israel, and the greek jews ordered for the bondage of all the chosen people, the Hebrew Isralites and they were not talked anymore about after 161BCE none, Anything after this time is the maccabees edomite jews. Marisa a commercial agent of Idumea put a bounty out for Palestine against Israel the chosen to sell Israel away to the Greeks. Pslams 137, and the book of Obadiah, tearing down anything from YHWH and His chosen children trying to erase history. The true name of YHWH was removed over 6800 times by them to erase the Hebrews so called black people then but now are all over the earth as prophesied they would be. And its no such thing as white people they are caucasian or european or gentile. And they the gentiles as will other nations be brought to the light in Jeremiah 16v16-21 future prophecy of YHWH.
Hmm??? I FORGOT TO ADD THAT THE GREEK JEWISH DID THE BOUNTY, NO MATTER THE COLOR THEY WERE BLACK THEY WERE WHITE JEWS WHO WANTED IT ALL. THEY HATED YHWH AND ISRAEL THE CHOSEN PEOPLE THE HEBREW ISRAELIS.
I won't take this priest's word for it. He obviously has little faith. There's numerous archealogical discoveries that have been made because of the bible, and they have been found just as the bible describes where their location is. Are you kidding.....there's also proof of a world flood EVERYWHERE. But no, I guess hard evidence doesn't matter these days. All that matters is that a man said no such history exists by writing it on paper or in this case an online article. And because of this, what he says must be true. I totally believe you priest -.-
You're just wrong. Archeological discoveries do NOT prove a world-wide flood, nor do they prove any other biblical story. You have been lied to if you think that archeology proves anything in the bible.
Hard evidence DOES matter, and the hard evidence implies that the bible's stories are completely false. And if you're ignoring all the evidence that doesn't fit what you already believe, then you are actively doing that which you accuse others of doing. Maybe a good place for you to start is the "flood." The flood could NOT have happened on this planet–go research and find out for yourself why.
Momoya knowing the Scripture is not enough practising is what confirms it. As to academic opinions they are diverse. If u choose to look elsewhere for academic enlightenment fine but frankly ur statement that the whole Bible is false is 1 of those opinions. Have u read all the books to assert this?
Wow...Momoya.....where have you been your whole life?
Chariots have been found in the red sea dating back to the time of Moses. But, I guess some drunk army decided to just ride themselves into the water right? Archeological discoveries almost as big as the pyramids themselves have been found hundreds of feet below sea level in the pacific ocean. Just recently another archeoligical discoverys has been found under the sand in the middle east that dates back before the dawn of Man. What do you have to say to this? Do you eat up everything the mainstream tells you? If so, you are greatly decieved. Since you're on CNN....I can pretty much guess you do such things. I'm only here because I have nothing else to do ATM.
not so
Yeah, this article is full of ****. Looks like they're trying to make the bible look bad, but at the end saying its okay. That's ridiculous.
Nii Croffie, This is the response from all of your mini posts. What insults are you speaking of? I have not insulted you nor anyone here. What is your problem too much double talking is what is wrong. Listen, the only New Covenant is definitely, definitely, not the NT(not true), the New Covenant that will come as prophesied for the future kingdom is in JEREMIAH 31V31-40 of the Creator YHWH, where YHWH will put His LAW into the inward parts of son of man, His flocks, and write it in their Hearts. This will be the Future New Covenant sir. The seed of a woman ok, why didn't you provide this scripture? hmm. Yes Moses saw the back of YHWH, the servant should not be called Eternal Father nor Almighty God, the rest is fine, and the servant called suffering is fins for he does until this day, servant is Lord maybe ok for lower case lord not for YHWH, He is not any Lord this would be profane. The rest I AGREE except shiloh whats that? Did you mean grave? And to add the son the holy spirit and YHWH this is the trinity right? Well I don't agree only if you mean Isreal the chosen people who is the son of YHWH as YHWH says in Exodus v22,23 then I guess its fine. And goodnite sir maybe we should call this a truce, lol you seem so upset. I'm only a woman who thrist for truth. goodbye.
Also as a woman I will take it that u did not know u were wronging me n forget about it. Your personaal opinions r ur own. We do not frankly want to interfere with that. I am not ready to force u to accept my positions. If u want to search for the Scriptures. I will not give u quotations.
For u to use goodnight it means u r from the far east maybe China or Philippines. However I learnt my Scriptures without Sunday School. Reading everything not memorising verses but obeying Christ's teachings. I am happy as a result. U know de verses but u choose deir meaning so I won't quote.Search
When u talk about the crown of Joshua waiting for the 3rd Temple I laugh. If u tell a Jew that his race is the Messiah he will laugh. The 2nd Temple and the crown of Joshua are long gone so what memorial are they waiting for. Read the passage don't pick out verses. That will not help u. Gudnite.
Nii Croffie, I see you brought back up, Leo the lion heart. First the Messiah should not have so many names that is the nt(not true) doing that besides there is not scripture in the OT the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, that says Messiah anyway other than Daniel 9v25, of Zerubabbel calling him Prince and Messiah, and if the jehova witness say Micheal is jesus again it too is idolatry all religions are idolatry not the Spirituality of YHWH. Now in Zech.3v8, YHWH is speaking to Joshua about the fellows that sit before Joshua the high priest, and how they are men wondered at, and YHWH tells Joshua that He will bring forth THE SERVANT THE BRANCH. Then YHWH tells Joshua that in one day He will remove the iniquity of the land, and everyman can be called neighbor. Next, did you even read Isaiah 7 for there is a second son Immanuel, and before he reaches 2 or can discern, he will be a sign for the king Ahaz that the two adversaries of YHWH will be dead. The first son is the oldest who is Shearjashub and he was to go with Isaiah to see and tell the king Ahaz, he's a grown young man. So Isaiah's wife could not be a virgin here she has a grown son. Mahershalalhazbaz is the third son to come latter on he is a sign for the 10 tribes of Jacob to be exiled by YHWH for their transgressions. This born of a virgin is to mislead the flocks again the book has to be discerned for the writers changed words and this phrase, it should be 'almah' that was in the Hebrew text. There is no hostility towards christianity its just that they lie, and the other religions do too, bowing down to a rock Islam absurd, and they change what YHWH says for He is the only Savior and Redeemer as in Isaiah 49v26 and Isaiah 60v16 says. And YHWH never changes in Malachi 3v6. Oh heres a tip, the Joshua son of Nun with Moses is dead, but this will be Joshua the son of Josedech the high priest of his SEED (descendant) YHWH told me to tell you that. Selah, Praise YHWH.
Nii Croffie, OK boys, heres one to grow on, as Moses had Aaron as the high priest, then Joshua, Next, Zerubbabel had Jeshua as the high priest, and Joshua the son of Josedech will be the new high priest to the new Servant of YHWH, the MAN that will build the Third Temple of YHWH as Zerubbabel once did trying to restore the Second Temple, and all are His Branch, the Almighty YHWH.
YHWH doesn't exist, I know because Words with Friends didn't let me play it...
CoCo when u use the verse in Malachi which says I am the Lord and I change not to anchor ur point u commit the first error of exegesis which is to say do not exalt one Scripture above another. There are countless instances that show YHWH changing His Mind.
Second u do not use words like double talk, liar, lies to address me as I do not intend to lie or cheat u. I do not care what ur personal religion is. I frankly do not care that much about religion but calling me a liar when u ask me for an opinion is rude and insulting.
You're all a bunch of fruitcakes arguing about something that doesn't really exist. That's like two kids arguing about who is the more powerfull superhero.
Nutjobs.
Most Jews suspected that the Messiah wud b called Joshua/Yeshuah hence a lot of false Messiahs were called Joshua/Yeshua in the AD100s. Shiloh is not Sheol which means grave. I wud like to help u if u want but language is a barrier. English Bibles are not helping u. But u r trying. Search
Oooh Jiimtanker and co. u r sooo boooring. Can't u go somewhere where u can all talk about how rationally emotional and intelligently ignorant u r? I don't know why u bother but u r making me proud and that is bad for rational thinking. I love u guys as myself. Relax, atheism is not going anywhere.
Nii,
You wouldn't know the first thing about rational thinking if it came up and bit you on the azz.
Booooriiing! Bye Byeee! Taaraaa! Asto Lovista Baby!
Leo, Alright, there is a lot of double talking in the nt(not true), for there is not any Hebrew text that shows YHWH as Lord,stop fibbing, Lord God are profane as YHWH says in Ezekiel 36v22,23, for everywhere the words Lord and God are in the OT YHWH was removed 6800 times, and YHWH will address the heathens accordingly in the day of YHWH. Furthermore, this is the English version of the Hebrew name for YHWH all consonants for there were no vowels in early Hebrew. David was born in Bethlehem as written in I Samuel 16,17 and this is described also in Micah 5v2 about David, and all the scriptures in the book of remembrance the OT show David and his seeds(plural) as the servant the elect the arm of YHWH, as to be upon the throne(metaphor), as said in Jeremiah 33v14-26, by YHWH, and His Branch, no jc. When did Joshua the high priest become jesus, YHWH specifically says in Zech.3v8, that Joshua will serve as the high priest with the Servant the Branch of YHWH is what this is saying, and Joshua is not jesus. For in Zech.6v12 YHWH is speaking to Zechariah, and YHWH tells him to speak to Joshua to behold the man whose name is the Branch that will build the temple of YHWH. Joshua will be among the Branch as the high priest for Joshua's father Josedech is also a high priest. YHWH does not say the name of this man that will reign upon the throne(metaphor). Now, if Joshua is jesus how is it that Joshua is the son of Josedeh the high priest? I thought you christians said that jesus was the son of YHWH, then christians say jesus is YHWH. Then that jesus was born of a virgin so there is no seed here at all, not even from Joseph for which in the Nt(not true) there you say that Joseph is from the seed of Jessie, but Joseph never layed with mary gosh! so many lies, hey which one is it? So this with mary is not a man, its the antichrist, and the son of man are conceived by 'SEEDS'. Remember YHWH said Behold the 'MAN' whose name is the Branch, in Zech.6v12. Stop trying to mislead the flocks they're not fools.
Leo, If one would read further down in Zech.6v15, it will show Zechariah the prophet telling Joshua the high priest that now watch this, '(IF) HE JOSHUA WILL DILINGENTLY OBEY THE VOICE OF YHWH, THEN ALL THIS SHALL COME TO PASS.' Next in vs.14, the crowns of silver and gold that Joshua has will all be distributed to the others in the Branch as a memorial in the Third Temple of YHWH.
CoCo it is best u read the Bible in ur language and not the LDS Bible in English. Leo and I use English as our first language. Joshua son of Josedech was the High Priest who built the Second Temple which Herod expanded. Read Ezra. Joshua was a symbol of the Messiah-Jesus OR in Hebrew Joshua/Yeshua
Joshua was a High priest but Christ will be King and High Priest. Mary was probably a Levite as Priests married only Levites and Elizbeth her cousin was married to a Priest. Mary married Joseph, Son of David who in Law was his father because ur wife's children are ur children unless u complain.
Nii Croffie, Joshua is not jesus, you know you really need to get it together, Joshua was with Moses, and when did his name change from Joshua to jesus?, yep right on over into that NT(not true), lies. Oh, don't forget also that you christians say that jesus is also YHWH God, then christians say jesus is the Son of YHWH, then they say he's Emmanuel, who is truly the son Immanuel, of Isaiah in chapter 7, for a sign to the king Ahaz, and then you christians call him Micheal the angel, then you christians call him yeshua, now you're saying he's Joshua. Ok, so jesus was with Moses when the people were in bondange in Egypt? Wow. Christians need to make up their minds or stop lying jesus is not even mentioned in the OT nowhere and not even by His so called Father the Creator YHWH, He has not prophesied jesus at all only David and his seed, of David, gosh!. The only Son and Firstborn is in Exodus 4v22,23, and it is ISRAEL, JACOB, the chosen children of YHWH, so are you christians feeble or what? Also, I did not say that other nations are restricted or limited to the nt, what are you talking about, 'not my words'. Selah! and Praise YHWH, the only Savior and Redeemer we have flocks in Isaiah 49v26, and in Isaiah 60v16. No one else can deliver us from out of His hands in Isaiah 43v13.
Nii Croffie, the scripture is in Zechariah 3 vs.8, and again YHWH says that Joshua will be with the 'SERVANT' of YHWH, where do you see the name jesus here? Also, flocks David was born in Bethlehem of Nazereth right out of the root of Jessie. I Samuel 16,17, and is the chosen servant of the Almighty YHWH. And David's seed will be upon the throne(metephore), this is said in Jeremiah 33v14-26. Clue flocks YHWH does NOTHING without His servants or prophets said to us by YHWH through His prophet Amos 3v7. And YHWH Does Not Change for our sakes to know the truth, in Malachi 3v6.
Did u read the passage or u picked out a verse. If u did read the Passages u will give a better view. The Messiah had so many names but u asked for Jesus so I showed u. Yeshuah, Joshua n Jesus are the same name so y were u going on about Moses. Its hard to understand u but I believe I try. Try too.
The son of Isaiah was called Mahershalalhashbash not Immanuel as u wud have as believe. Immanuel wud be born by a maiden which may be a virgin or not but of marriageable age. Not Isaiah's wife.
As for the obvious hostility u have for Christianity and the New Testament it is of no consequence whatsoever. I have better fish to fry. So insult me but my passages show clearly we have had a 2000 yr headstart. We are not an offshoot of Rabbinic Judaism but of Classical Judaism.
If we had all this time I don't think hordes of atheists, Aryans, Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons can drown out our voices easily. The Rock is coming to smash the Idol and become the Mountain. No misinterpretation no matter how subtle will the Holy Spirit allow to flourish.
Christians do not call Christ Angel Michael as it reduces His rank and this is forbidden. Jehovah Witnesses do and consider Him an Angel. Yakov Ben Yitshak Ben Avraham El Yisrael is not the Messiah but He was to be of his line.
Jesus, Joshua, Yeshua are all the same Hebrew Name which means Yawhew YHWH Savior. The Bible prophesied hundreds of years that the Messiah would come in YHWH's name.
Prophecy:
Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the LORD;
We have blessed you from the house of the LORD. Psalm 118:26
Fulfillment:
The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David;
BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD;Hosanna in the highest!” Matthew 21:9
Note to the Last post when the Bible translates the tetragramaton YHWH into english they translate it as LORD.
the Father, the Son and Spirit are God. Elohim is compound meaning Gods but representing compoundness hence the capitalization. Hence the "Let us make man...".
“Oh, don't forget also that you christians say that jesus is also YHWH God, then christians say jesus is the Son of YHWH, then they say he's Emmanuel, who is truly the son Immanuel, of Isaiah in chapter 7,”
It is the Bible that teaches Christians these things:
Old Testament LORD translated from YHWH proclaims he is the first and the Last.
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 44:6
Jesus clearly proclaims that he is God when he quotes
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: Revelation 2:8
Prophesy
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14
Fulfilled
“ BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “ GOD WITH US.” Matthew 1:23
Jesus was not born in Bethlehem of Judaea not Bethlehem of Nazareth (no such place existed). Nazareth of Galilee was another village other than Bethlehem of Judaea. Read the New Testament ok its not as bad as u think
Prophesy of Bethlehem
“ But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” Micah 5:2
Fulfilled
Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child. While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. Luke 2:4-6
When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.” Luke 2:15
Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?” John 7:42
Leo the program is to use the OT prophesies only if u cud help it. Avoid quotation of the ch. and verse. just quote the passage. thanks.
LEO if I come in your name (or represent you) I am not you. Your statement is not accurate.
Adam, No, I did not say that the kingdoms were religion, it was probably my diction in writing that was misrepresented, but yes this scripture is in Daniel 2v1-49 of the idol that was determining the different kingdoms in the vision of Daniel and what they mean especially of the 4th kingdom going to be a new kingdom before or by the 5th. And I do have a problem of seeing this to be jesus, for all of the scriptures tells us David and his seed that will be upon the throne as in Jeremiah 23v1-8 and Jeremiah 33v14-26, who YHWH calls him His servant, elect, and arm, and of the seed of David's Branch, and many others scriptures say these too as in Isaiah 42, and Isaiah 53 vs.11, these are all the seed of David, there has never been the name jesus mentioned and he nor his story is not ever talked about in the OT the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16,by YHWH none. Why do christian always assume this without it being said by YHWH? For He tells us everything else. YHWH mentions everyone and prophesied everyone why not His son jesus, He did talk about His Son and Firstborn in Exodus 4v22,23 and YHWH says it is the chosen people 'ISRAEL.' Religions are Idolatry.
Look to Zechariah's prophesy concerning Joshua (Jesus) the High Priest. The Hebrew Bible was used by the Christians for a long time as I told u.
Zechariah prophesied about Jesus using Joshua the High Priest in Zech 3 and Zech 6:9-15
the Dream of Nebuchadnezzer the Second concerning the future of his Kingdom was fulfilled as the Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. These were the Kingdoms who took charge of Babylon's lands. Afterwards myriad kingdoms rule these lands. These will be swept away by Christ in His Second Coming.
CoCo u make me sad with ur insults and accusations. I do not believe a simple this is what I think is possible with u so I am ready to go with u on that level. Insult me till u r tired but till they wipe the board I will use so many Bible passages u will not have enough insults to counter them.
U want to talk about the Messiah as the Seed of David. YHWH called Him the Seed of the Woman.
YHWH called Him the Seed of Abraham as well.
Jacob prophesied about Him using Shiloh
God promised Moses that he will see his very form or True Image/Likeness.
Moses prophesied that a Prophet like him will come and establish a new covenant (New Testament) with the House of Israel
Isaiah prophesied that He will be called Mighty God, Wonderful, Counselor, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
He also used The Suffering Servant and The Lord's Servant.
David prophesied that the Lord said to his Lord,'sit at my right hand till I set ur enemies at ur feet'.
Now since u r so good @ interpreting the Bible give me the Passages. If not I will not even like to use any of those words u used on me. There are better things to use my intellect for than insulting u. I believe that I shud love Christians, my neighbour, and my enemies as myself. U r covered. Amen
Where are all those evolutionists? I put out the challenge for you to come forward and present a clear description of how everything began. How did it all start? In your opinion.
Interestingly, seems most of you either don't understand evolution enough to present it, or you are afraid to have anyone critique what you say. Seems like you would rather troll through the CNN belief blog to rail against the believers. Most would consider that cowardly.
If you are a champion of evolution, this is your time. Step forward. Speak your case for how it all began!
And your evidence? The biblical text which makes no sense, was stolen from other cultures and was orally passed on for 900 years before someone took the time to write it down. Really? At least science is trying to discover how life began instead of blindly reading a book with so many historical inaccuracies and self written contradictions you wouldn't use it as a guide to on how to get to the grocery store.
@RagingLamb
You said, "Where are all those evolutionists? I put out the challenge for you to come forward and present a clear description of how everything began. How did it all start? In your opinion."
Time and space started at the "big bang" (you may have heard of it). Because both time and space started with that event, it is fundamentally unknowable what "preceded" it. There is even a slight chance that there is some creature, operating outside our universe that kick started the process.
It is perfectly acceptable to say "I don't know (yet)". But, to claim that some sheep herders a few thousand years ago figured it all out, and that their god somehow was involved is outrageously stupid. It is beyond moronic to accept "my god did it" when there isn't a single shred of evidence even suggesting there are any gods (including yours, if you have any). To blindly claim he/she/it did anything, is intellectually dishonest, as it requires ignoring scientific theories supported by evidence, and accepting a hypothesis supported by none.
If you are truly interested in the science behind evolution, I recommend to pick up a science book. Start by tossing any books of fables, as you will find no truth in them. If you open your mind and your eyes, you should be able to find mountains of evidence in support of the scientific description of evolution, and none for the religious ones.
Ummm. People don't have to pretend to know stuff.... I don't know if you're aware of that. There's lots of stuff we don't know. It's the way it is. Religious people claim to know, but their knowledge is derived from ancient myths and interpretations of those myths.
As to your general "How did it all begin" question, Evolution doesn't deal with that, you might be thinking of cosmology or theoretical physics or something like that. When we look at starlight and study time and light distortion and factor in the various gravitational effects on galaxies and such, it looks like ALL the known universe was in one place at one time (a little bitty dot) and about 14? Billion years ago that space began expanding and has never stopped. It continues today and will continue past your death.
Evolution is a different idea. It describes the process whereby species adapt through reproduction and genetic expression over time. It's a pretty established science. I imagine that you can do quite a bit of self education online and order the books you need from Amazon. You should be able to educate yourself so you don't have these sorts of dilemmas.
LinCA
You said "There is even a slight chance that there is some creature, operating outside our universe that kick started the process."
Would that be about the same chance that the Tooth Fairy did it?
I'd rather you would tell me how God made a woman out of a Man's Rib and then told them to populate the earth. If that is the case, we are all victims of incest and in breeding. The DNA from Adam's rib would be the same as Eve's DNA. No wonder there are so many imbeciles like you running around.
@fred
You said, "Would that be about the same chance that the Tooth Fairy did it?"
Correct! You're catching on.
LinCA
Thank you ! In which case we both have a chance in hell of getting out of this place alive.
BULLET. As.ex.ual reproduction produces individuals of similar chromosomes unlike se.xu.al where parent and offspring have different chromosomes. Hence ase.xu.ally reproduced animals may reproduce se.xu.ally without the problems of inc.est. Adam and Eve were of the same generation then.
It is for this that Chr.ist had to be born of a Vir.gin. A man reproducing a woman and then a woman reproducing a man. This made him an original like Adam(unise.xu.al)
@fred
You said, "In which case we both have a chance in hell of getting out of this place alive."
While I can't exclude the remote possibility that there is/was such a creature, the odds that he/she/it is anything like the believers think it is are much smaller still.
Oh LinCA aaa! Still spreading ur prejudice around? I think its better u really sit down and ponder what happened on Friday. When I see people like u it makes me think how rational I must be for believing in God. At least I am not on the Atheist Blog or is it that CNN think Atheism is a religion too.
Molecular collision, in my amateur opinion. More plausible than "God made it". That makes about as much sense as saying George Foreman wished life into existence.
@Nii Croffie
You said, "Still spreading ur prejudice around?"
What prejudice? I'm not the one making ridiculous claims and you may want to read RagingLamb's post if you want to see prejudice.
You said, "I think its better u really sit down and ponder what happened on Friday."
You mean when I handed you your ass in our little debate? You had no argument and it was you who ran away and plugged your ears.
You said, "When I see people like u it makes me think how rational I must be for believing in God."
Well, duh. Believers in that nonsense have to keep telling themselves that it is "rational". You've got to be a moron of epic proportions to still believe something if you realize it isn't rational. But I got some news for you. Accepting without questioning these ludicrous claims about gods isn't rational by any stretch of the imagination.
You said, "At least I am not on the Atheist Blog or is it that CNN think Atheism is a religion too."
Just because CNN calls it the belief blog doesn't mean that only believers get to post. Rational people are also welcome.
The Catholic Church – the centre of Christianity has noi problem with evolution and accepts it. Why are the Evangelicals in the USA so up in arms about it? It speaks of a low level of IQ I think. Than again these are the same people who speak of damnation, make up stuff like the rapture and believe in hell, not knowing it refers to a garbage dump outside Jurasalem with the bodies of criminals were disposed by burning them.
LinCA I found a rational atheist after u failed so spectaacularly. His post n mine are on Mark Driscoll's blog. Exclude legal arguements but u cudn't. U were still reposting my replies to confuse yourself. Ur emotional state wudn't allow u to speak without abusing ur audience. Very Clever. SHAME
Mbane r u ok? Have u read de Bible b4? Look dere r enough low IQ atheists to match Evangelicals boot 4 boot. When did Hell become a rubbish dump in Jerusalem? Go n read de Bible! @ least u owe de Evangelicals dat courtesy. As 4 Catholics accepting evolution most Christians do academically not creed.
Nii Croffie, the word hell is never mentioned in the original texts. Hell is a misstranltion of the King James Bible. The word Hell comes from Nors mythology and reffers to Hella – goddess of the underworld. What the Bible refers to is a place called Gehenna. Gehenna was a real place – valley of Hinnon and it was a garbage dump where fires buned everyday in order to incenerate the gargabe. The bodies of criminals and those seen as not worth burrying were dumped there as well and burned. I modern day translation of the bible does not include a single mention of the word hell.
Nii Croffie, Gehenna is used in the new testement as a methaphor for the final place of punishment for those not worthy of going to heaven. It does not refer to a mythical place underground with deamons. Mind you that the "devil" is a fallen angel – the most beautifull of angels and not a red humanoid with horns and a tail. Misconceptions and lack of understanding of the texts are what have led Evangelicals to sounf so ignorant of the faith they practice.
Mbane the origins of a word are not as necessary as the definition of a word. If we use the origin it means we r taking usage of that word to be constant but they never are. Sheol for instance refers to de grave and de underworld. In my tribe dying is referred to as Crossing the river for chiefs.
A clear reference to our ancient Egyptian ancestors practice of burying Pharoahs on the other side of the Nile. U cud infer the Greek Ferryman of the dead but in the long run this is what it means. Other words are Spirit and Ghost as in the Holy Spirit being the modern and Holy Ghost is KJV.
Nii Croffie, the origins of the word Hell are significant here because Hell is part of Nors mythology and as these Nordic tribes expanded and mixed with the populations of western Europe during the dark ages, their culture and influenced mixed with other popular culture as well and gave way to misconceptions. These misconceptions were clearly evident during the 15th century when king James commisioned an English translation of the Bible. Because King James was protestant, the Vatican refused access to the original texts so they had to make do with whatever texts were available in England at the time. Mix that with popular culture and lack of proper tanslators and texts and what you get is a poorlly translated Bible that was mass produced and still in use today.
Apologies for not responding sooner, I wasn't watching this thread. Anyway, I saw a bumper sticker awhile back that seems appropriate here.
Militant Agnostic: I don't know... and YOU DON'T EITHER!
The question you are trying to bait people with is a variation of the 'begging the question' fallacy, in the sense that the question assumes that Evolution speaks to the beginning of all things, which it does not.
MBANE u r making the assumption that the Vatican controlled learning in Europe but it did not. The Universities did n England had Oxford and Cambridge. The Hebrew Bible, Septuagint n Vul.gate were available from ancient times and the Crusades,Turks and Reconquista brought more. Latin was alive too.
Valhalla was not a place of punishment for the Norse and Teutons but a joyous place more like the Muslim concept of paradise. Feel free to enlighten me if there was something other than Valhalla. I will however have to investigate further.
FOSSIL, (Lewis Black)
"As.ex.ual reproduction produces individuals of similar chromosomes unlike se.xu.al where parent and offspring have different chromosomes. Hence ase.xu.ally reproduced animals may reproduce se.xu.ally without the problems of inc.est. Adam and Eve were of the same generation then."
A nice demonstration of total lack of comprehension. If the first male and female were a product of as-xual reproduction, they had the exact same genes (though even this is false because Adam's rib DNA was XY, Eve was XX). Having the exact same genes and then s-xually reproducing is the ultimate incest problem, i.e. absolutely no genetic diversity. Even if one granted Eve was magically genetically distinct from Adam at every available genetic locus, this founder population of 2 would still have "locked in" an incredibly restricted gene pool given drift and fixation. (Of course the convenient explanation is that they outbreed with some other specially created humans from somewhere else who didn't warrant any mention until the incest problem dawned on the authors...).
The closest individuls are monozygotic twins(1or2sperm,1egg). In male, male they are similar genetically in male,female however a mutation occurs to make them genetically different.- Wikipedia on Twins.
I think u have to brush up on English too. I said revelation (knowledge of God) is not limited to the Hebrews not the Book of Revelation or the New Testament.
I did not mean Q but CoCo in post 1.
Drift and fixation are functions of the population. Even in in-bred populations it is not dangerous when the 2nd generation is large. in the Genesis story apart from the firstborn males who are mostly recorded de Bible conveniently mentions many sons n daughters. Adam lived over several generations
Nii Croffie, I call all religions idolatry, these are not YHWH He is 'spiritual of righteousness and peace'truly, and also because it is prophesied by Daniel from Gabriel to help him to understand the vision through YHWH in Daniel 11v 36-12v10, of the anitchrist, and the end times vs.39 is christianity Constantine here, vs. 43 is islam and Dan.2v40 of the 4th kingdom are we not in the 4th kingdom then what else do you think Gabriel is telling Daniel about the end times of people running to and fro when these things will happen, and that is today and since the beginning of the 4th kingdom.. For YHWH does nothing without His prophets or servants in Amos 3v7. And He does not change His Words in Malachi 3v6. The book of remembrance is right in Malachi 3v16 what do you mean? If one can read well they should see this, or maybe one cannot use the carnal eye then read it. No js tried to bring his own religion and its being done so it too is pagan and ruling over many prophesied in Jeremiah 10 as vanities, who is lds?
Nii Croffie, you know you lie so much this is that double talk, christians were into judaism first 3rd kingdom andchristianity is an offshoot from judaism saying amen to egyptian pagan idols their sun gods, and afterlife mummies resurrection comes from this, and christians still say amen and now its to jc not amen rah and amen sirapus and not horus of isis anymore. Stop misleading the flocks. I'm done with you go away liar.
CoCo, I know you and Nii have something going here, but if I may interject. Where do you find that amen in the New Testament is related to the other foreign religions? I don't understand how you get that.
The Greek for word amen means "so be it." So after a prayer to our Father in Heaven the closing of the prayer is "so be it." That's all it means. It's not some statement to another god. Just like Selah means "pause and think about it." You know as others do that Selah is not talking about a foreign god. I can hear some of the other arguments you are making. But these comments seem to distract from your message.
CoCo – I've been reading the back and forth you and Nii have been doing. And I'm not sure either of you are listening to each other as much as you probably hope. But it sounds to me that it is more of a stalemate. You believe the OT is the only Scripture so you voice your support for OT and YHWH as you understand Him. You speak with great passion.
Nii believes in OT and NT. He also has very strong convictions and speaks with great passion. I don't think you win by calling Nii a liar. Instead argue from your position and let him argue from his.
Now, why do you seem so opposed to the NT? Is it something you've been taught? Or where does this come from? Yes, I understand that you are intent against false religions. There are many. But there are quite a few people who accept the OT and NT as one Scripture with a consistent view of YHWH.
RagingLamb ur friend is a former Mormon and is still hung up on their principle of being the only true religion though now he considers them to be false too. It is quite normal as I read from spiritual abuse websites. Anyway I try to separate the insults but sometimes I lose the message in there.
Coco
As I told u b4 the style of interpreting Scripture by verses is prone to error. Comparing verses is better. But even better is the style used by Christ which is to use passages of Scripture rather than verses. I do understand ur fear of religion. I love u as myself no matter what.
Rational LinCA y r u so emotional today? and u still copy replies to beef up yours. Veeery boooring! I found a rational atheist after u failed so spectacularly! check out his post n my response on Mark Driscoll's blog. When asked to exclude legal arguements u were doing exactly that. Shaame!
Your post presupposes dat de Vatican had control of all learning in Europe. Wrong! De Universities were in charge of this from ancient times. England boasted Oxford n Cambridge. De Vulgate, Septuagint n Biblia Hebraica have been in deir hands 4 centuries. De Crusades, Reconquista n Turks gave more.
To all evolutionists: How did it all begin? Please explain it to us Theists.
How did it all begin?
(queue more crickets.... need more crickets to queue)
All you can do is troll. Having fun yet?
You ask us to prove that god didn't cause the beginning of time, how about you prove to us that your god DID do it. And please, as Bishop Spong points out, do NOT use the bible as your proof. I can find many more ancient texts that were actually written down as they occurred before the bible that gives a different history of how life began.
Your bible and story of Jesus was stolen from previous stories...it wasn't even original...how can we take the bible literally when it's not different than that author that Oprah discovered had made stuff up and stolen from other authors..
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
A little like deja vu. I asked this question and it was woeful performances all round. Evolution is a theory formulated from the Law of Variation it shud not be the Apostle's Creed of Atheism. That's just wrong.
Prayer takes people away from actually working on real solutions to their problems.
Prayer wears out your clothes prematurely.
Prayer contributes to global warming through excess CO2 emissions.
Prayer fucks up your knees and your back.
Prayer can cause heart attacks, especially among the elderly.
Prayer reveals how stupid you are to the world.
Prayer exposes your backside to pervert priests.
Prayer prevents you from getting badly needed exercise.
Prayer makes you hoard cats.
Prayer makes you crave the smell of kitty litter and leads you on to harder drugs.
Prayer makes you say stupid shit.
Prayer wastes time.
Nii Croffie, You're being defensive and self conscious, I simply misspelled your name that is all. Sorry for that. And I have not refused to read or learn anything that you have wanted to share on your knowledge of the truth from YHWH for He says He is the Only Savior and Redeemer in Isaiah 49v16 and Isaiah 60v16 and Isaiah 43v3,11 and that No Man can be delivered from out of His hands in Isaiah 43v13. The truth and there is none else according to the Strong One of Israel YHWH. All I've ask is that since you are in a priesthood position is to tell the truth to the flocks and not to mislead them. I only regard the book of remembrance, the OT so this is where I find true validation for it is not changed as YHWH says He changes Not in Malachi 3v6. If this is what He says any reproofing inserting transliterating removing words that were originally there I don't do. For instance christians say we can repent, well in Jeremiah 15v6 YHWH is weary of repenting, this is why in Isaiah 6v9,10 He leaving the hearts fat,ears deaf and eyes blind, for people to sincerely come back to Him to convert wholeheartedly, He's not accepting anything less anymore. People like yourself should be telling this to the flocks the truth the law.
Nii Croffie, I forgot to address your question on christianity, yes I can tell you did not read some of my post, for you would have noticed that I do not do any religions not none they are all pagan and idols of devils Islam Buddism all and Christianity and it is prophesied in Daniel 11v36-12v10 of the anitchrist in vs.39 christianity and vs.43 of islam, that will rule over many,etc... and in Dan.12v4 of the end times also said in Daniel 2v40 of the 4th kingdom, and here we are the 4th kingdom the prophecy is fulfilled. There is not 'many' being ruled in the truth and righteousness for people are running away from YHWH, so what does that tell you?
I want u to learn something. The Church used the OT alone for 3 centuries. We used it without problems. If u r giving different interpretation to the OT are u not doing what LDS n JS did? The Book of Remembrance is not the Hebrew Scriptures. Life after death was a theme established by Moses.
Why do u fight us calling Christianity idol worship. The truth? Salvation by faith with evidence of love is a doctrine of Moses. Moses wrote down de GREATEST COMMANDMENTS not de Church. I have no problem with the OT. The Law is good. Life after death? God said I am(not was) de God of Abraham, etc
Moses wrote that the One true YHWH cud manifest in different ways. A spirit brooding over the sea. The 3 men (YHWH and 2 angels) visited Abraham on their way to So.dom. The man who wrestled Jacob n broke his hipbone. YHWH in full glory showing his back to Moses. Promised Moses will see His image.
The design of the Taberncle is the functional design of the human brain which assumes YHWH's existence. In Genesis n several passages a compound name Elohim is used instead of the simple Eli for YHWH
@CocoDol:
You interpret the kingdoms as being religions, but Daniel was actually talking to the king about his Kingdom, his rule, not a religion. I see the Iron kingdom (one that cannot be broken) as being the one world government. Of course people will be for and against this. A rock, not cut by man will come and break all previous kingdoms (not religions). This will be God's kingdom on earth. This rock may very well be the stone which is referred to as Jesus. Don't let your human mind interpret the bible, let the bible interpret itself.
Who's the next Richard Dawkins out there? Btw... you believers or non-believers for that matter, listen to Mr Dawkins articulate the beginning of all things. Check out the movie "Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed." This is the champion of evolution. You should here him speak for them.
Ok, while we wait on Nominus, step forward you giant among giants. Articulate the beginning of all things from the evolutionist's (so scientific) theory. Anybody... anybody.... (queue the crickets..... )
RagingLamb, I could not find a reply button for your post when you asked me about the word 'amen', as opposed to 'selah'so I hope that you don't mind that I posted the response here. The word 'amen' yes does mean is to be, and it also is 'praise' but what one needs to do is to look up its origin. Then you will see that it comes from the praise of idols from the Egyptian sun gods amen sirapus amen rah, idols. Christianity is an offshoot from Judaism from the 3rd kingdom, and Christianity was not began, but it was legalized (forced) in the 4th kingdom by Constantine in 311ce, and he and the hellenistic jewish roman writers has a deal. This too you can Google, and thus began the NT(not true), the changing of the OT and the removing of many words and the name of the Creator YHWH 6800 times. YHWH does not change anything of His Word and Law in Malachi 3v6. This is To mislead the flocks from the truth of the spirituality, and righteousness and peace of YHWH. The hellenistic jewish writings began in 200bce and YHWH has no religion this is His law for our righteousness, and wholesome living, all in harmony no matter the skin in Duet. 32v45-47. It is our life to live and eat right by to 'prolong' our lives of goodness.. Now Selah does mean pause or weight it by measures, but it is also praise, and its origin is spiritual, and it is in the book of Psalms. I prefer to use it than amen because I know amen is pagan, anything from idols is simply pagan according to YHWH in Deut.32v17. YHWH had Moses to warn the people of their future ways and generations of these idols in the latter days. Mormons are pagan too these are vanities as prophesied in Jeremiah 10 about the gold plates and doctines are all idolatry vanities from foolish brutish religious men says YHWH. An example of a word that was changed in the NT and the OT was the word 'born of a virgin' in the Hebrew text the word virgin is totally different, and the word used in the Hebrew scriptures was 'almah' meaning a married maiden, or married woman, describing these women already either had children or was already taken by a man. So they mislead the flocks with this and to confirm it you can go to Isaiah 7 it says his wife is a virgin too but she had an older son first, then a second son Immanuel was born for a sign to the king Ahaz. Then a third son was born in 9 and his birth meant that the 10 tribes of Jacob would be exiled from Jerusalem for their iniquities and the hell for the Hebrews began after the split of the north and south of Judah. Isaiah sons were the signs of wonder from YHWH in Isaiah 8v1. So Isaiah's wife was not a virgin, she was a married woman, and the writers lied to mislead the flocks.
(reposted)
Apologies for not responding sooner, I wasn't watching this thread. Anyway, I saw a bumper sticker awhile back that seems appropriate here.
Militant Agnostic: I don't know... and YOU DON'T EITHER!
The question you are trying to bait people with is a variation of the 'begging the question' fallacy, in the sense that the question assumes that Evolution speaks to the beginning of all things, which it does not.
CoCo as a descendant of ancient Egyptians I find it very funny that you shud relate the noun Amun to the verb Amen. Amen is a semitic word which is used in Abrahamic languages 'to mean may it be so'. The Hebrews still use it as do the Arabs. Paranoia is eating u up. Have a Coke n relax.
As 2 parrallels b/n religions u can get dem wherever u go. However remember dat dis is cos God never restricted revelation 2 de Hebrews. Josiah was killed by Pharoah Necho 4 refusing 2 believe his prophesy. Elisha anointed Ben Hadad King of Syria. Jethro was not a Hebrew nor was Melchizedek of Salem