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My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions
The Bible presents us with an evolving story, writes John Shelby Spong.
December 29th, 2011
09:10 AM ET

My Take: The 3 biggest biblical misconceptions

Editor’s note: John Shelby Spong, a former Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, is author of "Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World."

By John Shelby Spong, Special to CNN

The Bible is both a reservoir of spiritual insight and a cultural icon to which lip service is still paid in the Western world. Yet when the Bible is talked about in public by both believers and critics, it becomes clear that misconceptions abound.

To me, three misconceptions stand out and serve to make the Bible hard to comprehend.

First, people assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it.

The facts are that Abraham, the biblically acknowledged founding father of the Jewish people, whose story forms the earliest content of the Bible, died about 900 years before the first story of Abraham was written in the Old Testament.

Actually, that's not in the Bible

Can a defining tribal narrative that is passed on orally for 45 generations ever be regarded as history, at least as history is understood today?

Moses, the religious genius who put his stamp on the religion of the Old Testament more powerfully than any other figure, died about 300 years before the first story of Moses entered the written form we call Holy Scripture.

This means that everything we know about Moses in the Bible had to have passed orally through about 15 generations before achieving written form. Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by?

My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?

Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 A.D., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write.

Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written - that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John - we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100.

For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative.

In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side.

Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all.

My Take: Yes, the Bible really condemns homosexuality

Instead, it’s an interpretive account designed to conform the story of Jesus’ death to the messianic yearnings of the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.

The Bible interprets life from its particular perspective; it does not record in a factual way the human journey through history.

The second major misconception comes from the distorting claim that the Bible is in any literal sense “the word of God.” Only someone who has never read the Bible could make such a claim. The Bible portrays God as hating the Egyptians, stopping the sun in the sky to allow more daylight to enable Joshua to kill more Amorites and ordering King Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites.

Can these acts of immorality ever be called “the word of God”? The book of Psalms promises happiness to the defeated and exiled Jews only when they can dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks! Is this “the word of God? What kind of God would that be?

The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods, for those who commit adultery, for homosexual persons and for any man who has sex with his mother-in-law, just to name a few.

The Bible exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters and wives to be obedient to their husbands. Over the centuries, texts like these, taken from the Bible and interpreted literally, have been used as powerful and evil weapons to support killing prejudices and to justify the cruelest kind of inhumanity.

The third major misconception is that biblical truth is somehow static and thus unchanging. Instead, the Bible presents us with an evolutionary story, and in those evolving patterns, the permanent value of the Bible is ultimately revealed.

It was a long road for human beings and human values to travel between the tribal deity found in the book of Exodus, who orders the death of the firstborn male in every Egyptian household on the night of the Passover, until we reach an understanding of God who commands us to love our enemies.

The transition moments on this journey can be studied easily. It was the prophet named Hosea, writing in the eighth century B.C., who changed God’s name to love. It was the prophet named Amos who changed God’s name to justice. It was the prophet we call Jonah who taught us that the love of God is not bounded by the limits of our own ability to love.

It was the prophet Micah who understood that beautiful religious rituals and even lavish sacrifices were not the things that worship requires, but rather “to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.” It was the prophet we call Malachi, writing in the fifth century B.C., who finally saw God as a universal experience, transcending all national and tribal boundaries.

One has only to look at Christian history to see why these misconceptions are dangerous. They have fed religious persecution and religious wars. They have fueled racism, anti-female biases, anti-Semitism and homophobia.They have fought against science and the explosion of knowledge.

The ultimate meaning of the Bible escapes human limits and calls us to a recognition that every life is holy, every life is loved, and every life is called to be all that that life is capable of being. The Bible is, thus, not about religion at all but about becoming deeply and fully human. It issues the invitation to live fully, to love wastefully and to have the courage to be our most complete selves.

That is why I treasure this book and why I struggle to reclaim its essential message for our increasingly non-religious world.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John Shelby Spong.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Bible • Christianity • Opinion

soundoff (6,068 Responses)
  1. Joe Blows

    This guy is an idiot...

    February 25, 2012 at 12:23 am |
  2. J

    The Bible was used as an argument for slavery, for racial discrimination, against women's civil rights, and even interracial marriage (17 states outlawed it).

    Now it is being used as an argument against women's rights over their own body, and against gay marriage.

    When are people going to realize that the Bible is a terrible argument for anything.

    I'm all for religious freedom, but not when your freedoms infringe on the freedoms of others. Then it becomes "Freedom to force your beliefs on others". You get your Freedom of Religion, as long as I get my Freedom from religion.

    February 24, 2012 at 11:44 pm |
  3. Lorraine

    GodPot, As I said I am not a christian, and so I do not think that there is someone named jesus, I know that this is a belief, and a myth, and in all of the scriptures that they the christians have told to us are jesus such as Isaiah 49,53,9, and Zechariah 9, these are of the seed of David which shows in the truth the so called OT, the book of remembrance, that he was born a child in Bethleham, and was chosen by the prophet Samuel to serve YHWH the truth in 1Samuel 16,17. After proving to YHWH that he was a faithful servant, YHWH has chosen his seed to shepard over the flocks this is the future in Jermiah 23v1-8, and will be a man of YHWH to guide us along with his Branch, other chosen faithful son of men, high priest, and the Arm of YHWH is what is prophesied, and also in Jeremiah 33v14-26, of having a prolonged good, and righteous life for generations, and ever more for all through our seeds, (children) this is real life. And to do this we need to follow the law to eat right, and live right the 10 commandments, which only ask us to do right, and the sabbath, a day of rest, and no it is not to be considered to go to the extreme, I mean if someone is dying, or hurt, or need help, you leave, and go to the er, lol, people used to be simple then, but it was truly the misleading of the priest then, as they are now today, and the passover once a year a time to honor the freedom of the coming out of Eygypt, and to remember those who died innocently that evening when the captives were freed. This is not religion just the actual occurrences of the times to remember, and these are done with your family together privately. And no you can't keep doing wrong, and blame someone else for it, or think you can just ask for forgiveness to YHWH over and over, everyone has to be responsible for their own righteousness, as said in Ezekiel 14v14. Do what is right. But no one is perfect, we do pray to better ourselves as well, but are strict on not getting oneself into those situations in the first place, and being moderate is good in what you do. But we are strict on what we eat it must be wholesome, and clean and live clean. We can go to a gathering of entertainment as long as its wholesome, and artistic, and good music, I like jazz myself, and other good things to do. Yes these scriptures and more are all the seed of David the righteous one prophesied for the future, with the Branch, and most of them even read seed of David or the servant or the elect of YHWH so I have no idea why the christians say jesus, and him nor his story is prophesied in the OT. It does not say jesus it says David, or the seed of David, from out of the root of his father Jessie, so go figure? The future covenant is in Jeremiah 31v31-40, of the new kingdom of life this is a future prophecy to come from YHWH, and the seed of David and the Branch shall all be called YHWH Our Righteousness as prophesied in Jeremiah 23v5-8, so I do not know why christians are thinking about jesus in this case for the only son that YHWH ever speaks of is in Exodus 4v22,23 of the chosen people Israel from which the seed of David of the covenant will be raised, taught and to serve YHWH. Until, this all takes place we who do the law the truth live righteously, and are responsible for doing right in life, and by others. One thing for sure we are all the children of the most High YHWH God.

    February 24, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • GodPot

      Born Jewish or converted?

      February 24, 2012 at 11:40 pm |
    • Lorraine

      GodPot, Now here comes the tricky part, I am not into judasim either, this is idolatry they do the star of David, and Hanuka, well these are not in the OT, these were man made beliefs, pagan really, also, jew is not what the chosen were called in the day of Moses they were Hebrew Israelis, and this is what I am a descendant of the Hebrews of our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and in Exodus 5v1,3 YHWH is called the God(The Strong One) of the Hebrews Israel, and if you notice in the book of Exodus the term Hebrews is used often, but then later in the writings, and other books this turns into Jews, which makes this term Jew a transliteration, and is why YHWH taught us to not even trust this guide the book in Micah 7, sometimes it has to be discerned. The hidden history of the Hebrews is the conspiracy in Isaiah 34v8 of YHWH, and if we went into captivity in 586BCE, of Ezra, Daniel, Zerrubabel, look it up, its history, and then how did we later become Jews, the J was not even in existence until the 1500s, such misleading of the flocks, lies. Creepy huh, but the truth is what I am in, and I know from the Creator YHWH who we are, and it is not jews they are not from the tribe of Jacob, they are from Edom tribe descent, and are not the chosen people. But anyhow this is all to be brought to the light soon, oh this too is a future prophecy. I know weird. It is not a religion it is spirituality of the truth and righteousness. And it will all be called YHWH(Lord) Our Righteousness as stated in Jeremiah 23v5-8 another future prophecy.I ts a long story, and one has to start in Genesis – Malachi and discern to know what the truth is.

      February 25, 2012 at 12:35 am |
  4. Lorraine

    GodPot, You know, its unfortunate that you had to find YHWH this way the wrong way of a hypocritical example, and I am not saying I feel sorry either because yes, you took yourself out of that cloud of doom, from when you were a child. I am not criticizing education, but there is some need for discern of how there is an in difference in how education is taught from one child to the next depending on their race, poverty levels, environments, and so on, you must know that there is a big difference. And, that there are many non-truths taught for the sake of control from the dominant ones in the business and education world for control. Its good to have book sense, and have learned to do things professionally of course it is, but its even better to use the sense of awareness of this world, and its greed, and restraints, and injustices, violence, against certain ones in it the world too, because of hate for no reasons at all, just because others are different in some way or form. But, I never talked down to education, this is something you accused me of out of nowhere, I did not do this at all for knowledge is freedom especially in our society today, its almost all we got, and is what is sad in my opinion, not everyone has to go to school to have something great to offer others in life, and even then education still may not work depending on who you are. There are many who are highly educated but are turned down because of what they look like, or what they do not have, or stereotyping, or who they do not know almost everyday, in difference. All I am voicing is the right, and the wrong of things in this world, and the only way to get this to work better for people is to do righteousness, peace, and no hate, and no indifference, and greed, these among many wrongs is what keeps this world in the mayhem, can you keep your door unlock over night, no one can anymore, it is obvious that there is a problem today,you can't hardly walk the streets in the day, and its on everyones part that righteousness must be done. You did seem bitter, and now I can see why, but not everyone is like that about doing what is right faking, and lying about it, in other words, many people are truly genuine about being good people. One must learn to trust again sometimes. As I said in the last post its not your fault, and its ok. Yes I am a mother, who sent children to get educated, and they are doing fine from it, and I'm grateful, but I think of many others who are not so fortunate, and for no good reason at all. I think many atheist have had some bad experience when it comes to religions, and such, not all, but many. I actually enjoy their comments it helps to have an objective opinion. No hard feelings I hope the best for you.

    February 24, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
    • Lorraine

      GodPot, None of what you have described is of what I advocate, I am about righteousness, truth, peace, and love for all no matter the skin or what they know better, just the spirituality of us all to come together as one and the nature that YHWH gave us. No, I do not think that resurrection is our option, but a prolonged good life is, and I am not a christian.. I am a child and so are you of the most high of YHWH the Creator of our life. I only read the book of remembrance given to us, and named in Malachi 3v16, by YHWH, from Genesis – Malachi the truth.

      February 24, 2012 at 9:31 pm |
    • GodPot

      I admit, I was bitter, but I let go of that and am happier than I have ever been, but it does come back when i'm debating some of these old issues with people that seem to want to look at anyone who doesn't believe the way they do with pity or scorn. Atheists should not be pitied, they should be seen as what they are, non-conformists. 90% of the world belongs to some organize religious group, and another 5% believe in some form of deity. It takes a strong person to go against the tide and require more proof of something than "Everybody else is doing it" to base an understanding of the universe around us. And yet, from any objective point of view that is the only way to true enlightenment, not by accepting everything people tell you is true but testing, verifying and asking more questions instead of giving pat answers.

      February 24, 2012 at 9:36 pm |
    • GodPot

      Oh, and yes, I guess I was a bit harsh in some of my earlier posts, guess I had the bitter-amp cranked up to 11, so I apologize if I offended you. I really couldn't want a better life than I have now living in a beautiful beach town with a beautiful wife and 2 year old daughter and the weather is always nice and temperate, so, really no complaints. It's only when I check in on CNN and see more Christian candidates trying to out zealot each other for the religious rights vote and make vile promises of forcing more religious moral laws on the nation that I get that bitter taste in my mouth.

      February 24, 2012 at 9:50 pm |
    • Paul

      @Lorraine
      May I ask what religion you are if not Christian and yet believe in YHWH Jehovah?

      February 24, 2012 at 11:22 pm |
  5. Paul

    I am puzzled as to why you Atheists want to comment on a religious blog?

    Is it that you feel something is missing in your life and some how need to vent your frustration with your own life of no answers to the meaning of life or future, that you have to tear down what others believe to make you feel better?

    You offer no solutions, no meaning in life and no real answers to everyday problems. Your best answer is "we don't know, we are still looking".

    On the other hand, I have seen through a study of the Bible people change to better husbands/wives, better children, better employees. I see real evidence in peoples lives that the Bibles counsel really works.
    Sure some religions are nuts, but that does not mean the Bible is wrong. All it means is there are some bad people out there who use the Bible for there own purposes. Just as science is used for bad things too, like atom bombs, flame throwers, mines and other evil things, but that does not mean that science in itself is wrong, just the people who abuse it.

    Just as there is a true science, there is also a true religion. You just have to find it.

    February 24, 2012 at 8:19 pm |
    • GodPot

      "I see real evidence in peoples lives that the Bibles counsel really works." Good advice is good advice, and history is full of books with good advice. Love your neighbor as yourself, great advice. Do not murder, do not steal, all great advice. If Christians just concentrated on the bibles moral message we would all get along. It's when Christians push their religion onto others and push for Armageddon where they think they can get rid of anyone they disagree with that atheists stand up and say "Excuse me!! You have not proven your God exists so please stop trying to tell me how evil I am when apparently my only 'sin' is not bowing down to your deity."

      Why can we not separate the good morality lessons from the apocalyptic doom and gloom that everyone fears but has only produced doom and gloom, wars and death in the zealots attempt to be the winners of some ancient prophecy. We know Christianity would not be as wide spread as it is if it had not been forced on large populations of "native barbarians" at the point of a sword. I'm sure very few atheists would bother to complain if Christians actually followed their Christs example and turned the other cheek and healed the soldiers ear that Peter cut off. These are not the actions of an arogant upper class of human that Christians seem to think they are, the new "Chosen People" who get all the spoils after everyone they don't like is whisked away to eternal torture. "Forgive them father, they know not what they do" if the Christ of your bible lived and said those words I do not doubt it was not only for the soldiers piercing his side and selling his clothes, but for his violent followers who are followers in name only. I have no doubt the Christ of the bible would vomit if he saw what had been done in his name in the last 2000 years.

      February 24, 2012 at 9:22 pm |
    • Paul

      @GodPot
      Good to see we agree on something. Yes good advice in the Bible, and advice that is timeless too.
      I have not said anything about how evil you are or not. I don’t even know you and even if I did on a personal level, it is not for me to judge. As a free moral agent you may choose whatever course you wish. That is everyone’s right.
      And you are quite right Jesus is disgusted with religion today and what they have done in his name. Rest assured he will do something about that. This is also mentioned in the Bible. But be careful not to judge all religion on the 99% of rotten ones.
      Try and see something from a Christian point of view though. If I truly believed that a tidal wave was going to come and wipe you and your family out, I would feel a moral obligation to at least warn you, not force but at the very least warn. That’s what we are doing. You can accept that or not, your choice of course. No one is going to force you to accept a God. You probably will have one of our people call on your door, they mean no harm, but only to extend an invitation. You can choose to listen or simply and politely say you’re not interested. There is no need to get all anti and bristle up, we are only doing what you would do if you believed the same. True Christians mean no disrespect to anyone but only wish the best for them.

      February 24, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
  6. GodPot

    Christianity is like living in the "It's a small world" ride at Disneyland. The rhetoric is great...

    it's a world of laughter, a world or tears
    its a world of hopes, its a world of fear
    theres so much that we share
    that its time we're aware
    its a small world after all

    its a small world after all
    its a small world after all
    its a small world after all
    its a small, small world

    There is just one moon and one golden sun
    And a smile means friendship to everyone.
    Though the mountains divide
    And the oceans are wide
    It's a small small world

    But after a few minutes the song starts to drive you insane so all that is left of you is a plastic faced doll mechanicly waving at the next batch of converts...

    February 24, 2012 at 7:17 pm |
    • Lorraine

      GodPot, you are prideful, egotistical, and arrogant, and do not leave out spoiled rotten. Was the word no ever in your life? This is how you seem to be I could be wrong. But, I am not trying to be rude, its not even your own fault if this is the case, for when many people have lives that have many options or privileges this is how they usually think, very selfish, and not humble nor compassionate at all. Even if some people may have had a hard childhood but then their life changes, and they get exposed to a very much better life, and existence they too forget or chooses to forget, and behave this way spoiled, and stubborn. And talk like a child when things get a little too true for them, but its ok. How would you even know about it anyway? That is what being sheltered does to most people.

      February 24, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • GodPot

      " prideful, egotistical, and arrogant, and do not leave out spoiled rotten."

      Yeah, i'm the one saying that I know exactly how everything happened, God did it, and I have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe and I have an immortal soul that will live on for eternity in paradise and anyone who doesn't believe just like me will burn for eternity in heIIfire... Right, I'm the arrogant one... Christians have been spoiled rotten since their inception and the rotted fetus of your faith has begun to stink.

      February 24, 2012 at 8:29 pm |
  7. kenny

    Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a
    fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time.
    Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the
    explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the
    practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing 'Does Not!'
    There are none more ignorant and useless,
    than they that seek answers on their knees,
    with their eyes closed.

    February 24, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • Lorraine

      kenny, this is good analysis, but where does the fossil originate from, its host right? then where does the host come from, procreation right?, then from there cells, atoms, and molecules, and enzymes, and where does it come from before that? Did it come from a certain kind of living organism, and if so which one? And what did it all evolve from? What was its orign form? To the point where did it start from up untill now days. In other words what started this whole blueprint of man? This sort of reminds me of that movie Altered State. Remember he too was curious and he almost ended up unborn or non-existent. Just particles floating around in space, and then did it all pull itself together, and make one big bang that over time made a form of skin or organs, but from whose womb? Oh no, now I have to start all over. Hey atheist this is quite fun. If this is not how it all began, many people behave as if they were from some sort of alien microbs with no natural affection for life, or each other. So this big bang maybe true. I have given facts to the proof of the matching of the history of YHWH in the book of remembrance, the so called OT to dates of events that happened in the past yet the stubborn blindness is blocking their sight. Stuck on pride, and haughtiness, behaving like again alien microbs, no emotion. But, the historical facts are overlooked from many having so much pride, that they cannot open neither their hearts nor their minds, and cannot see, their knowledge has deceived them. Isaiah 6v8,9,10. It states that Hebrews went into captivity in 586BCE, Daniel, Ezra, Jeremiah, and Zerrubabel known as the Messiah, and Prince, then of Judah, along with Abednigo, Shadrach, Meshael (slave names of Daniels companions), and this was the time of Cyrus the Great (history), the king of Persia, of the defeat of the time of king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon who had taken the slaves into exile is of our history, look it up, but they are blind to this truth and proof. I think because these captives were Hebrews Israelis the true Israel of the covenant of YHWH with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, many are unwilling to tell this truth, again in difference, they want to skip over this time, and go straight to the time of the jewish revolt of 135BCE, and mentioning the temple of 70AD, knowing that the Solomon temple was built first and trying to avoid the origin of all of our historical truth, calling Hebrews at this time Jews. LoL. This is all that this is. But many were taught wrong by our educational systems as well to keep us in the dark as well. This is so sad to rather live by lies than the reality of the truth of history and facts.

      February 24, 2012 at 8:03 pm |
  8. Lorraine

    GodPot, you call it intelligence, maybe, or is it the contol of the minds of the other masses, asided from religion?

    February 24, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • Lorraine

      GodPot, Oh, I forgot, mormon are fake, just ask Jeremiah 10, they are also part of the control of the masses in religions, for all religions are idolatry and fake. People, need to all be together in this life not divided. Connected along with the wonders all around us of nature that YHWH gave to us, and care about each other wholeheartedly not fake,no matter the skin or what we know, for R E A L. We have only one life here together and its sad that we can't all be as one, and it should be redeemed as precious in our societies, each and every day togetherness, love.

      February 24, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
    • GodPot

      "contol of the minds of the other masses, asided from religion?" Which "other masses" are you refering to, do you mean the 10% of the world that does not profess belief in one of the main organized religions?

      February 24, 2012 at 7:33 pm |
    • GodPot

      "We have only one life here together and its sad that we can't all be as one" The simple answer is because your religion requires everyone else to discard their long held belief systems and say " I was wrong to doubt you Jesus, we are wicked and can do nothing without you, now I know why i made bad choices in my life which wasn't my fault, but the machinations of the devil. And since i'm still a sinful human and can just throw my sin's on the lord since I am too weak to fight these urges to fornicate on my own, so if I falter later by driving to Lorraines house and slipping in her back door, I know you will forgive me for it was not me but the evil Satan that made me do it...amen"

      Yeah, what a wonderful world it would be, where no one has to take responsibility for their actions until they die, so there is always hope to fornicate, discriminate, murder, lie, cheat and steal and then pray for forgiveness and the Lord will say "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do..."

      Sorry, I'll pass. I would rather take responsibility for my own actions thank you very much. I had been drinking two bottles of wine a day for a few years then thought to myself "This is not moderation, I should stop" and so I did. No praying, no throwing my burden on God, heII, I didn't even tell my wife, I just stopped drinking and she noticed about a week in. Now it's been a year, and I still don't drink because I like how I feel. In the words of a wise old master "Do or do not, there is no try." Christians are always "trying" very hard to be good people, I know that. But I think it may be like something I read once in a self help diet book many years ago, that if you are constantly worrying about your weight and counting calories and thinking about food every minute, you are not going to lose weight, you will gain weight. Why? Because you can't think of anything but food so your brain tricks you and convinces you this bite will be okay, or that donut won't hurt if I run for 15 minutes later. Christians are constantly thinking about sin, adultery, lying, cheating, all the things they shouldn't do, but then they always know in the back of their mind "hey, one extra little flirt won't hurt and maybe if I get drunk enough and wind up back at this guys house it won't be my fault, I can blame it on Satan and the alchohol and then go to confession this weekend.. Whoo Hooo, friday night!! Party!!"

      February 24, 2012 at 7:53 pm |
  9. Lorraine

    GodPot, Well, maybe you can date back as far as 2006, when Israel was throwing cluster bombs on Lebanon, trying to erase anything they could, and now they are rebuilding yeah, right. Look it up, professor atheist it happened ok. Why they did it is beyond sensless, alright wicked. But, its obvious why, and if you have any common knowledge of the truth you'll know why. Let your education keep you in the dark, its fine to have education, but one must use their own minds at some point. I look for more plus some. This America was ruled by the dominant, and do you really think they are going to tell anyone the truth, that is why they call it dominate, they run the school systems too, lol.

    February 24, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
    • GodPot

      "2006, when Israel was throwing cluster bombs on Lebanon, trying to erase anything they could, and now they are rebuilding yeah, right. Look it up, professor atheist it happened ok." I keep trying to resit feeding you, you must be a very fat and naughty troll, but I can't help it, your comments are just too insane and I think you just might just be serious.

      I'll let you in on a little secret, I have read the bible cover to cover more than three times and was a Christian minister for over 10 years. I have heard (and even used to repeat) just about every Christian conspiracy theory as to why the "liberal government" is attacking Gods people and how Satan must have planted the fossil record to cast doubt on truth and how carbon dating must be fake or 99% inaccurate, all because I was raised in a Christian house with a minister father and his word was law. I believed it, much like you did i'm sure, with absolutely NO proof other than being read a scripture that was presented to me as fact. And I did not doubt, infact, doubting or reading science magazines were strictly forbbiden and considered the work of the devil. Then I both grew up and grew a pair. I realized my father was not the infallible right hand of God he had presented himself as but a lying, cheating, womanizing hypocrite who had been saying one thing while doing another (not uncommon among Christians) my whole life. So I opened my eyes and started doing actual research, reading everything and anything I could to look for answers to the questions I was never given any better reply to than "Well God is a mystery" or "God works in mysterious ways" or "God allows terrible things to happen to good people to help us understand our need for him". Well, since leaving the Church I have met more real people then I had ever known existed. The Church forces everyone to wear the same fake f u g g i n g smile on their faces as they proclaim "Jesus is my lord!" and then head back to their trailer to beat their wife and drink some more beer. It disgusts me and every time I hear a smug brainless idiot like yourself make comments that denigrate people (proffesor atheist) who actually took the time to LEARN about something instead of taking your pastors podium p i s s for truth. It sounds more like the dumb school bully picking on the smart kid for getting an A on the test as if it's something to be ashamed of "stupid smarty pants loser, thinks he's smarter than us". Yeah, I do think i'm smarter than you Lorraine, because I actually took the time to learn something. And it sounds like you're a stay at home mom, so maybe you should head back to school yourself instead of announcing to the world that your age is higher than your IQ.

      February 24, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
  10. Lorraine

    GodPot, Momya, I did not say that the ones in Israel are not claiming to be the chosen to the land, that's right they are 'claiming' to be the ones who wondered in the wilderness for 40yrs, and so on, you are saying, twisting this, and if the fighting between Palestinians, and Israel, is not controversy as in Isaiah 34v8, prophsied not enough for you, then I guess atheist are very mean people, lol. War is ugly, ok, and according to Ezekiel 36v1-5, they are not the chosen, 'claiming' is right, and momya, no tell me more about logic. And its possible that Rhino horn does work for some, all people are not the same when it comes to taking medicines.

    February 24, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
  11. Lorraine

    Bizzare, are you sure, and I never said that the Hebrews were so special, they had a responsibility to uphold for the other nations that's all, and they did not fulfill it by YHWH the Creator of all nations, and was certainly punished for it until this day in Deut.30, of the curses after the blessing from being disobediant. Does the scripture Deut.28v15-68, even strike you as a true happening at all?, for it was the slave ships that took the Hebrews later, Psalms 137 along the Nile, and the Egypt river, and Euphrates, just where Abraham was given the covenant of YHWH, and until the 1400s-1500s the Atlantic Slave Trade, brought from West Africa as prophesied in Genesis 15v12-16, that the seeds of Abraham will go into affliction more than once for their iniquities against YHWH, for doing wrong, and idols, just like many are doing in religions today, and not to know who they are anymore to serve other nations, so what are you complaining about? Then are you telling me that there were no such persons as David, and Solomon in Judah, Jerusalem in history? And in Genesis 9v13, about the rainbow in the sky, was this just planted into the book recently or something? So look it up, and connect the dots of slavery, the Hebrews were not talked about anymore after 161BCE for they were in captivity as most darker people are all over this world, what planet are you on? And until they, and all other nations come back to YHWH, and His righteousness, and peace of the law, the suffering of this world will continue unless we do so, Malachi 3v7. This is the 'righteousness' of our lives to live, and eat, and work, right by as said by Moses in Deut.32v45-47 for all nations not just Hebrews.

    February 24, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
  12. Lorraine

    GodPot, Well, what do you want from me? look it up, its in the news. Isn't it true that over in Israel there is a controversy about the land in Israel, and who are the true Israel chosen with the Palestinians, and in the UN? What other proofs do you need? Its in the international news. And I suppose by chance the scripture in Isaiah 34v8, said by the Creator YHWH just happens to agree with this issue over in Zion, Israel, and in Gaza at hand.

    February 24, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
    • momoya

      Holey moley!! You think that that is proof of your god?!?! You have no idea how logic works, do you?

      February 24, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • GodPot

      " Isn't it true that over in Israel there is a controversy about the land in Israel, and who are the true Israel chosen with the Palestinians, and in the UN? What other proofs do you need?" You are kidding right? You consider the "fact" that Israel claims their "God" promised some other nations lands to them while they were wandering the desert, of which the Israelis are now claiming "divine" right to as "proof" of their claim? So I suppose you also accept the Mormon ideology that Joseph Smith was a new prophet and that Jesus came to the America's to preach to the natives after leaving the middle east on a cloud, I mean, it's written right there in the book of Mormon, so it must be true, right? So does this mean I can write a book and claim to be a prophet and claim all property rights of North America have been promised to me and my descendants by God, so... you might want to start packing...

      February 24, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • GodPot

      Also, here is an example of a commonly held belief for billions of people for hundreds of years, that should make it fact right?

      "In Traditional Chinese Medicine the horn is shaved or ground into a powder and dissolved in boiling water. According to the 16th century Chinese pharmacist Li Shi Chen, the horn is used to treat fever, rheumatism, gout, and other disorders. It could also cure snakebites, hallucinations, typhoid, headaches, carbuncles, vomiting, food poisoning, and “devil possession.”
      But, does it work?
      No.
      Both Hoffman-LaRoche (in 1983), the Chinese University of Hong Kong (in 1990) and the Zoological Society of London (in 2008) conducted tests of the medicinal properties of rhino horn. They all arrived at the same conclusion: rhino horn is of no use to anyone except the original owner." worldpress

      Regardless of the science and studies done, there are still many people who would claim Rhino horn worked for them, but this still does not make it true as studies on placebos often show how the power of our mind and body can effect the outcomes or at least our perception of the outcome.

      Faith & Fact are two very different things, and if you cannot understand that, then I'm not sure why I bother correcting you.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • Bizarre

      Lorraine,

      It is incredible that you accept that group of blatantly ethnocentric stories, concocted to rally the ancient Middle Eastern Hebrews around the motto, "We're Numbah One"!... "...and, oh-so-special-us, we have an imaginary, invisible super-being on our side"! "Go, team, go"! "Prevail"!

      There is not a shred of verified evidence for any of the supernatural beings or events told about in the Bible.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • Lorraine

      GodPot, And furthermore, yes I can prove that there is no such thing as the Middle East, the Suez Canal was put there trying to hide what is really Lebanon which is now being said to be Eden, yes the Garden of Eden, because there is really no such thing as the Middle East, this was only to delude us from the truth as most of what they do in the educational system in America's history or in America period. So, the reality is that we must discern the educational system just as much as the book of remembrance, the so call OT, and definitely over in that NT, as well today. For instance like Alexander the Great, they taught in the schools that he died of a fever, but in reality he was poisoned by Ptolemy l Soter who was known to had wanted to be Alexander, some friend he was, oh, right a poisoned river, rightttt, lol. This Middle Earth, now this sounds like a fable, I am not into harry potter, or the lord of rings, but my teenagers are. Mr. know it all pants, lol.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
    • GodPot

      "because there is really no such thing as the Middle East, this was only to delude us from the truth as most of what they do in the educational system in America's history or in America period."

      It's almost hard to respond to your statements, because I cannot decide if you are serious or just trolling for reply's.

      "So, the reality is that we must discern the educational system just as much as the book of remembrance, the so call OT, and definitely over in that NT, as well today." So why even study the universe around us and dig up archaeological artifacts when Lorraine already knows it all? Why did I spend so much money on those textbooks in college if they just gave me details contrary to "the book of remembrance" which obvious don't matter and must be lies?

      Would you like your doctorate or some other degrees mailed to you or do you want to just start using "Dr. Lorraine" as your tag line since you obviously know more about science, world history and archaeology than any of those phony Professors who have spent their lives researching those subjects, since your depth of knowledge, er, well, um, your conviction with which you say you have proof is just so very strong it must be true. Oh, you wouldn't happen to know if there really was another gunman on the grassy knoll would you? Or did they ever find those guys who fakes the moon landing?

      February 24, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
    • GodPot

      Here's the deal Lorraine, if you would stop insulting research, intelligence and logic with unfounded, unproven and unverified statements, I will stop insulting your lack of intelligence.

      February 24, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
  13. mickey

    GOD: God is the Creator of the universe in all its dimensions and the source of Knowledge in all sentient beings.
    God has sent a New Revelation, a Teaching and a Pathway to rekindle humanity’s relationship with the Creator as we face living in a declining world. The New Message comes with the Will and Power of God to unite the world’s religions, to end our ceaseless conflicts and to call forth the greater gifts that each person has brought into the world. The New Message is the largest Revelation of its kind ever to be given to humanity.
    We stand at the threshold of Great Waves of environmental, economic and political upheaval and change which will alter the face of Earth. Humanity must unite to prevent collapse from within and subjugation from without.
    Each of us has been sent into the world for a greater purpose, waiting to be discovered. This greater purpose resides beyond the realm and the reach of the intellect, in Knowledge that lives deep within us.
    KNOWLEDGE: Knowledge is the core reality within us, a deeper mind beyond the intellect, and is our direct connection to God. Knowledge represents the part of us that has never left God. Instinct and Intuition are at the surface of Inner Knowledge.
    We live in a Greater Community of intelligent life in the universe for which humanity must prepare.
    We live in both a mental and physical environment. The mental environment contains forces that affect our thinking and emotions and that can dominate us until we become strong with Knowledge.

    http://newmessage.org

    February 24, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • jimtanker

      These are all assertions for which you have NO evidence of.

      February 24, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • plot

      mickey,

      Serious question – why is it so important for you to have a god exactly like yourself? Suppose there is a god. Why does he seek YOUR vengeance? Why is he jealous just like a human? Why do you demand your god design the universe just like a human would?

      I mean really. If you have to narrow your focus to a god who looks, sounds, emotes and demands exactly as a human would, that's a pretty narrow focus for interpreting all creation.

      February 24, 2012 at 1:42 pm |
    • GodPot

      Definition of KNOWLEDGE: 1 obsolete : cognizance. 2a (1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or a s s ociation (2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique. b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something (2) : the range of one's information or understanding 'answered to the best of my knowledge'

      It's great that you can make up your own definitions for words, but I prefer to use the definition that non-morons prefer, you know, the accurate one.

      Here's some words I have created new definitions for you to have fun with:

      Faith – The understanding that you hold a belief in something that you know to be false but you want to believe it so strongly you lie to yourself in order to get what you want, which is to feel important and purposeful when in reallity you are just a little mouse, mickey...

      God – The mental state of denial when you will not accept "We just don't know" as an answer and must invent an answer than almost always includes perks and benefits for yourself, like immortality or others peoples money you have convinced them to hand over in order to save their invented souls from your torturous murdering invented mental state, God...

      February 24, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Mickey, I like what you're saying very, very, much, it is absolutely true, knowledge is power, and the key to freedom. My cousin is a millionaire, and he never went to school at all, he was too poor, poverty stricken, and today he is only 41, and retired at 35. See , knowledge is good, he's a financial planner of rich folk kind of dude. I watch these kind. lol, just kidding. Many rich are nice people too.

      February 24, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
  14. Lorraine

    Atheist, Oh how I adore them, they have so much of the facts to do, and have to see what they know up front. I do enjoy how they use their free will to a most high ground level, this is good. It is also a great source to follow on for truth. What they say, and what is in this video is absolutely true, and this is the beauty of it being an atheist, they want hard facts, TRUTH, no messing around. There is a place in this world for all atheists and YHWH knew exactly where He wanted them to be placed, right on the sites of christians, and the believers of the divinities of the heavens. We actually need atheist, they help us to stay grounded, and focused, on how serious it is to know the truth, and to do it to make clear examples of the right things, and living right in life. They are almost perfect except for one ingredient the compassion, and the love of the existence of life of the son of man who is only flesh and blood, and are made to err, and then to try again to get it right, and the best guide for this is the law of the Heavenly Creator YHWH, the righteousness, and peace that we all so desparately need instead of the bickering, and trying to make sense of it all, for as YHWH says in Isaiah 40v28-31, no one no science, could ever make out the real understanding of the Almighty YHWH. Science is a good start, thanks to all of the atheist being given this talent to give names to some reasons why things are come to be but, is it the true origin of it all?, yet that is what keeps us curious right? Whether its evolution or design, both are estimates and no one can ever precisely pin point it all out, not from its beginning nor to its end, no one walking on this earth. For there is a higher design, and in Deut.4 it was told to us from the very beginning that do not even try to figure out anything of the heavens, or make any image or liking of it for it is beyond our way of ever totally understanding it.

    February 24, 2012 at 5:11 am |
    • GodPot

      "Whether its evolution or design, both are estimates and no one can ever precisely pin point it all out, not from its beginning nor to its end, no one walking on this earth. For there is a higher design," You just admitted "whether it's evolution or design" "no one can ever precisely pin point it all out" followed immediately by "For there IS a higher designer". So you are basicly saying "Evolution or creation, we just don't have enough data to make a factual, truthful assesment, but it was definately creation."

      Like I can say "Lorraine, ignorant hermaphrodite child abuser or logical thinking human? I just don't have all the facts before me to make that assesment, but she is definately an ignorant hermaphrodite child abuser."

      February 24, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • GodPot

      Here's some cut & paste from responses to "Believer" that might help you understand what the issues are.

      So here are the creationists two biggest misconceptions: 1. They DO NOT understand the difference between scientific theory & philosophical theory.

      "A scientific theory is a deductive theory, in that its content is based on some formal system of logic and on basic axioms. In a deductive theory, any sentence which is a logical consequence of one or more of the axioms is also a sentence of that theory." – wiki

      "Philosophical theories are those whose subject matter consists not in empirical data, but rather in ideas are in the realm of philosophical theories and are contrasted with scientific theories. At least some of the elementary theorems of a philosophical theory are statements whose truth cannot necessarily be scientifically tested through empirical observation." – wiki

      2. They DO NOT understand the difference between macro and micro evolution or even know what the word epigenetics means.

      This means that creationists are unable to contribute to the debate, much like the stone in the story of the stone soup. Everyone else adds their ingredients, carrots, onions, peppers, potatoes (facts, data, evidence) and the religious people show up with their stone to add claiming it's what gives the magic flavor to the soup, but on closer examination does nothing but take up space.

      Here are the evolutionists two biggest problems:

      We do not KNOW the exact origins of:
      1. Bang
      2. Spark

      We can examine the big bang from the radiation footprint it has left, but we have not yet found any way to verify the cause.
      We can examine the evolution of life on this planet and have mountains of evidence to support the fact that life does find a way through adaptation and micro changes, but we have not yet found the method by which the "spark" of life took seed.

      Can you not understand that just because we admit that we do not know something does not give you and your religious ilk the power to lay claim to those origins with absolutely NO proof other than to say "See, this is really complex so it must have been "my God" which then gives me the rights and privilages to stomp all over anyone and anything we please, we are "God's People" after all.

      Keep telling yourself that what George Castanza said was true, "It's not a lie...If you believe it..."

      February 24, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • kenny

      There are things about organized religion which I resent. Christ is revered as the Prince of Peace, but more blood has been shed in His name than any other figure in history. You show me one step forward in the name of religion and I'll show you a hundred retrogressions. Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are miserably misguided and probably evil as well.

      believers use religion like a trolley-car–they ride on it only while it is going our way.

      February 24, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
  15. Lorraine

    Sam, Steve7,Sunny 62, and MyGodrocks, jjivoni, Lophat, from page 80, I have the same KJV book, which is truly the book of remembrance that YHWH left for us in Malachi 3v16, to remember Him, and what He has done for us. It the OT tells us the truth, as with true christian says, the truth, and jjovinai says that they had always thought that the book was just fables, made by the Romans in which some of it was altered, especially in the NT(not true). Yes in 200BCE the hellenistic jewish writers, and the alexandrian jews with the romans were rewriting the Hebrew text to delude the masses all through 200AD then christ from 50AD to 200AD, 600 years of rewriting the NT(not true), and some inserts in the OT, look it up, before this had happened, it was all prophesied in Deut.32v17, by Moses, and in Daniel 11v39 (christianity),43(Islam), by the true prophets of YHWH, of how we will in the latter days, and in the 4th kingdom,(now), in Daniel 2v40, of our future generations that will be praising idols, strange gods, devils that our fathers Abraham, Issac, and Jacob knew not. Then remember this that your Heavenly Creator YHWH changes not, in Malachi 3v6, so that we are not consumed. After the last jewish roman revolt in 135BCE, it all was done, and by 311BC the jewish made a deal with Constantine of the council of Nicea to legalize (force) christianity, so yes there are many changes in the NT Steve7, that YHWH would never say for He changes not in Malachi 3v6, and this is why He gave us this scripture to warn us of any changes His Word stands, so NO, we should never eat shellfish, or any scavengers, nor unclean meats. As in Ezekiel 14v14, and in Jeremiah 31v30, we all have to be as Job, Daniel and Noah, they all had to live by their own righteousness they are not any exception to the rule the law, we must live, and eat right, and do righteously by one another, and ourselves, be humble, and love each one no matter the skin, and do the 10 commandments they are our life, our breath as in Genesis 2v7, was given to us. The law is our life in Deut.32v45-47, says Moses, and Moses through YHWH helped us to get grace, favor, in Exodus 33v12-17. These scriptures are the truth people. Not made up ghost and goblins just real life. The rewriting is taking us away from the truth the real life law, this is why there is so much illness, and premature death, and sufferings we are all being mislead, and taken away from our Creator YHWH who loves us so, that He gave us free will, and He knows exactly what we need to live right He made us, and He only ask that we return to Him in Malachi 3v7, wholeheartedly, and in Isaiah 44v22, here He tells us that He has saved and redeemed us, and has forgiven all of our sins, He is the only savior in Isaiah 49v26, and Isaiah 60v16, no man can be delivered out of His hands in Isaiah 43v13. And, Sunny 62 Amen is pagan it is the Egyptian praise for their idols amen sirapus, amen rah, look it up, the true praise is Selah, its used in Psalms, and it means to raise up on high. MyGodrocks, what is sad about having a prolonged and healthy yet happy life from YHWH, Job had one he lived for four generations to witness all of his children, and children's children to see them grow, and become good people in life, and to see them grow and be healthy for they all followed the law. His life was good, and prosperous, and fulfilled with joy, he lived great, and died a happy old man. What more do you people want we are of flesh and blood, you all have been mislead, for in the OT, the book of remembrance YHWH tells us of how He is angered by priest, popes, rabbis elders, pastors, not telling the truth, Malachi 2, Ezekiel 20, Jeremiah 23v1-8. We need each other people, we need to care about our lives our children's lives they are all precious, we need to all want to be together, eat right, and do for one another on a high scale, not that fakeness, but for truth, and righteousness, and above all peace, no in difference no greed, no poverty and come back to righteousness the law of YHWH, and do right, the 10 commandments, Exodus 20, Exodus 12, the passover, and the sabbath in Leviticus 23, a day of rest, this is all for the goodness of everyone. Now, Lophat this would be a good drug for all the masses, peace, love, and righteousness is all that the Creator YHWH ask of us. Read Genesis – Malachi of the book of remembrance and do the law, Malachi 4v4, the last prophet of YHWH until this day in Amos 3v7, for YHWH does nothing without them so that we won't be mislead.

    February 23, 2012 at 9:37 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Hey guys, correction on that date....200BCE to 200AD and christ was from 50AD to 400AD, making it 600 years of rewriting of the NT, and some inserts of the OT, such as the word Jew, this replaced Hebrews, and is how you know of the rewriting of the book of remembrance, the so called OT in Malachi 3v16, because whenever you see the word Jew, this lets you know that the Hebrew Israelis were not talked about anymore after 161BCE, many were all in captivity at this time. Also, the phrase 'born of a virgin' where it is used in Isaiah 7v14, and over in the NT of mary, this phrase replaced what was truly there, and it was the Hebrew word 'almah' meaning maiden, a young woman married, or a married woman. Some book versions do say maiden, and many say 'born of a virgin.' For Isaiah's wife had an older son already, so she could not be a virgin when her son Immanuel was to be born for a sign to the king, this should be (governor) Ahaz from YHWH. For the Only King is YHWH. Yes the 1 and 2 Kings was originally the 1 and 2 Governors books.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:51 am |
  16. Paul

    Momoya said; Your do not understand science or what it says. Life did not come from "nothing." You believers who do not understand science always want to make it sound like magic because that is what you believe.
    I have presented nothing magic my friend. Just facts, it sounds like we agree that life cannot come from nothing. That’s a good start. I have drawn conclusions from facts.
    For example most of us know and use a camera. An incredible design and functions just as it was intended by it’s designer, no one would argue that! Now I don’t know who designed and manufactured my Cannon Digital 350, but I can appreciate the designer must be pretty clever and probably above my pay grade. But I don’t doubt for a minute that he/she exists, I have the evidence in my hand.
    Now take the human eye, the camera is only a copy, and a poor one at that, of the eye. So logic, reason and every other faculty I have tells me if a camera needs a designer and manufacturer then my eye must also. That is true science, I have the evidence and a detailed study of the eye points to a designer. There is no other answer that makes sense.

    February 23, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • momoya

      @ Paul

      Complexity and incredulity do not add up to proof. By your reasoning, there's little elves carving out each complex and incredible snowflake.

      And yes, your eye was designed by millions of years of evolutionary process. Read up on it. True science doesn't suppose a thing if there is no evidence for its existence. Something being cool or having a nifty function does not demand a personal designer–so say the snowflakes.

      February 23, 2012 at 6:52 pm |
    • Paul

      @momoya
      Your trying to tell me that if I dismatle my camera into all it's parts. Shake it around in a bucket for who knows how long it will assemble and be a perfectly functioning camera at the end??

      February 23, 2012 at 11:48 pm |
    • Paul

      @momoya.
      Why do you keep taking things to their extreme? NO snow flakes are not made by little elves. There are fundimental laws that govern the making of every snow flake. But there are mathmatics behind those laws. If you care to have a look at a snow flake up close you will see the semetric design. The question is how did this design patern get started? Who set the laws? You speak of law yourself in some of your arguments. Every law has a law maker. Accepted fact. For example the Law of gravity. Who made that law then?

      February 23, 2012 at 11:56 pm |
    • Paul

      @momoya.
      You can't have it both ways the eye was either designed or evolved. Design takes a designer. Evolution relies on chance and accident. As soon as you use the word design you recognise an intelligence behind it with a purpose.

      February 24, 2012 at 12:06 am |
    • momoya

      @Paul

      You said: "Your trying to tell me that if I dismatle my camera into all it's parts. Shake it around in a bucket for who knows how long it will assemble and be a perfectly functioning camera at the end??"

      Nope. I would never say that. How stupid would that be? Your analogy bears no relation whatsoever to any scientific theories. It sounds like a rather poor attempt at mocking a really distorted view of evolution, but it's so far off the mark that I have no idea what you're trying to assert. Try again?

      What am I taking to the extreme? You are the one saying complex designs always need a personal designer. That's what you said. By that logic snowflakes need to be designed. But that's silly, as you can tell.

      You see, when it comes to our universe and how it makes galaxies and stars and planets (at least one per star!!!) "There are fundimental laws that govern the making of every" atom and galaxy and chemical combinations that rather rapidly give rise to life. "But there are mathmatics behind those laws. If you care to have a look at a" galaxy or living cell or atom "up close you will see the semetric design" and that's how we know roughly how old the universe is, how an atom or molecule operates and so on, and so on. (Pssst.. it's called science. Don't tell anyone!) Research leads us to more knowledge that is then used in medicine, geology, chemistry and so on.

      One of the questions that we don't know the answer to is "how did this design patern get started?" And we're still looking for answers. Nobody needs to imagine sky daddy magicians for any reason, here.

      Since we have no verifiable evidence of a personal "designer" of some sort, it doesn't make sense to assert one in a question about "Who set the laws?" We can research into the laws, and see if a code comes through with some sort of message, but we have no reason to think it was a "who" instead of a "what." But just think, maybe we will find a 'what,' answer, and that answer is 100 times more beautiful and meaningful than any god of any religion. What then!!

      Simply asserting that gravity and other universal laws must have a thinking "lawmaker" is just conjecture. If god did all the stuff you claim, I expect he would be obvious and most worship would be similar and most people would agree on god's nature. I would expect as much agreement about this "designer" as there is for math or chemistry. You shouldn't be able to "fake" it like so many believers do–not because they can, but because the must.

      Don't waste my time with your biased conjecture; give me proof. Where is it? Why do people of all different religions use the same math and chemistry? Where is your god's consistency? Why is he such a horrible communicator that everybody who wants to follow him wind up doing vastly different forms of worship from pure horror and terrorism (lake of fire, anyone?) to utter inward meditation that hardly needs a god idea? Why is it that the people with the most knowledge about how the universe works are the most likely to be atheists?

      As long as you keep looking for patterns in the clouds you'll keep seeing them. –And there's as much evidence for a "cloud designer fairy" as there is for your god. The human brain is wired to look for patterns and because we are all live with the knowledge of death, we seek comfort in a higher being just like we did as babes toward our parents and community leaders. Knowing these facts about our psychology, and knowing that there is no standard agreement of who god is or what he does, it makes sense to withhold judgement on god's existence.

      February 24, 2012 at 12:24 am |
    • Paul

      @momoya,
      You said; As long as you keep looking for patterns in the clouds you'll keep seeing them.

      The same could be easily said of you my friend and here we will end the discussion, I too am wasting my time it appears. As the Bible says; "None so blind as those who WILL not see."

      February 24, 2012 at 12:38 am |
    • plot

      So you assume that everything made has a designer, just like men design cameras. That sounds like you demand your god be exactly like a human. Your projection of human design capabilities are extremely limiting for understanding anything in the universe other than humans and the gods we create. It's particularly sad that you ignore the natural development and evolution of this incredible place we live in just to feel some cosmic connection to a god just like you. Such an egocentric species.

      February 24, 2012 at 4:11 am |
    • momoya

      @ Paul

      I spent all that time answering each one of your points, and that's how you respond? Cryptic nonsense? I guess I should have expected that sort of non-response from a believer–I'll learn one of these days.

      Oh, and the quote you attribute to the bible isn't in the bible. How in the world did you get that wrong? It's a line from Matthew Henry–a minister and bible commentator.

      February 24, 2012 at 10:08 am |
    • Paul

      @momoya
      Maybe you should actually read the Bible, Jesus was getting at that point in Matthew 6:22-23. In other words that is what he was saying. Sorry my mistake for putting it in quotation " " marks. If you want to believe in darkness and think it is light, how sad that is for you. As you believe you are enlightened but actually you are in darkness, and because you actually believe the darkness is light you will never accept the real light. That's why Jesus said how great that darkness is.

      February 24, 2012 at 8:06 pm |
    • momoya

      Pretty typical reply from a believer who began with logic but can't end with it. I responded to each one of your points, and rather than continue the debate, you fall back on unproven and nonsense dogma. At least it happened sooner rather than later.

      February 29, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
  17. Lorraine

    D Swet, I'll show you YHWH God, the fact is this, and that is your country the US is supporting the home of YHWH in Israel, they send them 3 billion a year, and munition to back them up from any of their enemies. Why? because Isreal is the true Home of the Creator YHWH, the Almighty. YHWH has said in Isaiah 34v8, that He will take vengeance on this controversy of His Homeland Zion,Israel, (future prophecy). Therefore, patriotic or not, the US is praising Israel, but for the Creator YHWH this is questionable, and the US, with their support for Israel is being protected by the US. But, there is a problem with this for the ones in Israel are not the chosen people of Israel in Exodus 4v22,23, the true Hebrews, not jews for they are the robbers, Edom, and Idumea, in the land of Israel today, as prophesied in Daniel 11v14, and Ezekiel 36v1-5, and Malachi 1v1-5. These scriptures of prophecy has been fulfilled, the ones in Israel today are Not the chosen, the chosen are (The Palestinians, and others who were scattered) are the ones who fit the scripture in Deut. 28v15v68, and vs.68 it has been fulfilled. And whats sad is that the US is aware of this, and is considered by YHWH the daughter of Babylon, who will be destroyed, for it is also prophesied in Isaiah 47, (future prophecy), this will come and is happening right now, for it is written by Jeremiah from YHWH for us to remember, and know, from the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, the so called OT. Look all around you, the US, is not getting any better is it? This prophecy has begun. Many are leaving the US today, but it won't matter YHWH will be Magnified.

    February 23, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • Lorraine

      correction......written by Jeremiah 49v7-22, from YHWH is the future prophecy of edom esau those who are claiming to be Israel in the homeland, and NOTE.....not all jews are complicit to this robbery.

      February 23, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Repost......D Swet from page 74, I'll show you YHWH God for your country the US is supporting the home of YHWH in Israel, they send them 3 billion a year, and munition to back them up from any of their enemies. Why? because Israel is the true Home of the Creator YHWH, the Almighty. YHWH has said in Isaiah 34v8, that He will take vengeance on this controversy of His Homeland Zion,Israel, (future prophecy). Therefore, patriotic or not the US is praising Israel, but for the Creator YHWH this is questionable, and they with their support Israel is being protected by the US. But there is a problem with this, for the ones in Israel are not the chosen people, and the son and firstborn 'Israel' in Exodus 4v22,23, the true Hebrews, jews are not the chosen covenant for they are the robbers, Edom, and Idumea, in the land of Israel today, as was prophesied in Daniel 11v14, and Ezekiel 36v1-5 and Malachi 1v1-5. These scriptures have been fulfilled, the ones in Israel today, are not the chosen, the chosen are the (Palestinians, and others who were scattered, exiled, the 10 tribes), and are the ones who fit the scripture in Deut.28v15-68, and vs. 68 has been fulfilled. And whats sad is that the US is aware of this, and is now considered by YHWH as the daughter of Babylon, who will be destroyed, for it is also prophesied in Isaiah 47, (future prophecy), this will come for it is written by Jeremiah 49v7-22, from YHWH for us to remember, and know, from the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, the so called OT. Look all around you, the US is not getting any better is it? This prophecy has begun. Many are leaving the US today, but it won't matter YHWH will be Magnified. Note: Not all Jews are complicit to this robbery.

      February 23, 2012 at 6:57 pm |
    • GodPot

      Just curious, but are you able to "Prove" anything without using the bible like a college reference guide? Using your logic, I can prove Middle Earth exists and that Melkor was once the mightiest of the Ainur. During the Song of Creation his strange thoughts produced Discord, and he fell through shame, then pride, then desire of domination into a lust of destruction. He became the first Dark Lord, who was named Morgoth Bauglir in Beleriand and Middle-earth. – Silmarillion "Ainulindale" Section 1.

      Try using something other than your ancient Harry Potter story to convince others that magic and miracles do happen, we just all must be muggles now or something which is why they don't work anymore.

      February 24, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
  18. Prayer is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer takes people away from actually working on real solutions to their problems.
    Prayer prevents you from getting badly needed exercise.
    Prayer makes you fat.
    Prayer wears out your clothes prematurely.
    Prayer contributes to global warming through excess CO2 emissions.
    Prayer fucks up your knees and your neck and your back.
    Prayer can cause heart attacks, especially among the elderly.
    Prayer reveals how stupid you are to the world.
    Prayer exposes your backside to pervert priests.
    Prayer makes you think doilies are exciting.
    Prayer makes you secretively flatulent and embarrassed about it.
    Prayer makes your kids avoid spending time with you.
    Prayer gives you knobbly knees.
    Prayer makes you frothy like Rick Santorum. Just google him to find out.
    Prayer dulls your senses.
    Prayer makes you post really stupid shit.
    Prayer makes you hoard cats.
    Prayer makes you smell like shitty kitty litter and leads you on to harder drugs.
    Prayer wastes time.

    February 22, 2012 at 10:53 pm |
  19. Analoger

    Ok, First off their appears to be some inconsistencies here. Secondly, Mark is not the first gospel, Matthew is. Thirdly if one understands the story of the Bible correctly, many cases the Hebrews were defending themselves. If it was not for that it is entirely possible that the Messiah would never had been born. Fourthly, I have read the Bible and I do believe that it is inspired by God. Their are also thousands of years of wisdom in there and usually when several verses of a particular topic is discussed it forms a mental image of what is correct. Also the above written text first of all does not discuss or reference any biblical verses, which kind of sends that message out to no man's land and implies that what feels good, do it. WRONG!

    February 22, 2012 at 8:59 pm |
    • momoya

      1. What inconsistencies? These inconsistencies can't be what you list as 2, 3, and 4 because if they are, you're "firstly" is not a firstly at all but an introduction to your list and your "secondly" would be your first point.

      2. Matthew comes first in the NT but was not the first gospel that was written. You're either confused or you haven't done your research. Mark was written first.

      3. How does one go about "understand[ing] the bible correctly?" Lot's of christians claim to understand the bible correctly, yet they disagree with other people who claim to understand the bible correctly. Since the bible gives no method by which to determine certain readings and interpretations correct or incorrect, it's silly to say that one can ever know that he is understanding the bible correctly. What I mean is, when two christians have two different interpretations of a passage, the bible provides no way to determine whose interpretation is correct and whose is not. That's why so many different denominations spring up–there's no way to know who is correct, and it just comes down to people's belief of which interpretation seems right to them.

      4. No doubt you have read the bible and believe it to be correct. People who grow up in a middle eastern country claim the exact same thing about the Koran. I'm not sure how your determination that a particular myth-book is correct warrants a "fourthly;' you're only saying what every myth-believer says about his holy book.

      The rest of your summation only puts forth what any believer puts forth about his own holy text–Koran, book of Mormon, whatever.

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU&w=640&h=360]

      February 23, 2012 at 10:30 am |
  20. Lorraine

    MyGodrocks, What is so sad about a prolonged and happy life, Job had one. For he lived for four generations of his children's, children and died a fulfilled and peaceful life. This is good, and more than anyone could ever want to have in life. What more do people want? With Job living righteously and eating right he prolonged his life to live and see all of his children grow up and do wondrously for themselves now is that not all that life is truly about? To see all of your loved ones happy, and healthy and all caring and loving one another, and to watch them all grow to be good people in life, nothing could be as rewarding as that. There is even the possibility that many of the seeds of Job are here on this earth with us today, very possible and if so this too is a great thing to have in life, ones descendants to carry on the legacy.

    February 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.