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December 30th, 2011
02:01 PM ET

Fox apologizes to Jews for poll on who murdered Jesus

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) - Fox Latin America has pulled and apologized for an online poll that asked who was responsible for Jesus’ death and included Jews as a possible response.

The poll had been posted on a Facebook page for National Geographic Cable TV in Latin America as part of a promotional effort for a Christmas special on the channel, according to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a Jewish group.

The National Geographic Channel in Latin America is a member of Fox International Channels, part of News Corp.

“Christmas Special is coming to Nat Geo… Who do you think responsible for the death of Jesus?” the Spanish-language poll asked, according to the Wiesenthal Center.

The multiple-choice responses were “Pontius Pilate; The Jewish People; the High Priests.”

On Wednesday, the Wiesenthal Center announced that the National Geographic Channel in Latin America had removed the poll and apologized for it.

"We sincerely apologize for the publication of a poll on our website that might have unintentionally given place to interpretations, opinions or expressions of intolerance that might affect the Jewish community," Fox Latin America’s vice president for corporate communications and PR said in a statement.

“This would contradict the mission and spirit of National Geographic worldwide, which focuses on education for diversity through shows questioning our world,” said the vice president, Guadalupe Lucero.

"We have also taken appropriate measures to prevent such incidents in the future,” he said.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Jesus • Judaism • TV • Uncategorized

soundoff (1,653 Responses)
  1. Jesus' Mom

    Jesus wasn't murdered. He died by what is today referred to as suicide by cop. He could easily have left the area and lived, but he chose to die and by letting others kill him.

    December 31, 2011 at 6:41 pm |
  2. We love your faith!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmlTHfVaU9o&feature=player_detailpage
    THANK YOU for making this video!

    December 31, 2011 at 6:32 pm |
    • dtw888

      Hi, keep it up, boy. There is a life above this life, there is joy over the joy of this world, there is a freedom over the worldly liberty. The creator and savior will hear your cry and give you true joy which will thrill you. Communicate always with Him, that is the true source of life. Do not quit until you find it, he is the only way to conquer death.....

      January 1, 2012 at 8:07 am |
    • Buzz Mann

      The boy that made this vid died not long ago.

      January 1, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
  3. brown

    F uck the jews!

    December 31, 2011 at 5:43 pm |
  4. Anti Hate

    If someone come to your house. They hold your family with a gun. They allow you to choose either your mother or father to live. For argument sake, you select your mother to live. They then kill your father. I guess by the way many feel, YOU are the one who killed your father. If you REALLY BELIEVE in Jesus, or simply believe in God, stop your hatred. Happy new year.

    December 31, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
  5. Reality

    Summarizing with a prayer:

    The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen

    References available upon request-

    December 31, 2011 at 4:43 pm |
    • Jason

      if Jesus isn't real, how did i talk to Him today?

      December 31, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
    • Eric G

      @Jason: That's the point. You were just talking to yourself.

      December 31, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • Peppermint Patty

      Jason,
      I would be willing to bet that he didn't use even one word that you don't know, and that he only spoke to you in English. Isn't that a bit susp'icious ?

      December 31, 2011 at 8:33 pm |
    • .........

      Hit report abuse on reality garbage

      December 31, 2011 at 11:21 pm |
  6. yep

    Isaiah 53:10

    December 31, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
  7. Buzz Mann

    Jesus committed "suicide by cop".He knew the prophecy and did everything he could to fulfill it.He knew when he entered the city he would be put to death and he knew when he sent Judas to snitch him out what was going to happen.Same as walking into a police station with an unloaded gun and waive it around.Suicide by cop.But isn't suicide a sin????

    December 31, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
    • Buzz Mann

      And last I looked it wasn't a Jew that nailed him up and it wasn't a Jew that stuck him in side with a spear.

      December 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
  8. AGuest9

    More contradiction: "Each of us is born with free will." However, this Jesus person apparently was not born with free will. He was supposed to die according to a plan. Too bad it was his brother's.

    December 31, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
  9. yemen camel

    Whtat is wrong with acknowledging that the Jews dierectly caused the Crucifixtion of Jesus? Why do the Jews fight the rest of humanity when we hold them accountable for their own collosal mistake? Why can't they simply repent and apologize for it rather than continue to condemn themselves because of it with no hope of redemption and forgiveness?

    December 31, 2011 at 3:27 pm |
    • Eric G

      The "rest of humanity"?

      Argument from as-sumption. 15 yard logic personal foul. Repeat first down.

      December 31, 2011 at 3:54 pm |
    • Ido Nunya

      Wait a second...First I'm told that Jesus died for my sins and then I'm told that I shouldn't have killed him?

      January 2, 2012 at 12:14 am |
  10. Funbuns

    Everyone knows Jews killed Jesus, why bother with a survey?

    December 31, 2011 at 3:18 pm |
  11. QNY81

    Didn't the Jews in the crowd ask for Jesus's blood to be on them and their generations? Sorry, the faux Jews did it. The real Jews became Christians.

    December 31, 2011 at 3:17 pm |
    • Buzz Mann

      Everyone in he crowd was Jewish.

      December 31, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
  12. Big Man

    Yep, don't like the facts get rid of the poll. Next it will be illegal to question "history."

    December 31, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
  13. ВАСИЛЬ ДОБРИ

    Причастность древних евреев к распятию ИСУСА ХРИСТА очевидный исторический факт и сегодняшнее
    еврейство,потерявшее свои роды и колени того времени не может соизмерять свою причастность наследственной вины.
    Об этом знает весь цивилизованный мир,что не требует ни извинений,ни укорения собственного достоинства за факт такого только повторения исторического факта.

    December 31, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      @ВАСИЛЬ ДОБРИ,
      Your Russian seems a bit awkward, but I agree, I think.
      There is are a number of conflicting quotes from the Old Testament on the subject, (re the sins of the fathers being "visited on the sons" :
      --Yes they do : (Exodus 20:5) – "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,", (Deuteronomy 5:9) – "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,", (Exodus 34:6-7) – "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.", (1 Cor. 15:22) – "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
      --No they don't : (Deuteronomy 24:16) – "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin." (Ezekiel 18:20) – "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

      Seems they can't make up their mind on that one. Happy New Year everyone.

      😈

      December 31, 2011 at 3:15 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      "There "is are". Wooops. Seems my English is not so hot today either. I'm really not drunk. (yet anyway). 🙂

      December 31, 2011 at 3:19 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      ...and I know Corinthians is not OT. Wake up Bucky.

      December 31, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
  14. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer causes miracles to happen

    December 31, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
    • nepawoods

      If so, someone must be praying real hard that it can't be experimentally demonstrated, because that would be something of a miracle.

      December 31, 2011 at 2:26 pm |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      Prayer changes things
      And brings about miracles
      Not by intensity
      But by Grace
      Salvation for the nation in 2012

      December 31, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Salvation in 2012? You mean the Republicants are being voted out of Congress en masse , and Obama will be re-elected? I was worried there for a while.

      December 31, 2011 at 3:24 pm |
    • ashrakay

      Yes, let's all pray for one man's amputated arm to grow back, so we can see once and for all if god cares about prayer and amputees!

      December 31, 2011 at 4:26 pm |
    • just sayin

      If and when God does that you will discredit Him and find something else to b itch about. That appears to be your nature,sad really.

      December 31, 2011 at 4:31 pm |
    • Bob

      Break the chains. Break yourself free of the Christian religion and other foolish supersti-tions in 2012.

      Free yourself in 2012.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      December 31, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
  15. Alexander Christian

    Now, does it mean that Jews admit the whole event? What is the whole dispute all about? If Jews say 'No, it was not Christ, we are waiting for another one, yet to come', – then why to be so disturbed or at least touched?

    December 31, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
  16. Tom

    I just love the Atheist's angle: I am an ape, nothing BUT an ape, so just leave me alone and LET ME BE in my ape world. God is OK with that, as He only wants companionship with those who are looking for something more.

    December 31, 2011 at 1:54 pm |
    • Anon

      You're an ape as well, but for you to realize it (even with hard evidence) is the hard part.

      December 31, 2011 at 2:07 pm |
    • Tallulah13

      Wrong, Tom. Humans, like apes, are primates. We are descended from a common ancestor. Gods are what humans invent to explain that which they don't understand. That is why humanity has invented thousands of gods throughout history, and that is why those gods have been replaced or discarded as humans have learned the real causes of the natural events around them. Eventually, the gods that are worshipped today will be on the mythology scrap heap, along with Zeus and Odin.

      December 31, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • nepawoods

      Uhm, that's more your angle than the atheists, truth (if it concerns you) be told. Modern cladistics classifies the extant species within the superfamily Hominoidea into 3 distinct groups: humans, the great apes, and the lesser apes. I don't believe atheists refute that. If your beef is with evolution in general, the majority of Christians are Catholics, and the Catholic Church acknowledges evolution too. Nowhere does the Bible say that the book of Genesis was intended to be taken literally. That's a personal (and erroneous) choice by some people, most because someone else told them they should take it literally.

      December 31, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
    • yemen camel

      Wrong Tallulah13. The problem with people like you is that, like just about all human beings,you have not the ability to perceive into the second dimension–the spiritual dimension. Hence, you believe that this universe–which made of gross matter–is the only dimension that exists. That misperception on your part causes you to deny the second dimension–the dimension wherein resides things like TRUTH, MORALITY, the PURPOSE of creation , and GOD HIMSELF. It is, in fact, your partial and skewed perception of reality that prevents you (and most of humanity) from gaining a holistic perception of reality, one which would affirm both the physical and spiritual dimensions, and which acknowledges the interactipon between these two dimmensions. But even without this holistic perception, if you were not an unbeliever, you could employ faith in God's Word in place of spiritual cognition that you lack; but, then again, that's not possible for you becasue you are an unbeliever.

      December 31, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
    • Eric G

      @yemen camel: Technically, it is you that is wrong. In your post, you make claims of reality without verifiable evidence to support your claims.

      Your post, to paraphrase, states that unless you have faith, you cannot understand the universe. To do so implies that faith is a form of knowledge. Faith and knowledge are mutually exclusive.

      To prove my point, let me as you a hypothetical question.....

      If you were in a room with a large cardboard box, and in that box was difinitive, demonstrative evidence that either proves or disproves the existence of your god, would you look inside?

      December 31, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • ashrakay

      I love how people lack the intellect to distinguish atheists, from evolutionists, from communists... Atheist are actually better known as Realists. We seek evidence of reality, rather than subscribing to fantasies. Evolutionists are people who study the evidence presented to them and piece it together to tell the story of how life developed on this planet. And on that point as someone already stated, humans are not apes, we share a common ancestor with chimpanzees and we currently share over 99% of our DNA. Please educate yourself if you want to sit at the adult table and have a discussion. We take the time to learn your side of things... You should take the time to learn ours.

      December 31, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
  17. Tom

    Who killed Christ? A better question is: Why are so many religious people racist and filled with hatred? It is because Christ, for the most part, stands outside the church. A prophet once had a vision of Christ in our times. In that vision Christ told him, "Behold, I stand outside, at the door and knock. If any man hear my voice and opens the door, then I will come in and visit with him and he with Me".
    Not all established religion is fake and composed of hypocrites, but much of it is. This is to be expected though, as Christ said, "Narrow and straight is the path that leads to life, and few there be that find it, but wide and easy is the path that leads to destruction, and many there be that find it". This readily explains how a "Christian nation" could support a war based on lies and how many religious people are racist.

    December 31, 2011 at 1:48 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Tom

      The Tea Party (mostly Evangelicals) are racist. Evangelicals aren't even Christians, preferring the words of Paul to that of Jesus. How often do you hear the Republicans mention Jesus' advice to the rich, or the treatment of the poor, or the elderly (honor your mother and your father)?

      Instead, you have the Tea Party applauding letting a man die, who failed to buy health insurance. No one bothered to read the tale of the Good Samaritan. It was tailor made for this dying man.

      The Evangelicals are fascists.

      Cheers!

      December 31, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
  18. MKULTRA BRAINCHIPIMPLANTSMAN

    MILLIONS TO BE ASSASSINATED FOR THE SAKE OF $$$ LIABILITIES(mk-ultra, chip implants, electroshocks etc. performed on them) AND NEW WORLD ORDER(multiculturalism = terrorism) POLITICAL AGENDA KNOWN AS "YOU ARE NEXT"(financial liabilities are 2 expensive for the government and it is cheaper to get read of you instead) !!! IF YOU WERE TREATED WITH ELECTROSHOCKS OR DRUGS USED FOR WIPING OUT MEMORY(numerous Americans and Europeans were and are) AFTER ENDURING FORCED CHIP IMPLANTS(or to simply rethard individual), YOU ARE SCHEDULED AT 100% RATE AS GOOD TO GO NEXT(where do you think all homeless people come from or rather who/how creates them !!?) !!!

    http://myshortbiography.blogspot.com/

    LEARN TRUTH ABOUT UNITED NATIONS, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL AS WELL AS NEW WORLD ORDER(MULTICULTURALISM = TERRORISM) GOVERNMENTS(Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) !!! NOT THERE TO PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS, BUT TO DENY YOUR RIGHT TO EXISTENCE !!!

    ABDUCTIONS / BRAIN CHIP IMPLANTS / BLACKLISTING / FORCEFUL UNEMPLOYMENT / MK-ULTRA BRAINWASHING AGAINST WHITE(under "NAZI" lie) CIVILIAN POPULATION TODAY IN 2011/2012 ACROSS THE EUROPE AND NORTHERN AMERICA !!!

    http://myshortbiography.blogspot.com/

    WHY TO ACCEPT LIABILITIES FOR CRIMES COMMITTED WHEN WE CAN SIMPLY ASSASSINATE OUR VICTIMS(YOU) THANKS TO HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS AND FREE PRESS/MEDIA(most severe censorship of genocide ever !!!)!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xGfYOAydjw
    OR
    http://www.youtube.com/user/BostjanAvsec <== OBAMA'S HEALTH CARE RECORDED LIVE IN 2009 !!! These are hard facts about lunatic Obama/Bush's twilight zone administrations(HORROR) or genocide against whites per ZIONIST Washington DC and in complete agreement with communist Moscow !!!

    EXILING WHITES WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE AND IMPORTING NON WHITES IMMIGRATION REQUIREMENTS COMPLETELY FREE.

    December 31, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Bwahahahaha... Oh, that was good, my sides hurt now.

      December 31, 2011 at 3:27 pm |
    • Buzz Mann

      Most people that feel the need to use the word "zionist" repeatedly in a post are full of crap.

      December 31, 2011 at 4:50 pm |
  19. dtw888

    It is him who killed Jesus...
    while he asked what is TRUTH, but never intended to find out what it means.

    It is you who killed Jesus...
    while you have a life of free society, but never know what is true FREEDOM.

    It is I who killed Jesus...
    while I was so sure of my judgement with my knowledge and study, until Jesus opened my eyes and guide me into LIGHT.

    Wake up all of your non-believers.

    what could you loss if you believe? DEATH.

    what could you gain if you do not believe? MESS.

    December 31, 2011 at 1:24 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @dtw888

      Before you get yourself all worked up, check out my comment to Chad and Kevin. I bet it will make you feel better...or not.

      Cheers!

      December 31, 2011 at 3:14 pm |
  20. Keith

    Who put Jesus on that cross? That's an easy one. You did. And I did. I'm glad he willing went for us. Are you?

    December 31, 2011 at 1:01 pm |
    • Philippians 2

      5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

      6 Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
      7 rather, he made himself nothing
      by taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
      8 And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      by becoming obedient to death—
      even death on a cross!

      9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
      and gave him the name that is above every name,
      10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
      11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.

      December 31, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • HEYZEUS

      Not me!

      December 31, 2011 at 1:10 pm |
    • Chad

      @Keith "Who put Jesus on that cross? That's an easy one. You did. And I did. I'm glad he willing went for us. Are you?"

      =>exactly, and well said!

      December 31, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Keith
      @Chad

      A question from the Peanut Gallery: "Who put Jesus on that cross?"

      Yep, that is an easy one!

      If the Jesus myth actually happened (doubtful), then Jesus was predestined by god, to die on the cross.

      Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

      "this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

      Jesus merely played His part in this drama... As did Judas, and Peter and all the other cast members.

      God is said to be Omniscient. He is all knowing, either because He has predestined all things or because He simply sees past, present and future...which would make everything predetermined. Actually, for an all knowing god, there would only be history.

      If god is Omniscient, then the future is predictable and unchangeable. This, in turn, means that man's actions and every event are predetermined.

      Biblical prophecy would not be possible, unless events and human actions were predetermined / predestined. A prophecy cannot be left to random chance.

      Cheers!

      December 31, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • Jason

      amen

      December 31, 2011 at 5:27 pm |
    • Chad

      David Johnson " If god is Omniscient, then the future is predictable and unchangeable. This, in turn, means that man's actions and every event are predetermined. Biblical prophecy would not be possible, unless events and human actions were predetermined / predestined. A prophecy cannot be left to random chance."

      =>God exists outside of our time and space, so He has already "seen" that which has yet to happen. As such, He knows the choices that you will make by your free will. That is how biblical prophecy exists side by side with our exercising free will. As we can exercise free will, the future is entirely unpredictable.

      God doesn't predict, he witnesses. Your logic is badly flawed.

      Of course, I have stated this in response to your nonsense at least a dozen times.. and I have confidence you will:
      a) continue to not understand or refute my demonstration that since God exists outside of time and space, free will and perfect foreknowledge can of course co-exist.
      b) continue to blindly state and restate that which has been refuted time and time again...

      There just isn't any logic to atheism..

      December 31, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      As usual, Chad and Keith are having a circle-jerk.

      December 31, 2011 at 7:21 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chad is a dolt. That is all.

      December 31, 2011 at 9:50 pm |
    • Keith

      Try not to get hit by any celebratory gunfire...Oh that's right, you don't have the right to own guns in Canada like we do. You know what? Why don't you keep your bright ideas to yourselves. We don't need nor do we want your opinion here in America.

      December 31, 2011 at 10:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So, Keithie, I guess Jesus didn't die for everyone after all, huh? Just US citizens? Eh, that's okay. I'm a resident of Maryland.

      December 31, 2011 at 10:28 pm |
    • Keith

      No He died for everyone. Even the most obnoxious spelling/punctuation/grammar nazi snobs.

      December 31, 2011 at 10:34 pm |
    • onehippypoet

      tom tom the pipers son
      stole a pig and
      now now make a real
      cute couple
      the pig is the cutest

      December 31, 2011 at 10:40 pm |
    • anotherGuest

      onehippypoet

      Not up to hippypoet's standards.

      December 31, 2011 at 10:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, nonsense, Keith. You don't believe that. If you did, you wouldn't be here acting like a complete ass hole.

      December 31, 2011 at 11:18 pm |
    • onehippypoet

      tom tom the pipers son
      stole a pig and
      the person reporting the theft
      was not hippypoet so
      they used another name entirely
      so as not to be confused
      with some drugged out wacko

      December 31, 2011 at 11:25 pm |
    • Keith

      Are you familiar with sowing and reaping? You reap what you sow, more than you sow, later than you sow(Charles Stanley). Tom, you show up on the thread taking a shot at me and Chad. Yet you somehow expect to be treated kindly even though you attack others on a regular basis? You remind me of a stalker.

      December 31, 2011 at 11:39 pm |
    • No One Mourns the Wicked

      GLINDA:
      And Goodness knows
      The Wicked's lives are lonely
      Goodness knows
      The Wicked die alone
      It just shows when you're Wicked
      You're left only
      On your own

      ALL:
      Yes, Goodness knows
      The Wicked's lives are lonely
      Goodness knows
      The Wicked cry alone
      Nothing grows for the Wicked
      They reap only
      What they sow

      December 31, 2011 at 11:49 pm |
    • TL

      @Keith

      Surface analysis of a subject will lead to incorrect assumptions.

      January 1, 2012 at 12:29 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Chad

      You said: "God exists outside of our time and space, so He has already "seen" that which has yet to happen. As such, He knows the choices that you will make by your free will. That is how biblical prophecy exists side by side with our exercising free will. As we can exercise free will, the future is entirely unpredictable."

      I don't care where your god resides or if He is made of spirit or yellow marshmallow like an Easter peep. It certainly doesn't give man free will.

      If god has seen the future, the future has been determined. It cannot be changed, or god did not truly see the future. People's actions and events are still predetermined. It may appear there are several paths to reach your destination, and you are free to take any of the paths. In reality there is only one, because god has already seen you take that path. Since He has seen it, it must happen or He is not omniscient. Simple really.

      Prophesy works because god has seen / predetermined the choices individuals will make and events that will occur.
      You ignored the bible passages I listed as evidence for you:
      Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
      "this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

      You said: "God doesn't predict, he witnesses. Your logic is badly flawed."

      I never claimed god predicted anything. Read my sentence again. This time try not to move your lips.

      witness – To be present at or have personal knowledge of.

      If god is a witness to the future, there can only be two reasons for it. 1)Either god predestined the future... like an author writing a book or 2)simply that the future is predetermined. Either way, there is no free will.

      If god has a "plan for each of us", if there is an agenda, then that pretty much rules out free will.

      "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." [Jeremiah 29:11]

      "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

      You might argue, that while god has a plan for each of us, He doesn't force us to follow this plan. The problem with this argument, is that if a person does not follow god's plan, it may affect my ability to follow god's plan. A drunk driver may run me down. A robber may shoot me. My plan would be cancelled.

      If god is all knowing, free will is an illusion.

      The 5 point Calvinists believe god knows who will be saved or damned, even before they are born. He lets the damned be born anyway, knowing they will eventually burn forever. God is love.?

      You have not been successful at refuting anything. All you have is an ambiguous bible. You have offered no proof that your Christian god exists. You gave an argument that Thomas Aquinas first proposed – God exists outside of time... It didn't work then, it doesn't work now.
      Your demigod has no eyewitnesses, likenesses, or writings. You have no proof your demigod ever existed.
      Allah or Krishna or Zeus are just as likely to exist, as the Christian god.

      Man does have free will. The reason is, not because of god, it is because god does not exist.

      Present some evidence that the Christian god exists.

      Cheers!

      January 1, 2012 at 12:38 am |
    • Chad

      @David Johnson "If god has seen the future, the future has been determined. It cannot be changed, or god did not truly see the future"
      =>not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.. God has already seen the future that we (through our free will) created.
      You need to understand that time is a dimension in the same manner as length, width and height.
      Think of it this way, if someone could go back in time (I'm not saying God goes back in time, again, He exists outside of our time), would that persons understanding of the life a person was going to have obviate their free will? No.. obviously..

      @David Johnson "Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." "this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB)."
      =>Foreknowledge is of course what I have been describing.
      =>Predetermination reflects Gods plan of salvation, when He sovereignly steps in. The reality is that God calls and we answer.

      @David Johnson "If god is a witness to the future, there can only be two reasons for it. 1)Either god predestined the future... like an author writing a book or 2)simply that the future is predetermined. Either way, there is no free will."
      =>see first answer for option #3 (God exists outside our time and space)

      @David Johnson "If god has a "plan for each of us", if there is an agenda, then that pretty much rules out free will."
      =>you arent understanding Christianity 101, humans and God are not equals, the only way we come to believe in Him is because He reveals Himself. That's what He means when He says "plan". He isn't saying "I will treat you like a marionette", He is saying "I will reveal myself to you so that you know I am real". When you know that He is real, you can listen and be guided by Him.

      @David Johnson "The 5 point Calvinists believe god knows who will be saved or damned, even before they are born. He lets the damned be born anyway, knowing they will eventually burn forever. God is love.? "
      =>Calvinists get wrapped around the axle because they don't understand that God exists outside of time and space.
      God invites EVERYONE to repentance. Even you 🙂

      January 1, 2012 at 1:12 am |
    • Chad

      @David Johnson "Present some evidence that the Christian god exists."
      1. The scientifically required necessity of an uncaused cause at the origin of the universe. The universe is expanding in all directions and cooling. Going backwards there was a point in time when the universe had infinite heat and density. Prior to this point in time (labeled a singularity) there was nothing. Not “something”, nothing. Science tells us that ALL matter and even time itself was CREATED at that point of rapid expansion. What caused this? What created everything from nothing? By definition whatever caused this expansion could not have itself had a prior cause (the infinite regression problem). Whatever caused it must have always existed. That is what physicists call the “uncaused cause”

      Atheists who dont want to believe in an uncaused cause, are stuck with either the problem of an infinite regression, or the problem of the universe being created out of nothing, by nothing.
      Atheists who do believe in an uncaused cause but don't believe it is a personal god, are stuck with the issue of having an ent ity creating the universe, but after that taking no interest in it, which would be really weird..

      2. The phenomenal preciseness and delicate balance of the properties of the“big bang” expansion which was required to allow stars/planets to form. It didn’t just randomly explode, rather it expanded in such a precise manner that an infinitesimal change would have rendered a universe where matter was so spread out no formation of stars could have possibly occurred. Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of expansion of the universe initially was slower by one in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (one hundred thousand million million), the universe would have collapsed on itself.
      A change in the strength of gravity of one part in 10^100 would have prevented star/planet formation. When you compare the range of possible values with the range of life permitting values you get unbelievably small values.

      Atheists are stuck with the “well, even though it was fantastically improbable to have happened, it somehow did!” The fine tunning was due to chance.

      3. The fact that the universe obeys laws and that science by definition relies on that which it can not by definition EVER explain: "Science starts from the existence of those laws, can NOT EVER disprove God". – Leonard Mlodinow Co-author along with Stephen Hawkings of A Briefer History of Time.

      An atheist must ignore the fact that the universe obeys laws, or like Leonard Mlodinow, just “wonder from time to time why they do”, but do nothing about it.

      4. The fossil record which shows millions of years of stable species, then an explosion of necessary mutations, all occurring at the precise necessary time required for complex organisms to develop, and ALL escaping fossilization
      “the sudden appearance of most species in the geologic record and the lack of evidence of substantial gradual change in most species—from their initial appearance until their extinction—has long been noted, including by Charles Darwin who appealed to the imperfection of the record as the favored explanation” – Wikipedia

      An atheist needs to believe that ALL species, every single one, millions of them “evolved” along this pattern: nothing happens for millions of years, then in a time period short enough to ALWAYS escape fossilization ALL of the mutations occur, precisely orchestrated such that complex organs can develop. All speciations always obey that fantastically improbable sequence.

      5. The historical evidence of Jesus Christ “Most critical historians agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jewish Rabbi who was regarded as a teacher and healer in Judaea,[18] that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and that he was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.[19] Critical Biblical scholars and historians have offered competing descriptions of Jesus as a self-described Messiah, as the leader of an apocalyptic movement, as an itinerant sage, as a charismatic healer, and as the founder of an independent religious movement.” –Wikipedia

      An atheist needs to believe that Jesus Christ was an insane man, truly insane, who believed he was fathered by a deity. We arent talking sort of nuts, really really nuts. Then you have to explain how that crazy person sounds so fantastically logical and rational in the gospel accounts.

      6. The historical fact that Jesus died and was buried in a tomb. Three days later that tomb was found to be empty, following that hundreds of people reported they witnessed the resurrected Jesus and were willing to go to their death saying that.
      An atheist is stuck with trying to understand how so many people could have been tortured to death knowing it was for a lie,

      7. The demonstrated historical accuracy of the biblical narrative in all accounts, the Gospel of Luke alone has hundreds of verified historical accuracies and has NO historical inaccuracies.
      An atheist has to believe that the authors of the Gospels a) said what that what they were writing was true and in some cases claimed to be witnesses of Jesus b) were extremely diligent with recording historical details and yet, were completely and utterly hallucinating about having seen a resurrected Jesus.

      8. The fact that we have a universal understanding of good and evil.
      – If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
      – Evil exists.
      – Therefore, objective moral values exist. (Some things are evil!)
      – Therefore, God exists.
      An atheist has to believe that some how a universal morality “evolved”

      January 1, 2012 at 1:14 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Chad

      First, even if your cosmological Argument were true , It does not mean the Christian god was responsible. I hear Allah or Krishna make a fine universe.

      You totally fail in proving your Christian God exists.

      1a. "The scientifically required necessity of an uncaused cause at the origin of the universe. The universe is expanding in all directions and cooling. Going backwards there was a point in time when the universe had infinite heat and density. Prior to this point in time (labeled a singularity) there was nothing. Not “something”, nothing. "

      Nothing is something. It is the reason a god is not needed. I will include a fantastic video on this.

      There are many well-respected physicists, such as Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Sean M. Carroll, Victor Stenger, Michio Kaku, Robert A.J. Matthews, and Nobel laureate Frank Wilczek, who have created scientific models where the Big Bang and thus the entire universe could arise from nothing but quantum fluctuations of vacuum energy — via natural processes.
      Lawrence Krauss has shown that the positive energy of the universe is divided into about 70% dark energy, 30% dark matter, and about 1% regular matter such as atoms — everything we see. As he noted, “Why such a universe in which we're so irrelevant would be made for us is beyond me.”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

      January 2, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Chad

      1b. "Science tells us that ALL matter and even time itself was CREATED at that point of rapid expansion."

      At first, only gas. SUPER heated gas. It would have taken millions if not billions of years for the gas to cool, to begin forming matter... stars and planets.

      1c.What caused this? What created everything from nothing? By definition whatever caused this expansion could not have itself had a prior cause (the infinite regression problem). Whatever caused it must have always existed. That is what physicists call the “uncaused cause”

      Physicists don't call it the uncaused cause.
      The claim that whatever caused the big bang, could not have had a cause. Why not? What caused god? If you say He is the uncaused cause, or unmoved mover, then I can claim that for my universe. By giving god a pass on the "everything must have a cause" rule, you demote your rule to a suggestion. LOL

      1d. the problem of the universe being created out of nothing, by nothing.

      Hmmm... I think the answer I gave in 1a, covers this.

      _____________________________________________

      2. "The phenomenal preciseness and delicate balance of the properties of the“big bang” expansion which was required to allow stars/planets to form. It didn’t just randomly explode, rather it expanded in such a precise manner that an infinitesimal change would have rendered a universe where matter was so spread out no formation of stars could have possibly occurred. Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of expansion of the universe initially was slower by one in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (one hundred thousand million million), the universe would have collapsed on itself.
      A change in the strength of gravity of one part in 10^100 would have prevented star/planet formation. When you compare the range of possible values with the range of life permitting values you get unbelievably small values."

      The Big Bang expansion and contraction may have happened once...or billions and billions of times. Random chance could well account for conditions being the way they are. A toss of the die. The fact is, we and the universe are here. You have no proof a god was involved. It means no more than ancient man saying god was responsible for driving the sun across the sky.
      It is just one more "God did it!"

      Believers like to use stats that are actually not worth much. Consider I have a large bowl of rice. Each grain is numbered. I mix it and mix it in a tumbler. Then, I pour it into a bowl. The grains of rice are now ordered as they are. We could carry on about how it would be virtually impossible to ever have this bowl of rice achieve this exact order again. And we would be right. But, you can't argue that it didn't do it once...

      _____________________________________________

      3. The fact that the universe obeys laws and that science by definition relies on that which it can not by definition EVER explain: "Science starts from the existence of those laws, can NOT EVER disprove God".

      No one can prove a negative. Even Santa is safe. Certainly Allah and Krishna can NOT EVER be disproved. So this is a fail...again. Krishna could have set up the laws.

      Your proofs are starting to get tedious. Are you attempting to prove that A god exists or what was asked of you and prove the Christian god exists?
      ___________________________________________

      4. The fossil record which shows millions of years of stable species, then an explosion of necessary mutations, all occurring at the precise necessary time required for complex organisms to develop, and ALL escaping fossilization
      “the sudden appearance of most species in the geologic record and the lack of evidence of substantial gradual change in most species—from their initial appearance until their extinction—has long been noted, including by Charles Darwin who appealed to the imperfection of the record as the favored explanation” – Wikipedia
      An atheist needs to believe that ALL species, every single one, millions of them “evolved” along this pattern: nothing happens for millions of years, then in a time period short enough to ALWAYS escape fossilization ALL of the mutations occur, precisely orchestrated such that complex organs can develop. All speciations always obey that fantastically improbable sequence.

      Dude! There are no rules about what an atheist must or should believe. We are pretty liberal. No believing in god is enough to be a member.

      There are tons of transitional fossils. Why so, if god created only once?

      The Cambrian explosion occurred about 530 million years ago and lasted around 80 million years. (EDIT: Quasar brought to my attention that the exact length of time of the Cambrian explosion is under dispute. However, the lowest estimate is still around 5 million years.) During this time, many of the phyla or general body types first appeared for animals. Before the Cambrian explosion, very few fossils exist of multicellular creatures, and life appears to be mainly composed of single cell organisms.

      However, NOT ALL phyla made their appearance during the Cambrian explosion. Land-based life such as flowers, ferns, etc... developed much later.

      Geologists found fossils PREDATING the Cambrian explosion of burrows which require a digging mechanism and multicellular creatures. So the idea that creatures found in the Cambrian explosion arose without precedent is simply untrue. Life had been developing into more complex, multicellular forms in the Precambrian.

      The information for evolution comes from the environment – change the environment, change the creature.
      It just so happens that the amount of oxygen in Earth's atmosphere dramatically rose during the time of the Cambrian explosion, giving animals more oxygen to work with. This extra oxygen could have enabled creatures to grow larger than ever before without suffocating their body parts due to a lack of oxygen.

      So while much remains to be learned about the Cambrian explosion, the idea that it somehow proves that an omnipotent deity magically created life on Earth is a very much unwarranted.

      So, no god here either.

      ___________________________________________

      January 2, 2012 at 9:05 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Chad

      5a. The historical evidence of Jesus Christ “Most critical historians agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jewish Rabbi who was regarded as a teacher and healer in Judaea,[18] that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and that he was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.[19] Critical Biblical scholars and historians have offered competing descriptions of Jesus as a self-described Messiah, as the leader of an apocalyptic movement, as an itinerant sage, as a charismatic healer, and as the founder of an independent religious movement.” –Wikipedia

      I bet most of your historians have religious affiliations. Biased much, you think?

      Here are historians living in Jesus' time. They write nothing:
      Philo of Alexandria (20 BC – 50 AD)
      Lucius Annaeus Seneca (ca. 4 BCE – 65 CE) A.K.A. Seneca the Younger.
      Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), better known as Pliny the Elder
      The area in and surrounding Jerusalem served, in fact, as the center of education and record keeping for the Jewish people. The Romans, of course, also kept many records.

      I also have historians with solid credentials from today.

      "If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will be fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts." Source: The Nizkor Project, 1991-2011

      Yet, you do it every time. 'Cause it's all you got. Jesus was no more real than Hercules.

      5b. An atheist needs to believe that Jesus Christ was an insane man, truly insane, who believed he was fathered by a deity. We arent talking sort of nuts, really really nuts. Then you have to explain how that crazy person sounds so fantastically logical and rational in the gospel accounts.

      No, the choice is not Liar, Lunatic or Lord. The obvious answer is myth. The Q docu_ment that Mathew and Luke used when they weren't copying word for word from Mark is believed to be a list of saying from Jesus. Eyewitnesses don't need to copy one another. Jesus was just the Harry Potter of the time.

      ____________________________________________

      6a. The historical fact that Jesus died and was buried in a tomb. Three days later that tomb was found to be empty,

      Yes, that is a problem. LOL

      1 Corinthian 15:14-17 – Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection.

      Matthew 12:40 – Jesus said, that He would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights.

      Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only 2 days at the most. Or, if you count Friday and Sunday as entire days, then you could get 3 days and 2 nights. This is a gimme though. The Mary's went to the grave at sunrise and it was empty.

      Obviously, the believers spin this like a pinwheel. I have seen explanations like: Jesus was actually crucified on Wednesday or maybe Thursday; The prophesy actually means 12 hour days, and not 24 hour days; The partial days are counted as full days. This one is true, but still doesn't add up.

      At any rate, the crucifixion day and number of days and nights Jesus spent in the grave, is disputed.

      It looks very much like, that Jesus was not in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. The prophecy was not fulfilled.

      Hmm... There seems to be a difference in the Gospels concerning the whole Resurrection myth:

      ON JESUS' FIRST APPEARANCE:
      Mark 16:14-15 – Jesus appears to Mary Magdalena but it’s not clear where (in older endings of Mark, he didn’t appear at all)
      Matthew 28:8-9 – Jesus first appears near his tomb
      Luke 24:13-15 – Jesus first appears near Emmaus, several miles from Jerusalem

      WHO SEES JESUS FIRST:
      Mark – Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena then later to “the eleven”
      Matthew – Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then to the other Mary, and finally to ”the eleven”
      Luke – Jesus appears first to “two,” then to Simon, then to “the eleven”
      John – Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas

      WOMEN'S REACTION AT TOMB:
      Mark 16:8 – The women were amazed and afraid, so they kept quiet
      Matthew 28:6-8 – The women ran away “with great joy”
      Luke 24:9-12 – The women left the tomb and told the disciples
      John 20:1-2 – Mary told the disciples that the body had been stolen

      JESUS' BEHAVIOR AFTER HIS REANIMATION:
      Mark 16:14-15 – Jesus commissions “the eleven” to preach the gospel
      Matthew 28:9 – Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and another Mary hold his feet
      John 20:17 – Jesus forbids Mary to touch him because he hasn’t ascended to heaven yet, but a week later he lets Thomas touch him anyway

      DOUBTING JESUS' RESURRECTION:
      Mark 16:11, Luke 24:11 – Everyone doubts and/or is scared at first, but eventually they go along with it
      Matthew 28:16 – Some doubt, but most believe
      John 20:24-28 – Everyone believes but Thomas, whose doubts are eliminated when he gets physical proof

      JESUS ASCENDS TO HEAVEN:
      Mark 16:14-19 – Jesus ascends while he and his disciples are seated at a table in or near Jerusalem
      Matthew 28:16-20 – Jesus’ ascension isn’t mentioned at all, but Matthew ends at a mountain in Galilee
      Luke 24:50-51 – Jesus ascends outside, after dinner, and at Bethany and on the same day as the resurrection
      John – Nothing about Jesus’ ascension is mentioned
      Acts 1:9-12 – Jesus ascends at least 40 days after his resurrection, at Mt. Olivet
      John 20:13-14 – Jesus first appears at his tomb

      1 Corinthian 15:14-17 – Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection. RIP Christianity. LOL

      Jesus had healed a woman on the Sabbath!:

      Luke 13 31:33 KJV
      31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

      32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
      33Nevertheless I must walk to day, and tomorrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

      NOTE that Jesus is saying, it is impossible for a prophet (Himself) to be killed outside of Jerusalem.

      Yet, Jesus WAS killed outside Jerusalem!
      Calvary or Golgotha was the site, outside of ancient Jerusalem’s early first century walls, at which the crucifixion of Jesus is said to have occurred.

      According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."
      Yet not a single secular mention of a three hour ecliptic event got recorded.

      Mathew 27 51:53
      51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ crucifixion and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

      How come nobody wrote about zombies running through the cities? Certainly that would have piqued the interest of the historians living at the time.

      Watch how odd this is! What a coincidence!
      "The same phenomena and portents of the sudden darkness at the sixth hour, a strong earthquake, rent stones, a temple entrance broken in two, and the rising of the dead have been reported by multiple ancient writers for the death of Julius Caesar on March 15, 44 BC." – Sources Wikipedia (John T. Ramsey & A. Lewis Licht, The Comet of 44 B.C. and Caesar's Funeral Games, Atlanta 1997, p. 99–107

      The best argument against this Jesus myth, is that god could have made tons of evidence to support Jesus' life and execution and resurrection. Lots of testimony. People carving His likeness in stone. Certainly if this were the Messiah and Son of God, there would be no doubt. Yet, as I've pointed out... only 1/3 of the world's population believe in the Jeezer. Sad.

      6b.following that hundreds of people reported they witnessed the resurrected Jesus and were willing to go to their death saying that.

      1 Corinthians 15:5-8 where Paul says five-hundred people saw Jesus after his resurrection.
      And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (KJV).

      Notice how it wasn't REALLY 500 people who reported seeing this reanimated carpenter / stone mason. It was only one person – Paul. Hmm... He didn't bother to take down any eyewitness accounts, something that would have been solid evidence. Paul could have proclaimed 500 or a million. Easy when it's just story telling.

      No proof that it ever happened.

      ______________________________________________

      7. The demonstrated historical accuracy of the biblical narrative in all accounts, the Gospel of Luke alone has hundreds of verified historical accuracies and has NO historical inaccuracies.

      Umm... No Sparky.

      "People assume the Bible accurately reflects history. That is absolutely not so, and every biblical scholar recognizes it.

      Do stories of heroic figures not grow, experience magnifying tendencies and become surrounded by interpretive mythology as the years roll by?

      Jesus of Nazareth, according to our best research, lived between the years 4 B.C. and A.D. 30. Yet all of the gospels were written between the years 70 to 100 B.C., or 40 to 70 years after his crucifixion, and they were written in Greek, a language that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples spoke or were able to write.
      Are the gospels then capable of being effective guides to history? If we line up the gospels in the time sequence in which they were written – that is, with Mark first, followed by Matthew, then by Luke and ending with John – we can see exactly how the story expanded between the years 70 and 100.

      For example, miracles do not get attached to the memory of Jesus story until the eighth decade. The miraculous birth of Jesus is a ninth-decade addition; the story of Jesus ascending into heaven is a 10th-decade narrative.

      In the first gospel, Mark, the risen Christ appears physically to no one, but by the time we come to the last gospel, John, Thomas is invited to feel the nail prints in Christ’s hands and feet and the spear wound in his side.
      Perhaps the most telling witness against the claim of accurate history for the Bible comes when we read the earliest narrative of the crucifixion found in Mark’s gospel and discover that it is not based on eyewitness testimony at all."
      Source: John Shelby Spong

      ________________________________________

      January 2, 2012 at 9:07 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Chad

      8. The fact that we have a universal understanding of good and evil.
      – If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

      Objective morals do not exist. All morals are relative.

      Does god commands something because it is moral ?
      or is something moral because god commands it?

      There are no set rules for behavior that cannot be changed. No objective morality. All morality is relative. Subjective.

      Our morals evolved along with our intellect. It is part of the survival of our species. We began to feel empathy for our fellow creatures. Sympathy for their misfortunes and pain.

      Scientists have found this trait developing in primates.
      "Scientist Finds the Beginnings of Morality in Primate Behavior" New York Times March 20 2007

      We learn our morals and our religion from our parents.
      Society stamps every individual with its concepts. If you were born in U. S., you have many Christian concepts whether you are religious or not.

      God himself is not moral or just or good.

      A belief in superst_itions gives people an illusion of control in an uncertain world.

      Cheers!

      January 2, 2012 at 9:08 pm |
    • Chad

      David, to assist with your continued quest to stop using 200 words to make a 20 word nonsense argument appear more substantial, I have boiled your arguments down for you.. You can just cut and paste this list...

      @David Johnson: “God cant Omniscient (all knowing)/biblical prophecy obviates humanities free will and makes future predictable and unchangeable because if God foreknows/preordains, then we have no choice in the matter.”
      => God exists outside of our time and space, so He has already "seen" that which has yet to happen. As such, He knows the choices that you will make by your free will. That is how biblical prophecy exists side by side with our exercising free will. As we can exercise free will, the future is entirely unpredictable.
      Think of it this way, suppose I went back in time to 1940 and wrote down that Obama was going to be president and buried it in a box. If we dug it up in 2012 would that obviate our free will just because I knew what was going to happen?
      Predetermination reflects Gods plan of salvation, when He sovereignly steps in. The reality is that God calls and we answer

      @David Johnson: “God cant be Omnipotent ( all powerful) and Omnibenevolent (all good) because only 1/3 of the world population is Christian”
      =>God doesn’t force us to believe in Him, we have free will.

      @David Johnson “Jesus didn’t exist”
      =>see Wikipedia “Historicity of Jesus”
      “Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.”

      @David Johnson “People make up all kinds of gods, they made up the God of Abraham also”
      =>That isn’t an argument.. The fact that people make up fake gods has no bearing on the existence of a real God any more than the existence of fake Elvis Presleys means the Elvis never existed. Circular reasoning.

      January 2, 2012 at 9:26 pm |
    • Chad

      One last thing David, it is customary to indicate your source (not doing so is called plagiarism). A quick google check revealed you simply copy/pasted all your info from http://atheism.about.com/..

      January 2, 2012 at 9:33 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Chad

      You wrote your usual "I have historians" for the Jesus myth. As I pointed out, probably most (all?) have Christian affiliations and would find it detrimental, to find Jesus was the Sooby Do of ancient times.

      I answered everyone of your arguments. You did not prove that even a god exists, let alone the Christian god. You tend to ignore the things that disprove your arguments.

      I explained to you how the gods came to be. How "God Did It" is still alive, but on life support.. There are several theories that show the universe could have been created without a god.

      With 3 hours of darkness, zombies walking the streets, and all the crowds and miracles that were done prior to the crucifixion, at least one, contemporary historian should have given Jesus a few lines in their records. But, they didn't.

      I showed how Julius Caesar had similar reports upon his death...which preceded Jesus'. Why the similarity? Was Caesar perhaps a half brother?

      The Gospels have important differences. If this is so, how can you claim the bible is inerrant. As Spong points out, each gospel gets fatter as time goes on. Even the resurrection is not agreed upon.
      This may be part of the reason, the bible is considered ambiguous. ?
      All of the bible would be happy living in the fiction section of the book store.

      I grow weary of typing your handle. We are done. You cannot prove your god exists. You cannot prove Jesus was not a myth. You lack any solid evidence:

      No contemporary witnesses

      No one actually knows who wrote the gospels

      No known secular writings about Jesus, that aren't forgeries, later insertions, or hearsay.

      Contemporary historians: Philo of Alexandria (20 BC – 50 AD) ; Lucius Annaeus Seneca (ca. 4 BCE – 65 CE) A.K.A. Seneca the Younger; Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), better known as Pliny the Elder; The different scribes said to be around - All wrote nothing about Jesus in spite of all the miracles, crowds, 3 hour darkened sky and zombies rising from their graves. You gotta be joking. And if something was written an all powerful god should have been able to preserve it.

      No likeness of Jesus chiseled into a stone or a tree. No description given. Even Muhammad was described.

      Jesus was the product of a virgin birth and so was not a descendant of David, which was a requirement of the Messiah.

      Jesus was not in the tomb 3 days AND 3 nights as He said He would be.

      I have even included videos to enlighten you. You can bring a Christian to truth, but you can't make him think.

      Cheers!

      January 3, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
    • Chad

      Right, I think I have it boiled down pretty good with this list, right?

      @David Johnson: “God cant be Omniscient (all knowing)/biblical prophecy obviates humanities free will and makes future predictable and unchangeable because if God foreknows/preordains, then we have no choice in the matter.”
      => God exists outside of our time and space, so He has already "seen" that which has yet to happen. As such, He knows the choices that you will make by your free will. That is how biblical prophecy exists side by side with our exercising free will. As we can exercise free will, the future is entirely unpredictable.
      Think of it this way, suppose I went back in time to 1940 and wrote down that Obama was going to be president and buried it in a box. If we dug it up in 2012 would that obviate our free will just because I knew what was going to happen?
      Predetermination reflects Gods plan of salvation, when He sovereignly steps in. The reality is that God calls and we answer

      @David Johnson: “God cant be Omnipotent ( all powerful) and Omnibenevolent (all good) because only 1/3 of the world population is Christian”
      =>God doesn’t force us to believe in Him, we have free will.

      @David Johnson “Jesus didn’t exist”
      =>see Wikipedia “Historicity of Jesus”
      “Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.”

      @David Johnson “People make up all kinds of gods, they made up the God of Abraham also”
      =>That isn’t an argument.. The fact that people make up fake gods has no bearing on the existence of a real God any more than the existence of fake Elvis Presleys means the Elvis never existed. Circular reasoning.

      January 3, 2012 at 8:58 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.