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 Evangelicals are expected to account for about 40% of the Republican vote on Tuesday's primary in Florida.
January 28th, 2012
02:00 AM ET
Florida Evangelicals a different breed of voter than brethren in Iowa, South CarolinaBy John Sepulvado, CNN (CNN) - Conservative Christian activist Ralph Reed has called the Bible Belt home for decades, but he grew up in Miami in the 1970s, when the city was emerging as a diverse megalopolis. Among his middle school friends were Jews, Catholics and Methodists. Then, at age 15, Reed's family relocated to the sleepy mountain town of Toccoa, Georgia, so his dad, a doctor, could take a better-paying job. “It was very conservative,” says Reed, who now lives outside Atlanta. “At first – as would be true of any 15-year-old – I didn’t like it. I think it was a culture shock.” Ultimately, the mostly evangelical residents of Toccoa shaped Reed’s faith, helping lead him to Jesus in his 20s. But in terms of his faith-based organizing, the well-known activist drew more on his experiences in hyper-diverse Miami. "Later on in life, when I became a leader in the Christian Coalition, I had a greater appreciation [for] ethnic and religious diversification,” Reed says. That could be good news for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney. The former Massachusetts governor is looking to regain momentum from chief rival Newt Gingrich, after the former speaker’s upset in South Carolina, in Florida’s Tuesday primary. There are signs that Florida’s evangelical voters may be more forgiving of Romney’s past social liberalism than their Iowa and South Carolina brethren – and more willing to support a Mormon candidate. “I think Romney could do well in Florida,” Reed says. A more centrist evangelicalism As a percentage of GOP voters, there are fewer evangelicals in Florida compared to South Carolina and Iowa, where Rick Santorum won the presidential caucuses, according to CNN exit polls from 2008. In that year, evangelicals accounted for 40% of Republican primary voters in Florida, compared to 60% in the Iowa caucuses and South Carolina primaries. And compared to those other early primary states, Florida is much more religiously diverse. In the 2008 primary there, Catholics were nearly a third of the Republican vote, with other kinds of Christians, Jews and those with no religious affiliation each claiming a chunk of the vote. Still, evangelical Christians claim a bigger share of the Florida Republican vote than any other religious tradition. There also are signs they may be more tolerant of a Mormon candidate than born-again Christians in the Bible Belt and Midwest. In the South Carolina primary, Romney claimed 22% of the evangelical vote, compared to 44% for Gingrich, according to CNN exit polls. Florida’s evangelicals are “more open” to the idea of a Mormon in the White House, according to Orlando area pastor Joel C. Hunter. “Our nature, of being a fairly mobile state, with a lot of tourism and a lot of transcultural and transnational interaction really makes us boundary spanning, rather than sticking to our own affinity groups,” Hunter says. He leads a congregation of 15,000 at Northland, a Church Distributed, a nondenominational megachurch of the kind that are more popular in Florida than in Iowa or South Carolina. “For any independent church, you’re going to be open – necessarily open – to non-ready made boundaries, open to other religious groups,” Hunter says. “You’ll be more likely to partner with groups that aren’t necessarily like your own.” The pastor cites his church’s partnerships with local synagogues and mosques to help local homeless children. For Hunter, teaming up with different religious traditions follows the example of Jesus. “Jesus talked to the people, the religious leaders others wouldn’t talk to,” he says. “As an evangelical, I should be ready to talk to a lot of people that aren’t like myself, because that’s what I see in the life of Christ, and I’m looking to build relationships.” Mark I. Pinsky, the Florida-based author of "A Jew Among Evangelicals," says there are other key differences between evangelicals in Florida and those in Iowa and South Carolina. “In Iowa,” Pinsky says, “they tend to be rural and older. In South Carolina, they tend to be more fundamentalist, and more likely to be affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention,” a denomination that isn’t shy about pointing out theological differences with Mormonism. Pinsky says Florida evangelicals, especially in the central part of the state, are more likely to have Mormons as neighbors, compared to their brethren in South Carolina and Iowa. “Nondenominational evangelicals are less likely to demonize someone who is a real person,” Pinsky says. Less Preaching, More Teaching Even in smaller Baptist churches in Florida’s Panhandle, there are “notable differences” with Christians in more historically evangelical parts of the country, according to pastor Curtis Clark. “There’s still a lot of yelling from the pulpit in South Carolina,” says Clark, who leads a congregation of 2,500 at Thomasville Road Baptist Church in Tallahassee. Clark says his congregation is split between Republicans and Democrats, that almost all the adults have college degrees and that the parishioners want to be led, not yelled at. “I try and teach, try and encourage,” Clark says. “Florida evangelicals are a little bit more educated, and have a broader experience.” Census figures from 2010 show Florida has a slightly greater share of college graduates than South Carolina. Both the Romney and Gingrich campaigns are reaching out to evangelicals to quell concerns about their candidacies. Both campaigns held conference calls with influential conservative religious leaders last week, discussing religion, personal and policy decisions. Many evangelicals have expressed concern about Romney’s past support for abortion rights and gay rights and over Gingrich’s failed marriages. But Romney doesn’t need to win big among evangelicals to take Florida, Reed says. Because evangelicals make up a smaller portion of Republican voters, Reed says Romney only needs to win a sizeable share of their support. “If Romney gets a third of evangelical voters” Reed says, “he wins the primary.” While Romney skipped meeting with some evangelical leaders in South Carolina, including officials at Bob Jones University, his campaign has started more aggressively courting pastors and religious community networks in Florida. The campaign has participated in multiple conference calls with religious leaders and activists. “In part, I think [the Romney campaign is] more open to outreach by virtue of the Florida demographic,” Reed says. That suggests the Romney camp suspects Florida’s evangelicals will be more open to his candidacy than other evangelicals in the primary states so far.
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Actually, no one of us has actually here when the world has begun. That's the reason why nobody has claimed absolutes regarding whether God really does exist or not. Until, your kind came and making such presumtuous claim of "no god". In fact, agnostics that comprise the VAST MAJORITY of unbelievers doesn't make such EXTREMELY ARROGANT claim like the way atheists did.
Atheists have been around as long as religion has. When the first ones said "must be a god making the storm" ... one person said "show me" .. they go hand in hand. Where you have religion, there will always be someone to question it.
No, you are NOT anymore questioning God's existence. You have been crossing beyond what other non-believers, like agnostics do.
You have been making a PRESUMTUOUS and EXTREMELY ARROGANT claim the ABSOLUTENESS of "no god".
And your claim is that there IS one? Out of the thousands of 'gods' that have been worshipped throughout man's time on this planet, how do you KNOW your 'god' is real, when you've dismissed all those others?
If you might have noticed that I've been commenting under you posts. But even you scan them one by one, you can never find a sigle one that I absoulutely claimed about the existence of any God and had dismished others either. Neither did I quote nor use a single bible verse to support my posts.
I just find your posts PRESUMTUOUS and EXTREMELY ARROGANT especially when started to use anything about Science to refute a religious post and to support PRESUMTUOUS and EXTREMELY ARROGANT CLAIMS of your own.
Science is ever-evolving, looking for answers. Religion is static, never changing, and does NOT want its "answers" questioned... why is that?
It's the reason why Science should neither be use to refute nor to support any claims of "no god" coz Science itself doesn't claim any absolutes.
So, religion is an absolute?
You are not insinuating that Science is the complete opposite of Religion, are you?
You should have suggested it to Mirriam. Or, do you have a plan to create a dictionary by your own?
Just for the sake of answering your question, as I've said, nobody could claim absolutes.
There lot of things that Science and Religion could not agree with each other. But that does NOT necessarily mean that the two are completely exclusive.
In fact, when Science and Religion met, It becomes an absolute thruth.
But the devil could never allow it to happen because it want humans to be forever deprived from the ultimate truth. So he sent his minions on earth. That's why there are ahteists.
So ... the "devil" made me think this way? Or, am I one of the 'minions'? Or am I possessed and in need of an exorcism?
If you're an atheist then you fall on the first two of your guess/question. And excorsism will no longer work for you because you are born that way.
You might not believe in the devil either but that only shows how deceitful it is. Even its minions are left clueless with their mission but unwittingly doing it. It made them mindless zombies.
Supposing that atheists were right about the “evil” of all religious people. Supposing it were proven with out a trace of doubt that there is no god and all people were convinced it was true. Then try to imagine, if you can, the fate of this world?
Supposing that christians were right about the “evil” of all athiests. Supposing it were proven with out a trace of doubt that there is a god and all people were convinced it was true. Then try to imagine, if you can, the fate of this world?
I hate to tell you but all Christians / persons on the face of the earth are evil and under the hand of sin. Its only by the grace of God who sent is Son to pay for our sin with his life. Just because you become a Christian doesn't mean you are free from sin. ( God has a funny way of showing this to the proud Christians ) It means you stop trying to sin. That is the difference between pagan and Christian. We know it is wrong and dont do it and they dont and will sin at the drop of a hat and not think anything of it. Does that mean we will never sin again. No, we are son's of Adam and prone to sin.The fate of this world is already writen in stone, no matter what Christians or Athiest Say.
Romans 3
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
@ Bo .. John Lennon said it best .. "and the world would live as one" ... imagine .. it isn't hard to do
Yes he did. But only when he said, "LET IT BE".
Paul sang that, not John.
Sam
Same old trick to hide your incompetence to complete a single decent sentence.
But let's add salt to your injury. Actually, (if you don't know it yet) almost ALL people in the world do believe there is God. The vast minority of you who don't, neither make any sense nor significant to change things. The best you can do is to whine.
Nope, they sang it as a band (Beatles). As their final single prior to Paul's departure from the band.
I KNOW what band they were in, Paul did the vocals on "Let It Be", not John
LOL idiots.
Ah, ok you win...it doesn't have any religious significance anyway.
RIP Mary McCartney.
Sam
Obviously you are NOT an American, quit pretending as one. Go back to North Korea.
WAIT!!!! don't forget to bring Tom Tom with you.
Two reasons why government officials are corrupt?
1.) Because they are in the capacity and position to do it.
2.) They think that no one will know what they do and they have the capablity to hide it from (other) people.
God fear would make a man of faith to think a thousand time and will ultimately stop him from being corrupt and from doing other vain things of the world.
Because you can hide an elephant inside a freezer from man's eye but you could never hide even a quark-size object in a haystack from the eyes of God.
Romney's honesty in paying ti.thes and offerings significantly symbolizes his Obedience, Great faith and fear to God.
Those characteristics and attributes combined with experience and skills in public service and politics, would definitely make him a great American President.
So, you WANT a leader who obeys something that cannot be proven, and this leader will FEAR it? Not good qualities for someone who wants to lead 300 million plus poeple.
Mirosal....YES, because he is less likely become corrupt than to those who think that they are only answerable to themselves and others.
With regards to what you called "something that cannot be be proven", You are right but ONLY by your own perspective.
But to more than 250 millions that he will going to lead, as well as to almost 6 billions people on earth, it has been proven for eons. And the proof is inside their heart, it's called FAITH and nothing in history on earth is more stronger than it.
should be *more strong or stronger..sorry for the double comparison.
We see everyday what the humanistic world view does to people. Wallstreet is an example. You teach them in upscale colleges across the land that truth is relevant and morality is just a chemical reaction andt can be made up by anyone. And then you want them put in jail when the market crashes because of there unscroupulous business dealings. They just did what is right in there own eye's who are you to say they are wrong? Who's morality are they suppose to follow? your's? Stalins? Hitlers? Bill Cosby's. We have seen the great Athiests of the past and the mass genocides commited in the name of mankind and we want nothing of it. In whom else should I trust? Man? Please!!!
oh yes .. 'faith' .. to believe without any evidence. The Greeks, Romans, Norse, Egyptians .. they all had 'faith' too, and golly gee whiz, where are those pious, religious societies today? Where were their gods when their ways of life were crumbling down? As far as Wall Street, just how many do you know are Atheists? And how many go to church? You'll find the upper eschelon of Wall Street filled with hypocrites. "We have seen the great Athiests of the past and the mass genocides commited in the name of mankind and we want nothing of it. In whom else should I trust?" .. do we really need to show the historical records of the atrocities committed in the name of a 'god'? You talk of genocide. your own 'god' COMMANDED that genocide be done. And you follow this deity!! I can hear your wheels spinning with names like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao. Stalin was paranoid he'd lose power. His purges were purely political, not atheistic or religious in any way. Hitler was raised Catholic. While he did renounce his Catholic doctrines, he NEVER disavowed 'god'. In fact, Nazi rituals were rife with being right in the eyes of 'god'. Pol Pot, Mao ... again, pure politics to get and remain in power. Religion had no part of their rise to, and holding on to, political power. Any perceived threat was quashed.
Human's intelligence and understanding has the capability to do what is right but is very susceptible to corruption. Especially when the necessity requires and the situation allows it.
But the thought of Someone who has a great power watching over what every man is doing and no one can hide anything from Him, makes a man noble.
@Mirosal
"The Greeks, Romans, Norse, Egyptians, they all had 'faith' too."
Oh, you forget to mention the spartans, barbarians and pagans, they all have too....Only atheist don't. And that made them the lowest class and VAST MINORITY ever since the world begun.
That isn't nobility, that is fear. "DO what this book says or you will burn FOREVER" ... nice way to scare kids when they are indoctrinated into 'faith' It's coersion, not any kind of what you term as free will. Being 'holy' does not make one less susceptible to corruption. Do we really need to go into the pastors, priests, evangelists who have made headlines of their corruption? And sitting in the Oval Office thinking "WWJD" is NOT the way to run a country. You'd have better luck throwing dice or using a dartboard.
And it's amazing, isn't it, that the concept of 'hell' did not even exist until X-tianity reared its head. There was belief in an afterlife, sure, but no one was threatened by rhetoric about being punished after they die, or being judged. Just a way to control, coerce, and keep the sheep in line. Welcome back to the Dark Ages.
“God fear would make a man of faith to think a thousand time and will ultimately stop him from being corrupt and from doing other vain things of the world. “
Then please explain how we end up with so many $exualy depraved televangelists?
or the Pope?
Popularity may not be a yard stick for everything but when it comes to leadership especially in a democratic country that America is, it matters BIG.
They maybe are dumb for the eyes of few elite thinkers but their voices and welfare should always prevail over anybody else's, because, they are (inevitably) the vast majority.
Spartans were Greek. Barbarians are no more. "Pagan" is used to decribe anyone who does not worship the Judeo/X-tian 'god' ... lots of them still around .. 1 billion Hindus in India alone there. Were you there when the world began? Were you swirling around in the acretion disc with the rest of the rocks and debris that formed this world? Did you tell early life on this planet that a 'god' was causing volcanoes to erupt, and shooting lightning bolts at the ground from its hand?
TR6..I'm glad you butted-in, welcome to the conversation. It's still depend upon the individual's agency and discretion.
And fyi,I was specifically talking about Romney. Scroll-up and read my original post that you maybe properly guided.
@myklds:”TR6..I'm glad you butted-in, welcome to the conversation. It's still depend upon the individual's agency and discretion.”
Terribly sorry, I didn’t know you had this blog reserved for yourself. I was pointing out that your god does not have a great track record of garneting honesty. Romney’s integrity must stand on its own. Would you like me to provide a list of other religious types who’s integrity does not seem to have been bolstered by your god?
Mirosal...YES, it's "fear" of God. And I neither say nor claim that it's "nobility" but such fear to an Almighty Creator that no man can hide from, MAKES or CREATES "nobility".
Being noble requires a voluntary effort. Doing the right thing, or the good thing, because you WANT to. Not because you HAVE to and if you don't, you'll be the guest of honor at an eternal BBQ. want to ... have to ... see the difference?
TR6..you said: "Would you like me to provide a list of other religious types who’s integrity does not seem to have been bolstered by your god?"
As far as I'm concern, No, don't bother yourself coz honestly I don't have a bit of interest to any of them.
But since I don't have "this blog is blog reserved for" myself. Then go ahead...you're absolutely free to say or do anything in here. Just be sure you don't pi.ss of the CNN filter.
We have different in almost everything. But for me, whether it's voluntary or compulsory as long as he become noble and not susceptible to corruption, he is the best person to run this country. Rather than those bunch of hypocrites that cloak behind the veil of evangelism but does not faithfully and honestly practice what they preached.
That separate Romney from the crowd.
should be read * we have different views in almost everything
*separates
"no, don't bother because I don't have an interest"
Such ignorance...hope you're not raising kids that way!! Being closed-minded and blind is not healthy!
Ey Truth Prevails..How (not so) nice of you calling me ignorant just because of my honest answer to TR6. When you're the one who just butted-in and do some cherry picking with my statements and bash it without reading the entire thread.
Anyway, regards me to your hubby Steve. May the two of you will "raise more kids" by being pro-abortion. And you may live happily through others misery.
Prayer changes things
God speaks His servants listen
God instructs His servants act
God loves His people rejoice
Prayer changes things
So I have a possible solution to the god/no god problem... lets say the scientists are right and there are infinate universes, where anything and everything is possible. That would there would be another universe out there where god(s) do exsist and he/she/it/them simply is/are just trying to take over every universe there is. See... win-win situation for everybody!
Sometimes atheist assert that there is no proof God exists. The only problem is that an atheist cannot logically make that claim.
In order to state there is no proof for God's existence, the atheist would have to know all alleged proofs that exist in order to then state that there is no proof for God's existence. But, since he cannot know all things, he cannot logically state there is no proof for God's existence.
At best, an atheist can only state that of all the alleged proofs he has seen thus far, none have worked. He could even say he believes there are no proofs for God's existence. But then, this means there is the possibility that there is a proof or proofs out there, and that he simply has not yet encountered one.
Nevertheless, if there was a proof that truly did prove God's existence, would the atheist be able to accept it, given that his presuppositions are in opposition to the existence of God? In other words, given that the atheist has a presuppositional base that there is no God, in order for him to accept a proof for God's existence, he would have to change his presuppositional base. This is not easy to do, and would involve a major paradigm shift in the belief structure of the atheist. Therefore, an atheist is presuppositionally hostile to any proofs for God's existence, and is less likely to be objective about such attempted proofs.
Oops, Paragraph from CAIRM on Atheism
It depends on what kind of proof you offer. Concrete, physical evidence, or a few lines from a book written 2000 years ago by a goat-herding agraian society?
Typical pedantic nit picking Christian. And if I see a flock of sheep can I only say they are white on this side?
As for an atheist’s ability to alter his viewpoint, the whole viewpoint is based on evidence. Present new verifiable evidence and the viewpoint will automatically change. Unlike viewpoints based on faith which are completely impervious to evidence, logic or reason
@Mirosal and TR6: Note here, this person is using CARM as a resource. We all know that CARM's information has been refuted numerous times over.
@erussell: not quite, the honest Atheist says that they can't be 100% sure that a god doesn't exist but until they see evidence for this, they have no reason to believe one does.
@erussell
The same could be asked about believers. Could they, would they, accept any evidence that proved their god did not exist.
Since it is the believer who is claiming that there is a god, it would be their burden to "prove" that their extraordinary claim is true.
If I claim I have fairies living in my left shoe, it would be on me to prove it to you. If I could not supply extraordinary evidence for my extraordinary claim, then you would be justified in ignoring my claim of fairies.
No one can prove that any god does not exist. I can't prove that Santa and Tooth fairy absolutely do no exist. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on the reality we see around us. I'm sure you are comfortable with saying, "Santa is fake." We know, that in the real world, fat men don't slide down chimneys. Sleighs can't hold enough toys for all the children in the world. Reindeer don't fly.
I bet you would not argue with me, if I said, "Allah or Krishna do not exist." It is only when I state that the Christian god is unlikely, that you become huffy.
But, verily I say unto you: Use the "eyes" of an outsider when you consider your god. Ask yourself if the claims of the bible are really true, in light of the reality you see all around you.
Cheers!
If your going to fleece christians, might as well do it where the weather is pretty nice. Hallejulia !
Sorry, the comments seems to be posting in all the wrong places....but you know who I'm replying to : )
No...it's actually that you're not quite smart enough to reply where you're supposed to. That fact kind of makes a lot of your arguments hard to take seriously. Not that they were easy to take seriously in the first place.
Then why 'reply'? And we should care about your worthless opinion because.......?
Who's the 'we' you speak of? Is this like the royal 'we', proving you're a delusional patronizing as.shole?
@ tallulah13
~~~~
" I mean, who would even want to make love to a miserable, cynical, sorry excuse for a human being, like the ones posting on this forum?"
Thanks for proving my point, you poor thing. Oh, yeah...I AM SPECIAL, no need to 'feel' it, and thank you for noticing.
Someone is wearing their special jacka.ss outfit today....
It's obvious you are attracted to my wisdom.
That's how you define attraction? Damn, you must have a lot of restraining orders.
Dear Florida Evangelicals, (for posting on your golf carts)
A 21st century prayer just for you:
The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
Amen!
Reality,
lol... your goal of stirring the pot might be achieved. we'll see...
oh, btw, can you prove there is NOT a God? Have you ever taken the time to look into the validity behind the claims of the Bible (not the rituals of the Catholic church, which are not Biblical)? No...?
Well, many have. One such skeptic, is an Attorney who worked for the Chicago Tribune. He was so fed up with the stories of Christ, Christianity, etc... he put his investigative skills to work and set out to disprove it all with facts, figures, probabilities, interviewed experts from around the world, etc... Oh, how he hated this Christian stuff. Long story short, the evidence overwhelmed him....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMKOUzYeZ6A
can you prove there is NOT a God?
We don't have too... Prove that Bertrum Russells' Teacup is NOT orbiting in Deep Space. or just google Russel's teacup.
Keep knocking their softball arguments out of the park!
By the way, there's also a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto. I'm sure that there is, because you can't prove that there isn't.
So, watch just a short bit of that video link I posted. Many have said it takes more faith to believe we evolved from nothing and everything happened by accident/big bang, than it does to believe in Intelligent Design. Science has fought this for years of course, because if there is a God, then now you have to look at the implications of that. Ooops.
The Dr./Scientist who cracked the Human Genome code lays out evidence in extreme details that only Scientists with PHD's could grasp (parts of it anyway). It's really pretty exciting fellas... check out some of this stuff. Who cares if you think it's all a bunch of BS, and Christians are idiots, etc... keep your mind and heart open...study the facts as Lee Strobel did (the attorney from the Chicago Tribune mentioned above). Never know what will happen yo! ; )
Listening,
Lee Strobel is not an attorney – he has some kind of degree in "Law Studies" and was a reporter in the Law section of the Trib.
Listening,
You need to take a course in Physics. That old "nothing comes from nothing" crap has been debunked by Quantum Physics.
The total energy of the universe is zero, (0). -1+1=0. (Gravity can have a negative energy). No one says it was an "accident". You really are an uneducated idiot.
pssst,
partially true, but good try. Oh, and... good night. 🙂
@Listening, I watched about 20 minutes of the movie that you have been recommending tonight. It's very well made, but at least in the portion that I watched, I didn't see anything discussed, that I haven't heard from Christians hundreds of times over the years.
I'm 57 years old, and used to be a Christian, and left because it made no sense. I've been to dozens of churches, and have studied religion for decades. I've "heard it all" and then some. And I must tell you, in no uncertain terms, that this movie says absolutely nothing new, at least nothing I haven't heard and considered quite thoroughly myself, many, many times before. It's certainly constructed in a very persuasive format, and I can see how it could really impress someone who hasn't already been exposed to the arguments that it contains. But I'm not one of them.
I remain an atheist, because I've yet to be convinced otherwise.
Timmy,
Just when i was about to go to bed... sheez... lol.
You are right, I'd love a course in physics... agian, aside from what I learned in college. So, you mean to tell me you believe you are here today due to a lightening bolt that hit a pond and triggered a life form, some millions of years ago? How depressing is that? You need some HOPE in your cheerios brutha!
Call it all an "accident", "big bang", whatever....wait...ooops, i left out the THEORY in "Big Bang"... my bad. It's getting late. There are so many unanswered questions, but many a theory. You know, a guy much smarter than me like the guy, Dr.Collins, who cracked the Human Genome code, could speak more on this, but really now... so many Q's that science only can theorize about Timmy.
What are some examples of information being added to a genome through mutations? How did the nano-machines in the cells originate? How did living things make the jump from single-celled to multi-celled forms and why is there no fossil record of this at all? If Evolution were valid, there should be a countless number, millions or billions of transitional fossils. Why are they missing and why is there not one indisputable example of a transitional form?
So many quesitons bro, but this is one I challenge you to think about while your head is on your pillow tonight...
What is your motivation for wanting Evolution to be fact? 🙂
Listening,
Yep, we should have stopped with: "an angry god in that volcano causes it to erupt" and "an angry god shoots lightning bolts down at us" and "dipping a live dove in the blood of a dead dove cures leprosy". "Accept these truths, shut up and go back to your goat-tending."
EnjaySea,
Hey brother, I love your honesty. Don't see enough of that these days. I hear ya man, the arguments get old once you've heard them all. Yea, that movie might be more like an intro. I think for meat and potatos, you ought to look at the actual book THE CASE FOR CHRIST, that Lee Strobel wrote. It's almost information overload in parts, but he really was digging deep to dispel so much of the same ol stories he's heard over the years from Christians. I mean, he interviews people from Jesus part of the world, non-believers, medical doctors (he wanted to dispel some issues with Christ's death and ressurection,e tc...)
But really, the bottom line that I'll take the most criticism for, is that it boils down to your faith at some point. While science works very hard to convince that all quesitons have been answered, or darn close, you still need an element of faith to believe the many "theories" out there. I mean, why is there so much design in the core elements of our existance? At some point, it becomes a heart issue. It's unexplainable, but the people who have simply let go and honestly said "God, I have so many doubts, man. So many! Yet, my heart of hearts tells me you are real. It tells me there is meaning to my existance beyond what holes science leaves. Lord take my doubts, and give me peace" Honesty like that... wow... he does wonders with it. Seen many lives changed, who didn't have all the answers. They simply turned it over to the Lord and he gave them a quiet peace about it all.... and along with that came confidence.
I mean, look back bro to Jesus time. Thomas saw Jesus do some amazing stuff with his own eyes, yet still had doubts. If the Bible was a fairy tale book, wouldn't they try to hide the fact that people had their doubt?. Instead, God wanted us to see that we are human, and fallen, and naturally doubtful as a poeple, yet he still changed lives. How do we know this? Well, in part because how many would be willing to die for lunatic, or a liar? All of his disciples who saw Jesus post-ressurection, gave their lives based on what they had seen. What idiots, right? Or... hmmmm.... maybe they had seen something so powerful that their very lives paled in comparison.
Keep struggling EnjaySea. Keep being honest with your doubts and questions, keep wrestling. God said if you search with all your heart, he will let himself be found. Question is, how much is "all your heart"??? ONly you know that one bro.
One last thing... the fact that you and so many other are on this site questioning, and in many cases ridiculing, those of faith. Why waste the time. It's like if you knew a group of people who believed that we never walked on the moon. Would you even waste your time arguing with them? People are here because there is something deep down inside us all that says, I KNOW THERE IS MORE TO THIS LIFE THAN THIS. It's that God Shaped Vacuum that Pascal said is in the heart of everyman.
Night. 🙂
Listening,
Regarding Strobel's "The Case for Christ":
"The market Strobel's book was written for, is clear: it is written for the Christian evangelical market. It is really preaching to the choir; it is so blatantly one-sided that I can't imagine any thinking skeptic being taken in by it, and I'm sure that Strobel realized that. But he's not selling the book to skeptics. He's selling it to Christians who either want to reinforce their faith, or think they're going to convince their skeptic friends with it."
"It is often claimed by the proponents of this book that the author wrote it when he was an atheist, and was undergoing the conversion process. This is not true. From a careful reading (see the last two paragraphs at the bottom of page 14), he makes it quite clear that he wrote it as a fully committed Christian"
Read an extensively detailed commentary on this book at:
http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm
If you attended the funeral of someone you love, would you cry? What would be the purpose, professor? What does an atheistic sympathy card say? "The End"? The fact that we can love and grieve is proof that there is more to life than a pointless chemical compound that "thinks" and "feels" whatever those things mean. If you don't believe in God, fine, but there is no point in beating up people who do.
@Listening – "What are some examples of information being added to a genome through mutations? How did the nano-machines in the cells originate? How did living things make the jump from single-celled to multi-celled forms and why is there no fossil record of this at all? If Evolution were valid, there should be a countless number, millions or billions of transitional fossils. Why are they missing and why is there not one indisputable example of a transitional form?"
This is a standard litany of ID/creationist arguments and all of them fail. Go take a look at talkorigins.org if you're actually interested. P.S. Francis Collins, the geneticist you've been referring to, is a theistic evolutionist, i.e. he accepts evolution as true.
@Chuck – I don't come here to "beat up" on people of faith. I come here to marvel at the astounding capacity of folks who demonstrably know nothing about the topics they engage upon argue with unfounded conviction because they believe their holy book trumps actual evidence.
What we do know: (from the fields of astrophysics, nuclear physics, geology and the history of religion)
1. The Sun will burn out in 3-5 billion years so we have a time frame.
2. Asteroids continue to circle us in the nearby asteroid belt.
3. One wayward rock and it is all over in a blast of permanent winter.
4. There are enough nuclear weapons to do the same job.
5. Most contemporary NT exegetes do not believe in the Second Coming so apparently there is no concern about JC coming back on an asteroid or cloud of raptors/rapture.
6. All stars will eventually extinguish as there is a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the universe. When this happens (100 trillion years?), the universe will go dark. If it does not collapse and recycle, the universe will end.
7. Super, dormant volcanoes off the coast of Africa and under Yellowstone Park could explode catalytically at any time ending life on Earth.
Bottom line: our apocalypse will start between now and 3-5 billion CE. The universe apocalypse, 100 trillion years?
If Mitt were a Christian, he would have gotten the nomination last time around, and maybe have even beaten Iraq Hussein Osama. Confirmed by Gallop polling. When quesitoned about his Mormon beliefs, Mitt did not defend his faith, it's highly strange and unbiblical doctrine, it's cult-like practices, etc.... no, he simply said "it is my father's father's religion.."
Ok... that's real convincing there Mitt. Think for yourself buddy. Your business ability is incredible, but your ability to reason and examin your personal faith is most disconcerning. Serioulsy, take a look at the life of Joe, the founder of LDS. What he was involved in and accused of. Look at the lack of any historical & archeological evidence to support LDS. Open your eyes brother?!
"it’s highly strange and unbiblical doctrine, it’s cult-like practices, etc."...uh, sounds like Christianity. The bible is just babble anyway.
David, do some home work brother. Christianity NOT= Mormonism. Vastly different doctrine. Look up the history of your name as well. Straight from the Bible, David is, so you are already off to a great start! 🙂
Hmmm...picture of Dr House on an acid trip?
@wisdom4u2, I'm glad you're here too. The internet is severely lacking in people who are capable of making judgments about people's nature without ever having met them. May Santa Clause shine his loving light upon thee.
Brampt
Serioulsy...Are you a Christian??? Cause you act like someone that doesnt know God??
~~~~
Excuse me...LOL...why are you and the other clown taking err'thang so seriously?
I don't know you, nor do I want to!
And the only judgment that I'm making is that you and the other clown are a ss w ipes!!
Why are you so concern with what I believe?
You goof balls are the ones judging; I just said why be unequally yoked, Jesus said ‘DON’T do it!!!
And it’s ‘Seriously’ and ‘doesn’t’ smarty pants : )
LOL
LOL! Hit a bunch of nerves....did I? It's not my fault you all lack wisdom : )
Your wisdom is kind of lacking, 'wisdom'. Looks more like the BS of a pompous jacka.ss.
Remember the new slogan of SC, we picked the serial adulterer from "we picked the president."
'fraid so. Don't forget he wants to build a base on the moon, and have America claim it as a state!
LOL!!! Did y'all check this out?
Brampt
First you sing song or pray to Jesus, now you start showing hatred to Atheists?? Are you a true Christian?? Jesus never teached us Christians to show hatred to anyone, we should be an example of love for people. Galatians 6:10 "let us do good to all people" Who are you to judge? What kind of Christian are you?? Thats what your pastor teach you in church???
So, is this not judging? LOL! What a dumb Hypocrite!
Serioulsy...Are you a Christian??? Cause you act like someone that doesnt know God??
Jesus sho nuf teached ya'll some real good grammar.
People had better stop worrying about what religion a candidate is and start worrying about the condition of the economy and jobs. Mitt Romney knows economics and how to turn the country around. Anybody who can earn 20 million a year may be able to get the country rolling again.
By the way, the latest DNA research points to the Book of Mormon as being true. See DNAevidenceforBookofMormongeography.com
Any site that shows DNA proof for the Book of Mormon is a fake site. DNA has confirmed earlier people migrations from the west. The book of Mormon was the combination of an unpublished novel of the early 1800s and biblical language stolen from Ezekiel. Joseph Smith has long been identified as a con man, language fraud and petty criminal.
People specially Christians should start looking to Gods Kingdom like something real that will make big beneficial changes to earth soon...not participate in politics. Its just not Christian...I never saw in the bible were Christ or the first christians participated in politics...
Joseph Smith was a proven liar. He gave a translation of an Egyptian text before we decoded hieroglyphics, which was later proven to be a complete fabrication on his part. He also claimed to have translated some later plates that were left in a fake gravesite, where the perpetrators of the hoax admitted that the gravesite and the plates were a hoax.
Joseph Smith was a known con man, thief and liar. He invented the entire religion to secure himself power, influence, money, and wives. I don't believe one single word that ever came out of that man's mouth, let alone his fictional Book of Mormon.
Terry, you are right. Mitt is the man,when it comes to money. However, you can't help but be concerned about his ability to reason and make rational decisions when it comes to faith. I'm not here to bash LDS, rather, restate what so many already see so clearly, and history has shown, and many comments reflect here today. That is, that Mormonism has too many holes, inconsistensies, cult-ish practices within the temple, unsubstantiated historical/archeological data, etc... to be taken seriously. Yes, they are big and powerful, but keep in mind that LDS'ers are REQUIRED to give at least 10% $$ to the church. Over the years, it has used this income to change the book of Mormon over 1,000 times (ooops, must not have been inspired by God), to propogate (i.e. "I'm a Mormon" commercials), etc... tired of typing, so stopping there, yo!
Listening: ""I'm a Mormon" commercials"
Heh. You are a budding skeptic. How about if you picture the ad campaigns that PR expert, Paul of Tarsus, would put on today... "I was knocked of my horse by "God/Jesus." Hear me! Hear me! Follow my new and improved Judaism. I guarantee it."
Only a person who have had a complete lobotomy, or is just totally desperate, would choose an Atheist for a mate. I mean, who would even want to make love to a miserable, cynical, sorry excuse for a human being, like the ones posting on this forum? Ewwwww…..I wouldn’t want to be in their company, even if I was one of their family members. Their poor families…and pets! Sad ; (
Yes, people that believe in Santa Clause are truly better human beings than people who don't. Great logic.
First you sing song or pray to Jesus, now you start showing hatred to Atheists?? Are you a true Christian?? Jesus never teached us Christians to show hatred to anyone, we should be an example of love for people. Galatians 6:10 "let us do good to all people" Who are you to judge? What kind of Christian are you?? Thats what your pastor teach you in church???
Now you see what I mean! ashrakay is so miserable and cynical, and Brampt, who is a self proclaimed fake Christian, has the nerve to try and accuse me of hatred. I don't hate anyone....but I can choose to NOT be around them....there's a BIG difference there. I still can’t see having one ’mate’, and that is my choice!!! Duhhh
*for a mate*
it would be great if you would choose not to be around us, and go away forever.
Lol
it would be great if you would choose not to be around us, and go away forever.
~~~~
Why don't you just get off this forum and go to where your kind roam....it's just that simple.
wisdom4u2 I'm glad you're here. There's been enough thin stuff going around. May God bless you.
@wisdom4u2
What a silly post. It is obvious that you really know nothing about atheists, but are willing to lie to make yourself feel special. Why is it that people who call themselves "wise" are so often the greatest fools?
That dumba.ss, blanket, idiot statement is supposed to make you feel superior, right? This is assuming you can get anyone to fck you, at all.
Belief doesn't make a person better, @wisdom(?). Critical thinking however, can make a person more thoughtful, and by extension, more kind and considerate of others. You might want to look into that.
EnjaySea
~~~~~
Why would I even consider looking up anything you have to say?.....those are 'your' beliefs, not mine. We do not all believe as you do….now look that up, Control Freak!
You need to change your name to dumba.ss4u2.
"Wisdom" has quite a bit if nerve calling someone else a 'control freak", when it's the X-tians and the Muslims, the evangelicals, the Qu'ran spouting idiots who want us ALL to live under "god's law". Sounds like serious control issues to me. Any 'deity' who commads we worship praise exhault and sacrifice for 'it' is not worthy of ANY of those things. You X-tians are the control freaks. How many Atheists go door-to-door to "recruit"? Go on tv and beg for money? Kill others because 'god' told them to and they'll get their reward in an afterlife? Atheists don't want to control your life, we want you to LIVE your life, just don't make your life MY life.
Who was that Christian who forced u to give him money, to convert, or imposed his life on urs? Essential to Christianity is love which is the proof of faith. This makes force an unacceptable method of proselytizing. If we've committed such crimes towards u then please forgive us. I love u as myself.
Wow, hands down, Wisdom4u2, you are the most angry and abusive Christian I've ever seen in these discussions. Is that the holy spirit working through you?
Hmm. Did u evolve? I don't see any difference between u insulting them n their reply. The only difference is that they know the difference between a scientific theory like Evolution and a fact.
@Nii Croffie, "Who was that Christian who fo.rced u to give him money, to convert, or imposed his life on urs?" His name was Jesus when he was promoting his mandate of believe in god or s.uffer et.ernal da.m.nation...
@Nii Croffie, foll.owed by Pa.ul who was the first to initiate t.ithing in the christian church.
GREETINGS CHILDREN. I AM VERY PROUD OF THE CHAOS YOU HAVE MANAGED TO STIR UP. VERY IMPRESSIVE.
I HAVE ELECTED TO JOIN YOU TONIGHT FOR I HAVE BIG NEWS AND UNLIKE YOUR GOD, I LOVE THE INTERNET AND MODERN TECHNOLOGY. CHRISTIANS, WHILE YOU BLOW THE DUST OF YOUR BIBLES I HAVE CREATED THE INTERNET AND SOCIAL NETWORKING. THE ENTIRE WORLD IN NOW UNDER MY SCRUTINY.
SO WHAT NEWS? THE AZTECS WERE NOT ONLY SMART, THEY WERE RIGHT. THIS IS IT SPORTS FANS. PACK YOUR BAGS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL TAKING A LITTLE TRIP TO PARADISE THIS YEAR. BUT NOW FOR YOU CHRISTIANS. YOU BET ON THE WRONG HORSE, I WILL ENJOY YOUR COMPANY IN HELL.
SEE YOU SOON,
LUCIFER
You are completely uninteresting and completely unready to meet the real thing "Lucifer".
If you were who you say you are and had that information you would be trembling with fear to the point of being unable to function
I CAN OBSERVE MY HOLY PERSONIFICATION IN THE MIRROR. I AM IMMORTAL. I AM PERFECT. YOU ARE BUT A BUG. FOLLOW OR DIE TINY ONE.
ME TREMBLE? YOU WILL BE MY FIRST MEAL.
Luci! Grab a minion and ask about the capslock key.
Prayer changes things
Speaking the Truth in love
God is love
Prayer changes things
PRAY TO ME AND YOU WILL FIND TRUTH AND SALVATION! DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY GOD! BLESS YOU MY CHILD.
LUCIFER
demon attaches itself to a dead soul and vomits its sick disease onto these blogs
Please look on ebay and see if anybody has wit for sale.
Prayer changes things
Pray to the Lord your God and to God only
There is no other god before God
It is written
Prayer changes things
This guy pastes this exact comment in every blog in every page or so. Ignore it. Everyone has prayed numerous times that he would stop but he persists which proves that prayer does – not work.
Prayer gave me arthritis! You a.ssholes.
If prayer actually changed things, Christians wouldn’t need to by insurance
Prayer is like wax fruit. It looks ok at a distance; but, closer inspection reveals it’s worthless
Organically – Religion is the biggest scam! I agree with you that FALSE RELIGION is a really big scam. Read the gospels, and the hole new testament and you will find that non of these called Christians accomplish with the requirements to be called Christians...except for one in between many. And that one is not popular in between people were you live and world wide...Just like Jesus and his disciple werent popular in the ancient world. The rest of the called "Christians" are a really bad imitation of what it was the actual real Christians!
Jonathan – In what way have YOU, taken his cross and follow him??
self denial, you must deny yourself then take up the cross and follow Him. Daily
deny yourself of what? Ice Cream?
Follow him where? Follow who?
deny yourself your own sin nature, following Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah. Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.
What the f_ is my "own sin nature"?
Your sin nature is who you really are outside of Christ
Just sayin
Hey, are you high? Drunk? Would the good Lord approve??
whattya mean, outside of christ? I was in my mother's womb once, but inside christ?
try not to be more of a moron than you already are
Hey! Who wants to trade "Sin Natures"? This is gonna be great!
just sayin is right. Your sinful nature is your absolute inability to stand up and meet the moral standard set by God. You cannot even live up to any moral standard you set up for yourself. You are made of straw. Face it. Get up up and be what God wants you to be. Christ is there for you.
just sayin
Well if you would just explain yourself maybe we could get edge-u-cateed.
And what is god's moral standard? Be created by god with original sin and then told if you don't cure yourself of it you go to hell for eternity (but he loves you, as G.C. would say).
go4it feigned ignorance does not become you. You know what the absolute moral standard is. It's been staring at you all your life. You're amazing. You know what to do, but you just won't do it. "Tell me again why I should believe in your sky fairy!" Dumb*a*ss. Christ wants to save your life.
YOU LOOK FOR GOD'S MORAL STANDING? HE ALREADY TOLD YOU. READ THE OLD TESTAMENT YOU FOOLS. I STAND ALONE AS THE BEACON OF YOUR SALVATION!
SATAN IS NOT EVIL MY CHILDREN. DO NOT BE DECEIVED. I AM BUT AN ANGEL THAT GOD PUNISHED. GOD'S ARRAGANCE CANNOT BE PERMITTED!
BLESS YOU ALL,
LUCIFER
IDK, you guys. If Jesus comes back and all he sees is all these crosses? I don't think his first thought is going to be 'how great, look at all the people who took my words and sacrifice to heart'. It's going to be "SHT I AM OUT OF HERE."
@Observer:” You cannot even live up to any moral standard you set up for yourself”
Typical self righteous Christian, declaring he knows the hearts and minds of all men. Now as you’re a Christian I can understand your inability to live up to any kind of standards; but, don’t judge the rest of the world by your sorry self