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February 3rd, 2012
04:37 AM ET
Belief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Friday, February 3
By Dan Merica, CNN Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories. From the Blog:  Papal tweets. CNN: The pope’s on Twitter? 10 unlikely tweeters CNN: Obama reflects on faith in prayer breakfast speech
 President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama bow their heads in prayer at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington. CNN: Politics and Prayers Tweet of the Day: From @RDispatches: Is Romney Gaining Ground among White Evangelical Voters?: Florida results suggest Christian voters may be coming... bit.ly/zo1YSy Enlightening Reads: Religion News Service: “Stories From Another World”: Vatican Organizes Science Exhibition in Pisa The Christian Post: Creators of ‘Real Housewives of Atlanta’ to Produce ‘Preacher Wives’ Global Catholic Network: Pope to urge Mexico toward greater unity Relevant Magazine: “Let God Write Your Love Story” Quote of the Day:
Dan Cox, research director at the Public Religion Research Institute, said this about white mainline Protestants. According to his groups poll, this demographic is split between President Obama and the Republican challengers. Today’s Opinion: The Atlantic: Singling Out Islam: Newt Gingrich’s Pandering Attacks Join the conversation…  Salome kisses the head of John the Baptist. A play based on the biblical story is getting a new translation. CNN: A head on a silver platter – rethinking John the Baptist and Oscar Wilde
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  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Ladies! Yes, there IS a glass ceiling; there's no denying it. However, there are ways to get ahead without ANYONE else's help! The ONLY way this can happen is if YOU take the first step! Nobody is going to do it FOR you.
Google the terms "Cash Simple Stock" and click on the top non-ad site in the search results. Go STRAIGHT to the Penny' Stock section to find out how YOU can take better control of YOUR life!
NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNLESS YOU DO IT YOURSELF!
_______________________________________________________________
SPAM Alert – TROLL
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the LORD
for the display of his splendor.
CNNBelief is having a hard time coming up with anything relevant. Most of the posts are not about belief but about politics, law enforcement or Irish playwrites... nothing relevant to January 2012. The only current event that is making the news (other than the presidential campaign - which is dull) is the economy and jobs.) The "occupy" thing was a flop - homeless alchy's being transported around on busses to annoy different cities.
Don't the Obamas look peaceful when they're asleep?
No
Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things
"Prayer changes things"
-The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.-
"Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things"
A new study shows that many devout Americans know less about religion than do atheists. To some observers, it suggests a shallowness of faith.
I'm curious what "other living things" athiesm is not healthy for.
@lunchbreaker: Cancer cells.
Do not waste another second of your life on this loser. Ignore with extreme prejudice.
ALL other living things, ALL the rest of creation as well
I like the idea of prayer.
Alfred E Neuman = Prayer changes things=just sayin = Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things
You are contributing nothing to this blog except for some immature trolling. Your constant posting is really showing us you suffer from low self esteem issues and abusive behaviour. Why don't you look up the reasons for your continued need to troll.
Why don't you look into your need to hide behind dots? Ever hear of freedom of speech. If i agree with a post I am free to say so. Don't like it? North Korea ain't full yet.
Thank you for showing more of your bullying behaviour.
?
This post appears several times a day in most lists. Must be produced by a soul-less robot. Or someone who only knows a few words and thoughts.
Or someone with a deep personal commitment to Godly prayer for all mankind.
"Or someone with a deep personal commitment to Godly prayer for all mankind."
No, you are a TROLL and are only bringing disgust through annoyance.
How about this argument:
Assming the Bible is true, at one point the Earth was completely flooded. That indicates one global ocean, meaning all fresh water and salt water are mixed together. By volume alone that would make a global salt water ocean. As a result all freshwater fish would have died. Being that there are freshwater fish present today either the flood did not happen or salt water fish can evolve into fresh water fish. Or I suppose the Ark warped space ,seeing though the dimensions are clearly stated in the Bible there was room for a very large aquarium.
nice question – there was indeed a global ocean in earths history and it was salt water – according to modern science when the plates moved and enclosed land creating a land locked ocean which over time turn to fresh water by leaking the salt into the bedrock....or something like that – i have rough understanding.
Noah had a TARDIS ark.
Any other doubts or questions you may have can be explained away by repeating the mantra "goddidit".
Prayer changes things.
"Life and death, light and darkness, hope and despair. The rift was created, and on that day, the Ori were born. But the hatred of those who strayed from the true path festered and bloomed in the dark corners of the Avernakis to which they have been cast! And consumed by this hatred, they poisoned all they touched, bringing death, darkness and despair. And the souls of their victims knew no peace, until the Ori came and whispered to them: 'Sleep, for the end draws near!' And on that day all will rejoice, when the Ori come and lay them low."
"Hallowed are we; hallowed are the Ori."
No one can tell you what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill"
“Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You.” ~Dr. Suess
Thanks for the input fred, here is a revised version:
All theological debates can eventually be broken down to the fact that there are only 2 possibilities to the existance of the universe.
1. Stuff has always been here
2. God has always been here, and God created stuff.
Both arguments are equally possible. Both recquire something to have "just existed", whether that thing be a living diety or inanamite stuff. However Occam's, loosely translated, states "from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible." Statement 1 only makes 1 assumption, while statement 2 makes 2 assumptions. Therefore statement 1 is more statisticall likely. Of course that's just statistics, it is possible that the less likely statement is the correct one, just LESS likely.
In the case of (1), being, logic and order have to be part of "stuff" for anything to proceed and must "predate" the rest of "stuff". If I assert that these are aspects of God, then (1) and (2) begin to look alike.
That's another point. For God to exist, he would exist some place, which would be the universe. So really for both arguments the univers has always existed. The only Question is if there is a God in it. NOw the real fun begins if you want to debate the word "place".
@Brad – you seem to be saying that if from your perspective God = stuff then true, however that is only if the God or "stuff" needs to take no further action and that just by the stuff's existence the cycle of the universe was given power. Theists want to as-sign a personality, intent and expectations to the stuff which then changes it from a something to a someone, and for some reason they think they know who the someone is and that the someone knows who they are which means the tiny speck of carbon we are in relation to the almost limitless amounts of matter in the universe must be the most important specks of carbon in the universe. And that just seems to be a pretty haughty, self absorbed, ignorant and even dangerous belief.
luchbreaker-
Well, only if God exists only in the restricted sense that things exist. Consider Mach's principle and the concept of a vacuum. If there are no things, then space has no good definition. There is no "place". But do the concepts of being, logic and order exist if no things exist?
Godpot-
I'd like to address that last bit. We could be no more significant than any other speck of matter in the Universe and at the same time no less important than we believers think we are. People only guess at limitations on God – anthropomorphize God, usually.
"People only guess at limitations on God" People only guess at the existence of God.
"We could be no more significant than any other speck of matter in the Universe and at the same time no less important than we believers think we are." No less important than you think you are? Either you are saying that all life, all matter is equal in the eyes of your God, even the sparrow as the bible mentions, which would then mean you have no special position before the creator, or you are saying you are as important as you think you are but that everything else is important to, we just don't have enough time to worry about anything but ourselves. Either way, it is a selfish and ignorant life style that exists only at the expense of others.
Interesting question Brad. Well, a concept is something that is concieved. It requires a conscience mind to concieve a concept. I imagine that you mean "being" as self awareness, which also requires a conscience being. Logic requires if then variations of a,b,c,... If there are no a's b's or c's then how can there be logic? I'm not claiming I actually know what I'm talking about, just throwing out ideas.
lunchbreaker-
Actually it's more like: Do the rules of the game exist before the game does and before we begin to play the game? Hard to get at, but maybe that's close.
Brad, I gotcha now. As far as that question, I'm stumped. On the purely materialistic side, physicists have been arguong for quite sometime whether the laws of physics existed before or came into existence at the same time as "stuff" (new drinking game: take a drink everytime the word "stuff appears on the board"). As for the spiritual or God side of things, i guess that would be up to Him.
A materialist cannot see what he believer sees yet the believer can see what the materialist sees.
that could be re-written as:
A sane person cannot see the halucinations a skitzophrenic person is having.
I'm about to give a talk, so I have to get ready but thanks GodPot and lunchbreaker.
well thats no fair!!! he should call the man by his man with his t!tle – which is like it is for a reason, the other saul is of more importance....
anyway, the dudes name was saul of tarsus then paul the follower – sry fred if i jumped on that one a tad too quick. next, when discussing a name that appears more then once for more then one person, be clear.
This conversation is super interesting (sarcasm), and I'm sure it makes you both feel very smart and philosophical but you guys have a way of "philosophizing" without facing the main questions that effect your belief. Regardless of whether there was 1-a god, then something, or 2-something..... NONE of this addresses the most important question. You are starting at the point of assuming a god is a logical thought. You are essentially always skirting around the issue. There is no proof for a god and even if there were proof of "something" that created the universe, why must you presume to worship it? I ask this, because THIS is the practical, real-life application about what we are talking about, here. You can pretend to philosophize about pointless matters while avoiding the important arguments, but it isn't serving any practical purpose.
.....and "Lunch"... posted:
"A materialist cannot see what the believer sees yet the believer can see what the materialist sees.
that could be re-written as:
A sane person cannot see the halucinations a skitzophrenic person is having."
This is total false logic and an illogical analogy.
There is nothing that the believer SEES. If there was something to SEE, the materialist would see it too, and likely would believe it. That is kind of the point. Believers like to avoid the real issue of evidence but they like to use words like "see" to imply that there is some sort of empirical proof, when really, they mean "believe". It all comes down to faith and belief and they can't back that. The believer can SEE what the materialist sees (like the voluminous amount of evolutionary evidence), but he either refuses to believe what he sees, or he doesn't UNDERSTAND it, and so discounts it. And the last statement about a schizophrenic (note the spelling)..... No, of course a sane person cannot see the hallucinations of anyone, nor can a schizophrenic see the hallucinations of another schizophrenic..... That makes no sense whatsoever.... But if you like to use it to fool unintelligent suckers, then more power to you. To all of us who can decipher logic, you sound like an idiot.
Something to think about:
All theological debates can eventually be broken down to the fact that there are only 2 possibilities to the existance of the universe.
1. In the beginning there was stuff
2. In the beginning there was God, and God created stuff.
Both arguments are equally possible. Both recquire something to have "just existed", whether that thing be a living diety or inanamite stuff. However Occam's, loosely translated, states "from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible." Statement 1 only makes 1 assumption, while statement 2 makes 2 assumptions. Therefore statement 1 is more statisticall likely. Of course that's just statistics, it is possible that the less likely statement is the correct one, just LESS likely.
correction: that is "Occam's Razor"
If there was stuff in the beginning then the universe has no beginning. It is impossible to have a infinite beginning and a finite universe. We know that the universe is finite thus infinite stuff in the beginning can be eliminated from discussion. This means postion 2 is the only possible solution for your example.
@fred , lunch never said a thing about the universe being finite....all that was stated was the word "beginning"...the only conclusion one can draw from such a word is that there is also an end. But i am suprised at your ability to use your head logically. After all the conversations we have had, i was beginning to think that was am impossibilty for you...bravo. But your conclusions are still based on an @ssumption that god is real...it could have been anything that created something and then died afterwards – that by definition is not a god but rather a living being – perhaps from another dimension which was already created in a similiar fashion.
just an idea.
I would think that if a living being were able to create the whole universe that it would probably be immortal. But no believer really knows that much about what God actually is. He may be invisible, he may be a giant man living in the sky, he may be an alien, etc.
poet
Oh, right I showed up late and missed the beginning, as usual, thanks
Looking at the numbers 90% + of humanity believes there is something outside of what is known and provable. I ride with a partially blind guy on occasion as he needs an escort. He tells me how he does not see the blind spots because the doc told him the brain fills in gaps to make sense of its surroundings. I think the same is true with in the beginning and the afterlife. Atheists have filled gap with we don’t know but given an infinite number of years will figure out the beginning. What is puzzling is an atheist being confident that in the end there is nothingness (and some have even described that void to me). In the beginning there is faith that something of the unknown will be resolved and in the end faith that there never was anything to resolve in the first place. As a Christian I fill the gap with God and notice a very small percentage of Christians actually follow the God they choose. In the Bible the main story line being that man rejects God, never follows the God they believe in then when God shows up as man God gets crucified. Muslims at least cut your head off if you don't follow the faith.
One thing about atheists at least they follow their faith. That faith seems every bit as strong as others who actually follow their faith.
The main point I would like thiests to get is how pointless it is to use the "1st mover argument". Thiests seem to believe that simply asking "then where did the universe come from?" equalls a victorious debate, even though an equally valid question is "where did God come from?" Niether of these questions prove a single thing. That's what I find funny about the argument. It gives creedence to both arguments, but fundies still get there drawers in a wad over it.
I think the reason theists do argue this point is to argue that it is not as ridiculous to think that a god created the universe as atheists often say it is. A plausible argument can be made that the universe had a creator.
J.W
We are like the atheist in that we only know pieces of the puzzle and form our world view based on what we know. I have put together the puzzle so that God has the attributes of what was revealed in the New and Old Testament. Then that is overshadowed by what I have personally witnessed in my life which forms an image. Someone asked me onetime to create a book cover that reflected the image of God. Can't be done, we could only make graphic representations of known attributes. When God walked in the Garden with Adam I don't think he left footprints.
I agree fred. That is why it is important to learn everything that you can. There may be more to God than what is in the Bible. Perhaps even other religions can teach us about God.
The universe is not finite, it is infinite. Also it has been proposed that time is not linear, but circular. Therefore there is no "begining" and no "end." Just as observed on a micro scale here on earth there is a circular "cycle" of life, the same is most likely true of the universe on a very macro scale. I believe it even says in the bible that "what once was, will be once again."
That is my 2cents.
@ JW I would never say it is ridiculous to argue God created the Universe, I just think a lot of arguments used are ridiculous, on both sides of course.
lunchbreaker
From the time of antiquity of the Greeks our universe was thought to be unchanging and has always been that way. Then with a Big Bang the secular science community was shocked with what Bible thumpers knew “in the beginning God”. Nothing changed except that now the argument is over the beginning and God vs. stuff. We get our panties in knot because it is knowledge / the pride of man vs. a personal creator we love. Yep back to the Garden if you want to get to the roots and fruits of life’s purpose.
Well said Fred. Debate is no fun without passion, anyway.
to J.W. and fred – i think its rather silly to argue anything as fact if its cleary thought based ( i.e. lacking proof/evidence) when asked about the where did we come from or how the universe (whatever) i always answer with i don't know, but then i pose an idea – i state openly thats its only an idea... if any one of you religions folks would simple agree to the FACT that what you BELIEVE is real is REALLY only an idea until proven(much like evolution) then i would find much more pleasing conversations beyond the realm of atheists...but alas, i am still waiting – i found some but most are imovible in there beliefs that god is real, provable, and most def. not a delusion of the mind!
Lucifer
That is nonsense. The universe cannot be infinite. If I have an infinite number of rocks and give them all to you I have zero rocks. infinity – infinity = 0 Now if I give you every rock but one it is infinity – infinity = 1. Zero is not equal to 1 thus your position is mathmatically impossible. Absurdities result if you have an infinite number of past events.
@J.W
You said, "A plausible argument can be made that the universe had a creator."
I don't think many atheists will deny that there is a possibility that there was a creator. But just because it is possible doesn't mean it's plausible. To be plausible, you'll need to have a rational argument, or better yet, evidence in favor of it. None of the divine creation stories pass that test.
The start of the universe appears to have created spacetime, which includes time and all physical dimensions that we can observe and possibly some we can't. The start of time (and space) creates a barrier for our observations. It prevents us from being able to see or test anything from "before" it. In our universe, there is no "before". But, just because we don't know, and probably will never know, doesn't mean we should just make shit up.
Theists make a claim. I personally consider the claim ridiculous on it's face. I will therefor not waste a minute looking for evidence to support it. I will leave that to the proponents of the claim. But, just because I reject yours, doesn't mean I make a claim myself. I simply don't know.
just to expand on my last post – its the most silly to believe that what is has always been and will remain. This statment @ssumes much about everything but in essence, its not wrong.
i can't argue the argument of a creator, i can only ask for proof which is often thrown back at me for asking but in reality the burden of proof lays with those that believe beyond a doubt that what is IS what was created by said god (s).
Hello fred.
Infinity is not a number. For example, if I have infinitely (and countably) many rocks then I can give you 1 out of every hundred rocks. You will then have infinitely many rocks. Will I have more rocks than you?
Good discussion, guys and/or gals.
I would offer an alternative however, which is 3) none of the above. First, I would speculate that neither stuff, as we know it, nor God was around at "the beginning", but some aspect of nature that we know nothing about, but that is just speculation. I would also say that the only reason that 1 and 2 might be considered equally plausible or possible, is because neither can assigned any kind of realistic or quantifiable possibility or plausibility; we just don't know. And unlike the "God of the Gaps" theory, saying "we don't know" is marking a gap but not filling it in with something else. I still think that saying, "we don't know" is the only honest answer for this question. Perhaps someday we will know, but perhaps not; regardless currently "we don't know."
@fred – "That is nonsense. The universe cannot be infinite." Right, using logic to explain it, makes sense. But what happens when you get to the question of God always existing? Is that not saying God's lifespan is infinite? And if you make allowances for your God to be infinite then why not the universe?
@fred: I can safely say you're not a mathematician.
Sorry, but "god did it" is about as absurd as I can imagine. So I find some irony in your attempt to "school" me in the concept of infinity and can't take anything you say seriously.
poet
Scientifically acceptable evidence for atheist belief that non existence follows life has as much weight as scientifically acceptable evidence that heaven awaits. Atheists are delusional according to your example. Now, take your choice a cold empty non existence or joy, beauty, wonder, eternal love, everlasting life, full awareness of all that God has created in technocolor !
Tell me, if there is such a thing as right and wrong which delusion sounds right?
@fred: You said "scientifically acceptable evidence that heaven awaits"
There's your problem. There is no such thing.
@fred: You also said, "Now, take your choice a cold empty non existence or joy, beauty, wonder, eternal love, everlasting life, full awareness of all that God has created in technocolor !"
I don't get to choose my reality based on what makes me feel better.
@fred – first i will address the use of the term "technocolor" really fred – how old are you.. the last time i saw technocolor i was watching the 7th voyage of sinbad – which i love btw....from the land beyond beyond, from the place past hope and fear, i bid you genie, now apear! love it!!!!
but i didn't state anything example – i stated that the theory of evolution is yet to be proved and so with that i agree that due to that lacking it is equal to the theory of god... the only thing i said which is cemented truth for anything is that we don't know what the real answer is....and by stating ideas as facts serves no real purpose but a selfish one....lets call it an ease-ment on the inner self, the mind can now be at peace with the hope that when i die i get to live yet again...full belief in this is insane without evidence.
and how can you ask "which DELUSION is right?....delusion is not right so no one delusion is any more right then another.
SeanNJ
I beg your pardon, I'll have you know that I am well versed in the Book of Numbers written by Moses !
Correct, mathmaticians can only deal with infinity in the conceptual realm. That is the point infinite past events do not happen in the real world. An infinite universe is in the mind only not a realtiy.
@ nominus, exellent point. I think your going into the terrotory of how we define stuff. Now most poeple when you say "universe" think of our 3 dimensional space consisteing of galaxies and things. The universe is that plus anything else that exists. "Stuff" is simply an oversimplification that while includes matter, time and space, is not limited by these 3 things.
@fred – the book of numbers is indeed referred as one of the books of moses, it wasn't written by him – there is actually (at least in the bible) 5 books of moses – in reality there is i think 25 books of moses – he didn't write them...oral traditions...they were write down in parts, then added together later.
@fred – "Now, take your choice a cold empty non existence or joy, beauty, wonder, eternal love, everlasting life, full awareness of all that God has created in technocolor ! Tell me, if there is such a thing as right and wrong which delusion sounds right?"
I could tell you that spending 20 years in a maximum security prison will fill your days with joy and wonder, they will serve ice cream every day and you get massages every lunch hour and the guards rub your feet every night as they read to you from an adventure book while you drift off to sleep. I could tell you that...
As wonderful as I want it to be for you and as pretty a picture I paint won't make any difference once you get there are realize it's not exactly as I had promised, and the massages weren't quite what you were expecting since it became hard to walk after the first one...
You try to make the point that imagining heaven and angels and joy and happiness is a better choice than accepting the world we have and working hard to improve it without divine aid instead of taking the lazy mans way out which is to wait for God to clean it all up.
Hello all! The snow is making me a little stir crazy.... In any case,
freddy I first have to address your points because they are obviously the craziest of the bunch. I only have one question for you, why do you want to live forever? What makes you believe that living in eternal heaven would never get old, dull or almost a hel.l after eons? Secondly, you imagine a heaven but how do you know what this looks like? When the bibble was written, heaven was obviously a WAY different place as these middle eastern nomads had a very clear idea of what heaven would be like for them which I would expect you and most of civilization now would find repugnant.
As for everyone else, love the thread. I would like to think the big bang originated from a rip in space-time from a separate universe, possibly a theorized "white hole", a gigantic one.
GodPot
My point is if what happens after death is a delusion then what you see reflects who you are and how you are wired. An optimist does not go about saying the sky is falling. A believer sees a loving helping hand. A materialist cannot see beyond self and thus nothing exists after death. A materialist cannot see what he believer sees yet the believer can see what the materialist sees.
As to infinity I did not imply God was infinite and defer to LinCA who well stated we cannot comprehend what came before our time space continum. By the same token if "in the beginning God" simply states God was, it does not imply time as we know it.
@Chuckles: You said, "these middle eastern nomads had a very clear idea of what heaven would be like for them which I would expect you and most of civilization now would find repugnant."
I always imagined it would smell like the sacristy at my church when I was an altar boy: all incensey and whatnot. It just seemed old and musty to me.
"the big bang originated from a rip in space-time from a separate universe, possibly a theorized "white hole", a gigantic one."
There they go again, hijacking the minorities to place their name on everything, even cration. White this, white that, when will it end? And who ever heard of anything "white" being gigantic?...
@Chuckles, ah , we need only mention space and time and you are here...lol.. i agree that it is most likely a big rip/tare in space/time that may have created everything as we now know it... but the evidence is as lacking as that of god...well, only in the sense that THAT IS what happened, becuase we do know of black holes – its the white hole thats a complete theory – but i would like to think that even in space there is balance of some sort and that should go for colors as well – sry for the dumb joke at the end there – couldn't help myself. But yeah, white holes if real spells multi-verse in (ready for the pun) black and white! 🙂
@fred: You said, "My point is if what happens after death is a delusion then what you see reflects who you are and how you are wired."
Well, no. If after death experience is found to be nothing but a delusion, then the naturalist/materialist isn't experiencing any sort of delusion at all; they would happen to be correct, and being optimistic or pessimistic about it doesn't really make any sense.
@Sean
You were an alter boy? Also I would think the wet dream of those people would be a place where they could go around killing non believers, enjoying women, drink, maybe god too..... now that I think about, maybe it wouldn't be THAT different from people today huh?
@GodPot
Apologies, I guess instead of calling them "white holes" we should call them.... non-race specific stuff expelling hole. Is that better?
@Hippy
You got me, I do love space and time (especially time travel, duh!) I would really like to think that there is always a yin and yang and that if there's a black hole that sucks up all this stuff and then spews it out in a separate universe, there would be a gigantic number of multiverses out there. Maybe there's only one non-race specific stuff expelling hole per universe.
Fred
So you can't concieve what happens before our space time continuum, but you know what happens after it?
@Chuckles: You asked, "You were an alter boy?"
Aye. Raised Catholic. Went to Catholic grade school and high school. In grade school, we went to mass every morning before class. The church was right next door.
Serving Sunday masses sucked, especially the Hungarian mass at 10am. The priest seemed to get pretty riled up during his sermons though. In retrospect, he reminded me of Kruschev doing the shoe thing in front of the UN. Doing weddings and funerals were ok. You got tipped better for the weddings, but you'd be excused from class for weekday funerals. Everyone wanted to volunteer for those.
Chuckles
“why do you want to live forever?”
=>I once got stuck in a drain pipe, and when the lights went out the mind does crazy things as I struggled for what seemed like hours unable to move. Perhaps I am just a scairdy cat but I would much prefer the atheist nonexistence delusion or the Christian / Isaiah highway to heaven delusion. I do not want to live forever rather simply never again experience endless cold dark fear, falling in a bottomless pit or emptiness.
“ What makes you believe that living in eternal heaven would never get old, dull or almost a hel.l after eons?”
=>As long as I can remember time was my enemy and so much to do so little time. I do not think our sense of time goes with us. Even here time seems forever or very short depending on what we are doing. Eternity may be a second or minutes we just don’t have a clock.
“ Secondly, you imagine a heaven but how do you know what this looks like?”
=> When God suddenly burst into my life it was like going to Disney World for the first time. I have no idea what it will look like but I am expecting cotton candy at a minimum.
“ I would like to think the big bang originated from a rip in space-time from a separate universe, possibly a theorized "white hole", a gigantic one.”
=>There ya go an eternity hopping from one dimension to the next, endless universes to stick your subconscious mind into. Just for fun you could take the form of a serpent and tell Eve put your hands in the air and back away from the apple. At least in one time dimension we could avoid all that religion that followed.
Whoa I completely lost track of this conversation lol. But I am always open to other ideas. I still have my own ideas right now. But I have changed my mind over a lot of things. I actually used to be very conservative, like a George type person.
"I do not want to live forever rather simply never again experience endless cold dark fear, falling in a bottomless pit or emptiness."
People that don't believe in the existence of a God, don't feel that way, only insecure emotionally handicapped people have those issues.
lunchbreaker
When we go with position 2 "In the beginning God created" and stand in awe at the wonder of it all as Einstein did then my only assumption, based upon that creators character, is that I wouldn't want to miss it for the world!
Greg
You hit it right on the nose, God generally does not seem to save people who believe they have no issues that require saving. I say generally because good old Saul was at his peak slicing up Christians at the beginnings of the Church. He knew the Hebrew God but, not Jesus until knocked off his horse by a bright light.
"You hit it right on the nose, God generally does not seem to save people who believe they have no issues that require saving. "
So Christians are nothing more than a bunch of emotionally insecure losers, no wonder our society is going to shit.
@fred
So I'm a little confused, who said eternity would be a bottomless pit of dark despair? I mean, even hell is supposed to have light from all the fire and what not.
You mention that time has been your enemy and that there are many things you'd like to accomplish, but in heaven what would be left to accomplish? What needs to be done up there that isn't already done AND if you knew you are going to live eternally, then wouldn't that be an equally insidious idea where you could keep putting off things you want to get done in favor of something else?
Personally, knowing I have an expiration date and it's well within 100 years at this point (unless technology unlocks secrets in the genome to prolong life) I feel it's well worth living that life rather than presuming that at one point I'll detach from my earthly existence and spend the remainder of eternity in a knew, unknowable place that's supposed to be the ti.ts but no one can actually pin down what the specifics would be.
Greg
I really cannot speak for other faiths but every Christian I know depends on God to get through this life.
@fred – you said –
" I say generally because good old Saul was at his peak slicing up Christians at the beginnings of the Church. He knew the Hebrew God but, not Jesus until knocked off his horse by a bright light."
ok wow – first lets just start with saul is the predicessor to david, the mythical king david whom jesus is supposedly kin to!!! that states that jesus came after david who was after saul so you need to check those dates my delusional friend.
(recap) in order of life lived – saul, david, soloman, then who cares ---blah blah blah then jesus who is king of nothing but an idea that spread like coke at the docks in the early 1900's!
so, no jesus = no christians = no christian killing.
YOU KNOW, ALLOF THIS IS IN THE BOOK YOU BASED YOUR LIFE ON, YOU'D THINK YOU MIGHT KNOW A THING OR TWO – GUESS NOT!
@hippypoet: Different "Saul." The one fred is talking about changed his name to Paul after his "unfortunate electrical accident," although I think it was probably a brain tumor. Same symptoms.
well thats no fair!!! he should call the man by his man with his t!tle – which is like it is for a reason, the other saul is of more importance....
anyway, the dudes name was saul of tarsus then paul the follower – sry fred if i jumped on that one a tad too quick. next, when discussing a name that appears more then once for more then one person, be clear.
thank you 🙂
Chuckles
The bottomless pit of dark despair is an experience I can relate to whereas I have never been thrown into a lake of fire. I can imagine it is not pleasant but like the worm the Bible speaks of that churns forever I have not experienced it.
“What needs to be done up there that isn't already done”
=>It is a new heaven and a new earth the old is washed away. Nothing needs to be done we just now live in unity with God. Some look back to Genesis and see that God gave Adam animals to name so they plan to be very busy in the garden others hang onto simply worshiping God all day long. It is a hodgepodge for sure as to what we will be doing. The pattern is consistent with Isaiah where generally we will be caught up in some kind of complete awe most of the time.
“equally insidious idea where you could keep putting off things you want to get done”
=>Bible says anything we give up today for the Lord is repaid 100 fold. So there is a tie in between what we did for God here and what we receive in the new heaven and new earth. God gave us the gifts and talents we have here and it looks like God will give us gifts and talents there also.
“I feel it's well worth living that life rather than presuming that at one point I'll detach from my earthly”
=>Some days I would rather take a long bike ride than help someone in the community that really needs it. When I sense that conflict I know it is not in Gods will for me to help the person out. There are no rewards eternal or present for helping someone when your heart is not in it for the right reason. Solomon tried all sorts of life filling endeavors and came up empty concluding that the fear of God is the only thing worth life. Another said what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul.
There are times when I am on a roll things are great and I just happen to be doing the stuff Jesus would have been doing. That does not happen all the time but when you live your life always asking what would Jesus do the goal of personal life fulfillment and Gods plan become one on their own. I cannot see a downside to that.
Hello Guys I happened to join the conversation late, I'd like to make a comment with regards to infinity. Infinity is not the end of the number line, Eternity is. You see the value of infinity is one, the reason being is because infinity has a starting point but no finishing point. When you return to the point of start you begin a new. On the other hand eternity has no start or ending point. What happens is you get to infinity and you go through infinity, such as 1infinity, 2 infinity, 3 infinity, 4infinity .........ect....ect until you get to eternity, because eternity has no starting point or ending point it's value is zero(0). However eternity works in phases and uses these phases as markers in time.
@Fred
I don't think you understand the concept of eternity, if you did, you wouldn't (and I would except 0 people) would be fine with spending an ethereal existence just chatting with other spirits about how great god is forever and ever, that actually sounds about the worst thing ever.
Once you understand the concept of eternity and how your belief system tells you that eternal life is given to just by the simple act of dying you'd understand why living life is way more important than wasting that life on something that most likely doesn't exist.
To elaborate energy was transpose form an eternal state.
kenrick
I thought infinte had a start point and no end point not infinity. Either way you are heading off into ordinal and cardinal infinities of set theory that my Bible fails to discuss. I try and limit myself to that which cannot be proven or disproved so that I am never wrong.......or at least no one know it until they die.
Chuckles
On the other hand if you do the math and divide eternity with God by the 120 years you may live on earth even Pascal would reject that wager.
@ Kenrick I need some help with the above formula because you really cannot divide eternity by a cardinal number however we could fold eternity 7 times and get a good approximation of the disproportionate risk Chuckles takes by living only for today. Yes?
Fred- you see because infinite has a starting point it can be divisible by it self, for example I = Infinite, I / I = 1. So I can only be divisible by it self which will give you a result of one (1). Our number line is set up in such a way that it will always return to a result of 1. AS for eternity because it has no starting or ending point it has to be divisible by something other than it self. For example E=Eternity E / – E = 0.
Fred- it's E divided by negative (-) E which will give you a result of Zero(0).
RE: "Religion News Service: “Stories From Another World”: Vatican Organizes Science Exhibition in Pisa"
Hear! Hear!
I rarely agree with the Vatican on anything, but, if done well, this is wonderful.
Complete scale models of the earth when it was flat. I wonder how thick it will be represented to be?
@fred,
lol, yeah that's why I said, "if done well". The way the article described it though, it sounded promising.
and so i have not but one question i am curious about today....is there a purpose to life?
i think not, i think we are a cosmic fluke, one like that of the wheel of numbers – i'm sure there is life on other planets but we are as flukish as them.
now if you believe this life we are living now to have purpose, what is it? does a purpose initself carry meaning and so a reason to keep on keep'n on? or even with purpose do you find yourself asking why this life instead of that of another time/place/person whatever whatever so on and so forth ect ect..?
i would much prefer a life without all this modern tech, cell phones – hate em ... computers = lazy people....what happened when work become sitting down elsewhere not home surf'n the web with different intent and doing something meaningless to make a buck! i want a farm, a family, some dogs and cats, horses and a few goats with sheep for friends...AND NO PHONE, you wanna talk to me, send me a letter. How beautiful that life would be, meaningful and full of purpose. i am sad now, but i rememeber i just recvd. my tax return and i am happy again – money, the true mind altering drug!!! and again i rant! sry. 🙂
I think the purpose of life is best defined by the definition of life itself. We are living creatures, so the purpose is to live. Simple as that live life. By being alive you are fulfilling lifes purpose. So go out and live and enjoy doing it 🙂
love that answer – but i can 't helpself – i have a lack of control it seems today 🙂
In the shuffling madess
of the locomotive breath,
runs the all-time loser,
headlong to his death.
He feels the piston scraping -
steam breaking on his brow -
old Charlie stole the handle and
the train won't stop going -
no way to slow down.
He sees his children jumping off
at the stations - one by one.
His woman and his best friend -
in bed and having fun.
He's crawling down the corridor
on his hands and knees -
old Charlie stole the handle and
the train won't stop going -
no way to slow down.
He hears the silence howling -
catches angels as they fall.
And the all-time winner
has got him by the balls.
He picks up Gideons Bible -
open at page one -
old Charlie stole the handle and
the train won't stop going -
no way to slow down.
The flute is a heavy metal instrument.
As far as each individual life, I think each person's purpose is to make the world around them a better place any way that they can. As far as life as a whole, that is a little less clear. I would have to think more about that.
The purpose of life is to perpetuate life, from a strictly biological perspective.
Live, breed, die.
Though there are days when I think that the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT) is correct.
"May we live long and die out".
The Welsh would be Irish except that they could not swim.
Ignore that philistine, hippypoet. He's just crass.
you watch yourself!
samson....get him!
Wasn't Sampson on the other side?
yes, he is. I meant that to be "he better watch himself, get him samson" but i was quicker typing then my thought was thinking – lol i left it as was cause i knew most wouldn't have a clue anyway. 🙂 good catch. i almost typed sampson – totally different dude! i believe a slower reaction with a touch of editing may be in order. 🙂 but i like the "on the fly" style...
If it was todays tecno-savvy world would it be get him samsung?
Prayer changes things
@Atheism: once again prayer does nothing!!! oh right it does...it allows innocent children to die; it allows braindead pukes like you and just sayin to appease yourselves by thinking you are doing something when in fact you are being lazy goofs and wasting valuable oxygen that could be used for animals that are not as stupid as the two of you.
Prayer changes things
There is wisdom in prayer
There is wellness in prayer
There is worth in prayer
Prayer changes things
~The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.~
TruthPrevails
You have a very twisted mind set. What a change in perspective from hope to darkness.
I also note that you must be democrat because you want to redistribute oxygen from beleivers to those your party finds to have a superior gene set.
You are setting your children up with a godless mindset. What you have said is an example of that mindset.
As to innocent children you are suggesting that if there was a God innocent children would never die. This is wrong from an atheist position and Gods. Take note of the Bible which makes it clear innocent children will die with God and His promise to wipe away their tears. Take note atheist believe there is no God and innocent children die with their tears end of story. This is the fall of man as pictured in Genesis and the fall of your hope into a dead end. On position is truth and the vast majority of mankind sense that truth while the other is the hopless void of nothingness.
Atheists love to hold out if there was a God then innocent children would not die. This implys if there is no God there would be a differnt outcome yet it is known the outcome is the same. Your position and mindset contradit.
The Welsh would be Irish except that they couldn't swim.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBoItR59REQ&w=480&h=360]
God keep our land ... the Canadian National Anthem is a prayer
@just sayin: It is an anthem not a god damn prayer you delusional freak!!! Just because it spews the word god means nothing!!! God doesn't exist and you are braindead!!!
O Canada Is a God honoring prayer for a theocracy
I'm feeling nationalistic too.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrRATq_a6Ok&w=480&h=360]
Haven't the Welsh always been English butt kissers? Wales isn't a country it is a minor district in England.
ᐆ ᑲᓇᑕ!
ᓇᖕᒥᓂ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ!
ᐱᖁᔭᑏ ᓇᓚᑦᑎᐊᖅᐸᕗᑦ.
ᐊᖏᒡᓕᕙᓪᓕᐊᔪᑎ,
ᓴᙱᔪᓗᑎᓪᓗ.
ᓇᖏᖅᐳᒍ, ᐆ ᑲᓇᑕ,
ᒥᐊᓂᕆᑉᓗᑎ.
ᐆ ᑲᓇᑕ! ᓄᓇᑦᓯᐊ!
ᓇᖏᖅᐳᒍ ᒥᐊᓂᕆᑉᓗᑎ,
ᐆ ᑲᓇᑕ, ᓴᓚᒋᔭᐅᖁᓇ!
They should call this the Belief Blog Dryer Lint – recycled fluff of no use whatsoever. When the best thing that happens is hippypoet's daily random question, then you know you are dealing with something as powerful and relevant as last Tuesday's discarded taco wrapper.
I guess the real question is which CNN exec is Dan Merica related to? This daily klunker just has to be the result of nepotism.
oh you best not be bashing the taco wrapper – been a good friend all these long years, to me and my throne!
How dare you!
i have thrown down the gauntlet my good fellow! the game is afoot!
I want taco bell so bad right now. damn you....
I've got a mental picture of Hippy and BRC on the Taco Bell Mir space station target....
http://www.spaceref.ca/news/viewpr.html?pid=4152