February 5th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

The new Christian abolition movement

By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Greensboro, North Carolina (CNN) —The truck-stop hooker is no Julia Roberts, the trucker in the cab with her no Richard Gere, and this truck stop off the highway could not be any farther from Beverly Hills, the staging ground for “Pretty Woman.”

The woman sports baggy shorts, a white T-shirt and frizzy hair. Her fat middle-aged pimp sits in a beat up red Honda, watching as his “lot lizard” moves from truck to truck, in broad daylight.  If this pimp has a cane it is for substance, not style.

She moves through the parking lot, occasionally opening a cab’s passenger-side door and climbing in.

The trucker and hooker disappear in the back for 10 minutes.

Danielle Mitchell watches from the other end of the parking lot and shakes her head.

“We know from talking to other victims and other agencies that girls are taken to truck stops and they’re actually traded,” she says, sitting in her car, a shiny silver sport utility vehicle, keeping a healthy 50-yard distance from the pimp.

CNN's Belief Blog – all the faith angles to the day's top stories

Mitchell is North Carolina human trafficking manager for World Relief.  World Relief is a Christian nonprofit attached to the National Association of Evangelicals and is best known for its efforts to combat global hunger and respond to disasters around the world.

Mitchell is trying to tackle a disaster in her home state.   And she is not alone.

Motivated in large part by their religious traditions of protecting the vulnerable and serving “the least of these,” as Jesus instructed his followers to do in the Gospel of Matthew, World Relief and other Christian agencies like the Salvation Army are stepping up efforts and working with law enforcement to stem the flow of human trafficking, which includes sex trafficking and labor trafficking.

“Jesus didn’t just go around telling people about himself.  He also healed the blind and healed the brokenhearted, he freed captives, and I think that it would be ridiculous to walk up to someone who is hurting and tell them, ‘Let me tell you about the Gospel,’ and then walk away while they’re still hurting,” Mitchell says.

In North Carolina, the result of those efforts can be seen in the number of victims of human trafficking being referred to World Relief for services, up 700% in 2011, Mitchell says.

“It’s not that North Carolina is all of a sudden trafficking more people,” Mitchell says. “It’s that we know what to look for and we’re actually identifying and rescuing them.”

Truck stops and sweet potatoes

North Carolina’s rich soil makes it an agricultural hub. It produces more sweet potatoes than anywhere else in the country.  The state acts as a crossroads for three major interstate highways. The mix of accessibility and low-paying farm jobs make a good working environment for traffickers, Mitchell says.

This truck stop is the type you think twice about.  It’s grimy and run down.

How badly do I really have to use the bathroom?  I bet I could hold out for another 12 miles.  That kind of place.

Mitchell walks in and politely asks the women behind the register if they have tape.

“Over there, honey,” the cashier says, pointing to a dimly lit portion of the store.

After paying for a roll of industrial packing tape, she tucks it in her purse and heads for the restroom.

In a stall on the far end, she shuts the door behind her and pulls out the tape and a poster with words in English and Spanish.

“Need help?” the poster asks. “Are you being forced to do something you don’t want to do?” There’s a toll free number, 888-373-7888, for the National Human Trafficking Hotline, run by the nonprofit Polaris Project.

More on the fight against modern-day slavery at the CNN Freedom Project

“A lot of times when girls are being trafficked they’re being controlled,” Mitchell says. “They’re often not allowed to get very far from their trafficker.  And we’ve found one of the very few times girls are alone is when they’re in the bathroom.”

She used to ask if she could hang posters in truck stop restrooms. Now she just hangs them.

That toll free hot line number is plastered on combs, lip balms and nail files that Mitchell and other anti-trafficking workers can slip discreetly to men and women they suspect might be victims. Slipping a potential client an anti-trafficking business card could be dangerous, even deadly, they say.

A comb, nail file and lip balm feature the number for the National Human Trafficking Hotline.

But it’s not the only way Mitchell gets in touch with victims.  Law enforcement is reaching out to her more and more.

When North Carolina law enforcement breaks up a trafficking ring, they call her.

She helps the victims get safe places to live, food and job training,  along with just being a conversation partner.

Since 2010, North Carolina has had a statewide coalition to fight human trafficking. Law enforcement officers are now trained in what to look for. The program includes rapid response teams made up of representatives from law enforcement, service providers, hospitals and charities. When a potential victim comes into a hospital or is discovered through an arrest, the team springs into action.

“Victims are not going to self-identify,” says Mitchell, who has since left World Relief and is considering going back to school after a lack of funding threatened to cut her hours to part time. “ They’re not going to say ‘I’m a victim of human trafficking.’ So the burden is really on the service providers and law enforcement and the community."

In North Carolina, the partnerships between those groups, she says, “have helped to rescue victims.”

Church and state in an unlikely coalition 

Christian groups working to combat trafficking are providing law enforcement with some much-needed relief.

“Because of the limitations of our work, we like to partner with organizations that can provide services,” says Kory Williford, a victim specialist with the FBI based in North Carolina.

“Human trafficking isn’t the only victim population we work with, so to have organizations who can provide care to our victims on a longer term basis than we are able to is huge,” she says.

“A lot of sex trafficking is occurring in this state” and labor trafficking is on the upswing, Williford says.

The FBI in North Carolina has been partnering with World Relief for several years.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Anand P. Ramaswamy, who focuses on human trafficking cases across the state from the federal prosecutors office in Greensboro, says he has been collaborating with local law enforcement on human trafficking.

“Those kind of cases have only recently been on the uptick,” he says. “As officers become more trained in what to look for, the number of cases goes up.”

The nation and the state are still working to catch up with the reality of trafficking, he says.

“Sometimes the victim was treated as part of the problem,” he says.  “In one instance a 16-year-old girl was charged with prostitution by local authorities.  So we have to go and sort of undo that.  That’s also the case where the person may have done something wrong, so they’re reluctant to come forward.”

Ramaswamy is keenly aware that his office and religious groups do not always have the same interests. His is in upholding and enforcing the law, while religious groups are interested in practicing their religion.

But the assistant U.S. attorney still believes in the partnership between church and state.

“On one hand the fact they’re a religious organization is not directly relevant,” he says. “However, if you look at the history of the abolitionist movement, it has always been religious communities and those are the people who are concerned enough to be active in it.

“And today with modern-day slavery the same is the case.”

The new Underground Railroad

Westover Church in Greensboro, North Carolina, is imagining what fighting modern-day slavery could look like. The nondenominational suburban church is cut from an evangelical cloth and has 5,000 members and a sprawling campus.

In 2011, the church started a ministry called “Abolition!” to fight human trafficking. It focuses on prayer, awareness and resources.

“In truth we didn’t know what we were going to do. We just knew we had a really strong passion for it,” says Dianne Stone, an "Abolition!" member. “We didn’t want to be a group that got together and said, ‘Oh we feel so bad for this.’ We wanted to do something and we wanted to make a difference.”

In a bright room off the sanctuary, Stone, Cambre Weller and Jennifer Craver, all members the group, explain why they got involved. They seem unlikely fighters against trafficking.

They could easily pass for a women’s Bible study group as they casually chat about their children and church activities before turning their attention to trafficking concerns in their area.

“It’s another thing to realize this is in your backyard and that’s our responsibility to address that and protect those who are being exploited,” Craver says.

What's the role of faith in fighting slavery?

Craver says the things they have learned about trafficking are horrible and keep her up at night. “I don’t want to know about trafficking, but I do know about it and as a Christian, I feel like I have to respond to that,” she says. “That is part of my calling.”

The group screens documentaries about human trafficking at other churches and sends out speakers to the Christian circuit. They also prepare emergency bags: canvas totes with a comb, brush, journal, pajamas, clean towels and other basics they learned that most trafficked women don’t have.

They keep a ready stash of bags for World Relief to distribute to victims, particularly those who are rescued during raids.

Mitchell says her faith has played a large role in her work to help victims of trafficking. “I don’t think I’m any different than anyone I work with, in vulnerability or dignity,” she says. “And man, I really believe that Christ saw everyone equally.”

Danielle Mitchell views her faith as integral to her work in fighting human trafficking.

“I could have been born in a brothel in India,” she says.

But there is a limit to how much personal faith she shares with clients.

“We’re completely client centered,” she says. “That means we’re not going to force our faith on anyone.  And I don’t talk to the clients about what I believe, unless they ask me.”

“If a client asks me and they want to go to a Buddhist temple, then I’m going to take them because that’s what they want.”

Prostituted not prostitute

Back at the truck stop, Mitchell explains that she hates the term “prostitute” and despises the phrase “lot lizard.”  She says it strips people of their dignity.

Instead, she refers to a “woman or man who is being prostituted.”  It is a slight change in wording that reveals a starkly different viewpoint.

“A lot of people think of sex trafficking or prostitution, they think it’s glamorous and that you can pinpoint someone who is selling sex or being sold for sex,” she says. “Usually it’s just average people who maybe aren’t taking care of themselves."

The prostitute, or woman being prostituted, or potential human trafficking victim, gets back into the beat up red Honda with the overweight pimp, who drives off, maybe after catching a glimpse of a journalist and activist watching them from a safe distance.

Mitchell calls the police to report what she just saw.

A few hours later, they call back and say the alleged pimp and alleged prostitute are long gone.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church and state • North Carolina • United States

soundoff (1,631 Responses)
  1. National Association of Human Trafficking Victim Advocates


    Thank you for passing along to anyone that may be able to assist our efforts.



    February 7, 2012 at 5:33 pm |
  2. Dave Dason

    I fervently hope and pray that atheists specially David Johnson will start to grow some brain at least to the the size of a quark for them to understand what this or an article all about. That they maybe a lil bit on-topic next time they make a post or comment.

    February 7, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • rh

      This article is unrelated to evangelicals, the woman says herself she'd take someone to a Buddhist temple if they asked to go.

      This just proves that the only useful religious people are the ones who believe in their faith enough not to shove it down others' throats.

      February 7, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
    • Dave Dason

      "This article is unrelated to evangelicals,"

      Who says it isn't, me? Oh, c'mon!

      February 7, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
  3. bob

    religion is LAME

    February 7, 2012 at 11:34 am |
    • Churchlady

      You can read a whole story about the massive exploitation of human beings – and the BEST you can say is that religion is LAME? Unless and until you have been moved to help someone in deep trouble, it's not religion that is lame.

      February 7, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
    • Jim

      Relax, Bob was between home room and math class and had nothing else to do but write something stupid.

      February 7, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
    • AmericanSam

      Not that I don't agree with you bob, but this isn't the place to be putting that comment. If you are reading an article about how religious people are helping people in these terrible situations and the only thing that comes to mind is about how religion is lame, then you are lame.

      February 7, 2012 at 6:37 pm |
  4. mikey

    John 3:19-21

    February 7, 2012 at 10:29 am |
  5. Reality

    A possible solution---------->

    Only for the newbies:

    Video tape the situation i.e.the time and date, the girl getting into the truck, the truck's license plate and the pimp's car and license plate and run said tapes on YouTube. Shame is a great deterrent as are wives of truckers who find that their husbands are not being faithful. Complaints made to the trucking companies and to those companies paying these truckers to haul their products would also help to put a quick end to said practice especially when said truckers lose their jobs over their obscene activities. With the sophisticated video cameras/recorders available today, the taping can be done at a safe distance.

    February 6, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • Reality

      BTW, I love it up the ass, if anyone is offering.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
    • Reality

      The last response was not from the original Reality.

      February 7, 2012 at 12:07 am |
  6. faustus

    I think I finally understand the difference between an ignostic and an atheist. An atheist finds it worth their time to argue and bash theists on a Faith blog. An ignotstic would consider such arguments meaningless and merely move on.

    February 6, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      "Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt"

      February 6, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • Goddog

      I am an Atheist. I join in the conversations here occasionally but I only bash back when bashed. I would love to see organized religion abolished personally, but this woman and group are doing a great service so I have no problem with the reason that they are. Namaste!

      February 6, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • faustus


      Thank you. My best friend is an atheist, and he is actually very tolerant. He doesn't bash other people's views on religion. I jokingly called him an ignostic because he isn't abrasive with his views. For the less knowledgeable here, Ignostic: is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism and atheism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts.

      It can be defined as encompassing two related views about the existence of God:

      1.The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of god can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.

      2.The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by 'God'?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" as meaningless.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • Reaper


      You cannot divorce the concept from the term. Thus it is "meaningless" in this sense yet worthy of discussion.

      February 7, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
    • ashrakay

      My best friend is a black guy, therefore I'm not a racist.

      February 8, 2012 at 8:02 pm |
  7. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    I was hoping this article was about a movement to abolish christianity. Very misleading.

    February 6, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
    • urafkntool

      like I said before CNN illegally oppressed me by deleting my posts. I was hoping it was a story about bowel movements!

      February 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Interesting that all of our earlier posts were removed. I don't remember anything particularly controversial about what we awere talking about.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Yet David's 2000 word dissertation remains?

      February 6, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • urafkntool

      Yeah I know. People get offended because I'm not particularily PC and I'm not the kind of person to step around another's sensitivities. They get their friends to log on and hit report abuse, but I've been hitting report abuse on lots of bots and s-h-i-t and nothing ever changes. I think it's because I'm white.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      I concur, I also think it's because your white.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin


      February 6, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • TomTerrific

      Sorry the writer of this article wrote over your head by referencing the historic Christian battle to abolish human slavery and this current effort of Christians to abolish human trafficking. Perhaps if you actually studied history you could recognize all the good that people of faith have accomplished. But you can never do that since a nuanced worldview is beyond your capacity.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      LOL@Tom – Ok hero, whatever you say.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      But let me point out that 1. your bible approves of slavery, 2. All of the slave owners in the South that opposed abolition and integration were "good" christians, 3. South Africa's Apartheid was created and enforced by S.A. christians for decades, and 4. The only christians who truly opposed slavery and actively helped slaves to freedom were Quakers, which most christians of the time viewed as a cult because of their unwillingness to fight in wars.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • urafkntool

      Let's be fair here. There's nothing particularly wrong or unusual with slavery in human history. Various white peoples have been enslaved time and time again, the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians (and I think the Assyrians, too, but not sure). When ya conquer someone, the first thing you do is enslave the native populace. It's not even really a conscious thought, it's more of an instinct.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • Tom

      Me too...

      February 6, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
  8. David Johnson

    Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.

    No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist. I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist.
    But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we see in the world around us.

    In the real world, any object that provides no evidence for its existence is classified as imaginary.

    I think we can rule out god, in the same way we rule out any other mythological creature. I can't prove vampires or werewolves or fairies don't exist. But, I bet you would agree, that they are not real. They just don't fit in with the reality we see all around us.

    Skepticism is the adult response to anything, for which there is no evidence. Only children under the age of 6, should suspend their critical thinking and believe in magic.

    I bet you don't believe in Zeus, or Isis, or Allah, or Krishna. Right? They just don't seem "real". There just isn't any evidence... Except the universe must have a creator. Something can't come from nothing. Which doesn't mean the Christian god was responsible. Zeus and Krishna seemed quite capable.

    So, we can look for attributes of the Christian god, that should provide evidence that He exists. Sort of like measuring the direction and force of the wind...
    If positive evidence is found, we should conclude that god probably exists.
    If positive evidence is not found, then we should conclude that the Christian God, beyond a reasonable doubt, does not exist.
    Just like Santa. Just like fairies. Just like vampires. Just like the other gods you reject?

    One of the most compelling reasons for rejecting a god, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.). Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong.
    Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps the one true god does not exist.

    Christians claim their god is Omnipotent ( all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all good).

    1). If god is Omnibenevolent, He would WANT every human to believe in Him.
    The bible says He does:

    2 Peter 3:9
    9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. King James Version (KJV)

    1 Timothy 2:4
    4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. King James Version (KJV)

    2.) If god is Omniscient, then He would KNOW exactly how to convince anyone and everyone that He exists.

    3.) If god is Omnipotent, then He would be ABLE to convince anybody and everybody that He exists.

    Yet, ~ 67% of the world's population are not Christians.

    Therefore, the Christian god is very unlikely to exist.

    In the same vein as the above, notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000 – World Christian Encyclopedia (2001)).

    Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.
    All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
    Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.

    If the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?

    The bible says:

    1 Corinthians 14:33 – KJV
    33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    Christians believe god's purpose in creating the Bible is to guide human beings towards a knowledge of God, and to help them lead moral lives. If this is so, then Christians must be certain of the meaning of the Bible.

    ambiguity – a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression.

    "There are in excess of 1,000 Christian faith groups in North America. They teach diverse beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, the second coming, Heaven, Hell, the rapture, criteria for salvation, speaking in tongues, the atonement, what happens to persons after death, and dozens of other topics.

    On social controversies, faith groups teach a variety of conflicting beliefs about abortion access, equal rights for ho_mo$exuals and bi$exuals, who should be eligible for marriage, the death penalty, physician assisted suicide, human $exuality topics, origins of the universe, and dozens of other topics.

    The groups all base their theological teachings on the same Bible. Generally speaking, the theologians in each of these faith groups are sincere, intelligent, devout, thoughtful and careful in their interpretation of the Bible. But, they come to mutually exclusive conclusions about what it teaches.
    Further, most are absolutely certain that their particular interpretations are correct, and that the many hundreds of faith groups which teach opposing beliefs are in error." Source: Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance

    If the bible is ambiguous, then it cannot be said to be inerrant. If the bible is not without error, then how do we know which parts to accept as truth and which to reject as fiction? If there is one god, one holy spirit, how can all these denominations exist? Why doesn't the holy spirit whisper in everybody's ear and tell them the Jehovah Witnesses are right.? Or the Mormons? Or the Evangelicals? LOL

    The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.

    Another reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one. Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled. So far, science has found no need for a god. The claim, that "God Did It", has always been wrong in the past. On this issue, I think the future will look a lot like the past.

    Belief without a reason or evidence, is called "delusional".

    Christians often quote:
    John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    If the Christian god so loves the world, why does He allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ?

    I can explain the existence of these horrors as being due to natural causes and evolution, but my explanation fails when I include an all loving Creator in the equation. I keep getting a "Can't divide by zero" error.

    Christians say their god is omnibenevolent (all good); omnipotent (all powerful); omniscient ( all knowing)

    1. If the Christian god is all knowing, He would be AWARE of all the suffering on earth.
    2. If the Christian god is all good, He would WANT to rid the world of suffering / evil.
    3. If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be ABLE to rid the world of suffering / evil.
    4. Yet, evil persists.
    Therefore, The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.

    The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.

    If the Christian god is all knowing, if the future can be known, then even god would be bound by events in the future. Everything would be predetermined.

    1. If the Christian god, knows what will happen in the future, and does something else...then, He is not all knowing.
    2. If the Christian god knows the future and cannot change it, then He is not all powerful.
    3. The attributes attributed to the Christian god conflict with one another.
    The Christian god with these attributes cannot exist. No being can have these attributes at the same time.

    Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.

    If god created all the organisms on the planet, then He must have created even the diseases that have caused and are causing so much death and misery for humans and animals. He would have had to fashion the tick and the flea. The mosquito and blood flukes. And worms that bore into a child's eye.

    How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering? Yet, these horrors exist. And if god didn't create them, who did?

    Evolution explains the diversity of the planet's organisms, including the pathogens and the parasites that have caused so much human death and misery.

    If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.

    If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.

    If there was no original sin, then it cannot be the reason god allows so much suffering in the world. Instead, there are natural causes for earthquakes and floods and other disasters.

    If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.

    If there was no redeemer, then Christianity is a based on a false premise.

    "If we cannot believe in the First Adam, why believe in the Last [Christ]?" 1 Corinthians15:45

    If the Creation story is a myth, then there is no reason to believe any of the bible, for the entire bible is based on Genesis.
    If we evolved, there is no soul –> no afterlife –> no need of a heaven or hell.

    LOL, which is why the Creationists fight so hard against evolution. And why many Evangelicals are reinterpreting Genesis to encompass an old earth. Their reasoning is that everyone before them, interpreted the Creation Week, incorrectly. *snicker*
    Let's see... "And there was evening and there was morning, one day." – Umm... That's millions of years to you and me!

    The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, or talking snakes, or Allah, or Zeus or Santa. And you don't believe in any of those, Right? If I post Krishna is a myth, you wouldn't post back that, that cannot be proven.
    You only get huffy, when I pick on your brand of god. *eye roll*

    The reason why we can find no empirical evidence for God's existence is not because "God is a magical being completely able to hide from us." It is because God is imaginary.


    February 6, 2012 at 10:59 am |
    • J.W

      Oh there are vampires. They may just not be as powerful as the one in the movies. I think Krishna was real he just lived in 3000 BC

      February 6, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      Very nice David.

      February 6, 2012 at 11:38 am |
    • Russ

      @ David Johnson:

      Philosopher Paul Chamberlain says it is logically erroneous to as'sert that positive truth claims bear a burden of proof while negative truth claims do not. He notes that all truth claims bear a burden of proof, and that like Mother Goose and the tooth fairy, the teapot bears the greater burden not because of its negativity but because of its triviality, arguing that "When we subst'itute normal, serious characters such as Plato, Nero, Winston Churchill, or George Washington in place of these fictional characters, it becomes clear that anyone denying the existence of these figures has a burden of proof equal to, or in some cases greater than, the person claiming they do exist."

      February 6, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Ivan

      Some scientists believe we will discover biological immortality within the next few decades. Species like the immortal Jellyfish [Turritopsis nutricula] already exhibit this trait. Numerous Olive trees, like those discussed in the Bible are believed to be older than 2000 years. A Great Basin Bristlecone Pine in North America is known to be at least 4,842 years old. Based on many of the discoveries we have already made in the last 150 years, it does seem certain that "[we] are gods [or someday will be], and all of [us] children of the most High" (Psalms 82:6). If we're so close to discovering biological immortality on our own, then it is easy for me to think that our Father in Heaven has already discovered true and complete immortality for all of us! Read these scriptures and think.

      Premortal Existence as spirits, the Veil, Creation of the Earth, the War in Heaven, and Creation of Man

      “[Ye] know not, neither will [ye] understand; [ye] walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course”. Psalms 82:5 “The beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”. Ephesians 3:9 Who said, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding... When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy”? Job 38:4,7 Where wast thou “when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them”? Job 1:6 Or when “there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels”? Revelation 12:7 Where wast thou when “the great dragon was cast out: that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” Revelation 12:9 “and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven”?! Revelation 12:4

      For behold, “God is a spirit”, John 4:24 “but there is a spirit in man”. Job 32:8 “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee”. Jeremiah 1:5 “[The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ] hath chosen [you] in him before the foundation of the world”. Ephesians 1:3-4 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High”. Psalms 82:6 “[Ye] are the offspring of God [and] ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device”. Acts 17:29 “God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them”. Genesis 1:27 “In the likeness of God made he him", just like Adam “begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth”. Genesis 5:1,3

      Mortality and Life on Earth

      “According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord”, Ephesians 3:11 “God gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 For on Earth there is but “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all”. Ephesians 4:5-6. “[Jesus is] the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by [him]”. John 14:6

      “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Mark 16:16 “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord”. Acts 3:19 “Repentance and remission of sins should be preached in [Christ's] name among all nations”. Luke 24:7

      “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord”. Psalm 1:1-2 “Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you”. 1 John 3:13 “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” 2 Timothy 3:12-17 Like when the Jews answered Christ, saying “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” John 10:33 and Christ replied “though ye believe not me, believe the works”! John 10:38 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only”. James 2:24 “Shall ye sin, because ye are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid”! Romans 6:15 “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”. James 2:26

      Spiritual Death, Physical Death, and the Spirit World

      As “children of the Most High[,] ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes”, Psalms 82:7 who is Satan. And in the moment of physical death, “then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”, Ecclesiastes 12:7 Just like Christ said to one of the thieves when crucified, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”! Luke 23:43 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison”. 1 Peter 3:19 For is it not prudent to “preach the gospel to every creature”? Mark 16:15 “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit”. 1 Peter 4:6 As said before, there is “one faith, one baptism”! Ephesians 4:5 “If the dead rise not at all[,] why are they then baptised for the dead?” 1 Corinthians 15:29

      Resurrection of the Dead

      “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” 1st Corinthians 15:21-22 “The dead shall be raised incorruptible, and [ye] shall be changed. This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory”. 1st Corinthians 15:52-54

      Judgment Defines Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Degrees of Glory

      But “All flesh is not the same flesh” 1st Corinthians 15:39 “The dead [will be] judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelations 20:12
      There are “celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead”. 1st Corinthinans 15:40-42

      The Importance of Following Christ

      Which is why “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Till [ye] all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”! Ephesians 4:14

      A Commandment to be Perfect

      “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”. Matthew 5:48 For “it doth not yet appear what [you] shall be: but [you] know that, when he shall appear, [you] shall be like him; for [you] shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure”! 1 John 3:2-3

      For more information about immortality you can read about it in Wikipedia. I'm a Mormon and as a Mormon, this is what I believe.


      February 6, 2012 at 12:17 pm |
    • Deb Keough

      David, what does your disbelief in God have to do with this? Are you part of an organization that is helping with human trafficking? Are you part of the solution, or are you just using this as an excuse to take a pot-shot at Christianity? Whether you believe or not, it is the religious groups that are taking the initiative to do something about this. It is the religious groups that are helping the victims. What are YOU doing about it? Just a thought.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
    • Me

      So, what you are saying is that the victums discussed in this story are unimportant, only bashing Chritians is important.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • Katherine W S

      David, I find it sort of pathetic that you need to troll Belief blogs to rant about non-belief. Are you a new non-believer? Is that the reason it isn't okay for anyone to be religious around you. Some people need the thought of religion to be comfortable. Why is it your personal responsibility to prove to them they don't see the light? Rather intolerant and personally, I'm embarassed of the athiests who feel the need to conduct themselves in such a manner. Hitchens, you are not. You're pathetically trolling a religious blog to prove otherwise.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      Haha, so far I'm pretty amused by the theist's responses.

      A crack philosopher
      (those making negative claims only hold the burden of proof if the positive claim has already been verified. Someone claiming Washington didn't exist must prove so because there is already proof that is did)
      Something about eternal life
      (not sure how It's exactly related)
      And then some posts attacking where the op is posted and nothing about its content. Way to go theists. Proving again that your views can't hold up to solid reasoning.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:56 pm |
    • David Johnson


      You said: "Philosopher Paul Chamberlain says it is logically erroneous to as'sert that positive truth claims bear a burden of proof while negative truth claims do not."

      "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" – Carl Sagan

      Consider: If I make the claim there are fairies living in my left shoe, it would be my burden to "prove" that this was so. It would not be your burden, to prove it was not so. If I could not provide satisfactory evidence of what I claim, you could and should reject my claim as being false.

      If we must provide evidence that each fantastic / extraordinary claim is NOT true, then tons of time would be wasted. Read my post on deciding what is likely and unlikely based on our view of reality. Santa cannot be proven to not exist. But, few would argue that the jolly elf is a myth.

      In order for you to accept that Smith actually did receive golden tablets or that Muhammad flew up to heaven on a winged horse, I suspect you would require tons of evidence that it was true. More than likely, no amount of evidence would persuade you to dump your god and embrace these other faiths. The point is, you reject these gods / beliefs without absolute proof that
      that they not real. When we are dealing with the god / belief that you subscribe to, faith is equal to evidence...for you. It depends on whose ox is being gored...theirs or yours.

      When people believe things without evidence, they are left with no way to accurately judge whether or not what they believe reflects how things really are. Their beliefs must then be based on feelings and emotion or the unquestioned authority of something or somebody else, not evidence.

      The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.


      Skepticism is the adult position on any claim. The bigger the claim, the greater should be our skepticism.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Katherine W S

      You said: "David, I find it sort of pathetic that you need to troll Belief blogs to rant about non-belief. Are you a new non-believer?"

      Yes, I am a non-believer.

      You said: "Is that the reason it isn't okay for anyone to be religious around you. Some people need the thought of religion to be comfortable."

      They can be religious, but when they start proselytizing, I question their assertions. It's only fair.

      Yes, some people need religion. They are non-thinking sheep.

      You said: "Why is it your personal responsibility to prove to them they don't see the light? "

      I believe it is every freethinker's responsibility, to call into question, believer's claims. Believers are deluded.

      You said: "Hitchens, you are not."

      I could not carry Hitchen's shoes. But, how could I honor him better, than by carrying on his teachings?

      You accuse me of being a troll. But, you have no problem with the believers spouting their delusions, in comment after comment. Pfui!

      If our nation is to be enslaved by the Christian Right, I will not hold my arms out, ready to be chained. I will fight ignorance and stupidity at every opportunity.

      Your god is very unlikely to exist.


      February 6, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • Schix

      Well put David, but you cannot reach these people. Part of the problem lies in areas of the brain we do not completely understand. It has been postulated that religious fervor/magical thinking is a mental disorder of some kind. I believe that is the only way to truly understand and accept the nature of faith is to know that it is in fact a mental disorder, or at the very least, a predisposition due to the hyperactivity and/or hypoactivity in some areas of the brain.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Jenn

      @David – you forgot to tell us what you are doing to help trafficking victims. You did read in the article that she does NOT proselytize – right? So, what was your point again? You condemn her for doing good because she believes differently than you do? Which side is intolerant again? Honestly.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • faustus

      Ok. You can prove that negative. All carrots are orange. We know this is false because we have seen carrots come in a myriad of colors.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • Ivan


      What would it take for you to believe in a Creator? If you witnessed the discovery of biological immortality that extended our lives for 1000s of years, would that be enough to believe that maybe something written in the Bible about the creation of the Earth is true? What if a group of those immortals spent the next three millenia gathering up asteroids together between Mars and Earth to build a world with a sustainable atmosphere? Would that help you believe that there was a creator of perhaps our own Earth? What if this same group of biological immortals at some point discovered true and complete immortality that could extend lives for billions and billions of years? Would that help?

      What if this same group of immortals discovered that some of themselves abuse their gift of immortality? Could you see a life of "fire and brimstone" like that talked about in the bible for some who choose not to use this gift properly? A place of hell, a place separated from others where noone desires to purify or better themselves, where their eternal growth is stunted because of sin? Knowing this, what would these immortals do to warn their offspring? Perhaps a roadmap would be provided like the Bible or other scripture? What would you think this roadmap would be?

      If the Immortal Jellyfish has biological immortality, then surely at some point man can as well. And if man can, then the creator of man already has. This is what Faith is... It reveals enough of the truth to instill a little faith. That faith allows us to act and behave accordingly.

      Have you not wondered why the world is so different today than it was 150 years ago? I hear that Christ plans on returning to Earth really soon in something called the great Millenium where mortals will be living together with immortals.

      What would you say if I knew of scripture that fit very well with the massive heat death of the universe or the concept of the Multiverse? Both of those concepts are discussed in Astronomy. But this scripture was revealed long before those concepts were taught. Would that scripture be enough for you to believe? Perhaps not. Faith is required and there are those who will dispute the validity of those scriptures as well.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • Uncouth Swain

      David Johnson-" Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist. No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist. "

      That's just being intellectually lazy David. And of course you cannot prove that no god exists. But you can prove what you feel is true, that the concept of god was created by a man.

      Good luck with that....cheers 😉

      February 6, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • MF

      Empirical Evidence:
      Jesus of Nazareth existed and this fact is attested to by both internal and external evidence.
      His crucifixion as a blasphemer and criminal are also attested to by both internal and external evidence.
      Finally his resurrection from the dead is also attested to in the same manner.

      If you want it I will provide the citations of this evidence but it suffices to say that if the above is true then the claims that he made about himself are legitimate and these include that he is the Son of God, that if you have seen him you have see his Father (God), and that he is was in existence before Abraham and in fact is eternal and without beginning or end.
      If you can disprove the historical facts that are attested to by internal and external evidence then you will have some claim as to having a basis for your argument. The facts are clear and the evidence cannot be disproved. The conclusions following these facts takes logic to come to but they follow as well..
      Whether you believe it or not is a matter of faith.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Matthew 12 KJV
      38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
      39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
      40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

      Jesus refused to give them a sign (miracle, evidence, proof). He could have. You would like proof and we can't give you any. All we have is the witness of the scriptures and the witness of our personal testimony. So, if you will accept witnesses instead of physical evidence we may be able to help.

      You touched on a lot in your lenghty post and I especially enjoyed the scripture references. However, I would like to point out a couple of things. God did not create robots. He created us in his own image. He gave us the ability to think and make decisions. He is not going to force us to believe in him or love him. We, in most cases, and with his permission of course, get to decide.

      God is compassionate and merciful. He is also just and jealous. Just read a little of the Old Testament. I think some, if not all of the pain and suffering in the world is due to sin. You can read or listen to the news one time and see and hear stories that make you wonder why. There are somethings we just don't know. Maybe we will find out someday.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ mf
      I'd like to see those citations

      February 6, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • Russ

      @ David Johnson
      1) I'm not a Mormon.
      2) Skepticism is not a default "adult" position. Are you equally skeptical of your own skepticism? It seems to me most skeptics are hypocrites in this: skeptical in everything outside themselves, but exceedingly confident in themselves.

      February 6, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • DamianKnight

      The perspective of some athiests, "Prove God exists" is actually a logical fallacy. It's called "Appeal to Ignorance." It is stating that simply because "proof" does not exist, that it is false.

      On a seperate, but related note, the proof demanded by these athiests is generally scientific in nature. Science is the study of the natural world and things perceived with the five senses. Since we are discussing the supernatural, and belief in things unseen, it would appear that science would be the wrong method to identifying a god.

      It's like, trying to use a microscope to find planets. Since we cannot see Pluto in a microscope, Pluto must not exist. We know this to be false, because one needs to use a different tool, namely a telescope to see Pluto.

      Same thing here. Stop trying to use science to prove the existance or lack thereof of a god. It's the wrong tool.

      February 6, 2012 at 5:15 pm |
    • Nonimus

      I'd like to see the citations, also, but only the external ones, assuming your internal/external division refers to the Bible.

      February 6, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • Eric G

      @DamianKnight: I am sorry, but your statement of logical fallacy is incorrect. The "Appeal to Ignorance" position is used to try to shift the burden of proof. If one has not satisfied the burden of proof inherent in a claim of a gods existence, it is impossible to shift that burden of proof to contrary positions.

      Science is a method used to gather, examine and verify evidence. That evidence can either be in support of or contrary to hypothesis. Science is indifferent to a claim, it is only concerned with the accuracy and verification of the data presented.

      The views you express are biased and intellectually dishonest. Please present evidence for verification.

      February 6, 2012 at 6:25 pm |
    • kim

      Eric G
      What nonsense show me evidence that science does not have the tools or methodolgy to find God. Why not ask me to show you how the Bible can prove Hubbles law.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:32 pm |
    • DamianKnight


      You need to look up what "Appeal to Ignorance" (or Argumentum ad Ignorantiam) means.

      It's essentially this.

      "There is no evidence that God exists,
      Therefore God does not exist."

      That's the logical fallacy.

      It's actually one of the examples most commonly used for this type of fallacy. This logical fallacy doesn't state that God exists. It merely means using the line of reasoning that since we cannot prove it, it must be false is a logical fallacy.

      "The views you express are biased and intellectually dishonest. Please present evidence for verification."

      Your last statement alone begs the question, what type of "evidence" would you accept? I could provide you with millions of examples of people who have personally experienced God, but that wouldn't suffice, right? You'd need something you can touch, taste, see, feel or hear.

      More than likely, you want to examine God in a petri dish or some other scientific inspection. This goes back to my original point that science is not the proper tool to understanding a metaphysical being. Using science to try and understand an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being is like staring at an ant and trying to understand thermodynamics. To consider science the only way of proving whether something exists, is extremely closed-minded at best, and arrogant at worst.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • pervert alert

      chris hitchens drunken liar and blasphemer whose throat rotted out on him at a relatively young age? good role model follow your leader

      February 6, 2012 at 8:09 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Why is it that people confuse the Scientific Method, Skepticism and the Natural Sciences?

      February 6, 2012 at 9:42 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Ladies, gentlemen and computer programs. Skepticism is a philosophy which atheists use. The scientific Method is used to gather evidence in a lot of fields of study. The Natural Sciences explore nature through the five rational senses with the Scientific Method. Don't mix them up.

      February 7, 2012 at 2:04 am |
    • David Johnson


      I would find it hard to believe, given that Evangelicals believe they must "witness" to anyone they can trap, that she does not proselytize. I think she would feel it her duty to bring them to Jesus.

      Why is this woman doing this? Is it a genuine love for her fellow man, or is it because she believes her demigod is smiling down at her? If this is so, then verily I say unto you, "she has her reward".


      February 7, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
    • David Johnson


      If man "discovers" a way to live forever, then it is an accomplishment of man. It adds nothing to the argument, that there is a god.

      Believers like to say, "God gives science cures for disease etc."

      This if not falsifiable. I cannot prove that there is no god. But I would ask, why god waited so long? Disease has killed millions. Why did these people have to die, before god gave his "gifts"? I could point out the hard work and incremental discoveries that led up to vaccines and antibiotics and surgical techniques etc.

      People, children, are dying from diseases today. Why doesn't god give man the knowledge of how to cure them?

      If you look at the history of medicine, it is clear to me that nothing has been given. It has been earned. To say "God Did It"
      is as worthless as saying Santa Did It.

      I cannot prove that a god did not give this, but I can show it is very unlikely.

      What would it take for me to believe in god?

      Have Him hover over the United Nations building.


      February 7, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • David Johnson


      There were no eyewitness accounts of Jesus. The Gospels were written by god knows who in the third person. The Gospels were written with an agenda i.e., Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God.

      We know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
      -Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (The Gnostic Gospels)

      The bottom line is we really don't know for sure who wrote the Gospels.
      -Jerome Neyrey, of the Weston School of Theology, Cambridge, Mass. in "The Four Gospels," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

      Jesus is a mythical figure in the tradition of pagan mythology and almost nothing in all of ancient literature would lead one to believe otherwise. Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it.
      -C. Dennis McKinsey, Bible critic (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

      Mark was the first gospel (Markan Priority). Luke and Mathew copied from Mark and from a doc_ument called "Q". 90% of Mathew's gospel, is copied from Mark. Why would an eyewitness need to copy from Mark? Not just the same narratives, but the exact same words?

      There are no known secular writings about Jesus, that aren't forgeries, later insertions, or hearsay. NONE!

      Most of the supposed authors lived AFTER Jesus was dead. Can you say hearsay? Can you say "the dead tell no tales"?

      Philo of Alexandria (20 BC – 50 AD) a contemporary Jewish historian, never wrote a word about Jesus. This is odd, since Philo wrote broadly on the politics and theologies around the Mediterranean.

      Lucius Annaeus Seneca (ca. 4 BCE – 65 CE) A.K.A. Seneca the Younger. A contemporary of Jesus wrote extensively on many subjects and people. But he didn't write a word about a Jesus.

      Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), better known as Pliny the Elder, was a Roman author, naturalist, and natural philosopher. Plinius wrote "Naturalis Historia", an encyclopedia into which he collected much of the knowledge of his time. There is no mention of a Jesus.

      The area in and surrounding Jerusalem served, in fact, as the center of education and record keeping for the Jewish people. The Romans, of course, also kept many records. Moreover, the gospels mention scribes many times, not only as followers of Jesus but the scribes connected with the high priests. And nothing about the Jesus. Nada! Not even something chiseled on a wall or carved into a tree like: "Jesus Loves Mary Magdalene".

      John 21:25 King James Version (KJV)
      25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

      Golly Gee! You would think a fellow this "gifted" , would have at least been mentioned by one of these historians.
      There is a line in the musical Jesus Christ Superstar that says:"The rocks themselves would start to sing".


      We don't even have a wooden shelf that Jesus might have built. Or anything written by Jesus. God incarnate, and we don't even have a Mother's day card signed by Him.

      Mark 3:7- 8 King James Version (KJV)
      7But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great mult_itude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea,
      8And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great mult_itude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.

      Yet, not one of these adoring fans, bothered to draw a picture, chisel a bust, or even write down a description. Even Mohammad has a description. Virtually all important people do. And god, being god, could have preserved it.

      Huge groups of people following a man who had performed miracles...yet no historian of the time, commented on it.

      The Dead Sea Scrolls did not mention Jesus or have any New Testament scripture, as some have claimed.

      Jesus, if he existed, was not considered important enough to write about by any contemporary person. The myth hadn't had a chance to flourish. The future stories and miracles needed time to grow and spread.

      Paul's writings were the first, about Jesus. But, Paul's writing was done 25 to 30 years after Jesus was dead. In a primitive, ultra-supersti_tious society, 25 years is a lot of time for a myth to grow. Twenty-five years was most of the average person's lifespan in the 1st Century.

      No television, No electric lights. People mostly sat around and told stories... Ever played "telephone"? A story is started at the beginning of a group. Each person passes the story along to the next person. The person at the end retells the story and it is compared to the original. Often the ending story is totally different from the original.

      Also, when you have a superhero, it is beyond belief that this hero's deeds would not get better in the telling.

      "The Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. " – Copyright 2008 – Jews for Judaism

      The authors of the gospels, blew it. They gave Spiderman oops, I mean Jesus, two separate genealogies.

      There is NO mention of Herod's massacre of the infants, by any scholars of Jesus' day.

      There is NO evidence that there was a custom for the Romans to release a prisoner during Passover.

      Some people feel that Paul, not Jesus, is the real father of what most Christians believe today (Pauline Christianity).
      Paul never actually met Jesus. His knowledge and faith was the result of hearsay and an epileptic "vision".

      "In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports."
      Source: http://www.epilepsiemuseum.de/alt/paulusen.html

      The Christian Right has embraced Paul as the moral lawgiver. Paul's First Ep_istle of Paul to the Thessalonians, is often quoted by the Republicans. You never hear them quote Jesus' advice to the rich. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

      Questions on the Crucifixion story:

      "Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save." Mark 15:31

      "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe..." Mark 15:32

      It would appear, that the chief priests are admitting that Jesus "saved" others. If they knew this, then there is no reason for them to demand that Jesus descend from the cross, in order for them to believe. They already admitted to knowing of Jesus' "miracles".

      This is just an obvious embellishment by Mark. A work of fiction possibly constructed to make it appear that some Old Testament "prediction" was fulfilled. Like:

      "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting." – Isaiah 50:6

      The New Testament writers admitted: "These things are written that you might believe"

      "The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure." – Copyright 2008 – Jews for Judaism

      Actually the tasks left undone, are the result of Jesus being a myth. Consider, that it's been 2000+ years. I don't think those "other" tasks are gonna be done. LOL

      Here is another:
      1 Corinthian 15:14-17 – Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection.

      1 Corinthians 15:4 "4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

      Matthew 12:40 – Jesus said, that He would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights.

      Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only 2 days at the most. Or, if you count Friday and Sunday as entire days, then you could get 3 days and 2 nights. This is a gimme though. The Mary's went to the grave at sunrise and it was empty.

      Obviously, the believers spin this like a pinwheel. I have seen explanations like: Jesus was actually crucified on Wednesday or maybe Thursday; The prophesy actually means 12 hour days, and not 24 hour days; The partial days are counted as full days. This one is true, but still doesn't add up.

      At any rate, the crucifixion day and number of days and nights Jesus spent in the grave, is disputed.

      It looks very much like, that Jesus was not in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. The prophecy was not fulfilled.
      1 Corinthian 15:14-17 – Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection. Hmm...

      And what of this?:

      Jesus had healed a woman on the Sabbath!:
      Luke 13 31:33 KJV
      31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
      32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
      33Nevertheless I must walk to day, and tomorrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

      NOTE that Jesus is saying, it is impossible for a prophet (Himself) to be killed outside of Jerusalem.
      Yet, Jesus WAS killed outside Jerusalem!

      Calvary or Golgotha was the site, outside of ancient Jerusalem’s early first century walls, at which the crucifixion of Jesus is said to have occurred. OOoopsie!

      And there is this:

      According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."
      Yet not a single secular mention of a three hour ecliptic event got recorded. 'Cause it didn't happen!

      Mathew 27 51:53
      51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ crucifixion and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

      How come nobody wrote about zombies running through the cities? 'Cause it is all b.s.

      An interesting note, which should not be ignored:

      "The same phenomena and portents of the sudden darkness at the sixth hour, a strong earthquake, rent stones, a temple entrance broken in two, and the rising of the dead have been reported by multiple ancient writers for the death of Julius Caesar on March 15, 44 BC." – Sources Wikipedia (John T. Ramsey & A. Lewis Licht, The Comet of 44 B.C. and Caesar's Funeral Games, Atlanta 1997, p. 99–107


      If you can't even believe the crucifixion story how likely is the resurrection account to be true? In a book that is a mix of fiction and "fact", how do you know which is which? Especially, since all of the bible seems very unlikely and does not fit with the reality we see around us.?

      Then there is the "testimony" of Jesus himself, who explicitly stated that some of his disciples would not die until Jesus inst_ituted the Kingdom, and that his generation would not pass away until all his prophecies of the end of the world had been fulfilled:

      [Jesus Speaking]
      Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

      I know, spin, spin, spin. But the truth is, the authors of the Gospels wrote that Jesus would be back in the 1st Century.
      Jesus could not be wrong and be god. Gossip and deceit, could.

      If Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God, who died for man's redemption, then this would be the most important event in the history of man.
      Having gone to the trouble of impregnating a human and being born god incarnate and dying for mankind's sins, why wouldn't god have ensured there was tons of evidence that this was true? Multiple Writings by contemporary eyewitnesses – Jews and Romans and Greeks.
      You are going to want to say that there IS lots of evidence, but look at reality: There are way more people, in the world, who are not Christians (67%) than who are (33%). Obviously, the evidence is not adequate to convince even a majority of the world's people.
      I would expect better performance from an almighty god.?

      You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. – Carl Sagan


      February 7, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • ashrakay

      @DamianKnight, Can you prove that Zeus, Odin, leprechauns or fairies do not exist? Can you prove that an invisible magic bunny didn't create the universe by shooting rainbows out of its as.s? If there were verifiable evidence than any fantasies, including that of god, were true, every atheist would be forced to accept that reality. That being said, I don't think even then they would choose to worship such a sad.istic ego-maniacal enti.ty.

      February 7, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
  9. captain america

    Are you a butt in canadian saying that our beloved American pastor Martin Luther King Jr. is not valid? Who the F are you? There's your sign

    February 6, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Are you a troll with one trick up his sleeve who attempts to discredit the posting of anyone not from America on an international news site and enjoys plagiarizing redneck comedians with only one joke?
      There's your sign – it reads "I iz ignant, y'all"

      February 6, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • captain america

      we hear the canadian national anthem is a prayer, let me join your more honest countrymen in telling you to F off. There's your sign

      February 6, 2012 at 10:57 am |
    • David Johnson

      @captain america

      I am an American. I love this country. I do not share your views. Doc Vestibule is bright, often funny and thought provoking. I am envious of Canada for having him as a citizen.

      Perhaps, we could arrange a swap. You for him?


      February 6, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      @David: Sorry but we don't want CA...maybe send it to Syria or one of the other oppressed countries or ask its favorite tv station for some idea's (FAUX news knows of all the good places to find people like it).

      February 6, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • captain america

      If David Johnson is an American he is a low end gutter trash american. David what mouthwash do you use to get the stench of foreign butt out of your mouth? Or is it that your multiple and expansive lies blend so well with the crap that old doc spews that it tastes normal to you? There's your sign

      February 6, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • I_get_it

      captain america,

      How does that syrupy Christian line go again?... "You must have been deeply wounded at some time in your life by someone professing to be a Canadian. Poor thing." May a majestic moose heal your bitter heart!

      February 6, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Still trolling cappie? Guess you need to when you have nothing else of worth to do with your life.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
    • sam

      Don't you have any other redneck sayings you can borrow besides 'there's your sign'? Seriously, we get that you've decided to be a nonstop tool, but can't you vary a little occasionally just for fun?

      February 6, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
  10. Portland Tonya

    Most people who post here and claim to be "atheists" are phonies who have deep seated resentment against those who profess a belief in God. The true non believer just ignores God and leaves it at that.They don't criticize others or have to justify their creed or pick fault with those who choose to believe.

    February 6, 2012 at 8:35 am |
    • YeahRight

      If you could keep your beliefs in your home, then we would have no problem but since you try to force it on others in society then that has to be stopped.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:41 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Yeah Right, as you just did... so start following your own beliefs, or realize how wrong they are

      February 6, 2012 at 8:46 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Yeah Right, as you just did... so start following your own beliefs, or realize how wrong they are"

      LMAO! Like you just did too idiot.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:51 am |
    • Portland Tonya

      You have just proved my point. Rave on!

      February 6, 2012 at 9:02 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Wow that went sailing right over your head didn't it

      "If you could keep your beliefs in your home, then we would have no problem but since you try to force it on others in society then that has to be stopped."
      Is your belief, which you can not carry out and does not work, for exactly that reason....

      I do it because I have already came to the realization that the above statement is a poor poor thing to believe in.... just trying to help you out.
      So yes I did not follow your foolish belief.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:32 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Root post by Portland Tonya contains both the ad hominem fallacy and the circu-mstantial ad hominem fallacy.


      February 6, 2012 at 10:13 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Portland Tonya

      For many years, I just ignored believers. Then came the Christian Right and their attempt to turn our secular nation into a Christian one. This is not acceptable to me. I will not be ruled by deluded Evangelicals. So, now I am an anti-theist.


      February 6, 2012 at 10:15 am |
    • BRC

      To be fair, I am an atheist who speaks out rather frequently, but I never attack or comment on an individual's beliefs. I am against the organizations and religions that try use and control those beliefs, and much like David above me, I thoroughly denounce any occasion where a person or religion's beliefs in the supernatural tries to creep into politics and exert influence on OTHER people's lives.

      Believe whatever you want, it's all a guessing game anyway, but noone has the right to control someone else's life because of their beliefs; and I will speak, scream, and rail agaisnt that whenever and whereever I can.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • Wes

      I do not need a "Daddy" figure. I grew up after I turned 18. Those who feel they must rest their shoulder on an imaginary friend in the sky that punishes them when they are bad and rewards them when they are good... should realize the rest of us... wear pants.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • Test

      Cheers Tonya.

      Atheists generally are very spiteful, stubborn, hate filled people. Don't be surprised when they want to attack everything about you, Its all apart of their game to blame their atheism on some evangelicals methods.

      February 6, 2012 at 11:23 am |
    • BRC

      WHile you were good enough to say generally instead of making an all inclusive blanket statement, I have to say that my own personal experience of interacting with, spendin time around, and being friends with wide range of people throughout my life, a large percentage of whom are atheist (and the overwhelming majority of my close friends are), does not match your results. I know plenty of bitter people, it has nothing to do with their faith or lack thereof.

      Also, I don't think atheists don't "blame" atheism on anything. 1) Most of the atheists I know are quite happy to be atheist, you don't blame someone for something you're happy about. 2) Most that I know also came to that conclusion on their own. They researched, considered, and thought about all of the various options and beliefs, and came to the personal conclusion that there are no gods. That made them an atheist, but there is noone to blame.

      Now, I know plenty of atheist (and theists mind you) that will blame assorted RELIGIONS for travesties that have happened throughout the world. I'm sure they would probably blame having an accurate knowledge of history for that (and no, Religion is not to blame for every bad thing ever, but it is to blame for enough that it is worth calling out).

      February 6, 2012 at 12:06 pm |
    • Schix

      Like David, for most of my life I just ignored religion, heck I even went to church once in a while just to accompany my wife and kids. It was not until the Christian right wing extremists/evangelicals/fundamentalists tried to take my country hostage and turn it into a theocracy like Iran that I took a less indifferent role.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @Portland Tonya,
      "The true non believer just ignores God and leaves it at that."
      Thank you for defining "true non-believers". Now, if we can just get an Atheist to define what a "true believer" is, then we're all set.

      February 6, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
  11. Jenn

    READ THE ARTICLE! This is NOT about pros--tion – it is about s– TRAFFICKING. This is when women are NOT WILLING PARTICIPANTS. Understand the difference? THAT is what she is fighting. Congratulations on showing your agendas for those of you who are discussing this as some article about Christians fighting pros--tion. At the very least if you could stay on point that would be great.

    February 6, 2012 at 8:33 am |
  12. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things
    A good man prays
    A great man acts on prayer
    Prayer changes things

    February 6, 2012 at 7:10 am |
    • Mirosal

      Like hell it does .. a GREAT man wouldn't need to "talk" to imaginary beings. It would be the same as consulting with your teddy bear before going to sleep.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:12 am |

    • You don't still do that do you, Mirosal?

      February 6, 2012 at 7:16 am |
    • just sayin

      Martin Luther King, Great man, man of prayer.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:17 am |
    • just sayin

      Billy Graham, Great man, man of prayer

      February 6, 2012 at 7:24 am |
    • Mirosal

      MLK was a man of PEACE above all else. Almost 44 years since his death, and he's still ahead of his time.
      As for the idiot who has no blog name ... I have never owned a teddy bear. I bought or won for my wife several, but I have never owned one.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:24 am |
    • Mirosal

      Billy Graham never mobilized a nation. MLK did. Graham was just one of the first to know the power of mass media when television was in its infancy.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:26 am |
    • just sayin

      Both men of prayer who acted on their prayers, changing lives and changing laws, changing a nation.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:33 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      MLK couldn't have used his belief to change anything...that would have been a direct violation of the separation of church and state. Billy Graham's opinion doesn't count...he was a christard scam artist, out to take everyone for all they are worth...kind of like Harold Camping!
      When was the last time the buybull was used in a court of law for anything outside of swearing on it (something you no longer are required to do)?

      February 6, 2012 at 7:45 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      NOW MLK said he was motivated by his faith, William Wilberforce too. Mirosal who was motivated by unbelief? Faith is something all humans need. go and ask the Propaganda Secretary of the Cuban Communist Party. Your fellow atheist.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:07 am |
    • Nope

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:11 am |
    • just sayin

      don't study studies
      studies mean nothing
      study God

      February 6, 2012 at 10:30 am |
    • just sayin

      don't study studies
      studies mean nothing
      study God.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:33 am |
    • YeahRight

      "don't study studies
      studies mean nothing
      study God."

      Yo moron, you just said studies are prejudiced so studying your God is prejudice. That explains a great deal about you stupid crhistians.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Golden rule is not the primary Commandment of Christianity. The Second Greatest Commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" is. This was written down by Moses thousands of years before Christ and Hillel. Nor did Christ claim exclusive revelation. In fact 2 him de judgement will b non-religious

      February 6, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
  13. Kyne

    Where humanism fails, religion is the only way to hold up moral values and standards among people. Per se religion taking that role is not a bad thing, but it's sad that we're relying on it, because humanism is based on education and its failing is a sign of failed or lacking education.

    February 6, 2012 at 6:17 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      The human's self-belief is as old as it gets. We have always wanted to do things our way. There are plenty of highly educated believers of all faiths. Very few atheists are in the upper echelons of education like they want us to believe. Religion stimulates rather than hinders.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:00 am |
    • Mirosal

      then please explain the reason that humanity was hindered from the late 400's all the way into the 1500's. Who held the power to crown kings and queens? Who used torture and trials to make poeple follow THEIR point of view? Hint.. it wasn't humanists.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:07 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Humanists are people who believe humans can progress without God right? There have been hundreds and thousands of of X'tian humanists not least the Popes who claimed God's power of inerrancy while living worldly lives as Super-Emperors of Western Europe-politicians in churchmen clothes

      February 6, 2012 at 9:31 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by Nii Croffie is an instance of a fallacy of Selective Attention.


      February 6, 2012 at 10:07 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Nii Croffie

      Many atheists are Humanists. Humanist written with a big "H", to signify we are talking Secular Humanism.

      Humanists believe man is capable of being both ethical and moral without the aid of the gods.

      Humanists believe in the golden rule, which did not originate with the mythical Jesus. But which preceded Him, in one form or another, by at least 500 years. The great Jewish scholar Hillel, probably was responsible for Jesus' positive form of the golden rule. Both lived in the 1st century.


      February 6, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • Mike from CT


      Is wikipedia correct that Hillel is quoted as "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.""
      If so then again this is not the positive active form, as Do unto vs do not do.

      but never the less, you are correct Jesus first did not come up with it, God put it in the hearts of men since the beginning of time. Romans 1.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      I wonder how there can be secular humanism. It is not about God no matter who practises it. That said Moses' Tabernacle is a functional model of the human brain; take out the holy objects and u have the humanist model. This was a Bronze Age EGYPTIAN PRINCE who devised the model. Modern mind?

      February 6, 2012 at 7:28 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Golden rule is not the primary rule of Christianity. The 2nd Greatest Commandment,"Love your neighbor as yourself" is. This was written down by the Prophet Moses thousands of yrs b4 Christ and Hillel. Christ never claimed exclusivity of revelation. Judgement would be non-religious in His eyes.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Amalek attacked Israel first. Christ represented GOD. Did u see Him butting into people's affairs? No. Why? Humans r personalities with freedom of choice n power of judgement. They can do evil. Did God attack those nations w'out warning? No! Check rules of war given to Moses. True love fights evil.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The judgement that the 'myth' of the fall of Adam and Eve gained for us makes you attach emotion to my use of selfish. I don't. I do not care if u kill ur baby because u want to be a model or continue schooling but a lot of women gave birth and then did these. Abortion necessary in these times? No.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:35 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      selfish is doing something without considering another individual likely to be affected by the decision. I know women who gave birth n cont.d sch. or career. Ab ortion necessary in those times? No! That u shud take issue with this is just ur judgement overiding ur conscience. I hope u love them.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:44 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      I was so shocked I ran out of there but the guy called me back to confirm what I said. I said it wasn't true but the other guys said it was. I do not feel it anymore but I learned my lesson. It was one of the most frightening incidents in my life. I didn't feel any different just the anger not mine.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Mike from CT

      Yes, Hillel used the negative form of the "Golden Rule". But, this was not authored by him. Confucius used this maxim about 500 years before.

      But note: The maxim "Don't eat yellow snow" and "Eat only white snow" are equivalent in meaning. It doesn't take a demigod to find positive and negative versions of an established maxim.

      You said, "God put it in the hearts of men since the beginning of time."

      I can't argue that. It can't be disproved. Many religions have embraced the Golden Rule. Did it come from god, or is it a logical conclusion when contemplating ethical behavior? Once authored, was it simply disseminated to other religions as many concepts were?

      If I apply Occam's Razor, my explanation of dissemination, would be the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is often correct.

      The "God Did It" explanations, have always been wrong in the past. God is infinitely complex. The solutions, so far, have not required a god.


      February 7, 2012 at 12:25 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Mike from CT

      Yes, Hillel used the negative form (Silver Rule) of the "Golden Rule". But, this was not authored by him. Confucius used this maxim about 500 years before.

      But note: The maxim "Don't eat yellow snow" and "Eat only white snow" are equivalent in meaning. It doesn't take a demigod to find positive and negative versions of an established maxim.

      You said, "God put it in the hearts of men since the beginning of time."

      I can't argue that. It can't be disproved. Many religions have embraced the Golden Rule. Did it come from god, or is it a logical conclusion when contemplating ethical behavior? Once authored, was it simply disseminated to other religions as many concepts were?

      If I apply Occam's Razor, my explanation of dissemination, would be the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is often correct.

      The "God Did It" explanations, have always been wrong in the past. God is infinitely complex. The solutions, so far, have not required a god.


      February 7, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      @ Dave
      the principal difference between a natural science and a social science is the use of physical quan ti ties and speculation. Speculative Instruments like Ocham's Razor do not make your conclusion true. This is why I don't mind learning but knowing its limit is also part of education.

      February 7, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      @Dave I respectfully disagree

      The maxim "Don't eat yellow snow" and "Eat only white snow" are not equivalent.
      It rain therefore the grass is wet because the grass is wet did it rain

      One requires action (Eat Snow) vs one can be accomplished by being passive or lazy (don't eat snow)

      Finally if the two are still equal in your opinion, would you say that not harming the poor is the same as helping the poor?

      February 7, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
  14. Nii Croffie

    Rick why do u sound bitter. I am a minister of God does that disqualify me from contributing here? I don't think so. I was here because its a belief blog and I answer questions posed to me about the God I serve. Let it go 'cos I do not hate u. I love u as myself.

    February 6, 2012 at 4:04 am |
    • rick

      Just questioning your authority as a "minister of god". Also, your logic in stating that athiests feel a certain way about god, when it is obvious that athiests do not believe in "god"

      February 6, 2012 at 6:07 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      My authority as a minister of God is questionable if it makes atheists carry me shoulder high with loud applause. Also u may be new here but the if God was good why the suffering argument has been splashed here quite a lot. I don't care whether u r X'tian or not love ur neighbor as urself.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:53 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      @nii: you have already proven your hypocrisy and bigotry....do us a favor and stfu!!! You are a very poor example of anything good and decent in this world!!!

      February 6, 2012 at 7:58 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Blessed are u when they revile, insult and say all sorts of evil against u for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad for so they persecuted godly men before u. I have only love for u. I love u as myself. May u know God soon. Amen

      February 6, 2012 at 8:12 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      You make me feel as if I'm acting a Christ and Pharisees film. I surely am not worthy for such comparison. How else do I want religious people to react. A religious man will praise his own world-view and use any means good and bad to promote it. Mirosal forgive ur upbringing and enjoy ur life.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:31 am |
    • YeahRight

      "A religious man will praise his own world-view and use any means good and bad to promote it."

      LMAO! So you admit your God does use bad to promote it like earthquakes, tsuamis, flooding the earth oh and lastly the never ending hell. It's amazing how delusional xtians can't see how cruel and horrible their God can be.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:38 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Mirosal I am Messianic Jewish. I obey the Law. What else is ur problem. Emotional maturity enables clear thinking. See how many dots and empty spaces u r using? Love, joy, peace, etc won't kill u but rather they will enhance u. Give ur life to God. A relationship with Him will grow you into a great.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:40 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Yeahright the extract u used is off key come again. As to God being cruel to people we humans put in jail I wud be happy to see them in ur backyard. I do not believe evry natural disaster is from God either. I do believe u've not studied n understood de Bible. De Key is 2 love ur neighbor as urself.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:49 am |
    • Mirosal

      By your own argument, you are in need of emotional maturity. You are incapable of clear thought. The letters "r" and "u" are NOT words. The words is "your", not "ur". Ur was a city in ancient Mesapotamia. I don't think I'll be seeing you at my next Mensa meeting, will I?

      February 6, 2012 at 8:51 am |
    • YeahRight

      "As to God being cruel to people we humans put in jail I wud be happy to see them in ur backyard. I do not believe evry natural disaster is from God either. I do believe u've not studied n understood de Bible."

      You God claims in Isaiah that it creates all disasters, or did you miss that part?

      February 6, 2012 at 8:54 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Yeah right please I am not God and as such I wud not answer ur question out of respect to my God. U can pray about it to Him. Also if u WERE addressing me n cudn't gather ur wits about u please repeat to urself that u love me as urself to clear ur head. thank u. I love u as myself.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:00 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Mirosal all my posts are less than 300 characters. If you will begrudge my SMS shorthand how petty can u be? As I said emotional maturity exercise #1. Repeat I love Nii Croffie as myself several times till you can talk rationally, coolly and respectfully to me. We r beyond Hail Mary's now.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:06 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Feels like I am toying around? Hope I don't have to continue too.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:51 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Not my intention at all. Just allowing the atheists the opportunity to hear someone who believes and ask questions. Side-stepping insults is normal to allow intelligent answers not showing off.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:56 am |
    • Pot or kettle?

      People, stop feeding the troll. Nii rarely, if ever, says anything of substance. He just tells you that if you don't think like him, that you're not smart enough (you don't have the 'EQ') without backing up any of his claims or arriving at any rational argument. He then insults people while complaining constantly he's not getting any respect. You'll have better luck trying to knock down a brick wall with your forehead than engaging in any sort of rational discussion with such an obvious troll.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:59 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Yeah Right,
      "You God claims in Isaiah that it creates all disasters, or did you miss that part?"
      Yes I did, because it is not in there... Unless you are misquoting Isaiah 45:7 and pulling it out of context, is this what you are referring to?


      February 6, 2012 at 10:07 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Root post is an instance of the Appeal to Emotion fallacy.


      February 6, 2012 at 10:10 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Pot and Kettle I thought u were asking me to stop so I was going off. Why shud I think I am smart? I don't care for rationality. All I'm saying is there is something more than being smart which is being wise. I don't think I am even 10% wise yet. I hope u all just learn about ur other options. Bye.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Unless you are misquoting Isaiah 45:7 and pulling it out of context, is this what you are referring to?"

      Oh Mikey are you clueless dude, even one of the sites you provided agrees with me in the conclusion. LMAO!

      "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

      February 6, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Also if u WERE addressing me n cudn't gather ur wits about u please repeat to urself that u love me as urself to clear ur head. thank u. I love u as myself."

      No you don't because you have absolutely no idea who I am you twit, you know NOTHING about me. No wonder you believe in you fake god that can't be proven.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Even in the God and Science article, you can see what you call a disaster, is not evil from God.

      February 6, 2012 at 11:21 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Mike from CT

      Religious humans have always had a problem with calamities that claim lives and cause suffering. Why would a just, loving god do / allow such a thing? Atheists do not see the hand of god in these events and accept that they have natural causes. Hence, atheists avoid having to decide what we did wrong to deserve a tornado.

      Ancient people believed (as do many, still to this day) that whatever calamities befell a people, were earned. When lightning rods were first invented, churches condemned their use. They believe it interfered with god's desire to send lightning bolts, to show His displeasure.

      People do not want to accept, that bad things happen to good people. Random chance and coincidence, cannot be what determines who survives and who perishes. *sigh*

      Also, if an earthquake or other disaster occurred in a rival tribe or country, it was positive proof that our god, or our belief, was superior. If by chance, a disaster occurred in our village, we looked for a cause. Often it was a woman. They have that scary va_g_ina thing going on.


      February 6, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      Why would a just, loving god do / allow such a thing? Romans, again explains that all the world has been subject to futility since the fall of man, for the hope of all things being restore. This makes God just and righteous.

      The problem for the Atheist always is evil still exist and if it is all random, then why call it a disaster, it is neither good nor bad but random.

      There are a number of character traits that are valuable only if evil exists. Compassion, for instance, is of great value, but can only exist if there is suffering. Bravery, too, is a virtue, but only if we sometimes face danger. Self-sacrifice is another great good, but can only exist if there is inter-dependence, if some people find themselves in situations where they need help from others. God created us in such a way that we would depend upon one another, that we would be drawn together to form a community. If each of us were self-sufficient, safe from suffering, then the great goods that come from this would not have been possible.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      The following reads are well verse in this area and regardless of view worth the time understanding the issue. Far better I can do in a paragraph

      Is God to Blame? Moving Beyond Pat Answers to the Problem of Suffering by Gregory A. Boyd

      Letters from a Skeptic: A Son Wrestles with His Father's Questions about Christianity by Dr. Gregory A. Boyd

      The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis

      February 6, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • kim

      Mike from CT
      So, I see God telling His people to kill the children of say Amalekites, Moabites and then God Himself killed Pharaohs’ children. This combined with God allowing children to suffer say at the hand of wicked perverted men. God also allowed followers of Baal to put babies into the hot bronze arms the statute of Baal. I cannot reconcile this with a loving God as presented to us by Jesus.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Mike from CT

      The problem of evil is difficult problem for Christians who believe their god is Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipotent (all powerful), and Omnibenevolent (all good). Some have dropped the all good attribute, since a case can be made that their god is not good.

      A number of theodicies (justifications for the existence of evil), have been developed. None are totally effective. Including the one(s) you list.

      Still, if you believe the Christian god is all knowing, all powerful, and all good...the problem persists.

      1. If the Christian god is all knowing, He would be AWARE of all the suffering on earth.
      2. If the Christian god is all good, He would WANT to rid the world of suffering / evil.
      3. If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be ABLE to rid the world of suffering / evil.
      4. Yet, evil persists.

      The Christian god with these attributes, is very unlikely to exist.

      I find it funny, that everything can be explained without positing a god. A person must jump through hoops to sustain their belief. Believers need to take off their Jesus Glasses and see reality.


      February 7, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • fred

      David Johnson
      You need to pick a different God to pick on as God is way ahead of you on this one. Jesus has already gone ahead to prepare a place for all believers where there is no more suffering, every tear will be wiped away and all those in Christ will live in joyous harmony.
      Your three points do not address the reality of what God has already promised.
      1. God is all knowing. This has been clearly stated in the Bible.
      2. God has clearly laid out His plan of Salvation for any that would accept His mercy and grace.
      3. God is all powerful, and Jesus at the Cross clearly said “it is finished” the power of Satan is broken.
      4. The consequences of living in a fallen world continue until the end of days. On that day final judgment will forever bind evil and separate it for all eternity.
      I get the sense you just do not approve of the process God has chosen to create this new heaven and the new earth. If there is a God then God can certainly choose any process to bring about the desired result. I personally cannot think of a better way to prove a heart tested for Gods Kingdom in the presence of free will. Jesus compared it to birth pains and the joy of the mother when the baby is in her arms. That moment of mother with baby in arm and tears of joy is the love of God. You are locked into the pain of childbirth which is no more yet; this is the central point of your argument. You ignore the cause of pain in child birth which goes back to Genesis and original sin then you ignore the love that God extends as He redeems a people for Himself.

      February 7, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
    • David Johnson


      All of your argument is based on your belief and the Christian bible. A book that is interpreted differently by more than 1000 denominations in North America. It is ambiguous. An ambiguous bible cannot be inerrant.

      You would first need to establish that the Christian god exits.

      Faith does not equal empirical evidence. Faith does not lead you to the truth.


      February 8, 2012 at 1:10 am |
  15. lebowski1776

    Jesus loved all.
    Christians love their own.

    February 6, 2012 at 12:16 am |
    • Crad

      So you know the heart of ALL christians? You should get a job as a mind reader.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • GodPot

      It doesn't take a mind reader to watch Christians actions to determine their motives. Christians have faith that they hate the same things God hates, and faith without works is dead, so most Christians work very hard at their hate.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:28 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      The punishment of the wicked is not our physical death but eternal death. Otherwise Ezekiel, Moses, S. Paul will still be with us. The one u fight for must be worthy of eternal life. If a pregnant woman undergoes a selfish abortion and dies she suffers the judgement of a murderer unless she repents

      February 6, 2012 at 2:54 am |
    • rick

      Nii: Pretty pretentious purporting to speak for god. Does it make YOU feel god like?

      February 6, 2012 at 3:37 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      "The one u fight for must be worthy of eternal life. If a pregnant woman undergoes a selfish abortion and dies she suffers the judgement of a murderer unless she repents"

      Wow, such arrogance and hypocrisy!!! And this apparently coming from a leader of the faith...poor example of a good christard!!!
      Provide the evidence for the eternal life...until you can do so, you have no justification for what you said.
      Keep your opinions of what a woman should do with her body to yourself...the church has no say and your god (not that it exists) is the biggest child killer ever...numerous miscarriages every year.

      February 6, 2012 at 4:52 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Ooh boy people are still imagining their own God to fight against. Miscarriage is a condition that can be caused by anything. It is not everything that can be attributed to God-good or bad. However there is a good purpose behind everything. God is an individual like u. His no. 1 purpose is'nt 2 kill

      February 6, 2012 at 8:20 am |
    • Mirosal

      Try reading that old testament sometime ... then ask again if your 'god' condones killing. Your 'god' condoned genocide as well. Your dead zombie idol jesus said that the old testament still applies, so you'd better adhere to it, because even he said it was still your 'law'. Don't want to break "god's" law now do you? If you do, at most you're a criminal .. at the least, you're a hypocrite .. so which one are you?

      February 6, 2012 at 8:24 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Mirosal remember emotional maturity=clear thinking. Tell urself repeatedly that u love me as urself to clear ur head.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:54 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Mirosal remember emotional maturity=clear thinking. Tell urself repeatedly that u love me as urself to clear ur head."

      If that is your idea of love you have a lot of growing up too do.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:56 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      YeahRight that is what is called Agape love-not a feeling but a deliberate, calculated and intentional thought. The feelings of affection generated is much more powerful than Romance or motherly love. It makes u rational in ur approach to things.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:13 am |
    • GodPot

      " It is not everything that can be attributed to God-good or bad."

      I see, so you want to give God credit for most of the good stuff and you pray and thank him for his active role in your life, but it's not God when things go wrong or bad things happen like miscarriages because that's not the God you want to imagine worshiping. How convenient for you Christians, and how utterly ridiculous from any logical point of view.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:16 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      if u perform the exercise u won't have to pick out what I write like a Sunday Sch boy but u will understand what I write and give me feedback in a non-hostile tone that will not antagonise me. I actually do love u as myself just that it is not Romantic.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:17 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Godpot build a relationship with Him n u will understand why I also wrote that there is good in all that happens. If u pick and choose the path that appeals to u or u understand that means u r not understanding much. Take ur time b4 u answer.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:23 am |
    • Pot or kettle?

      Which one are you, Nii? Your posts are among the most smug and condescending on these boards.

      February 6, 2012 at 9:28 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      @Nii: As I believe is very clear...I don't believe in your god any more than I believe in any other god. I am not wrong in stating updated facts. You, on the other hand, are viciously wrong in stating 2000 year old facts!!! Stop thinking Atheists are angry with god...it's damn difficult to be angry with something we do not accept as fact. You think that a woman is wrong to abort but yet you only base this on your own belief's; you state there are numerous reasons women miscarry and as much as that may be true, if your god is all knowing and all powerful why is it that these miscarriages are happening? What gives you the authority to state whether or not a woman should be allowed to abort? You have stated in other posts about the sin of hom.ose.xuality but yet science has widely determined that there is no crime in this and that it is in fact natural-who exactly do you think you are to attempt to over-rule science? Does your buybull not teach you to treat people with kindness and respect and not to judge? By not following that book but yet preaching it, you are a hypocrite. You are also a bigot and a horrible example of a good christian. You should not be allowed to stand at any pulpit and preach to anyone...your are only lying to them and misleading them. You think Atheists are bad but we're not the ones telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies; we're not the ones threatening gays/lesbians with eternal damnation for something that is natural; we're not the ones threatening people with eternal torture for not believing without evidence....we believe that our world would be a better place if people like you did the right thing and kept your noses out of government/public affairs; the affairs of ho.mo.se.xuals and the affairs of a woman's right to choose. We have been held back far too long by stupid thinking by the likes of you. Fairy tales are for children..time to grow up!

      February 6, 2012 at 10:23 am |
    • captain america

      Grow up, like Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. a man of God, a man of prayer, a man of vision that changed America for the better. Grow up like that, you snot nosed Canadian? There's your sign

      February 6, 2012 at 10:28 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      @CA: Go back to your bridge you stupid christard troll...you have nothing valid to add to this so do the world a favor and stfu!!! Stop using captain...you are more like a slug!

      February 6, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      @CA: Go back to your bridge you stupid christard troll...you have nothing valid to add to this.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • GodPot

      "If u pick and choose the path that appeals to u or u understand that means u r not understanding much. Take ur time b4 u answer." lol

      Ok, Nii, I need to take more time, would reading the bible cover to cover more than 3 times and being a Christian minister for over 10 years be enough? It's likely more than you have done yourself from reading your childish posts. It is most Christians who answer before they think because they believe they already know the truth because some peer told them "this is truth, don't question it or think to hard about it because if you do that shows a lack of faith!!" Ignorant fools.

      February 6, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • just sayin

      Captain America
      Did you know that the Canadian National Anthem was a prayer? Says right in it "God keep our land..."

      February 6, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • captain america

      'liar' prevails a butt in canadian says our beloved pastor and patriot Martin Luther King Jr. is not valid? Who the F does it think it is?There's your sign

      February 6, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      No reading the Bible cover to cover over 20 times like I have is not enough Godpot! Neither is being a Minister for 10 years. Childish posts come from a childlike faith which seeks truth but never claims to know. I became a X'tian reading theology books on various religions. I knew the Bible b4 dat.

      February 6, 2012 at 11:44 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      I started my search wit Christ' saying that he who wants to be great must be as a child. now I'm on the Greatest Commandments and John 3:16. Practising not knowing is key. I see truth in all religions including atheism. I do not hate sinners of any kind. Der is no gay gene found by scientists so far

      February 6, 2012 at 11:54 am |
    • GodPot

      "I started my search wit Christ' saying that he who wants to be great must be as a child." "Practising not knowing is key." That says all I need to know about you. You don't know how to spell, your writing skills leave much to be desired and yet you are proud of your ignorance like it's some badge of honor to believe in something you can barely verbalize.

      Also, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      I find it sad that anyone will second guess Christians but well that is the world and worldly Christians don't do our image any favours I concede. My hope is that we all learn the truth in loving our neighbor as ourselves. The Jesus I know was a spiritual man killed by religious people.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Hahaha but atheism is not "not collecting stamps". It is a very strong belief system which motivates its followers to behave similar to religious believers. U pick n choose b'cos u do not want to hear. Ur emotions get in the way. I don't because my emotions are maturing. I can listen w'out anger.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:17 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Ethical monotheism is not to destroy humans. It endeavours to help us behave in an emotionally mature manner. This is what I see most atheists lack. Agnosticism is more spiritual than atheism in this respect. Emotional maturity helps us to be more rational and ethical. If ur religion helps u fine.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Nii Croffie

      You said: "Godpot build a relationship with Him n u will understand why I also wrote that there is good in all that happens. "

      Hard to see what good can come from a baby born without a brain. Or a child dying from cancer.

      Hard to see what good comes from a fawn burned in a forest fire, who lies there suffering, when no human is around. What is learned? Why is it not just gratuitous suffering?

      Hard to see what good comes from a child attacked by a monster. Their last moments, ones of fear and pain.

      Good and bad things happen in just about the proportion, that I would expect if there were no god.


      February 6, 2012 at 12:40 pm |
    • fred

      David Johnson
      My hats off to you ! You are correct and in agreement with God who said I will let it rain on the wicked and the righteous. God will allow the Christian baby and atheist baby to suffer. The key is that "I will wipe away every tear" is the game changer. Please do not confuse what see in the short segment of time called our life with eternal timelessness. Those tears are wiped away with an eternal love. IF you beleive the Bible it is good to see the whole not the parts as God is concerned about your whole life and the whole of eternity and this breif split second where we track time needs to kept in perspective.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      I thought about coincidences for a long time till one day I did something that was absolutely deliberate without my control. It was as if i was angry for somebody else. I no longer sit on the fence. Forgive me if I no longer understand what it means to not be sure whether there is God.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:50 pm |
    • GodPot

      "Please do not confuse what see in the short segment of time called our life with eternal timelessness." Oh, okay. I will try not to confuse what I know with what you don't know. You don't seem to know, or even have the ability to explain, what eternal timelessness is because humans have no reference point to do so. Everything we as humans can define has had a begining and will eventually have an end, from stars and galaxy's to thoughts and concepts. I wonder how well you would do on a physics exam when you are not allowed to respond "God did it" to any question.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • GodPot

      "I thought about coincidences for a long time till one day I did something that was absolutely deliberate without my control."

      "de·lib·er·ate/diˈlibərit/Adjective: Done consciously and intentionally: "a deliberate attempt to provoke conflict". Verb: Engage in long and careful consideration"

      Thats like saying the blind guy is your eyewitness or "I meant to shoot him on accident"...

      "Forgive me if I no longer understand what it means to not be sure whether there is God." As long as you are not out trying to impose your beliefs on everyone around you then you are forgiven. If you, like many other Christians, think it's your duty to convert everyone else to your "no longer understanding" understanding, then you are not forgiven and those of us who see you as the brainless zombie zealots you are trying to eat all the non-christian brains will continue to oppose you. This world needs no more dumbing down, any dumber and we will have no chance at surviving the next 100 years.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Godspot for all ur we are the intelligent ones bombast how many atheists are in the world for every intelligent human to be atheist. I find such irrational claims unbecoming of rational minds. Humans are emotional not rational beings according to science so stop burying your head in the sand.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • fred

      Jesus is not about physics or math or science as you can tell by reading exactly what Jesus said. The Bible is simply a story about God redeeming a people for his own. In other words God is calling anyone that wants to spend time with Him. You reject God for various reasons and science is just an excuse to support your position. Science can neither support or tear down the truth of God.
      If you put down your physics book and Dawkins manual you will read that your life style and heart basically reflects that of the Greeks 2,000 years ago. I am not sure how my 2,000 year old source is any less antique than yours but there is a big difference. The Greeks were proud of their knowledge and philosphy and cutting towards simple minded christians. My source which is from the living God has changed my life 180 degrees. I was convicted of my sin by that 2,000 year old source and God opened up an entire new reality that includes Christ which I rejected before. I am overjoyed that someone took the time to give me a Bible when I did not need or want one because there was no sin in my life just a bunch of sick bible thumpers. Yeiks, now I am one.
      I do not tump my Bible to cut you down just share my experience. I would want everyone to be free from the bondage the world puts on us.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Intelligence quotient is a function of the Emotional Quotient. If u r atheist or a believer that does not guarantee either. I am tired of this lame we are rational and we are intelligent and God did it on a Physics exam. That is like writing the gene sequence for frog on a Theology paper.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • GodPot

      @Nii – Since you seem unable to articulate your point, I won't bother to respond.

      @fred "Jesus is not about physics or math or science as you can tell by reading exactly what Jesus said." If your Jesus is God and created all things than he IS physics, math & science. None of them should in any way contradict your God if it was your God who created the universal laws that all physics must obey.

      "Physics is a natural science that involves the study of matter and its motion through spacetime, along with related concepts such as energy and force. More broadly, it is the general analysis of nature, conducted in order to understand how the universe behaves." – Wiki

      My point is that Christians seem to ignore science and physics in favor of "God did it" whenever there is something you are unable to explain using the tools you claim God gave us, which are the natural laws that govern the universe. The logical man would either accept that they do not know enough to formulate an explanation for why God can break the rules when nothing else seems to be able to, or accept that there is no God.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      @CA: You are the one with the issue here...you dish the garbage but can't take it...how pathetic of a human you are!! We are never going away...why the hell can't you accept that??? This is the world wide web..not belonging to the USA and as much I love your country you give it a bad name.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Indeed Godspot u can't respond because u do not have a clue what I am talking about. Atheists have given me all sorts of false theories like Theory of Evolution of Viruses and such. I don't think for one such irrational thinking will come from a Bhuddhist nuclear physicist or Methodist neurosurgeon.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Now where is pot and kettle? Atheists who use Wikipedia and National Geographic Channel claim to know Physics like every Brit can coach a soccer team. Worst of all is the ideology of we are intelligent but Christians are not. I know stereotyping is irrational so why do atheists think they are not.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      I am amazed at Godspot and co who issue Fatwahs like I am not going to talk to u because of spelling and run to go and check material on Wikipedia. if u don't understand my spelling then why did u respond in the first place. Doesn't make any sense. If u r irrationally fearful it is a christop.hob ia

      February 6, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • GodPot

      @Nii – It is not just the fact that you seem unable to spell, but that you can't make an intelligible argument that I was referring to. As for my use of Wikipedia's definition of physics, do you refute it? If so, then again you prove my point and are just another ignorant fool hiding your lack of knowledge behind a smokescreen of supposed faith. I simply feel sorry for you and will make sure and devote more of my time and tax dollars to help educate others so they do not have to live such a lazy and hateful existence.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      After ignorant, fool, n various other verbal abuse hurled @ me I wonder how rational it is to add my hatefulness. Well I love u as myself whether atheist or not. However I do not see how hatred will help u win my heart to ur wisdom. I will rather u were a loving person too. This is not religion.

      February 6, 2012 at 6:39 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      In my short experience with atheists it is sad to see most of them seem to think verbal abuse n hatred helps them. let go n relax. There is a better life of love n happiness if u will just turn the corner. I hope u make the change. Ur tax dollars can't be wasted when u clearly need anger mgt classes

      February 6, 2012 at 6:45 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      If u really wanted to make an intelligent arguement u wudn't have started with a prejudiced statement concerning hateful Christians. No one hates u. most likely u hate us as much as u hate urself which is likely to be the root of ur christophobia. LOVE so that u can become RATIONAL.

      February 6, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • GodPot

      @Nii – "After ignorant, fool, n various other verbal abuse hurled @ me I wonder how rational it is to add my hatefulness."

      "If a pregnant woman undergoes a selfish abortion and dies she suffers the judgement of a murderer unless she repents"

      "Mirosal remember emotional maturity=clear thinking. Tell urself repeatedly that u love me as urself to clear ur head."

      "Childish posts come from a childlike faith which seeks truth but never claims to know. I became a X'tian reading theology books on various religions. I knew the Bible b4 dat."

      "one day I did something that was absolutely deliberate without my control."

      You are doing fine hurling all the ignorance and hate you like on your own. I was merely attempting to put a mirror in your face so that you may see what everyone else see's when they read your drivel.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • GodPot

      A wise man is sitting by a well drawing water for himself and his sheep when a stranger approaches and asks the man how he is. The man reply's "I am very happy, I have my water, I have my sheep, life is good." to which the stranger reply's "Ah, but you are not as happy as you should be, since if you do not give my God 10% of your water and 10% of your sheep and worship him as the creator then you will be tortured after death for eternity!!"

      The man says "Well how can I know this to be true since it will only happen after my death and so far no one has ever come back to say one way or the other?"

      "True" says the stranger, so if it will make it any easier I will have my army that is outside the gates take our 10% now and if you don't bend your knee to our God then we will be forced to remove your head."

      "I see" says the man "then I will submit and bend my knee, for without a head, a happy man I would not be."

      February 6, 2012 at 7:49 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Hahaha... I love ur joke but I'm not religious hence I told u n Mirosal about what made me tick in the next two quotes after the 1st. Ignorance is not knowing that Science uses the childlike faith principle. I find it funny that u shud mention. 'Selfish' is it evil or not. U seem to attach evil 2 it

      February 6, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      What I did deliberately without my control was that I prophesied. I told someone something he needed to hear as if in a fit of anger. We were both joking about modern-day 'prophets' of God. I cud hear the thoughts as if they were mine but I wud not have done it if u gave me a million on my own.

      February 6, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Ashrakay what is childminded about being able 2 exercise your conscience 2 the full. As I said they were NOT children when they sinned. They had a fully developed sense of right and wrong just not de powers of Judgement. The Tree of Knowledge of Good n Evil, Tree of Conscience translation is wrong.

      February 7, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Remember that Eve saw the fruit and realized it was good to eat and worthy to make one wise. Judgement is what the Devil proposed not Conscience. Judgement makes u like God but without immortality it is too much knowledge. Eternal Life makes u child-minded accepting God's Judgement.

      February 7, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      ASHRAKAY There is nothing childminded about conscience. I said they fell as adults. they had a fully developed conscience. Then Eve saw that the fruit was good to eat and worthy 2 make one wise. Judgement without infinite knowledge of eternity provided by immortality is wrong because it is unfair.

      February 7, 2012 at 9:38 pm |
    • ashrakay

      @Nii Croffie, You REALLY do buy into the whole garden of eden story, don't you? This alone is shocking enough, but you also seem to be taking great liberties with the story and imposing your own convenient interpretation to justify god's actions. You talk about a conscience as if it is something bestowed on people, yet we know that children have to develop a conscience. They do this by experimentation with their actions to see what kind of result they will have returned. This is science and I suspect it's a little out of your paradigm. If I step into your view then, I should assume that Adam and Eve were created with a fully developed conscience, given to them by god, with absolutely no experience of right and wrong or the reward/consequence system that the brain chemistry operates on by every other living creature on this planet.

      Then you have to ask yourself, why did god put the tree there to begin with, if not to test them? It seems that if so much were riding on this 1 choice to eat a fruit or not to (i.e., endless generations of suffering, disease, toil, violence...), then they must KNOW that these were the consequences of their actions. Otherwise, again, they were not fully prepared for the consequences of said action and could not exercise an act of conscience. So do you believe that Eve and Adam knew this would be the result of their action? If not, we are back to what I call the innocence of the child mind. If they did know that taking a bite of fruit would cause such suffering, why would they not do everything in their capability to avoid this tree? In fact, why wouldn't they try to destroy it? To do otherwise or even knowingly eat the fruit would mean they must truly be corrupt before eating.

      I mean, I don't want to be the destroyer of your comfort zone. Personally, I find these back-and-forths beneath a respectable level of human discourse. But, if you find yourself in a sinking boat because there's holes all through it, and you're rushing around ripping off your own clothes to fill the holes... Maybe stop blaming the water and realize that the boat is the problem. A) you can most likely swim on your own, or B) one of us will be along to help you out.

      February 8, 2012 at 6:03 pm |
  16. Observer

    It's great that Christians are so concerned about prost-itutes. So why can't they extend this Golden Rule application to gays and pro-choice people?

    February 5, 2012 at 11:36 pm |
    • Chad

      You mean, as in helping them out of the bondage that they are in?

      February 5, 2012 at 11:42 pm |
    • Crad

      What is a "golden rule application?"

      February 6, 2012 at 12:00 am |
    • Observer

      The application of the Golden Rule is the opposite of the hypocrisy of many Christians who love to preach, but not practice, it.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:10 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Do u mean "I love and respect my neighbor as myself just as he or she is, just the way he or she is no matter what because YHWH loves us all as Himself with all His Life just as we are, just the way we are no matter what."?

      February 6, 2012 at 12:14 am |
    • Cocopuf

      You mean, even if your choice, is unnatural and contrary to the Word Of God?

      February 6, 2012 at 12:15 am |
    • Observer


      Being pro-choice isn't "contrary to the Word Of God"

      Read the Bible sometime.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:21 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Observer it is best applied by everybody who knows it including you. If u think pro-choice is in the Bible educte us on why it is so!

      February 6, 2012 at 12:33 am |
    • Observer

      Nii Croffie,

      The Bible never mentions the word "abortion", but it does offer more to support abortion than to oppose it. Actions speak louder than words, especially when there are no words.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:35 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      I see! I believe u r using the rule tht gray areas are not covered by biblical morality! Well this rule is mitigated by the rule of conscience. If u feel it is wrong don't do or promote it. Also if ur friend feels it is wrong don't do it". Both rules by S. Paul.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:41 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Second what are the "action speak louder than words especially where there r no words"? What actions?

      February 6, 2012 at 12:48 am |
    • Observer

      Nii Croffie,

      Nope. Not mentioning abortion by itself is not the evidence. There's several factors, mostly involving God's indifference to pregnant women.

      The closest the Bible comes to abortion is where it talks about someone injuring a pregnant woman causing a miscarriage. The penalty is a fine (you know, like a parking ticket, maybe?).

      According to the Bible, if a person injures another person, the penalty is "an eye for an eye". Obviously, a fine IS NOT the same.

      Any problems if we follow the Bible and abortion doctors just pay a fine to the FATHER (according to the Bible)?

      February 6, 2012 at 12:49 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      OBSERVER I am Messianic Jewish so we study the Law of Moses. The Law an eye for an eye IS in relation to injuring a pregnant woman.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:18 am |
    • Crad

      Observer. You are going to have one heck of a hangover. At least, i sure hope that your problem is temporary.. Because you are a ball of bad logic and random chaotic thought patterns. You seem to be chasing your tail here.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:19 am |
    • Observer

      Nii Croffie,

      Since you are Jewish, this apparently is what you believe and follow:
      – Exodus 21:22-25 "Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage as the result of an injury caused by someone who
      is fighting. If she isn't badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and
      the judges approve. But if she is seriously injured, the payment will be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for
      tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, cut for cut, and bruise for bruise.”

      February 6, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • Observer


      GUESS again. Why not read the Bible before embarassing yourself?

      The Bible tells us that at one point, God slowly and torturously MURDERED every PREGNANT WOMAN, CHILD, BABY and FETUS on the face of the Earth.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:24 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Now as u can see in ur first submission a pregnant woman's life is precious to God. Now explain your second to me.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:37 am |
    • Observer

      Nii Croffie,

      No one argued about an "eye for an eye" for a person. You've tried to change subjects unsuccessfully.

      For the second case, it should be expected that people who have read the Bible know about the Great Flood.

      February 6, 2012 at 1:44 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Oh forgive me if I've made it seem so but I just woke up. Anyway there were several instances pregnant women got killed at God's displeasure not just the Flood. In all cases it was not without warning. If God enjoyed it He wudn't have said He wudn't do it again. Let me finish ok...

      February 6, 2012 at 2:13 am |
    • Observer

      Nii Croffie,

      Killing pregnant women kills their fetus. Obviously, God didn't care about the fetuses.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:15 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      The atheist say if God was good then the world wud not be full of wickedness but then they cry for pregnant women who break the rules. Remember the Angel of Justice. If u break rules without punishment others do too and soon anarchy follows and God will not allow wickedness to flourish...

      February 6, 2012 at 2:19 am |
    • Observer

      Nii Croffie,

      It's too late to continue any longer.

      Bottom line: the Bible is full of commands from God to kill women and NOT ONCE did God give a rip if the women to be killed were pregnant or not. NOT ONCE did God give a rip about a fetus. So much for all the hypocritical arguments about the "rights of the baby".

      You have every right to be anti-choice, but don't use the Bible as an excuse.

      Good night.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:26 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      In our eschatology Adam n Eve sinned as adults hence pre-puberty children are innocent and they go to be with Him without Judgement because they have conscience but no judgement. As Christ said judge not and you will not be judged. God will retard wickedness because wicked women train wicked kids.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:27 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      OBSERVER U r doing the same thing again. U accused me falsely of being h.o.m.o.p.h.o.b.i. c remember?

      February 6, 2012 at 2:30 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Now u want pregnant women to be given a pass because of their pregnancy to continue generations who do not listen to God and are extremely lawless? Accordingly X'tians shud stop preaching ethics and emotional maturity (spiritual development). God rules the Universe and any good ruler punishes crime.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:36 am |
    • Observer

      "pre-puberty children are innocent and they go to be with Him without Judgement because they have conscience but no judgement."

      So they automatically go to heaven. There can't be ANY BETTER argument for abortion than that. Obviously, being tempted by all the evil in life greatly restricts that probability. Guaranteed heaven. EXCELLENT point. Good night.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:38 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      As an adult u demand justice of your ruler but accuse him of wickedness for enforcing it. If those pregnant women cared for their babies more than God did they wud have repented like the pregnant women of Nineveh. God is a person. He has feelings and weighs decisions. He'll protect good against evil

      February 6, 2012 at 2:42 am |
    • Observer

      – Ezekiel 18:3,20 “As I live," declares the Lord God, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.” “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

      February 6, 2012 at 2:43 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      The abortionist's crime is not a crime of the baby who is INNOCENT it is the judgement by a human being to take another human life who does not threaten hers directly because of selfish purposes. That is why artificial abortions are allowed when mother is threatened. Otherwise it is murder.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:49 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      The punishment of the wicked is not physical death but eternal death. Otherwise Ezekiel, Job, Moses and S. Paul will still be with us. When a woman dies committing selfish abortion she has a murderer's judgement unless she repents. The BABY IS INNOCENT. It is the WOMAN WE CARE ABOUT.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:59 am |
    • rick

      "The atheist say if God was good then the world wud not be full of wickedness"

      Atheists do not try to define the goodness or badness of a being in which they do not believe.

      February 6, 2012 at 3:45 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      "The atheist say if God was good then the world wud not be full of wickedness but then they cry for pregnant women who break the rules"

      First off we say nothing of your god...we simply do not accept that it exists and the god of your buybull if it ever existed is an evil character who if it were to exist would not get away with its crimes. As for pregnant women who break the rules...what exactly are you saying??? It is their body, their rights...none of your damn business nor that of any practicing person. They are not breaking any rules that actually have pertinence in society and in the grand scheme of it, those laws that we follow are the only ones that matter..try using your buybull in a court to defend why a woman should not aobrt...it wouldn't hold ground-there is a reason it is not allowed to be used as evidence. Stop brainwashing people with your delusions...until you have evidence to back what you say, the stories you believe are just that-stories, no real truth behind them.

      Observer mentioned the great flood...science has already provided evidence to state that this was impossible to have happened and personally given what science has done for us, I'll take science over the buybull any day...at least we know it is verifiable!

      February 6, 2012 at 5:02 am |
    • Mirosal

      Unless somsone has a uterus, they need to STFU about pro-life or pro-choice. It's an individual decision to make, not one to be made by coersion or threats, which is what x-tians and other religious zealots seem to be very good at. So for people like Nii ... as I have stated, the minute YOU get pregnant, then you can have a voice. Until then, it's the woman's body, and her right. You and your ilk are just blowhards trying to get others to conform to YOUR point of view, whether by hook or by crook. In both great countries on this continent (U.S. and Canada– if Mexico were so grreat why does its people keep running north? lol), the buybull and any other religious texts have no voice in the legislatures in the federal, state or provincial level, and for very good reason. So unless you find someone to knock YOU up, you need to SHUT up.

      February 6, 2012 at 5:50 am |
    • pervert alert

      'gay' is a word stolen by qu eers to attempt to bring their sick perverted life style to acceptance. For all history law enforcement has recognized the acts of ho mo se xuality as criminal, and most often their victims have been the young.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:14 am |
    • Mirosal

      @ perv alert ... I have news for you. The only places in which being gay is a crime today would be in backwards theocracies. It is legal in the entire Western world. So go ahead and move to any of the Muslim-controlled nations, I'm sure they'll be glad to have you. Let's see your statistics on your "victims". If it is as illegal as you say it is, then law enforcement would have records, correct? Ok then, let's see the numbers.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:20 am |
    • just sayin

      Talk to your local pd.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:22 am |
    • pervert alert

      There is a 1950s psa detailing the criminal co-relation between the ho mo se xuals and child abuse readily available on the web.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:27 am |
    • Mirosal

      the 1950's??? oh yeah .. GREAT reference there.. a time when if you weren't a white man in a grey flannel siut (watch THAT movie) then McCarthy would send his goons, or get the FBI to send theirs, after you. A time of pure paranoia. A mere accusation would land you in jail for awhile. We grew out of the '50s ... time to outgrow your prejudice also.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:32 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Why is it that Mirosal claims happiness and is so bitter. Are u still running from ur childhood. Well u don't have to anymore. If u forgive and forget u will discover the benefits of spiritual development (emotional maturity) which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faithfulness among others. Love

      February 6, 2012 at 7:34 am |
    • pervert alert

      Your kind may not like it but ho mo se xuality is a criminal perversion of life, it is not "gay" it is sick twisted activity. Repent and turn from it before you hurt anyone else.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:39 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Every religion affords its adherents the door of spiritulity i.e. to love ur neighbor as urself. I have heard from atheists who have taken advantage of this. However it is a hard task and I hope a lot more religious (including atheists) try. It helps emotional maturity which enable rational thought

      February 6, 2012 at 7:41 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      PervAlert and Nii are both bigots!!! They both think that being ho.mo.se.xual is a sin when in fact science has proven otherwise. It is people like these two that hold civilization back. You two are hypocrites ans bad examples of christards!!! Do some god damn research outside of your book of delusions for a change. Using a reference from the 50's counts for nothing when we are 60 years ahead of that time...information changes but then again we couldn't ask you to understand or accept that given that you still believe in a book written over 2000 years ago by men who never met one another and inspired by man. Mirosal isn't bitter or anything near that...Mirosal, much like most other Atheists is just tired of you spreading lies without evidence to back it...prove your god exists and we'll believe you but until you have physical proof (not your buybull) you have no valid argument!!! Get over your arrogance...you're not so special...you're no better than anyone else. And before you say it, I'm not angry...I'm sickened that you are too blinded by bearing false witness to see reality.

      February 6, 2012 at 7:55 am |
    • Mirosal

      Doesn't one of their 10 "commandments" (just what kind of deity COMMANDS 'its' followers anyway? How very petty, vain and arrogant) specifically say that "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy heighbor"? ... yep .. typical christard ... a living, breathing, walking hypocrisy

      February 6, 2012 at 8:02 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Nii Croffie

      When god breathed the "life" into man, in the Creation story, would this not indicate that life begins with a human's first breath?

      Curious in Racist Arizona

      February 6, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • Anon

      Preferred use for bibles. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000424635/polls_456990_c3a0_625x625_0311_749411_poll_xlarge.jpeg

      February 6, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
    • I_get_it


      Heh... then it ends up in the 'sceptic' tank, where it belongs!

      February 6, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • ashrakay

      @Nii Croffie, Out of curiosity, if abortion is so wrong in the eyes of god, and it is killing an innocent baby, why doesn't he do anything to stop it? In fact, it would seem that he is allowing it to happen more and more every year. Surely he knows the people who would do it, couldn't he simply make them infertile, or the doctors that perform these acts, die or be late for their appointments.... Is he just letting a lot of innocent babies die to prove a point? Would you let a bunch of innocent babies die to prove a point?

      February 6, 2012 at 10:10 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Ashrakay the story of the fall of Adam and Eve is simply this. Two trees-Eternal Life/Judgement. a choice. wrong choice. human judgement acquired. human responsibility for evil. God punishes. God promises Messiah. We can kill. We have the power. just as we can stop it.

      February 7, 2012 at 3:43 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Judaeo-Christianity does not see humans as powerless individuals. We took on the powers of God to judge as against accepting His Judgement. It is not about proving a point but then destroying people for crime is useless when you can help dem reform. Humans have de power to exclude God or include Him

      February 7, 2012 at 3:53 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      I believe if America had His powers we'll witness countless pre-emptive wars n endless collateral damage. It is even better that Iran doesn't either. The principle of rights, privileges n responsibilities are based on the Law of God.

      February 7, 2012 at 4:25 am |
    • ashrakay

      @Nii Croffie, So you're saying god put 2 newly formed, child-mind innocent people into a garden and gave them a choice. He placed the temptation right in front of them. They having no experience making such choices only got 1 opportunity to make a mistake. There was no, "do this again and that's it..." One choice for 2 children. When they made the mistake, he shifted all future blame for anything that went wrong to them. He takes no responsibility for putting the tree in front of them or creating the very being that tempted them.

      February 7, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
  17. Reality

    A possible solution?

    Only for the newbies:

    Video tape the situation i.e.the time and date, the girl getting into the truck, the truck's license plate and the pimp's car and license plate and run said tapes on YouTube. Shame is a great deterrent as are wives of truckers who find that their husbands are not being faithful. Complaints made to the trucking companies and to those companies paying these truckers to haul their products would also help to put a quick end to said practice especially when said truckers lose their jobs over their obscene activities. With the sophisticated video cameras/recorders available today, the taping can be done at a safe distance.

    February 5, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      That actually sounds reasonable.... when are you going to start?

      February 6, 2012 at 10:11 am |
    • Reality

      As soon as I move to NC.

      February 6, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
  18. ComeBreakMe

    One thing is certain. Danielle Mitchell is one good looking Christian Lady!

    February 5, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
  19. JohnnyCloud1

    This is really an encouraging story. I like that cnn shows christians that aren't ridiculous and fanatical

    February 5, 2012 at 10:01 pm |
    • rh

      True, and I'm an atheist. Most of my Christian friends (those under 80, anyway) accept me and have no problem with me being an atheist. I trust from this story this woman doing good work would do the same.

      The rest of you, get out of the Old Testament and into the New.

      February 7, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
  20. Odetojoy

    A worthy cause indeed. Even if you could completely eliminate human trafficking from the face of the earth, there will be something else to take it's place. The problem lies in the hearts of men. Unfortunately it is our nature to exploite one another. We have to overcome our nature and learn how to treat each other. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Sounds easy, but it will take a lot of work. It is not within our ability to change ourselves. We have to learn about our true nature, and then willingly expose our hearts to the light of the Creator.

    February 5, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
    • Cocopuf

      You couldn't have said any better Odetojoy. Amen.

      February 6, 2012 at 12:27 am |
    • mendrys

      I would tend to agree with you but unfortunately far too many of your bretheren use the argument that "hey, I'm fallible, I'm not perfect like god" to excuse their offenses as the result of "Satan". As well, to far too many the phrase "We have to learn about our true nature, and then willingly expose our hearts to the light of the Creator." means unquestioning acceptance of some other persons literal intepretation of some poorly translated bronze age texts.

      February 6, 2012 at 11:31 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.