February 13th, 2012
04:03 PM ET

NYC public school ban on church services

(CNN)–CNN's Susan Candiotti talks with a New York City church on last day of services before ban on renting space in schools.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church • Church and state • New York • TV • United States

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soundoff (163 Responses)
  1. Enoch

    Atheist gangs with their extremist agenda! Soon, when you reach the age of 70 you will be lying on your bed and shouting for help from God, why? why? why?

    February 15, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • evolvedDNA

      Enoch..what are you talking about?

      February 15, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Roving gangs of atheists will soon descend upon you!
      They'll take you to a dark dungeon for questioning and should you show any signs of faith, you'll be strapped to the rack and forced to confess your irrationality.

      At the moment, they're studying the old Vatican manuals for how to hold a proper inquisition.
      They don't want to make the same mistakes as the citizens of Salem.

      February 15, 2012 at 1:13 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      U guyz are just crazy! lol

      February 15, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Atheists don't have to look far though. I believe Chinese atheists are highly successful and Pol Pot was awesome. The Chinese are only afraid of the fate of Ancient Rome thats why they are restrained. Spain did not fare much better either.

      February 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
  2. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things.

    February 14, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
  3. William Demuth

    No Preachers in Schools!

    I mean REALLY people!

    Whats next? Keeping NAMBLA members out of the Boy Scouts?

    February 14, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
  4. jimtanker

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

    February 14, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      You mean just like the disciples and the 1st century Christians did not?

      February 14, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Luke 5:5-9

      When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into deep water, and let down[b] the nets for a catch.”
      Simon answered, “Master, we’ve worked hard all night and haven’t caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the nets.” When they had done so, they caught such a large number of fish that their nets began to break. So they signaled their partners in the other boat to come and help them, and they came and filled both boats so full that they began to sink. When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!” For he and all his companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had taken,

      February 14, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
    • jimtanker

      I can quote nonsensical bible quotes too.

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • jimtanker

      Or how about this old classic:

      “All right,” the Lord said. “You may bake your bread with cow dung instead of human dung.”
      –Ezekiel 4:12-15

      February 14, 2012 at 12:25 pm |
    • David Johnson

      Bible says lots of things. Doesn't mean it is true. Before you can prove the bible is god's word, you must prove there is a god.

      Example: The Return of Jesus

      Once upon a time:

      [Jesus Speaking]
      Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

      Hmm... Jesus may not have known the day or the hour, but He did predict a 1st Century return. How can the Messiah and God incarnate be wrong? Can you think of a reason?

      A number of New Testament passages indicate that Christ was supposed to return before his generation had died. This would have been sometime in the first century AD.

      First, there is the testimony of Jesus himself, who explicitly stated that some of his disciples would not die until Jesus inst_ituted the Kingdom, and that his generation would not pass away until all his prophecies of the end of the world had been fulfilled:
      Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

      Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

      Jesus' speech in 24 and 25 was given, when He was alone with His disciples.

      Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

      Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

      In this discourse, Jesus makes a number of assertions about the fate of his disciples. One of the signs of the end would be the persecution of his disciples:
      Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

      While tradition records that the disciples were persecuted and martyred, this was not followed by the return of Christ, as he promised. Would they die for a lie? Apparently... Or at least for something they were told and believed. LOL.

      Jesus instructed his disciples to hurry because the time for preaching before his return was relatively short:
      Mathew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

      Hmm... Seems like 2000 years and change, would be more than enough time. Even if you slept in and stopped for coffee. Let's see, Liar; Lunatic; or Lord. Or, the one I like, Fictional.

      The Apostle Paul, too, seemed to think that Christ would return for his generation:
      I Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      Note that Paul twice uses the phrase '...we which are alive and remain...'.

      This seems to preclude the theory that Paul was speaking of some far future generation. Paul made a similar assertion in First Corinthians:
      I Corinthians 15:51,52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      Note that Paul said that '...we shall not all sleep...'. In other words, he expected that at least some of his generation would not see death.

      Again, there is nothing in the text to indicate that Paul was speaking about some far future generation.

      Paul reiterated his belief in a soon return of Christ in the Book of Romans:
      Romans 13:11-12 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

      And John:
      1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

      The other New Testament writers had similar thoughts about the iminence of Christ's return:
      James 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

      I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

      I Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

      The Apocalyptic Book of Revelations repeatedly has Christ saying that he would return soon:
      Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly....

      By no stretch of the imagination can 2,000 years be considered 'quickly' LOL

      And, to say That a thousand years is like a day to the lord, is dumb. A thousand years is not like a day to humans. An almighty god would certainly understand what "quickly" would mean to humans.

      Jesus was wrong. Jesus has been really busy being really dead, for the last 2,000 years.

      According to historian Charles Freeman, Early Christians expected Jesus to return within a generation of his death. When the second coming did not occur, the early Christian communities were thrown into turmoil." – Wikipedia: Freeman, Charles. The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and Fall of Reason, p. 133. Vintage. 2002.

      I know you will want to "spin" this. You must! I will help you by giving you a laundry list of theological gymnastics that believers use:
      Believer's Rule of Thumb: If a bible verse furthers the cause, it is to be taken literally. If a bible verse is detrimental to the cause, it is either: taken out of context; is allegorical; refers to another verse somewhere else; is a translation or copyist's error; means something other than what it actually says; Is a mystery of god or not discernable by humans; or is just plain magic.

      I'm sure one will work! LOL

      But, the verses say what they say. It is what it is.


      February 14, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
    • David Johnson

      Or maybe this from the inerrant bible:

      Satan took Jesus to a high place, which Matthew explicitly identifies as a very high mountain, where all the kingdoms of the world can be seen.

      Satan taking Jesus to a very high mountain, where all the kingdoms of the world can be seen, seems to indicate all the kingdoms of the world could be seen from this vantage point.

      Otherwise, what would be the point of Mathew stressing that it was a very high mountain?

      But, this would have been impossible 'cause the world is a sphere.

      People in Jesus' day, including Jesus, thought the earth was flat, and held up by pillars. It's turtles all the way down!

      Spin this however you want. But the passage says what it says. It is what it is.

      Fundie rule of thumb: If it strengthens their case for god, the verse is to be taken literally. If it harms their case for god, it is allegorical, or just plain magic.


      February 14, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Jiimtanker sometimes telling u to not to simplify the truth does not help you. First of all quote the full passage that goes to 'keep the virgins'. Second cow dung is a proper fuel but human excreta is considered dangerous even now. Quote them fully if you are man enough.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:40 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      As to david johnson's references to imminent return theory it is so funny. Have you ever wondered why the Church never accepts any prophet who says Christ is coming at such and such a date. Ask an orthodox minister rather than a cult leader and they will gladly explain.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:49 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Note David that when I die the next thing I hope is the Rapture. In five mins or twenty milleni it will all be the same to me. One min. A generation is not my problem. As King David said,"Teach us to number our days so that we may apply our hearts to wisdom". Guarantee i may survive tomorrow is nil.

      February 14, 2012 at 11:04 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      He did not predict a 1st Century return, you know that is out of context

      "time was relatively short"

      Yes the 60-80 years of there lives, and yours is relativily short,

      To put it into perspective if all time was a 2 hour movie your life would make up less then a millisecond of that movie. Please grasp that.

      " Or, the one I like, Fictional."
      But Dave if you go with that position then you disqualify your entire post. What is the point of examining Jesus' Words if you have presuppose it never happen in the first place, you have now contridicted your own beliefs. Please re-examine

      I Thessalonians 4:15-17 , gives no time frame, those who are still alive at the time will be... if you will finish the book you will come across this passage

      1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,a you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

      Again, We is church universal

      Do you really believe John was talking about 60 minutes?

      Now this is the funny part Dave, you don't believe in a young universe, you probably believe as I do in an unvirse around 13.5 billion years or so
      Now lets just say Christ returns in the year 4,000 that would still make the time of the writing to the return only 0.00002962962962963 % of all history, so you can see how that is quickly


      February 15, 2012 at 8:13 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Dave, please stop, you know better, first if you presuppose as you have that Satan can transport Jesus on top of a Mountain that what is the issue limiting his power to show a panoramic of all the kingdoms of the world, at that time. Why do you know that Hollywood can do it, but the person with the power to move people to locations can not also give a view into those locations. Again you contradict yourself by assuming half of the text.

      It is clear that, in context, the reference is to the noble ones, princes, not the physical Earth. Immediately before, the context is people, and immediately after the context is also about people. It is quite clear that this is the meaning, as Gill points out (Ryrie’s Study Bible notes also say the same thing).

      He raises the poor from the dust
      And lifts the beggar from the ash heap,
      To set them among princes
      And make them inherit the throne of glory.
      “For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s,
      And He has set the world upon them.

      Read in context friend

      February 15, 2012 at 8:19 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Mike from CT

      As I stated, and even gave you a number of suggestions, you would spin these verses. But all a person has to do, is to read them. Their author's meaning is very clear. The authors had Jesus declare He would be back in the 1st century, as a "selling point" for the Christian religion. Or if Jesus was real, then He was wrong.

      From the quotes I gave it is obvious, the apostles saw no need for interpretation.

      These guys also feel Jesus was "mistaken" LOL!

      The respected Christian apologist and author, C.S. Lewis 1960 essay "The Worlds Last Night"
      “Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

      Bertrand Russell, in his book, 'Why I Am Not A Christian',
      He discredits the inspiration of the New Testament: "I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospel narrative…He certainly thought that his second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at the time. There are a great many texts that prove…He believed that his coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of his earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of his moral teaching." Russell later reasons that it would be fallacious to follow a religious leader (such as Jesus) who was mistaken on so basic a prediction as his parousia.

      parousia = second coming

      eschatology = the branch of theology that is concerned with such final things as death and Last Judgment; Heaven and Hell; the ultimate destiny of humankind

      Albert Schweitzer in his 19-century book, 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', summarized the problem of "Parousia delay" as follows: "The whole history of Christianity down to the present day... is based on the delay of the Parousia, the nonoccurrence of the Parousia, the abandonment of eschatology, the process and completion of the 'de-eschatologizing' of religion which has been connected therewith."

      Jesus promised his followers that the kingdom would soon come (Matt. 16:28).
      —Robert B. Hughes and J. Carl Laney, Tyndale Concise Bible Commentary (Wheaton: Tyndale House Publishers, 2001), 412.

      Sorry, Sparky. Spin it how you like but your little carpenter blew it.


      February 15, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Mike from CT

      Yes, I suppose If Satan could transport Jesus to a high mountain, he would have the ability to show Him all the spherical world.

      But that is not what is said. There is no talk of a vision etc.

      Hmmm... I watched an episode of "Surviorman" a while back. Les Stroud was in a thick forest. He climbed a high mountain, so he could see as much of the environment as possible. The fellow on Man Vs. Wild climbed a tree, to achieve the same objective. I've never seen anyone seek out a valley,to get the lay of the land.

      Satan taking Jesus to a very high mountain, where all the kingdoms of the world can be seen, seems to indicate all the kingdoms of the world could be seen from this vantage point. Why? Because the authors believed the world was FLAT.
      Otherwise, what would be the point of Mathew stressing that it was a very high mountain?

      There would have been no need to transport the little carpenter anywhere, if "magic" were to be used. (See, I included this spin in my list. LOL)

      The authors most definitely thought the earth was flat, as did all people of this era.


      February 15, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • Mike from CT

      "Otherwise, what would be the point of Mathew stressing that it was a very high mountain?"

      Because this is the testimony of Jesus, passed on to Matthew.

      February 15, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Dave, come on at least finish the essay it is not that long.

      It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30—32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

      As for the other three, well there is your example of spinning something.

      February 15, 2012 at 11:57 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      When Christ was asked about His kingdom by Pilate He clearly stated it was not of this world. The visions of Christ after His Ascension were visions of His Royal Deity not as He was on Earth. If CS Lewis is your authority I can tell you for a fact that I have a higher authority in the Scriptures.

      February 15, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Kingdom of Heaven and the Son of Man came in power in the lifetime of the Apostles. The Rapture n Apocalypse have not. The verse 34 of Matt 24 is rendered "then at last this age will come to a close." in de LIVING BIBLE after Lewis. Eternity is based on the concept of infinity not discrete time.

      February 15, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Ch 23 of Matt verse 36 HAS OCCURED in d lifetime of some of the Apostles(generation). It is the end of Age predicted in Matt 24 therefore the rendition used by Lewis was not right. A generation and an age is differentiated by time span. An age spans a much longer time of living than generation.

      February 15, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Greek and Hebrew are not equivalent languages and the same problem occurs between English and Greek. There is also historical differences in definitions of words. Hence generation and age can easily be caught out. However as usual context provides the answer.

      February 15, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The next question is the question of world is flat so Jesus had to be up a mountain. If you can lay out the world flat on a map do you really think between Jesus n d Devil projection of that sort is beyond them? You also forget that magnification will b needed 2 see them all that distance apart.

      February 15, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
  5. Christians are not allowed near children and other living things

    Christians molest your children, keep your away from them!!!

    February 14, 2012 at 10:14 am |
    • Don't forget Jews

      Jews use the blood of infants in their rituals.

      February 14, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • Jew!

      You're right!

      It's tough to find good child's blood these days, especially christian ones! I mean sure, Muslim blood works in a pinch I guess but Hindu, Chinese and most other blood from innocent children just never has the desired effect the way christian children do. Would you know of a good place where I could find some young christian kids?

      February 14, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • Observer

      Ask William Demuth. He keeps up with that sort of thing.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Bagram Air Force Base would be a GREAT place to find them!

      February 14, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
    • jimtanker

      Why BAF?

      February 14, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Don't forget Jews

      And they have horns.

      Just showin' bigotry

      February 14, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • be careful

      David Johnson
      You do not have to pretend bigotry.

      February 14, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Religion makes people ultimately wicked as they defend their religious positions. Atheists say they are not but they sure do behave the same. I hope you guys release yourself and learn to love your neighbor as yourself regardless of religious affiliation.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:55 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      Nii We are the same as you.. we just have seen no proof for your god, and you are unable to show us..We are willing to change our views if you can prove us wrong.. embarrass us. Love and beauty are in no way restricted to belief in a deity..

      February 15, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      I do not care whether u r religious or not. ED what I am saying is that even on a humanist level to love ur neighbor as urself does not harm but rather enhances human dignity.

      February 15, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
  6. AGuest9

    My latest experience in a "church" perhaps helps understanding why the city might have another reason for concern: liability. When attending my friend's grand-daughter's "dedication", I witnessed people throwing themselves to the floor, babbling. Should one of the fools hit their head sufficiently on the floor, they can cause unconsciousness, or even death. Insuring public facilities is not insignificant, especially in this day of outrageous litigation and tight budgets.

    February 14, 2012 at 9:58 am |
    • Observer

      Not really a worry with the appropriate headgear. American football is worse and schools adore that.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • David Johnson


      An almighty god that could protect the fundies from snakes and poisons, would surely protect them from brain damage.

      The fundies howling at the moon is music to their god's ear. Amen


      February 14, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
    • adam

      How does this make sense? The whole court case was about whether the schools can specifically deny religious groups from renting the space for worship while they do make it available for non-religious groups to rent. How does a concern for liability apply to religious groups more than other groups? I mean, you give an odd-ball example, but come on! Do you really think that's what the hang up is??

      February 15, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
  7. Russ

    Thoughtful response from a NYC pastor:

    February 14, 2012 at 9:38 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Yes, it is posted in full two post down

      February 14, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
  8. Doc Vestibule

    So long as the meetings are being held after school hours and those who use the space have no say in how the school pursues its educational goals, I don't see what the big deal is.
    I'd wager there are other groups who use the space for meetings.
    If they let the local stamp collecting club rent the room on weekends, they should let Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or Flying Yogis rent it as well.
    The school could probably use the $$!

    February 14, 2012 at 8:55 am |
    • Really-O?

      @Doc Vestibule –
      "If they let the local stamp collecting club rent the room on weekends, they should let Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or Flying Yogis rent it as well."
      ...sounds practical and reasonable; however, this is prohibited by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Const itution. Utility and justice do not always equate.

      February 15, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      It is not covered under the establishment clause... Congress had no say in this, and we see disunity throughout the states which clearly points to the fact that this is not cover federally

      February 16, 2012 at 7:56 am |
  9. Mike from CT

    I am grieved that New York City is planning to take the unwise step of removing 68 churches from the spaces that they rent in public schools. It is my conviction that those churches housed in schools are invaluable assets to the neighborhoods that they serve. Churches have long been seen as positive additions to communities. Family stability, resources for those in need, and compassion for the marginalized are all positive influences that neighborhood churches provide. There are many with first-hand experience who will claim that the presence of churches in a neighborhood can lead to a drop in crime.
    The great diversity of our city means that we will never all agree completely on anything. And we cherish our city’s reputation for tolerance of differing opinions and beliefs. Therefore, we should all mourn if disagreement with certain beliefs of the church is allowed to unduly influence the formation of just policy and practice.
    I disagree with the opinion written by Judge Pierre Leval that: “A worship service is an act of organized religion that consecrates the place in which it is performed, making it a church.” This is an erroneous theological judgment; I know of no Christian church or denomination that believes that merely holding a service in a building somehow “consecrates” it, setting it apart from all common or profane use. To base a legal opinion on such a superst.itious view is surely invalid. Conversely, I concur with Judge John Walker’s dissenting opinion that this ban const.itutes viewpoint discrimination and the use of public schools raises no legitimate Establishment Clause concerns.
    A disproportionate number of churches that are affected by this prohibition are not wealthy, established communities of faith. They are ones who possess the fewest resources and many work with the poor. Redeemer has many ties with those churches and their pastors, and our church community invests time and resources to assist them to be good neighbors in their communities.
    Let them be those good neighbors. I am hopeful that the leaders of New York City and the legislators of New York State will see the value of a society that encourages all spheres of culture—the church, government, education, business, etc—to work together for human flourishing.
    Dr. Timothy Keller
    Senior Pastor
    Redeemer Presbyterian Church

    February 14, 2012 at 8:14 am |
    • jimtanker

      Churches and the religion that they shelter are a blight on society. When they are all gone then human kind can progress.

      February 14, 2012 at 8:28 am |
    • Mike from CT

      You mean like they once did during the French Revolution, or in the Communist countries Russia, China and Cambodia?
      Tried that and failed.

      If you believe the doctrines of Christ and the Apostles are a blight on society please provide an example for all of us to learn.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:03 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Furthermore, the gospel transcends all cultures and time, you have seen much progress in your life, I don't think Churches have stopped it in anyway.

      The issue is that if you were traveling on the wrong road, then just going forward would not be progress, but backtracking your steps to get on the correct road, for whoever does this first is in fact the most progressive.

      Now the question we must ask ourselves is are we on the wrong road. I think there is universal agreement that we are, I mean even Oprah wants us to become "better" people. When you have a guy walk in to an elementary school and shoot the children, then we agree that something has gone wrong with society. When priest abuse their positions rather than be in submission to the word of God, all agree that something has gone wrong.

      So please look into the teachings and life of Christ to find if there is something there that "has gone wrong"

      February 14, 2012 at 9:10 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ mike
      I think he meant more like Sweden, which is a primarily atheist country, very liberal, and considered a free country. Atheism and communism is not one in the same. I can point out though that the last time religion ruled the world we had the dark ages.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:13 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ mike
      We have been progressing as a society despite religion. They were the main people for segregation and against women being allowed anything. I agree we aren't on the best path, but we're heading in the right direction and religion just wants us to run the other way

      February 14, 2012 at 9:20 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Atheism is not all Communism, but Communism were Atheist. As for Sweeden, yes they have a low crime rate, but it would be expected to be low since they consider many things not to be a crime.

      As for the Crusades, it's funny how you dismiss communism so easily but point to the crusades as the proper example. When I reveiw the Crusades, I see nothing in the teachings of Christ or the Apostles that urge people toward the Crusades nor do I see anything done in the Crusades in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

      If we are headed in the right direction, what is the destination? What indication do you have that we are headed in the correct direction?

      February 14, 2012 at 9:34 am |
    • jimtanker

      The correct direction is the advancement of humanity. To do this we need to increase our knowledge and technology. The only way to do this is through science. The biggest obstacle to science, in the US at least, is religion.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:40 am |
    • jimtanker

      And Mike, communism isn’t defined by its religious stance. It is an economic and political device. Atheism was just the moral opinion of the leader at the time. Just like HitIer being a Christian. He used his Christianity as a reason to kiII jewish people just as they did during the crusades, inquisitions, and global expansionism.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:48 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      Jimtanker beat me to it. As long as science and the average human life continue to improve, we are heading in the right direction.

      I don't see any of Christ's teachings in some of the social aspects of the gop lately but they are the religious party. From what I've seen the majority of religious are very conservative whereas Jesus was clearly liberal. I judge people by their actions, not by what they say. The majority of atheists I talk to do not want a communist state, but the majority of theists I talk to want a theocracy or to backtrack to a "better time". This time varies depending on who you talk to but the general rule is the more religious the person, the further back they want to go. Some even say the dark ages were prosperous for Christianity and they want to go back to that.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:51 am |
    • Mike from CT

      "As long as science and the average human life continue to improve, we are heading in the right direction."

      Good, except we are the most connected but yet most isolated, depressed generation in history also because of some technologies
      I am not anti technology as a programmer myself, however, I would not put my hope in technology or "average human life" which as you have shown has continues to corrupt for self's sake. Like said Hitler, who was not a follow of Christ, will twist what is good for individual good, same with the right GOP.
      Funny how you see Jesus as a liberal and judging by your comments a liberal yourself, but yet still reject Christ. Why, if I am correct, is that so?

      Some of the seediest things are now available to us through this technology that was not available to us. Technology in and of itself does not help man with "moral defects"
      So science and technology, in and of itself does not point us in the correct direction.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      As of 2010, 70% of swedes were Lutherans and of course there were members of other faiths and then immigrnts with their own religions. Hardly an atheist country. Rather what you have is Christians applying the teaching of Christ to be tolerant. This is not atheism but secularism. China is atheist

      February 14, 2012 at 11:11 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      Jiimtanker if you do not know much about History it is best not to butcher it. Hitler was not a Christian. Also the term Dark Ages refers to Europeans. Other cultures might term it their Golden Age. It was paganism which brought the Dark Ages. The Church did damage control.

      February 14, 2012 at 11:19 am |
    • William Demuth


      We can't tolerate lies here.

      Hitler was DEFINETLEY a Christian, and Christianity is clearly complicit in the Nazi attrocities.

      I mean just read the mans book. He spells it out CLEARLY>

      February 14, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      Hitler was a devout catholic. He mentioned Christ many times in his speeches as well as his writings. The catholic church even backed him in his fight for control saying he was doing gods work.

      I'm a liberal on social issues, when it comes to money, I'm more conservative. And I don't reject Christ as a person, if he did live, he was a great man and preached some good things. I just don't think he was the son of any god, mainly because I don't think there is such a being.

      Morality changes with the times, in the past it was morally okay to own slaves, now it isn't. My point is you can't judge the direction we are going based on how the next generation views morals. Every generation has said the next is in moral decay but in reality its just different and they don't like it. You say most people are isolated and depressed but that has more to do with the economy than anything else.

      February 14, 2012 at 11:37 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ nii
      In 2005 over half the population of Sweden was either atheist or agnostic. Denmark wasn't far behind. Just type in most atheist nations in Google and you can find this info

      February 14, 2012 at 11:42 am |
    • Tom

      Actually, Hitler was an atheist.

      February 14, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ tom
      Do some basic research from don reliable sources and you will see Hitler was by no means an atheist. He was in fact very Christian

      February 14, 2012 at 11:59 am |
    • Nii Croffie

      If Hitler's 'Christianity' is true I will go to church next Sunday at a Kingdom Hall or LDS Temple. The guy was using Christianity to further his cause. If you want u can go to Wikipedia on 'Hitler's religious views'. WWII WAS NOT A CRUSADE. It is unfair to the memory of X'tians who died at his hand

      February 14, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ nii I never said it was a crusade, just that he was Christian and the catholic church back him. And wikipedia is not a reliable source to get information

      February 14, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      Let's address it this way, who did Hitler

      "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,0teaching them to observe all that I[Jesus] commanded you;”

      February 14, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Swedes u r calling atheists and agnostic actually sleep at night with their Church of Sweden membership card. They are two steps off from Hitler who actually held heretical views on Christ and persecuted Christians who did not like it and spoke their mind. Catholic my foot.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      But as always with this board, we are way off topic and on to a smoke screen, I mean really do you think the closing of the use of facilities that are not being used on Sunday has help deter Nazism?

      February 14, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
    • jimtanker

      “The guy was using Christianity to further his cause.”

      WHAT?!?!?! A Christian using his religion to further a cause? Say it aint so. This has never happened in the history of the planet. That was an amazing revelation.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      No Sir! Pope Benedict is turning in his holy grave. He controlled the RCC in his country. Will u like to be the priest who revoked his membership card? It is like telling me the Mohammed Ali was Christian because Mamelukes were former Christians. Mussollini was a devout Catholic not Hitler.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      When people make noise like the Church was for segregation what comes to mind? Even without Wikipedia we know that the leaders of the civil rights movement have been called Rev not out of secular respect but for the fact that they were Christian ministers. Simplifying the truth is lying.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      The Church has done whole lot of good throughout history but unfortunately some feel maligning and marginalizing it is helping society. If you like Sweden a secular country like the US 4 de fact that most Xtians there don't attend church does that mean American Christian shud lose places of worship

      February 14, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • jimtanker

      They can do all the good that they want but that doesn’t make what they believe true. You have to provide evidence that what you believe is real before you can be taken seriously by any rational person.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      And when you talk of Inquisition and Crusades being against jews how untrue that is. The Moslems, Pagans, non-RCC Christians and Jews suffered in the various Crusades and Inquisitions. Be contextual about history. Wiki and others can help with that.

      February 14, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • jimtanker

      Nii, what a tard you are.

      Who said anything about the crusades or inquisitions being against the Jews? I said that millions of jews were killed during them. Just another reason, like chrisitans have ever needed a reason for what they do or believe.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Jiimtanker what do u mean by it doesn't mean it is true. Scientists do not term religious people as sick or delusional. In fact the spiritual practise of religions seem to help human health. Christianity is the most helpful in this dxn.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ mike
      I know many Christians that haven't gone out and tried to make deciples of everyone. I'm not saying he was a good Christian, just that he was one. Through his writings and his speeches as well as the fact he had a phrase about god put on all his soldiers belt buckles, you can obviously tell he was a Christian.

      As for getting off topic I agree. I think ny is doing the right thing here. Kids need to be able to keep school and church completely separate and having church in the same building will lead to the kids not knowing the difference. School should be where facts are taught and nothing else. Groups should be allowed to meet but only groups that are directly relayed to school and the student body.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      Look Jiim u've just been caught out, haven't u? Give the numbers of those Jews killed during those crusades, etc. Most people of the time will readily give up their faith. The massacre of Jerusalem killed more Moslems and Christians than Jews. Please no Voodoo history here, we read history too!

      February 14, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      "facts are taught and nothing else"
      So then do you throw out Creative writing classes, do you teach your second grader the bloody history of the birth of this nation?

      As for kids (and you) to 1) think that they could not differentiate between something happens on Sunday means it is a part of their curriculum 2) to erroneously think that what people rent their buildings out is automatically going to be include into the curriculum
      is absurd.

      We had scout meeting in the schools, is that OK by you? What about philosophy club? Junior Achievements? Was my school incorrect to teach that the atom was the smallest particle at the time in the world now that it is not?

      If you want to only teach facts then you have to include the bible, which has the historical record of Israel and the life of Jesus.

      Unless you also plan to through out all history classes at a later date.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      To a kid, if its in the same location, you're forced to go to it just like school, and its around the same time of day, then its the same thing. The bible couldn't be used because it is not a credible reference to anything. A good amount is blatantly wrong and the other parts are argued about by people within the same denomination. The only mention it should have is that it was written during the time frame the kids are studying. And then again when talking of the middle ages to say how it was used to control people.

      And yes, you teach the kids the bloody history of how this nation started, I would keep out the bloody parts until they were a bit older than 2nd grade though. and creative writing is fine, they're learning how to be creative and aren't being taught anything really other than hoe to properly structure a paper. Philosophy is the same as creative writing, its used to help them question everything, its not teaching them anything that can't be proven. And with the atom thing, its easier for most people if they're taught in small steps and not everything at once.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • Mike from CT

      “ its around the same time of day, then its the same thing.”

      But it is not it is on Sunday, when the school is normally closed

      "The bible couldn't be used because it is not a credible reference to anything"
      You really need to learn what history is. It is eyewitness accounts and testimony as to the things transpired, written by king, peasants and fishermen and all in between, across five continents over a vast majority of time

      If you would refuse to teach from the bible you must also refuse to teach the as.sianation of Lincoln, the Spanish armada, and anything regarding Persia.

      Middle Ages started in the 5th century,(400s), the entire bible penned before 100AD, so much for teaching just facts.

      "And then again when talking of the middle ages to say how it was used to control people."
      Why not teach it as the force that drove William Wilberforce to become one of the leading abolitionist
      Or How Luther used it to fight against what you think Christianity is
      Or even the Dr Martin Luther King using it to break down racial segregation?

      Prove to me that Descartes or Kant was correct. Start with a more basic principle, prove to us this isn't a bad dream you are having. One day you will learn you can't prove much if anything in life, the only thing you can do is point and be directed in the direction the evidence presents

      The Atom thing is, kid, that prior to the experiments splitting atoms, it was "fact" that the atom was the smallest thing in the universe. (1930s-40s)

      February 14, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • Nii Croffie

      However maybe this latest wave of marginalizing policies wud help these churches become more organic in their organization. perhaps becoming house-church networks or cell churches.

      February 15, 2012 at 5:15 am |
  10. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things
    Pray without ceasing in 2012

    February 14, 2012 at 5:56 am |
    • Mirosal

      prayer is moot. You're wasting time that would be better spent being a productive member of society

      February 14, 2012 at 6:02 am |
    • Prayer changes things

      Matthew 5 :11

      February 14, 2012 at 6:05 am |
    • Mirosal

      I used all my buybull pages for toilet paper. It made quite an improvement over its intial use in a book. Unlike you, I do not carry one 24/7. I actually have a REAL life. So what is that verse in your worthless man-made man-written man-inspred book?

      February 14, 2012 at 6:23 am |
    • Prayer changes things

      The filth of your soul is evidenced in your words. shame on you

      February 14, 2012 at 7:06 am |
    • Mirosal

      only the religious believe in a soul. I'd bet you would have no objections if I did the same thing to a Qu'ran, would you?

      February 14, 2012 at 7:09 am |
    • just sayin

      Hitler was fond of abusing books too, follow your leader.

      February 14, 2012 at 7:12 am |
    • Mirosal

      So would you rather I did it to a Qu'ran than to a buybull?

      February 14, 2012 at 7:14 am |
    • just sayin

      I would rather you meet the fate of those who abuse books for their own selfish ends. This is becoming a habit with you. Just the other day you used wounded service people like some political ghoul to try and advance your agenda. Is there no lengths you will not sink to?

      February 14, 2012 at 7:20 am |
    • Dozer

      LMAO! "The filth of your soul"?!!? Where do you get this sh**? Too funny.

      February 14, 2012 at 7:23 am |
    • Mirosal

      Keep your buybull in YOUR home.. in YOUR church, and do NOT bring it to MY door, and into MY government, and we'll get along just fine. And yes I have done it to a Qu'ran as well .... same 'god' same bullsh!t rhetoric. Your 'god' holds NO authority over me.

      February 14, 2012 at 7:25 am |
    • just sayin

      God holds all authority over everything. Sooner or later we all will realize it. Too late may be your knowledge.

      February 14, 2012 at 8:04 am |
    • bigot

      "God holds all authority over everything. Sooner or later we all will realize it. Too late may be your knowledge"

      more pascals wager and fear mongering from christians. not surprised. The fact here is that you DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN that your statement is correct. There COULD be a god, or many gods, or no god. Please PROVE that your god exists once and for all.

      February 14, 2012 at 8:19 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      The fact is that most Atheists were once christian and have read the buybull. Most christians would be atheists if they actually read the buybull. Turning a deaf ear to the world and reality doesn't solve anything and only stands to hold society back. Saying you have proof because god spoke to you or you felt him or the buybull says it is so, is not proof...most are feel-good measures meant to satisfy the person. As an Atheist my feel-good measure comes from doing good in this world...helping where I can; following societal laws; having good morals; treating my neighbors with kindness; loving my spouse and family, etc. I don't need an unknown deity or a book to tell me how to act.

      February 14, 2012 at 8:36 am |
    • Primewonk

      Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam!
      Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
      Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam.
      Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam!
      Spam spam spam spam!

      February 14, 2012 at 8:52 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      You said.
      "prayer changes things
      I'd like to know how its proven.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:06 am |
    • AGuest9

      "Proven"... You have no proof.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:45 am |
    • Nope

      No it has NOT been proven. **The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs."""""`~~~~

      February 14, 2012 at 10:15 am |
    • nope

      nope .

      February 14, 2012 at 10:31 am |
    • LOL


      nope ."

      More desperation from the xtians continuing to prove Nope's post correct. LOL!

      February 14, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • just sayin

      Proof was given, you all missed them, there were several. If they were all posted again you all would miss them again and be back with the same stupid comments. Sorry for your loss, curiosity can be dealt with but stupid goes clear to the bone with you all, look things up for yourselves.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:36 am |
    • LOL

      "Proof was given, you all missed them, there were several. If they were all posted again you all would miss them again and be back with the same stupid comments"

      That's correct "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things" has been proven wrong yet continues to make the same stupid comment, just sayin. LMAO!

      February 14, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • ....

      "but stupid goes clear to the bone with you all,"

      Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:46 am |
    • I'm The Best!

      Could the proof that was given be explained easily by probability and natural causes? If so, that wasn't proof. And you have still yet to show that prayer has any type of proof to back it up. This has nothing to do with stupidity on our side, just lack of proof on yours. And if you truly believe you have shown proof, its stupidity on your side that we are trying to deal with.

      February 14, 2012 at 10:48 am |


      February 14, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
  11. Tim

    No one should be forced to study or be of a certain religion in a public school, I agree, but to ignore it and act like it's not a major contributor to the historical decisions people and states make, is silly. Also, if people want to pray in school, it's their business. It shouldn't be forced, but it shouldn't be banned either. Everyone should follow the rules and keep level heads.

    February 13, 2012 at 11:45 pm |
    • Whatever

      You might have read the article before you lept to your conclusion. This isn't about teaching religion at school. It is about renting cheap space at a school after hours for use as a church.

      February 14, 2012 at 3:22 am |
  12. KVM

    The owner of EPIC club is more generous than NYC public school. The owner lends his/her club to a church every Sunday.

    February 13, 2012 at 11:21 pm |
    • O.S. Bird

      It's not a matter of generosity. It's a matter of not showing favoritism.

      February 13, 2012 at 11:25 pm |
  13. O.S. Bird

    Why oh why do "Christians" feel it necessary to be represented in schools and government facilities? They have their homes, churches, and all the great outdoors – just like everyone else.

    February 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
    • Tim

      Why, oh why, do... "some"? Ask them.

      February 13, 2012 at 11:43 pm |
  14. Reality

    Recognizing the flaws, follies and frauds in the foundations of Islam, Judaism and Christianity, the "bowers", kneelers" and "pew peasants" are converging these religions into some simple rules of life. No koran, bible, clerics, nuns, monks, imams, evangelicals, ayatollahs, rabbis, professors of religion or priests needed or desired.

    Ditto for houses of "worthless worship" aka mosques, churches (to include those in schools), basilicas, cathedrals, temples and synagogues.

    February 13, 2012 at 6:21 pm |
    • allfaith

      Thank-you Reality. It's time to stop pretending that we need to join a club to understand and apply morality. Either all people are special or none are. That's the way equality works. You don't have to try to be who you are.

      February 13, 2012 at 8:56 pm |
    • ......

      hit report abuse on reality repeat garbage

      February 13, 2012 at 9:55 pm |
  15. Nonimus

    Not sure I agree with this decision. Unless I'm missing something, shouldn't they have the same access as any other group? It seems that it comes down to a particular church being associated with a school.

    February 13, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
    • essgee

      No, they shouldn't have the same access as other groups. We have (and must continue to have) a separation between church and state; we don't have a separation between ping-pong club and state, square-dance enthusiasts and state, etc.

      February 13, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Separation of church and state. The state should not provide facilities at tax-payer expense, most especially, to tax-exempt organizations. New York is well within its right, here.

      February 13, 2012 at 8:35 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      I wonder what would happen if a group of atheists wanted to meet in the school..do you think we would hear about it?

      February 13, 2012 at 9:32 pm |
    • northern light

      No they should be denied that access to preserve church state separation.
      If they need a building in which to worship a deity .....call on the said deity to provide same ....I think they call it...
      "ask and yea shall receive"

      February 13, 2012 at 11:38 pm |
    • Mirosal

      @ Evolved ... my Atheist group meets in a bar. Great place, good food, lots of fun.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:28 am |
    • AGuest9

      EvolvedDNA, atheists meet all the time in libraries and at universities and in taverns, much like the Founding Fathers did.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:47 am |
    • Q

      I agree w/ Nonimus. If the schools are available to be used by outside groups, then the school must remain neutral in which groups it allows or simply cease offering the venue all together. SOCAS is critically important to preserving individual freedom, but the flip side is the preservation of individual Free Exercise of Religion, Right to Peacefully Assemble and of course, Free Speech. Personally, I think religion is silly, but as I want my right not to believe to be protected, I must support others' right to believe and practice their faith (within reasonable limits).

      Making a public space available to a private group is certainly not an official endorsement of that group's views so long as the access and constraints on the use of the public space are the same for all groups. Neutrality requires that the Churches pay the same fair-market rent that any other non-student private group should and that their use of the space not bleed over into the M-F academics (i.e. no lingering religious flyers, worship service programs, etc). However, it appears that the Churches have been able to pay a well-below market rate for access. If this is true, then this inherent subsidy of the Church's religious view with State tax dollars used in building and maintaining the school is, IMHO, a violation of SOCAS. If the issue is simply a purported mental association of a particular weekend church group with a particular school, well, I don't think that rises to the level of an official endorsement. When I was in school, I don't think I ever remotely gave half a cr@p about who was using the building on the weekends...

      February 15, 2012 at 12:09 am |
  16. jdubz

    The more society tries to erase Christianity, the harder it will fall.

    February 13, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • William Demuth


      Your post seems contradictory.

      February 13, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Do tell us how anyone is trying to 'erase Christianity'. Thanks in advance.

      February 13, 2012 at 5:31 pm |
    • AGuest9

      It will fall away on its own.

      February 13, 2012 at 8:36 pm |
    • jdubz makes sense if you are drunk enough

      You hit the nail right between the eyes with that insight, jdubz.

      February 13, 2012 at 11:25 pm |
  17. Christians are not allowed near children and other living things

    Christians rape and molest your children, keep your children away from them!!!!!!

    February 13, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
    • sharky

      Pedophiles come in all religious shapes and even non-religious shapes. Nice try.

      February 13, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
    • Tim

      I'd challenge that statement further and say that no actual "Christians" would do such a thing... but then again, I've met maybe a handful of people that claimed they were that actually might have been instead of just saying it. Regardless, Sharky is right and freaks come in all shapes, sizes, ages and of religious faiths as well as those that have no faith.

      February 13, 2012 at 11:49 pm |
    • Rational Libertarian


      No true Scotsman.

      February 14, 2012 at 4:33 am |
    • Joe T.

      Tim... look up "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

      February 14, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
  18. William Demuth

    Its about time.

    Priests in schools. Like fat chicks at the all you can eat lunch place.

    They don't care who they trample to get their "chicken"

    February 13, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
    • allfaith

      People come as individuals,
      without labels.

      February 13, 2012 at 8:59 pm |
    • David Johnson

      Now that's funny! I don't care who you are. LOL


      February 14, 2012 at 11:52 am |
  19. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things

    February 13, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • Nope

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.

      February 13, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
    • Christians are not allowed near children and other living things

      "Prayer changes things"

      Didn't keep all those children in the churches from being molested now did it. You've been proven wrong.

      February 13, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
    • nope


      February 13, 2012 at 7:43 pm |
    • An inconvenient truth

      Contrary to atheist belief the most common place for child abuse is not the church or the school. More children are abused at home by trusted family members and neighbors than anywhere else. Those who so quickly judge the church might be well diverting attention from themselves.

      February 13, 2012 at 8:34 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Lying is unethical.

      February 13, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
    • allfaith

      Change the word prayer to relaxation or thoughtfulness and I'll go along with it.

      February 13, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • just sayin

      Lying is required to be a beginner atheist. You have to be able to lie to yourself to claim you are an atheist.

      February 13, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      Prayer changes things

      February 13, 2012 at 9:03 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      Inconvient truth..you miss the point as does Gerald...religion holds it self in such high esteem it feels it is above the law and is not forthcoming with the facts, and uses it position to hide offenders for the good of the organisation. No one has ever claimed that it is only Christian or religious folks who harm children.that is not true. However when uncovered those organisations ( schools or businesses) are obligated to involve the civil authorities and justice rendered. Folks end up in jail..not another dioceses. If a principal or CEO covered up the abuse in the same manner as the CC that person would be in jail.

      February 13, 2012 at 9:21 pm |
    • just wondering

      Who is Gerald?

      February 13, 2012 at 9:58 pm |
    • O.S. Bird

      Can you possibly come up with a more convincing post than the ones you've been repeating for so long?

      February 13, 2012 at 10:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, please. "Who is Gerald?" What a farce.

      February 13, 2012 at 10:54 pm |
    • just wondering

      Read before you comment please tom , do you know who Gerald is?

      February 13, 2012 at 10:58 pm |
    • northern light

      Prayer did not change things much for the 6 million Jewish people in WW2

      February 13, 2012 at 11:41 pm |
    • Rational Libertarian

      Inconvenient Truth

      Are you actually suggesting that people who point out the horrific acts of child abuse committed by the (mainly Catholic) church are actually covering up their latent paedophilia. You sound like Bill Donahue (i.e. a cretin).

      February 14, 2012 at 4:37 am |
    • only the facts

      Out of the horrors of the Second World War the Nation of Israel reemerged.

      February 14, 2012 at 5:54 am |
    • AGuest9

      Excuse me, just sayin? Listen to the nonsense preached every Sunday, the stories the nuns tell, and the stories for the ignorant masses written about in the bible. None of them are the Truth, no matter how much you claim them to be. I'm sorry that you are deluded.

      February 14, 2012 at 9:50 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Just Sayin

      You said: "Lying is required to be a beginner atheist. You have to be able to lie to yourself to claim you are an atheist."

      I think lying is not necessary to be an atheist. Seeing the world as it really is, would seem to be all that is required.

      Lying to oneself only becomes necessary, when you decide to replace the way things really are, with wishful thinking and pretense.

      Christian fundamentalists profess a belief in a god creating the first man from a handful of dirt; Talking snakes; trees that bear fruit, that impart knowledge and eternal life; a global flood, that required a pair of each organism on earth, be stuffed onto a boat; people who lived hundreds of years; a man who was swallowed by a fish, only to be spit up 3 days later, unhurt; a tower god was afraid might reach heaven; a woman who is turned into a pillar of salt; talking donkeys; a zombie messiah; zombie Saints who left their graves and wandered about the town; belief in a circular, flat earth.

      Christians are deluded. They do not believe in Christianity because it is true. To them Christianity is true because they believe it.

      The Christian god is very unlikely to exist. The demigod carpenter was an urban legend.


      February 14, 2012 at 11:33 am |
    • David Johnson


      You said: "Lying is unethical."

      Yep, unless it is 1944 and you have a young Jewish girl hiding in your attic.

      All morals are relative, subjective. Society decides what they will allow and not allow, based on an action's effect on society.
      The times and situation may alter these decisions. Example: In times of war it is okay to kill. Morals are really a contract between society, that their members will behave in a certain way.



      February 14, 2012 at 11:48 am |
  20. Christians are not allowed near children and other living things

    Christians rape and molest your children, keep your children away from them!

    February 13, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
    • Jenn

      That's why my kids aren't allowed to see their grandparents.

      February 13, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Jenn Sandusky! How ya been!

      February 13, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.