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My Take: Why should Santorum decide who's a real Christian?
February 20th, 2012
01:03 PM ET

My Take: Why should Santorum decide who's a real Christian?

Editor's Note: Stephen Prothero, a Boston University religion scholar and author of "God is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions that Run the World," is a regular CNN Belief Blog contributor.

By Stephen Prothero, Special to CNN

There has been much chatter in recent days about the reinjection of religious matters into the presidential campaign, with a focus on the increasingly bitter debate over Catholics and contraception. But Rick Santorum has just opened up a new and dangerous front in the culture wars.

We are now being asked to debate which of the Christians running for president is really a Christian. I am referring here not to questions about Mitt Romney, whose Mormonism according to many evangelicals is not the right theological stuff, but to questions about President Barack Obama.

In the past, the strategy on the right was to intimate that Obama was a closet Muslim (he is not.) It was too crass even for our crassest politicians to come out and utter this falsehood, so, when asked about Obama’s faith, the strategy was to say, “If the president says he’s a Christian, he’s a Christian.”

In fact, that is precisely what Santorum said in Columbus, Ohio, on Saturday.

This “Obama is a Muslim, maybe” strategy was also on display in Lady Lake, Florida, in January when a woman in the audience called Obama an “avowed Muslim” and Santorum let her remarks pass unchallenged.

Santorum took things a step further on Saturday, however, when he blasted the president for adhering to a "phony theology." The context, oddly enough, was a discussion of oil drilling technology, namely “fracking.”

In an effort to explain why Obama was in his view dragging his heels on this new technology, Santorum said the president was not motivated by “quality of life” issues. “It’s not about your job. It’s about some phony ideal, some phony theology,” he said. “Oh, not a theology based on the Bible, a different theology. But no less a theology.”

On Sunday on CBS's "Face the Nation," Santorum tried to shift the conversation from Obama's faith to the "phony ideal" of "radical environmentalists." "I accept the fact that the president's a Christian," he said,  even as he insisted on questioning Obama's "worldview."

Later on Sunday, at a suburban Atlanta megachurch, he seemed to compare Obama to Hitler while comparing Americans' complacency about Obama today to complacency about the Germans during World War II. "Remember, the greatest generation for a year and a half, sat on the sidelines while Europe was in darkness," he said. "We think . . . 'This will be okay. I mean, yeah, maybe he's not the best guy after a while. after a while you find out some things about this guy over in Europe who's not so good of a guy after all."

I will leave it to theologians to explain to me what the Bible says about hydraulic fracturing, to lexicographers to parse the fine distinctions between phony "theology" and a phony "worldview," and to historians (or 5th graders) to distinguish between our president and Germany's Fuhrer, but my point is this: Santorum has crossed a line.

In 2008, he crossed a similar line, but he had not yet announced his run for president, so his remarks went largely unnoticed. In remarks at Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, however, he said that our culture war actually a “spiritual war” and that “Satan” was on the march in America.

This “Prince of Lies,” as Santorum called him, was destroying universities, the government and popular culture. But he had also infiltrated mainline Protestantism, which in Santorum's view had ceased to live up to the name of “Christian.” “We look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is a shambles. It is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it," Santorum said.

All this language about the “phony theology” of the president and mainline Protestants is in my view a misguided response to the decision of the Democrats to get right with God after Senator John Kerry’s loss to President Bush in the 2004 election.

Up to and during that election, Republicans were able to cloak themselves in the mantle of right religion and tar the Democrats as the party of the secular left. After 2004, however, the Democrats spoke increasingly about God and the Bible, linking their public policies to longstanding Christian commitments to justice and the poor.

Today Republicans continue to attack Democrats for adhering to the religion of “none of the above,” but such charges are increasingly implausible. So the new charge is not that the Democrats are godless. It is that they are the wrong kind of Christians.

There is considerable debate about what the founders meant when they preserved religious liberty and disestablished religion in the First Amendment. About these meanings (and in my view they were multiple) reasonable people can disagree.

It is also worth debating how far the founders thought religious diversity might go in their new nation. There was some conversation about Muslims and Jews during debates over Constitution's exclusion of any religious test for federal office. Some questioned whether Americans really wanted to allow non-Christians to be president.

There is no debating, however, the fact that the founders insisted on amity among the Christian denominations. In fact, they saw such amity as essential to peace and prosperity in their new republic.

Now Rick Santorum is turning the tables on those 19th century bigots who excommunicated Catholics from the community of the Christian faith. Evangelicals apparently pass muster with him, but not liberal Protestants, who according to Saint Santorum are less Christian than he.

There are doubtless theological discussions to be had here. In fact, Americans have been having them since the Reformation. And if Santorum wants to address a Catholic catechism class about whether Protestants are going to heaven, more power to him.

I also have no problem with Santorum citing chapter and verse from a papal encyclical to explain why he thinks "artificial birth control" is “harmful to women” and "harmful to our society" (as he said in 2006).  You want to give Catholic reasons for your public policies? Knock yourself out. Just don’t expect non-Catholics to agree with them (or many Catholics, for that matter).

Santorum also has every right to argue (as he has repeatedly) that church and state have never been separated in the United States the way some strict separationists would like them to be. But there must be some distinction between what happens in a sermon on Sunday morning and what happens in a presidential debate.

Conservatives in the United States have long spoken on behalf of community values. One of the most venerable values in American public life is religious pluralism.

This tradition of agreeing to disagree in the public square about such matters as the Trinity does not dictate that you check your faith at the door. It does not mandate that we all become moral relativists or theological compromisers. It does insist, however, that we refrain from reducing God to a wedge - which is to say a tool –for our own partisan politics. As any real conservative will recognize, that is not our tradition.

When I look at the shape of politics in this country, I too see that it is a shambles. And when I look at Rick Santorum's recent remarks I see one reason why.

My question for the former Senator from Pennsylvania is not whether he adheres to the right kind of Christianity. My question is whether there is anything he will not say in order to become president. Have you, sir, no sense of decency?

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Stephen Prothero.

- CNN Belief Blog contributor

Filed under: Barack Obama • Catholic Church • Christianity • Church and state • Culture wars • Politics • Protestant • Rick Santorum • Uncategorized • United States

soundoff (796 Responses)
  1. RightTurnClyde

    This "Belief" blog cannot seem to focus on faith (belief) issues: it always goes back to opinions about the elections and po.l.i.t.i.c.al .c.a.n.d.i.d.a.tes. If is it not Glen Beck, then it is Romney, or the governor of Texas or Sarah Palin or Hucklebee .. and now Santorum. They are always looking at P.O.L.I.T.I.C.S. and introducing the political .a.s.p.e.ct of religion (not faith or belief). Last week it was all about Obama's p.o.l.i.t.i.c.a.l consequences of cha.l.l.e.n.g.i.n.g the Roman Catholic Church .. and of the p.o.l.i.t.i.c.a.l power of American Bishops and cardinals. It is always politics and elections. They actually p.u.s.s.y f.o.o.t around faith issues.

    February 20, 2012 at 10:37 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      And........

      February 20, 2012 at 10:46 pm |
    • Lol

      You pussyfoot around ever coming out with an even moderately intelligent or thoughtful idea. Darn them genetics........

      February 20, 2012 at 11:14 pm |
    • Dance This Mess Around

      Is there a point in your ramble ?

      February 21, 2012 at 10:09 am |
  2. Santorum looks like Al Gore impregnated Jerry Seinfeld, and they aborted the fetus, but the stubborn critter crawled out of the toilet, found Jesus, and ran for president.

    Scary stuff.......

    February 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      I can accept this theory, but where did he find Jesus? Starbucks?

      February 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm |
  3. Puzzled in Peoria

    Martin Luther said "I would rather be ruled by a smart Turk than a stupid Christian." Kinda sums up this situation.

    February 20, 2012 at 10:00 pm |
    • SPA Knight

      The stupid christian being Obama correct?

      February 21, 2012 at 11:24 am |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Santorum would be the best thing that ever happened to the Democrats. If he's the nominee, Obama wins, hands down. The voting public will not support a right-wing extremist like Santorum.

    February 20, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Truth

      February 20, 2012 at 9:52 pm |
    • Leo

      But they will vote for a Left wing socialist muslim who dresses himself up in sheeps clothing!!

      February 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo,
      You are just getting more pathetic by the moment. TIme to log off and sober up pal.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Leo, you're an idiot. Nobody is voting for a Muslim. What kind of stupid are you, and who made you so fucking dumb?

      February 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
    • Leo

      When a man calls the Koran holy he lays it out clearly his allegiance.

      February 20, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
    • Leo

      I forgot then let's look back at his bowing to the Saudi King

      February 20, 2012 at 11:34 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Great idea Leo, let's just go to war with everybody in the middle east and then turn over the US to China. Good politics! Now go eat your ice-cream while the grown ups talk mmmmm-k?

      February 20, 2012 at 11:48 pm |
    • Leo

      Where did I say go to war with anyone, you twist basic posts just like you do the bible.

      February 21, 2012 at 12:06 am |
    • Leo

      Tomtom is attempting to intimidate those who come against you a standard process when you and the others like you. Reverting to name calling isn't really that impressive....

      February 21, 2012 at 1:11 am |
    • Dance This Mess Around

      ** Leo

      But they will vote for a Left wing socialist muslim who dresses himself up in sheeps clothing!!
      ---------------------------------------------

      Leo, you still looking for that birth certificate ?

      February 21, 2012 at 10:28 am |
    • Ronald Reganzo

      Be very,very afraid. Rick Santorum can win the Presidency. President Obama has not been able to deliver on his promises and the 99% have no tangible improvement to show for the past four years. If gas prices continue to rise and Obama does nothing as usual he will lose the White House. A hurting huddled mass will not re-elect him when they are in pain, they will grasp at straws offered by the Republicans and right now that looks like Rick Santorum.

      February 21, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
  5. Thannak

    Okay, Reps elected a president nobody but a minority liked, and Dems elected a president only they like.

    Now Santorum is leading the charge in making every presidential candidate who ever lived look like they're flawless.

    February 20, 2012 at 9:46 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Ok.......I think that is a good thing.......?

      February 20, 2012 at 9:53 pm |
  6. Eugene

    Mixing Religion and Politics is Deadly Medicine.

    Religion and politics should not mix! Scripturally speaking, humankind was not designed to rule itself and since politics, according to Webster, has the principal definition, a. the art or science of government, and, b. the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy, surely we are stepping into an arena filled with lions.

    Bear with me, as I’m sure you are already fuming, and saying, ‘How in the world do we maintain order without someone to lay down the rules that we should follow?’

    Now, this is going to be a response based on the Bible, but it is extremely reasonable, and, if you stay and read to the end, YOU WILL GO AWAY SATISFIED. (Sorry for shouting in upper case.)

    The perfect Adam and Eve were created, as are we, with free will. Theirs was the ability to choose whether they would serve their loving Creator, or make the choice to go their own way. Ultimately, they accepted guidance from a serpent, identified later in the Bible (Revelation/Apocalypse 12:9) as Satan the Devil, and determined that their preference was independence from God. For this rebellious act, as perfect individuals, they were condemned to death, a heritage passed along to us, their offspring.

    Just like a baker’s pan that has been dented, and can only produce defective bread, we can only pass along a distorted genetic heritage to our offspring. That sentence has been inherited by each one of us, irrespective of our personal determination to do God’s will or not. We have no future, unless someone intervenes, but to endure sickness and finally death.

    According to the Hebrew Scriptures, the now-fallen human race (of two) was left alone to sort out its own destiny, but we get an idea of where things were going, because the Creator did express approval of certain individuals and used his holy spirit to give them help, guidance, and power, if they had need of it, e.g. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel, and the other ancient prophets. He even used his spirit to impregnate Mary to bear her son, Jesus, who would present himself to do God’s will, receiving the holy spirit, allowing him to fulfill his Father’s desire that he serve as the Messiah to the Hebrew people.

    By an arrangement of the Creator, Jesus was permitted to offer his perfect human life as a sacrifice, a ransom, to repurchase a further opportunity at life for sinful mankind. Said life was an undeserved kindness, and dependent upon the response of each individual to the will of God as expressed in the scriptures. [“When will this arrangement come into effect?” you ask. Well, the time allowed to Satan to work out his solution to his challenge to God (See Job chapters 1, 2) is just about up.]

    Later, this same Messiah, Jesus, would serve as the King of God’s Kingdom, a governmental organization spoken of at Daniel 2:44 as the agency which would itself take everlasting rulership over the earth, having destroyed every other form of rulership. Incredibly, the Our Father, or Lord’s Prayer, uttered daily be many millions, is a prayer for God’s own Government to take that hyper-destructive action.

    By emulating the example of the faithful men and women of old who received God’s spirit, we can win God’s favor, receiving help, spirit, and power. Consider how these ones are to be blessed by God. How can he reward them without bringing them back to life, as he did with Jesus?

    Revelation/Apocalypse 21:3, 4 speaks of the promise made to “mankind,” that death will be done away with. How can humans expect to be around when that promise is fulfilled while looking to politicians to draw up a very brief, shortly to become non-existent future for them?

    The political parties, and/or individuals, being voted for in the upcoming General Election, and any other political election, are vying for the dubious honor of being one of those governments that are slated for destruction by the now-appointed King.

    At John 18:33, Jesus refused a political position, considering himself ‘no part of this world.’ He identified his followers with the same expression. Hence, Christians should avoid entanglement in the world’s affairs. Let the world get on with its politics. Obviously their preference is not to use their free will to serve and obey God.

    Hopefully, this satisfies your needs. If not, leave a “Reply,” and perhaps we can enlarge on the post for you.

    February 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      The Hebrew scriptures did not talk about a "fallen" man. THAT is Paul's salvation paradigm, reinterpreted to jive with his new religion, Paulianity, (Christianity) .. as Bucky said. Yeshua bar Josef NEVER said he was a "savior", or that THAT was the reason he was executed.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:48 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Secular Society, Seperation of church and state. End of story. Live it or get lost.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:55 pm |
    • Helpful Hints

      Flinders,

      jive = a. Jazz or swing music. b. The jargon of jazz musicians and enthusiasts.

      jibe = to be in accord; agree

      February 20, 2012 at 9:55 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      @Helpful Hints
      Being a Jazz musician myself, I can tell you that "real" jazz, "fusion", "acid" and "Big Band" don't do "Jive". That is a totally different genre and is not really considerd Jazz.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      However, HH is right. "Jibe" means to agree with.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:45 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      I jibe with that TT

      February 20, 2012 at 10:48 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      Why thank you HH. You will get an extra crrrrrumpet at Tea Time tomorrow. Flinders learns something every day. Flinders just knew he "jibes" when he windsurfs.

      "Verb
      jibe (third-person singular simple present jibes, present participle jibing, simple past and past participle jibed)
      (intransitive, nautical) To perform a jibe
      (intransitive) To agree.
      That explanation doesn't jibe with the facts.
      (transitive, nautical) To cause to execute a jibe
      Usage notes
      "jive" and "jibe" are frequently used interchangeably in the U.S. to indicate the concept "to agree or accord". However, while one recent dictionary accepts this usage, most sources consider this an error."

      February 20, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
  7. Joy of Sin

    Realize that a "hidden God" is impossible

    Here is a line of reasoning that Christians will frequently use to try to rationalize the complete lack of evidence for God's existence. In the book "The Case for Faith," the author Lee Stroble interviews Peter Kreeft, Ph.D. Dr. Kreeft says the following:

    "Scripture describes God as a hidden God. You have to make the effort of faith to find him. There are clues you can follow. And if that weren't so, if there was something more or less than clues, it's difficult for me to understand how we could really be free to make a choice about him."

    Clues? Hidden? According to the Bible God incarnated himself. He created an entire human body named Jesus. That is not a "clue" - that is a huge, obvious piece of evidence. It is very hard to "hide" a 170-pound human being who is running around performing miracles on every street corner. Then you collect the stories of those miracles and publish them in a book. Where is the hiding in that?

    There are examples of God's desire for publicity throughout the Bible. The best known is God's parting of the Red Sea in the book of Exodus, chapter 14:

    Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.

    That is impressive, and it is utterly obvious. Thousands of Israelites witnessed this event. There are many other events that are equally obvious: manna from heaven, the Ten Commandments carved onto stone tablets, the Passover massacre and so on. All of it is described in the Bible, which God wrote so that billions of people can read about these events and experience them vicariously today.

    It is pretty hard to hide something that you do in front of thousands of people and then describe and publish in billions of books. Clearly God is not a hidden God.

    But there is an even more impressive sign that we often forget. If God exists and God wrote the Bible, then rainbows are actually proof that God exists. God is not hiding at all. If you read Genesis 9:12-13 you will find this:

    And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth..."
    What could be more obvious than that? God left a sign for all future generations, according to the Bible. Clearly God does not want to hide.

    There are also plenty of cases in the New Testament. For example, Matthew, Chapter 17:

    After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

    Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

    While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

    These are not exactly the actions of a God in hiding. Apparently the free wills of Peter, James and John were not that important to God. And again it is published in the Bible so that billions of other people can read about it.
    Or take this passage from the book of Matthew, Chapter 3:

    As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

    Again, not exactly a hidden God.

    Or this passage from the book of Luke, Chapter 2:

    And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
    Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

    When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

    The free will of the shepherds was certainly tarnished a bit here.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:6, Paul says,

    Then he [Jesus, after the resurrection] appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time.
    Those 500 people must have lost their free will. And John says:
    Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

    That's an awful lot of miracles - so many that the world would not have room for all the books describing them. Presumably at least one person witnessed each miracle. Think of how many names fill just one phone book. Now imagine a whole world full of phone books. That's a lot of people. Weren't all of their free wills affected? How is God hiding if millions of people saw Jesus and the miracles he performed?

    Jesus claims to be God, and Jesus is a physical being running around Israel for all to see. He apparently performed millions of miracles in front of millions of people. The God of the Bible is not hiding - God is so hungry for publicity and exposure that he actually incarnates himself and then starts performing miracles for everyone on the planet. Then he creates a God-breathed book to describe everything and publishes billions of copies all over the world.

    Yet, for some reason, God wants none of us today to see any of those miracles because he "needs to remain hidden" so that he will not "taint our free wills." Does that seem likely? Or is it more likely that Jesus never performed a real miracle? When you combine this evidence with the fact that Jesus answers no prayers, it is clear to us what is actually happening. The idea that God is "hiding" is ridiculous. The fact is that God is completely imaginary, and that is the real reason why there is absolutely no evidence for God today.

    February 20, 2012 at 9:24 pm |
    • Leo

      What a crackup... you sit there and bag on me about original thinking because I quote the bible and your are cutting and pasting from some Atheist Site!! whywontgodhealamputees.com/god19.htm

      Who is indoctrinated??

      February 20, 2012 at 9:28 pm |
    • Thannak

      "If you do your job right, nobody will think you did anything at all."
      -God, Futurama.

      But seriously, why is it atheists are the only ones who actively try to recruit and convert? You really think a WOLOLOLOLO on CNN is going to actually turn someone who has been told from birth "Lack of proof is proof" to anything you say?

      February 20, 2012 at 9:45 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Wow Leo, you finally got a clue. Took a while. However, the web site I found this gem on is http://www.godisimaginary.com

      You are the indocrinated one to answer your question.

      AND I am a contributing editor to the site, but hey, who is checking the facts.....I mean, you believe in the Bilble LOL

      February 20, 2012 at 9:46 pm |
    • Leo

      The day will come when you will see how wrong you are. You wonder why God doesn't hear your prayers?

      Proverbs 15:29
      The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo, you have finally become pathetic. Do I wonder why god doesn't hear my prayers???

      1. THERE IS NO GOD
      2. If there is, as according to you he doesn't hear YOUR prayers. What prayers has he ever answered? Name one! You can't and you will neve be able to because GOD DOESN'T ANSWER PRAYERS DUM ASS.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:17 pm |
    • Leo

      Psalm 14:1
      The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

      February 20, 2012 at 10:26 pm |
    • Leo

      You quoted that perfectly!!

      February 20, 2012 at 10:26 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo, and this is not just about you.....but you will go to bed tonight wondering if you are really as stupid as we have said you are. The answer is yes. Now, consider two of worst presidents in US history, Reagan and W. Many really stupid people voted for them. W completely destroyed our economy while the GOP tries to blame it on Obama. You are stupid. The GOP is stupid. And we can only hope intelligent people other than you get out there and vote.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
  8. Bobs Friend

    Joy:
    I once went through all of these arguments and surmised myself quite intelligent. I can even refute all of your points, but you can do that yourself with a little investigation regarding all of the arguments you make. The problem is, in order to be honest, you'd have to entertain the idea that you could be wrong about God, but your proud heart will not allow it. I will pray for you.
    I used to be like you, but then one day I took Jesus up on His offer:
    The Bible says whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Jn14 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

    Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

    The day I took Jesus up on His offer He indeed revealed Himself to me in a powerful way; in a way you wouldn't believe or understand. I was transformed at that time and continue to be transformed by my relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Wake up, you are dead in your trespasses and sins. Repent and believe and you will be saved.

    February 20, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Believe what you want, I don't care.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:28 pm |
    • Leo

      Joy, Bobs right I hope you listen!

      February 20, 2012 at 9:33 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      What the hell did you expect the bible to say ? Using the bible to support the bible's views, is CIRCULAR. STOP quoting the bible, and provide something OBJECTIVE !

      February 20, 2012 at 9:38 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo,
      Listen to another fruitcake like you? bobs? OMG

      February 20, 2012 at 9:57 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Leo, Bob's Friend is a fucking moron.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
  9. Galloping Ghost

    Two comments:

    Catholic vs. Protestant=Sunni vs. Shiite

    "There are doubtless theological discussions to be had here. In fact, Americans have been having them since the Reformation"

    How can Americans have been arguing about anything since the Reformation? The USA was established in 1776. The Reformation occurred during the first half of the 1500's!

    That's as bad as the Texas governor who held up a Bible and said "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me!"

    February 20, 2012 at 9:13 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Can I just say this, totally not in context or anything. Texas Governers are the stupidist people on the planet. I don't know why but it is what it is. Could it be the voters? I have family there so this hurts.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:01 pm |
  10. Bobs Friend

    Jesus was clear that many people will believe they are Christians when they are not:
    Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

    Anyone who supports the legality of tearing a fetus limb from limb from it's mothers womb (Which is what happens in many late term abortions) is by no means a Christian. This is barbaric and a position that can only be held by a heart devoid of the Holy Spirit.

    February 20, 2012 at 8:42 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Support Planned Parenthood! Support Freedom!

      February 20, 2012 at 8:45 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      Exactly how many "late term" abortions were done last year ?

      February 20, 2012 at 9:40 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Who are you asking??

      February 20, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      No one does "late term" ABs anymore, except for extreme medical emergencies. It's a CROCK, by ignorant fools, who have probably never seen the inside of a hospital.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Idiots who believe that late term abortions are done on a whim are too stupid to be answered.

      Just shut up.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:00 pm |
    • Bobs Friend

      Regardless how few times it happens IT IS BARBARIC and liberal "Christians" like Barack Obama support it.

      They expose their own hypocrisy when they say they want to "reduce the number of abortions" .
      If abortion was at all a moral act, we would want to do more of it. Since they obviously cannot do that, they are forced into an embarrassing logical corner.
      You liberals call yourselves logical but you act like barbaric animals. as the Bible says
      Lk 7:35 "But wisdom is shown to be right by the lives of those who follow it"
      and
      Proverb 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."

      EXACTLY .......preach on King Solomon!!! He really nailed it there!!

      February 21, 2012 at 12:13 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Late-term abortions are done to save the life and health of the woman. Don't like it? Keep your little friend in your pants and don't get anyone pregnant. Women who have these procedures are at risk or the fetus is so abnormal that it will not survive. EIther way, it's none of your business. It simply isn't. I vote for candidates who value the worth of women and don't worship fetuses at their expense.

      February 21, 2012 at 8:25 am |
    • SPA Knight

      Correction: All abortions are barbaric at any stage. Destruction of life at any stage from conception to natural death is inhumane.

      February 21, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      That is YOUR opinion. You have no facts to support this opinion. I am of a different opinion. And the law is on my side.

      February 21, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
  11. d

    I THINK ITS FOOLISH OF BOTH OF YOU WE BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE.I DO BELIEVE AND GOD BUT IF ANYONE CHOOSE NOT TO THATS THERE RIGHT BUT WHEN THE END COMES WE'LL ALL SEE SO NO NEED IN ALL THIS FOOLISHNESS

    February 20, 2012 at 8:40 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      d
      1. Good for you.
      2. I think you left your caps lock on.
      3. The Ice King is hiding in my horse costume.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:44 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      d
      No, you will never "see". When you die, your brain chemistry stops. You will "see" nothing. Your consciousness will end, just as it does frequently in those before death, who have various brain injuries, anoxia, and neoplasms.NO dead being has EVER come back to life.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:42 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      But gee wiz Flinders, haven't you heard the good news? Jesus Christ came back from the dead after sacrifising himself for your sins! If you pray to God, er.....Jesues......er......the Ghosty.....well one of those, you will get to join God ......er.....Jesus....welll whatever.....in the Kindom of Heaven! Praise God!

      February 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
  12. Leo

    There are a lot of elements of Christianity that other religions share. In example Christianity starts with the foundation in the belief in God, as do many other religions especially the other monotheistic religions. Please notice the kind of God I am talking about here is not some force in the universe as is believed in many of the eastern religions, but rather a God that is a person, and this person is different from that which he created. So it isn’t that everything is God which is the case with pantheism of the eastern religions, but again this God created something separate from himself and there is a clear distinction of the two. Part of what he created are personal beings, part of which are human beings in particular and in addition you have all the animals. Human beings are separate and unique from all other creatures. These previous points once again are believed by many religions, but there are also many religions that don’t make this clear distinction as with some forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and others which believe in the transmigration of the soul through reincarnation from humans to animals and vice versa.

    When it comes to Christianity and Judaism God has created human beings as unique and special made in some sense in his image which sets them distinctly apart from all other creatures. There is another observation that can be made of human beings and that is that humans can be both noble and cruel. There is a certain nobility and dignity of human beings that sets him above the animal kingdom, which we can find in the great works of art they produce and the humanitarian gestures that are performed. On the other hand they can be very cruel and there is also something twisted and broken about human beings, so we have this anomaly. The Christian and biblical world view helps us makes sense of this for man in the beginning was made in the image of God with noble characteristics, but through rebellion against God something happened and something got broken and something got twisted. This twisted and broken human being leads to a twisted and broken world.

    There is however great hope for God did not just leave it at that though he might have if he so willed, but rather out of love he reached down to mankind with a rescue effort. This rescue effort was not for him to toss some teaching our way and hope we would live better lives, but rather Gods rescue effort is that he came down himself to communicate in the most clear form possible his intentions and desires, and to make a sacrificial provision for pardon for mans crimes against God. So the incarnation of God becoming a man through Jesus is unique, and what Jesus did was take the penalty of the crimes of man upon himself so that human beings could be freed. He took the rap for the crimes against God, so that those that trust in him then could receive the pardon that the Father offered. This is another unique element, not only does God come down and reach out to man, but he gives him a free pardon of his crimes. The solution to the problem is not in making man better so as to make up for past deeds, for that doesn’t work. The solution is grace, it is an act of unmerited mercy on God’s part. It is not by any moral behavior that we qualify for salvation, it is actually our crimes against God that qualify us for his pardon and rescue. It is a pardon that God is willing to do graciously as we respond to that gift.

    February 20, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo,

      What proof do you have for any of this??

      You were indoctrinated into a cult, handed a book and then lied to. Congratulations on thinking for yourself!

      I would respond to your separate points, but it is just the same ‘ol drivel.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
    • Leo

      Tell me Joy were you raised a Christian?

      February 20, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Yes, but I was not hammered over the head with it. I went to church some Sundays (not regularly). I think going to church is the worst thing ever for a kid. Sooooooooooooo boring. Why do people go to church anyway? If I were a Christian, I would worship at the beach or at the pub. Anyway I digress.

      I went to "bible school" or what I now refer to as boot camp where the children begin their indoctrication into the cult. It was then when I was about 7 or 8 that I realized how completely ridiculous the bible was.

      So I dropped out completely and was not forced by my partents thanks goodness. Later in my teens, I became a "seeker". I read the Bible, I went to every church in town to see the differences between them and what their message was. They all fell short of common sense.

      So, I become agnostic. You can call me an athiest, it's easier, but technically I am a weak agnostic.

      So reading the bible and going to church convinced me that religion is 100% bogus.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:56 pm |
    • Leo

      What do you think about end times prophesies in the Bible like Israel gathered from all the nations at the end of times? All the Nations coming against it? What about some others signs that will appear before the end? When you start seeing things unfold do you think you would change your mind?

      February 20, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo,
      I don't believe any of it and you know that. The "end of times" for people will come when Yellowstone blows up, or we get hit by an asteroid or we have a nuclear war or the ozone layer gets depleted beyond recovery. We will kill ourselves. There will be no Rapture. And when we are gone, the Earth and it's other children, the other animals, can breathe a breath of fresh air. Humans are parasites, and we are killing our host. But the Earth will quickly recover when we are gone. And the Earth will still spin and birds and whales will still sing hopefully. If we haven't made them all extinct before we are gone.

      Roaches and Ants shall inherit the world.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
    • Leo

      So if you don't believe all that why are you so against Christianity? Why do you care if people believe what they do and go on their merry way. You seem to be pushing your beliefs on people yet you seem to hate people that do the same to you? What hope do you have that would want someone to be like you? I just don't understand your motives, but again I can find an explanation in the bible for it......

      February 20, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo, again you are squarely behind the eight ball.

      I am not against Christianity. I don’t agree with it, but believe what you want to believe, it’s your life, what do I care.

      I don’t hate anyone and I don’t push my beliefs on others. I SHARE them on the BELIEF blog. That is why we have this forum thanks to CNN.

      My motives? I will fight for a secular America. I will not be told what to do or how to behave or what to believe by Christians. It is that simple. KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS. Separation of Church and State.

      You do understand that this article is about Santorum, right?

      February 20, 2012 at 9:37 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      If your god were not such a jerk, there would be no "penalty". Why can't she just say "oh forget it" ?

      February 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Leo, do you even possess a brain? Any common sense? It doesn't look like it.

      Why should I care what a dim bulb like you has to say when you spout idiocy about late-term abortion? You're male. You'll never have to face pregnancy. You'll never have to make a decision about it.

      Just S T F U and realize you're too stupid to comment.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
  13. Athanasius

    But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

    ~ St. Apostle Paul

    February 20, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
    • Kebos

      I judge those that are in the church. Those who belong to a religion and especially those that head up a church are in it for wealth, power and control. Nothing more, nothing less. Look at the man who is a leader in his church and you will see one who has desire for power, control and wealth.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
    • Athanasius

      The message is not for you, Kebos, it's for the Christian community.

      If Obama claims to be a Christian he will be judged by all Christians as to his likeness to the Christian standard.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, will he? And what, exactly is that "standard" and who sets it? You? The right-wing-nuts? Please, don't make me laugh. Most people don't give a rat's patootie whether Obama's a "Christian" according to some nut-job's standards. What they DO care about is whether he can continue to move the country forward economically.

      I wonder, do you even know what color the sky is on this planet?

      February 20, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
  14. Kebos

    The only think a Christian likes to talk about more than "what would Jesus do" is "why they are a good Christian and better that that person". It's pathetic.

    February 20, 2012 at 8:20 pm |
    • AGuest9

      And on Sunday morning, talk about what everyone else is wearing and who is still hung over from last night.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      That, and whisper about so-and-so's daughter who 'got pregnant' and how 'terrible' her morals must be and how it must be her parents' fault she got knocked up, and how no daughter of mine would ever be....oh, wait...isn't little Dottie looking a tad chubby about the middle? You don't suppose? Oh, hell!

      February 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm |
  15. mir

    Santorum: would-be American Taliban. Look up what C. S. Lewis wrote about theocracy.

    February 20, 2012 at 8:16 pm |
  16. Jonathan

    I don't know about Santorum choosing who is a Christian or not, but it sure is easy enough to spot someone who isn't acting like a Christian. Jesus said it himself. You will know them by their fruits (their actions). Those that speak and their actions do not follow are LIARS.

    February 20, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And of course, YOU are surely capable of judging, aren't you, Jonny?

      Yeah, we've all seen how 'capable' you are.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
    • Jonathan

      "Tommy", your as-sessment of me has no tangible weight. I am not impressed nor browbeaten by your 'judgement' of me. You are akin to a fly buzzing over a mound of dung.

      Lets clarify my meaning of 'judge'. It is not to condemn or pass sentence, it is to evaluate and measure. Christians are called to be judges of one another and the bible warns that the measure you use to judge others, you will be judged by as well. I am fully aware of my own flaws and am not quick to judge others, but I do judge actions, just as you should. I will call out actions that are 'unChristian' and bring them out into the light.

      February 21, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're a dolt who throws around a word you don't even spell correctly, Jonnie.

      If you aren't impressed, stop responding.

      February 21, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "A mound of dung"? Don't be so hard on yourself, Jonnie.

      February 21, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
  17. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer Changes things .

    February 20, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Proven (no need to thank me)

      February 20, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • AGuest9

      I choose to live my life free of delusion.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:12 pm |
    • just wondering

      free from delusion = free from responsibility and moral conviction, don't want anyone telling this selfish sob what to do.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:16 pm |
    • Kebos

      Just wondering: Really? To be free from delusion means free from moral conviction and responsibility? Ha! That's a farce!

      It is the atheist who does good deeds for selfless reasons. They need not have some book tell them what to do or not do. Or that to do something kind or selfless will get them into some celestial club in some supposed afterlife.

      You need to ground yourself better in reality. Perhaps be a bit more open-minded.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
    • just wondering

      Would that be good deeds like atheist Stalin imprisoning, torturing and murdering 24 million people?

      February 20, 2012 at 8:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, Just Lying, do you really think Stalin wouldn't have done any such thing if he'd believed in your God? In your Christ?

      Yeah, right. Because no self-professed "Christian" ruler EVER committed atrocities and mass murder, right?

      You idiot.

      February 20, 2012 at 10:14 pm |
  18. Joy of Sin

    Realize that God is impossible

    If you consult the dictionary, here is the first definition of God that you will find:

    "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

    Most believers would agree with this definition because they share a remarkably clear and consistent view of God. Yes, there are thousands of minor quibbles about religion. Believers express those quibbles in dozens of denominations -
    Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists and such. But at the heart of it all, the belief in God aligns on a set of core ideas that everyone accepts.

    What if you were to simply think about what it would mean if there were a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe? Is it possible for such a being to exist? Epicures thought about it in 300 BCE, and he came up with this:

    "The gods can either take away evil from the world and will not, or, being willing to do so, cannot; or they neither can nor will, or lastly, they are both able and willing. If they have the will to remove evil and cannot, then they are not omnipotent. If they can, but will not, than they are not benevolent. If they are neither able nor willing, then they are neither omnipotent nor benevolent. Lastly, if they are both able and willing to annihilate evil, how does it exist?"

    In other words, if you sit and think about who God is supposed to be, you realize that such a being is impossible. Ridiculous, in fact.

    Take this quote from the Bible. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

    Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

    The impossibility of God is visible here as well. Based on Jesus' statement, let's assume that you are a child and you are starving in Ethiopia. You pray for food. What would you expect to happen based on Jesus' statement? If God exists as an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful parent - a "father in heaven" - you would expect God to deliver food to you. In fact, the child should not have to pray. Normal parents provide food to their children without their children having to beg for it. Yet, strangely, on planet Earth today we find tens of millions of people dying of starvation every year.

    Another way to approach the impossibility of God is to think about the concept of omniscience. If God is omniscient, then it means that he knows every single thing that happens in the universe, both now and infinitely into the future. Do you have free will in such a universe? Clearly not. God knows everything that will happen to you. Therefore, the instant you were created, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. To create someone knowing that that person will be damned to hell for eternity is the epitome of evil.

    Here is another way to understand the impossibility of God. If you look at the definition of God, you can see that he is defined as the "originator and ruler of the universe". Why does the universe need an originator - a creator? Because, according to religious logic, the universe cannot exist unless it has a creator. A believer will say, "nothing can exist unless it is created."

    However, that statement immediately constructs a contradiction, because we must then wonder who created God. For a believer the answer to that is simple - "God is the one thing that does not need a creator. God is timeless and has always existed." How can it be that the everything MUST have a creator, while God must NOT?

    The contradiction in the definition of God is palpable.

    As soon as you think about the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient being, you realize the impossibility of the concept. That impossibility is yet another way to see that God is imaginary.

    February 20, 2012 at 7:33 pm |
    • Leo

      In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. And this is the greatest profanity and wickedness.

      There is nothing new under the sun, for you see the writings above are from Justin [A.D. 110–165.]

      February 20, 2012 at 7:56 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Does "Leo" have any writings? I am sick of all your nonsense from ancient books. It is 2012 brother. Let's take a step forward? Again, you argue nothing in my post and make no relavent reply.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
    • Jonathan

      "However, that statement immediately constructs a contradiction, because we must then wonder who created God."

      Just wanted to point out: As deep as this subject is, you are missing one very relevant piece of information. Casuality (the whole cause/effect relationship where everything must have a cause) does not apply in a timeless enviroment. God is often spoken of as eternal and infinite. What can be more so than a place where time does not exist? Should God reside in a place like this, within or without our own universe/reality, he would have no need of a creator.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:16 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Thank you and that is a complex and fascinating scientific variable which could apply this universe, a multiverse, or any number of exotic possibilites for existence, including the one where no god is needed. But,in fact, it does not apply here, because the god I am describing works on a time line, knowing everthing that has come before and everything the yet will come.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
    • Leo

      In order for a God to understand time from beggining to end he would have to be outside of it as is true with the God of the Bible.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo,
      1. Why?
      2. I never said he couldn't be outside of it. But he still relies on the same time line we do. According to you.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Hey Leo,
      Do you drink? (be honest)
      And if so, what is your favorite spirit (and don't say the Holy Spirit you nut) lol

      I love Grey Goose vodka myself. Martini man.

      February 20, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
    • Flinders the butler

      Leo,
      Define "existence". (Be sure and don't use ANY word or term which requires space-time to proceed..because if you do, it will mean god could not exist in that dimension).

      February 20, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
    • Jonathan

      @Joy:

      An infinite and eternal God that exists in a timeless enviroment, able to create a space in this vast enviroment where there is time and everything within it has a beginning and an end, would be able to see the entire length of time, because to him, it is all happening, has happened and is going to happen. If He is powerful enough to create a 'time-space' enviroment, He must know how it works and can interact with in.

      For God to interact with men, who function in a universe that relies on causality, he must do so in a linear fashion so that he could be understood. To not do so would not be logical. Stopping in at 5pm one day and saying you will be back shortly, only to reappear at 2pm that same day expecting the man to know you were coming, that doesnt follow the actions of a logical God.

      I understand that some of this might be hard to swallow or even understand, but give it a shot. Working on theoretical extra dimensions can leave even the most able person lost. We are, after-all, only built to truly know our 3 dimensions and our linear view of time.

      February 21, 2012 at 11:22 am |
  19. Leo

    Once again you have it all wrong... could you provide us an example of where the Bible claims these are magical?

    Maybe when you pary God does not desire to hear YOU because he knows your heart?

    Proverbs 15:29
    The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous.

    February 20, 2012 at 7:33 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo,
      I am not claiming the bible said they are magical. The bible is not divine and I could really care less what it says anyway. Common sense tells us it is "magical". That is the point of the post. Do you really not get it? I AM DRAWING A PARALLEL BETWEEN GOD AND FAIRY TALES. I guess I really do have to spell it out for you. Anywya, I have it absolutely right. Why do you keep sending me bible versus from that horrific bible? Believe what you want, I don't care. Just stay away from the kids.

      February 20, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
    • Kebos

      Parting the Red Sea.
      Raising the dead.
      Burning and talking bush.
      Multiplying the breadha nd fish.
      Water to wine.
      Walking on water.
      Virginal birth.

      ....shall I go on?

      February 20, 2012 at 8:26 pm |
  20. Joy of Sin

    When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example:

    • The Mormon religion contains the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc.

    • The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc.

    • The Christian faith contains the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on.

    The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic.

    According to believers, God is an all-powerful being who has the divine, magical power to do anything. How do we know that this belief is a fairy tale? One way to know is to try to invoke God's magical power. The Bible tells us in many places that God answers prayers. However, whenever we try to pray, we notice that nothing happens. That tells us that God is completely imaginary. The magical powers ascribed to him are a fairy tale.

    Another way to know is to read the stories of magical events in the Bible. There is the magical flood, yet we know with certainty that the flood never happened. There are the magical miracles of Jesus, but (predictably) none of these miracles left behind any tangible evidence There is the magical resurrection, yet there is zero evidence that it ever occurred and no reason to believe it.

    God is identical to Leprechauns, mermaids and Santa. God is a magical fairy tale creature. The magic surrounding God tells us that God is imaginary.

    February 20, 2012 at 7:10 pm |
    • momoya

      Now to convince the public!

      February 20, 2012 at 7:24 pm |
    • Leo

      Romans 1 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

      There is still hope for you but you need to make a 180 and head down the other road.

      February 20, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Hey Leo, don't talk to Momoya like that!

      Seriously though, why?

      February 20, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      Leo, are you typing up something good? I hope it is not more bible verses, ick.
      Why do I need to make a 180? And I don't believe in hell so no need to go there.
      Have you ever thought for yourself Leo? Did anyone ever let you when you were growing up? You are making me sad.

      February 20, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • Leo

      Nope I was eating dinner, I find it funny that you say don't talk to Momoya like that, and then you admit I was talking to you about the 180?? You seem to use Bible verses, why would you expect Christians not to? I use the scriptures because they are just as meaningful today as they were when they were inspired.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:40 pm |
    • Joy of Sin

      I hate to do it, but I have to say, you are about a brick shy Leo.

      1. I was joking ?!?!
      2. I "reference" Bible verses. I don't copy and paste them as my reply.
      3. Can you tie your own shoes. You are "special needs" aren't you....it's ok to admit it.

      February 20, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.