February 22nd, 2012
05:11 PM ET
After Anne Frank baptism, Mormons vow to discipline members
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor
(CNN) - Reacting to a report that well-known Holocaust victim Anne Frank had been baptized by proxy in a Mormon temple, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says it is committed to disciplining members of its church who conducted such baptisms, which violate church policy.
Word of the Frank baptism came a week after the issue of Mormon posthumous proxy baptism of Jews attracted national attention. This controversy surfaced after it was reported that the dead parents of Jewish Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal had been baptized in a Mormon temple.
The church apologized for that baptism, blaming it on a technical glitch in its system for submitting names for posthumous proxy baptism.
“It takes a good deal of deception and manipulation to get an improper submission through the safeguards we have put in place,” LDS Church spokesman Michael Purdy said in a statement Tuesday, responding to the report about the Anne Frank baptism.
Explainer: How and why do Mormons baptize the dead?
Though the church regularly conducts proxy baptisms for dead, in what it calls an attempt to give everyone a chance to accept salvation through Jesus, it has a 1990s-era policy against conducting such baptisms for Holocaust victims.
The policy was adopted after complaints from Jewish groups, which said it was offensive to conduct Mormon baptisms for Holocaust victims who were killed because of their Jewish faith.
“The Church keeps its word and is absolutely firm in its commitment to not accept the names of Holocaust victims for proxy baptism,” said Purdy in his Tuesday statement.
The church said it is “committed to taking action against individual abusers by suspending the submitter’s access privileges,” the statement continued. “We will also consider whether other Church disciplinary action should be taken.”
According to Helen Radkey, a former Mormon who tracks Mormon posthumous proxy baptisms, the one for Anne Frank was conducted on Saturday in the Dominican Republic.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
They can go ahead and baptize people by proxy, but be aware that just because they baptize someone by proxy, it doesn't really make the deceased any more Mormon, except in the minds of the baptizers. Furthermore, did they have any actual consent from Anne Frank for such a baptism? Meh. LOL
Bizarre, and creepy.
Where do Mormons get off on baptising (and/or marrying the dead, because they do that too especially if you're a woman) by proxy anyway? I am not Mormon, I know about the Mormon religion, and I have chosen not to follow it because it goes against nearly everything I hold as important. Just because I'm dead does not mean that the Mormon church has any right to violate that choice. Religion should be within the private sector, so keep it to yourselves and stop pushing it onto others. Whether it's a Jewish Holocaust victim or your average aunt, freedom of religion also means freedom FROM it. Leave it be.
There is no violation of choice here. Just because a baptism was done on that deceased person's behalf doesn't mean that the deceased person has to accept it. Since you claimed to know so much about the church then you should already know about the concept of free agency.
I just think it's an insult. I don't want my name anywhere in their database, but I won't get that choice, will I? I don't care if they think they are being "fair" it's a blanant insult to those whose ancestors had to fight to practise their own religion and who died for it.
Kev, it's not respecting the life lived, here on earth, as a real person with a unique history and choices. Whatever you guys do in the extra life of your own personal holy video game is your business. When you seek to subject real lives to your spiritual imperialism, that bothers the rest of us.
You can couch it in these terms of "free agency" but you are basically telling every human life lived on this planet that they don't matter, according to your cosmology. The only choice they ever have to really make is being Mormon or burning.
I am aware that most religions are build on strange and barbarous conversion and proselytizing mythologies ( not all, not the ones I respect.) The Mormon mythology says volumes about what the LDS hopes to achieve not only in their Celestial Kingdom by on this Earth, my Earth, as well.
@plot, How does one take away ones memory of what they did in life anyway? All we have in recognizing a deceased individual is by what they did in life. A postumas baptism doesn't take away what they did in life. It provides an opprotunity for that individual to build on that what they were not able to receive in life, should they choose to accept it.
No Kev, you see nothing about the individual at all. The mass proxy baptisms prove that. You might feel you are delivering these poor souls out of hell. That's your fantasy, which is awfully convenient and threatening. To people who live according to their own creeds and morality, it's insulting to tell them they are incomplete without being introduced to LDS after death by people who don't give a crap who they are at all.
Plot, all this is about is an invitation. One's does not have accept it, and frankly it is ultimately up to the deceased individual whether or not to accept it. I cannot speak on a deceased person's behalf and neither can you. The proxy baptism is not a forced decree; it's an invitation.
Helen Radkey has admitted to hacking into the system for "research" so it is entirely plausible that she is inserting these names and then blaming the church for her own actions.
Unlike many Chrisitians, I have no issue with Mormons. The reason that I'm not voting for Romney has nothing to do with his religion. Having said that – where were the Mormons during the Holocaust? Their help would have been much more appreciated while most of European Jewry was still living.
Good question! Love it!
Where was all the Mormon charity during Katrina or on 9/11, too? Mitt Romney claims his untaxed income went to charity in the form of millions of Pepsi stock shares to the Mormon church. What charity exactly was produced by that agreement? Haiti earthquake? Inner-city schools? Drug rehabs? Children's hospitals? Indonesian Tsunami?
I ain't no Catholic but you can't knock their excellent charity hospitals and elder care.
The Latter Day Saints were also a part of the persecutions by the Nazi regime. There are many life accounts of their struggles to survive in the church records. We were absolutely a part of the Katrina clean up. I am sorry the LDS people are so hated by so many. We really do not try to cripple your lives. I believe the LDS community will have to wait until the next life to be understood for their efforts. Until thien Latter Day Saints just accept it and continue to do good. We also respect the work these other faiths accomplish for the sake of humanity.
Romney Mormons only do humanitarian efforts as a "beachhead" for spearheading a missionary effort to push their Book of Mormon.
Sure, it is good, the humanitarian aid arrived, and did good, they help to clean up after Katrina, but it's sole purpose is to be an advertisement for their white shirts to bring in the Book of Mormon.
Charity under disquise is not charity.
NoMormonInWhiteHouse blogspot com
@Today – Yes, perhaps their greed, arrogance, elitism and impudence will be understood in the next. The Bible contains those teachings, as the Koran teaches terrorism and Taoism teaches animal abuse. Mormon studies are fantastic, baptizing Holocaust victims. I hope that some religion in the world holds true for no doubt there is reserved seating is some tortuous hell for Mormons and Nazi's alike.
As for their accounts, I believe this is the same church that bases its entirety on the accounts of one man, written by one man, testified by one man. Good Plan!
Doesn't matter if a few Mormons were persecuted by Nazis. The point is – how can Mormons DARE to baptist Jews they were unwilling to help during the Holocaust? No, I don't believe this proxy baptism makes a bit if difference except what it tells me about the Mormon religion – that it is trying to dominate all mankind.
What if the Mormons decide to start writing history and burning all books that contradict them. Everyone becomes a Mormon because it's on their holy proxy baptism records. If you think that's a fantasy, that is pretty much what the Catholic church did to pagan deities and practices – made them all about Jesus. Christians and Muslims have burned millions of records, books and artworks that contradicted their crazy stories.
Any religion seeking control over reality is dangerous. I think it's nearly criminal that Mormons would seek to subvert people's lives and histories with this baptism crap. How much history to Mormons read or care about? Do they even look at the lives they are baptizing? I bet it's only important to make them Mormon, not how these people lived, what they thought or believed. Look for the Mormon label! That's all that matters.
The LDS Church was one of the first responders to Katrina and many other disasters around the world. For as few members there are worldwide, they do a great deal of humanitarian aid. The Wall Street Journal wrote an excellent article on their humanitarian efforts and Welfare program. Just Google "WSJ Mormon Welfare".
Brian, thank-you! I will.
From what I've understood was that most LDS members during the Holocost were living in the U.S., which was of course during WWII, which many LDS members served in the U.S. armed forces; the same armed forces that took part in the liberation of the concentration camps. LDS missionary efforts were put on hold in Europe during the war.
In the end it is just rude.
Is it rude to leave flowers on a grave? Both are acts of love. A wise man once said, "Only a fool takes offense where none is intended."
Just how rude is it to invite someone to a party where there was no obligation to accept that invitation? Becuase that's whats happening here regarding the proxy baptisms for the dead.
Brian, it is rude to leave flowers on a Jewish grave. Or at best culturally ignorant. Also, a baptism isn't exactly a bouquet. Throughout history Jews have been forcibly converted or faced death. Now we're being baptized in death. It's rude. And it's offensive to suggest that we need a "chance at salvation." No thank you.
You might notice the trend that Jewish organizations all find it rude and offensive. There are some individual Jews who do not find it offensive (but still do not think it makes any difference to their dead ancestors) but they are in the minority. Most all Jews find this offensive or terribly offensive. You don't care the least bit how we feel. From our perspective it is very rude. You might want to deeply consider that and think about WHY it is so offensive.
What are you people afraid of? If baptisms for the dead are false doctrine then these baptisms are a waste of time. However, if baptisms for the dead are a true doctrine then many souls are being saved to live with a merciful God. All of your arguments are useless unless the doctrine is true, so stop bantering the issue. Its a non-issue.
Christ was and is a fraud and baptism is a pagen
Because it's RUDE and ARROGANT and totally undermines how people live their lives and make their choices.
It also betrays an underlying tendency in the LDS for domination of both the living and dead. Any religion that wants the whole history of mankind to be Mormon, even by proxy, has a very scary agenda ultimately.
These are not the kind of people who live-and-let-live and respect other religions and beliefs. These are people who want control. I don't want to live in their universe, or anywhere that neighbors it.
As a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, I can tell you that most of the views expressed here are by those who don't actually know what they are talking about. They are baised on misconception, distortions, and some out right lies.
Baptism by proxy is not done to override anothers free will. Even God himself can't do that. We do believe that baptism must be done here on earth, by proper authority, for the individual soul to be exhaulted to the higher levels of Heaven. In baptising those who have died by proxy, we are giving them the choice to accept Christ as their savior and greatest opportunity to dwell in the presence of God. We are only offering a gift to those who may have died without knowing Christ. It is totally the individual souls choice wether or not to accept this gift.
Jews do not need to accept your Christ as Lord. Jews have a God, and is not a man.
This behaviiour is not unlike the Romans 2000 years ago, and the Spanish Inquisitors 500 years ago.Smells of blood libel to me.
By performing posthumous baptisms on Jews who have perished in the Shoah you attempt take away "Kiddush Hashem" The Sanctification of the Name ( Jews who have been murdered-because they were Jews. )
Shame on you.
Sadly, the Bible doesn't support these teachings in any way, shape or form.
Pare away all the pretty sentiment (offering salvation, oh joy), and it's Mormons trolling for new members. The living evidently just aren't enough for them.
I don't believe in heaven at all, but this practice is so tacky, so disrespectful of the lives of real people. It's truly warped. How dare Mormons assume that souls just can't refuse this last, bargain basement, offer of the Celestial Kingdom. For cat's sake! How do you people live with yourselves? I'd never assume my cosmology MUST be offered to everyone, living or dead, or BURN! How arrogant!
How would you fee if someone of some other religion did the same to you and your ancestors? What if Muslims were doing this and reading the Quran over your grandparents grave to offer them the chance to become Muslim so they don't burn in hell? Would you think that was just fine? Would you appreciate their efforts to keep you and your loved ones from hell?
Regardless of how YOU feel, we Jews find this EXTREMELY offensive. It is also arrogant. You don't know our religion. If you haven't studied it from a practicing Jew (and in fact from many Jews since Judaism has various types) you don't know our religion. Learning of it from a Morman isn't going to teach you Judaism. Yet without knowing Judaism you think we are going to hell. Jews died at the hands of people who killed them for not being christian. Then Mormans offer these murdered Jews the 'chance' to accept your religion and can't see how offensive that is? Think if things were reversed and almost all Mormans had been murdered by a group who then did similar post-death 'conversions'. Bet you wouldn't like it one little bit.
Well, I have been in the cult for five years, and having discovered that Mormons would offer even the possibility of Hitler accepting the gospel of Mormonism, baptize him, and put him in the same group as the Jewish Holocaust victims is SICK.
The official rules of proxy baptisms are not followed since the geneology efforts of the Mormons have slowed down the available names, and the Romney Mormons just couldn't help themselves, six millions names – it was GIFT from the MORMON GOD, so who cares if a few Jewish people are offended.
The American Jewish voters need to demonstrate their disapproval at the ballot box.
Remember Isreal, Romney will baptize the Jewish holocaust victims, do you think Romney would give support to Isreal?
NoMormonInWhiteHouse blogspot com
@ I am a Mormon. You show your lack of understanding of your own church. This is done to add to the genealogy work done by the church. Then for all records, those Jews who died in the name of their right to believe are listed as Christian. You are a wonderful ignorant human.
As a Jew I am very offended and what they did a truly insulting to all the Jews, dead and alive.
They need to apologize to all the Jews immediately!
If there is an afterlife, and if the dead person wants to go for Jesus in such an afterlife, then why would he or she need a baptism by proxy to do so? It's a bit ridiculous. It's his or her choice.
That being said, I doubt very many Jews would take up on the offer, unless Jesus were to come up with proof of messiahship/ godhood/ whatever (and even then they'd be skeptical) – even in an afterlife. No wonder we Jews get offended by proxy baptisms.
Whatever your intentions, it feels very offensive to Jews. It is like spitting on our ancestors grave. You are telling us that our religion is so horrible that we will burn in h*ll for not believing what you believe and that our ancestors who were killed for being Jewish are in h*ll and somehow need your help. What if someone of another faith did the same to you? Would you want your ancestors baptized Muslim by proxy? would you like their names added to a great big Muslim database?
we do not need, want or accept JC. He ain't our g-d; he was jewish and a human being, just like us. LEAVE US ALONE.
You are taught to not question. You too can do research on line. So glad the Mormon Church apologised to Jews for Baptizing their dead. Now how do I get that same consideration? Speaking of apologies, if Romney wins Republican nomination it would be interesting if Obama asked Mitt how he explained his support for the black mans Mormon ‘Mark-of -Cain’ when he was on his LDS mission. Google ‘Mark of Cain’. Its high time the LDS church and Mitt apologised for that racism.
Mormons are just jealous of Jews, and want to try and be close to them.
Kenneth, since Mormons believe they are the TRUE extension of the original 12 Tribes, makes sense that baptizing Jews and corralling them into the Celestial Kingdom would be extremely important to them.
Just another case of Jew envy.
If you want to feel close to a Jew, chop that foreskin off !
Arrogance! Pure arrogance! They will drive more people AWAY from their "religion" with this type of disrespect for others. GOOD! It's all about a total lack of tolerance. Just another cult as far as I can see.
In fact the church has made every effort to ensure they are not offending the Jewish people. They have worked with Jewish leaders, changed their system to ensure that these actions are halted, and are not disciplining members who go against church policy. What more could you possibly expect them to do?
Some people think our Church is not Christian but the reason "Mormons" do baptisms for the dead is Jesus' teaching, "Except a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) and the practice of baptism for the dead by the early Christians (1 Corinthians 15:29). Do you consider that we don't know the religious preferences of 95% of the people who have died. There are only a few that left records of their religious preferences, and even for those who were committed to a specific religion, I believe that after we die we will all have much greater knowledge of religious truth. Some of those people may want to accept the ordinance of baptism that has been performed for them, without which Jesus said they cannot enter the kingdom of God. Please understand it is not a matter of disrespect or intentional disregard for their feelings.
The bible does not condone the act, in fact Paul speaks against the practice. not biblical. The christians who were doing this, were told to stop.
Tom it is all about disrespect, blatant disrespect which the LDS church has a very long history of. You can try to rationalize all you want, but it does not change a thing.
I highly doubt you 'respect' Judaism. I highly doubt you know much of anything about Judaism–what Jews believe, what practices Jews keep, how we live our lives, etc. Yet without knowing this you 'know' that we are going to hell for not believing what you believe. Of course that's disrespectful. you are treating us as though we are little, ignorant children and you know better but in fact you don't know Judaism and are not in a position to judge. Well, it goes both ways. I don't respect this aspect of Mormonism.
3/4 of the Pauline epistles are not supported by Jesus in the four gospels. Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John is proxy baptism mentioned or even hinted at.
Paul invented quite a lot of "Christianity" just like the first 300 years of Christianity was morphed by Bishops arguing theology, and not reading the four gospels.
There is NO biblical basis for proxy baptism.
NoMormonInWhiteHouse blogspot com
@Beth Well said.
Mormons are suppose to only do baptisms for the dead for their own ancestors. I don't know why someone is breaking that rule and doing it for famous Jews, but people shouldn't worry that it will be done for you. Its not like they are trying to insult everyone, they just want to unite their families, and they believe baptism is necessary to be together forever.
Clarity, Mormons have been baptizing dead people outside their families from the beginning. It's not something every Mormon is comfortable with, so they do their direct descendents and don't even know about the non-descendent baptisms.
My real beef with the LDS is the absolute dependence of women upon men for their salvation, glory, morality, position in the Celestial Kingdom, everything. It's mandated in the Book of Mormon. No wonder Utah has the highest use of psychopharma drugs by women in the country. The load they carry, and can't complain about or else their husband won't let them into heaven, is enormous.
Mormon OCD – names, we need more names, need to baptize names, more names, any names
Disgusting, and NOT a quality for a President.
NoMormonInWhiteHouse blogspot com
Only for the newbies:
Putting the final kibosh on religion to include Mormonism in less than 1500 words.
• There was probably no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• There was probably no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
A quick Google, Bing or Yahoo search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.
"The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.
Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother's womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. "
Reality: One of better collections of nonsense crap on the 'Net. Bet the author tips in at 300 pounds, is divorced, drinks or tokes heavily and has not worked in public for years. This is it's best defense. Otherwise, it shouldn't leave the trailer or basement flat as there are people of religion not tolerate to bigots and racists like the obese one. May you suffer long and slowly in this life and roast more than you ever fathomed when you do stop using oxygen here.
Only for the those interested in a religious update:------->>>
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
“New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".
Current RCC problems:
Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.
4. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.
5. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.
Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!
The "relgious" should only cause as much misery as the atheists do. RIP "Hitch."
After reading some of the earlier comments, it appears as though the Mormons have set up a team of specialists counteracting most of the negative remarks. And I wouldn't be surprise if they were instructed to do so. So long suckers.
Ah – but they can't erase the truth.
They've a history of insti'tutionalized racism that only stopped when they realized they couldn't make money from their temples in "cursed" countries unless they eased off on the white=good stand point. 1978 was the year of that "divine revelation" and, coincidentally, the same year they opened a temple in an area that wasn't lily-white.
The divine revelation repealing polygamy only came about after Brigham Young was jailed and teh US Confederacy said they'd be denied statehood if they kept up with it.
They demand a 10% ti/the from all members – and in fact have an auditing session each year wherein they have to PROVE they paid it, or else no Temple Blessing/Secret Name/Secret Handshake/Celestial Kingdom.
They spent $750 million on charity since 1984 and $3 Billion on a mall in less than 10 years.
Brigham Young was already dead when polygamy ended. When rambling about a topic you claim to be an expert on, try avoiding blatant demonstrations of ignorance.
1847 – Mormon settlers arrive in Utah (including Brigham Young)
1850 – Utah application for statehood declined
1856 – 2nd application for statehood declined due to the LDS admitting to practicing "twin relics of barbarism," slavery and polygamy
1857 – President Madison sends troops to quell the rebellion in Utah amidst accusations of polygamy and other immorality. Mountain Meadow Massacre
1858 – Young deposed as governor
1862 – 3rd appliation for statehood denied. US Congress in the process of prohibiting plural marriage by federal statute.
1871 – Young tried for polygamy
1877 – Young tried for his part in the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Dies the same year.
1879 – US congress upholds Morill law that bans polygamy
1882 – Application for statehood denied as Utah failed to meet requirement of "a republican form of government"
1880-89 – Various federal laws passed imposing penalties for polygamy. Ban of Polygamy an official requirement for entry into the Union.
1890 – "Divine Revelation" comes to Mormon prophet Willford Woodruff in which he states that "my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriages forbidden by the law of the land."
1896 – Application for statehood accepted
Very interesting historically. Thanks Doc
Historically, leaders of the LDS will say whatever they need to say to the secular authorities to make them go away, then just keep doing what they were doing. This article is a good example of that.
Brighan Young himself sent units of Mormons out to kill the US Army troops who were coming to depose him as governor of Utah
Of course that is nonsense. But Brigham Young did send a few hundred men to serve in the Mormon Battalion at the request of the US Government to fight in the Mexican American war.
Actually there was no apology made to any secular authority. The apology was given to the Jews who took offense to the proxy baptisms made on behalf of their deceased family members, and when you're talking about an organization that has over 100 temples throughout the world and all the names of the deceased that are submitted to each temple, it doesn't seem unfeasable to have some glitches in system and something does slip through the cracks.
Doc, you do realize that were no actual battles faught between the Saints and the U.S. Army during the Utah War in 1857. Not that there couldn't have been any battles fought, but there weren't any even when the U.S. troops marched into Salt Lake City.
Ever hear of the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
The only reason Young wasn't found guilty was because he found a scapegoat willing to martyr himself.
Baptizing dead people? Can these churches get any sicker? Oh yeah they can. I am not an atheist either, just fed up with the corruption in ALL churches and religions. I choose to stand alone in God's presence.
Prayer changes things .
"...then did Tilius say to the people of the low plains: seek not the wickedness amongst your neighbors, lest it find purchase in your own house."
"Hallowed are the children of the Ori."
No need to seek evil, you post it Prior.
Atheists and Religious in this issue are like the TV show of the 80's ti.tled "The A-Team. People are firing high-powered guns on their faces but hit only the background settings.
Waste of bullets.
If only atheists could practice a lil bit of liberalism to let alone this matter between Mormons and Jews, really does make sense.
@does make sense
@Does make sense
Atheists are only part of the criticisms the LDS is receiving on this matter. Read the other comments the strongest objections have been from Christians. Also Jews are not the only ones being baptized against their will.
@ThinkAgain – You are exactly right. I am a Baptist, and I am totally disgusted with this. Mormons take an act of obedience that is singular to that persons declaration of faith in Jesus Christ and just distort it. I have no problems talking to Atheists about their "nonbeliefs" or "beliefs", but I have a big problem with Mormons because they use the name of Jesus and they use the name of Christianity and distort our beliefs. They don't even tell their own people everything about their ceremonies until you reach a certain level in their ministry. This one use to be kept secret. Don't be Baptized for me, I did it years ago.
Thank you for your support. I too am open to speaking those with other beliefs (I’m dating one in fact) I would point out though that the argument could easily be made that Christianity is just a distorted version of Judaism. They took and older religion and made their own version of it, just as the Muslims did after that.
Side note: Of the three Abrahamic religions only one considers Christ to be divine. The early church also believed this…it wasn’t until much later that view changed.
@ThinkAgain I understand your statement. But, that depends on what you mean by "the early church". First, when you say the word "Christ" you are talking about the "anointed one", the Messiah. Yes, Jesus was the fulfilment of the of the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament (the Jewish part). After he had risen from the dead there was no doubt what the disciples taught – even doubting Thomas fell before him and said, "My Lord and my God." John 20:28,29
When I reference the early Church I do so literally. In short (I have to go, but will check again tomorrow) there is no evidence Christ ever existed and is in fact mostly like an amalgamation of several older religious archetypes. The bible is also not considered a legitimate source of accurate information. It is the world’s longest game of telephone.
Take care for now.
@Think Again Please do your own research and quit listening to what these Christian deniers tell you. To say Jesus never existed is just foolish and ignorant. This seems to be a new theme with liberals – just deny he didn't exist, don't do any research for yourself, and then tell them to prove it. As one man said, If you research it, I bet you find more evidence in history that Jesus was real than George Washington was our first President.
Woops sorry meant "deny he existed"
I’ve done extensive research on the subject. It’s a bit of a hobby.
> Jesus never existed is just foolish and ignorant
This is not true at all. Blindingly believe without evidence is foolish and ignorant. I base my observation of the evidence.
> This seems to be a new theme with liberals
I am not a liberal. You assume much.
I do not deny the possibility that Jesus existed. (again I go by the facts) In fact it’s very possible that a MAN did exist who claimed to be the son of “god”. (his name wasn’t Jesus btw. Look it up.) Who through rumor and WANT of others became this mythical character. You see this throughout history. Early leaders were thought to be of divine decent or gods themselves. In modern times we also have men who claim to be the son of god. Your fellow Christians simply laugh at them (rightfully so it would seem) And no the miracles in the bible are not evidence as we have already established the bible is not reliable (in fact it’s very contradictive) Even today we have people that claim to do miracles around the world and a always found the be frauds. Do you believe in UFOs, Big Foot or Loch Ness monster? All these were supposedly witnessed and have more physical evidence than there is of Jesus or that he was divine. Regarding your last statement…you lost that bet.
So I have already done what you ask and in turn ask you to do the same and please leave the bigotry toward liberals behind, I doubt your Jesus would approve.
@Cbinal and Think Again
And you were turning my post into a chatroom with your PURE NONSENSE?!
How dare (the two of) you!
You’re welcome to join. As you pointed out you started this with your PURE NONSENSE. = )
And you think that would give you a free ticket to spew your own PURE NONSENSE just because you think that I started it likewise? Ah, okay go ahead. BRING IT ON, BABY!
@ My favorite for the day and maybe for years or lifetime
Who are you responding to?
@Think Again – Sorry that you are so bad at research. Otherwise you would have found at least 2 Jesus' that had followings as Messiah. And, as you said his name wasn't Jesus, which would you prefer Yeshua? Joshua? Emmanuel? all the same names with the same meaning. And please give me one of these contradictions from the Bible – I have heard about them for years, but in over 25 years of studying the Bible I have yet to find one. I don't have any problem with Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster, remember I'm one of those people that think dinosaurs and man walked together. As far as UFOs, no problem there either, I've seen stuff I couldn't identify, doesn't mean there are little green men in them, might be a new military weapon that I might just be working on that you know nothing about.
Untill the leaders of the LDS investigate, prosecute and excommunicate the subhuman thugs who did this, (and not for the first time, I understand) their apology means nothing.
Just as the most saintly person is still a human, no one is subhuman, no matter how 'evil'.
That’s not what the religion of peace is saying over the burnt Qur’ans.
They won't. They'll make a big show of supposedly punishing, and as soon as it's off the front page, they'll go right back to it.
The only way to stop it is to stop ALL posthumous baptisms, and the LDS church simply won't do that. Which is a shame, because the practice is appalling and disrespectful to the dead.
I don't mind proxy baptisms as much as most Jews seem to, basically because they're actions by a third party in the dark who don't really know what they're doing. If they consider it an honor, it's an honor. But many interpret it as an insult. So, many are offended. But since it's some third party doing some ritual in the middle of nowhere, why get bothered about it?