March 13th, 2012
10:08 PM ET
Terminated employee claims bias against intelligent design
By Stan Wilson, CNN
Los Angeles (CNN) - A former veteran systems administrator for NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory claimed during opening arguments in a civil lawsuit Tuesday that he was wrongfully terminated for expressing his views on intelligent design.
David Coppedge, who spent 15 years on the Cassini Mission, one of NASA and JPL's most ambitious planetary space explorations, asserts that he was unlawfully fired under his employer's anti-harassment and ethics policies. JPL contends Coppedge created a hostile workplace while expressing his religious views with co-workers.
His suit also claims that supervisors wrongly admonished him for distributing DVD documentary films titled "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" and "The Privileged Planet," which present biological and cosmological explanations for intelligent design, according to the complaint.
Coppedge claims he never forcibly compelled colleagues to accept his idea of intelligent design in the workplace. Intelligent design is a conviction that life is too complex to have developed solely through evolution and that the universe was designed by an intelligent entity.
CNN's Belief Blog – all the faith angles to the day's top stories
JPL, based in Pasadena, California, is one of the world's most prestigious institutions for scientific research and development institutions. In Coppedge's civil lawsuit, he describes JPL's space missions as designed, in part, to explore the origin of the universe, uncover whether life exists elsewhere in the universe - or is improbably confined to earth - and whether conditions necessary for life to exist reside elsewhere in the universe.
Launched in October 1997, the Cassini mission to Saturn included a sophisticated robotic spacecraft that orbited the ringed planet and provided streams of data about its rings, magnetosphere, moon Titan and icy satellites. Cassini was the largest interplanetary mission ever launched, with the largest technical staff and participation of 18 countries.
In his role, Coppedge was responsible for making technical and scientific recommendations to management and developing presentations about various technical capabilities of new systems and upgrades, his attorney William Becker Jr. said during opening arguments. During his tenure, Coppedge developed a "sincere interest in the scientific evidence behind life's origin," which led to his conviction about "intelligent design."
Coppedge shared the view that life and the existence of the universe derived not from "undirected material processes," but from "intelligent cause," said attorney Becker.
In March 2009, Coppedge claims that his supervisor advised him that co-workers had complained that he was harassing them over debates about his religious views and coercing them in the workplace into watching DVD programs about intelligent design. During his opening statements Tuesday, attorney Becker Jr. told a judge hearing the case that Coppedge's supervisor threatened him with termination if he "pushed his religion" and ordered Coppedge to refrain from discussing politics or religion with anyone in the office.
During that 2009 meeting, Coppedge alleges, his supervisor became angry and belligerent asserting that "intelligent design is religion" and ordered him to stop. "The tone of the meeting and conduct were abusive and constituted harassment," his attorney said in court.
JPL spokeswoman Veronica McGregor said the lawsuit "is completely without merit, and we intend to vigorously fight the allegations raised by Mr. Coppedge."
In their response to the civil suit, attorneys for JPL stated in court documents that one of Coppedge's co-workers complained to his supervisor that Coppedge made her feel so uncomfortable in discussing "non work related topics" that it bordered on harassment. The supervisor encouraged Coppedge to limit his discussions about topics like religion and politics to periods like lunch breaks, according to the response.
The documents state that other co-workers complained they also felt harassed when Coppedge expressed views in favor of California Proposition 8, the ballot initiative in 2010 that defined marriage between and man and woman.
"David Coppedge alienated his co-workers by the way he acted with them, and blamed anyone who complained about those interactions," according to JPL in their response. "He accuses his former project supervisor and line manager of making discriminatory and retaliatory employment decision, when they had in fact protected him for years."
JPL alleged that Coppedge "was seen as stubborn, unwilling to listen and always having to do things his way, which frustrated project members and resulted in errors."
Coppedge was demoted after eight years as lead systems administrator and terminated last year. He cited those actions as a factor in basis for his suit claiming religious discrimination, retaliation, harassment and wrongful demotion.
JPL has denied Coppedge's termination complaint, contending he was among 246 employees laid off as part of a downsizing plan that affected 300 staffers.
"JPL complies with all applicable state and federal employment laws including laws governing freedom of expression," said JPL spokeswoman McGregor.
California Institute of Technology operates JPL, which is federally funded under a contract with NASA. Scientists are employed by the Caltech.
The case has generated interest among advocates of intelligent design. The Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian civil rights group, and the Discovery Institute, a proponent of intelligent design, are supporting Coppedge's lawsuit. The National Center for Science Education, which supports the teaching of evolution in public education, is closely monitoring the case.
Coppedge is seeking damages for wrongful termination, including attorney fees. The nonjury trial is expected to last four weeks.
*An earlier headline for this article identified David Coppedge as a scientist. His attorney later said that despite his technical work with computers, he is not a scientist.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
I don't know any atheist that claims they know everything, including how everything began.
Tell me, do YOU know how everything began?
atheists only "know" what the evidence points to. the evidence points to an expanding universe, thus the big bang. we go by evidence.
and it's the religious that claim to have divine knowledge of everything and can never change their answer. science changes its answer all the time. as new information comes in, science constantly adjusts. something religion never does.
No but I know the being that does. I am humble enough to know that some things are beyond my ability to comprehend. Atheist on the other hand are arrogant in their stance of "knowing" how the universe wasn't created even though they really don't understand how it WAS created. If you don't know, then admit it and leave open the possibility that God did it. An atheist's need to attack the notion that God created everything even though they don't know how it WAS created illustrates that they are in fact searching for God. I pray that you find Him.
Somebody once said "Nobody talks as much about God as those that claim not to believe in Him".
I agree with scientific findings that can be proven. Even if the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution are spot on....that still doesn't disprove the existence of God.
So what if goldfish become smart enough to figure out that someone bought a fish tank and put them in it. Their new found knowledge doesn't mean the person that bought the fish tank doesn't exist.
STL broker. You suffer the glow of humility as do many bible thumpers
I have no problem at all with considering that God created the universe, IF someone, anyone, can provide convincing evidence of it. So far I have seen none.
Do I lean towards science? Yes. Why? Because science uses evidence and methods to best explain things instead of telling me I just need to believe that their book is true.
maybe because no one is as abused by the religious as those who aren't members of the cult...?
and look what you said. you "know" the being that does. you say atheists aren't open minded? all we require is proof of his existence. show us evidence and the argument is done. but of course you have no evidence. what about you, mr christian? what would it take to show you there is no god? and you can't prove that my right testicle is god, so does that my ballsack god? by your reasoning it does.
gager- You also are very humble....with much to be humble about.
"I agree with scientific findings that can be proven. Even if the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution are spot on....that still doesn't disprove the existence of God."
I agree with that 100%. And even if I agree not to believe in the Big Bang or Evolution, I still have not seen any convincing proof OF God.
Bootyfunk- Which is it? Is your testicle or ballsack God?
I "know" God like I "know" my mother. The fact that you don't know my mother doesn't mean that my mother doesn't exist.
The solution is for you to get to "know" God too and maybe my mother if you get to know God first. He IS there and He WILL hear you if you ask Him to make himself known to you in a humble and sincere way. Then after you get to know him and are blessed abundantly and filled with joy....you can come back on here and thank me. You are welcome in advance.
i don't know which, since you know god, maybe you can take a look and tell me.
you have powerfully inadequate arguments. your mother example is terrible. i may not know your mom exists, but i could meet her and touch her and talk with her. i could show her to everyone in the world - and no one would argue about whether she exists or not. show me god. let me touch god or have a conversation with him (and i don't just mean the imaginary kind like you have). see the difference? your example is weak.
i tried to "know" god. when i was a southern baptist. didn't work. he's not there, doesn't exist. you think you will feel empty as an atheist, but you will actually feel more fulfilled. to look at the world in an adult way, to banish all the childish fairy tales and instead look to truth. if atheists worship anything,it's the truth. which is best revealed by science.
I keep seeing you giving the reason of "that doesn't mean he doesn't exist". That is true, it doesn't mean he doesn't, but also does not mean he does.
Please, what evidence is there that he DOES exist.
Yes, close your eyes real tight, click your heels together and say, "There's no place like home" several times. You'll thank me when you wake up.
Bootyfunk- Okay well that is what I meant by "know". Obviously I can't physically produce God as He only manifested himself as flesh once and that was awhile ago. It takes faith to believe in what you can't see. Thomas was able to put his finger in Jesus's wounds but Jesus said "You believe because you have seen. Blessed is he that believes without seeing".
Don't know what else to tell you. It saddens me to hear that at one point you put your hands to the plow and then not only looked back but left the plow sitting in the middle of the field and a good portion of the field unplowed. You started building a tower but didn't count the costs before you did, leaving a half built tower.
The good news is, the field and the tower are still there and they still need to be plowed and built. I just said a prayer that you will do so.
Were you faced with a decision to accept or reject God?
I have never met a single person that has not responded to that question my whole life. I ask every class yet, never one.
Since Neanderthal all recorded history shows man answering that question.
Must be a matter of life or death.
"Obviously I can't physically produce God as He only manifested himself as flesh once and that was awhile ago. It takes faith to believe in what you can't see."
Is there anything else you believe in on faith alone?
fred- Actually it is a matter of "life and life". We will all live forever, it is just a matter of where.
YeahOk- Nope, just God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
What are the ramifications of me being wrong? I make certain choices in life and end up worm food like everyone else.
What are the ramifications of you being wrong? You make certain choices in life and potentially (God's decision not mine) end up spending eternity is a very unpleasant place or simply ceasing to exist as some would argue but I subscribe to the former.
Ramifications of me being right? Potentially (God will decide) spending eternity in paradise.
Ramifications of you being right?" Nothing. The dead don't brag and don't get any sort of reward.
"Were you faced with a decision to accept or reject God?"
I have throughout my life been asked whether or not I would accept God or not. My answer now stands as it always has; no. I will not accept ANYTHING on pure faith alone.
YeahOk- Well perhaps after one's death God's shows himself to all and allows everyone to answer that question at that point. In which case, I have every confidence that you will give the right answer. But I don't make the rules, He does, so you will just have to wait and see.
Best of luck to you!
Seems to me you are putting all your eggs in the Christianity basket.
How did you choose Christianity? What if Islam, Judaism, or some other religion is the right religion? Why not follow those as well just to be sure you're not wrong?
Notice how clear you were on rejecting God as were those who mocked Jesus on the cross. It is never that someone with intellectual capacity such as yours has not responded to that basic question. I am sure you have a good explanation as to why since Neanderthal every man was put into a position to respond to that basic question.
Your response that you will only accept God on your terms pretty well sums up who you really are relative to God. It is God that must answer to you.
One of the key revelations of God regardless of religious denomination is that false PRIDE is a negative trait which carries consequence to self or others. The Hebrew Bible puts pride as the central source of separation between God and man. It even was the source of Lucifer being thrown down to earth after once being the greatest and most beautiful of all angelic creations.
All religions could be wrong on this point but the truth of God never changes. The truth of God is hard to miss
You are not seriously trying to convince me that every man from the beginning of time has been asked whether or not they will accept YOUR God are you? If you have proof otherwise, please provide.
"The truth of God is hard to miss"
Please, tell me what "hard to miss" evidence I am missing.
God has revealed himself to man in different ways as man was able to comprehend God. Not sure who Neanderthal worshiped but they buried stuff with their loved ones. Then we have God being in the lightning, volcano or earthquake. Much later the God of Abraham then Jesus revealed in person the most important attributes of God. Each culture was given what was needed to make the decision. I assume you made your decision based on a western Christian world view. Yes, every man has been asked or asked the question. Hindu and you too.
Evidence? You be the judge. I personally experienced a conversion and became a believer several years ago. I followed exactly the pathway specified by Jesus in the New Testament. I bring with me 172 witnesses that also experienced the same conversion on separate subsequent events and I can attest to their changed lives and new found ability to see the hand of God which they previously rejected. Hundreds of millions of believers have personally witnessed the same conversion throughout the world according to reliable sources. We also have the account of Saul of Tarsus now called Paul who has written about his and other conversions in his many letters which are authenticated.
How did he reveal himself to YOU?
I had helped out lost man, got him some cloths and a plane ticket. He gave me his Bible which I tried to refuse. After he got out of my car I tossed the Bible in the back. Many times I went to throw it in the trash when cleaning the car out and something stopped me each time. One day after losing just about everything I thought important that Bible caught my eye. It was bent open to some pages where I last tossed it that had red font. Curious I started reading what was in red and was convicted of guilt and sin. Reading further it said ask Jesus to forgive you and help you out. Turned out that was what is called the red letter addition where Jesus words are in red. I could not put that book down. What was once garbage opened up and revealed who Jesus was and a side of life I never knew existed. I was born again, actually knew that God loved me and as they say I experienced the Living God. I was a completely different person than before. My atheist friends dumped me like a hot potato (I must admit I was obnoxious) and I could not stop talking about Jesus.
What happened was a “miracle”.
Interesting note I gave that Bible to another lost sole and when she became born again I gave myself a big pat on the back. I told her I just knew she needed that Bible and her reply was fred you were the 5th person to given me a Bible that day! That confirmed that God will reveal himself as God chooses not as man chooses.
You know, there are millions of people who have had bad times in their life (I'd dare say most people), and then things became better, and maybe they became a better person. Some people will claim the Koran did it for them. Nobody's story is the same. And while we're at it, there are millions who had good lives, and then things fell apart, and that includes devote Christians; did your God give up on them?
My life was once much more difficult, and I wasn't the happy, comfortable, and respected person I am now, and I managed to get that way without religion, as millions of others have.
Maybe what you read in the bible helped steer you towards a better life, and a being better person, and hey, that's great, congrats, whatever works. However, for ME, that doesn't count as proof of your God, or any other god.
As a little note about myself. I'm a guitarist who has played well over 30 years now. And in that time, I actually played guitar in TWO "Christian" bands. I say "Christian" in quotes because there was an agreement that if I played in the band, with all other members being Christians themselves, that the songs would not mention God or Jesus, or preach the word of God, but would be songs that would be positive songs that promote love and goodwill towards others.
I spent 8 years in Catholic school growing up; I was an alter boy, and played guitar and bass in church. I have many friends that have strong Christian belief and have total respect for each other. I've read bible, more than once, and even recently; it's on my Kindle. When I read the bible however, it actually makes me believe even less.
It's not like your God hasn't been given the chance to reveal himself to me, and it's not like I have never asked. If he's going to do so, he better hurry up.
What would you like God to do for you or what kind of a sign are you looking for?
I need to run but will check back in 4 hours
Not sure how to answer that. You're probably asking what would be the minimum proof I would need, because I could probably think of millions of things that would be so blatant that nobody could deny. If he were to make a talking elephant suddenly appear in my living room right now and tell me that yes, God exists, that might do it. However, if that did happen, I think I'd probably check myself into a psychiatric ward. So really, I don't know.
If your God is as good as you claim, he should know exactly what it would take, without making me think I've gone insane. 😉
My last post of the day. I'll probably check in tomorrow, but don't know how much time I'll have.
I will need to look at the 100 points Martin Luther nailed on the door of the Catholic Church and see if destroying the faith of future generations was one of them. I note that in the Bible God lets man reach the fullness of character before he pulls the carpet out and that character can be good or bad. Religion and many of the Churches failed to follow Christ as did many of the Christians inside. Instead of operating from the view of bringing glory to God we brought glory to ourselves and dishonored God. All the added ritual and laws by the Catholic Church and politicized evangelical for example followed the footprint of the Jewish leaders of Jesus day that brought darkness, hate and division rather than unity and love. Believers are to grow in Christ as they journey in life each one cell (or stone) in the living organism called the body of Christ (church) that in the kingdom is filled with the wonder of God. Perfect unity as it was intended. Perhaps if more of us had done this instead of building walls between people and the truth you would not have become disillusioned.
You are right in that God knows what it will take but it needs to be presented so as not to override your free will.
Here is the real problem. If he lost his job because he is a Christian and he sue his employer he needs to read his bible closer. If you lose your job because your a Christian you should count it joy to be counted among those who suffer for Christ. If you lose your job because you cant work with others with a different view than yours without constantly causing them problems you need to learn how to Love your neighbor. NO where in the bible does it say "Sue people who hurt you no matter the reason!" Read More Bible buddy, your problem is not your beliefs in intelligent design its your selective acceptance of the lessons provided by the bible.
"If you lose your job because your a Christian you should count it joy to be counted among those who suffer for Christ. "
Oh please, get some mental health help.
you are in a cult. it is called "Christianity". you should seek deprogramming so you can think like a rational adult.
I would suggest that his problems come from too much Bible, not too little.
it's a little of both, too much and too little.
they don't study the bible at all, so they don't know what it actually says. but they listen to morons called priests/preachers/ministers who say they know they bible. so it's second hand knowledge, usually cherry picked to not mention really crazy and really evil stuff. so you're right, it's too much bible in the end. but it's what they've been told, since generally christians know less about the bible than atheists.
No actual rebuking to my comment just attacks on Christianity. I agree Christianity looks bad because its weakness is actual people have to be part of it and you can always find someone screwing up any of the ideas that make it great. What i dont see is any of you coming up with anything besides cute quips about brainwashing and down with religion comments.
Even if it were the case that he were fired for his belief in ID (which I doubt), I'd be all for it. If someone thinks ID is credible, it demonstrates a willingness to suspend their adherence to the scientific method in favour of their personal and/or religious beliefs. This is NOT something we want to encourage in people shooting rockets into space.
"We don't know why the satellite isn't responding, therefore it must be because an alien intelligence is blocking the signal. We should abandon attempts to re-connect with the satellite and focus instead on telepathically contacting the aliens to negotiate a resolution."
thank you! thats why this whole story baffles my mind. It makes no logical sense what so ever for someone that believes in ID to be working for NASA, and you make a very astute point. Believing in ID means you throw out the scientific method as a whole, and there for would be viciously counter productive to working day to day at NASA.
Really? he is suing because he was proselytizing his beliefs to FREAKING NASA scientists? Really? and this is news? This has got to be a joke, Iv seen people fired for much less. You start shoving your beliefs down your co-workers throats so much that they have to complain to HR its a safe bet your going to get fired. just have to say it again...really? He was a scientist at NASA? REALLY?!
"Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments when he was merely stupid.” – Heinrich Heine (1797 – 1856)
Religion is not and will never be hostile to science. Where the bunch of u got that idea I don't know but broaden ur horizon. Religion makes science fun as it has purpose n it encourages ethical behaviour n emotional maturity which help science to flourish.
Ever heard of the dark ages?
It's not so much "hostile to" as inherently incompatible with.
Science tells us, among other things, that unfalsifiable hypotheses are void of information content and practical utility and should be discarded. It also tells us taking hings on faith is a really good way to be wrong which is why we have these extensive testing and verification and review criteria in the scientific method.
Religion is **built on** unfalsifiable hypotheses and demands that it's dogmas be taken on faith. They really don't work together.
Science is not hostile toward religion. The religious just feel that way because it keeps encroaching on what was once perceived as divine revelation. Ask Galileo who was hostile to whom.
wrong. religion is extremely hostile to science. the church is against stem cell research, for instance. that's science.
the bible gives the wrong order for the evolution of plants and animals on earth. it says that there was light before there was a sun. it says the earth is flat and has 4 corners. it says the earth is only 6k year old, off by billions of years. the bible says there are unicorns, satyrs and dragons and other fairy tale creatures.
i could go on all day on this subject. you are obviously yet another christian that has not read the bible. you claim to lead your life by this book, but don't know what it says. typical.
Religion should not be incompatible with science (don't they both seek truth?). Churches and dogmatic beliefs are often incompatible, but religion should not.
" Religion is not and will never be hostile to science. "
Tell that to Giordano Bruno.
i don't know = god did it
I think I know everything = atheist
Actually it's "I know more than they do because I took the time to do my homework on the matter = atheist"
Quite the opposite, in fact.
The Atheist is generally quite willing to admit they know little – thus the never ending question for knowledge and understanding that is science!
The theist, on the other hand, it quite smugly certain that he has all teh answers to life, the universe and everything explained neatly in a single book and reacts with hostility and derision when anyone refutes the contents of said book.
@STLBroker: As opposed to the theists who think they know the entire universe was created just so they would have somewhere to stand while an all powerful being gazes lovingly at them then grants them eternal life?
Yeah, it's clearly those arrogant atheists who think they know everything...
cute argument, but it's the religious who say they know everything. everything in my iron age book is right.
science changes constantly. that's the beauty of it. all you have to do is present proof and scientists will believe you. science says "this is what we know so far." if you can prove the sun rotates around the earth as opposed to the earth around the sun, scientists will change every textbook to reflect that new (and proven) information. does that happen with the bible? the bible that says the earth is flat... no.
christians just can't admit when they're wrong. that's the problem.
"I have philosophical commitment to materialist epistemology = atheist" ?
Most honest atheists are not atheists at all, but agnostics. In the end, atheism is a centuries-long aberration in the tens of thousands of years of human history; a drop in the bucket of potential human ideologies.
wrong Boy. atheism has nothing to do with material anything. it means one thing only = i don't believe in god. honest atheists admit there is an astronomically small chance that there is a god. it's just so small that we reasonably say there is no god. btw, the same chance exists that i am god. or my cat, or my coffee table. would you say my cat is not god? you can't prove it. but you can reasonably say he is not god. just like without ANY evidence to support it, we can reasonably say there is not god. get it?
atheism has nothing to do with ethics. it you want an atheistic ethical system, check out Humanism. i challenge you to compare Humanism and Christianity as ethical guides. name ONE thing bad about Humanism. we can name tons of passages in the "moral" bible that are absolutely heinous and horrifying. kill h_o_m_o_s_e_x_u_a_l_s come to mind. so really i challenge all christians to look up Humanism and compare the two.
Did Boy say he was religious? Or even Christian?
Post-structuralism is an interesting thing. Even materialist epistemology (and yes, this is the epistemological commitment of atheists) gets to see the chopping block 🙂
Humanism has a system of ethics. It also has a system of morality. These are not the same. But I suppose that's a moot point.
Its a matter of the heart. Most people are going to consider his views foolish and unconstructive, even though it is the truth. So it is to be expected. My recommendation is to continue to fight for what you believe in.
But make sure that what you believe in hasn't been refuted somewhere and you just didn't get the memo.
yes, even if you're in a religious cult and you think all kinds of crazy things that have no basis in reality.
what if i got a job at nasa and then told them i figured it all out - i'm god. not "a" god - "the" god. that's right, i'm god. and you can't prove that i'm not. so now let's conduct all of our "scientific" research with the caveat that i'm god. let's spend millions of dollars assuming i made the universe. do you see how ridiculous that is?
creationist try to be sneaky and call it "intelligent design", but it's really just christianity. every one of these nutjobs is a christian. it's religious wackos trying to force their dogma on academia. education is forcing religion into a dark corner and they hate it. this is their ludicrous attempt at trying to make the bible fit into the modern world. one word: fail.
I agree, except to add the words AWAY FROM THE WORKPLACE...He can go hold signs like the Westboro people and that is his right as an American. It is also the right of everyone to have a safe and non-hostile workplace. People get very very worked up about religious and political agendas. It is management's job to provide a workplace that is free of bias and safe. If they took the proper steps to inform him that he was breaking the company's rules and continued to do so, then he has only one person to blame for being fired.
So Scientologists need to continue their fight against Psychiatry because they know the real problem is what the Galactic Overlord Xenu did to do the poor Thetans.
And Christian Scientists should up the ante in their war on medicine and make everyone know that everyone can cure disease like Jesus if they study study Mary Baker Eddy's book.
Jehovah's Witnesses should keep on fighting the good fight against blood transfusions and let more kids die through ignorance.
I don't remember anything in the sermon on the mount about "blessed are the luddites for ignorance shall grant them passage into heaven".
This guy was endorsing, or you can even say "selling" a product not related to the business they were all employed to work for. How is this any different that someone trying to sign his co-workers up on Amway, or something like that, during work hours?
Sounds to me like he was force-feeding his beliefs on his co-workers, and when enough people complained of harrassment, they fired him. Nothing wrong with sharing your opinion, but distributing religious flyers/media is not a practice that belongs in a diverse workplace. K.
How can you have an Intelligent Design "Scientist".......perfect example of an oxymoron.
System Administrator is not exactly a scientist....
Simple, Bob. God created everything and scientist are trying to figure out how he did it. You are an oxymoron minus the oxy if you can't understand that.
I wonder what that makes you then - you, who doesn't even know that the plural of 'scientist' is 'scientists'?!
(what IS it with folks who don't know this simple pluralization of the -st words - it is rampant ignorance!)
Webster, trully a small minded person will focus in on a simple typo when they have nothing else to offer. Typos don't make people stupid, pointing out typos due to a lack of anything inelligent to say, makes people stupid.
I'm on my lunch break and have limited time, jack hole.
This is for STLBroker...typical response from the "believers". If we all subscribed to your "theory", then the Catholic Church would still be keeping us in the Dark Ages. Since you can't prove there is a God or test whether He exists, then it is not science. A scientist can believe in God, but cannot prove it. Most highly educated people who understand quantum physics and it's related fields realize that humans might not ever be able to understand everything, including the origins of the Universe, but it is human nature to look for it and to try to understand as much as we can about the universe and how everything interacts. There are many, many people who are comfortable with accepting what they are told as fact. That is the purpose of religion, to answer things we don't understand with myths that cannot be tested or repeated and rely on people having the faith in the people who tell them these myths are not lying to them. Now that science has advanced to the point where a lot of religious myths have been refuted, it conflicts with religious beliefs and that is upsetting to many who would rather have a comfortable explanation, like "it was God's will".
Wow- I don't have a problem with science at all. We should be turning over stones and discovering how the universe that God created works.
Wouldn't ID be the science trying to figure out how God did it? What he was doing before he did it? Where he came from before the universe was made, and so on? What has ID actually discovered?
The Big Bang Theory tries to explain how our current universe came about, but there are many holes in it and it is decades old. Scientists ahve moved past many of Einsteins theories as we learn more about the universe and there are new theories that try to explain newer models because we are discovering new things that Einstein couldn't have imagined, which requires new answers. As human's knowledge increases, we come up with more and more questions. As we answer those questions, we are coming closer to explaining our own universe. Maybe along the way, we will answer the questions about God or some sort of other dimension that explains the stories our ancestors came up with about "God". Until then, I will believe in science.
If God created something from nothing, then both something and nothing would be apart of him. The problem is that something and nothing are total opposites. Like good and evil. Nothing is associated with no movement, something is associated with movement and to be both would be like saying that truth and lies are the same. If God created something from nothing, he would not be a jealous God because he could easily turn something back into nothing. The point here is that no scripture in the Bible specifically states that God created something from nothing. Science is promoting it and the church is beginning to accept it.
Finite Universe – zero and one are equal (matter can be infinitely divided into nothing – God is Nothing that created everything out of emptiness) "At the Planck distance and the Planck time all physics, as we know it today collapses. This is the reason we call the beginning of the big bang a singularity. You cannot apply ordinary reasoning there. Zero and one have no sense there.OK?" There should be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the Big Bang views one and zero as being equal, since it states that zero appeared out of the absence of zero; then zero created something. Many scientists believe or have faith that light does not have mass, thus they believe the Universe is Finite. Religion promotes the most commonly accepted idea of the group. If light does not have mass, then it would be impossible to move an electron. Light described as a particle means nothing, if it has no mass since it would be impossible to distinguish from nothing because no mass means void of substance. If it has no substance, then nothing is present to distinguish the particle from other particles.
The Big Bang theory prevents any condition where something has always been. Infinity is defined as the difference between one and zero. Once one and zero are the same according to the big bang, the definition of infinity as stated above is no longer valid. If the big bang occurred, all math's must deal with the proof of 0=1.
Infinite Universe – zero is not equal to one (there is a point where matter can't be divided – God is Something that can neither be created nor destroyed that is dependent on nothing.) An infinite universe lacks a beginning, so there is no one set past or a given future. The infinite Universe supports the view that all particles considered to be energy have mass or substance; that there is one fundamental particle which accounts for all the diverse forms of matter in the Universe. It is the ultimate example of team work, since it fundamentally has no reason to destroy itself. So, why does evil exist? Free will and without freewill, God would lack choice. Balance is the nature of perfection in the Infinite Universe. In an infinite Universe the total amount of something remains constant. When an atom is divided it no longer has the characteristics of the original element. There is a point where matter can't be divided and at this point something and nothing are distinctly defined. In the infinite Universe, the term infinite is used to describe the difference between something (1) and nothing (0). There is an infinite difference between zero and one.
"no scripture in the Bible specifically states that God created something from nothing"
So true! Unless you include the Book of Genesis in the Bible, which of course nobody does anymore.
"The Big Bang theory prevents any condition where something has always been."
Not if time itself began with the Big Bang, which is what science suspects. If time has a beginning, then there was no "before the Big Bang." An intelligent designer, however, requires a time before creating the universe in order to operate.
The Big Bang Theory doesn't disprove God. God transcends the MEST universe (matter, enery, space and time). Therefore He CAN and DID exist prior to our universe coming into existence. By the way, just because our universe may have started with a Big Bang doesn't necessarily mean that was the beginning of everything. Ever hear of the "multiverse" theory. If true, there may have been, hundreds, thousands or even a million plus universes before ours existed. And YES, God existed before any of them did. Your limited thinking is like a gold fish thinking that nothing existed before someone bought a fish tank and put you in it.
Your faith is a strong one STLBroker...We are all grateful you didn't go to the dark side.
“god transcends the MEST universe” is just another way of saying god did it. Do you have anything to back that claim up?
"Do you have anything to back that claim up?"
You mean besides the Bible? No.
"God transcends the MEST universe (matter, enery, space and time)."
Let's test how limited your thinking is, eh?
How would God know that nothing existed before him? He may think that he's omni-everything, but how can he be sure? Just because he creates everything that he knows doesn't automatically mean that nothing exists outside of him and what he has made.
If you make God the "box" then try thinking outside of that box.
Why is this guy not publishing his scientific findings about "intelligent design" in a peer reviewed journal so scientists can validate his findings? What is he afraid of? Either he's right or he's wrong. If he's right, other people will be able to confirm that his findings are legitimate and that he's right. Think of how thrilling that'll be for everyone. I don't have any hangups about it. If this guy has scientific evidence of intelligent design that can be validated by other scientists, that would be really exciting. Why is he holding back and not publishing the data in scientific journals?
Because it's impossible to test the claim that "poof! magic happened!". Any test result that said it didn't gets hand waved away by appeal to magic.
Here is ID in a nutshell: "Evolution... BECAUSE GOD!"
There is no possible way to test that nonsense. Nor is it of any practical utility. ID people know they can't test it and that it's worthless they just don't care because ID isn't about science, it's about religious evangelism..
Because they don't have any "findings." What they have is an ancient idea that some god created the universe and, even then, they don't entertain any ideas about gods other than God being that intelligent designer.
HA! Nice comment. I agree completely. Of course I am admittedly biased to assume why he doesn't publish his "findings" but it would be a MAJOR scientific coup. Imagine, for a moment, if multiple scientific labs began publishing the results of experimental data showing there was an intelligence in existence capable of driving a vast cosmic power and that it was currently manipulating the cosmos to suit its whim. That results finding would make all other scientific findings (including the discovery of fire) pale in comparison. So I say to all the ID folks...bring it. Start publishing your findings in scientific peer reviewed journals. See how far it gets you...
If they could prove their case they would have done it long ago. As science came into its own it would have tested the Biblical claim and found it sound_ if the proof were there, but it isn't.
If Catholic Hospitals don't have to provide birth control health care to their employees, then JPL (the Jet PROPULSION LABORATORY for cryin' out loud ! ! !) should not have to receive lectures about (un)intelligent design from their employees.
Religious fanatics can't have it both ways.
Especially at a tax payer run institution.
Proselytism has no place in a professional work environment. Keep your religion to yourself.
Don't think anyone would complain if a pilot who did not believe in gravity was fired.
If he could take off, fly and land safely, then it would be wrong to fire him.
Still, he may cause his passengers a bit of anxiety if he comments during his pre-takeoff announcement that they'll arrive on time at their destination as long as the angels carrying the plane don't get too tired. 🙂
I would feel calmed and reassured to hear that there were angels carrying the plane.
But, like I said, what if they got tired, or slippery-fingered? Ooops!
There are no intelligent design textbooks for high school nor college. There are all kind of "videos", brochures, "Kansas parents designed curriculum", "textbook stickers", etc. Not a single textbook. Even Cincinnati Creation Museum bookstore does not have any. They do not exist. One can put together a Sunday school brochure, but school/college level textbook is a completely different story.
It'd be a one-word textbook – goddidit! What a waste of book-binding materials...
The textbooks in Texas (which drives many other states' printings) does have alternative theories to accepted science.
I had an interesting thought on this. Perhaps his co-workers felt harassed because they felt that THEIR religion was being challenged? The religion of science that is. The religion of thinking that they know exactly the truth of the universe through limited observation and hypothesis, where you really kinda do need some faith in the systems you are descrining. Take dark energy for instance.. its a theory, and a wild one at that to describe observable phenomena.. but its pretty much a guess, something you have to take on faith in your beliefs in how the world works. See where Im going with this?
Go back and take a 2nd grade science class. Your willful ignorance is astounding. I bet you voted for Santorum.
Yes, I see where you're going with this . . . nowhere !
All beliefs in science are provisional.
All beliefs in religion are absolute.
Michael, I saw where you were going. Atheists will always be blinded by their pride and stubbornness. They never seem to realize the amount of faith they put in their science of the day to bridge the gaps between absolute facts and nice sounding theories is very similar to the faith religious people use to fill in their gaps in empirical evidence. Science is great, but we don't know everything yet. Plus, where do people get this idea that science and intelligent design are like oil and water? I have yet to see a single scientific FACT that disproves any of it.
Science isn't a religion, it's a reliable way of discovering how the universe works. People who cast doubts on science are also casting doubts on the effectiveness of medicine, civil engineering, and the rocket science that NASA relies upon. It's all science, and what intelligent design supporters are actually doing is telling people not to trust science. Great thing to be preaching at NASA, eh?
I understand your point, Michael, and it's probably not far from the truth. I also understand that those who don't share your point of view (like JT and LouAZ) feel it necessary to discredit your thought by calling you names and acting like 2nd graders themselves; but, you should expect as much from commentors like that.
@ Kafir, science is provisional when a "new" discovery is made that changes the minds of scientists.
All beliefs in religion are not absolute, though, because of the fact there is not one, universal religion. There are many religions in which people can say their own belifs are absolute, but religion as a whole is far from absolute.
I think you miss my point, TxnBud
Religion is dogma, but science is self-correcting.
Ummm, yeah if I distribute religious propaganda at work, I don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what's going to happen next. NASA didn't fire this guy because of his nutty point of view, they fired him because of his idiocy.....
Easy solution. Make an experiment to test the ID hypothesis. Use scientific methods. Publish results in scientific journal. What's the problem?
Aw c'mon man. It's Biblical. The scientific proof is inherent...
ID has no falsifiable hypothesis that can be tested. Everything we see is because it was made just the way that we see it. There is simply no scientific tests that can be made to evaluate it. The ID proponents support their work only by taking potshots at evolution. This in itself is wonderfully specious -> If evolution is wrong then ID must be correct...