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 Nathan Englander grew up in an insular Jewish world and still says that "the whole world is Jewish to me."
March 19th, 2012
02:45 PM ET
For Jewish author, invisible divide between religious and secular worldsBy Todd Leopold, CNN (CNN) – Nathan Englander’s characters are always looking over their shoulders. They’re Jews, mostly, often of an intensely devout stripe, but whether they’re Israeli settlers, Orthodox youngsters or thoroughly assimilated middle-class New Yorkers, they’re waiting for judgment, either from history, a disappointed God or their next-door neighbors. They’re straddling worlds and don’t want to put a wrong foot in either. Englander, author of a new book of short stories called “What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank,” has roots in many of these worlds. He was raised in an Orthodox community in Long Island, New York, and then entered the secular world when he went to college. He’s spent time in Iowa – at the famed Iowa Writers Workshop – and has lived in Israel. He now lives in Brooklyn and describes himself as “culturally Jewish.” The concept of identity and its burdens is close to his heart. “What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank” comes five years after Englander’s critically praised novel “The Ministry of Special Cases” and 13 years after his first story collection, “For the Relief of Unbearable Urges,” put him on the literary map. The Foer questions: Literary wunderkind turns 35 Englander recently did the translation for a new Passover haggadah (a book that recounts the Exodus over the traditional meal), due out in March. He’s now at work on “The Twenty-Seventh Man,” a play based on a story from “Urges,” which will premiere in the fall. Englander spoke to CNN while visiting New Orleans. The following is an edited version of the interview. CNN: It’s been five years since “The Ministry of Special Cases,” and that took you several years. How long does it take you to write? Nathan Englander: (For) the novel, I didn’t do anything else, except for like mild dental hygiene, for eight years. I get so consumed. I work these stories in my head. I wrote five of the eight stories (in “Anne Frank”) in the last year. And I do draft after draft. As a reader, if I see a comma out of place, I slam the book shut. I did NOT invest all this time to see an errant comma. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories This Jewish idea of kavanah – focus – I was raised with. The rabbis were always on us: “kavanah, kavanah” – “focus, focus.” I also like the idea of things that transfer from Jewish life, like a makom kavuah (a fixed place for prayer). You pray in the seat in the same place every day, because that will help you. It’s like writers, why you should sit at the same desk or eat the same thing or work at the same time: It’s all about finding focus. To write is an out-of-body experience. That is the point. That’s where the work gets done. CNN: The Jews in your stories are almost carrying a physical burden and are always looking over their shoulders. Is this religious or cultural? Englander: I don’t know if these are the ideas of a culture or of a religion. It might just be being a New Yorker. (But) these things are me. I want to shy away from stereotypes. I get so sensitive about the Jewish writer thing (because) I understand where the assumptions come from. We all have to categorize. (But) a story’s only functioning if it’s universal. That’s the definition of art to me. It’s not a functioning story for me if it’s not absolutely real world, and it’s not absolutely real characters. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter I grew up totally religious in this insular world. I lived in Israel. I lived in New York. I lived as a religious person. I took a degree in Judaic studies when I was at college to learn everything secular. I’ve had many facets of Jewish experience. The whole world is Jewish to me. That was my experience. The other world didn’t exist. So for me to see this as somehow “other,” I have no sense of what “other” is. CNN: Your stories are often haunted by the Holocaust. Englander: I spent a fall in Berlin a couple years ago, and I was living at the American Academy, formerly the American Officers Club, and before that it was built by a Jewish banker who got out before the Holocaust, and then it was taken over by a high-ranking SS officer. But the point is to live in the house that was built by a Jew and also has the ghost of a very horrible Nazi, and basically our windows looked out at Lake Wannsee of the Wannsee Conference, looking across the way at the house where (top Nazi officer Adolf) Eichmann sat. … I feel like this book is part of that time. Living in Germany in this Jewish house, this SS house, something snapped, a freeing thing. I suddenly became comfortable that this is how my head is patterned. If this is something that obsesses me and tortures me and focuses me and is all about this idea, that is how my brain is patterned, we are talking about me willing to be vulnerable and explore my pattern in this brain. CNN: I like how you investigate that theme about whether it’s better to look forward and put the past aside or to never forget. Englander: I don’t know what other idea to have. In the “Camp Sundown” story (about elderly Jews who believe a member of their vacation camp was a Nazi collaborator), the idea of all these things – of religion, of faith – is finding meaning or making order from chaos. So we need the Holocaust for that story; we need Jews for sure; we need East Coast Jewish culture for that story. But the point that I’m exploring is, what do we do if justice has not been delivered? If someone will not deliver justice, do you deliver justice? Religion helps to frame those things. CNN: Do you enjoy poking at the hypocrisy of your more devout characters, who seem unaware of how elements of their religious lives contrast with their secular lives? Englander: Often what we’re saying when that person is hypocritical, we’re saying that person is human. So the idea is more that when there’s a social contract. Teachers have responsibility. Clergy. That’s where hypocrisy comes in. Where this religious thing never stops interesting me is people negotiating that balance of humanity and faith and what (the Bible) says and what they’re supposed to do. I hardly ever feel comfortable saying I’m sure of everything. The idea of people wanting to change things with such great surety, using the Bible for that, is such a misuse of the Bible and such hubris. Clearly, we’re supposed to treat each other better, and the idea of using the Bible to treat everybody worse in this country, to me, is just a crazy reading.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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This indeed would be a great civilization if we rid ourselves of fiction and lived in reality. Heaven/hell do not exist and those who grasp to that belief is because of their ability to control others. Religion is definitely opium for the masses and the biggest sham to have ever been conceived by mankind. Not divine power, but mortal callousness.
If , for reasons that are unknown to me, you feel that there are no realities for faith and the possibilities of god with the universe and all the stars around you, Then I feel sorry for your loss. I KNOW I am guided. Whether spiritually or by a being that I cannot yet comprehend. It is still true to me. All the best in your search for the truth.
"All the best in your search for the truth."
The truth is there is no god, no heaven, no hell – the truth is found in science especially since the bible has been proven not to be a historical book.
Dan, your search for truth, as you say, is not a valid concept. Imaginary friends called jesus don't guide anyone, and if you are guided by something "up there", you are a very sad, brainwashed individual, exactly like all religous people, brainwashed.
Wake up, Dan. It's all fake. Every bit of it.
Prayer changes things
Proven .
- You've been proven a liar over and over again on this blog. A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested Friday morning...
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
Plus don't forget. The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!! .. .. .. ... .. .
Humans are a multicultural species. Anyone who truly believes that there's a God who created humans needs to respect that God made humans multicultural for a reason. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus. Shintos, every other religion in the world, has contributed to human spiritual life. Bear in mind that your own ancestors may have been Pagans, and their Pagan gods were as real to them as your god/gods are to you. And they had no more or less proof of their gods' existence than you do for yours. Whether you worship Jesus or Venus can depend on nothing more than whether you were born in the 2nd century or the 20th. No matter what our religious beliefs or affiliations, we're all just humans, and we have far more in common than differences. We are one species, all descended from a common ancestor who lived hundreds of thousands of years ago. Everything else is window dressing.
I dont know what I am talking anyway, but I like to point out the the world is a better place with multiple ethnicities. If that is not the case who would all those poor religious fanatics through out the history massacre in name of religion and god?
In Exodus Chapter 12:1-13, we find
“And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, this month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: and if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, of from the goats: and ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread, and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire: his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing remain until the morning: and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it: with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste; it is the LORD’s Passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.”
For a poor Israelite family, if he did not have a lamb he was to go to his neighbor and partake. One cannot do that unless he has already been socializing, talking or communicating with the person next door. In other words, how does one eat with someone when there has been no fellowship?
I dont know what I am talking anyway, but I like to point out the the world is a better place with multiple ethnicities. If that is not the case what would those poor religious fanatics through out the history massacre in name of religion and god?
Live and let Live! Every religion gives a good outline to living a good life. No religion is better than the other. Practice what you preach and we can all get along. The first thing we should remember is respecting one another's rights to believe how they want.
That may sound good superficially, but should we really respect everyone's beliefs? Should we respect people's beliefs who threaten others with eternal damnation? Who believe it is righteous to carry out horrendous acts of violence? Who believe that certain groups are inferior to others? Who believe in talking others into suicide pacts? What about people who believe they should withhold medical treatment from their children?
I think it is perfectly acceptable, if not morally right, to hold beliefs up to scrutiny and evidence, and to evaluate the degree to which they are valid and beneficial.
No one's beleifs threaten anyone else with eternal damnation.
Firstly, because there is no such thing as eternal damnation. Secondly, because if there was such a thing, I couldn't threaten you with it purely by my beleif system.
If someone's actions cause a physical threat to someone else, then that is against the law. It is not their beleifs that is the problem; it is their actions. Do not persecute someone for their beleifs; hold them accountable for their actions.
Unless their Mormons or Scientologists, because those guys are just after your wallets. Oh crap, wait, that's true for almost all religions. Darn it!
There are good and bad Jews like any other ethnic group. Do not mix them with Satanhaju.
Jews think they are the chosen one. Yeah, sure, you should have carve out a land out of Germany instead of taking Palestinian land and wonder why Palestian people are fighting for their freedom and land. You expect the world to keep talking about holocaust that did not happen in the US but you expect everybody to remember it even though other massacres have happenend in other parts of the world but nobody wants to talk about except holocaust. I would like my children to read some other atrocities besides holocaust.
Tell your children:
Read: Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, about the Armenian holocaust, the terrible things going on in Africa in our time, and by all means, also about the Nazi holocaust in Europe.
Regarding that “chosen one” notion; I have heard it far more often from Christians than Jews. For some reason Christians like to think of the Jews as God’s chosen people, but I don’t know why.
Indeed, it might have been far better politically if the UN had carved out a land for the Jews in Europe instead of Palestine, since the refuges were culturally European. But they chose a location with historical roots, and given that and the need to have a homeland, it’s pretty doubtful that the Jews will ever leave so the world must deal with what has developed because of that choice.
Palestine was a Jewish homeland for over 6,000 years. Palestine was a Jewish kingdom when the Roman Empire annexed it. This is not something that the U.N. made up. Jews and Arabs have lived together in Palestine for thousands of years, and it has been ruled by both at various times. This is why there ancient places in Palestine that are sacred to Jews and Muslims and Christians. The Jewish homeland is Palestine and nowhere else. If the Romans had stayed out of Palestine, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. We would just be celebrating Israel's 6,000th birthday.
You should have no trouble finding reading material about other atrocities for your children. Look to what ever faith you belong to. There are no shortages of atrocities in that history. You have interesting ideas about what you want your kids to read.
Maybe I should start following the Bahai faith. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Krishna are all pretty cool in their own way.
The reason people hate the Jews is because they are smarter, funnier, talented, good looking and they take care of their own.
Really?
The real reason some people hate Jess is because some people think hate is a virtue. Hate is just a relic of human evolution. Our vanity makes some of us deny it, but humans are just very smart apes, and hate was born in our brutish past. Some people just never get beyond hating their fellow humans, that's all. Jews are no better or worse than any other ethnic group. Anyone who believes that he's "higher" or "lower" than someone else based solely on ethnicity/color/religion is simply deluding himself. The most beautiful, intelligent people in the world are those who rise above hatred.
Anecdotally speaking, I'd tend to agree with everything except the good looking part. Sure there are some drop dead gorgeous Jewish folks, but for the most part...not really!
Jews are the most racist and ethnic group in the entire world. They hate non-Jews... Go to New York or London they won't do business or trust any non-Jews!!
Really, Jan? As a neutral outside observer I've found that jews are the least dangerous of the three deluded Abrahamic tribes. The muslims want to kill everyone not like them and the christians want to convert everyone that's not like them. The jews just want the other two to leave them alone.
take this off- it is anti-semetic stereotype...
Well it used to be if enough people clicked Report abuse that things would be taken off. Now the Report abuse does not work anymore.
What an unbelievable bigot you are. So scary that there are people like you in the world.
My Jewish mentor in college, so many Jewish doctors and colleagues, friends and neighbors have been among THE BEST PEOPLE...
you're full of it
Perhaps a look at the history of one of the world's longest surviving nations and the way through out time so many nations have tried to distroy them. The Jewish people have always had a target on their backs, and so their distrust – I would say is well founded. What the world should see and be in awe of is that the God of Abraham has kept them all these centuies as He said he would in the Abrahamic covenent – even when they have turned their backs on Him. This should prove to all the nations that the God of Abraham is the one and only TRUE God of all creation.
awww....jan....feeling a little put upon?
"This should prove to all the nations that the God of Abraham is the one and only TRUE God of all creation."
Yeah, go to the Hindus and let me know how you do with your "proof"
Sam Stone; there will come a day when even you will know that to be true.
johnp: wow...that settles it, thanks for the info.
@ Elayne I don't think any of these comments should be removed. I like to hear what people really think. I find it interesting as a Jew that there are so many people who still hate us for being Jewish.
"The Jewish people have always had a target on their backs... What the world should see and be in awe of is that the God of Abraham has kept them all these centuies as He said he would in the Abrahamic covenent .... This should prove to all the nations that the God of Abraham is the one and only TRUE God of all creation."
That's about the craziest logic I have ever heard – the God of Abraham is the only true god because he promised to protect his chosen people ... who have ever since that time have been relentlessly persecuted and murdered.
Sounds like a pretty solid argument against the God of Abraham to me!
Silly Jan.
Ahhh, no. What you are referring to are a small visible minority of jews, who like certain Mennonites or suicide bombers are extremists (not meaning to compare mennonites to suicide bombers). I am Jewish and I have cousins that won't make eye contact with me (from that group). Then I have other cousins that smoke pot, play video games and hang out in multicultural places and have regular jobs. The problem is people are people, by saying jews are like this or Christians are like that one just further stereotypes and segregates. The reality is all these religions are man-made and anyone who wasn't born into brainwashing and who has half a thread of intelligence knows this. There is definitely a creator – but he/she is not the bearded dude we learn about as children. Finally, historically the way the world works is this... you have power... you take something... it becomes yours. America once belonged to the natives and maybe there was a time when palestinians were in power, but the Romans came and the Turks... The land really belongs to whoever takes it. The jews have the ball – you want it take it back! But really, just be friends. Share a shwarma and stop fighting over a useless piece of sand.
Jews loves money..... that's their motto and goal in life. Every single penny helps them according to Jews!
Do they keep a lot of cash you know like around the house?
why do you allow anti-semetic stereotypes? This ignorance and hatred should not be posted. Would you allow these things to be said of Blacks or other groups?
My Jewish doctor saved my life from Melanoma. You can s*ck my d*ck
elayne: because the more they are posted, the more absurd they look.
Thank you St.Louise Baby. Jews do love money. Money is good. It buys things... wait you don't like money? You HATE money??? Well you are obviously not Jewish. Lol That was the stupidest thing I ever read. Jews don't like money any more than anyone else, we're just really smart so we make more of it! If you like money, I can recommend a good jewish banker I know, that will turn your trailer park piggy bank into a proper investment.
Calling a lie a lie.
From earlier, in numerous places "Okay, b4bigbang, one last chance to demonstrate that creationists don't just make stuff up... I'm calling you out. Show me the modern textbooks that present "Nebraska Man" as a hominid fossil, show me or admit once and for all that you creationists often simply lie to try to support your point of view...I'm serious. What textbooks?"
So, despite repeated attempts, b4bigbang has not responded (though he has continued to comment on quite a lot on other things). Although I also have heard other creationists make this claim, no one else has responded either. I am going to go ahead and call a lie a lie. My point here is not to particularly attack b4bigbang, it is to take this one pretty typical creationist claim and point out that it is an absolutely unsupportable falsehood, and that this is pretty typical of creationist arguments.
There seems to be some unwritten rule that it's okay to say absolutely anything in order to further the creationist cause, and whether it is true or not is irrelevant. The dishonesty is so pervasive and is in relation to so many subjects that it's often hard to know where to begin to address it.
The one thing I am never quite sure of is if a particular individual is knowingly lying, or if they are innocently ignorant and merely perpetuating the lies of others. A number of people, somewhere along that chain of propaganda have to be aware of the dishonestly and freely perpetuate it anyway...ironically, in the name of "Truth."
@False Dichotomy
You said, "The one thing I am never quite sure of is if a particular individual is knowingly lying, or if they are innocently ignorant and merely perpetuating the lies of others."
I don't think that those that come here on a regular basis (like b4bigbang) can possibly claim to be "innocently ignorant". They are part of the movement to promote the creationist agenda. They are actively and deliberately undermining science and science education. They appear to hate science because it unrelentingly pushes their beliefs into the realm of fables. They appear so blinded by that hate for science that they will do anything to stop it. They aim to keep the American youth ignorant, in the hopes that they will reject science and remain in "the flock".
They defend the indefensible, and will do so by any means. They are religious zealots. They are "the American Taliban".
@false: ID/creationism has been debunked so just give the baby his rattle and leave him to make noise in the corner. lol
Careful FD we may decide to ask God to deal with you, actually we already are. I hope you come to see God and Know Him.
johnp: perhaps God will encourage you to spread lies about me?
OOOO!! LOOK! An article about a Jewish author. Quick, let's skip the article and get to the religion bashing (ironically, exactly what the author in this article finds baffling and crazy) ! Let's revel in our anonymity and discuss things that we would never say in public or that have nothing to do with the article! The joys of the internet.
Don't need to FD you are doing a pretty good job yourself.
johnp: you do realize that people cannot have any feeling (fear, love, etc) toward a being in which they do not believe, don't you?
Sam – as I already said – One day you will believe. I believe because I have come to know the love of God, and because I love Him in return I don't need to "Fear" Him, as I once did. I was once a sceptic as you are, I hope you one day know God as I now do. Blessings.
@johnp: "Don't need to FD you are doing a pretty good job yourself."
Doing a pretty good job of what? Are you suggesting I am wrong for pointing out that lying is unacceptable? That God would disapprove of me pointing out that one of his followers is lying in his name? Should I be "dealt with" by God and his followers as you stated above?
LinCA
You go to excessive lengths to place the Tooth Fairy on the same level of God. Even though I understand your argument that based on evidence they have 0 proofs of disproof. Problem is that we know the Tooth Fairy is made up and God keeps popping up in all shapes and forms over thousands of years. I think your agrument is worse than a baseless creationist idea.
LinCA
Oopps that was an incoherent reply. Let me rephrase; you come with all kinds of defense to equate the Tooth Fairy and God. What is your reason? When I was arguing for God my reason was not out of hate but simply the two are not even on the same level in my mind. I once thought the clock maker argument was good as proof there must be an intelligent designer. I regurgitated that line many times not out of malice but that it looked very right and convincing. Now, I see an argument that the human eye is proof that there is a God. Well, I will hold off on that one because it gets into areas of micro evolution I really not understand. But, look out if I ever get a handle on evolution I will prove that unicorns existed but could not be allowed on the Ark because they may accidently poke a hole in the boat.
@fred
You said, "You go to excessive lengths to place the Tooth Fairy on the same level of God."
It appears to be necessary (yet futile) to keep pointing out that their respective likelihoods of existence is equal, based on the equal evidence for both.
You said, "Even though I understand your argument that based on evidence they have 0 proofs of disproof."
That gives their hypotheses of existence equal merit.
You said, "Problem is that we know the Tooth Fairy is made up and God keeps popping up in all shapes and forms over thousands of years."
The problem isn't that we dismiss the Tooth Fairy as non-existent, but that some of us can't seem to do the same with gods.
The number of people that share an unfounded belief, doesn't correlate to the validity of such a belief. Your argument is an Argumentum Ad Populum fallacy, and as such, carries no weight.
Just because at a time in the not too distant past, virtually everyone believed the world to be flat and at the center of the solar system, even the universe, didn't make it so. Santa Claus doesn't exist for children and ceases to exist for adults, just because they stop believing in him. It's the initial belief that is unfounded and incorrect. Beliefs in gods are no different.
You said, "I think your agrument is worse than a baseless creationist idea."
You are entitled to your opinion. But you hold your opinion in spite, and not because, of the available evidence.
You said, "you come with all kinds of defense to equate the Tooth Fairy and God. What is your reason?"
I equate the two because there's equal evidence for both. Belief in gods, any gods, is no different than a belief in the Tooth Fairy (see above).
You said, "When I was arguing for God my reason was not out of hate but simply the two are not even on the same level in my mind."
No offense, but I sincerely doubt that anyone will mistake you for a scientist. It isn't the fairly benign ramblings of obvious believers that is the most harmful. It's the concerted effort by pseudo-scientist that does most of the damage.
You said, "I once thought the clock maker argument was good as proof there must be an intelligent designer. I regurgitated that line many times not out of malice but that it looked very right and convincing. Now, I see an argument that the human eye is proof that there is a God. Well, I will hold off on that one because it gets into areas of micro evolution I really not understand."
Every argument for creationism is in essence rooted in ignorance. They all hinge on the claimant not being able to further rationalize, or comprehend what preceded the last step that he did comprehend (or thought he did). Then they insert a creator, and "poof, magic".
You said, "But, look out if I ever get a handle on evolution I will prove that unicorns existed but could not be allowed on the Ark because they may accidently poke a hole in the boat."
Lol. If you find evidence of unicorns, please share it with us. New discoveries are cool.
LinCA
Basically what you are saying is that the assumptions you use prove Santa, Tooth Fairy and God to be equal. We both know Santa and the Fairy did not exist and can agree upon that yes? The existence of God has been known perhaps tens of thousands of years throughout diverse peoples and lands this we can agree on. The assumptions used by you produce a result that conflicts with what is known to be true.
Not to be insulting but no one would accuse you of possessing an abundance of right brain matter.
There are flood stories from many cultures over thousands of years. It would seem logical to assume these stories were rooted in various floods. You would not say just because there are lots of flood stories does not mean floods happened. They did and we both know it. I cannot prove these floods happened is a valid statement. To say these floods never happened is invalid.
What you know consists of a spec that can be seen in a sea of what cannot be seen. Does it make sense to apply the mechanics of the physical realm to the non physical?
@fred
You said, "Basically what you are saying is that the assumptions you use prove Santa, Tooth Fairy and God to be equal."
Not really. I don't aim to prove that they don't exist. I state that the likelihood of existence of any of these mythical beings is proportional to the evidence in support.
You said, "We both know Santa and the Fairy did not exist and can agree upon that yes?"
I agree that is is highly unlikely that either exists as their stories are clearly fairy tales. They also are said to have attributes not seen anywhere in the natural world.
You said, "The existence of God has been known perhaps tens of thousands of years throughout diverse peoples and lands this we can agree on."
That's the same argument you used earlier. It's an Argumentum Ad Populum fallacy, and as such, carries no weight. People think they know their particular god exists. Just because they are ignorant, doesn't mean they're right.
You said, "The assumptions used by you produce a result that conflicts with what is known to be true."
Wishful thinking doesn't make it "known to be true". We don't know it to be true. Without any evidence in support, there is absolutely no reason to even assume it is.
You said, "Not to be insulting but no one would accuse you of possessing an abundance of right brain matter."
Don't worry, I've been falsely accused of much worse by far better.
You said, "There are flood stories from many cultures over thousands of years. It would seem logical to assume these stories were rooted in various floods. You would not say just because there are lots of flood stories does not mean floods happened. They did and we both know it. I cannot prove these floods happened is a valid statement. To say these floods never happened is invalid.
I know floods happen. I've experienced them first hand and seen numerous news reports on others. I have no reason to assume that floods are a new phenomenon. There is even archeological evidence of floods. Stories of floods are believable because we can still see the same thing happen today. It doesn't require magic or imaginary friends.
But just because we know that floods happen today, and have happened in the past, doesn't mean that every story about floods is true or accurate.
You said, "What you know consists of a spec that can be seen in a sea of what cannot be seen. Does it make sense to apply the mechanics of the physical realm to the non physical?"
I don't dispute that there are things we can't see. I know that there are things we don't know. I accept that there are things and phenomena that we'll never know or understand. But just because there are things that we don't know (yet), means that we should just make shit up. Don't get me wrong, you are free do do so, but don't expect anyone to take it seriously.
LinCA
The lens you see the world through is your reality just as my view is my reality. Before my conversion prayer was nonsense yet afterword I could see Gods hand along the way. Nothing measurable changed in the physical realm in that Gods hand was not observable before or after conversion. My field of view now incorporated a spiritual aspect which was based on the words of Christ initially as that was what opened my eyes to this alternate reality. The words in the Bible did not change the presence of God was revealed. You can burn my Bible as it is paper and God is not confined by man you cannot burn the Quran because Ala is of man. Mormons, Muslims and Catholics etc have created a god in their image rather than taking the revelation God provides. You want proof that man made gods exist and you are correct they do not exist anymore than a Fairy.
That is not God who when asked by Moses whom shall I say sent me “tell them I AM sent you”
@fred
You said, "Before my conversion prayer was nonsense yet afterword I could see Gods hand along the way. Nothing measurable changed in the physical realm in that Gods hand was not observable before or after conversion. My field of view now incorporated a spiritual aspect which was based on the words of Christ initially as that was what opened my eyes to this alternate reality. The words in the Bible did not change the presence of God was revealed."
If that works for you, all the better for you. Whatever gets you through the day. But unless you can provide some evidence that your god actually exists, it's no different from believing in the Tooth Fairy.
You said, "You can burn my Bible as it is paper and God is not confined by man you cannot burn the Quran because Ala is of man."
I have no intention of burning your bible or anyone's qur'an. While their only value to me is caloric, I simply dismiss them. If I found myself in a situation where I had to resort to burning books to stay alive, they would be some of the first to go.
You said, "Mormons, Muslims and Catholics etc have created a god in their image rather than taking the revelation God provides."
Don't forget all other christian sects and cults, and every other religion in the world. There is NO difference. There is not a single one that can claim they're right, yet all do.
Your god must be pretty incompetent for fucking up so badly that he only managed to get a small group to believe in him just right. If even most of the believers in your god get it wrong, how can he be worthy of worship at all?
You said, "You want proof that man made gods exist and you are correct they do not exist anymore than a Fairy."
I only want evidence if you aim to convince me. I require no evidence for you to believe. I couldn't care less about what believers believe. Just don't expect me to buy any of the nonsense, and even less to live by the arcane rules.
You said, "That is not God who when asked by Moses whom shall I say sent me “tell them I AM sent you”"
... and the gullible fell in behind him, and walked in goose step to the battle field to fight for their imaginary friend.
Sorry, I'll pass on the delusion.
LinCA
“Your god must be pretty incompetent for fu-cking up so badly that he only managed to get a small group to believe in him just right.”
One thread that runs through the Bible is that a remnant is brought through by God into that Promised Land. The rest have that desire to reject God at some level. Beginning with the greatest of all angelic beings from Adam to Jews of Jesus day few have a heart inclined towards God. I do not see it as a mistake rather a complex weeding out of souls that would not enjoy an eternity with God. The end result is the unity of all believers in Christ. Souls that struggled to find that unity.
You and the majority that have been given the opportunity do not want it and reject God in this life. To overwhelm your free will is the same as removing it. This is why Jesus said the gate is narrow and few find it. Gods plan is the opposite of incompetent. Do you have better selection process?
@fred
You said, "I do not see it as a mistake rather a complex weeding out of souls that would not enjoy an eternity with God. The end result is the unity of all believers in Christ. Souls that struggled to find that unity."
Give me some evidence that there is a heaven, or a valhalla, or anyplace where souls go after death, and I'll consider your cockamamie story.
You said, "You and the majority that have been given the opportunity do not want it and reject God in this life."
Yeah, I really don't have time for imaginary friends.
You said, "To overwhelm your free will is the same as removing it."
No, no, no. I exercised my free will, right after I exercised my brain. The entire god story is so ludicrous that I have difficulty comprehending that anyone still believes that nonsense.
You said, "This is why Jesus said the gate is narrow and few find it. Gods plan is the opposite of incompetent. Do you have better selection process?"
You imply that there is anything to have a selection process for. There isn't a rational argument to be made for that.
LinCA
“Yeah, I really don't have time for imaginary friends.”
Oh, you miss out on so much. When I once trained for race I had mental images of ridding like Lance Armstrong and beating him to the finish, when I played ball I would swing like Barry Bonds. Not quite like the imaginary friends where you turn your head and talk out loud with them (for me anyway). Opps wait a minute I may have glanced to the right and winked as I beat Lance across the finish line by a nose.
“The entire god story is so ludicrous that I have difficulty comprehending that anyone still believes that nonsense.”
=>Ok, must admit the god story was nonsense before my sudden conversion and when I hear other god stories (Islam) for example they are nonsense yet I see where they pulled the story from old Hebrew text then putting their twist on it. Even there I see a thread of Divine truth that moves across its teaching.
Certainly you have read Jonah and the big fish considering Jesus used that example as to why he would not play the game of prove you are God in a way it meets our standard of proof to the skeptical Sanhedrin Priests. If you are looking at the silly big fish that spits out Jonah after 3 days your mind and heart were led off track like the Sanhedrn (actually true mind and heart were revealed). Ditto if you get caught up in the worm that eats the shade tree. In short you have on a set of glasses that seeks to disprove, mock or belittle (all of which have their roots in pride). Going back to Eve the position of the mindset has not changed that looks for something other than God and that other is always rooted in self. There is a reason most self help books are rooted in the principles of the Bible. Atheists love them as long as the feared mention of god is not brought up.
“You imply that there is anything to have a selection process for. There isn't a rational argument to be made for that.”
=>Agreed it is not rational because reason will get tangled up with what kind of fish was it anyway and where are the bones.
@fred
You said, "Oh, you miss out on so much. When I once trained for race I had mental images of ridding like Lance Armstrong and beating him to the finish, when I played ball I would swing like Barry Bonds. Not quite like the imaginary friends where you turn your head and talk out loud with them (for me anyway). Opps wait a minute I may have glanced to the right and winked as I beat Lance across the finish line by a nose."
I can only assume and hope that you knew those guys weren't really there. Imagination, fantasy and role playing can be fun and beneficial as long as you realize that they are imagination, fantasy and role playing. You, and your fellow believers, appear to be unable to separate imagination from reality.
You said, "=>Ok, must admit the god story was nonsense before my sudden conversion"
The story didn't change. It's equally ludicrous now as it was then.
You said, "and when I hear other god stories (Islam) for example they are nonsense yet I see where they pulled the story from old Hebrew text then putting their twist on it. Even there I see a thread of Divine truth that moves across its teaching."
Same shit, different wrapper.
You said, "There is a reason most self help books are rooted in the principles of the Bible."
Even if they are, and I'm not saying that they are, I think you're jumping to a conclusion here. Could it be that most self help books that you have access to, because they are written by Americans, for Americans, are written by christians? Could it also not be that noting in the bible is unique to it, or even original? Just because the principles also appear in the bible doesn't necessarily make them biblical.
You said, "Atheists love them as long as the feared mention of god is not brought up."
Not everything in the bible is wrong. It contains a collection of morals of the time it was written. Not all of it is bad. It's the belief in the fairy tale part, and the fanatical adherence to the wrong parts that ruins it for the rest of us.
You said, "Agreed it is not rational because reason will get tangled up with what kind of fish was it anyway and where are the bones."
Those pesky little details, right? Don't you hate it when they ruin a perfectly good lie?
LinCA
“The story didn't change. It's equally ludicrous now as it was then.”
=>correct. Now, should I lose my faith would it again be ludicrous? Based on the atheists on this site that once believed the answer would be yes. In that case the only thing that changed was faith which is probably why the Bible said without faith you cannot please God.
“Same sh-it, different wrapper.”
=>Like M.C. Hammer and M&M
@LinCA
You said, "Now, should I lose my faith would it again be ludicrous?"
No, no, no. It still is ludicrous. It was never not ludicrous.
You said, "In that case the only thing that changed was faith which is probably why the Bible said without faith you cannot please God."
The christian god only exists inside the minds of those that have faith in the bible.
Oops, that was, of course, @fred. I don't usually talk to myself.
LinCA
I thought I should reply because if I didn't you would have been replying to yourself. It would have been your word against your own and the truth would only be in your mind.
You most likely would argue that there is no proof of soul and all that is in your mind also. Paul and Jesus were very aware of this so there is much talk about the atti-tude of the mind. When we speak of the att-itude of the mind it eliminates the need to argue soul. Can a simple transformation of the atti-tude of the mind cause me to see what before I could not see? It could cause me to look at the bright side of life or place my focus someplace else all of which would change my direction and view of life. Can it make a taking serpent or story about some guy walking on water believable? No, unlike a new Yoga mindset your world view past, present and future has changed. Something more has happened.
In the reverse direction 75% of Christian kids stop going to church after college. The Tooth Fairy has lost her wings. I do not have any personal experience in this as it was sometime after college that I believed. I never did buy into the serpent or fish but understood such a reality was not beyond God. The Divine nature was never in the serpent, fish or Bible rather the hearing of the word. Given it is all in the mind as far as we know for certain what are the limits? I have some wacked out dreams that were very real and makes for great science fiction. That space without limits is where God exists in our mind which extrapolates into that indefinable field outside our physical comprehension. As the att-itude of my mind moves away from this “God” view and into the materialistic the dream fades until I can no longer remember what it was.
God has not changed and the earth continues to spin I begin to see more of what you see. Yet, I am a very different person as a result of the encounter with God.
@fred
You said, "You most likely would argue that there is no proof of soul and all that is in your mind also."
I wouldn't use "proof", I'd argue there is precious little evidence.
You said, "In the reverse direction 75% of Christian kids stop going to church after college. The Tooth Fairy has lost her wings."
Could it be that when kids are exposed to different views, religions and in general something other than what they grew up with, makes them realize that it's all hokum?
You said, "God has not changed and the earth continues to spin I begin to see more of what you see. Yet, I am a very different person as a result of the encounter with God."
I don't doubt that you've changed, I'm entirely agnostic on that matter. I simply can't see any reason to believe it could have possibly have been at the hand of creatures that don't exist.
LinCA
“I simply can't see any reason to believe it could have possibly have been at the hand of creatures that don't exist.”
=>Yes, Yes, we are in complete agreement! Certainly not at the hand of creatures since God cannot be defined especially as a creature. Not sure if even in the Bible anyone has actually seen God. The only physical evidence of Gods interaction with man today (ignoring Jesus for the moment) is a trail left for those that are interested from the testimony of people who claim to have had an encounter with God. The physical evidence would be transformed lives. The cause of the transformation often boils down to opinion or faith.
@fred
You said, "... since God cannot be defined [...] as a creature."
For someone who's not afflicted by the delusion that's really a distinction without a difference.
Prayer changes things ,
Judgemental people are not healthy for anyone.
ONLY FOR THE NEWCOMERS:
Free Will and Future are inherent to all the thinking beings in the Universe. This being the case, it is not possible to alter life with prayers. Statistically, your request might come true but it is simply the result of the variability/randomness of Nature..
So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping/revering cows or bowing to Mecca five times a day.
Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the proper rules of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings.
What exactly has prayer changed? You are making a claim, please support it with evidence.
@goodman: that's the thing "prayer changes things""atheism is bad for......." is just a troll that keeps saying the same on liner again and again and again. i've learned to ignore the little ignorant ________ .
-You've been proven a liar over and over again on this blog. A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested Friday morning...
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
Plus don't forget. The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!! .. .. .. ... .. . ..
Actually, atheism is the product of rational thought. Sanity. Objective acceptance of the real world. Nobody ever started a war in the name of atheism. Religion, on the other hand, has been used to "justify" enslaving and killing other people. It has been used to "justify" denying human rights to women. Atheism has a better track record than religion does. Religion is based on nothing more than a willingness to believe a set of stories that have been handed down for generations. It makes as much sense as believing in dragons and unicorns, because it has the same basis: stories without any supporting evidence. Religion is irrational by definition. Knowing all of this does not prevent me from being a Christian. I follow the teachings of Christ because they form the basis for an ethical life. "Treat others as you would like to be treated." "Be as wise as serpents, but as harmless as doves," "Love one another." "Judge not, lest you be judged." That's what Christianity is about. I'm a Christian, and I thank God for atheists. The world needs rational thought. That's healthy for children and other living things. If there is a God, the proof will be found through rational review of objective evidence, not through mindless belief in folk tales written by unknown authors.
Just so everyone knows, Athiests are even more ignorant than people who believe in the man made god's all us brothers and sisters are hating each other about. The only way to be is agnostic. Atheist says I don't believe in a god. The universe is infinite their are an infinite number of possibilities god being one or a trillion of them. Agnostic says, basically, I'm not saying their isn't a god – cause he's obviously possible – I'm just shaking my magic eight ball and getting: Not freaking likely as a response.
Bgold
An atheist would say that they don't believe in God just like any normally skeptical person might say that they don't believe in pixies. We might all be completely wrong, and pixies might actually exist, but we don't then choose to live our lives AS THOUGH pixies actually do exist, just in case.
When believers bring up this small level of uncertainty what they really want people to do is get caught up in Pascal's Wager and choose to live their lives as though God actually does exist despite the incredible odds against it, just in case. Meanwhile, there are thousands of other gods as well as monsters, hidden treasures, magical objects, alien creatures, and other things that could possibly hold reward, or threaten you like God supposedly can. I don't think that it's possible to believe in all of them, so why arbitrarily pick just this one thing to make allowances for? Atheists are most likely to be skeptical of all unsubstantiated things, not making special allowances just for the unlikely possibilities we like, or wish were real. That's the exact opposite of "ignorance", my friend.