April 7th, 2012
08:32 PM ET
The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth
By John Blake, CNN
(CNN)– Timothy Freke was flipping through an old academic book when he came across a religious image that some would call obscene.
It was a drawing of a third-century amulet depicting a naked man nailed to a cross. The man was born of a virgin, preached about being “born again” and had risen from the dead after crucifixion, Freke says.
But the name on the amulet wasn’t Jesus. It was a pseudonym for Osiris-Dionysus, a pagan god in ancient Mediterranean culture. Freke says the amulet was evidence of something that sounds like sacrilege – and some would say it is: that Jesus never existed. He was a myth created by first-century Jews who modeled him after other dying and resurrected pagan gods, says Freke, author of "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the ‘Original Jesus’ a Pagan God?"
“If I said to you that there was no real Good Samaritan, I don’t think anyone would be outraged,” says Freke, one of a group of mythicists who say Jesus never existed. “It’s a teaching story. What we’re saying is that the Jesus story is an allegory. It’s a parable of the spiritual journey.”
CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories
On Easter Sunday, millions of Christians worldwide mark the resurrection of Jesus. Though Christians clash over many issues, almost all agree that he existed.
But there is another view of Jesus that’s been emerging, one that strikes at the heart of the Easter story. A number of authors and scholars say Jesus never existed. Such assertions could have been ignored in an earlier age. But in the age of the Internet and self-publishing, these arguments have gained enough traction that some of the world’s leading New Testament scholars feel compelled to publicly take them on.
Most Jesus deniers are Internet kooks, says Bart D. Ehrman, a New Testament scholar who recently released a book devoted to the question called “Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth.”
Your comments on Jesus deniers
He says Freke and others who deny Jesus’ existence are conspiracy theorists trying to sell books.
“There are people out there who don’t think the Holocaust happened, there wasn’t a lone JFK assassin and Obama wasn’t born in the U.S.,” Ehrman says. “Among them are people who don’t think Jesus existed.”
Does it matter if Jesus existed?
Some Jesus mythicists say many New Testament scholars are intellectual snobs.
“I don’t think I’m some Internet kook or Holocaust denier,” says Robert Price, a former Baptist pastor who argues in “Deconstructing Jesus” that a historical Jesus probably didn’t exist.
“They say I’m a bitter ex-fundamentalist. It’s pathetic to see this character assassination. That’s what people resort to when they don’t have solid arguments.”
Ehrman, for example, is an agnostic who has written books that argue that virtually half of the New Testament is forged. Another defender of Jesus’ existence is John Dominic Crossan, a New Testament scholar who has been called a heretic because his books challenge some traditional Christian teachings.
But as to the existence of Jesus, Crossan says, he’s “certain.”
He says some Jesus deniers may be people who have a problem with Christianity.
“It’s a way of responding to something you don’t like,” Crossan says. “We can’t say that Obama doesn’t exist, but we can say that he’s not an American. If we’re talking about Obama in the future, there are people who might not only say he wasn’t American, but he didn’t even exist.”
Does it even matter if Jesus existed? Can’t people derive inspiration from his teachings whether he actually walked the Earth?
Crossan says Jesus’ existence matters in the same way that the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.’s existence mattered.
If King never existed, people would say his ideas are lovely, but they could never work in the real world, Crossan says.
It’s the same with an historical Jesus, Crossan writes in his latest book, “The Power of Parable: How Fiction by Jesus Became Fiction about Jesus.”
“The power of Jesus’ historical life challenges his followers by proving at least one human being could cooperate fully with God. And if one, why not others? If some, why not all?”
The evidence against Jesus’ existence
Those who argue against Jesus’ existence make some of these points:
-The uncanny parallels between pagan stories in the ancient world and the stories of Jesus.
-No credible sources outside the Bible say Jesus existed.
-The Apostle Paul never referred to a historical Jesus.
Price, author of “Deconstructing Jesus,” says the first-century Western world was full of stories of a martyred hero who is called a son of God.
“There are ancient novels from that period where the hero is condemned to the cross and even crucified, but he escapes and survives it,” Price says. “That looks like Jesus.”
Those who argue for the existence of Jesus often cite two external biblical sources: the Jewish historian Josephus who wrote about Jesus at the end of the first century and the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote about Jesus at the start of the second century.
But some scholars say Josephus’ passage was tampered with by later Christian authors. And Price says the two historians are not credible on Jesus.
“Josephus and Tacitus – they both thought Hercules was a true figure,” Price says. “Both of them spoke of Hercules as a figure that existed.”
Price concedes that there were plenty of mythical stories that were draped around historical figures like Caesar. But there’s plenty of secular documentation to show Caesar existed.
“Everything we read about Jesus in the gospels conforms to the mythic hero,” Price says. “There’s nothing left over that indicates that he was a real historical figure.”
Those who argue for the existence of Jesus cite another source: the testimony of the Apostle Paul and Jesus’ early disciples. Paul even writes in one New Testament passage about meeting James, the brother of Jesus.
These early disciples not only believed Jesus was real but were willing to die for him. People don’t die for myths, some biblical scholars say.
They will if the experience is powerful enough, says Richard Carrier, author of “Proving History.”
Carrier says it’s probable that Jesus never really existed and that early Christians experienced a mythic Jesus who came to them through visions and revelations.
Two of the most famous stories in the New Testament – the conversion of Paul and the stoning death of Stephen, one of the first Christian martyrs - show that people seized by religious visions are willing to die, Carrier says.
In both the Paul and Stephen stories, the writers say that they didn’t see an actual Jesus but a heavenly vision of Jesus, Carrier says.
People “can have powerful religious experiences that don’t correspond to reality,” Carrier says.
“The perfect model is Paul himself,” Carrier says. “He never met Jesus. Paul only had an encounter with this heavenly Jesus. Paul is completely converted by this religious experience, but no historical Jesus is needed for that to happen.”
As for the passage where Paul says he met James, Jesus’ brother, Carrier says:
“The problem with that is that all baptized Christians were considered brothers of the Lord.”
The evidence for Jesus’ existence
Some scholars who argue for the existence of Jesus says the New Testament mentions actual people and events that are substantiated by historical documents and archaeological discoveries.
Ehrman, author of “Did Jesus Exist?” scoffed at the notion that the ancient world was full of pagan stories about dying deities that rose again. Where’s the proof? he asks.
Ehrman devoted an entire section of his book to critiquing Freke, the mythicist and author of “The Jesus Mysteries: Was the ‘Original Jesus’ a Pagan God?” who says there was an ancient Osiris-Dionysus figure who shares uncanny parallels to Jesus.
He says Freke can’t offer any proof that an ancient Osiris figure was born on December 25, was crucified and rose again. He says Freke is citing 20th- and 19th-century writers who tossed out the same theories.
Ehrman says that when you read ancient stories about mythological figures like Hercules and Osiris, “there’s nothing about them dying and rising again.”
“He doesn’t know much about ancient history,” Ehrman says of Freke. “He’s not a scholar. All he knows is what he’s read in other conspiracy books.”
Craig A. Evans, the author of “Jesus and His World: The Archaeological Evidence,” says the notion that Paul gave his life for a mythical Jesus is absurd.
He says the New Testament clearly shows that Paul was an early enemy of the Christian church who sought to stamp out the burgeoning Jesus movement.
“Don’t you think if you were in Paul’s shoes, you would have quickly discovered that there was no Jesus?” Evans asks. “If there was no Jesus, then how did the movement start?”
Evans also dismissed the notion that early Christians blended or adopted pagan myths to create their own mythical Jesus. He says the first Christians were Jews who despised everything about pagan culture.
“For a lot of Jewish people, the pagan world was disgusting,” Evans says. “I can’t imagine [the Gospel writer] Matthew making up a story where he is drawing parallels between Jesus’ birth and pagan stories about Zeus having sex with some fair maiden.”
The words of Jesus also offer proof that he actually existed, Evans says. A vivid personality practically bursts from the pages of the New Testament: He speaks in riddles, talks about camels squeezing through the eye of a needle, weeps openly and even loses his temper.
Evans says he is a man who is undeniably Jewish, a genius who understands his culture but also transcends his tradition with gem-like parables.
“Who but Jesus could tell the Parable of the Good Samaritan?” Evans says. “Where does this bolt of lightning come from? You don’t get this out of an Egyptian myth.”
Those who argue against the existence of Jesus say they aren’t trying to destroy people’s faith.
“I don’t have any desire to upset people,” says Freke. “I do have a passion for the truth. … I don’t think rational people in the 20th century can go down a road just on blind faith.”
Yet Easter was never just about rationale.
The Easter stories about the resurrection are strange: Disciples don’t recognize Jesus as they meet him on the road; he tells someone not to touch him; he eats fish in another.
In the Gospel of Matthew, a resurrected Jesus suddenly appears to a group of disciples and gives them this cryptic message:
“Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
And what did they see: a person, a pagan myth or a savior?
Albert Schweitzer, a 20th-century theologian and missionary, suggested that there will never be one answer to that question. He said that looking for Jesus in history is like looking down a well: You see only your own reflection.
The “real” Jesus, Schweitzer says, will remain “a stranger and an enigma,” someone who is always ahead of us.
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About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
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Test your faith. Read entire link. You may never believe in God again.
I do love the way you have presented this issue plus it does present me personally some fodder for consideration. On the other hand, from everything that I have observed, I simply hope as the actual comments pile on that folks keep on point and don't start on a soap box regarding some other news du jour. All the same, thank you for this fantastic point and though I can not necessarily go along with it in totality, I regard your standpoint. what will kate wear on her canadian tour1 http://bbs.yfyc.cc/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=762895
“God existed before there were human beings on Earth, He holds the entire world, believers and non-believers, in His omnipotent hand for eternity." - Max Planck (Founder of Quantum Mechanics)
"I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily."– Issac Newton
That proves that not all scientists are gay.
At first listen this song seems to be a subversive, semi-atheistic misappropriation of the Gospel genre. In fact, it's a direct, sincere appeal to Jesus to get back here and do something about this festering mess we're in. If he actually exists, is listening and is indeed the son of God, that would be the best-case scenario. If not, no one can say I didn't try. Feel free to pass this tune around and play it often. You never know ...
Learning is fun with facts.......................... and facts work when teaching children.
Atheist Prof. Peter Higgs: Stop calling Higgs boson the ‘God particle’
Professor Peter Higgs said recently that there is no God and so people should stop referring to the theoretical partial that
bears his name as the “God particle.”
Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says updated Tue May 17, 2011
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen Hawking said in a newspaper interview this week. "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when... \
Where do morals come from?
By Kelly Murray, CNN
Origin of Life: Power Behind Primordial Soup Discovered
Facts work ........................are they as smart as a 5th grader ?
Listening to the Big Bang – In High Fidelity
Apr. 4, 2013 — A decade ago, spurred by a question for a fifth-grade science project, University of Washington physicist John Cramer devised an audio recreation of the Big Bang that started our universe nearly 14 billion years ago.
There are so many ways that people are trying to take God out of this or God out of that, totally stupid. Why is God so threatening to people that choose not to believe. One needs to realize that he is the Air that we breathe, You can certainly remove everything material that you see about him or words that are spoken about him, but you will never be able to remove him from all that believe in the truth!
Blind faith is more dangerous than no faith
Religion is the cause for too much pain and war in this world for any reasonable person to believe it was mandated by our creator.
Jesus is a fairy tale written by Paul Tarsus who wants recognition from the Romans. There is no old or new Testament , there is only one Holy Torah directly from G-D (words) who spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai and written by Joshua before Moses died. G_D is sacred revered by Jews and anyone claiming to be G_D or son of G_d byJewish law is blasphemy punishable by death. Jesus was born human, a son of Mary who was pregnant before she met Joseph and died as human next to two thieves.. G-D is spirit, without form, omnicient, omnipresent, infinite, eternal, never dies cannot be with humans. G_d is perfect, the creator fo Universe, humans are only HIS creation.
"I am no expert in driving trucks through churches, and so maybe taking your clothes off first is the proper protocol." – Johnny Guitar
this person promotes her book by advertising that it was recommended by a best selling author. indeed, this best selling author had the best selling volume on atheism for a spell om amazon.com!
"Mills' book was Amazon.com's best-selling atheist volume from August 2004 through October 2006"
holy cow. little hard up for a story, are we john?
Good lord. Can we please stop putting delusions up as if they are news?! I BELIEVE IN GIANT PINK ELEPHANT GODS! WHERE IS MY CNN COVERAGE.
STOP ENCOURAGING THE MENTALLY ILL!
"But there is another view of Jesus that’s been emerging, one that strikes at the heart of the Easter story. A number of authors and scholars say Jesus never existed. Such assertions could have been ignored in an earlier age. But in the age of the Internet and self-publishing, these arguments have gained enough traction that some of the world’s leading New Testament scholars feel compelled to publicly take them on."
garbage strikes at the heart of the easter story. gaining traction? please. gaining comedic responses. they are hilarious. one god-hater believes buddha had a profound influence on the savior of the world. she is convinced of this because she can't decide what jesus said and what rumors about him say he said. this kind of "scholarship" is further indication that america's educational system's slide down the slippery slope to mediocrity is accelerating faster than anyone predicted.
i love comedy shows, especially when they are free. these bird brains are by far the funniest boobs of all time and should be paid handsomely.
your jesus never existed. Happy Ishtar!
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I'd like to see CNN Writer John Blake interview the creator of the mythicist position, Acharya S.
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Read this book:
'Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel'
by well-known Biblical Scholar Rev. Dr. J. Glen Taylor
Acharya S invented this nonsense? she goes by max, too, i imagine
Why I Am a Mythicist
Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position
The Mythicist Position
This argument is pointless. I believe in jesus as a figure and an icon but try and perceive him as a person – learn moral values from him and to stand up for what i believe in. unfortunately, many people take this too far and become extreme in their stance. this is why i've come to agree with the middle path, the buddhist way. then later, i can write this same thing again about whether or not the buddha existed.... 🙂
me too. wonderful moral dude. great iconic figure. fine, pleasant, sweet guy. just a lovely young man. savior? sky-daddy? resurrected? come on folks! we all know where to draw the line. the same scriptures that put his wonderful moral teachings in his mouth, cannot be taken seriously when they also claim he said, "i and the father are one." "he that hath seen me hath seen the father." let's get real folks.
hateful, anti-god heathen boobs are on to something big here guys. jesus was most likely buddha reincarnated based on egyptian sacred textbooks yet undiscovered
This is a nice idea to take hold of for a modern citizen in a modern society but if you study Jesus's teachings you will see that you have learned nothing from Him if you believe the middle road and modernity is the right way. Christ sternly proclaimed to leave everything behind and follow Him. He states "No one can come to the Father except threw Me". He never proclaimed to be a better person rather that we cannot be good unles we first die to ourselves and let God live threw us. Ephesians 2:15 says "For it is grace we are saved through faith and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
First of all, it's "trough" not "threw". Why are you delusional religious people always so poorly educated that you cannot use decent English?
Next, you are using the babble to prove the babble is true. That's amazingly, absurdly ridiculous. But you probably can't understand that, either. How ironic that you believe your god gave you intelligence and reasoning power and tou discard it and demand others do the same.
Oops, I meant "through". My bad.
At least I have the integrity to admit it when I make a mistake. I could use your answer, though, "God did it." It was a divinely inspired typo!" ROFLMAO