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BYU student video on homosexuality is not in violation of honor code, says administrator
One unnamed male student in the BYU video says he had thoughts of suicide.
April 9th, 2012
06:52 PM ET

BYU student video on homosexuality is not in violation of honor code, says administrator

By Dan Merica, CNN

(CNN)-– The students featured in a video about being gay at Brigham Young University are not in obvious violation of the honor code, according to Carri Jenkins, an assistant to the president of BYU.

Jenkins went on to say that for the video alone, the students would not be punished. The honor code, Jenkins said, is “based on conduct, not on feeling, and if same-gender attraction is only stated, that is not an honor code issue.”

All BYU students sign on to the honor code upon enrollment. The code outlaws premarital sex and breaking the code “may result in actions up to and including separation from the university.”

“Homosexual behavior is inappropriate and violates the honor code. Homosexual behavior includes not only sexual relations between members of the same sex, but all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings,” reads the honor code.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

The 9 minute, 37 second video features a number of gay, lesbian and bisexual students around BYU and is part of the larger “It Gets Better” video campaign started by writer Dan Savage. The project was started in response to a rash of suicides of teenagers who were bullied for being gay. The goal of the videos is to let people know they are not alone and that life gets better.

“It is very different to be gay and Mormon because it feels like neither community accepts you completely,” said Bridey Jensen, acting president of the group Understanding Same-Gender Attraction. “We put out the message for youth that are going through this and we want them to know that we were them a few years ago and it gets better and there is a place for you.”

Jensen’s organization is not recognized by the university, but she did say that professors and administrators have been supportive of what the group is trying to do.

The BYU video is unique in the fact that it discusses being gay at a university that has consistently been ranked as the most unfriendly campus for LGBT students in the country, according to Princeton Review.

Brigham Young is owned and operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and many of the school’s board members are also church officials.

In 2007, the honor code was changed to state that it is based on conduct, not on feeling. Jenkins said, however, that the university observed that policy even before the rule change.

“One's stated sexual orientation is not an honor code issue,” was added in 2007.

Throughout the video, students speak of the hardships they have encountered. In some instances, students talk about their thoughts of suicide.

"I thought that eventually maybe it would be better if I died," said one unnamed male student, "so I did everything I could to really be that perfect Mormon. I thought that was going to cure myself."

Jenkins said what concerned her most about the videos was the talk of suicide.

“I hoped they would use the services available to them and that they would take advantage of the professional services that we have,” Jenkins said, speaking about the university's counseling services.

Though Jensen acknowledged the hardships of being gay and Mormon, she said that in her leadership of this unaffiliated group she has seen an unexpected changing attitude among Mormons toward gay rights.

Jensen said she believes that while church doctrine has not changed, feelings toward LGBT members of the church have.

“I am not sure how much the doctrine or policy within the church will change, but there is definitely a changing of how they treat the issue and how they treat the people who are gay,” Jensen said. “It is definitely getting better within the church. They are not so quick to judge. They understand that they don’t understand everything.”

Richard Bushman, a pre-eminent scholar on the doctrine and history of Mormonism, echoed Jensen. He says the fact this debate is even allowed to occur is a signal of liberalization in attitudes toward homosexuality in Mormonism.

“The last 10 years have been a huge sea change in terms of willingness to accept homosexuals,” Bushman said. “Gay kids are still going to have a tough time in the church, but this level of acceptance and acknowledgement, that is really that last decade I would say.”

Even within the last decade, however, the church has had a confrontational history with gay rights. When Proposition 8, a state constitutional amendment to make same-sex marriage illegal in California, was challenged, Mormons contributed half the $40 million war chest that was used to defend the proposition, according to TIME magazine. Mormons made up 2% of the Californian population.

During the Proposition 8 debate, the church leadership penned a letter that was to be read to all congregations on June 29, 2008.

“We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman,” read the letter. “Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.”

The response from gay rights activists was fierce; many accused the church of bigotry and blind religious obedience.

Jensen, however, as a gay Mormon, took a more nuanced look at the Proposition 8 debate.

“I think that what Prop 8 was all about was the church has a stance that eternal marriage is between a man and a woman,” Jensen said. “As a religious institution, they have every right to protect that.”

Jensen said that while the church defended that position, congregants at large “don’t view us [LGBT Mormons] any different.”

In the video, the students state that 1,800 students at BYU are members of the LGBT community. According to Jensen, those numbers were extrapolated from national numbers that show between 6% and 10% of people have homosexual urges at some point in their lives.

With around 34,000 students at BYU, Jensen said they figured around 1,800 would have experience homosexual urges.

Jenkins disputes those numbers, stating that the university has never collected data on the number of LGBT students at BYU. Those numbers are not “scientifically valid,” Jenkins said.


soundoff (659 Responses)
  1. Rubio

    TO JUST SAYING? stop posting your stupidity here.

    April 11, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
  2. Rubio

    Don't know why ignorant people HAVE to put there stupidty on here if it doesnt pertain them to begin with. Yet you show how stupid you are when you write stupidty about a religion. That only makes you look like a fool for even saying anything about Mormons.

    April 11, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
    • just sayin

      Like what ? Saying Mormons are not Christians because they are not or saying Mormons are a false cult because they are. God bless

      April 11, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, sh!twit. Like lying through your teeth every time you post.

      April 11, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
  3. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things-

    April 11, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
    • Jesus

      -rayer doesn’t not change anyting; you are so full of crap and lies. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs! ~,~

      April 11, 2012 at 6:11 pm |
    • Nyarlathotep

      "Prayer is literally the least you can do."
      - the late, great Hitchens

      April 11, 2012 at 6:47 pm |
    • Hitchens

      Prayer is the best anyone could do.

      April 11, 2012 at 8:34 pm |
    • elvisisallah

      Nothing fails like prayer.

      April 11, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
  4. JOSE0311USMC

    MORMONS CAN MARRIED MORE THAN ONE WOMAN ?? I LIKE THAT LAW...IT MAKE SENSE, YOU WON'T GET BORED MAKING LOVE TO THE SAME WOMAN....WHY WE HAVE SO MANY DIVORCES ...IF YOU MARRIED 7 WOMEN ? YOU CAN _________ONE EACH NIGHT.. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

    April 11, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
    • Rubio

      Reality check, polygamy was something mormons practiced but not anymore.

      April 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
  5. JOSE0311USMC

    RELIGIOUS PEOPLE DO NOT PRACTICE WHAT THEY LEARN IN THE CHURCH......I KNOW RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT LOW INCOME HOUSING IN THEIR TOWN, THAT IS NOT GOD'S WAY...

    April 11, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
  6. Tyler

    Active Mormon here. I read the comments written by so-called "Christians" and if they define their behavior as "Christian," then no, Mormons aren't Christian. "Christians" will be nice to a Mormon's face, especially when they need money or political backing, but the moment they get on a computer, they will lie and slander Mormons without giving it a second thought. At least Athiests/Agnostics/Etc. will disagree with you to your face in a civil manner. I wish I could say the same for some of you "Christians" out there.

    By the way, go to a Mormon bookstore sometime and see how many books you find about the false teachings of other churches, or go to a Mormon meeting sometime and see how much time we spend lying about other religions. Then go to a 'Christian" bookstore or a "Christian" meeting and see how much time they spend discussing the evils of Mormonism. Don't you have better things to talk about?

    April 11, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
    • Worried

      I have been to a mormon sermon with a friend. They bashed Catholics.....in a "just a joke" kind of way. And BD76, god made you that way and loves you for standing-up and hopefully progressing this religion.

      April 11, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
    • Markus Tufton

      Mormons bash protestants as demonic in their temple ceremony. HYPOCRIT.

      April 11, 2012 at 9:08 pm |
  7. Terry G

    Sickening.........

    April 11, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • Robert

      "Sickening........"

      Yeah, religious people can be so hateful and full of prejudice.

      April 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
  8. John

    BYU's so-called "honor code" is a big reason the school will never be accepted into a premier conference. Bigotry does not go over well in the Pac-12, Big-Ten, etc.

    April 11, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
  9. Take it easy

    VIEWPOINT TO CONSIDER: being tempted to do anything is not a sin. Mormon members (not the doctrine) have had trouble being kind to gays in the past. The reason why is because the church has always taught that complete, loving families with a father and mother is the single most important unit to keep a peaceful, intelligent, successful and happy society. You cannot find real statistics that argue that. Experts on every side agree with this. Mormon members then turn their frustrations on those who they think harm the family unit. Divorcees, even guilty ones can be more easily forgiven by the people because members still find a lot in common with them. Members over the years have not found much in common with gays, so they have absorbed a lot of poor treatment and blame for the destruction of families. The church never condoned the poor treatment of gays ever. Members are learning that being loving to everyone, no matter how differently they sin from that other sinner is the most important thing. Members are learning not to ostracize gays. But it takes time, and some individuals will never adjust. This does not mean that the church will ever change it's religion about family or it's definition of sin. The church has always proclaimed man should cleave unto his wife and that family needs to be promoted above everything. Most members never dreamed 20 years ago that this promotion of family would draw the ire of gays.

    April 11, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • Primewonk

      " Experts on every side agree with this."

      Except that the actual scientificc evidence shows that kids (natural or adopted) raised by gay/lesbian couples fair just as good, or better, than those raised by us straights.

      April 11, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • Michael

      It should tell you you're on the wrong side when you have to lie to make your point. Every study actually proves gays and lesbians are just as good as heteros at parenting.

      April 12, 2012 at 12:14 am |
  10. Kimmy

    For correct and accurate information on Mormonism, go to http://www.lds.org or http://www.mormon.org.

    April 11, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • Are you kidding

      How can it be fair and accurate, it's a mormon website? That's like me saying go to my on-line dating service page and get accurate info on me. Just a stupid comment.

      April 11, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
  11. Reality

    ONLY FOR THE NEWCOMERS:-–>>>>

    Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because the Abrahamic god (or mother nature) made them that way.

    To wit:

    o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:

    “ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "

    "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8

    See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”

    Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.

    And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-s-ex unions not same-s-ex marriages.

    April 11, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
    • Kenny of Salt

      Hi, Reality
      You really ought to get that spastic hyphen checked out...

      Peace!

      April 11, 2012 at 4:01 pm |
    • mark

      That research you mentioned was rejected by the original researcher as flawed and inaccurate. I hope all those students are expelled. Why can't there be a place in this world for people who believe in the teachings of Jesus, all of them? Surely, the "OPEN MINDEDNESS" requested of those people for their lifestyle choice should be reciprocated for those pre-destined to be saved.
      Enjoy Hell, losers.

      April 11, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Reality

      The moderators of this blog have set up a secret forbidden word filter which unfortunately not only will delete or put your comment in the dreaded "waiting for moderation" category but also will do the same to words having fragments of these words. For example, "t-it" is in the set but the filter will also pick up words like Hitt-ite, t-itle, beati-tude, practi-tioner and const-tution. Then there are words like "an-al" thereby flagging words like an-alysis and "c-um" flagging acc-umulate or doc-ument. And there is also "r-a-pe", “a-pe” and “gra-pe”, "s-ex", and "hom-ose-xual". You would think that the moderators would have corrected this by now considering the number of times this has been commented on but they have not. To be safe, I typically add hyphens in any word that said filter might judge "of-fensive".

      • Make sure the web address does not have any forbidden word or fragment.

      Sum Dude routinely updates the list of forbidden words/fragments.

      Two of the most filtered words are those containing the fragments "t-it" and "c-um". To quickly check your comments for these fragments, click on "Edit" on the Tool Bar and then "Find" on the menu. Add a fragment (without hyphens) one at a time in the "Find" slot and the offending fragment will be highlighted in your comments before you hit the Post button. Hyphenate the fragment(s) and then hit Post. And remember more than one full web address will also gain a "Waiting for Moderation".
      Zeb’s alphabetical listing

      o “bad letter combinations / words to avoid if you want to get past the CNN "awaiting moderation" filter:
      Many, if not most, are buried within other words, so use your imagination.
      You can use dashes, spaces, or other characters to modify the "offending" letter combinations.
      --–
      ar-se.....as in Car-se, etc.
      ba-stard
      co-ck.....as in co-ckatiel, co-ckatrice, co-ckleshell, co-ckles, lubco-ck, etc.
      co-on.....as in rac-oon, coc-oon, etc.
      cu-m......as in doc-ument, accu-mulate, circu-mnavigate, circu-mstances, cu-mbersome, cuc-umber, etc.
      cu-nt.....as in Scu-ntthorpe, a city in the UK famous for having problems with filters...!
      do-uche
      ef-fing...as in ef-fing filter
      ft-w......as in soft-ware, delft-ware, swift-water, etc.
      fu-ck......!
      ho-mo.....as in ho-mo sapiens or ho-mose-xual, ho-mogenous, etc.
      ho-rny....as in tho-rny, etc.
      jacka-ss...yet "ass" is allowed by itself.....
      ja-p......as in j-apanese, ja-pan, j-ape, etc.
      ji-sm
      koo-ch....as in koo-chie koo..!
      nip-ple
      pi-s......as in pi-stol, lapi-s, pi-ssed, therapi-st, etc.
      pr-ick....as in pri-ckling, pri-ckles, etc.
      ra-pe.....as in scra-pe, tra-peze, gr-ape, thera-peutic, sara-pe, etc.
      se-x......as in Ess-ex, s-exual, etc.
      sh-@t.....but shat is okay – don't use the @ symbol there.
      sh-it
      sl-ut
      sn-atch
      sp-ic.....as in disp-icable, hosp-ice, consp-icuous, susp-icious, sp-icule, sp-ice, etc.
      ti-t......as in const-itution, att-itude, ent-ities, alt-itude, beat-itude, etc.
      tw-at.....as in wristw-atch, nightw-atchman, etc.
      va-g......as in extrava-gant, va-gina, va-grant, va-gue, sava-ge, etc.
      who-re....as in who're you kidding / don't forget to put in that apostrophe!
      wt-f....also!!!!!!!

      There are more, some of them considered "racist", so do not assume that this list is complete.
      -–
      Allowed words / not blocked at all:
      anal
      anus
      ass
      boob
      crap
      damn
      execute
      hell
      kill
      masturbation
      murder
      penis
      pubic
      raping (ra-pe is not ok)
      shat (sh-@t is not ok)
      sphincter
      testes
      testicles

      The CNN / WordPress filter also filters your EMAIL address and NAME as well – so you might want to check those.

      April 11, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      Mark...you will never be saved..no one is coming ..billions have gone before you and you are destined, as with the rest of the human race, and other animals..to turn into dust and get recycled. there is no hell ....relax and enjoy the time you have left..

      April 11, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
    • bg

      Evolved – What's amazing is that you're so sure there is no God.Your claim is a belief too.

      April 11, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
    • Michael

      You fan always spot the religious fraud, like Mark, when they tell you with glee you're going to Hell.

      April 12, 2012 at 12:17 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      bg is more or less correct – it is impossible to prove there are no gods. Now, let's see the believers 'fess up that there is a non-zero probability that there are no gods, not even just 1, therefore there is a real non-zero probablility that their beliefs are all garbage.

      April 12, 2012 at 12:27 am |
  12. Hitchens

    This story has taken a very qu-eer turn.

    April 11, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
  13. pastmorm

    If you are a Mormon.....

    You also believe in a man named Joseph Smith that declared himself a general against the American Government and then said he would create a Theocratic Monarchy with himself at its head.

    You also believe in a man named Joseph Smith that married a 14 year old girl – even though he already had plural wives – because he told the child's family they would receive instant eternal salvation if they have her to him (Smith).

    You also believe in becoming a god after this life if you have committed to and followed all of your temple rituals sincerely and without deviance.

    You also believe that anyone that is not a mormon will NOT be allow to be with Jesus Christ or God, no matter how good they are, if they do not accept your gospel (religion) to be the only true church. For example. Mother Teresa will not be in heaven if she does not accept a posthumous baptism in the after life.

    You also believe that you must take on secret temple names, wear garments (underwear) that has secret symbols that are used in secret rituals in the temple as well as a blood oath that began in 1843, but ended in 1990 when there was a general uproar amongst non-mormons that found out about this particular ritual.

    You also believe Blacks and Native Americans were marked with dark skin for being evil in the pre-life or because they just displeased god.

    You believe that once you are a god of your own world, you with your heavenly wife will create spirit children that will then fill the earthly bodies of human on your own particular planet that you rule over...meaning that you are already (in certain terms) better than the God that created this planet.

    You do believe that Lucifer and Jesus were and are brothers.

    April 11, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Yeah, we all know the Mormons are wack-job nutters. Too bad they don't have normal rational beliefs like the "regular" fundiots –

      Like a woman made from the rib of a man. All humans coming from one breeding pair 6000 years ago. Talking snakes and donkeys. A god who ra.pes a young girl to impregnate her with himself so she can give birth to himself, so he can sacrifice himself to himself to make up for evil that he caused.

      Yep, the Mormons sure are nuttier than the fundiots.

      April 11, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
    • Oldster

      Paul of Tarsus = the Joseph Smith of the first century

      April 11, 2012 at 12:50 pm |
    • Oldster

      p.s. You wouldn't buy a used car from either one of them today... (or Moses either)

      April 11, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
    • GEE OTTO

      Well put !

      April 11, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Test Post.

      April 11, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Dear Pastmorm:
      Re your first paragraph: Joseph Smith didn’t declare himself a general against the American Government nor did he talk about creating a monarchy with himself at the head. I think you are repeating some of the made up stuff that comes out of the anti-Mormon rhetoric. If you think he did say those things then cite primary sources from which you get the information.

      April 11, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Take it easy

      It's a good thing that religions have people on message boards that can tell unsuspecting members what they believe. Otherwise members of these churches would think they believed something else!

      April 11, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      This idea usually comes from the alleged White Horse prophecy. It is alleged that the White Horse prophecy was recorded by two men, Edwin Rushton and Theodore Turley, about 11 years after it was allegedly uttered by Joseph Smith in 1843. It has not been verified historically nor is it Church doctrine.

      However, a recently published BYU Studies article by Don Penrod shows that Edwin Rushton actually wrote it around 1900. Penrod shows that Rushton added fantastic predictions that are unsubstantiated elsewhere. I

      The alleged prophecy is not a reliable record, says Penrod, and it has been officially repudiated by the LDS Church since 1918. However, anti-Mormons still use it to portray Mormons as political fanatics who want to take over the country and the world.

      April 11, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      In December 2007 the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) issued the following press release on this issue:

      “Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel. As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Answering Media Questions About Jesus and Satan," Press release (12 December 2007))

      April 11, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Most Christians would agree that God is the creator and everything else that exists are his creations as the Apostle John taught (John 1:3 see also Col. 1:16 & Rev. 4:11) Since Christ is the Son of God and since all of mankind are referred to as his offspring (Acts 17:29; Romans 8:16) and Jesus said we have a common Father with Him (John 20:17) then it is technically true to say that Jesus and Satan are "brothers," in the sense that both have the same spiritual parent, God the Father.

      Romans 8:29 says that Christ was appointed beforehand (KJV uses "predestined") to "be the firstborn among many brethren."

      Cain and Able were brothers, and yet no Bible believer would say that they are spiritual equals. Mother Teresa and Hitler are siblings, both being children of God, yet no one would say that they are equivalent. The scriptures teach the superiority of Jesus over the devil. Michael and Lucifer (Satan) fought against each other (Revelations 12:7-8)

      April 11, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • Terry G

      Mormonism is a CULT... Total Whack jobs. And we're considering one for President? He'll never be elected.

      April 11, 2012 at 3:40 pm |
    • Peter

      I do???

      April 11, 2012 at 3:59 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Jesus taught the following:

      “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

      “Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

      “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

      “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God:” (John 10:31-36)

      Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus ” for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” Jesus then reminded them of their own scripture which teaches that “, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” from Psalms 82:6.

      After this the Jews had to back down. They could not stone him because they knew he was right. They knew that their own scriptures teach the same thing and they had no case against Him. Jesus reminded them that God had “called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken”.

      The Apostle Paul makes a similar point as recorded in the New Testament. Like Isaiah, he writes of false man-made gods in 1 Corinthians chapter 8. In addition to the false man-made gods on earth, he also writes of the existence of true gods in the heavens He says:

      “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many,) But to us there is but one God.. .” (1 Cor. 8: 5-6)

      Here Paul recognizes that there are both false gods on earth and true gods in the heavens, but out of them all, there is only one God for us. Some may doubt that Paul was referring to true gods when he said “in heaven” and “(as there be gods many and lords many,). Yet, among true Bible believers, who can believe that there are false gods in heaven? So, when Paul talks of gods in heaven, he can only be talking of true Gods. Here, the Apostle Paul speaking polytheistically about the gods in heaven but monotheistically when he says that only one of them is our God.

      April 11, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Psalms 8:4-5 teaches that man is “a little lower than the gods.” The King James Version (and most translations) give it as “lower than the angels,” but the word used in the Hebrew is gods. The Hebrew term “elohim”,or “gods” is used to describe human judges in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9. Here authorized servants of God are called “gods.” Exodus 7:1 says that Moses was to be “god to Pharaoh.” Note that these are with a small “g” recognizing the pre-eminence of the God we worship.

      And Paul says in Romans 8:14-18: “For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;”

      And again Christ said to John the Revelator: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelations 3:21)

      John says: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 3:2-3)

      In the first verses of the Bible, in the Hebrew, Moses refers to the head God who called forth the other gods. It is not rendered this way in English translations. Yet, scholars have noted that throughout the Bible there is a theme of a head God who presides over the other gods. Thus, the head God says "Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness" ( Genesis 1:26-27, emphasis added)

      And “let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:5-7, emphasis added).

      April 11, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      "The existence of other gods is not denied in the first commandment of the decalog itself; in fact it presupposes their existence and forbids the Israelites to worship them." (Roland de Vaux, The Early History of Israel, Philadelphia, 1968, p 463)

      “Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?” (Ex. 15:11)

      “For the Lord your God is God of gods, and the Lord of lords, a great God…
      “Thou shalt fear the Lord they God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
      “He is thy praise, and he is thy God…” (Deu. 11:17, 20-21)

      “God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” (Ps. 82:1) Or as it is rendered in the NRSV translation “God has taken His place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.”

      “Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.” (Ps. 86:8)

      “For thou, Lord, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.” (Ps. 97:9)

      “For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.” (Ps. 135:5)

      “O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth forever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth forever.” (Ps. 136: 2-3)

      “For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God.” (Deut. 10:17)

      April 11, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Note that the early Christian fathers, the early Bishops and respected orthodox theologians, were good Mormons. Note what they taught:

      “God became man that man might become God.” (St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinis in: Philip Barlow, doctoral candidate in American Religious History at Harvard: Unorthodox Orthodoxy: The Idea of Deification in Christian History, Sunstone, Vol 8, no 5, pp 13-16))

      “He became what we are, in order that we might be what he is.” (Maximus in Ibid)
      “I may become God to the same extent as he became man.” (Gregory of Nazianus in Ibid)
      “The Holy Spirit aids man in being made God.” (Basil of Ceasarea in Ibid)

      “Flee with all in your power from being man and make haste to become gods.” (Origin in Ibid)
      Speaking of the soul which seeks to become pure Clement of Alexandria said: “The soul, receiving the Lord’s power, studies to become a god.” (Clement in Ibid)

      IRENAEUS
      It has been claimed by some that this doctrine of becoming gods is an altogether pagan doctrine that blasphemes the majesty of God. Not all Christians have thought so, however. Irenaeus [A.D. 130-200], Bishop of Lyons, was instructed by Polycarp. Polycarp was personally instructed by the apostle John. Irenaeus became a prominent bishop in the Church in the second century. He became the most important Christian theologian of his time, and is considered orthodox by mainstream Christianity. Yet he taught:

      “If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.)
      Irenaeus also taught: “We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.” (Ibid, also in (Bettenson, H., The Early Christian Fathers, [London: Oxford University Press, 1956,] p. 94.)

      Also: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.” (Irenaeus in Henry Betteson, The Early Christian Fathers, London: Oxford University Press, 1956, p 106)

      And: “While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord.” (Irenaeus in Henry Betteson, The Early Christian Fathers, London: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 94)

      And :”How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one’s duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God.” (Ibid, pp. 95-96)

      Indeed, Saint Irenaeus had more to say on the subject of deification:

      “Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, ‘I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.’ For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that, what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11)

      “But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God.” (Ibid)

      April 11, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      TERTULLIAN
      “If, indeed, you follow those who did not at the time endure the Lord when showing Himself to be the Son of God, because they would not believe Him to be the Lord, then call to mind along with them the passage where it is written, ‘I have said, Ye are gods, and ye are children of the Most High;’ and again, ‘God standeth in the congregation of the gods:’ in order that, if the scripture has not been afraid to designate as gods human beings, who have become sons of God by faith , you may be sure that the same scripture has with greater propriety conferred the name of the Lord on the true and one-only Son of God.” (Tertullian, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids Michigan: Wm.B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1885, vol. 3, p. 608)

      ORIGEN
      Like other early Church Fathers, Origen, [A.D. 185-254], also teaches the same Biblical doctrine, of Genesis 1:1, that there is a head god who is “Lord of gods”, Origin teaches that there is a distinction to be made between “the God” and others who are also “gods.”

      “Everything which, without being ‘God-in-himself’ is deified by participation in his godhead, should strictly be called ‘God,’ not ‘the God.’ The ‘firstborn of all creation,.’ Since he by being ‘with God’ first gathered godhood to himself, is therefore in every way more honored than others besides himself, who are ‘gods’ of whom God is the God, as it is said, ‘God the Lord of gods spoke and called the world.’ For it was through his ministry that they became gods, since he drew divinity from God for them to be deified, and of his kindness generously shared it with them. God, then, is the true God, and those who through him are fashioned into gods are copies of the prototype.” (Ibid p. 324)

      He went on to teach: “The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God.” (Ibid)

      Origen claimed that God “will be ‘all’ in each individual in this way: when all which any rational understanding, cleansed from the dregs of every sort of vice, and with every cloud of wickedness completely swept away, can either feel, or understand, or think, will be wholly God….” (Origen, De Principiis 3:6:3, in Roberts and Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, p. 345.)

      AUGUSTINE
      Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said:
      “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. ‘For he has given them power to become the sons of God’ [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” (Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2 Augustine insists that such individuals are gods by grace rather than by nature, but they are gods nevertheless.)

      ST. MAXIMUS
      “We find it in early Orthodox tradition as well, for the ‘chief idea of St. Maximus [who died in 662 A.D.] as of all of Eastern theology, [was] the idea of deification” (S.L. Epifanovic as quoted by Jaroslav Pelikan, The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600-1700). The Christian Tradition, vol. 2, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1974, p. 10, as cited by Peterson and Ricks, p. 79).

      April 11, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      As Paul taught in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, there is a duality to Christianity. Paul taught that there are many gods but only one that we worship, only one that is our God. Mormons hold to the doctrine of Paul and Jesus and not necessarily the doctrine of the “various Christian churches” because they no longer teach what Jesus and Paul taught. We do.

      To paraphrase Origin’s thoughts in the words of Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie: "There is and can only be one who is supreme, who is the head and to whom all others are subject". Becoming like God is not saying we will ever be equal to Him, frankly we won't and can't He, and only He, will forever be worshipped by us.”

      Joseph Smith once said “Mormons are the only ones who believe in the Bible. Everyone else believes in their interpretation of the Bible.” That probably sounds like a bold and even arrogant statement and I can understand how it would be offensive to some people. It is not our intention to offend people. However, if you look at real facts, real history, what the Bible and the early Christians really say (only some of which I have pointed out above) it turns out that Joseph is right. People regularly can’t see what the Bible really says because it is filtered through the lens of later orthodoxy and the extra-Biblical creeds. The divergence of Mormon theology from the theology of other Christians lies in the fact that Christianity has been modified and changed over the centuries and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is original Christianity restored to the earth. So, of course, there are differences. But I think Christians down through the ages have done the best they can without current revelation and have done remarkably well in many cases. It is, in a way, strange, that they criticize us for believing original Christianity. Seems to me that they would want to do the same instead of preferring the later creeds and counsels over the earlier version of Christianity.

      If Athanasius, Augustine, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Cyril, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Clement of Alexandria Jerome, Terfullian, even Augustin, and others, including C.S. Lewis in modern days, can teach the doctrine of deification, not to mention that Jesus Himself taught it as well as Paul and John and yet they are still accepted as orthodox Christians, why are Latter-day Saints said to be non-Christian for the same belief? The further back in time you go, especially when you get back before the creeds, the more Mormon-like the Christian doctrines become. Some of our doctrines are clearly at odds with mainstream churches of today, but that’s not because Joseph Smith was making up ludicrous doctrine. Long lost but true doctrines were restored through him as a divinely authorized prophet.

      And if popular Christian Orthodoxy continues to hold to the current tradition of later ideas and creeds, then what are they to do with the teachings of the Early Christians, the apostles, and even Jesus Himself who did not teach the creeds? If Mormons are wrong and not Christian than so were the early Christians who taught the same things that Mormons are teaching. If Mormons are not Christian for these beliefs then this makes the Apostles and even Jesus Himself not Christian. Which Christians are right; the later Christians or the Early Christians? Who is right, Jesus, Paul, John, the Psalmist, and the early Christian fathers, or Christians who believe traditions developed centuries after Christ and the Apostles?

      April 11, 2012 at 7:55 pm |
  14. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things .

    April 11, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Jesus

      Prayer doesn’t not change anything; you are so full of crap and lies. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs! ~,~ . .

      April 11, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • Ron B

      You must be one of those "christians" who:

      10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

      9 – You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from a rib, which means we are all inbred from 2 people.

      8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in the "father, son, holy ghost" base of your so called religion.

      7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

      6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life like a zombie, and then ascended into the sky.

      5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

      4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs - though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

      3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

      2 – You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

      1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian. ....

      April 11, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
    • nothanksimdriving123

      Re: prayer changes everything. If god is all-powerful and all-knowing, then s/he already knows what you want and need, so why pray? If s/he has a master plan for us all, then s/he's already decided what you are going to get, so why pray? If god is not all-powerful or needs reminders, then s/he is not very godlike and prayer is pointless. The only possible value of prayer is to help the self-esteem of the praying person.

      April 11, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • Carl

      Atheism is bad for "other living things"? Are you currently under the impression that plants and insects are religious?

      April 11, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • Yumpin' Yupiter

      Carl, "Are you currently under the impression that plants and insects are religious?"

      Of course they are. They have the praying mantis, the holy cross frog, the crown of thorns starfish (which "God" REALLY likes, 'cause he regenerates amputated limbs for them) the passion flower and the bleeding heart plant... just to name a few.

      April 11, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
  15. Bofusabode

    Why or Why do some believe that an abnormal chosen lifestyle will ever be fully accepted. Never ever will be-

    April 11, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • roadrunner2

      sounds like Bofusabode has some skeletons in his/her "closet"

      April 11, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
    • Primewonk

      "abnormal chosen lifestyle"

      This shows that you are one of those folks who thinks gays choose to be gay. Over the past 15 years or so on these interwebz, folks like you have posted that gays choose to be gay hundreds of thousands of times. And in the past 15 years or so on these intertubz, we have asked the folks like you to post the citations to the peer-reviewed scientific research that supports your contention that gays choose to be gay, and thus by corollary, that we straights choose to be straight.

      We have gone so far as to post the citations to hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific research showing that se.xual orientation is a biological multivariate based in genetics, hormonal baths in utero, neuronal plasticity, neuroanatomy, etc.

      And sadly, after all these years, and these tens of thousands of requests, not a single solitary one of you have ever posted a single solitary citation from actual science sources that supports your contention. Not once. Ever.

      I guess the big question is – why? Why do you cretins keep posting this, but refuse to support it will actual evidence?

      April 11, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Never" is a long time to be predicting stuff

      April 11, 2012 at 4:14 pm |
    • InterestedAmerican

      "Abnormal chosen lifestyle" Ironic you should say that because that's how I describe intolerant people who throw out judgements and then hide behind religious beliefs. Who's to say what is normal and what is abnormal? Who's to say who is normal and who is abnormal? Certainly not the likes of you or me.

      April 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
  16. JuneCleaversBeaver

    Does this mean he gets to have multiple husbands?

    April 11, 2012 at 11:32 am |
  17. myweightinwords

    Any religion that does not change and grow will eventually fade and die.

    Change is slow, sometimes monolithic even, but necessary if the religion hopes to continue to draw followers and keep the ones it has.

    April 11, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • MIKE

      So what does this say for MITT ROMNEY???

      April 11, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • Bofusabode

      Well then the abnormal chosen lifestyle crowd had better be ready to fight the muslims. Because where the cult of Islam has taken over, the abnormal crowd has vanished--

      April 11, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
  18. BD76

    I was raised Mormon and was very active until college. The church gave me a very good foundation of self esteem, integrity, faith and more. I appreciate the support the church gave me during a hard time and I have faith in most of its teachings...but I stopped going to church because I disagreed strongly with anti-gay teachings and I am a big supporter of the right for gay marriage. They teach that God is a loving Heavenly Father, and having been raised that he is such, I can't see that he would cast out his children because they are gay. I am glad that BYU is not being so strict as to consider gay feelings as a violation of the honor code....but I really don't see how they seperate feelings and actions. If you are gay, you are gay whether you act on it or not.

    April 11, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • Richard

      You've only got one side of the coin, hot dog. The student ALSO said, "it feels like neither community accepts you completely". Neither means both GAY and religious communities. How about considering the social issue as a whole instead of bashing religion as the hole UR.

      April 11, 2012 at 11:01 am |
  19. odinsgranny88

    Its a bum rap

    April 11, 2012 at 10:06 am |
  20. RG

    I'm Mormon, straight, and a huge advocate for gay rights. So happy to read this article and see that change, as slow as it may be, is happening. Catholics, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhist, or whatever religion you follow, love one another!

    April 11, 2012 at 8:37 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      We've actually found our Mormon friends to be some of the most tolerant christians. Most of the ones we know do not judge and thus do not merit judgement from us. They have always been happy to sit down and listen openly, even if they don't totally agree with our disbelief. We can only hope that other christians take this lead from people like you.

      April 11, 2012 at 10:11 am |
    • just sayin

      Mormons are not Christians

      April 11, 2012 at 12:30 pm |
    • Kimmy

      In reply to just sayin, Mormons are Christians! A christian is someone who believes and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior. We Mormons do that!

      April 11, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
    • HYPOCRITE HATER

      So, in other words, you pick and choose what the hell you want to believe, depending on your current whim.

      Nice to know that faith is whatever passing fancy strikes you at any given particular moment.

      April 11, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
    • Dwight Rogers

      Some Mormon beliefs are at odds with other Christians because Mormons believe in Biblical and Original Christianity and many other Christians believe in a form of Christianity that was developed later.

      If Christianity means “historic orthodox mainstream Christianity” of today then I would agree that Mormonism is not historic Christianity; at least not in every doctrine. Although Mormons have much in common with other Christians Mormons also believe differently than historic Christians in some key areas. But the real questions to ask are 1) What is original Christianity? 2) Is mainstream Christianity of today the same as original Christianity?

      “Trinity’ is a word not used in the Bible. Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. In 325 AD a council of about 300 (out of 1800 serving) bishops gathered in Nicea at the request of the pagan Emperor Constantine and formulated a creed that tried to reconcile the Biblical statements that there three persons called “God” and yet there was “one” God. They then forced all Christians to accept their solution as “gospel”, with varying results. Theological debates and other councils continued to tweak the concept for centuries.

      Mormons are not supposed to be Christian because we have some doctrinal differences with other Christian groups of today. The foundation for the beliefs of these other groups is the creeds of the 4th. 5th, and 6th centuries and so on.

      It is claimed that Mormons are wrong because they believe in extra-Biblical revelation and scripture. Yet much of Christianity believes in extra-Biblical creeds and councils formulated centuries after the time of Christ and the Apostles. Most of the wording formulations in these creeds cannot be found in the Bible. This is often the excuse used to exclude members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) from being Christian. It is well known to historians that Christian doctrine changed over time and across different Christian groups.

      The Bible is then viewed through the lens of these creeds causing certain interpretations to be favored and other biblical teachings to be minimized or ignored. Interestingly, if you look at the doctrines of the early church fathers before the creeds, they are very Mormon-like. In a number of doctrinal areas the early Christians were good Mormons and would be rejected as non-Christian by many Christians of today.

      In many areas of belief (probably the majority of areas) Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) believe the same as most other Christians. It is true that in some limited areas – some very critical ones – the beliefs of Mormons differ from other Christians. Likewise there are some major areas of difference between Catholics and Protestants and likewise between one Protestant group and the next. Every denomination could make the claim that the other groups are not Christian because those other beliefs differ from their own.

      Joseph Smith taught “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 121).

      The central belief of Mormons is that Christ came into the world as the Son of God. He healed the sick, caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear, and restored life to the dead. He commissioned twelve Apostles to whom he gave authority. He suffered in Gethsemane, died on the cross, and was resurrected and will come again. He, and only He, provides the means for us to be washed clean in his blood from our sins, which sins we can never correct on our own or through our own works. If that is not Christian I don’t know what is. Christ never taught the need to believe in anything like the creeds. Those came later.

      Mormon belief is very much like the teachings of the earlier Christians – before the creeds – and also matches the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. The further back in time you go the more Mormon-like Christian doctrine becomes. Mormons are often portrayed as non-Christian when we don’t believe in the later extra-Biblical creedal formulations.

      The early Christians did not have the extra-Biblical creeds of later centuries. Were they then not Christian? The ontological debates and the wording formations of later centuries are not found in the words of Jesus or the words of the Apostles or in the words of the pre-creedal Christians . There is not a word about a one substance god in the Bible or in the early beliefs. If believing in the creeds is necessary to be Christian then that makes the earlier Christians not Christian – it even makes Christ not Christian.

      One other interesting aspect of this topic: Some Christians claim that we must get our beliefs and doctrines from the Bible only. It is claimed that God finished his work and no longer has prophets or gives revelation. They say the Mormons are wrong to have prophets and extra scripture. Consider this: If the Bible is sufficient and no post-Biblical revelation is allowed, then the post-Biblical creeds are not necessary and are not authorized by God. If God authorized the creeds then why aren’t they in the Bible? How could they be from God if the Bible is complete, if God has finished his work, and if there is no more revelation? They are extra-Biblical and no one should be held to them as a requirement to be Christian. It is so ironic that Mormons are criticized for having extra-Biblical revelation by people who themselves believe in extra-Biblical creeds. Once one puts on the glasses of the creeds then everything in the Bible is filtered to match the creeds.

      Mormons believe in original Christianity restored to the earth through revelation to new prophets. Nowhere does the Bible say that God has finished his work, that the cannon of scripture is closed. It seems ironic to us that we Mormons are accused of adding to the Bible by people who have done just that – added creeds and metaphysical definitions to the Bible. We advocate for believing original Christianity.

      April 11, 2012 at 7:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Just lyin: "Mormons are not Christians."

      If by Christians, you mean just like you, good!

      April 11, 2012 at 9:22 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.