With 'Monumental' Kirk Cameron emerges as Christian activist
Kirk Cameron released a documentary in theatres on Friday titled "Monumental."
April 13th, 2012
05:02 PM ET

With 'Monumental' Kirk Cameron emerges as Christian activist

By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN)– Kirk Cameron could have joined the ranks of former TV heartthrobs who rode off into the sunset, reappearing only for the occasional reunion show or career-reviving role in a TV drama. Think Ricky Schroder or Scott Baio.

But Cameron, known to millions of Americans as Mike Seaver on the hit ‘80s-era show “Growing Pains,” is carving out a new niche for himself, as an unlikely voice of politically conservative American evangelicals.

Cameron has a new documentary on the faith of America’s founders that arrives in theaters on Friday. He is neither a historian nor theologian, but the film, “Monumental,” shows him consumed with Christianity - and with rage over what he says has been the systematic removal of religion’s role from American history.

The film opens with Cameron sitting on an Adirondack chair in his backyard. Looking straight and silently into the camera, a voice-over of his own voice alerts viewers that the world around him is going to hell.

“There is something seriously sick in the soul of our country,” the voice-over says.

“Don’t worry about the fact the world is going to hell in a hand basket - just get out of the hand basket,” his friends tell him. But Cameron explains that he refuses to listen and instead sets out to make “Monumental: In Search of America’s National Treasure,” which investigates the debate over America’s soul.

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Over the last decade, Cameron has become the wholesome, boyish face of Christian cinema. He starred in “Left Behind,” the low-budget film based on the wildly popular Christian book series.

More recently, he played the lead role in “Fireproof,” a breakout film that shocked the Hollywood establishment when it debuted in the top 10 in its first week and wound up taking in an estimated $33 million. The film was made by Sherwood Baptist Church in Albany, Georgia, for just over $500,000.

Cameron was one of the only professional actors in the film; the rest were congregants from the church.

Along with such popular movies as Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ,” ”Fireproof” showed the potential for a new market in explicitly Christian films. In the last two years, crossover movies like “Soul Surfer” and “Courageous” have had parallel advertising campaigns targeting churches.

The movement has propelled Cameron back into the spotlight.

“Monumental” is Cameron’s baby. He is its executive producer and its star.

“When I survey the landscape and turn on the news, all signs are saying panic,” Cameron recently said.

“Instead of listening to everyone play the blame game … maybe the best place to look for solutions was to talk to the men and women who built this country 400 years ago and laid the foundations that resulted in a nation that has experienced more blessing and prosperity and strength than any other nation in the world,” he said.

“That launched me on this journey to retrace the Pilgrims and find the sacred sauce.”

In the film, Cameron retraces the Pilgrims’ steps from England to Holland to the New World. He talked to scholars and historians, digging in on the faith of the Founding Fathers.

What he found, he said, is a forgotten historical narrative not taught in schools.

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Those first principles, as Cameron sees them, are spelled out in a scene depicting a large stone monument near Massachusetts’ Plymouth Rock, the spot memorialized as the place the Pilgrims landed.

“Faith in God … produces character, character will produce courage, courage to face the challenges of the day,” Cameron says in the movie, riffing off the Pilgrims’ story.

Cameron teamed with NCM Fathom, a company that streams live events to movie theaters nationwide, like live performances of the Metropolitan Opera and boxing matches, to offer a sneak peek at the film a couple of weekends ago. That debut was emceed by Cameron, featured live performances by Christian bands and was beamed out live on more than 600 screens, grossing $1.23 million, according to NCM and Cameron's publicist.

Kirk Cameron stares at an inscription at the Jefferson Memorial in Washington.

The new documentary has faced criticism for its inclusion of self-taught evangelical Christian historian David Barton.

A favorite among evangelicals for his Christian-centric views of the Founding Fathers and his vast collection of historical documents, Barton is heavily featured in the film.

“The reason I went to go see David Barton is because he owns the largest collection of original source documents from the founding era that I can get my hands on and that you can go and see,” Cameron said.

“When you look at those documents it becomes incredibly clear there has been a lot of cherry picking of the evidence done to support a very particular worldview, and that’s the worldview our children are learning in school and it’s not the full and complete historical record because it doesn’t reflect the faith of our Founding Fathers,” the actor said.

In a version of the film made available for screening and in clips posted online, Barton shows Cameron the “Thompson Hot Press Bible,” which Barton said was printed in 1798 and was funded by 12 signers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, including John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

“They wanted the word of God out to every family,” Barton says in the clip. “If these guys happen to be Christians it makes a lot of sense.”

Barton then picks up a small rare Bible known as the “Aitken Bible.” “The Bible of the Revolution was printed by the Congress of the United States. So Congress printed the first English Language version of the Bible,” Barton said. He goes on to say the Congress said, “This was a neat edition of the Bible for use in our schools.”

Warren Throckmorton, an associate professor of psychology at Grove City College, a private Christian school in Pennsylvania, has criticized Barton’s version of history and Cameron’s films.

About much of the history featured in the film, Throckmorton said, “That’s just not what happened.”

After seeing clips of the documentary, Throckmorton fact-checked some parts.

He said he found that the “Thompson Hot Press Bible” was not funded in total by 12 Founders. Instead, he said, the Bible was funded by a subscription base of 1,200 customers that included 12 Founding Fathers. “The printers funded that Bible, the Founders didn’t fund it. It was a business venture for them.”

As for the quote Barton attributed to Congress about putting the Bible in schools, it actually came from Robert Aitken’s petition to Congress. Aitken was a colonial printer. The Journals of Congress from 1782 shows Aitken completed the Bible on his own and sought the blessing of Congress.

The record shows a report from two congressional chaplains who examined the work, which they praised.

Congress passed a resolution to recommend “this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.” That resolution did not mention it being put in schools.

“David Barton gets the facts wrong when it comes to these two Bibles,” Throckmorton said. “The facts of the case are stretched and embellished to create a narrative that is misleading.”

Cameron defended Barton’s work. “No one is more guilty of cherry picking evidence than those who bow to the god of political correctness, especially historians,” Cameron said. “Everyone is going to select the information that is important to their thesis. If you’re bent on being politically correct, it’s very easy to fall into that trap.”

Throckmorton noted that he and other critics of Barton’s work hail from Christian colleges and universities.

Early controversy surrounding Cameron's comments on social issues have given the film more media coverage than Cameron could have imagined for a small-budget documentary.

Appearing on CNN’s Piers Morgan Tonight last month, Cameron fielded questions about abortion, gay marriage and what he would do if one of his six children came out to him as gay.

None of the topics appear in the film, but Cameron expressed views on same-sex marriage, abortion and homosexuality that are common among conservative evangelical Christians.

Cameron called homosexuality “unnatural,” adding, “I think that it's detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization."

His comments sparked outrage from gay rights groups like GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. The group led a campaign to counter Cameron’s comments with other 1980s TV stars and evangelicals on the other side of the theological spectrum.

GLAAD spotlighted a bevy of celebrities who chided Cameron for his positions on homosexuality, including a tweet from Rosanne Barr, who suggested Cameron was “an accomplice to murder with his hate speech.”

Cameron said his support for traditional marriage is rooted in faith and thinks it should inform policy decisions: “You either believe marriage and human sexuality are sacred or you do not.”

Cameron jokingly described his faith as “high octane” but said he considers himself part of the evangelical Christian tradition. He said he goes to a small nondenominational community church near his home in California, though his publicist later clarified that he is not a member of the church, whose name he would not disclose because of privacy and security concerns.

Cameron said he was caught off guard by the controversy around his comments.

“It is my goal to love everyone. I hate no one,” he said. “Regardless of their race, religion, their proclivities, the desire of their heart and how they want to live their life and the decisions that they make. I can even respect people’s decisions and lifestyle choices just as I hope they have the courtesy to respect my decisions and my choices.”

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church and state • Religious liberty

soundoff (2,339 Responses)
  1. Priest

    "They are called 'Growing Pains' Billy, just go sit on this ice pack for a while and they'll go away..."

    April 17, 2012 at 3:23 am |
  2. fredeferg

    The irony is that the once Grand Ol' Party of intellectuals like William F. Buckley has become little more than a small mob of ignorant bigots and Evangelical Taliban who will never accept Mitt Romney because of his Mormon faith. I guess you reap what you sow. I look forward to keeping Americans precious freedoms and liberties out of the grips of the Republicans.

    April 17, 2012 at 3:12 am |
    • fredeferg

      Translated , I look forward to keeping my version of precious freedoms and liberties out of the grips of the Republicans and destroying religious freedom so we can instill our own fascist beleifs on everyone else.

      April 17, 2012 at 3:34 am |
    • sam stone

      fredeferg: i agree totally. buckley did not care for these blowhards, even though he was quite religious himself

      April 17, 2012 at 3:36 am |
    • David Nelson

      I have never personally met any member of the GOP who liked William F Buckley, as a matter of fact I have never met anyone who told me they liked him. You will find plenty of people on television who admired him, which says to me, ignore television. William F Buckley was as much part of the eastern establishment as the people he railed against. Buckley was part of the old cadre of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (SMOM) that ran the CIA, FBI, etc. and would hardly represent any biblical christianity that I would recognize.

      April 19, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
  3. Ray Comfort

    Kirk blows me all the time. Hard.

    April 17, 2012 at 2:18 am |
    • Ray Comfort

      I also abuse little kids to. I like them yummie.!

      April 17, 2012 at 3:06 am |
    • sam stone

      Well, Ray, it is supposedly blessed to c-o-m-e in the name of the lord.

      April 17, 2012 at 3:10 am |
  4. jeff

    Nice job Kirk Cameron! Seriously nice job with your stand and new movie. Bravo! You know you hit a home run when the minions of satan attack!

    April 16, 2012 at 11:25 pm |
    • mandarax

      Wow, I've never been a minion of satan before. Crap, I better start playing my records backwards to see what messages await me.

      April 17, 2012 at 1:57 am |
    • mandarax

      HE'S RIGHT!!! I just checked out my old albums and my Ronnie James Dio album played backwards says "arise ye minions of the dark lord, and attack Kirk Cameron!" Dang, I think that means we were supposed to get him back in the Growing Pains days. We've got to get better organized...

      April 17, 2012 at 2:04 am |
    • sam stone

      Minion? I had always thought of myself more as a toady of Satan. Seriously, Jeff, what kind of pompous a$$ purports to know the mind of god?

      April 17, 2012 at 3:14 am |
  5. james

    Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction matt 7:13.Jesus said I am the way,the truth and the way,no man comes to the.Father except through me

    April 16, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • mandarax

      You'd better hope not. There are literally hundreds of religious sects that claim to be the one true way. If any one of them is correct, that means the others aren't, and the chances that you just happened to have been born into exactly the right one are pretty slim...

      April 16, 2012 at 10:26 pm |
    • Ashrakay

      "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."
      —Prophecy made to Albus Dumbledore by Sybill Trelawney

      April 16, 2012 at 10:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Just so. The fun dies are certain theirs is the "one true way" because their "one true way" SAID so.

      Guess what? So do a bunch of other gods and demons.

      April 16, 2012 at 10:30 pm |
    • Cq

      And why do you believe this?

      April 16, 2012 at 11:03 pm |
  6. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things. .

    April 16, 2012 at 8:30 pm |
  7. james

    You will be JUST SAYING on judgement day what was I thinking

    April 16, 2012 at 8:25 pm |
    • sam stone

      no judgement day, james. no heaven, no hell. just a carrot and stick to encourage or discourage human behavior. of course, i am certain that the pious practically wet themselves with glee at the thought of the unrepentent being tortured forever. the question is, what kind of sick ba$tard would do that to people? and what kind of subservient slave would want to spend eternity with such a ba$tard?

      April 17, 2012 at 6:11 am |
  8. Liz

    Just Sayin'.....

    Nearly every religion has the nebulous sorts of proofs you offer. (Ask, say, a Hari Krishna if you don't believe me.) BTW William Lane Craig wants his proofs back plstnx

    April 16, 2012 at 8:10 pm |
    • james

      There is a big difference between Christianity and.all other religions.Jesus Christ died on a cross for our sins and.arose.again on the third day.All other prophets and so called gods.are.dead.we.have a.living savior

      April 16, 2012 at 11:52 pm |
    • sam stone

      Wow, James, thanks for straightening that out. Now the world can get on with more important things

      April 17, 2012 at 3:18 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      James: Christianity is an overall term that includes Catholics and anyone under the heading of Protestant. Not all are deceived by bronze age sheep herder stories and not all are so weak minded that they can't think for themselves without the use of those stories. As much as some of the stories in the buybull may have some accuracy, they do not point to a god. Why do you believe?

      April 17, 2012 at 6:25 am |
    • David Nelson

      Hi james, I have a minor point of contention. You seem to imply it is impossible that God would ever use a prophet again. I just don't think that conclusion can be drawn. God, being God can decide to use a prophet if he so chooses. And he has made it clear they a prophet could be either male or female. ... and your sons and daughters shall prophecy... Dispensationalism has become so popular and in its current conformation it often claims that the dispensation that includes prophets has passed. Dispensational preiods seem to me the inventions of men, drawing imaginery lines where God has not put them. We need to be careful not to confuse the doctrines of men for directives of God. Well anyways, that is my viewpoint. Peace brother.

      April 19, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
  9. Ben

    You guys spend way to much time beating the crap out of Cameron, what he's saying isn't really a big deal. It's crazy how much hate people have over Christianity. Christianity current day is so not offensive most christians just want to have an opinion and people beat the living crap out of them for even speaking... Focus your hate towards a religion that actually is a threat to you, like Islam or something. They are the ones spreading real fear and violence around the world. Just sayin...

    April 16, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • just sayin

      Islam is not a direct threat to our freedoms right now. Evangelicals (Christian Taliban) are a direct threat to our freedom and The People.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
    • Al

      Kirk's brand of Christianity teaches intolerance. If you can't see that then you're not one of the groups they target, or you don 't have any empathy.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:45 pm |
    • Leo

      sayin, what freedoms are Christians not allowing you?

      April 16, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • just sayin

      Leo, very simple ... when they push their moral laws onto others. When their rules restrict others. Apply this test to propositions and laws being backed by Evangelicals.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
    • Leo

      There are two sides to the story, are not others pushing for immoralty? Which is worse?

      Again what freedoms?

      April 16, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • just sayin

      Leo, like I said...apply the test to the propositions and laws being backed (or have been backed) by Evangelicals. If you are honest with the test then it should be clear which props and laws are simply anti freedom.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:58 pm |
    • mandarax

      The threat is that these historical revisions are part of a larger goal rendering the US a "Christian nation," thus paving the way for further erosion of church-state separation.

      April 16, 2012 at 6:04 pm |
    • just sayin


      The threat is that these historical revisions are part of a larger goal rendering the US a "Christian nation," thus paving the way for further erosion of church-state separation.
      Interesting I cannot find the name Jesus in the Const i tution of Bill of Rights. We are a nation of Christians and other types, but not a Christian Nation. To push for is simply a power move from the Christian Taliban.

      April 16, 2012 at 6:18 pm |
    • Leo

      Get real, look at what the introduction of secular humanism introduced in the 50's – 60's has done to society as a whole. Look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now. Look at what the total disregard to moralty has done via TV and Music. What are we pumping into the Childrens heads?

      And you are worried about Christianity??

      April 16, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Get real, look at what the introduction of secular humanism introduced in the 50's – 60's has done to society as a whole. Look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now."

      The Christians that came to America killed more Indians than Hitler did Jews. They also stole the land from them. Sorry dude you humanism in the 50-60's probably saved us from a terrible history and Christians!

      April 16, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
    • Leo

      Take a good look at Atheist Socialism and Marxism...

      April 16, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
    • just sayin


      Get real, look at what the introduction of secular humanism introduced in the 50's – 60's has done to society as a whole. Look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now. Look at what the total disregard to moralty has done via TV and Music. What are we pumping into the Childrens heads?

      And you are worried about Christianity??

      I am confused aren't we are talking about a religious group imposing their God's Law on The People? Your post makes no sense on this subject unless you are justifying imposing the Christian Taliban onto The People because of your view of Secular Humanism???? I mean you walk outside in public and you see how the world has gone to hell in a hand basket. I am guessing we were at the same population numbers in the 1950's to now so this explains the growth in the prison population...not to mention the % of the prisoners that are Christian or Christian backgrounds. I don't suppose your perception is a bit skewed because of what you read and think to be The Truth?

      April 16, 2012 at 6:36 pm |
    • just sayin


      Take a good look at Atheist Socialism and Marxism...
      I did once...was not impressed...do not agree with socialism or Marxism.....Christianity/any religion is not the answer as well. Also I am not an Atheist.

      April 16, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
    • Abraham lincoln

      This just sayiin is a fake a liar and a fraud trying to deny the real just sayin freedom of speech. f-uck it

      April 16, 2012 at 6:59 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      And how is he doing this? Is the prostelythizing just sayin unable to post at all now? Is he being physically restrained by the just sayin that is critical of religious views? Would you say the same if their roles were reversed?

      April 16, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • mandarax

      "Get real, look at what the introduction of secular humanism introduced in the 50's – 60's has done to society as a whole. Look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now. Look at what the total disregard to moralty has done via TV and Music."

      Leo, that's the classic misunderstanding of correlation and causation. I can just as easily point out that the rise of fundamental Christianity occurred in the 1950s (it did), and "just look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now." I could just as easily say, ever since they added "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, "just look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now." That's when the Greatest Generation returned from WWII and "just look at the crime rates, murder, etc from what it was prior till now."

      I hope you get my point.

      April 16, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • just sayin

      "I hope you get my point."
      I don't think Leo will. Leo sees what he wants to see in support of his Christian Nation and Christ as the head of that nation.

      April 16, 2012 at 7:22 pm |
    • Liz

      Smehow i don't feel bad when the Christians get mocked. It's an inane, insane belief system. Sure, Christians can believe whatever they like. But they need to stop expecting a free pass in the marketplace of ideas. Sander another absurdist belief system all you like. But that's no defense of the absurdist system being skewered ATM. It's just more for later.

      April 16, 2012 at 8:04 pm |
    • Leo

      You know what funny is I actually don't disagree with you all that much on this. Christianity should be worried about itself and not judge others outside the Church, and by our actions we should draw others to what we believe.

      What we have on TV today would have been unacceptable when i was a kid, and we wonder why are kids killing? It is GIGO period, and if we really understood how important it is mantain some form of higher standards we would see a better world.

      April 16, 2012 at 8:31 pm |
    • mandarax

      Leo, you may be right to some extent, but don't blame all that on the "secular humanists." If you think it is the atheists that dictate the garbage that gets put on TV, you are a silly silly man. I would be willing to bet that the secular humanists are over-represented in the audience of PBS, and under-represented in the audience of Jersey Shore. I'd be willing to bet quite a bit, actually.

      April 16, 2012 at 8:38 pm |
    • geeky

      No, it's not Christian-bashing, it's calling out a hypocrite. KC is as gay as the day is long, and it's only a matter of time before he's outed.

      April 16, 2012 at 10:20 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Leo, you're such a dimwit. Fundies want to remove the rights women have under law. They want to dictate who may and may not marry.

      Really, bumble foot, grow a brain cell, would you? You're an embarrassment.

      April 16, 2012 at 10:23 pm |
    • Cq

      In a democratic society wouldn't everyone have an equal stake in defining "immorality"? Why should only ultra-conservative, evangelical Christians get to define it for everyone?

      April 16, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
    • sam stone

      Al: Bigots don't mind bigotry unless it is directed at them

      April 17, 2012 at 3:19 am |
    • Al

      sam stone
      And bullies don't mind bullying unless it is directed at them as well.

      April 17, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • David Nelson

      There is this cartoon characature of conservative christianity being constructed. Most of it is just non-sense. I hear phrases like christian taliban and don't know whether to laugh or cry. The Taliban is a horrible oppressive regime and to imagine that christians are the same way is just not intellectually honest. I will tell you something. There are a few atheists I respect more than some christians. For instance, I had quite a lot of respect for Christopher Hitchens because he used his brain and was actually right about some things. Many christians take their cues from false teachers and therefore accept false doctrines without proper investigation. But the bigotry of comparing christians to the Taliban is really beyond intellectual laziness, it is cruel and dishonest.

      April 19, 2012 at 5:23 pm |
  10. manofgod

    Kirk has my support. He has a right to stand up for his faith. Anything GOD has called wrong cannot be changed. I have suffered with lust in my heart and it comes out in masturbation. This is wrong! I have turned to Christ for help in this area and all areas. HE is the only way to salvation all other ways are deceptions of Satan.

    April 16, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Then get out there and start killing all the people your book tells you to kill. Start owning slaves in the proper manner, and all the myriad of other things in that book you think is "holy".

      April 16, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
    • jimtanker

      So EVERYTHING that your god calls wrong in the old testament is still wrong?

      April 16, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
    • J.W

      I think self pleasure was once considered wrong because it didn't allow the seed to be used for baby-making. The world population is now large enough that this is no longer an issue.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Oh yeah, because the Old Testament works just great as a book of etiquette.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • Al

      if you're implying that non-Christians have to be evil then you are off your rocker, buddy!

      April 16, 2012 at 5:41 pm |
    • sam stone

      manofgod: now it is coming out in spiritural m-a-s-t-u-r-b-a-t-i-o-n

      April 17, 2012 at 3:21 am |
  11. BoldGeorge

    For those in here trashing Kirk, and worse yet, trashing my God and my Savior, you are the exact kind that Jesus on the cross referred to when He said, "...Father, forgive them for they know not what they do (and say and write)." Because, honestly you really DON'T know what you are saying when you blaspheme the name of my Lord. Seriously, if you knew what is in store for you, you would most definitely NOT be saying (and writing) all these things, even if you didn't care to be a believer.

    I don't know if you are aware of this but it wasn't Christians who attacked us on 9-11. Yet you respect Muslims more than you respect your fellow christian patriots. Or did they sort of make their point that horrible day and it is why you've learned not to go against them in anyway? Not that I would want you to.

    April 16, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • just sayin

      That is special. Your faith is in man. Some of us dont put our faith in man or writings of dead men. Some of us simply cannot respect a God who is unable to speak or write on their behalf. Actually, all of the Gods written about by man could not. I would say f the Holy Ghost as much as I would say F fairies and Santa. F Allah and Muslims as well. There do you feel better about your persecution complex? Your god or gods of the men's imaginations are not worthy of faith or belief. More power to you and your delusion brother. God Bless

      April 16, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      This isn't the 16th century George. It is no longer possible to silence those who believe in reason, and critical thought with threats of heresy and blasphemy.

      If your lord and savior is above reproach, and wants me to believe so, then he needs to contact me personally. He's had 57 years to do so.

      I therefore state, without fear of retribution, that I don't believe he lives on as a spirit, but is just a pile of bones somewhere in present-day Israel.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest


      I would claim the moral high ground against the god of the bible any day. If you think the bible is 100% true, then your god is a schizophrenic jacka.ss. Put out the threats of eternal torture all you want George, but if there is such thing as a loving god (highly doubtful) then he/she/it/whatever wouldn't give a shi.t what a person believes.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
    • just sayin

      People who "believe" soley on feeling and their biased perception are a danger to society.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • BoldGeorge

      @ just sayin – "People who "believe" soley on feeling and their biased perception are a danger to society."

      I agree. That was proven on 9-11.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Okay, I guess I missed your main point here, BoldGeorge - not that Christianity is all that wonderful, but that Islam is really, really bad. Okey dokey. Now I see where you're coming from.

      However from my perspective (a believer in neither dogma), both of these religions seem pretty equal in their tendency to make outrageous, unsupported claims about the universe, then persecute people who don't believe them.

      And if you think Islam is worse because one of their many atrocities happened rather recently, I'll have to ask that you crack open a history book and see that Christians have been busy for several hundred years, doing just what you despise Muslim's for.

      Of course, non believers have also committed atrocities all through the ages as well. So my point is, you can't say your religion is the best because all those other guys commit atrocities, when basically, you're religion can claim no moral high ground on that issue whatsoever.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • BoldGeorge

      @ EnjaySea – "...you can't say your religion is the best..."

      Who said my religion is the best? Let me go as far as to say that I believe the world is what it is because people are religious. Religion can't save anyone. And I certainly wouldn't push, insist, much less persecute anyone to try to get them to believe what I believe. I can't save anyone. All I can do is tell others (and you) the Bible teaches how you can be sure where you will end up after your brief stay in this life. For me, following Christ and trusting God with my life is not a religion, but a way of living. For me, there are no rituals involved, nor do I have to do anything drastic to myself nor to others to prove I'm right, nor is there anything I can do in it of myself to get me there. This can only be accomplished stating with a desire to change your life around, even if you think it is going well for you. That's all.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:05 pm |
    • just sayin

      "This can only be accomplished stating with a desire to change your life around"
      Yes George, I can agree. That day was the day my eyes were openned and saw the Gods for what they were.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:17 pm |
    • Abraham lincoln

      The just sayin posts are by someone who by stealing a name is trying to deny the real just sayin freedom of speech... f-uck them

      April 16, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
    • just sayin

      Sorry but I am the real deal. I posted therefore I am. Don't you believe me or have faith in me? God Bless

      April 16, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
    • Abraham lincoln

      Just sayin = aththiest,deny the right of free speech to the real just sayin. UnAmerican f-uck you

      April 16, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Okay BoldGeorge, I guess you can restate what you said in your original post to dilute it a little bit, and make it sound less severe. But if you go back and read your post, it was pretty harsh, from my point of view.

      You made the common Christian threat of torture for those who don't believe, and I quote you: "Because, honestly you really DON'T know what you are saying when you blaspheme the name of my Lord. Seriously, if you knew what is in store for you, you would most definitely NOT be saying (and writing) all these things, even if you didn't care to be a believer."

      Unless by "what is in store for me", you were referring to a paid vacation to someplace tropical. But I hardly think so. I'll have to say, your follow-up post bascially made the same threat, but maybe in the positive direction.

      Oh by the way, I don't believe you or your bible that there is such a thing as heaven or hell. Just wanted to be clear on that, so your threats didn't actually concern me any. I'm only discussing them from an academic point of view.

      And you did state a preference for Christianity and the ever-so-annoying assertion that only Christians are patriotic, by saying the following: "I don't know if you are aware of this but it wasn't Christians who attacked us on 9-11. Yet you respect Muslims more than you respect your fellow christian patriots."

      But that's okay. I applaud you for toning it down a bit. Much easier to read and digest when you're not threatening people with eternal torture, or calling people unpatriotic because they disagree with you. Bravo!

      April 16, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • sam stone

      Gee, Georgie, you sure seem to put a lot of faith in translated, edited Iron Age hearsay

      April 16, 2012 at 6:04 pm |
    • Berk

      I respect patriots, and I don't care if they're Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, gay, straight, men, women, blue, green, or poka-doted. Folks who want to go against the Const.itution, however, and put any religious law in place are not patriots. Where's the freedom in setting up a theocracy? Do you think the Iranians are free? Set up an Christian theocracy and which Christianity gets to set the rules, the evangelicals or the Catholics? Then we have Ireland c. 1960s. Who would be stupid enough to want that?

      April 16, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
  12. David Nelson

    Cameron is unfortunately a pusher of the unbiblical jesuit invented Pre-tribulation rapture. He seems like a decent guy but is ultimately helping the Vatican whether he knows it or not.

    April 16, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • just sayin

      He is quite delusional and of a unsound mind.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
    • Cq

      Jesuits are Catholic, and Catholics don't believe in any of that rapture nonsense.

      April 16, 2012 at 11:12 pm |
    • sam stone

      A decent guy? He seems like a arrogant dweeb

      April 17, 2012 at 3:23 am |
    • David Nelson

      Cq, Catholics may not believe it but the Jesuit order was created to destroy Protestantism and the historicist model of prophecy rightly being used by Protestants. Google "Francisco Ribera" and "Pre-tribulation rapture'. It took hundreds of years before it took root in the Protestant Churches, sadly it has become very popular among them now.

      April 19, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
  13. maxwellsmarts

    I believe the founding fathers were trying to help us understand a higher power's influence by stating "one nation UNDER God". Here is what I have to say. believeinbelief.wordpress.com.

    April 16, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • mandarax

      "One nation under God" has nothing to do with the founding fathers. It was added to the Pledge of Allegiance during the McArthy era to exclude communists. This is a perfect Kirk-Cameron-like example of why people who don't know anything about history should not be allowed to interpret history for the public.

      April 16, 2012 at 3:07 pm |
    • Nonimus

      You realize, of course, that the "founding fathers" didn't have anything to do why the phrase "one nation under God," right?

      "...under God" wasn't added until c. 1954.

      April 16, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Thought I'd give you one. : )

      April 16, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
      • maxwellsmarts


        I completely was erroneous about who wrote the pledge. thanks for the correction.

        April 17, 2012 at 11:33 am |
    • mandarax

      Thanks for sharing!

      April 16, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Sadly, this isn't the first time this fundiot has posted this exact same thing. Previously, just like this time, the error of his ways was pointed out to him. The actual facts were given to him. Yet, this numbnutts chooses to purposefully be ignorant.

      April 16, 2012 at 3:59 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Apparently this maxwellsmarts fellow is very young, and doesn't yet grasp the depth of time that has passed between the 1770's and the 1950's. He probably just thinks it's all "the olden days".

      And the Christians wonder why we are opposed to shoving god-talk into the realm of the government. It just serves to further confuse gentlemen such as maxwell into thinking that this isn't a secular nation.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Fair enough. Thanks.

      April 17, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
    • Nonimus

      maxwellsmarts not maswellsmarts, sorry.

      April 17, 2012 at 2:01 pm |
  14. HawaiiGuest

    What an idiotic person. Cameron has absolutely no credentials to have this "film" taken seriously. Anyone who believes that a single person would deserve to be tortured for all eternity for any reason has lost some intrinsic part of their humanity and morals. The god of the bible (if true) is a complete di.ck, and I would even go so far to say that I have a more moral stance than that supposed all-loving (yea right) being.

    April 16, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
    • David Nelson

      The idea that God would torure people forever is an invention of the Dark Ages when the Vatican controlled pretty much everything. Heck they even banned the bible for fear that common people would expose the Vatican's lies and abuses. Unfortunately, the Reformation stopped short of correcting all of the errors and abuses. Unfortunately Cameron has bought some of them.

      April 16, 2012 at 3:54 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest


      The thing is, the New testament canon was almost universally accepted by the 300s, then was officially accepting in the 600s. The writings of hell within the gospels and revelation were already there.

      April 16, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
    • Cq

      David Nelson
      The Church discouraged private interpretation of the Bible because the average person can invent any number of gross readings justifying any kind of abusive behavior and, when protestantism lifted this restriction, they proved the Vatican's point.

      April 16, 2012 at 11:17 pm |
    • David Nelson

      HawaiiGuest, I am not saying Hellfire is unbiblical, I am saying it has been grossly distorted. For instance, it is said that the wicked shall be as stubble under the feet of the righteous in the bible. No one would deny this is in the bible. Will the bottoms of the feet of the righteous be burning for all eternity? I have never heard anyone argue this. Sodom was burned with evelasting unquenchable fire. Is Sodom still burning? Of course not. The effect of the fire is everlasting and the fire burned itself out when the city was consumed. Jesus tells us in John 3:16 our choices are everlasting life or persihing. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." There is not a third choice of burning forever. God so loves his creation that he would never torture his created children forever. Satan would and he is hard at work making the world believe that God has his character. Sadly many have bought it.

      April 19, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
    • David Nelson

      The idea that the wicked get to live forever is an invention of the devil as well.. I once heard a member of AC/DC said he wanted to go to hell because that is where wild parties would be. But Angus Young is not going to party forever in hell, he is going to perish away when he dies and his sleep will be interupted by the resurrection of the wicked, before his final destruction. He will simply cease to exist, or in other words PERISH. Satan's first lie was saying that sin wouldn't lead to death, but to equality with God in knowledge. But God says the wages of sin is death, not eternal life that includes torture.

      April 19, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
  15. Vic Stench


    April 16, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
  16. BoldGeorge

    Mr. Cameron is right on! And not only is he right on, he is biblically right on, which is what really matters anyway. Eternity is what matters, not living in this shell which is a spec of sand in time.

    April 16, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • just sayin

      More power to your wishful thinking in the words of men.

      April 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • sam stone

      Cameron is a bigot with a bible up his a$$

      April 16, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • TR6

      “Eternity is what matters, not living in this shell which is a spec of sand in time”

      I will gladly take fully living in this spec of time rather than in your heaven, spending an eternity in church telling god how great he is. Also since the entry price to your heaven is believe in god it’s going to be filled with child buggering priests, televangelists, mega church pastors, popes and 95% of all convicted felons

      April 16, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
  17. just sayin

    Kirk Cameron, a talented man and an excellent human being. God bless

    April 16, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Nonimus

      I think it is more Ray Comfort, but anyone who ascribes to the Banana concept of evidence for God, or the Croco-duck concept, is neither talented (in thinking) nor excellent.

      April 16, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • mandarax

      He has absolutely ludicrous beliefs concerning bananas.

      April 16, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • mandarax

      @Nonimus – You've beaten me to it, again! Cheers.

      April 16, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • sam stone

      Yeah, hide your bigotry behind a bible and the salvation slaves will follow you to the end of the earth

      April 16, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
  18. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things .

    April 16, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • Jesus

      Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!!!!!!

      April 16, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • Linann

      How do you know? Have you ever tried to think for yourself?

      April 16, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • just sayin

      The probability of the fake Jesus thinking for itself is at best remote. God bless

      April 16, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • just sayin

      Yes it do. God bless

      April 16, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • Jesus

      "The probability of the fake Jesus thinking for itself is at best remote."

      Actually I am trying to get the Christians to use their brain that they can only use to make up lies in desperation, more proof my post is correct. LOL!

      April 16, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
  19. Rainer Braendlein

    Bigotry tortures mankind

    All false religions are bigoted. The members of false religions, at least those of them, which take seriously their religion, love only members of their own religion or people, which they want to convert.

    This nasty behaviour you find among Catholics, Muslims, Anabaptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, false Protestants, etc..

    The problem is that the false religions see Grace as their PROPERTY. As soon as you have joined their religion you participate in infinite Grace, which dispenses you from correct behaviour in daily life.

    Let us take the Islam as an example:

    Sura Al-Fatiha (Sura 1):

    1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
    2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
    3 The Beneficent, the Merciful.
    4 Master of the Day of Judgment,
    5 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
    6 Show us the straight path,
    7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

    The first Sura sounds even Christian (Allah is called merciful), but let us consider that this is not the only Sura of the Koran.

    The whole context of the Koran makes it clear that the first Sura is related only to Muslim believers. Allah is merciful and gracious only towards Muslims or people, which want to convert to Islam.

    This bigotry could be endured, if Islam would mean love and righteousness in daily life (a true Christian shall be full of love and righteousness to everybody independent from belief, color, nationality, status, etc. in daily life). Regretably a good Muslim is yet a Muslim, which keeps the 5 pillars of Islam, independent from practical love and righteousness:

    – Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
    – Establishment of the daily prayers;
    – Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
    – Self-purification through fasting; and
    – The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

    The 5 pillars of Islam have not much to do with rightousness, excepted almsgiving (whereby, I would like to know, if a Muslim would give alms to a poor Christian, or if he would regard his poverty as a curse of Allah?).

    The mean trick of all these is that you become a participant of grace yet by keeping the 5 pillars, independent from your daily behaviour. You may think like this (if you are a Muslim): I have tried to convert my workmate to Islam, but he refuses. He is now under the wrath of Allah, who will throw him into hell finally. Why should I love this nasty disbeliever, which is not loved by Allah? Why should I give him any good hints and advices? Why should I talk with him? Why should I be concerned about his security? Why should I help him, if he is in need? Allah doesn't love this infidel individual, hence I am allowed to hate him too.

    The same att-itude have got Catholics, Anabaptist, Mormons, etc..

    They keep certain rituals of their believe and by that they are participants of infinite Grace, which allows them to treat their infidel fellow human beings, which they regard as disbelievers, very ill. They feel not obliged to show love and rightousness to their fellow human beings.

    How works a true Christian, in contrast:

    A Christian knows that at Judgement Day he will get judget according to his works. Only if he has lived a life of love and rightousness he will finally enter heaven. A Christian loves everybody, independent form belief, color, nationality, status, etc.. He loves people, even if they are no Christians and even if they don't want to become Christians. A true Christian doesn't regard God's Grace as his property, but shares it with his fellow human beings. The Christian sees always himself as that one, who is required by God to behave correctly. A Christian oversees the sins of his fellow human beings and behaves friendly and kindly despite their sins (of course, if people harm one another, the Christian has to intervene and to stop the wrongdoer).

    Yet a true Christians will hold on to the truth and confess it to everybody:

    The gospel: God, the Father, delivered God, the Son, for our sins and raised him from the dead for our justification.

    The man, who believes that and gets baptized (or remembers his infant baptism), will receive the power of the Holy Spirit to love his fellow human beings and to behave righteous

    April 16, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • momoya

      Here we see that Rainer is most concerned about the bigotry found in his faith and the weight of numerous objections to his way of belief because he starts out by accusing religions of bigotry, and he continues and concludes with a variety of nonsense that "weights" his opinions unfairly..

      April 16, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • sam stone

      Religion tortures mankind

      April 16, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Root post by 'Rainer Braendlein' is another instance of the No True Scotsmen fallacy.


      April 16, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • Linann

      You should try Wicca, we enbrace all!!! Blessed Be!!!

      April 16, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
    • Primewonk

      " All false religions are bigoted."

      All religions are false There.. Fixed your opening for you.

      April 16, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Why bother?


      April 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
    • Cq

      Why do you get to define what "true" religion is? The Muslims you love to pick on could just as easily pass judgment on your beliefs. Same goes for any other religious group. Your argument holds zero weight.

      April 16, 2012 at 11:24 pm |
  20. Nonimus

    It is depressing when the decline of society is hastened by those proclaiming the decline of society. It is even more depressing when the very tools for preventing such decline, namely education and knowledge, are perverted and twisted in such a way as to claim prevention of the very thing they are causing, namely misinformation and blind belief.
    These "films" are prime examples of using tools against themselves,

    using history, or pseudo-history a la Barton, to cloud or distort history:
    "Congress passed a resolution to recommend 'this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.' That resolution did not mention it being put in schools."

    ... or using pseudo-science to cloud and distort science, as does Intelligent Design.
    ""...ID aspires to 'change the ground rules' of science and lead defense expert Professor Behe admitted that his broadened definition of science, which encompasses ID, would also embrace astrology. Moreover, defense expert Professor Minnich acknowledged that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules of science have to be broadened to allow consideration of supernatural forces."
    (Kitzmiller decision, Judge Jones, as quoted on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behe )

    April 16, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • False Dichotomy

      Good post. I especially appreciate that first paragraph. Too true.

      April 16, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
    • momoya

      Christians have no evidence for their belief which means that they rely on their emotions to tell them when something "feels right" to attribute to god or his plan.. Because their faith is centered in their emotions, they lash out emotionally whenever the argument cannot be won by logic.. Subconsciously, they internalize the accusation and then project it out onto the other side.. Thus, when the argument obviously leads to god's sadism, they ignore the argument in favor of accusing the atheist of being mean and sadistic in tone.. If the argument leads to god's obvious stupidity, they ignore the argument in favor of accusing the atheist of being stupid.. You can almost always tell the effect an argument is having on the god believer by what accusations he most rants about.

      April 16, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
    • just sayin

      Some evidence Christians have
      An empty tomb, debated and discounted by Judaism since the first century A.D.
      Eye witness testimony of those who followed and knew Jesus (Apostles)
      Eye witness testimony of those who followed and didn't know Jesus (Gnostics)
      At least 20 texts and references beyond the Holy Bible
      The prophecies and consistencies of the Holy Scriptures directing all mankind to the savior and ending at Jesus.
      The wonder of creation with the multiple impossible circ-umstances that allow life as we know it to exist.
      The increased intensity of the opposition
      All the imitations and false religions
      The millions of people over thousands of years who have met God
      Those among the millions who have evidenced the Truth in their lives, called by some saints.
      The breath of life and richness of prayer
      The increase of knowledge and the gifts God has given mankind
      The blood of the martyrs
      The ability to have faith, hope and love
      God bless

      April 16, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @just sayin,
      "Some evidence Christians have
      An empty tomb, debated and discounted by Judaism since the first century A.D."
      What empty tomb?

      "Eye witness testimony of those who followed and knew Jesus (Apostles)"
      What testimony? You can show that the witnesses actually wrote (or dictated) the testmony?

      "Eye witness testimony of those who followed and didn't know Jesus (Gnostics)"
      Really, who?

      "At least 20 texts and references beyond the Holy Bible"
      20 texts? corroborating what? Surely not the resurrection of Christ?

      "The prophecies and consistencies of the Holy Scriptures directing all mankind to the savior and ending at Jesus."
      You mean the same prophecies that show up in the same book? I'm not impressed, even if it is true.

      "The wonder of creation with the multiple impossible circ-umstances that allow life as we know it to exist."
      Impossible? How so? and show your work for those of us who are a little slower, thanks.

      "The increased intensity of the opposition"
      Increased opposition as evidence of truth? Hate to become a Godwin statistic, but does that mean you think the most opposed man in all history, Hitler, was in fact correct?

      ... etc. (I'll look at these other "evidences" if needed, but hope the previous ones will do.)

      April 16, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • momoya

      @Just sayin'

      You have no evidence, as you clearly understand.. Read back over your list very carefully and consider it as if it was evidence AGAINST your current belief and you will see why it is that none of that evidence is valid.. You can do it!! I have faith in you.

      April 16, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • just sayin

      I am still waiting for myself to provide "actual" evidence and fact. So far I provide assumption. God Bless

      April 16, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • mandarax

      Just Sayin, your beliefs are based on faith. You are clearly not accustomed to evaluating things in terms of evidence, which is why when you attempt to present evidence you don't understand why it is so weak. Why try to play the evidence game at all? It just undermines your credibility. Why not just honestly proclaim your faith, if you must?

      April 16, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
    • just sayin

      I truly do not understand "faith" and why Christians must have "faith". God Bless

      April 16, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • Nonimus

      explicitly not addressed to Just Sayin',

      Why... why.... why did I respond?

      Remember... just say NOthing!

      April 16, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Trolls are pathetic miscreants. It doesn't matter which side of the aisle you sit on – if you are trolling these or any other boards, threads, forums, etc. – knock this crap off, grow a set, pull up your big boy or big girl panties, and stop it.

      It isn't cute, or cleaver, or funny. It's stupid, it's ignorant, and it's just freaking rude.

      April 16, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • just sayin

      Primework, I have to disagree with you buddy. God Bless

      April 16, 2012 at 5:45 pm |
    • Abraham lincoln

      This just sayin is a lying sack of sh-it f-uck it.

      April 16, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
    • Cq

      You're right, they do what "feels right", thinking this is what Jesus would do while some of the time it's what they want to do really. Meanwhile, several of the characters here on this board like to accuse nonbelievers of having no set moral code, and doing what we want to do. Ironic, isn't it?

      April 16, 2012 at 11:34 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.