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April 21st, 2012
04:39 PM ET
Watergate figure, Christian leader Chuck Colson diesBy the CNN Wire Staff (CNN) - Chuck Colson, a Watergate-era "hatchet man" for President Richard Nixon who became an influential evangelical leader after serving time in prison, died Saturday afternoon, according to his website. He was 80. Colson suffered a brain hemorrhage in late March. Colson was the first Nixon aide to be convicted of Watergate-related charges in the 1972 scandal. After a short prison sentence, he reinvented himself as a Christian leader and founded Prison Fellowship, which calls itself "the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners and their families," with a presence in 113 countries. According to his official biography, Colson "admits he was guilty of political 'dirty tricks" and willing to do almost anything for the cause of his president and his party." But as he prepared to leave prison at the end of his sentence, he promised fellow inmates that he would not forget them or his experience there, his biography says. In 1976 he founded Prison Fellowship, which provides support for inmates in the form of in-prison Bible studies, mentoring programs and support for the children of prisoners. Colson also hosted a daily radio commentary called "BreakPoint," which aired on stations nationwide.
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Prayer really changes things
One pair of hands working to solve a problem does more good than 10 million pairs of hands clasped in prayer.
There is no valid evidence that any god has ever answered any prayer. Put on some courage for a change, get past your sky fairy myths, get off your fat butt, and help someone solve a problem. If there's even a god and she's a good god, she'll appreciate that more than you constantly whining to her to solve your problems for you, you lazy wimp.
God has borne witness to the power of prayer in the life and testimony of His servant Chuck Colson. A life renewed and transformed that touched the lives of millions, especially those in prison. In as much as you have done this to the least of these you have done it unto me, said by Jesus, lived by Mr. Colson. God bless
God told me himself the Colson was his witness. God's voice is amazing to hear. Next time I will be sure to get a recording of it. God Bless
I have to say that, it my experience, when it comes to complete stupidy, there are few demographics that can compete with the "born-again" Christians. Your average Christian is of average (or, at worst, at little below average) intelligence, but the "born again" sect really are super-stupid. I am sorry to be so blunt but, have you ever spoken at any length with one of them?
Colin,,,,,
Like I wrote to Tom,Tom (who BTW I think is a girlie person),,,,Does your "brain yard" know anything about The Fractals of Cosmologies? Do you even understand the basic similarities between stellar structures and cellular structures? Who can fathom inner space Time and outward space Times when all we see and measure things with is with earth-based Time?
Pipe Moron, if you ever exhibited an ounce of intelligence, it would convince me that miracles do occur.
Colin, funny how we have so many really smart guys like you that are so brave when you are typing on a far away computer.
Tell me when you spoke to those born agains did you tell them how stupid you thought they were or were you too much of a coward to say it to their faces? I will bank on Coward!!
And YOU'RE just SUCH a hero, aren't you, you phony little dweeb?
Really, as if you had any balls.
Kind of funny that you say the born again type Christians because the Bible says that if your not born again your not going to heaven. So technically every single christian is born again!!!! (if there a true christian at least)
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
For someone who supposedly doesn't like christians you sure like to argue with them. WHATS THE POINT!!!!! We actually have hope!!! We actually believe in something! You are just living a pointless life if your an atheist. HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE!!!
Colin, you are over-generalizing. Being a "born-again christian" is a convenient label that does nothing to show the actual IQ of the christian so described.
It is a delusional state of mind. Intelligence has little to do with it. False information = false results. Processing capability only makes a difference as a subset of the problem. It is so similar to being on an addictive hallucinogenic drug that many of the same effects are seen in the victims.
There are some intelligent and articulate religious believers out there. Some of them are "born again" types.
If someone were to prove to you that all of what you thought you knew of physics was wrong and completely made up and that we are all actually living in a "Matrix" computer system, you would see that your IQ did not mean nearly as much as you thought it did just as long as you were given false information and programmed to reason things out according to a certain way.
But I know you are not that stupid, so I'm guessing you're just frustrated with the religious trolls who are like blind turds in this blog.
Think of them as being in a sub-set of the Matrix you enjoy, where their personal programming distorts their perceptions and their circular schizoid efforts to think clearly will never break them out of that sub-matrix until they are willing to seek otherwise.
Oh, Rebel, DO tell me how pointless my life is! Go ahead and describe my life in detail, since you think you know all about it. I can wait.
I'd like to know a little more of this "hope". I've seen so many elderly folks who rarely, if ever, missed a Sunday in church, volunteered at the church and schools and donated more money than many of them could have honestly afforded. If this "hope" is so great, why are the majority of them "scared to death" of death? Religion sounds -so- comforting!
BTW, what "hope" am I supposed to have, assuming I go to church and put money in the priest's fund, or the minister's pockets? I'm supposed to believe their invented stories, and listen as they talk about how to live a pious life, while the priest is molesting an altar boy and the minister is running off with his secretary for an afternoon at the motel?
Francis Sellers Collins (born April 14, 1950), is an American physician-geneticist, noted for his discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project (HGP). He currently serves as Director of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Prior to being appointed Director, he founded and was president of the BioLogos Foundation. Collins has written a book about his Christian faith, and Pope Benedict XVI appointed Francis Collins to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.[1] – wiki
Colin, your post implies that you personally have met every single Christian in the world to come to your conclusion.
You sir, are the moron.
Yes, Chad, we know. He let his delusions get in the way of being a scientist.
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
Richard Kaiser, you are the PERFECT example of a religious nut who would have been burned at the stake or stoned to death in any theocratic society because of your esoteric (and frankly goofy) theological views. You enjoy the right not just to hold these views, but promote them precisely because you live in a SECULAR state.
@HeavenSent Colin plainly said "in his experience". @Chad, the Riemann of the famous Riemann hypothesis was a devout Lutheran and Kurt Goedel, the greatest metamathematician of all time, did not belong to any church, but not only believed in god, but in a personal god. It's easy to see that the fall of the once rigid social pressure to profess faith, more and more high end academics are openly atheist or simply indifferent to the whole matter. But there have always been and I suspect will always continue to be certifiable geniuses who do indeed believe in some god or other. I do wish that non-believers would face reality on this issue.
Truly, it's a hoot that the born-agains are all verklempt over Chuckie's passing. What a bunch of boneheads. Do you morons really think that had the Watergate break-in gone undetected that Chuckles would have "found Christ"? What kind of special stupid are you?
You have the brain of a shrimp!
Yet you're responding to my every post. What's that say about your mental acu men, witless?
Hi Tom Tom. Looks like you have the dip-sh.its in check tonight.
Oh, hardly. I'm just amusing myself. It's Saturday night; who needs to exert any effort? The morons hang themselves on their own retards.
How do you know that "Heaven became brighter" when a convicted felon died, Incontinent Liar? Ever seen any proof of a 'heaven'? How do you gauge its 'brightness'? In wattage? Lumens?
Really, you people are so friggin' stupid.
You radiate too much joy and happiness! What is the secret ingredient in your life???
NOT!!!
How come you're so bereft of a social life you have nothing to do on a Saturday night but troll these boards, weenie?
If I am trolling then what are you doing Mister?
And why is it you are so lame you have to change screen names every five minutes?
I'm female, moron. Any more idiotic questions?
Look who is actually trolling here calling itself a SON? *rollseyes*
hmm, what could it possibly be:
Woman trapped in a Man's body?
Man trapped in a woman's body?
Look who's impersonating semen.
Do you live in a rubber? Are you milky-white?
Why would you call yourself by such a name?
Do you think HeavenSent is an angel?
Really, muttonhead, is this your first time on a message board? A virgin, are you?
Friggin stupid,,,,? Does your "brain yard" know anything about The Fractals of Cosmologies? Do you even understand the basic similarities between stellar structures and cellular structures? Who can fathom inner space Time and outward space Times when all we see and measure things with is with earth-based Time?
For every single post of mine , I see multiple responses from the numbskull. Does your brain reboot every two seconds??
If I'm so stupid, why are you compelled to respond to my posts, How Cum?
Nothing has change ... such hostility in one person who professes to be happily married.
Oh, please, HS. You're the most hateful person here. And YOU aren't married.
One more neo-con, ex-con bites the dust.
Too bad he didn't take Rush with him.
Too bad he didn't take Incontinent Wee-wee Pants, too. Then heaven could be wet as well as bright.
Anyone here know why Homeland Security ordered 450 million rounds of .40 cal hollow point ammo? And 175 million rounds of .223? Whatever could they use all this for?
You DO realize that the USCG is under DHS, don't you?
Since all this country seems to manufacture lately is war, I guess you shouldn't complain. Manufacturing jobs are necessary, despite Reagan's rhetoric back in the 80s.
Does the Coast Guard plan on shooting everyone in America-more than once?
Ever been to a firing range for drills, Keith? Ever been on a cutter? The USCG is no longer the lighthouse and buoy service. Who do you think is the point agency on interdiction on the Gulf and at every port? Hint: it's not the DEA.
Coasties are notoriously bad shots.
That WAS funny, Eric.
AGuest9
What does being at the range have to do with anything? What do I care unless I can get my hands on the spent brass(hopefully LC)? 450,000,000 rounds of .40 cal hollow points? Why punch paper targets with hollow points?
Oh, yeah. Firepower for Jeebus. You're such a hypocrite, Keith.
Where did you get this info, Keith? At godlikeproductions? LOL. USCG Sig P-229s in .40 S&W and probably already use between 6-8 million rounds a year – this isn't far-fetched. You're going to practice with what you use for live-fire. There is a war on, remember?
Not that you can comprehend the Scripture Tom, but heregoes:
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
In Viet Nam, Americans shot 50,000 rounds per kill (it's actually higher, as that does not consider bombs, grenades, etc.). In Afghanistan and Iraq, it was up to 250,000. As such, that is enough ammo for 2,400 kills.
Money well spent. Thanks W.
Oh, I comprehend it just fine, Keef. You're just a gun nut who uses scripture to excuse your lust for blood.
Colson-R.I.P! You were a ray of hope to the incarcerated and their chilldren.
From the Bahamas,,,,,, ,,,,,, ,.,.
The "incarcerated" of today's Timeline are not like those of yesteryears Time-period! Futhermore, our enriched folks who do not give most of their wealth back to those who are yet poor aren't worthy of being saved from hell's kitchens! The doweries of the souls lay with the Creator's Books and will not be opened until it's Time! Spiritual richness surpasses worldly riches!
The families of this worldly enriched will be the beggars within their heavens dreamt! Those of the very poorest of hearts will be the Kings and Queens of the once enriched peoples' heavens! Ya'll can hold onto this world's treasures all one wants! As for me and my soul, I choose to be what God will want of me to now and forever to be! I know not in much of this world but I know well that the Kingdom Domains of God lay upon and within and inside all that which we call Life! I am no more ashamed of the living arrangement I find myself in! I am Christs and Christ is but the redeemer of my soul!
Repentance and belief in Jesus Christ as Savior can get the worst of sinners to heaven. But if you don't repent, you end up like the atheist hero Hitchens-who continues to burn as we blog. His arrogance is costing him bigtime.
And yours is costing you your sanity. Get therapy, dimwit.
I'd rather be considered insane and be saved than be "sane" and lost like you, Tom.
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever."
1 John 2:15-17
Amen.
HS, Not that this is relevant to the story, but have you ever listened to trunews.com? Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday's broadcasts are rather enlightening.
Lost? I have a Garmin. I've got GPS. I'm never lost. You, on the other hand, are always lost, since you've lost your mind, Keith.
It's a slow night, Tom. Prothero won't let anyone comment on his funeral story-think I'll turn in. Who talks about a funeral-of a youngster nonetheless? Prothero is one sick dude.
Trunews? A "Christian News Network"? Yeah, I'll bet that's REALLY 'enlightening'.
As dogsh!te.
Skunk smells its own hole first Keef. You stink of stupidity.
HeavenSent,,,,,,,,,,,, ,.,
Man-made-churches are Not God-made-churches! Know this well and believe the Truth that any Life-Form is of the Family of God's Buildings! We are His Buildings and He, God and God's Kinds and His kindred inhabit our body-like Buildings!
1Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building
Tom all you do is argue with Christians! Whats the POINT!!! Your an atheist there is no point in anything!!!!!!!!! So why get out of bed in the morning!!!!
So, Rebel, you only get up in the morning and get out of bed because you're looking forward to the end of your life and some imaginary heaven?
How tragic is that?
Tom
I'd rather believe in a made up heaven then this crap you have!!!!
Chuck Colson was an awesome man,changed and redeemed because of salvation's plan! He turned away from a wrong way of life and the change was real and with his new life in Christ,helped so many millions of people. Holding on to another persons past mistakes is juvinile at best and now that he's gone....Just let it go!!! He is with his Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ and no amount of nastiness spoken against him can change that fact!!! He will be greatly missed, no question about that but he is now safe and secure in Jesus' arms right where he belongs!! I am so glad he made it home!!! New body,new life, wonderful fellowship with Jesus!!!...No wonder you all envy him!!!!
There is exactly as much evidence that Colson is now suffering Allah's wrath as there is that "he is now safe and secure in Jesus' arms."
Envy? Wait, let me stop laughing so I can respond . . . okay . . . no, still laughing, hold on a minute. There we go. No, gotta laugh some more.
Okay, yeah, you nailed it: I envy the dead guy for being dead. Brilliant logic there buddy. I envy the dead scumbag who perverted his high office and betrayed his country, then Jesused his way back into fame and fortune – Colson got very rich on his scam.
“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Nahms,,,,,,,
They are right don't you know? One can fall by the waysides of the trash collectors' dung heeps should one make such embolden and frivilous accosting amalgums! The rich will have their days of judgement upon the proverbial hot seat! "What have you done for the very poorest since you have become enriched by otherly means?" will be asked. Did any rich person even give the proverbial 10% of their riches to the church of their choosing? God, forgive them not!
If you become a political pariah and are unemployable due to a felony record, just find jeebus and make more money than you ever did in politics.
After numerous CNN articles saying Colson was almost dead, Colson is finally dead. Might be like the SNL skit on Franco, a few more articles on how a fascist is still dead.
Plainy...any one can become a god fearing christ loving being, but if you think about it you become an atheist.
opps.. should be attached to plain ol dreamers post....
Let's see...all the people ole Chuck wronged might be burning in hell forever because they got the wrong religion, but ole Chuck is living it up in heaven because he decided to get Jeebuz before he died......Yea, I beleive that(SARCASM PLEASE)!
Top Ten Signs You're a Christian
10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 – You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 – You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.
ReplyReply AllMove...mls
10-I am in no way outraged when someone denies the existence of God. Instead, I feel sympathy for them.
9-I am not insulted or dehumanized when some scientists claim that people evolved from other life forms. I just believe they are wrong.
8-I don’t laugh at polytheist. I believe there is one God who has three parts or “persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
7-There is nothing to like about death and killing, now, or in history.
6- What about when angels came down and took human wives. KJV Genesis 6: 1-4
5- Don’t you at least find it interesting that while creation may or may not have taken 6 literal days, as we know them, the order of events is the same as what modern science claims? Keeping in mind that Moses is thought to have written Genesis over 3000 years ago. He must have had some real inside info.
4- I believe that anyone who has not had the opportunity to know Jesus would be considered no different than an innocent child in the eyes of God. Therefore, they will also enter his Kingdom.
3- The proof of Christianity for me is my personal spiritual experiences.
2-Actually you are just a little off. 0% of prayers outside the will of God are answered. 100% of prayers in the will of God are answered.
1-I would make no claims on my scholarly ability in a contest, but I will say, I know in whom I believe.
Thank you for your input Robert.
Amen.
Well Robert, that's great. Your delusion is complete and no amount of reality will get through. It is I who feel sorry for you.
Oh, I forgot,,,,,Amen.
Rest in peace, you dirty rat.
More religious regurgitation......ole Chuck was walking proof that the religious are truly delusional.
Prayer changes things
Well done good and faithful servant
One pair of hands working to solve a problem does more good than 10 million pairs of hands clasped in prayer.
There is no valid evidence that any god has ever answered any prayer. Put on some courage for a change, get past your sky fairy myths, get off your fat butt, and help someone solve a problem. If there's even a god and she's a good god, she'll appreciate that more than you constantly whining to her to solve your problems for you.
Chuck was walking proof of the transformative power of Jesus Christ.
Guffaw.
Ole UpChuck was a dirty crook and if there REALLY is any justice Ole Jeebuz is givin him the Cattle Prod. But,,,here's some reality.....Jeebuz is madeup and ole Chuck is just plain Ole Dead.
Hey Chad – did you ever entertain the idea that Mr. Colson's mid-life "conversion" was actually due to his conscience and the "transformative power" of the feeling of guilt (universal to humans unless they suffer from profound mental illness)? Both of those are "real" in the sense that their products can be observed and measured...Jesus Christ – not so much.
Hey, Chad, do you think Chuckie would have found Jeebus if he'd never been caught and convicted? Wanna bet?
Charles Colson made his peace with God some time before he was convicted by law. Read Born Again for an accurate accounting of Mr. Colsons conversion.
^here he is under username #37
There is no herbie
Oh, please. Do you really think Chucky didn't KNOW he's been caught red-handed? Moron.
Oh, yeah, and anything with the ti-tle Born Again" is guaranteed to be a crock of sh!t.
When Chuck Colson passed, one beam of light went out on earth and heaven became brighter. Tom,Tom ( if you are to be believed) you have never brightened anything or anywhere.
martog, when I read your post it reminded me of what a Christian posted last year ... when an atheist dies, they get all dressed up with no where to go.
How would YOU know, Incontinent Liar? You don't have a clue about me or anyone else, you buffoon. The fact that someone as deluded as you are disapproves of me is more reinforcement for my belief that I'm right and you're an imbecile.
As opposed to fundies, who don't dress up at all, as they've NEVER had anywhere to go. No one invites them.
When an atheist dies, they do the same thing you will do – decompose.
It cracks me up when HS demonstrates its complete stupidity. The word is "nowhere", you brain-dead peon.
HeavenSent :
"... when an atheist dies, they get all dressed up with no where to go."
I first heard that one about 40 years ago (you really are clueless, aren't you)
Here's another oldie for you:
When Christians (yeah, everyone) die they will be in their graves doing what Bach and Beethoven are doing - decomposing!
Do you picture HS as Miss Havesham? Still wearing her moth-eaten wedding gown and waiting for Jeebus to come and rescue her from the rats.
@Really-O? "Hey Chad – did you ever entertain the idea that Mr. Colson's mid-life "conversion" was actually due to his conscience and the "transformative power" of the feeling of guilt (universal to humans unless they suffer from profound mental illness)? Both of those are "real" in the sense that their products can be observed and measured...Jesus Christ – not so much."
=>you would have to explain then:
1. why Chuck attributed his transformation to Jesus
2. why he spent the rest of his life preaching Jesus resurrected
I dont doubt that there are some people that radically change their lives on their own, however in Chuck's case (in and the case of billions of other people over the past 2000 years), I cant see how you could make that case.
and, please note that you are appealing to a "universal to humans sense of guilt", where do you think that comes from?
There is no such thing as "universal guilt" if there is no universal morality ,and there is no universal morality with out God.
😉
So because he said so, it must be true? What are you, 14?
Why don't you answer the question, Chard: Do you think that had the Watergate scandal not occurred Chucklehead would have become a holy seer?
Come on, get a clue, Chard.
I love it when you make claims that you can't substantiate. "There is no universal guilt without universal morality. There is no universal morality without God."
You've repeated this canard many times, Chard, and never have you been able to provide a shred of proof it's true. You make the same idiotic circular arguments because you don't have anything else.
@Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son "Why don't you answer the question, Chard: Do you think that had the Watergate scandal not occurred Chucklehead would have become a holy seer?"
=>Honestly I just didnt see the question.
Your post are so filled with hate and vitriol I usually dont bother reading them..
I have no idea if Chuck would have become a Christian had he not gotten caught. For many of us it takes a major crisis/event in our lives for God to get through to us, for others it isnt like that at all.
You don't bother reading them because you can't answer the questions I ask, Chard.
Colson was a lying, cheating, power-hungry politician. Had he continued his career in politics and never been caught out as the criminal he was, he'd never have bothered with the Bible or preaching. He only resorted to religion because he couldn't do anything else with the rest of his sorry life.
Once known as President Nixon's "hatchet man," Colson gained notoriety at the height of the Watergate affair for being named as one of the Watergate Seven, and pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice for attempting to defame Pentagon Papers defendant Daniel Ellsberg.[3] He became a Christian in 1973, and the following year served seven months in the federal Maxwell Prison in Alabama as the first member of the Nixon administration to be incarcerated for Watergate-related charges.[1]
Colson's mid-life conversion to Christianity sparked a radical life change that lasted the remainder of his life. He began anew with a dual focus on both the non-profit ministry he founded after his time behind bars, Prison Fellowship, and to Christian worldview teaching and training. Colson was also a public speaker and the author of more than 30 books.[1] He was founder and chairman of The Chuck Colson Center for Christian Worldview, which is "a research, study, and networking center for growing in a Christian worldview", and includes Colson's daily radio commentary, BreakPoint, heard on more than 1,400 outlets across the United States.[4][5]
Colson received 15 honorary doctorates, and in 1993 was awarded the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion, the world's largest annual award (over US$1 million) in the field of religion, given to a person who "has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension". He donated this prize to further the work of Prison Fellowship, as he did all his speaking fees and royalties. In 2008, he was awarded the Presidential Citizens Medal by President George W. Bush wiki
@Chad – "you would have to explain then..."
Will do –
1. "why Chuck attributed his transformation to Jesus"
– We humans attribute action to innumerable agents...Jesus, Brahma, nationalism, tribalism, racism, etc. Take your pick...none are proof of the validity of the proposed agent.
2. "why he spent the rest of his life preaching Jesus resurrected"
– See number one.
Regarding: "universal morality with out God"
Nope (you redundant knucklehead). It is true there is no "universal morality" – some morality is based on cultural norms (therefore not "universal"); some members of the human community are mentally ill and therefore have limitations with regard to their personal "morality"; I could go on, but it's not necessary. However, most members of the human community DO share a "common morality" with concern to the suffering of others (especially those geographically and physically close to them) and reciprocity...this is part of being "human" – as weak, slow, hairless mammals without claws or teeth that can serve as effective weapons, we would not have survived as a species if the majority of our interactions were adversarial rather than cooperative. So, you're correct when you state there is no universal morality without god, but there is a morality that is infused by evolution into the majority of the members of the human community. We would not be here if that was not true.
@Chad. With regard to your copy & paste....STOP! You've been schooled about this so many times one has to wonder about the state of your cognition when you continue. Use your intellect and ability to reason (if you have one) when presenting an argument. Quotes are nice as a rhetorical device and references with authority (hint: Wikipedia is not one) add weight to your argument, but your Gish-Gallop approach just makes you look lame and desperate.
...emoticons don't help either.
Second that, Really-O. Chard, posting something you found in print doesn't prove what you claim it does.
Really-O? "... feeling of guilt (universal to humans unless they suffer from profound mental illness)
@Chad "for there to be universal guilt, there has to be universal morality"
@Really-O? "... there is no "universal morality" – some morality is based on cultural norms (therefore not "universal")
lol
good luck digging out of that logical inconsistency (trying to build a case that guilt is universal yet that which you would feel guilty for is not. 🙂
It's funny, you can catch an atheist off guard many times appealing to principles that they know intrinsically are true, but cant be explained w/out God.
@Chad – "good luck digging out of that logical inconsistency"
Not a "logical inconsistency" by any means...I simply misspoke – most reasonable people would realize that "universal to humans unless they suffer from profound mental illness" doesn't actually mean "universal to ALL humans" – in fact, only someone who is dishonest or doesn't understand nuance (I believe I've leveled both of those assertions at you in the past) would draw that conclusion (you really should be tested for Asperger syndrome). While I've never claimed to be an "atheist", you haven't caught me "off guard" in any way...I'm not even sure you could catch a cold unless someone inserted the virus directly up your nostril.
@Really-O "With regard to your copy & paste....STOP"
I must confess that of all the atheist complaints I enjoy this most.. 🙂
Atheists hate when they post some emotional viewpoint, and you simply post from a source like wiki that clearly demonstrates that to be a fringe viewpoint.. They hate it because they dont want to have to argue against wiki, they want to argue feelings and emotions..
most of all, atheists hate an opponent that presents an argument and backs it up with data.. That simply is not the way they want to argue.
@Chad – "for there to be universal guilt, there has to be universal morality"
Nice try, and while it is in no way necessary, I will point out that "for there to be universal guilt, there has to be universal morality" is a false premise.
@Really-O " "for there to be universal guilt, there has to be universal morality" is a false premise."
Guilt is the state of being responsible for the commission of an offense.[1] It is also a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.[2] It is closely related to the concept of remorse.
Good luck demonstrating your statement to be accurate given the definitions of the words involved... 🙂
@Chad – "They hate it because they dont want to have to argue against wiki"
Sorry, no Chad..."we" hate it because it violates the rules of logical argument. If you made the effort to obtain some higher education you might actually understand.
@Chad – Regarding your definition of guilt.
No disagreement in definition. We only disagree with regard to the origin of guilt: I assert it is part of our evolved nature, without which we, as a species, would not have survived; you, on the other hand assert that it came from an unseen supernatural enti.ty. Reasonable readers are free to decide which is more likely.
@Chad – Regarding your definition of guilt.
No disagreement in definition. We only disagree with regard to the origin of guilt: I assert it is part of our evolved nature, without which we, as a species, would not have survived; you, on the other hand assert that it came from an unseen supernatural enti.ty. Reasonable readers are free to decide which is more likely.
...
...and, dam.n it Chad...you've sucked me in again! I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'm a junkie and your nonsense is my heroin.
Really-O? "..."we" hate it [the presentation of data to back up an argument] because violates the rules of logical argument
@Chad "interesting... have you notified the scientific community of this belief?
The best of experiments and logical arguments still need to rely upon effective presentation of data
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@Really-O? "..We only disagree with regard to the origin of guilt: I assert it is part of our evolved nature, without which we, as a species, would not have survived..."
@Guilt is the reaction to the breaking of a moral or law.
Without the moral or law, there is no guilt
you are asserting that morality evolved.. without a moral code, there is no such thing as guilt..
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@Really-o "...your nonsense is my heroin"
@Chad "it is widely held that the ad-hominem is the last resort for those that have nothing of intelligence to say...
what are your thoughts on that?
🙂
@Chad –
-'"we" hate it [the presentation of data to back up an argument] because violates the rules of logical argument'
...you blatantly re-stated and misstated my assertion. Dishonest...shame on you.
– "Without the moral or law, there is no guilt"
...this is an unsupported claim. Saying it's so, doesn't make it so.
-"your nonsense is my heroin" and "ad hominem"
...you'd be correct if my witticism was used against your argument, but it wasn't, it was a statement about you, as an individual, irrespective of you argument. What part of all of this don't you understand?
@Really-O? "...you'd be correct if my witticism was used against your argument, but it wasn't, it was a statement about you, as an individual, irrespective of you argument. What part of all of this don't you understand?"
the rest was already dealt with.. this was to good to pass up however.
if your "witticism" had been used against the argument, it wouldnt have been ad-hominem..
Making the statement about the individual irrespective of you argument is precisely the definition of an ad-hominem.
you had it exactly, perfectly wrong 🙂
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.[1] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy
but, now you know 🙂
Like all your posts, Chard, this one says: It is so because I say it is so and I believe it is so.
What a laugh you are.
@ Chad – regarding ad hominem and "you had it exactly, perfectly wrong"
Sorry Chad, but you are, once again, incorrect. If I say, "Disregard Chad's arguments in favor of the existence of god and the divinity of Jesus, and against Darwinian natural selection because he's an uneducated, ignorant, bible thumpin' moron", that is ad hominem. If, in contrast, I simply say, "Chad is an uneducated, ignorant, bible thumpin' moron", now that is simply a personal attack, not ad hominem. You might want to go back and reread your own post in which you as.sert ad hominem is "an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it" ("negate the truth of a claim" being key). You see, if you actually read all of your copy and pasting you might actually LEARN something. You truly are a knucklehead (not ad hominem, just an accurate personal attack). 🙂 – look, I used an emoticon...that makes me clever, huh?
"personal attack" and "ad hominem" are synonymous.
In fact, if you go to the wiki page for "personal attack" it immediately redirects to the ad-hominem page. 🙂
You might find some of the reasoning on why personal attacks are expressly forbidden there interesting..
Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks.
Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument, but can also involve pointing out true character flaws or actions that are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.
@Chad –
Argumentum ad hominem is a form of fallacious argument, not statement. An insult is not an argument.
I'm not sure whether you really are incapable of comprehension or are just grossly dishonest. From our interactions I believe both are true; however, it seems obvious enough at this point that you suffer from some form of cognitive deficit and, therefore, it would be unethical for me to continue engaging (and baiting) you for my own entertainment. Best of luck to you. Get some education.
LOL Chad, do you not even know what ad hominem is?!? You just got through proving to me that you had no idea what a false dichotomy was and now I find this.. ha
You appear to be surprised, momo.
Chad is a moron.
Proof of sorts that anyone can become a God-fearing Christ-loving humanist in angularisms of compartmentalizations in degraded sentencings!