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 An exhibit of Rodin's "The Thinker."
April 27th, 2012
04:01 PM ET
Study: Analytic thinking can decrease religious beliefBy Becky Perlow, CNN (CNN) - When was the last time you sat down and questioned your decision to believe in God? According to a new study, that simple act could decrease your religious conviction – even if you’re a devout believer. In the study, published Friday in the journal Science, researchers from Canada’s University of British Columbia used subtle stimuli to encourage analytical thinking. Results from the study found that analytical thinking could decrease religious belief. “Religious belief is intuitive - and analytical thinking can undermine intuitive thinking,” said Ara Norenzayan, co-author of the study. “So when people are encouraged to think analytically, it can block intuitive thinking.” CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories Some of the more than 650 Canadian and American participants in the study were shown images of artwork that encouraged analytic thinking, while another group was shown images that were not intended to produce such thinking. One of the images used to trigger analytic thinking was of Rodin’s statue “The Thinker.” A previous study showed that such images improved performance on tests that indicate analytic thinking. In addition to the artwork images, the religion study used other stimuli to promote analytical thinking. After exposure to such stimuli, researchers gauged participants’ religious beliefs through a series of questions. Subjects who had performed analytical tasks were more likely to experience a decrease in religious belief than those who were not involved in such tasks. That included devout believers. “There’s much more instability to religious belief than we recognize,” said Norenzayan, noting that life’s circumstances and experiences, from traumatic events to joyous occasions, can lead people to become more or less religious. “Religion is such an important part of the world and we have so little understanding of it,” he added. “So regardless of what you think about religion, it’s important to understand it because it’s so important in the world.” Norenzayan is quick to mention that the experiments did not turn devout believers into total atheists. But he speculated that if people habitually think analytically, like scientists or lawyers do, it would lead to less religious belief in the long run. Robert McCauley, director of the Center for Mind, Brain and Culture at Emory University, and author of "Why religion is natural and science is not," found the study particularly interesting because he thought it was difficult to make even a minimal change in religious belief. “It’s not likely you would argue someone out of a religious belief very often because they don’t hold those beliefs on argumentative or reflective grounds in the first place,” said McCauley, who believes religious beliefs rely primarily on intuitive thinking. Analytical thinking alone does not necessarily lead to a decrease in religious belief, emphasized Norenzayan. “There’s a combination of factors [as to] why people become believers or nonbelievers - this is only one piece of the puzzle,” Norenzayan said, explaining that his team doesn’t think analytical thinking is superior to intuitive thinking. “It makes the story we need to tell about religion and religious belief all the more complicated,” said McCauley. “That’s what great scientific research does – ask more interesting questions.” soundoff (3,468 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Is Mitt Romney going to answer any questions about his Mormon faith before the election, or is a cult member going to skate into the White House without being grilled?
The consti.tution forbids the imposition of any type of religious test for any office in the US. So why is it you fundiots are so fixated on who can "out jesus" the other?
Jesus and the Mormon church are strangers. That's the problem.
Chuck,
The Mormons have just as much claim to the truth of Jesus as you do. That is the problem when people think believing in unprovable myths is reasonable. Believing in other unprovable myths is JUST as reasonable and to say yours is true and theirs is false just compounds your irrationality.
AtheismIsCrap
And nothing more than.
Your point is?
Amazing! If you actually think about the existence of a deity you come to the conclusion that it's bull...
Hmmmm it would appear that the people that "believe" obviously are not thinking.
It took an actual study to come to this conclusion? Geez...
And nothing more than.
energy is required.
and nothing more than.
Here is a great scene that demonstrates what analytical thinking will do to your faith..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xwZt8ypufE
And as I like to say about religion: "It makes sense if you don't think about it."
That's an excellent summation, and it only represents a fraction of the evil done by god in the bible..
I'm an analytical thinker. I'm also a believer. This article is complete trash. Just more libtard nonsense to destroy morals and values.
Ah, a troll.
Okay, I'll play.
Let's hear your logical scientific analysis that shows how your "god" exists using real facts and objective information.
I'm sorry, I guess I missed the part of the article that said that everyone who claimed they were analytical thinkers dropped religion entirely.
Reading Comprehension Fail
heh.As usual, the same atheist trolls that always troll CNN. You sometimes provide me with no end of amusement. My faith comes from things I have seen, things I have witnessed. Faith is a personal thing. If you want to discuss wording in the bible, or how things are phrased, I'll be happy to. My faith, however, is my own.
So, here's a softball, how do you define "moral values"
And, are those values absolute?
Yes, my values are absolute. Be kind to your family and friends, help those in need, protect your own, love each other, be strong within faith, follow laws, don't break trust, don't lie, don't cheat, work hard, take care of your responsibilities.. things of that nature.
And where do those values come from? And is the bible the inspired word of god?
" love each other"
As long as their white, right GodsPeople?
as to defining moral values in general, I'd say (in a secular sense for you), "a list of life rules that are meant to make a person a better individual overall, letting one live life without need for worry or regrets."
For me, it's more a matter of, "A way of living given by God to man so that we can know Him and love Him, and know love and life through Him."
"Be kind to your family and friends, help those in need, protect your own, love each other, be strong within faith, follow laws, don't break trust, don't lie, don't cheat, work hard, take care of your responsibilities"
Only one of these actually require a deity. The rest are easily explained by evolution and the need for a system of morals for social animals. The more social and complex the society, the greater need for a system of morals. No god needed.
@HellBent: Mine come from my faith. To me, the bible is the word of God, and I also know that since I don't speak Aramaic (I did try learning it for about 2 months, and when I just couldn't get it ended up giving it up) I know I'm also missing context. There are a lot of concepts, words, feelings, things that don't have direct translations over to Hebrew, and then from Hebrew to Greek, Greek to Latin... I often have to ask my priest for advice to make sure I'm interpreting it properly.
@"Stormfront Unite": I believe all races have a right to exist and to love their own. That's how WN's actually believe. We don't want anyone exterminated, we don't want slavery, we don't want anything other than the right to exist, which the Zionists are trying to take away from us. They're using our government and laws to do so. We just want to survive and ensure a future for our children. I don't see how that's wrong.
"given by god"
Your god, through the bible, told us that beating slaves to death was moral so long as they didn't die the same day. Also, owning sex slaves was moral, so long as they weren't Hebrew. So, since morals are absolute to you, you must also think these things are moral, yes? I mean, god isn't a moral relativist is he?
And if the bible isn't given by god, then how do you know what god thinks is moral and what he doesn't?
"we don't want slavery"
Why not? It's moral according to the bible?
You don't need to understand the nuances of Greek, Hebrew or Aramiac to use Strong's and see that the translation for both beating slaves and for owning sex slaves is very accurate. It's extremely clear. Do your own research – it's all readily available.
@Hellbent: Nice try, but like I've told other atheists here, I will not be losing faith no matter what you throw at me. Here's a little facet of history that the liberalized education system does not want you to know:
Everyone has been enslaved at one point or another. White, black, jew, arab.. none of it makes any difference. Everyone has a slave in their family tree somewhere. It was common place back then. You're also forgetting that the Jews were extolled within thier 600-some odd rules (which are easily found online) to treat their slaves like family members, to eat at the same table with them, etc. Like I said though, nice try.
"Godspeople"-
I think we can all agree that slavery is immoral, regardless of who in history had slaves or were inslaved. But why did it take 1,800 years after Jesus for us to abolish it? Over 1,900 years to give women the right to vote? Morality comes from the advancement of society, not from your bible.
@"your god": I'd say you're the one overcomplicating things. Slavery is not abolished. It still happens in sub-saharan Africa, the s–3–x slave market exists in places like Thailand. Even in China, political prisoners are often sentenced to slave labor. It's only in Christian nations that slavery no longer exists.
Also, conquering and enslaving/otherwise taking advantage of others is a simple part of human nature. A primal instinct. It's that nature/instinct God helps us to fight.
Are your really surprised CNN would run a story like this? It is their mandate to print such trash. Every week they have an article that is attacking specifically Christians.
CNN are a biased news program, using selected 'news' as a reeducation tool for their secret agenda. Switch to FOX. I did.
" I will not be losing faith no matter what you throw at me. "
You claim to be analytical, yet you apparently trust the obviously biased view of your pastor, and you will continue thinking the exact same way as you currently are when presented with contradictory evidence.
In what way, then, do you consider yourself to be an analytical thinker?
"You're also forgetting that the Jews were extolled within thier 600-some odd rules (which are easily found online) to treat their slaves like family members, to eat at the same table with them"
you obviously haven't eard your bible. Those rules only apply to Hebrew slaves. Non-hebrew slaves could be beaten to death. I'd suggest you try reading the entire book next time.
The bible condones slavery. If the bible is the word of god, and god is absolute, then slavery must be moral. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to counter argue when bringing up the fact that slavery has existed in the past and that everyone has it in their family history. Where has anyone ever said otherwise? The difference between you and the other posters on this thread is that no one else is claiming that slavery is moral.
The bible allows for sex slaves. Please provide the context – ANY context – in which you find this to be moral. Why didn't your god just simply say "no sex slaves"?
"It's that nature/instinct God helps us to fight."
God doesn't help you fight slavery – he tells you that it's ok. Have you ever actually read your book? Try not to just cherry pick the convenient parts.
" Every week they have an article that is attacking specifically Christians."
The article talks about a study. If you don't like statistics and would rather ignore evidence that you find inconvenient, stick to websites that specifically cater to you.
@GodsPeople
You either don’t understand what analytical thinking means, or have never read your bible.
“I will not be losing faith no matter what you throw at me.” What if Thor or Krishna made an appearance, what would that do to your faith?
And nothing more than..
That was pretty funny.. "I am analytical christian!! Yay me!!.. Oh no, I don't ask those sorts of questions about my faith.. Oh no, I don't worry about what the bible says over there, and right there, and over there, and in that part.. I just don't worry about it.. But I AM an analytical christian... just believe me... PLEASE??!!"
It's that nature/instinct God helps us to fight.
-------
Interesting, as God created us as we are. Why would he help us fight instincts he created us to have?
Lets change one little word and see how you feel about it:
"Here's a little facet of history that the liberalized education system does not want you to know: Everyone has been r a p e d at one point or another. White, black, jew, arab.. none of it makes any difference. Everyone has a r a p e victim in their family tree somewhere."
Would that make you feel better about a book saying r a p e isn't so bad and had laws governing legal r a p e? Or might a resonable person say "If this book is okay with r a p e, should I really be teaching my child from it?"
GodsPeople wrote, "Everybody has been enslaved at one point or another."
You'd have thought than an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would have had the balls to say, "Thou shalt not own another human"?
@Hybrid: Not really. CNN's anti-white, anti-christian, liberal agenda is very well known.
@Facepalm: there IS no "evidence to the contrary." Maybe one day science can completely disprove God's existence, but I don't honestly believe it'll happen. It's more likely science will actually PROVE God's existence, and then what will you do, with all of your hatred and vitriol?
@Read: perhaps you should grow a brain stem and a few teeth before posting. The 3 year old forum is over there ---->
@Marc: who's to say they don't? Just because I don't follow them doesn't mean I don't think they might or might not have existed at one point or another. What's to say they're not all manifestations of the same God?\
@momoya: believe it or not, I don't care if you believe me. That's your problem, not mine.
@Madtown: Because He knew we would need it to survive. We'd have to be tough, we'd have to be able to rumble to be able to live in this world with each other. There's a primitive in all of us. A caveman, if you will. That more primitive instinct is what we have to not use now, that we HAD to use then. God helps us to overcome those more primitive urges. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted (dearly wanted, desperately wanted) to erupt in bloody violence and to delight in it. Before I converted, I likely would have without a qualm. Now... not so much.
@GodPot: I never said slavery was "right." don't twist my words. I said that conquering and subjugating others is part of human nature. To be honest though, it's mainly part of the nature of we gentiles. The Jews are forbidden to kill period. Also remember, I'm not subject to the old testament. The old testament (covenant of Abraham) is Orthodox Judaeism. I'm Orthodox Christian, my covenant is with Christ, the embodiment of God.
@PrimeWonk: He gave us free will, to live within His Grace or seperate ourselves from Him at our own choice, our actions. His love is neverending, but He will not go where He is not wanted. We are the ones who've used free will, whether by pagan, christian, or atheist, to commit horrible crimes against humanity.
"Maybe one day science can completely disprove God's existence,"
No, it cannot. Rules of logic are at play here. But you'd have to actually BE an analytical thinker to understand that.
I also love "The jews are not allowed to kill anyone" Really? You clearly have not read your bible. Try it some time. It's enlightening.
And congratulations on not being subject to the OT. I guess when your supposed savior allegedly said that he was not coming to replace the old laws, no one wrote down the part where he made an exception for you.
Question: If the jews had their own laws, then god must be a moral relativist. But earlier you said that morals were absolute. How do you reconcile these positions?
Another question – if god is moral, in what context – ANY context – is owning sex slaves moral. You keep ducking the hard questions. Can you not actually address them? Why wouldn't your supposedly moral god simply not say 'don't own sex slaves.
@Facepalm: There are several problems with what you posted:
I never said God made "special exception" for me personally. You need to read the story of the Canaanite Woman. Originally, Christ was sent by God to lead the lost children of Israel back to Him, but Israel only. It wasn't until the Canaanite Woman's humility that God's Grace was extended to Gentiles. Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) was indeed sent to fulfill the law. The law that is written by the prophet Isiah, that the Messiah would come, the Jews would reject Him, and that He would die and be reborn. Jesus celebrated every Jewish holiday, as well as keeping all 613 laws (note, however, Jesus never owned a slave.) The concept of "s-3-x slaves" is not a Christian concept in the slightest. As a matter of fact, we hold the practice in complete repugnance. Not only that, but Christ clearly states that "He who looks upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart." My law as a gentile is that of Christ. Christ does not condone treating ANYONE badly. I'm not even treating you badly, just trying to answer your questions as best as my imperfect understanding of God's will can do.
"He gave us free will, to live within His Grace or seperate ourselves from Him at our own choice, our actions. His love is neverending, but He will not go where He is not wanted. We are the ones who've used free will, whether by pagan, christian, or atheist, to commit horrible crimes against humanity."
You have to love stupid statements like this one. Your god’s love is NOT never ending, far from it. Only 33% of the people on this planet are Christians and of those very few are real Christians. Now that means that your god based on what is written in the bible is going to burn for all eternity roughly 70% of the people on this planet, that’s close to 4.7 billion. That is not a loving god, that is an evil monster. Oh....that's right... no worries.... cause your god doesn't exist. LOL!
Ok.. so, according to you, the omni potent god who made the universe, earth, and life decided to put flaws in his creation just for giggles? is it because he is bored and wanted to add drama to the world that he made these "primal instincts" to war and sin? so that when someone fails he get to burn him in hell for eternity? what kind of sadist is he? the love filled sadist? or is your god not so powerful in the first place? then again what kind of god is he?
One of the basic premises of analytical thinking is to go where the logic takes you – even if it is against your personal liking. So, when you make a statement like "I am not going to lose my faith no matter what you throw at me" you are NOT using analytical or logical reasoning. You decided on the conclusion and are trying to fit your proof to achieve that result. So, when you say you are an analytical thinker, you are in fact an immoral liar and deceitful creation.. just like your god.
@YeahRight: Might want to retype that. Your incoherent hate rant doesn't make much sense.
@Snow: Read what I said to YeahRight.
that unfortunately does not answer the questions which you obviously understood 100% and yet simply refuse to answer it. Afraid your faith is on shaky ground now?
“ Your incoherent hate rant doesn't make much sense.”
Obviously you really don’t have an answer. Based on your bible your god is going to burn for all eternity roughly 70% (over 4 billion) of the people on this planet because they don’t believe in YOUR god. That is NOT a loving god, that is an evil monster.
ONLY FOR THE NEWCOMERS AND THINKERS: Part VI, a summary:
Based on Parts I-VII: See pp. 2, 14, 22, 23, 23, 24, 26, 48
Putting the kibosh on religion:
• There was probably no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• There was probably no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
(prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell. )
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.
e.g. Taoism
"The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.
Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother's womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. "
Um.. Thats like saying Studies show that eating two quarter pounders with cheese a day for a year straight may cause weight gain. Gimmee a break.
Prayer changes things .
Sweden is 80+% atheist and has lower crime rates, better healthcare and better education.
Moreover, prayer has been shown in studies to be ineffective:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/ns/health-heart_health/t/power-prayer-flunks-unusual-test/
Your claim is demonstrably false. Atheism is fine, and does not harm children or societies. I suggest you revise your views.
"Sweden is 80+% atheist"
Until you can provide a link or a site that can strongly, irrefutably and unarguably back-up your claim of such figures, you are considered LYING and yet be known as a BALD-FACED LIAR and nothing but a PIECE of CRAP for the rest of your miserable life.
You must be an atheist and a VERY typical one.
Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!*!.~
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html
Sweden is about 85% atheist. Just Google it and a ton of sources come up.
@I'm the best
Is that reliable source? Are the data are specifically, irrefutably and SPECIFICALLY saying that's the 85% REALLY are atheist?
Just make sure of your sources OR you'll IMMEDIATELY become an OFFICIAL member of the band of LIARS and CRAPS.
From the website:
"Source: Zuckerman, Phil. "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns", chapter in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005)."
If you're going to argue about what I post at least read it. Most people would agree Cambridge is a reliable source.
@I'm the best
If a Mormon would give here lds.org as a link to support Mormonism, would you take it?
"If a Mormon would give here lds.org as a link to support Mormonism, would you take it?"
How is that a relevant comparison? It's not as if Cambridge is an official atheist organization. Have you ever even been to Cambridge?
I'd at least check it out. But like atheism is saying, unless they source what they're saying from some reliable place then you have to just as.sume its someone's opinion. So unless its sourced I'm not going to take the info on the site too seriously.
But if I'm going to yell at someone about sources then I'll at least check the site they are making theory claim from.
@I'm the best
So you find a source that couldn't give a more FIX and SPECIFIC figure on their study thinking that they could cloak bias informations behind a VERY HUGE percentage gap, reliable? Oh, 46-85% Oh, C'mon!
To all..here's the real facts about religion in Sweden
Church membership in Sweden dramatically fell-down from 95.2% in 1972 to 70% in 2010.
wikipedia/wiki/demographics_of_atheism
And in Eurobarometer poll though majority (53%) of Swedish population don't believe in God but they "REFUSED" to be LABELED as atheist because they still believe in something like a spirit or life force.
Devout believers and atheists shared at 23% a piece.
en.wikipedia.org/wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?pagewanted=all
That's a HARD FACT and those who tried to bend it to favour their sides is nothing but a PIECE of CRAP! End of the story.
For your first post directed directly at me,
You're welcome to do your own research. I just typed into google and showed the first article I found with a reliable source. If you plan on proving someone wrong it actually helps to do a little research yourself. I've shown my proof that it could be as high as 85%, but that was from 7 years ago. Maybe a more recent article would be more accurate.
Stop trying to find holes in our posts and start trying to make a proof of your own. It's how intelligent people form arguments, it might even help with some analytical thinking skills which according to this article could help you out a good bit.
(I had written this before your second post on the next page)
To your second post,
Hahaha! You scream at us about sources then you use wikipedia as yours. Way to fail on that one.
As for the NYTimes article, all it's saying is that the morals that are taught by christians, besides the bigotry and hate, are good morals, and most atheists will agree with that. And it gave no percentages, just that religion to most of them is a non-issue. Not that they aren't atheists, just that they're all pretty indifferent about the whole thing. That's a poor article to prove a point.
"As for the NYTimes article, all it's saying is that the morals that are taught by christians, besides the bigotry and hate, are good morals, and most atheists will agree with that."
I don't think atheists are upset at all by the moral principles taught in the bible, the issues arise when the bible gives exceptions to it's own moral rules. From "Thou shalt not kill" to "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
If the bible did not contain convenient loopholes from it's moral laws we likely wouldn't even be having this debate.
"Hahaha! You scream at us about sources then you use wikipedia as yours. Way to fail on that one."
Nope, I was not. Actually, it's that what you think because that what it sounds. It's SCREAMING!!!!! ON the TOP of the LIST in google search. I even wonder how much effort you've exerted digging just to find a link to support your LIES and CRAPS! Honestly, I never find it until I typed it on the search tab.
And the NY times that was VERY detailed and specific and not to mention much latest by your outdated and doubful link suddenly becomes a poor one? You really don't get it do you? Do you really have that skin so thick the the sharpest facts couldn't pinched a bit? And cranium so shallow that even inch of truth couldn't sink-in?
Oh, I almost forget, I'm speaking to a PIECE of CRAP, Sorry!
Wait.... so you think that anything that comes up on a google search is a reliable source? If you really think that then I doubt you're out of middle school yet because if you've ever had to write a real paper in your life you would know differently.
As for the NYTimes article. Did you notice that the article was written about the same person who wrote the book that the website that I gave referenced? I thought I did a pretty good job about summing up the article myself.... It really wasn't that detailed. If I were you I'd spend less time trying to insult people on the internet and more time learning what a reliable source is and how to form a proper argument and articulate said argument.
"How is that a relevant comparison? It's not as if Cambridge is an official atheist organization."
How about this?
"chapter in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism"
@facepalm
FACEPALM!
So what's your point? Are you saying that only sites in google that supports your CRAP is the one reliable? Even if it's already an ancient artifact and you need an oil drill to unearth from google? Despite the fact that there are much more latest, detailed and specific and not to mention a much more PREFFERED/searched sites?
Oh, C'mon! Is that your Pre-school teacher has been teaching you? You better go out, you're too old to be stay (there) anyway.
BORING!!!GTG.
"So what's your point?"
My point is there is a difference between a random article you find off of google and an article with a reliable reference.
"Are you saying that only sites in google that supports your CRAP is the one reliable? Even if it's already an ancient artifact and you need an oil drill to unearth from google?"
No, just the sites that tell where they got their information from and those sources are in fact reliable. Also, the article I used was one of the first ones there directly after all the wikipedia articles.
"Despite the fact that there are much more latest, detailed and specific and not to mention a much more PREFFERED/searched sites?"
Much more recent (which I believe is the word you're looking for), detailed and specific articles? I'm sure there are, but you have yet to provide any. And none with any kind of reliable reference. Try using google scholar and searching, that might help. I'm not going to because I don't plan on wasting my day looking through all the scientific articles trying to prove my point which was already done with my first website. Google Scholar may actually help you realize the difference between an internet article and an internet article with reliable references.
"Oh, C'mon! Is that your Pre-school teacher has been teaching you? You better go out, you're too old to be stay (there) anyway."
Learning how to communicate is a key part in getting through life and unless english is not your first language you don't have an excuse. Even if it's not, I'd recommend taking some classes because if no one can understand you then you probably won't get too far.
@PAK – a book about atheist does not mean the book, or the university, is atheist leaning.
Epic. Logic. Fail.
@I'm the best (Crap)
Okay, enough for the game.
For the final haymaker;
The 46-85 stat is for the whole non-believer (combined) populace and absolutely NOT SPECIFICALLY for atheist.
If you want hard facts and figures SPECIFICALLY (it has been in-all caps to give you a hint) for ATHEISTS, scroll down a lil bit on the VERY (reliable) OWN article that you've been bragging here all day long.
It ALSO listed the top 10 countries with highest ATHEISTS (SPECIFICALLY) proportion. Too bad your precious Sweden didn't make it. But YOU MUST BE VERY PROUD what's on TOP of the LIST. LOL!
Although it's soo disappointing to see you terribly fail to stand by your own moniker. But we can do nothing about it, that's ONLY the BEST you can get. It's my fault though, I was expectting to much from (your moniker) it. And in-fairness it has been a lot of fun.
K.O.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
That was a good hummer.
Matthew 11 >>
New International Version 1984
16“To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
17“‘We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn.’
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”
Rest for the Weary
25At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
John 3 >>
New International Version 1984
16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,f that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.g 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”h
Romans 11 >>
New International Version 1984
it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”d
9And David says:
May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”e
20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom andi knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”j
35“Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”k
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
So ... your god is an egotistical narcissistic sadist with an inferiority complex? Really, why would the creator of the entire universe care about people worshiping him? Just another example of man making god in his image.
But don't worry – you're a special flower and god loves you. And he hates everyone else. Because you're better than everyone else.
Romans 5 >>
New International Version 1984
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation
You do realize, of course, that your "books" like Acts, Romans, Thessalonians, Ephesians, et. al., were NEVER meant to be published and treated as any kind of "holy writ"? The author simply wrote his ramblings, and never dreamed that his letters would be used as any kind of sacred scripture. Your entire New Testament is taken out of context.
2 Timothy 3 >>
New International Version 1984
12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
So, the post above explicitly states that for believing, you will be persecuted, and that from infancy you have known the Scriptures. .. Translation... people will know this book is full of sh!t and that we have been brainwashing you since birth to do what we want you to do, think how we tell you to think, say what we want you to say and believe what we tell you to believe. Your meanderings don't prove anything, save for the fact that you need to be de-programmed. Your book says you'll be teased and mocked and persecuted because the educated know that your book is just that. A book, nothing more nothing less, written by man to control man. Your quotes prove nothing.
Matthew 10 >>
New International Version 1984
Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
26“So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a pennyd? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
32“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
Matthew 12 >>
New International Version 1984
34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
So, whoever follows YOUR faith is good, everyone else is evil. Does that about sum it up?
By Truth's ramblings of scripture it is quite obvious that he/she is not capable of thinking for him/herself. Repeating scripture doesn't make it factual, it only proves that Truth's parents were busy brainwashing their children instead of teaching them to use their brains properly...control and abuse it what it is.
Hmmm sounds like Hellbent and truthprevails have Mommy and Daddy issues. They let them think so freely that thier brains fell out.
Summarizing –
The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
(references used are available upon request)
Jim: No issues here, just pointing out the reality of the matter. If Truth is incapable of doing anything other than quoting scripture, it is he/she that has the issue.
@Jim,
Thanks for that lovely, insightful, thought provoking response.
Obviously, you're a xtian in name only
@Jim
Hey, they're not the ones who want to be treated as a child for the rest of their lives.
1 Corinthians 3 >>
New International Version 1984
18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”a; 20and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”b 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephasc or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
Yet you think you are wise to believe the words of Paul of Tarsus, who thought himself to be wise when writing them?!
10You have trusted in your wickedness
and have said, ‘No one sees me.’
Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you
when you say to yourself,
‘I am, and there is none besides me.’
11Disaster will come upon you,
and you will not know how to conjure it away.
A calamity will fall upon you
that you cannot ward off with a ransom;
a catastrophe you cannot foresee
will suddenly come upon you.
12“Keep on, then, with your magic spells
and with your many sorceries,
which you have labored at since childhood.
Perhaps you will succeed,
perhaps you will cause terror.
13All the counsel you have received has only worn you out!
Let your astrologers come forward,
those stargazers who make predictions month by month,
let them save you from what is coming upon you.
14Surely they are like stubble;
the fire will burn them up.
They cannot even save themselves
from the power of the flame.
Here are no coals to warm anyone;
here is no fire to sit by.
15That is all they can do for you—
these you have labored with
and trafficked with since childhood.
Each of them goes on in his error;
there is not one that can save you.
Romans 12 >>
New International Version 1984
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
And just WHAT, exactly, are you trying to prove with your copy and paste quoting?
Yup, god prefers us to be stupid. Although, he's apparently been giving us that message since he created us – that whole tree of knowledge thing. But then again, if you're trying to con people, you'd want them to be dumb.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" -The Wizard of Oz
Matthew 18 >>
New Living Translation
1About that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?”
2Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. 3Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 4So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.
5“And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalfa is welcoming me. 6But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7“What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting.
10“Beware that you don’t look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels are always in the presence of my heavenly Father.c
Mirosal: All Truth is proving in the inability to think for him/herself.
YYYYYYY
Yes, Paul who was a self-admitted enemy of the Jews who followed Jesus, and continued to fight them with his insistence that gentiles could become followers without following the Law. Really then, Paul never did stop being an enemy of the original followers of Jesus, and still people follow his teaching over Jesus' on many issues. Amazing!
Contradictions,
God is unchanging, yet he changes his mind from the Old Testament to the New Testament.
God is all knowing, yet he gave us fee will. If he knows what we are going to do before we do them I am not making a choice and we do not have free will.
God is all just and all merciful. Mercy is a suspension of justice.
Here is a larger list.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions
God is immoral.
Infinite punishment for finite crimes.
Punishing the Egyptions after hardining Pharohs heart to stop him from freeing the Isrealites. Killing first born children who were innocent of the circ.umstances they were being killed for.
Punishing all of humanity for the mistakes of Adam and Eve. If our gov't punished the son of a criminal for his parent's crime that would be both immoral and unjust.
Slavery.
Insti.tuting rules for slavery such as 'you can beat your slave as long as the slave does not die in a day or two' (just one example of many) implies that owning other people is acceptable. With all the laws and rules for humans to follow all god had to say was 'it is wrong to own people', but he didn't, the ONLY logical conclusion is that god condons slavery.
Killing of innocents.
When god flooded the earth, or wiped out Sodom and Gamorrah babies and young children were killed who had nothing to do with the crimes against god that they were being punished for.
These are but a few examples, actually read the bible and you will find many more.
In response to No Truth, Just Claims
"God is unchanging, yet he changes his mind from the Old Testament to the New Testament."
Such as...? Could you provide an example?
"God is all knowing, yet he gave us fee will. If he knows what we are going to do before we do them I am not making a choice and we do not have free will."
That's a non sequitur. Yes, God knows what you're going to do. Does He make you do them? No. You still have a choice.
"God is all just and all merciful. Mercy is a suspension of justice."
Why do you think that's a contradiction? Why do you think God shows mercy to some and not to others?
"Here is a larger list.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions"
Do you really have genuine concerns or are you just cherry picking verses from another atheist's website? Many atheists say that Christians don't read the Bible. Have you read to Bible to really understand what Christians believe or are you just reaping things you've heard?
"God is immoral."
So let me get this strait: You believe that the deity you don't believe in is immoral? Why worry about it then? I'd also like to get your understand of the word "immoral." Do you believe that there is set of moral absolutes. If so, how do you define right and wrong? I need to learn as much about your beliefs as you need to learn about mine if we are to have an open and honest dialog.
"Killing of innocents."
"When god flooded the earth, or wiped out Sodom and Gamorrah babies and young children were killed who had nothing to do with the crimes against god that they were being punished for."
No, they weren't.
Regarding the flood, "The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5.
Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, read the story of how Abraham pleaded with God NOT to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham would say to God something like "but what if there were 50 righteous people in those cities?" God said he would then spare the cites. Abraham would ask God "what if there were 30?", "what if there were 20?" "what if there were 10?" and God said he would spare the cities. But the truth is that there was only Lot and his family. So God had Lot and his family leave and then he destroyed the cities.
Look, I'd love to answer every objection you have. But I'd like to get at the heart of the issue. I'd like to know what your beliefs are and why you believe them. Have you taken the time to research all your objections? (I'm hoping that you're being genuine and not just repeating things you've heard or read). There's plenty of websites that have all the answers you copied and pasted from thethinkingatheist.com. I would encourage you seriously weigh the pro and cons of each argument.
Yes Paul I have reseached what I have posted.
As to your question of why do I care. Because 85% of people in this country are religious and most of them are Christian. Most of our current leaders are christian and many base their decisions on their 'christian' teachings or at least claim they do. CHristianity is being pushed in gov't from schools to courthouses and that affects every citizen. I can't tell family members what I think for fear of them ostracizing me. Peoples religious beliefs do not exist in a vacu.um whither the core of the belief is true the belief itself can affect everyone. Believe me I wish Chistianity had the same effect on my life as Scientology does (none) and I then could not care less about it.
I was raised christian with all the fear and superst.ition associated with it. I spent many nights as a child worrying god would punish me and my loved ones for eternity. It is an immoral teaching and I have provided reasons why I feel that way, why don't you provide reasons why it is not? There are good teachings in Christianity but none of them are original to Christianity and the contradictions (which you have blinded yourself to) are easily evident. You can do mental gymnastics to rationalize the stories of how god kills children and claim that those actions are moral but I don't agree, might does not make right.
"But the truth is that there was only Lot and his family. So God had Lot and his family leave and then he destroyed the cities."
So if Lot was so 'rightious' why did he get so drunk he had se.x with his daughters 2 nights in a row after leaving the city. It is interesting I had to read the bible myself to find that tidbit, all the religion classes just failed to cover that part. Listen I have been drunk before and if I am so drunk I am incapable of knowing I am commiting inces.t it would not be possible to consumate, if I am not that drunk then I would know I am copulating with my daughter. Lot was not rightious, neither is the bible. I would not read many of the stories to a child. The bible is a book of myths that has 40 different authors, it is a copy of a copy, ect. and has been translated and re-translated many times over and yet people trust that it was written by god himself though when looked at with a critical eye the flaws of man are obvious.
I have talked to numerous leaders in different denominations and asked the difficult questions, they provided rationalizations just like you do, but they have no real answers, and when stuck the answer is "god is mysterious", well isn't that convienient? They always have a lot 'answers' until they don't. You would not need 25,000+ different versions of christianity if it contained truth. You cannot show with empirical evidence why there is any more or less validity to the Christian god than there is to the Greek gods or the Hindu gods or any other religion. They can't all be correct but they can all be false.
"God is unchanging, yet he changes his mind from the Old Testament to the New Testament."
"Such as...? Could you provide an example?"
Well, the most glaring change is that in the Old Testament the chosen people were the Jews, in the New Testament anyone could be saved. I don't want to hear your justification as it does not matter because regardless, the god of the Old Testament Changed his mind.
I noticed you took a lot of time to answer but failed to even touch on my response to your conclusion slavery is not condoned by god, if this remains unanswered I will conclude you agree with me that god condons slavery.
"God is all knowing, yet he gave us fee will. If he knows what we are going to do before we do them I am not making a choice and we do not have free will."
"That's a non sequitur. Yes, God knows what you're going to do. Does He make you do them? No. You still have a choice."
Actually Paul your logic on this point is a non-squitur. If god knew every decision I was going to make before I was born I don't know how you can claim I had free will. The only way I could have free will is if I could make a decision opposite of what god knew I was going to do. Not only that if he knew every decision I was to make before I was born and those decisions led me to be judged and punished in hell that god is also immoral for allowing me to be born.
The heart of the matter is that "beliefs are the acceptance of a claim." Accepting claims that have no foundation other than the assertions of others , makes those who accept them willfully ignorant and that is dangerous for all of humanity and hold us back from discovering the truth of our reality.
If I find reasonable evidence that god exists I will change my mind.
Would you change yours?
momoya
"I feel no need to support my claim, as I feel no need to offer argumentation for obvious facts; dismiss it if you wish."
"obvious facts", huh?
From Wikipedia,
"In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it."
Are you saying that just because you and other atheists believe the Bible to be contradictory makes it true? I hope not. This is why you really need to support your claims.
Contradictions in the bible:
http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm
Allow me to illuminate, of puffy pants one.
After Jesus is crucified and put in his tomb, Mary goes alone to the tomb, finds the stone rolled back and the tomb empty, and later sees Jesus and two angels. But Mary also goes with another Mary and Salome, find the stone rolled away, and a man in white inside wo tells them Jesus has arisen, and they run away. But the two Marys go together with nobody else and find the tomb closed, but an angel comes and rolls away the stone, telling them Jesus is arisen, after which Jesus shows up and tells them not to be afraid even though they are joyous. And also, Mary and a group of women totallying at least five go and find the stone rolled and the tomb empty, and suddenly two men stand beside them and tell them Jesus is risen.
So as you can see, aside from the number of women, whether the stone is in place or not, what they find, and how many mysterioous people show up, the stories match with non-contrradictory precision.
And how do you get into heaven? Is it faith alone, or are acts necessary? The answer to this question, which is quite important to a believer, is that the two mutually incompatible answers are both true, depending on what part of the Bible you are reading.
No contradiction there either!
@Paul,
If you don't think that the bible has contradictions, then you obviously haven't read the bible.
@HellBent
"If you don't think that the bible has contradictions, then you obviously haven't read the bible."
First of all, that's a non sequitur. It does not follow that if I don't think that the Bible has contradictions, then I haven't read the Bible. If you take the time to do some research, the so-called contradictions aren't really contradictions at all.
Why do you think the Bible has contradictions? Are you just repeating things you've heard or read? You are reading your interpretation into it instead of drawing from it? Some things to keep in mind:
Words can change meaning over time. What did those words mean at the time they were written?
Sometimes you need to do some historical research, to get an understanding of the ancient Jewish and Greek cultures and languages.
In response to No Truth, Just Claims,
"Not only is the god of the bible contradictory,..."
How is He contradictory? What is your support for such claims?
"he is immoral."
I'm glad you believe in absolute moral standards. You do...don't you?
"He does not condemn slavery."
But it doesn't logically follow that He condones it.
"He condons the killing of innocent people."
First, how do you know they were innocent? Second, provide support for your claim that He condones killing them.
I'd really like to understand where all you guys are coming from. It would really help me out if you could provide me with specifics.
FUCK! You christians never like to do any of your own research.
Get to reading:
http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/index.html
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
christian god hate innocanet baby
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Contradictions,
God is unchanging, yet he changes his mind from the Old Testament to the New Testament.
God is all knowing, yet he gave us fee will. If he knows what we are going to do before we do them I am not making a choice and we do not have free will.
God is all just and all merciful. Mercy is a suspension of justice.
Here is a larger list.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions
God is immoral.
Infinite punishment for finite crimes.
Punishing the Egyptions after hardining Pharohs heart to stop him from freeing the Isrealites. Killing first born children who were innocent of the circ.umstances they were being killed for.
Punishing all of humanity for the mistakes of Adam and Eve. If our gov't punished the son of a criminal for his parent's crime that would be both immoral and unjust.
Slavery.
Insti.tuting rules for slavery such as 'you can beat your slave as long as the slave does not die in a day or two' (just one example of many) implies that owning other people is acceptable. With all the laws and rules for humans to follow all god had to say was 'it is wrong to own people', but he didn't, the ONLY logical conclusion is that god condons slavery.
Killing of innocents.
When god flooded the earth, or wiped out Sodom and Gamorrah babies and young children were killed who had nothing to do with the crimes against god that they were being punished for.
These are but a few examples, actually read the bible and you will find many more.
@No Truth and Pillow
So it a must read coz you are posting (the links) it in here. What if, Mormons or Catholics will post a link: http://www.lds.org and http://www.myvaticantour respectively, What would you say?
If you are taking the side that the bible and god are not contradictory prove your point. It does not matter whither this information comes from an atheist site or not, the original information came from the bible and it is just grouped here to show the contradictory nature of the bible and god.
The bible says god is unchanging, and yet god changes his mind multiple times. If you think I am misrepresenting the bible say why.
Before I think about voting for Mitt Romney, I need to see a 30 minute program where he explains his Mormon faith. If he is allowed to skate through without being questioned, I won't even think of voting for him.
He is probubly dance around it like Obama did about his time in Rev Wrights church. Sorta that he was a member but not the day anything controversal was being discussed. 🙂
"He is probubly dance around it"
Good catch 🙂 ... grammer of someone who has been awake since early Church service, been to work is sitting here too tired to get up to crash on the couch.
I's be tired....
You's be's stupids, too
stupid ... oh well. Trolling huh... sorry you will need to do better than "stupid".
@Mark
Isn't it terrible how hard it can be to write well when you're tired?
Come back when you're a little more coherent, please. Thanks.
Umm.... yeah but I can still hit targets pretty well, even when sleepy. Also, good grief it was after 4am when you posted and I had already been in bed for a bit.
Where were you earlier?
@Mark
Earlier? Could you be a little more specific, please?
God already declared what does it mean to trust in the wisdom of this world. Knowledge and education is good, in the sense of helping us to live. Yet to much knowledge puffes up a man, till he thinks he has surpassed his need for God. That's where we are today.
But our advancements and knowledge will never replace that something that's missing in us, nor will it fill the longing that's in human heart.
We are physical AND spiritual beings. If one lives his life only acknowledging physical part of himself, he is only existing as a half of person. In another words, he is living in this world as a lame man.
And that is what we are seeing today. And that's why there is so much unhapiness and turmoil in our society, especialy in young people. Becaue they have ebeen robbed.... something very precious, meaningful and life-giving was taken away from this generation. May God have mercy on us and not let this god-less world go on and on, lest there be nothing more left in it but barbarism!
You are merely conditioned and conned into thinking something is missing. Without the goddamned bible, I feel my life is far more complete. You're dumb as a brick, by the way.
Really,
I lived with religion and a belief in god for most of my life. Now that I have let go of the fear and supersti.tion I have never been more content.
PRISM 1234
You can believe that the Bible faithfully conveys the actual thoughts of a super being called "God", but all we really know for certain is that it was written by men about this character. So, in reality, men wrote that anyone criticizing their ideas using arguments based on logic and general common sense actually had to be wrong because the character God says so_ 'nuff said, as Stan Lee would say.
"Yet to much knowledge puffes up a man, till he thinks he has surpassed his need for God."
If you believe that God, like superst.ition, fills the dark places in people's knowledge then, yes.
"But our advancements and knowledge will never replace that something that's missing in us, nor will it fill the longing that's in human heart."
What do you think is missing? Your religious world view may make you happy and fill you with awe, but my natural world view does the same thing for me; maybe to an even greater extent. Seriously, buy a good telescope and spend some time contemplating the enormity of the cosmos.
"We are physical AND spiritual beings."
Physical and emotional, feeling beings perhaps, and even "spiritual" in the sense that we are moved by things like art, music, and beauty. In that sense, yes, man cannot live happily without culture, fun, and mental enrichment.
You put your trust in the lame science of man, and I put my trust in the living God who reveals Himself to those who seek Him.
You boast yourself of critical thinking, but if you were not blinded by numbing of your own conscience on which is written the knowledge of God who created you, you would understand that there is more to life and our existence than our five senses tell us.
As for the science... those few bold ones, who are not intimidated into conforming to what ever direction the wind is blowing, are already admitting, and have been doing so for a long time, that there is no way our existence is accidental.... But its not them you will listen too, because they don't confirm what YOU WANT to believe, so you rather believe a lie!
So, go on fighting to the end, attempting to prove there is no God, but to those of us who KNOW, it only shows even further how deep man's rejection of his creator will take him into bondage of darkness.... Like I said before, you go your way, and we go ours. And we'll see the outcome of it. Fair enough.
Nothing else needed to say!
but to those of us who KNOW
-----
Arrogance. You don't KNOW. No one KNOWS. Have some humility, believe what you will, but acknowledge that these things you claim to know are unknowable. Your God considers arrogance and hubris a sin, no?
PRISM 1234
Unless you're Amish, or otherwise live on some island without electricity, modern medicine, automobiles, aircraft, or any of the other benefits that come from "lame science" you really are hypocritical. It's all the same science. The same method and peer review process that gives you cancer fighting drugs discovers the evidence of evolution. You just don't like some of the answers, because you have closed your mind to anything that contradicts what you believe about God, so you choose to deny them.
Because we have imaginations we may suspect there are things outside of what we can sense, but that is all. The human mind is easily fooled. We have blind spots, are susceptible to optical illusions, hallucinations, mob mentality, and a host of other, reality altering things. You "experience" God in your mind knowing how unreliable the human mind actually is and still you believe there is no chance at all that you could be wrong. That, my friend, is being delusional.
@Muneef, all your posts make ROFL, good stuff.
Derka Derka!! You zinfindel!!, you will dye!!
I became a believer because I looked into the Historical Jesus. I have a Masters.
HA! That is hilarious!
A master's degree in what? What people wrote about jesus years after his death?
Which Jesus is the historical one?
What do you mean by "The historical Jesus"? Do you mean a rabbi of the school of Hillel who died at the hands of the Romans, or do you mean the demigod son/part of God, because I don't know how you can define the later as "historical" in any way.
Where did you look into the historical Jesus? Did you consult the work of scholars, or apologists? Were you persuaded by research, or arguments? Please elaborate.
In your face, Piddler. Guess you've found out where you stand.
Analytic thinking (i.e. education) can decrease religious belief. There is a direct correlation between education and religiosity. The dumber you are the more you believe in a god. Educated individuals don't bother with such obvious nonsense.
Is that why often the Catholic, Jewish and Muslim private schools often outscore the secular schools in the Maths and Sciences?
Mark from Middle River
I guess you wouldn't lay any claims to Liberty University on that score, would you? 🙂
Hey mark, it's no secret that private schools provide better education than the public school system, you biased fuck.
Cq: Not sure 🙂 .... but for their Law School they appear to be kicking tail.
Hi Mike. Wow, why the attack. I am a public school kid but when folks start speaking on how the Faithful are uneducated or how we fear science and it is public knowledge that Faith based schools not only teach but their kids do very well if not better then should I be silent on the mistake.
Non religious private schools only make up roughly 20% of all private schools in the US. That's why your logic is biased. Go shove a bible up your wang holster.
Now, what is the percentage of die-hard believers that walk out of religious schools? Next to zero? Why is that? Because they know christianity and every other religion is retarded. Religious schools are only in it for the money. They aren't churning out preachers, genius.
I agree with you Mark.
I went to Catholic School and received a very good education.
I used that education to analyze the claims made by Christianity and found them to contradictory, immoral and lacking in validity.
I am now an atheist.
Mark from Middle River
The fact that they can produce effective lawyers does nothing to impress me concerning their claim to be on the side of truth. It's the lawyer's job to convince a jury of something when the evidence suggests otherwise, right?
A joke, if you will.
An engineer dies and reports to the pearly gates. St. Peter checks his dossier and says, "Ah, you're an engineer - you're in the wrong place."
So, the engineer reports to the gates of hell and is let in. Pretty soon, the engineer gets dissatisfied with the level of comfort in hell, and starts designing and building improvements. After awhile, they've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and the engineer is a pretty popular guy.
One day, God calls Satan up on the telephone and says with a sneer, "So, how's it going down there in hell?"
Satan replies, "Hey, things are going great. We've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and there's no telling what this engineer is going to come up with next."
God replies, "What??? You've got an engineer? That's a mistake - he should never have gotten down there; send him up here."
Satan says, "No way. I like having an engineer on the staff, and I'm keeping him."
God says, "Send him back up here or I'll sue."
Satan laughs uproariously and answers, "Yeah, right. And just where are YOU going to get a lawyer?"
🙂
Good night, buddy!
>>>”Religious schools are only in it for the money. They aren't churning out preachers, genius.”
Well I disagree with you Mike, that's a given. Do you feel that only “preachers” are what you consider to be “die-hard believers”? I did not graduate from a Religious school and while I am a bit unsure on your definition of a “die-hard believers” is, I still hold a Faith.
The wild thing is that most educators in Religious schools make less than in the secular public schools, so I am not seeing the money angle. Especially with public school doc'umented waste in spending and union contracts that protect poor teachers and saddle the rest with larger class sizes.
Also, can we just agree that the name calling just won't have that much effect on a person who grew up the only African American kid in his elementary and middle school years. The nerves that you are aimed at died long ago Mike.
Funny one Cq.
I really don't give a crap about your childhood. You don't have an argument rooted in fact. Your argument is completely biased. Keep your worthless beliefs in private. Nighty night!
# Just claims .... as did I. I was taught by Jesuits. And as I grew up, I lost faith exponetially year by year. By the time I entered high school, it was just lip service from that point on because even at that early age, I had lost what little faith I had to begin with.
>>>"Keep your worthless beliefs in private."
No. 🙂 They have worth to me as much as yours have worth to you. Not worried if you care or do not.
@Mark
You have free speech rights. Yes. They are limited as are your other rights.
I think he/she was mainly talking about the intrusion of a person's private beliefs into the public square in an oppressive and illegal manner, such as we see from the right-wing extremists.
I doubt anyone's going to show up at your door with a roll of duct-tape and rope to shut you up, although the idea has a certain allure at times...
>>>"I think he/she was mainly talking about the intrusion of a person's private beliefs into the public square in an oppressive and illegal manner, such as we see from the right-wing extremists."
Jeanine. So are to only allow into the "public square" those views that we feel comfortable with? I thought you were in the middle ground. In the public debate and even into legislation there will always be someone or some group that will declare that a law or a speech, that is counter to their own beliefs as oppresive or illegal. Watch anything from the Pro-Choice to the Pro-Life camps, to Affimative Action debates.
But let us look at this thread. JPX stated that:
"The dumber you are the more you believe in a god. Educated individuals don't bother with such obvious nonsense."
Now, we know there are Religious universities, all the way down to grade schools with early Kindergarten. So when we have all of these insti'tutions cranking out some of the most "educated" people in our society does that go counter to his statement. When I point this out, he claims that me defending such is biased and worthless.
To me this is amazing.
>>>"I doubt anyone's going to show up at your door with a roll of duct-tape and rope to shut you up, although the idea has a certain allure at times..."
So, do we need to "get a room" like the guy said. LOL 🙂
@Mark
You said, "So are to only allow into the "public square" those views that we feel comfortable with?"
No. I am for Equal Rights.
Anyone who wants pre-eminence over another in some way is going to be uncomfortable with any effort to level the playing field.
Wouldn't you agree?....Mister Republican?
As to getting a "room", it would have to be an online chat room. I'm a militant extremist, remember?
I might take you out, but not in a romantic way. It's easier to shove your words up your online ass. 😀
A drone war would be fun, or shooting at each other in a videogame deathmatch, but in the end we have a difference of opinion on many subjects – mine based in reality and real facts..., and yours based in...well, let's be nice and call it schizophrenia or indoctrination.
I do not seek to silence you. I want you to understand equality between all people is a good thing for everyone. That's all.
If I can get you to agree with that, hey, I guess we'd have made some progress, but your ideological outlook is being determined by other people instead of you using your own noggin to decide things for yourself.
I cannot blame you for your mental weakness even though I might shoot insults your way – it is just my way of expressing my frustration in a non-violent way and it is also for the sorts of people who would read my words as well. It's not all about you when I toss insults your way.
The human brain reacts in certain ways depending on many factors. We need to live together in peace or a more limited conflict at least. To this end I fight for equal rights for you and for me. Perhaps this sounds familiar to you, perhaps not.
With equal rights, we can live individually free lives that respect others.
If you want my respect, you have it only insofar as you are equal to me. No more, no less, at least in theory. I can only try.
Mark from Middle River
I just remembered your little comment about atheism and autism back on page 25. You never did clarify how you felt about autistic people. Care to now?
Mark my piddle river–it's running down my leg doesn't have the ability to engage honestly in debate, apparently.. the only poster who might give him a run for this money on dishonest debating is Kalessin.. Mark cares nothing about the debate, but only pulling others completely off topic on absolutely stupid sh!t that has nothing to do with anything.. Oh, and he'll lie for absolutely no reason at all, too.
@momoya
No worries here. I know how Mark operates. I've talked to him before and read many of his posts in passing. He is not completely lost to reason I think. Even Sauron was not evil in the beginning. Mark was probably a nice kid who just grew into having some problems in how he deals with other people. I don't know of anyone who does not have some sort of problem in that respect.
I'm just looking for some signs that he might be more willing to do the right thing instead of the stuff he does now.
Call me a troll if you like, but I know everyone has some basic humanity in them or they wouldn't be humans to start with.
>>>”Anyone who wants pre-eminence over another in some way is going to be uncomfortable with any effort to level the playing field.”
Hi Jeanine.
>>>”Anyone who wants pre-eminence over another in some way is going to be uncomfortable with any effort to level the playing field.”
I agree but at the same time I think about during Christmas time or at a graduation. A group of students wish to pray but because a smaller group feels offended. While I understand the Atheist feelings and feel that accomondations should be made, oppressing the other students from praying is not giving an equal playing ground, it is giving pre-eminence of the Atheist child over the child of Faith. Same could also be argued with Affermative action, should not the best student be admitted not the other just because he or she is a minority?
Society is full of these instances and it is not always leveling the field.
>>>”As to getting a "room", it would have to be an online chat room. I'm a militant extremist, remember?”
Funny, I was thinking about that hotel room. One would want to read from the Bible in the room and the other would be attempting to light candles and the fireplace with it.
But seriously, reality is what some make of it. While one side can not show proof there is not a God the other side can not show proof there is a God or Gods.
>>>”I cannot blame you for your mental weakness even though I might shoot insults your way – it is just my way of expressing my frustration in a non-violent way and it is also for the sorts of people who would read my words as well. It's not all about you when I toss insults your way.”
My desire is drawn from history Jeanie. Before every great event such as a “Kristallnacht” the first things that are tossed about are words. I disagree with you on many issues but I have learned that one must temper their words because we do not know what nuts are reading these blogs at home or in a office. That you toss insults at me does not harm me but at the same time history has shown over and over that before you destroy a group of people the act of dehumanization has to come first. Christian history has shown this on many occasions towards those who are not Christians or not Christians of a certain sect.
I believe in a level playing field but the society of financial status now days defines that. To me the middle is more about finding common grounds, common interest and goals and common hates. Like someone said, the 9/11 attacks did more good for the country than many realize. That they targeted us not as Christians, Atheist or any other group but that the terrorist saw the greater bond that many of us had forgotten in our constant cultural wars, is what was surprising. They even knew there were Muslims in the towers but that they were American Muslims was enough to doom them.
I believe you might believe you are in the middle Jeanine but to be in the middle to be striving for tolerance in society does not include insults of “mental weakness” as you have tossed around. I have met quite a few Atheist here on the Belief blog. I can not consider myself seeking peace while at the same time telling them that they are destined for eternal suffering ...but they can change. To me, it is between them and God(s). What I want to do is to try to keep the peaceful dialogue going to keep the lines of communications open so that above all folks are humans and if they choose a path counter to mine then it is ok. Mother Teresa once stated that her purpose was not necessarily to convert folks to Catholicism. She stated that purpose was to make the Muslim a better Muslim. To make the Hindu a better Hindu and on and on. I am not here to convert but to urge both sides to drop the militant rhetoric as much as one guy can do.
>>>”expressing my frustration in a non-violent way”
And we can see from the major push these days in society, cyber bullying is still bullying. Like I said, I can take it but it does concern me that instead of debating and discussion..points and counter points, you felt that tossing insults would work better against me. What do/did you expect me to do, return in kind? If you had just said that you were frustrated then that is enough.
Respect does not come when you come in and throw the opening punch Jeanine. Read my text, I am a FoxNews Christian Republican. I could spend my free time on Christian blogs were folks all agree that God is number one Rah Rah Rah!! ….
..but that would be boring. I thought all Atheist were militant until I came here and founds ones who were not and peace can be found.
There is a way forward and it begins when we decide. 🙂
Cq. I will later... typing this now in class 🙂
>>>”I just remembered your little comment about atheism and autism back on page 25. You never did clarify how you felt about autistic people. Care to now?”
I remember I said this about TomTom's posting style.
“Good Grief, I forgot about Asperger’s syndrome. It does explain a great many of TomTom's post. I didn't think it was just her old age going.”
Cq, the statement I will hold in a joking almost serious way. The style of uncontrolled insult filled and swearing posts that TomTom makes does lend to a mild Asperger type of symptom. When pressed on issues or if anyone dares to tell her she is wrong and she goes off the rails like Rev Terry Nichols when speaking of Gays and Lesbians.
Does that mean I dislike or look down on all who suffer from Aspergers or similar. No. Do I look down on folks like TomTom for their inability to hold respectful dialogue... goodness Yes I do.
L'Chaim
You are insulting people who suffer from Asperger's Syndrome, you lame-brain. What part of that don't you get? Suppose I made a joke about your race and intelligence? Funny stuff, right?
You have yet to show any way in which I failed to make my arguments, you lying little sc@m-bag. When are you planning to do that? You claimed I 'came up short in a dialogue'( though you couldn't even spell the word in two attempts) and that I was "backed into a corner". When are you going to show exactly in what way I was "backed into a corner", you dishonest little sh!t? Don't even attempt to pretend that the phrase means anything other than that you think I couldn't argue my point and back my claims, because it's just going to reinforce exactly what Jeanine and momoya have already said about you–you're a slime-ball.
@Mark
If you agree that equal rights is a middle ground, then what the hell are you doing here?
Aren't you supposed to be over there with your GOP? Waaaay over there?
Do you not feel any conflict of interest? Are you completely numb to what the GOP has been doing?
I'm glad you're here, though. This is an extremely well-defended position here in the middle.
We are on top of a mountain. No one can assail us here.
A single path leads here and can be defended by an old woman with a broom.
No one can assail equal rights without cutting off their own, leaving them always below our position.
The mountain is flat on top.
This, over here past the fountain of truth, is the level playing field big enough for all of humanity.
There are goal posts here. People like the founding fathers and MLKjr brought us through a few of them.
There are always more goal posts. More things that need to be done to give equal rights to all.
Down below are the ones who do not want equality. They seek wealth at the expense of others, or power, or influence.
They keep people segregated, some of them want you to drink at a fountain with toilet water.
Don't you recognize them? They are the GOP over there, far to the right of people with common sense.
Equal Rights for ALL. That is what it says here. If you like the idea of being here, we'd love to have you.
You are not required to give up your religion here. You are free to pray all you like.
But you can't toss anyone out, either, just because they do not think or act like you do, unless it violates someone else's Equal Rights. We all have to accept some common-sense limitations on our rights here or we would fall down the mountain-side to join in the madness below.
What do you think, Mark? Are you really for Equal Rights or are you just giving lip-service to the ideal?
Are you a Republican that way, too? Making some noises but not really feeling worked up about it?
Mark, I like you enough to worry about your safety.
Your GOP is against equality, against civil rights of any sort for people like you and me.
When I am discriminated against, I remember all the other times it happened to me, and it all bubbles up again and I get very angry at the unfairness of being treated unequally simply because of the way I look, or the things I believe, or anything else that sets me apart in such a way that others can't hardly help themselves in treating me badly.
Well, that a psychological thing, and I use my understanding of psychology to forgive them, for they truly do not understand what they do, nor could they as long as they are under the spell of whatever prejudice fills their minds when they look at me or hear me or read my words. You and I are not free of prejudice just because we want equal rights. We have our weaknesses to fight, too.
This is the middle ground. It's not comfortable. It's not about letting people run hither and yon doing whatever they want, because that would lead to violations of other people's rights.
And I'm sorry to tell you, if you haven't figure this out, that there are no Republicans here. None. Nada. Not a single one.
I want to level the playing field for all people. This means raising the poor out of poverty, feeding the hungry, teaching everyone with an equal education that has enough flexibility to allow equal rights at the individual level.
And it means giving everyone as much equal health care as we can.
Those government programs did not happen in a vacuum. There was a real perceived need to care for the elderly, to provide savings to people who could not save any other way, to provide health care as a basic human right.
Levelling the playing field would also mean cutting down the rich even as we raise the poor.
We don't have to make changes all at once, all the way, completely throwing society into a tizzy.
Government tends to work incrementally on purpose to ensure a "cooling off period" that gives everyone time to make sure they didn't get caught up in a bunch of hype or make some other mistake.
What's that? Did you hear that? Your friends are calling you back.
They sound desperate even though they have crushed almost all opposition to their tyranny and degrading oppression.
Ignore them, if you would be so kind, Mark.
Their hype is designed to distract you from seeking justice, from seeking equality under the law.
Equal Rights must depend on the law. Why? Because you cannot trust the average human being to act in any particular way.
And we already have Equal Rights enshrined in our Constltution.
Equal Rights that are supposed to be the Supreme Law of the Land.
When MLKjr marched through the South, and ending in D.C., he was marching to restore what had never been enforced – the Equal Rights protections in our Constltution.
All those founding fathers lived in a culture of extreme prejudice, many owning slaves, many engaging in religious violence and forming theocracies in each of the original Colonies.
Yet in the end, they were able to set their differences aside for a moment, long enough to fight their differences instead of each other and to do this they had to level their playing field because no one wanted their neighbors or enemies to have pre-eminence over them while being willing to accept the same restrictions on their rights.
Unfortunately, as soon as they signed it, they ignored it except in the more extreme cases, but this was enough to bring a great deal of peace for the Colonies. Yet Equal Rights, to them, most often meant that they had rights that they would defend.
Most of them were not willing to fight for the rights of others. So they continued to own slaves, to form lynching parties against anyone they liked, not just blacks.
Back up here in modern times, we see we have come a great distance, but we do not have Equal Rights even now.
I fight from here. Nobody lives here.
As a position, I have the Supreme Law to back me up. I have a level playing field to fight for. I have to fight against people who do not like others to have Equal Rights, like the GOP.
But no one lives here, yet it is a beautiful place worth defending. It is built on the love I have for all people.
No matter what you may think of my motives or tactics, this place is better than myself. I want this place to be the place everyone lives in their hearts and minds.
It's not "heaven", and it is not a comfortable place....but it is a good place and oh, so easily defended.
Why are you here, Mark?
Why would a Republican seek to violate the extremist agenda of the GOP by supporting equal rights?
I want to raise you where you are low and lower you where you are too high.
What does the GOP want? It wants to gut our government.
It wants to destroy the minimal help our govt gives to poor people no matter what they look like.
It wants to kill the weak, to destroy their lives piece by piece, leaving them nothing, not even their lives.
The GOP wants to give wealth to the wealthy and destroy the poor.
Where is your love for people, Mark? Why do you not want to help people?
The GOP also hates the law as well as the government. Don't you know what is behind such a stance?
They would gladly poison your whole family, Mark, and laugh all the way to the bank with your money.
They don't want to protect anything but their own private castles built with blood and hate.
Their mindset is a feudal mindset. There is NO equality in a feudal system, Mark.
Haven't you heard the things they say? And yet you remain a Republican out of some strange sense of loyalty to a bunch of overweight rich bigots who are mostly white and still prejudiced. The Civil Rights marches made them mad. Real mad.
Are you still not convinced? You are free, Mark. As free as Equal Rights can make you without being enforced.
The GOP took care of that when they shot MLKjr. or are you so simple-minded that it never occurred to you to do any background investigating or take the time to see where the hate came from?
Because you seem to see hate everywhere without a clue as to where most of it is coming from.
Just read your own posts. You assume anyone who hates is a hater who is going to start a new Holocaust.
That's just stupid.
Equal rights. It's the middle ground because literally anyone can come here to fight for equality.
Anyone at all. All it takes is a willingness to respect other people.
All that is required to respect other people is love and empathy and sympathy for them.
But where is the respect for the poor? I've got it. Do you? It's all right here on the middle ground of Equal Rights.
The GOP has tons of traitors running most of the show. They seek the downfall of our country. They are not for Equal Rights.
I'm not saying they're the only ones. But they are the worst and the biggest enemy around.
And I just gave you, a member of their white racist club, a free tour of the middle ground, yet I am not worried.
You simply cannot win against Equal Rights. This place is that strong. It doesn't matter if one of their main Confederate generals reads my words. I have nothing to hide here and I welcome everyone to join me here.
Where is Jesus in your heart, Mark? Will you continue to oppress the poor and seek their destruction?
Will you continue to support new Jim Crow laws? Are you a hopeless case? I hope not.
Are you going to have that chip on your shoulder for the rest of your life?
With Equal Rights, you can take that chip and shove it into some racist hater's face. Fight along with me Mark.
If you do, I would only ask that you stop using dishonest arguments as a favor to me and because it's the right thing to do.
Not gonna force ya. But most of the anger at you is because of your dishonesty and refusal to be open in your arguments.
Don't be like Lycidas. One person like that is two people too many like that. If nothing else, try being relaxed and stop feeling threatened. You might protest, but it fairly screams from almost every post of yours.
Maybe you don't see it. Lots of us do, though. Are we all wrong? No.
You are just needing some time to evaluate and think about why you do and say the things you do and say.
Hopefully, you will be insightful enough to stretch and grow past all that old stuff in your head. I had to try, anyway.
You are too important to leave to your own devices. But it is often the hardest thing to accept outside criticism.
If I just made you dig in deeper, that's okay. I knew the risks.
If I can get you to think deeper thoughts, then we are winning together.
Okay, done now. Peace2All would like my post today, I think. I haven't seen his posts in ages. Does he ever show up?
I don't hang around much at times and haven't seen but a few hints of what might be his style.
Peace.
Some have not learned the art of brevity. I stop reading after the first paragraph.
Sure you did, just lyin. But that was because of all those long words you were too lazy to look up.
@Tom
I don't know what to say to you after all that typing I just did beyond get a fcking grip and quit acting like that.
You're worse than Mark, I swear.
>>>”...then what the hell are you doing here?
As I wrote.….event such as a “Kristallnacht”. This is why I am here.
>>>”Aren't you supposed to be over there with your GOP? Waaaay over there?Do you not feel any conflict of interest? Are you completely numb to what the GOP has been doing?
That would be if the GOP were all in lockstep with their views. Just like Dems, there are many factions in the GOP and I am just one part of them. Just like when the Gay Republicans pushed through for the end of “Don't Ask Don't tell”, and you have Bill Clinton telling his friends that a few years ago Obama, a Harvard grad, would have been bringing him coffee.....folks are not as black or white or Left or Right as those on the extreme feel we are.
Also, I am a FoxNews guy but why spend time with just with those that see things your way. I like to see and hear many different views and opinions. I used to think all Atheist were some evil menace but after coming here to the Belief Blog, speaking and sharing dialogue, I have found that all Atheist are absolutely not the same. Maybe in some ways I hope to demonstrate that all Republicans and more importantly all Faithful are not the same. 🙂
>>>”They keep people segregated, some of them want you to drink at a fountain with toilet water.
Don't you recognize them? They are the GOP over there, far to the right of people with common sense.”
They are also the Liberal Dems who have tricked many in the African American community that only the Dems can save us. Try this, look at Africa. For years Liberals have been handing out wheat and sending over students to build wells in African communities. We see the videos of the Africans so happy that they have bags of wheat and a single well in the village but then the Liberals stop. The Chinese come in, build hydroelectric plants, build cities and use a lot of the Africans to help build it. Now goods, industries, and infrastructure are growing in Africa. We turn on BBC and NPR, what do we hear from the Liberals.... oh China is wrong because they are destroying the African tribal culture. Its as if a part of the Liberal community want to help Africans and other minorities but do not want to raise them up to the level of the rest of the world.
Remember, more was done in Africa to combat AIDS by GW Bush than both Clinton or Obama. Why is that?
>>>”What do you think, Mark? Are you really for Equal Rights or are you just giving lip-service to the ideal?”
Equal rights is an interesting concept but at the same time it is not what makes the Middle Ground the Middle Ground. You find a way to take greed and capital out of the societal equation you might be on your way. The middle is and has always had a bedrock in tolerance. Tolerance for views and people.
>>>”Mark, I like you enough to worry about your safety.Your GOP is against equality, against civil rights of any sort for people like you and me.”
...and Obama had two years with a veto proof Congress and for the right to serve our country gay or Straight... it took the Republicans to push it through. I listen, often to Black centered talk radio and even within the African American community there are some who question what Obama has failed to do for our people. Even the LGBT communities have posed this question. I have to question how you can claim that the GOP is against Civil Rights but at the same time Obama and the Dems do not seem to be doing anything either.
>>>”When I am discriminated against, I remember all the other times it happened to me, and it all bubbles up again and I get very angry at the unfairness of being treated unequally simply because of the way I look, or the things I believe,”
I can understand but I am a single African American male and it equally upsets me when I hear White Dems treat me that I can not exist in this society just because I am a Black male. There are many forms of racism and all of them do not involve guys with white sheets and burning crosses. It is also the belief that your race is so weak that it can not save itself. Check out the movie MalcolmX and the scene with the White girl, where she ask what can she do as a White person to help his movement. His response, “nothing”
But, like you said, I really do not believe they do it on purpose but it is systematic.
>>>”None. Nada. Not a single one.”
That is why I know that you are not in the Middle Jeanine. I think your GPS has you across the street. We have Republicans, We have Democrats. There are Atheist and Faithful here. Blacks, whites and many different minorities. In the middle it is mostly about tolerance. That we can agree to disagree. That I can hold my beliefs and you can hold your Non-Belief and I do not call you stupid for it. The thing about the center is that to be in it you have to be able to share space with those that you might not agree with but you learn to tolerate them and to ultimately co-exist.
I mean you are close and I feel your heart is in it but in the Middle, I am afraid not. 🙂
>>>”I want to level the playing field for all people.”
You could have all the rights your heart desires Jeanine, but what are your tools to fight the bank accounts of those richer. I mean, you could go with the “flat tax” approach. My father came to the conclusion, before he pasted away that the evil of racism that he had been fighting all of his life was trumped by greed of cash. We have internal divisions within the African American community where the playing fields are not level and that is one black over another black.
This is why your desire to level the playing field, I do not feel is a Race or a Religion issue. It is a money issue. Either by having more than your neighbor or by taxing it away from him.
>>>”Levelling the playing field would also mean cutting down the rich even as we raise the poor.”
Maybem, if we could get a definition of “poor” and “rich” that we all in society could agree on. I have a friend who is well into 6 figure income and with his wifes pay they are comfortably into the six figure. Are they rich? I am not as well paid, but I have a vehicle, food in my refridgerator and home that I own... am I rich? One guy might be worth a million and across from him is a lady worth billions. It all boils down to our society might feel that they want to punish the successful or ones born of success, and if all of the rich were Bernie Madoff then maybe we would. The thing is, is that in that “rich” mix are folks like Jay-Z, Oprah and Bill Gates, who worked hard and took the risk and succeeded. We as a society have issues saying we will cut down the rich when we know that all are not Madoff and some are Al Gores.
>>>”Government tends to work incrementally”
Ok, now my Republican danger alert just went into high gears 🙂
>>>”They sound desperate even though they have crushed almost all opposition to their tyranny and degrading oppression.”
Yeah, you mean like when the Liberal Dems go after Happy Meals and Cigarrettes. I heard their new war is on sugar as a whole and they want to “tax” foods to force you to think like they do about a legal substance.
So, no that's not my mom Sarah Palin calling... I think that's your mom Nancy Pelosi calling you. 😀
>>>”Equal Rights must depend on the law. Why? Because you cannot trust the average human being to act in any particular way.”
So, wait... since the laws are made by average humans then how can we completely trust the laws made by average humans. Unless you feel that politicians, of both parties, are somehow above average to you, me and the rest of society.
>>>”Yet in the end, they were able to set their differences aside for a moment, long enough to fight their differences instead of each other “
Welcome to the Middle Jeanine, we have jackets 🙂
>>>”Why are you here, Mark?”
As I wrote.….event such as a “Kristallnacht”. This is why I am here.
>>>”Why would a Republican seek to violate the extremist agenda”
Gotcha. I have heard this type of statement before. I have had Whites asked by fellow African Americans why were they at a Martin Luther King or Civil Rights memorial. Why are they going against the the extremist racist agenda that they feel all White Americans face. As if every White person has a klan membership. I have also seen the stares of some in society when 9/11 memorials come around and a Muslim walks into the room. Is your view of the Middle Jeanine defined by the extremist in each group. Remember the Dems had Robert Byrd who was in the past a grand wizard of the klan.
But, your statement also reminds me of when Christopher Hitchens died and the Belief Blog ran an article that was written by a Christian friend of Hitchens. Some Atheist made the same statement that you did of how could a Christian have a mutual friendship with such a staunch Atheist let alone memorialize him. Then when the Faithful came in and gave respectful rest in peace messages, some Atheist went nuts.
There have been Atheist who have stated here that churches should be bombed and burned to the ground. Is this not a extremist Atheist view? You see Jeanine, this is the true Middle ground in which I judge you by you and you alone. I could care less about other Atheist as much as I care about the ones standing in front of me.
>>>”What does the GOP want? It wants to gut our government.”
If they feel the Government is holding people down and punishing us when we suceed and grown to reach into more and more of our lives, then yeah I can understand them. For us we would ask you Jeanine where is your love for your common man? Is your faith more in those we send to Washignton or in ourselves as a society. Faith in that the Government was what the Jews in Germany counted on and they counted wrong.
>>>”They would gladly poison your whole family, Mark, and laugh all the way to the bank with your money”
….and the damage the left has done to the African American family with welfare has been presented in many Black forums. A system that rewards when you have more kids and the father is NOT in the home.
This is fun...
>>>>”They don't want to protect anything but their own private castles built with blood and hate.
Their mindset is a feudal mindset. There is NO equality in a feudal system, Mark.”
Jeanine, did you see the Rosie Odonnell verse Tom Seleck interview where she felt that it was ok for her family to have armed security but that rest of us should not have the right to protect our families with firearms. It is interesting in that again... it is money Jeanine. The carbon footprint of Al Gores property in Tennesee is higher than that of G.W.Bush's entire property in Texas. Also, his family buiness is Tabacco …. thats a person on the left who's castle was built with the lives of many not only Americans but of those around the world. I would hold that there are castles on both sides and us poor folks on both as well.
>>>”Haven't you heard the things they say? And yet you remain a Republican out of some strange sense of loyalty to a bunch of overweight rich bigots who are mostly white and still prejudiced. The Civil Rights marches made them mad. Real mad.”
Hmm... Al Sharpton and Rush Limbaugh are the same size... and if we are fair the Democrats, such as Al Gore's father .. a Dem voted against the Civil Rights act. JF Kennedy, did he sign the Civil Rights act? Did he even meet with MLK. Records now show that he distrusted MLK to a point that Jackie disliked him and his brother had MLK monitored. Seems that the Left Dems had issues with the Civil Rights movement as well.
>>>”Just read your own posts. You assume anyone who hates is a hater who is going to start a new Holocaust. That's just stupid.”
Sadly, anyone who hates ...as you say … is a person of hate and a new Holocaust is only a mob away. Check history if you doubt.
>>>”Equal rights. It's the middle ground because literally anyone can come here to fight for equality.”
I disagree... tolerance and a desire for co-existence is and will always be the middle ground.
>>>”But where is the respect for the poor? I've got it. Do you? :
Question, at my church we have fund rasier events to help the poor. Car washes and pledge drives. If we asked you to come and help out, to raise funds for the community, could you?
>>>”they seek the downfall of our country.”
Yah ...they say the same about Obama. That's the words of those on the extreme Jeanine and they are words of you. 🙁
>>>”I'm not saying they're the only ones. But they are the worst and the biggest enemy around.
And I just gave you, a member of their white racist club, a free tour of the middle ground, yet I am not worried.”
Yeah, the tolerance and co-existance is ripe here.... I am worried for you Jeanine because your views are not of tolerance just a peace that comes when all who hold different views are destroyed. Destruction and death fall in the wake of folks such as yourself.
>>>”doesn't matter if one of their main Confederate generals reads my words.”
Hmm... General Lee freed his slaves but since Lincolns emancipation only applied to those states in the South... there were slave owning Generals in the North.
Wow, I like your style Jeanine. The basics are that co-existence and tolerance are my goals. Co-existence with Atheist, and their co-existence with the Faith community. We can turn this into a equal rights issue, and I want it but you asked me why I am here and that is it. I do not want to have some poor school child reading about another “ Kristallnacht”, and if it takes me extending my hand in friendship to as many folks as I can then I feel it was and is all totally worth it.
If a Black Power guy can be brought to the understanding that all Whites are not racist...as MalcolmX did towards the end of his life , or a Atheist such as Christopher Hitchens has a friend who is a Christian then your lumping and defining the total of the Republicans by the extremes becomes, with reason... silly. To many from too many groups find ways to get along and your stance is not a stance of someone in the middle.
As I said …. There is another way. If Hitchens and Malcolm can find it, then it is not beyond your ability to find also my friend.
L'Chaim.
@Jeanine: What in the h3ll are you talking about?
@Mark and Jeanine-
Seriously folks...less is more.
...
Mark from Middle River
I know some folks with Aspergers and I don't see them insulting people so much as being brutally honest with them. If anything they lack the tact to treat religious beliefs with the same respect others would treat opinions on spouse's beauty, for example. Some, including myself, find their ways rather refreshing. If there is any topic that deserves to be striped of it's protective veil of respect it's religion. Tom Tom is just challenging your beliefs, and I don't think that she need have Aspergers to feel compelled to do that.
@Tom
Sorry, I was just worn out from all that typing and all that.
@Mark
And so you reveal yourself. Thanks for playing, sucka! 😀
>>>"Tom Tom is just challenging your beliefs, and I don't think that she need have Aspergers to feel compelled to do that."
Ahh, it is not the challenging of Beliefs that is the issue but the venom of her post when she is challenged. It is not counter points she offers but just post of insults. It is more like Aspergers. I have encountered ones with such as patients and her anger is very similar.
@Mark
Now I know what sort of person you are...even more than I did before. Like I said, you are lazy and dumb and a sleazeball.
Hey, I tried to be nice, but a racist hater like you will always slap it away, I guess.
Oh, well. I had fun typing.
And I am a troll. Just a better one than you, so you can't see it from down there, punk.
Go ahead and make some more of your usual kissy noises even though it reveals your true invertebrate nature. We've all seen your dishonest sleazy ways. I give up on you. You truly are a hopeless case and as disgusting and vile as could be.
Ok Jeanine. I just disagree and I read your entire post so I wonder how I can be both lazy and respect enough to do so.
I am interested, what was dishonest about my post? I tried to address most of your post.
Thanks 🙁
So Mark is a Black Supremacist. Somehow I am not all that surprised.
And he wants to kill all the white people that he hates with a rabid rage.
"Nothing" will save you white folk naow! Ooohhhh1!
Yeah, whit.ey chick! Do "nothing" but DIE!!
Yep. A black Stormfront. A black Nazi. A hater who hates so bad he wants to kill and hates equality with his victims and hates p;oor people and all them other black folk who won't give him any moneeee! Oh, poor baby!!!
Yeah, you'd better kill everyone. That'll make it all go away.
What a sick hater. I hope the FBI is keeping tabs on you. No wonder you hang around CNN. One day you'll get your Black "Krystallnacht" and won't it be murder, though?
Don't drop the soap, mark. unless you like that sort of thing. They make you spread your cheeks every day in Federal Prison.
>>>"So Mark is a Black Supremacist. "
So where did you get that? Wow, that is a major whoops on your part. Please show that part.
@Mark the Black Hater Supremacist
Awwwww, what's wrong? You hungry baby?
Just want to see where you got that Black Supremacist part from. Its a new angle, and from a person that has been called a Uncle Tom and a Oreo cookie for most of his life... a new one.
Please, show me where you got it from.
@Mark the Black Hater Supremacist
My! Aren't you a hungry racist troll! Well, we'd better let you have some more, then.
Tell me, Mark, are you just a white Stormf.ag pretending to be black or are you really black?
So which is it, you racist puke? You gonna hunt me down now and kill the whit.ey bi.tch cracka or what?
Please, show me where you got it from. I mean, you had potential Jeanine. You even started to sound cute. I just commented on all your points, didn't fold, and now you are going the angry troll post route?
Why Jeanine? Now, I am a Black Supremacist? Come on Jeanine don't dip down to this level. You had promise.
@Mark the Black Hater Supremacist
Don't bother trying to cover it up, Mark. Don't you hate it when you post and can't go back to delete stuff you let slip?
It's all there in ...yes..what you hate to see together.
Brother Malcom showed you the way, huh?
You know, I got that bit about Federal Prison from reading a book by a guy who got sent there.
Let me just tell you that you will not have a single orifice in your body that will not be probed, examined, and violated.
And that's just their security procedures.
That doesn't include what the ones you hate will do to you if they can just get a single hand on you.
Federal Prison is where they send the worst haters like you, Mark. Won't I be glad to see you go, though!
The only problem is it will not happen soon enough to suit me!
>>>"Brother Malcom showed you the way, huh?"
Wow, Jeanine..... really? Sigh, show me where I said it. 🙂
Come on kid... I asked for where I said it and you are silent to cut and paste the proof. Admit it that you read it wrong and now have seen your error and know that you are trapped and trapped well.
🙂 ... this is when debates get crazy fun, when you have your target trapped.
@Jeanine: I can sympathize with your fatigue; however, I still do not understand why you're attempting to slap my wrists. I've been on your side all along.
What's your problem with my post?
How's it feel, Piddler? Good for Jeanine. She's got you on the ropes and rightly so. She's about 40 points ahead of you in the IQ department, and as far as education goes, you're never going to catch up.
@Slimy Mark, Racist Hater and Murderer
Gosh, this IS fun! I haven't had you sounding this desperate before! Wow.
Is that nervous sweat running down your leg?
Something wrong, Mark? Didn't get your black copy of Stormfront magazine? Poor kid.
I wonder, too, Piddler, how you're enjoying it when you request proof of someone's claims about you and you get zip in return. Nice, ain't it?
Good for you. Slurp it up, little piggy.
Yes this is fun. You have TomTom wanting begging to be your friend and wanting to know why you slapped her hand.
Should let you know where you stand Jeanine 🙂
@Tom
Sorry, Tom, I was just tired and had got you mixed up with just lyin'. My eyeballs were tired.
Please don't worry about it, as it was a mistake.
Not as bad as Mark's mistake, though. Ha! I'd been wondering if he wasn't like that, but when he talks so clearly about it all I can do is cringe and wonder if he's already killed someone. What a sicko.
@Mark, the Black Supremacist who wants to murder white chicks.
Awwwwwww, you still hungry? Poor little racist. Can't get people to respect his sorry racist ass. Too bad, Mark, you've done it now. There's no going back.
You can't erase your posts. That's the neat thing about CNN, you see. You show your true colors for all time. Racist pig.
No problem, Jeanine. Thanks for the clarification.
Good on you for putting the Piddler on the ropes.
>>>"You can't erase your posts. That's the neat thing about CNN, you see. You show your true colors for all time. Racist pig."
All you have to do, if you want to use TomTom's example to finally put me to the mat .... cut and paste where you feel I was a racist. I got you Jeanine.... just like I got TomTom.... all you have to do is simple and since yah' can't ... you lose. 🙂
Just like TomTom.
Ahahhahhha!
The smell of your desperation is cloying, Piddles.
I think I hear someone calling you to change a diaper.
@Jeanine: pretty funny watching the Piddler twist in the wind, demanding that you cut and paste proof of anything when the same moron can't follow his own protocol.
Really, quite a hoot.
Geez I was so busy cut and pasting this exchange to others that I missed.
but... Jeanine, it is funny that your friend is TomTom. Should let you know that your stance is trollish at best. 😀
@Tom
Isn't it sad when Black Supremacists get desperate? All the words are right there. I'm not bluffing, bullshltting or lying in any way. He's said it straight out clear enough so that I'm convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt.
He can't stand being caught. Well tough t.tties for him.
Well, time to let him twist in the wind. Ta ta! I'm outa here. Have a great day, Tom!
Oh, so you know how to cut and paste, Kindergarten Cop? How about cutting and pasting the evidence that I was "backed into a corner"?
Yeah, as if there is any.
You are a funny little doofus.
Spot on, Jeanine! You nailed him big time.
See you in the funny papers next time the Piddler gets a hard-on about himself.
Yep... and I finished you off the other night ... and Jeanine this night. See you a few pages up TomTom.
I will continue to take the wind out of the sails of folks like you. 🙂