May 13th, 2012
01:07 PM ET

Across country, black pastors weigh in on Obama's same-sex marriage support

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

Washington (CNN) - Addressing his large, mostly black congregation on Sunday morning, the Rev. Wallace Charles Smith did not mince words about where he stood on President Barack Obama's newly announced support for same-sex marriage: The church is against it, he said, prompting shouts of "Amen!" from the pews.

And yet Smith hardly issued a full condemnation of the president.

"We may disagree with our president on this one issue," Smith said from the pulpit of the Shiloh Baptist Church in Washington. "But we will keep him lifted up in prayer. ... Pray for President Barack Obama."

And Smith said there were much bigger challenges facing the black community - "larger challenges that we have to struggle with" - bringing his full congregation to its feet, with many more amens.

Days after Obama announced his personal support for same-sex marriage, pastors across the country offered their Sunday-morning opinions on the development, with the words of black pastors - a key base of support for Obama in 2008, that is also largely opposed to gay marriage - carrying special weight in a presidential election year.But black pastors were hardly monolithic in addressing Obama's remarks.

In Baltimore, Emmett Burns, a politically well-connected black minister who said he supported Obama in 2008, held an event at Rising Sun Baptist Church to publicly withdraw support from the president over Obama's same-sex marriage support.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

"I love the president, but I cannot support what he has done," Burns said at the church.

In an interview with CNN, Burns predicted that Obama's support for legalized same-sex marriage would lead to his defeat in November.

The Rev. Calvin Butts, an influential black pastor in New York City, did not endorse Obama's views but denounced those who are ready to "watch others be discriminated against, marginalized, and literally hated in the name of God."

"Our God is love," he said.

And like Smith in Washington, plenty of black ministers talked about distinguishing between opposition to same-sex marriage and views about Obama.

"I don't see how you cannot talk about it," the Rev. Tim McDonald, based in Atlanta, said earlier this week. "I have to. You can say I'm opposed to it (same-sex marriage), but that doesn't mean I'm against the president."

Though African-Americans provided Obama with record support in 2008, they are also significantly more likely to oppose same-sex marriage than are whites. That may be because black Americans are more likely to frequently attend church than white Americans.

A Pew Research Center poll conducted in April found that 49% of African-Americans oppose legalized same-sex marriage, compared with 39% who support it. Among whites, by contrast, Pew found that 47% supported gay marriage, while 43% opposed it.

African-American pastors have been prominent in the movement to ban same-sex marriage. In North Carolina, black leaders helped lead the successful campaign for a constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage and domestic partnerships.

In California, 70% of African-Americans supported Prop 8, the 2008 state gay marriage ban, even though 94% of black voters in California backed Obama.

McDonald, who founded a group called the African-American Ministers Leadership Council, says he opposes same-sex marriage, but that he is more concerned about issues such as health care, education and jobs.

But he says more black pastors are talking about same-sex marriage than ever before. "Three years ago, there was not even a conversation about this issue," McDoland says. "There wasn't even an entertainment of a conversation about this."

In Atlanta, at the historic Ebenezer Baptist Church - where Martin Luther King Jr. got his start - the Rev. Ralph Warnock addressed the president's remarks near the end of his sermon.

"The president is entitled to his opinion," Warnock said. "He is the president of the United States, not the pastor of the United States."

Warnock said that there is a place for gays in the church, and that "we don't have to solve this today."

Black churchgoers on Sunday appeared split on same-sex marriage, though many of those opposed to it said they still supported Obama.

"It's a human rights issue, not a gay issue. All people that pay taxes should get ... the same privileges and rights," said Terence Johnson, a congregant at Salem Bible Church in Atlanta.

At Shiloh Baptist in Washington, Shauna King said she does not support same-sex marriage, but that she respects the president's decision on it.

"I think he was very honest in what he was saying and personally he decided to do that," said the 38-year-old mother of two. "As individuals, we all have to make that decision for ourselves."

"I believe it speaks to what America is," she said. "That we all have different views and are respected for our views individually."

Black opposition to same-sex marriage has dropped dramatically in recent years. In 2008, Pew found that 63% of African-Americans opposed gay marriage, 14 percentage points higher than the proportion who expressed opposition this year.

On Friday, a handful of black leaders, including the Rev. Al Sharpton and former NAACP leader Julian Bond, released a letter supporting Obama's position on same-sex marriage but expressing respect for those who disagree.

"The president made clear that his support is for civil marriage for same-sex couples, and he is fully committed to protecting the ability of religious institutions to make their own decisions about their own sacraments," the letter said.

"There will be those who seek to use this issue to divide our community," it continued. "As a people, we cannot afford such division."

But the letter itself was an implicit acknowledgement of discord within the African-American church community on gay marriage.

Black pastors who preach in favor of same-sex marriage know they may pay a price if they take Obama's position, says Bishop Carlton Pearson.

The Chicago-based black minister says he lost his church building and about 6,000 members when he began preaching that gays and lesbians were accepted by God.

"That's the risk that people take," he told CNN. "A lot of preachers actually don't have a theological issue. It's a business decision. They can't afford to lose their parishioners and their parsonages and salaries."

Pearson navigates the tension between the Bible's calls for holiness and justice this way: "I take the Bible seriously, just not literally," he says. "It's more important what Jesus said about God than what the church says about Jesus."

In Obama's interview with ABC this week, in which he announced his personal support for same-sex marriage, the president talked about squaring his decision with his personal religious faith.

"We are both practicing Christians, and obviously this position may be considered to put us at odds with the views of others," Obama said, referring to his wife, Michelle.

"But, you know, when we think about our faith, the thing at root that we think about is, not only Christ sacrificing himself on our behalf, but it's also the Golden Rule," he said. "Treat others the way you would want to be treated."

- CNN’s John Blake, Chris Boyette, Meridith Edwards, Dan Merica and Stephanie Siek contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: 2012 Election • Barack Obama • Gay marriage • Politics

soundoff (3,700 Responses)
  1. toak

    practice what u preach u have an election comming up too also watch out for the gay backlash because gays run the churches so dont pander for votes while trying to surpress yes supress the vote against our presidrnt

    May 15, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
  2. Snow

    It is funny to see religious people argue that the old testament is invalidated and "fulfilled" when christ came and preached the new testament.. So, they need not follow the arcane rules that call for people to kill disobedient child, or rape victim forced to marry her as.sailant and other bunk.

    But whenever it suits them, they have absolutely no shame or qualms about bending back a$$ wards and quote the OT as though it is as good a rule book as any and must be followed in completeness... Really? Hypocrisy, much?

    May 15, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • fred

      Jesus clearly stated he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Jesus is the Christ that takes away the sin of the world (the Passover lamb to the Hebrew), the hope, our high priest. The law was not able to take away the sin only point to our inability to keep the law (i.e. our sinful nature). Jesus said that I must leave so the Holy Spirit can come and dwell in the hearts of the believer bringing them to all truth.
      Here is the truth as you are constantly bringing up Old Testament laws on slaves. Slaves were a fact of that day and age. Slaves were treated terribly and it was the Hebrew because of Gods insistence that limits on cruelty were put in place. Rather than recognize their kind human nature relative to the population around them you chose to twist the scripture and claim God or the Bible somehow condones these acts. When an American history book records Custer killing Indians does this mean Obama is an Indian killer? Does it mean the book is a lie or killing Indians is wrong?

      May 15, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
    • momoya


      God could have easily put in a commandment that said: "Own thou not any person for any reason as do those godless heathens in the societies around you.". Instead, ja-whey gives instructions on how to own slaves and to just beat them within an inch of their life–not quite to death.. Take your silly rationalizations elsewhere.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm |
    • just sayin


      Jesus clearly stated he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. ........


      Actually you are wrong, there is no credible evidence that proves this. It is simply faith in man with a little wishful thinking on your part. Enjoy your delusion. God Bless

      May 15, 2012 at 5:25 pm |
    • Timber Joey

      @ Momoya
      " Instead, ja-whey gives instructions on how to own slaves and to just beat them within an inch of their life–not quite to death."

      It seems like you are not a Bible expert, but just need something to bash around to justify your beliefs. This is as old as the Bible, this thought process.

      We have a choice to believe or not. Thankfully. You may believe in yourself or your views all you wish. no one can take that away from you. I just pray your mind changes on your earthly death bed.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • Hmmm

      @Timber – “If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property" Exodus 21:20

      May 15, 2012 at 5:32 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      2 Timothy 3:16
      Everything in the Scriptures is God’s Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • Timber Joey


      If quoting this verse makes one believe that this is God condoning the behavior, they would be wrong.

      Christians and non-believers often misquote the Bible. Kinda like how our beloved athletes are misquoted all the time, but not exactly.

      I have misquoted the Bible many times, with well-meaning reasons. But it was still not in context. I am glad you read the bible though. 🙂

      May 15, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • fred

      "God could have easily put in a commandment that said: "Own thou not any person for any reason"
      =>interesting how all the godless ones continually stop reading where ever it suit them. How about you read the 14th verse of Harry Potter then say J. K. Rowling shoud have given Harry the plasma gun Ghost Busters used 15 years earlier?
      Did you actually read the whole Bible? Did you not notice that God did say "love your enemy" "love your neighbor as yourself"? Jesus was a living example did he beat any slaves ? READ THE WHOLE BOOK then comment

      May 15, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
    • just sayin

      "Jesus was a living example .. "
      Again, we need to point out there is no credible evidence of this.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
    • fred

      just sayin
      I suggest you start with the undisputed works of Paul (Saul of Tarsus) and see what he had to say about the Law and Jesus. Paul was a devout Jew and knew more about the Law than anyone today could possibly know.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • just sayin


      just sayin
      I suggest you start with the undisputed works of Paul (Saul of Tarsus) and see what he had to say about the Law and Jesus. Paul was a devout Jew and knew more about the Law than anyone today could possibly know.

      I suggest you rely on more credible evidence.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • Snow

      so, since OT rules are as important and needs to be followed,
      – how many disobiedient children did you kill?
      – how many adulterers did you kill?
      – how many slaves do you own?
      – how many idol worshipers did you kill?
      – how many non believers in jehwa did you kill?

      If you have not done any of the above, you have rejected god's set rules and quite obviously you are going to go burn in hell after you die.. 🙂 And unless you are a sociopath, you would not consider accepting any of the above rules either.

      so why continue to try sucking up to a god who will anyway reject you and cast you into the depths of hell for not following his rules?

      May 15, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
    • fred

      Fast forward 1,400 years as God said "if a man even thinks hateful thoughts he is guilty of murder". You bring up a tort remedy from Exodus not the word of God as to how one should treat others. If you beat a slave 3,400 years ago or today God has not changed one bit and you would be very wrong. If you believe in God it would be sin for you to beat another person in such a manner. Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord because he would never beat a slave in such a manner and the flood story speaks of how God brought him and his family through great storms because of that kindness and obedience.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • just sayin


      Fast forward 1,400 years as God said "if a man even thinks hateful thoughts he is guilty of murder". You bring up a tort remedy from Exodus not the word of God as to how one should treat others. If you beat a slave 3,400 years ago or today God has not changed one bit and you would be very wrong. If you believe in God it would be sin for you to beat another person in such a manner. Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord because he would never beat a slave in such a manner and the flood story speaks of how God brought him and his family through great storms because of that kindness and obedience.

      hmmmmmmmmmmm you have no credible evidence of any God talking. I am curious do you think the Earth is around 12k years old and that the whole Earth was flooded? Do you hear your God's voice?

      May 15, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • fred

      The U.S. Army scalped iindians does Obama as commander and chief?

      May 15, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Timber Joey


      It saddnes me that you feel this way. The Bible is the one book taken out of context.

      Jesus' way is very difficult, now doubt. If you want an easy life, stay away from the Bible. If however, you are a person of humility and Grace, you are following the Lord. But doing this is not easy or always fun, I'll give you that.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
    • HS

      Timber Joey


      It saddnes me that you feel this way. The Bible is the one book taken out of context.

      You speak lies. God's Word is perfect and cannot be taken out of context.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • Timber Joey


      Not sure why you are bashing me. Take a look at some of the posts. Bible is taken out of context.

      It is the perfect Word, no doubt. We, however, are not perfect in our understanding of the Word.

      May 15, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
    • fred

      You really think the Bible says I should kill; children, adulterers etc,? So why do you say this? You did pull these verses out of context. The context of the Bible is the word of God which includes what Jesus said. Words written in the Bible of Old contain much symbolism is it was more of picture language back 3,400 years ago. It was a language spoken in culture of nomadic tribes and times. Taken as a whole and not out of context we see adulterers are not condemned by God but forgiven and told to sin no more. As to children “fathers love your children and bring them up in the way of the Lord and they will be a blessing in your old years” “if anyone causes any of these children to stumble it would be better that they were never born” and the verses go on and on.
      Time to ask yourself why do you do this intentional twisting of the truth which you actually know better than I do!

      May 15, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • Excuses

      Excuses never make an good argument.. How come you want to interpret the words in context when it shows bad things in bible, but for things like same s.ex marriage its words are to be considered literally as it is quite "cut and dry" that it is wrong..

      Excuses, apologist words and attempt to defend a flawed 2000 yr old book is all I see.. nothing else.

      May 15, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • Timber Joey


      I love opinions. I dno't agree with yours, but I am glad I have the choice.

      We all have to serve something,; Money, Work, Cars etc.. I choose the Lord. Money won't get me into eternity. It does, however, buy some cool stuff while I am here! 🙂

      May 15, 2012 at 6:20 pm |
    • Timber Joey


      I love opinions. I don't agree with yours, but I am glad I have the choice.

      We all have to serve something,; Money, Work, Cars etc.. I choose the Lord. Money won't get me into eternity. It does, however, buy some cool stuff while I am here! 🙂

      May 15, 2012 at 6:21 pm |
    • momoya

      @ Timber JoeyMomoya

      It seems to me that instead of debating the issues, you'd rather accuse your opponents of "bashing belief."

      Belief isn't a choice.. If it was, nobody would believe in their own death or anyone else's.. A person is compelled to believe as he does.. The god of the bible is too cruel and stupid to be any god, much less a perfect one.

      May 15, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
    • Excuses

      I agree joey about opinions, but that does not answer any of the questions raised on this thread.. besides, you are not being a good christian if you are unable to bring heathens like me to your god with your awesome spiritual revelations.. 🙂 your god might not like that..

      May 15, 2012 at 6:40 pm |
    • fred

      Even hom-o$exual verses should not be taken out of context to suit the purpose of man or religion rather than truth. A gay marriage or a straight marriage that does not bring glory to God fall at the same speed. Sin is sin in the eyes of God. Jesus did not need to drag out a straight, a gay, transgender etc. in order to write something in the sand to those Pharisees’ that are ready to stone others. Read the Bible in the presence of the Holy Spirit and you will not go wrong. Read it with a personal agenda and you will find what you are looking for.

      May 15, 2012 at 8:00 pm |
  3. WASP

    here is an easy way to fix everything. outlaw marriage. period no more marriage allowed in america. when your live in partner dies the state gets their stuff. that takes care of all those nasty benefit laws as well......and let's not forget inheritence laws can go seeing you have no right to their stuff. what's good for one group is good for us all...........i know men will jump all over this one.

    May 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
    • GauisCaesar

      You obviously have no clue how estate laws work. The only 2 ways the state can take your stuff is 1) dying without a will and having no beneficiaries or 2) you owe your estate to the state for taxes

      May 15, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
  4. Poltergiest

    Really? Is it that incredibly hard to comprehend? Here's the TLDR version.

    1. Blacks support civil rights for everyone. Gays benefited just as much as other minorities.
    2. Marriage is not a civil right.
    3. Blacks aren't required to support gay marriage just because they fought for the civil rights of all minorities.
    4. In decades past, the churches you are condemning were key in securing your civil rights.

    I'm not sure where you got the bible claim from. I haven't said anything about what God thinks on anything. And finally it would be silly for a gay black person to stop supporting black rights because black churches don't support gay marriage. They can be discriminated against for being black. Talk about convoluted.

    May 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • momoya


      I think you're being stupid.

      1. Gays didn't benefit from civil rights in that they didn't get equality as the heteros did.
      2. Marriage provides benefits to those that are married; whether it's a "civil right" is irrelevant if gay couples don't have the same LEGAL OPPORTUNITIES as heteros.
      3. Blacks don't have to support gay marriage; they simply have to support gay marriage if they don't want to be AZZHOLE HYPOCRITES.
      4. Well good for them when they did, and shame on them for how they are acting now–like little pizzy bigots.

      Talk about convoluted; your arguments.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
    • Polergiest

      1. Gays got the same civil rights promised to every minority. It's the reason you can't be fired from a job or denied freedom of speech based on orientation.
      2. If benefits were the goal, they could just support civil unions and receive those benefits with a lot less political friction.
      3. Epic Straw Man
      4. Just because someone doesn't support your special interest doesn't make them a bigot.

      May 15, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • Robert Pope

      Marriage is a civil ceremony – so of course it's a civil right...

      May 15, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • JohnQuest

      Poltergiest, I suppose as an adult you have the Right to marry anyone you want, why can't another adults marry who they want?

      The law should apply to all equally, if it does not it is by definition discriminatory, would you agree?

      May 15, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • momoya

      1. No, gays didn't get the same civil rights as every other minority; they can't marry who they wish to marry. (lol)
      2. Who cares? Why should an individual support an organization that won't work towards the benefits of that individual?
      3. It's an "Epic Straw Man" to ask the civil rights movement to ONCE AGAIN DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE on gay marriage EXACTLY as it did in the case of SLAVERY? (lol)
      4. No, just because someone doesn't support your special interest doesn't make them a bigot; making bigoted decisions makes one a bigot.

      May 15, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • Peter

      "1. Gays got the same civil rights promised to every minority. It's the reason you can't be fired from a job or denied freedom of speech based on orientation."

      Federal laws. While no federal law prohibits this type of discrimination in private employment, an executive order specifically outlaws discrimination based on sexual orientation in the federal government.

      State laws. Almost half the states and the District of Columbia have laws that currently prohibit sexual orientation discrimination in private employment: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin. Some of these states also specifically prohibit discrimination based on gender identity. (In addition, a handful of states have laws prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination in public workplaces only.)

      So you’re wrong they don’t have protection of their rights in all states.

      May 15, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "2. Marriage is not a civil right"

      Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

      The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

      No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

      The U.S. Supreme Court first applied this standard to marriage in Loving v. Virginia (1967), where it struck down a Virginia law banning interracial marriage.

      May 15, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
  5. James

    I believe in God but I am smart enough to not interpret the bible LITERALLY. The bible was written by man, not the hand of god. Wake up people. And what's up with all the fire and brimstone talk. I'm pretty sure God wants us to make our own decisions. And why can't all of you religious zealots mind your own dam business? Who cares what two people do in the privacy of their own home? And all of you who are quoting the bible just stop it. It's not working and people don't want to hear it. If you're gonna quote something quote the verse that says something about the person who constantly professes their faith to anything and everyone. Im pretty sure thats not a good thing.

    May 15, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • The Truth Teller

      So don't get angry when your church is no longer seen as a good thing in the Black community ! This will come back to bite you if this man loose because your to ......... I'll let you figure the rest out ! We as a people can't offed to loose just because of a book ! It also says that we should be able to have more than one wife but you preach against that or a woman must do what her husband tells her meaning she has no voice , where are you on that buddy !

      May 15, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • Faith

      That's exactly what the Devil wants you to believe.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
    • momoya

      LOLOLOLOL!!!! Faith believes in "the devil!" hahahaha!

      May 15, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
  6. Holly in CA

    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" Leviticus 18:22

    This and many other verses in the Bible make it quite clear where God stands on this issue. Pastors who try to rationalize this behavior are in direct contradiction to the laws of God.

    May 15, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • GodPot

      "‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God. 4 “‘Do not turn to idols or make metal gods for yourselves. I am the Lord your God." Lev 19:3-4

      "11 “‘Do not steal. “Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another. 12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord. 13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. ‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight. 14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord. 15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. 16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord." Lev 19:11-16

      May 15, 2012 at 11:54 am |
    • GodPot

      So as you can see Holly, when you tell a lie it's the same as a man lying with another man. There are no levels of sin defined here, so why are you not observing the Sabbath? Are you an employer who doesn't pay each of his workers every night? This is the point you morons don't seem to be getting, the bible condemns lots of things, why do you get to pick and choose what to observe but condemn others?

      May 15, 2012 at 11:57 am |
    • Primewonk

      Holly, 2 chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13, you god adds this command, "If a man has sèxual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death"

      Why aren't you fundiots doing this? After all, your god DEMANDS you do this.

      May 15, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"After all, your god DEMANDS you do this."

      John 8:7
      "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

      The Book of Leviticus (from Greek Λευιτικός, Leuitikos, meaning "relating to the Levites"; Hebrew: ויקרא‎, Wayiqra, "And He called") is the third book of the Hebrew Bible.

      Maybe you should take up carrying through what God "DEMANDS" with the Jewish in society my friend. Jesus, told us to acknowledge and carry out "only" if we are not carrying the burden of sin ourselves.

      May 15, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
    • momoya

      LOLO!! Mark thinks that one example of mercy has some effect on the thousands of examples of god's stupid rage on almost every page of the bible.

      May 15, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
    • J.W

      Holly do you follow everything that is in Leviticus?

      May 15, 2012 at 12:55 pm |
    • YeahRight

      ""Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" Leviticus 18:22"

      Most Christians don't follow Lev. anymore. It also states in Lev that a woman has to marry her rapist too, are you going to enforce that too. LMAO! By the way there are many listing of abominations in the bible: Unclean things (Lev. 7:21) ; Cheating (Mic. 6:10) ; A proud look (Pro. 6:16-17) ; A lying tongue (Pro. 6:17; 12:22) ; Hands that shed innocent blood ((Pro. 6:17) ; A wicked scheming heart (Pro. 6:18) ; A false witness that speaks lies (Pro. 6:19) ; A sower of discord (Pro. 6:19) ; A false balance or scale (Pro. 11:1) ; The proud of heart (Pro. 16:5) ; Justifying the wicked (Pro. 17:15) ; Condemning the just (Pro. 17:15) ; Refusing to hear the law (Pro. 28:9) ; Wearing clothes of the opposite sex (Dt. 22:5) Re-marriage of former companions (Dt. 24:1-4) ; Cheating others (Dt. 25:13-16) ; Making images/idols (Dt. 27:15) ; Eating unclean things (Isa. 66:17) ; Robbery (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Murder (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Adultery (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Oppression of others, particularly the poor or vulnerable (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Violence (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Breaking vows (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Lending with interest to a brother (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Lying with a menstruous woman (Ezek. 18: 6-13).

      So Holly are you going to block the civil rights of all the people that do these abominations? Or is your prejudice strictly against gay people? What a hypocrite.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"Mark thinks that one example of mercy "

      Momo, it is not the one example of mercy, it is why folks like me are against capital punishment. It is a examle of WWJD that speaks directly to the subject of the "DEMAND" statement.

      Wonk asked why are we not excuting someone for breaking a old testament law, the same way the church leaders asked Jesus. His answer was as true for a Christian today as it was when they asked Jesus.

      So the answer to Wonks question is that Fundalmentalist, if they accept John 8:7, can not "...They are to be put to death" unless the Fundalmentalist is without sin.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • J.W

      I have found that most people who use this verse don't even know a single other verse in Leviticus besides that one.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
    • momoya

      @ Mark

      the only way you're argument would be valid is if we weren't judging and sentencing and executing people..

      May 15, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • Holly in CA

      @GodPot...I actually do observe the Sabbath, as well as the other commandments outlined in the Bible. In the past few decades some of these commandments have become obsolete as far as mainstream Christianity is concerned, but pastors are still preaching what's in the Bible even if people are refusing to follow the commandments.

      @YeaRight...you are correct in that there are several Mosaic Laws overruled by Christ's laws. But, ho mose xuality is mentioned as a sin several places in the Bible, including the New Testament.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "But, ho mose xuality is mentioned as a sin several places in the Bible, including the New Testament."

      No it's not. What is mentioned in the New Testament was about using sex to worship a pagan god and male prostitution. Even the word homosexaul was added later by a bias scribe in Cor. the original Greek was meant for male prostitution. Part of reading comprehension 101 is putting it into historical context.

      May 15, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Holly posted a passage from Leviticus show how much her god hates gay folks. I posted another passage from Leviticus showing that Holly's god hates gays so much he commands his minions to kill them

      Mark then posts, taking me to task, posting the Pericope Adulterae. Yet, for some reason, Mark fails to understand that this passage was not original to John. It was added many (many, many, many) years later. Folks like Mark desperately want this story to be true, but it isn't.

      He also seems to think that the OT rules, and laws, and commands are not in play. Yet, his very own Jesus says – several times – that the OT's rules would remain in play until heaven and earth pass away. The earth is still here.

      Finally, I wonder why this fundiot jumps my àss, when it was a fellow fundiot of his that posted passages from Leviticus to begin with?

      Hypocricy much?

      May 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
  7. thegayblade

    Dear black people.. As a gay man, I have worked diligently on civil right for all people. After your overwhelming support in NC's marriage amendment, I have canceled my membership in the NAACP and I will no longer work for continued civil rights for your culture. I could use the Bible to justify a return to slavery after all, so why continue to fight on your behalf when you will not fight on mine. Oh, there is also the fact that 72% of black babies are born out of wedlock. Seems to me that you have a marriage problem of your own. If blacks won't marry I guess no one else should either...that must be what you are thinking.

    May 15, 2012 at 10:59 am |
    • tjchase

      I agree with your stance. I fought for my country all the time that my fellow soldiers knew I was gay, but did not let it effect our work performance. There are more unmarried couples with children then ever before. More adulterers yet all people can see is their narrow minded bigotry and hate. I was a nurse and helped save lives, however that doesn't seem to matter. I could have chosen to hate and not help those in need. But Christ taught love of they neighbor. Judge not least ye be judged.

      May 15, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      You quit the NAACP? Do all African Americans belong too or agree with the NAACP?

      Folks are not monolithic dude. There are Gays in the NAACP, the Black churches and other black groups. The Black churches are not the only insit'itutions in society who have a anti-Gay stance, so why single them out specifically?

      May 15, 2012 at 11:34 am |
    • Poltergiest

      Dear thegayblade,

      It's unfortunate you no longer wish to pursue civil rights for all Americans because you are unable to garner support for your own special interest. Perhaps you didn't realize this but the Civil Rights Movement was formed to pursue the civil rights of all minorities, not just blacks. If it had not been for blacks and organizations like the NAACP companies, people, and the media could still censor, condemn, and discriminate against your basic freedoms to this day with impunity. Apparently you are unaware that the Civil Rights act was for your rights as well. That's the equality we pushed for and we got it for you. We've yet to receive our thank you card.

      It's unfortunate you become so embroiled in your special interest that you believe it's a right. But it's not, it's a special interest specifically for gays and it's your job to convince the American people they want it. Just as it would be a special interest if we pushed for reparations. But since we've made an effort to cover you under the same civil rights protections that protect gays, other races, and women, we feel we're square. If anything you owe us since you probably weren't hit with firehoues or eaten by dogs to secure those rights.

      May 15, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • Primewonk

      Not meaning to speak for thegayblade – here is my take on it –

      Black people were enslaved, beaten, bashed, killed, and discriminated against for centuries in the US because of how some groups of white people spun their bibles. These groups of white people decided that their god wanted them to think black folks were less than human.

      In fact, in Mississippi, half of republicans (and how many of these do you think are fundiot christians?) still think interracial marriage should be illegal.

      Many gay folks, like thegayblade, and many straight folks, like myself, have lost respect for these fundamentalist black churches. They are saying, in effect, "I got mine, so scrèw you".

      May 15, 2012 at 12:26 pm |
    • momoya


      Mark and Poltergeist are using stupid logic, here, I think.. I think you're doing the right thing.. No need to "band together" with others if all they want is your support for their causes but they won't support your cause.. Fvck 'em!

      May 15, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Poltergiest


      Well if you could point out why the Civil Rights movement did not help gays, you might have a case. As far as I see it, this is a special interest for a specific group and it's up to you to convince the nation that marriage has somehow transformed into a right. Nobodies against the protection of gay civil rights, blacks fought for it and every minority benefited. However, your trying to justify some special interest by making the absurd claim that blacks shouldn't have any opinion other than the one that supports yours because you decided to rebrand marriage as a right. And that anyone who disagrees with that must be against the entirety of gay rights. I'm sorry that just doesn't fly.

      Blacks did secure your civil rights, as well as rights for all minorities. And the drive for those rights depended heavily on the churches you now condemn. It's an irony that gays certainly didn't have a problem with the church when they were pushing against discrimination. But now suddenly God is the problem because the church doesn't agree with your special interest regarding marriage.

      May 15, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "As far as I see it, this is a special interest for a specific group and it's up to you to convince the nation that marriage has somehow transformed into a right'

      This is a list of rights of marriage that gay couples are being denied:

      Tax Benefits
      -–Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
      -–Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

      Estate Planning Benefits
      -–Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
      -–Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
      -–Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
      -–Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse – that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

      Government Benefits
      -–Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
      -–Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
      -–Receiving public as-sistance benefits.
      -–Employment Benefits
      -–Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
      -–Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
      -–Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
      -–Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

      Medical Benefits
      -–Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
      -–Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

      Death Benefits
      -–Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
      -–Making burial or other final arrangements.

      Family Benefits
      -–Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
      -–Applying for joint foster care rights.
      -–Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
      -–Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

      Housing Benefits
      -–Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
      -–Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

      Consumer Benefits
      -–Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
      -–Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
      -–Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
      -–Other Legal Benefits and Protections
      -–Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
      -–Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
      -–Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
      -–Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
      -–Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
      -–Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • Poltergiest

      If benefits were all that mattered there wouldn't be such a backlash in the gay community against expanding domestic partnerships which could grant access to those benefits and would encounter alot less friction than gay marriage faces.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • Scott

      C.S. Lewis once said, "If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man." Gay marriage is the wrong road. We would be wise not to continue on that path.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • momoya

      Poltergeist, your argument is too contorted to be worthy of consideration.. The bible does not speak out against slavery but condones it; therefore, your claim that now it's not about civil rights but about god is completely false.. Why should a gay black person continue to help an organization that refuses to help the gay black with his civil rights?!?. Your arguments do nothing more than point out how silly is your position.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • momoya


      Gay rights IS the RIGHT road..

      May 15, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • fred

      If you are going to bring the Bible into it the Bible does not promote slavery it established rules to prevent abuse of slaves. You wish to go back 2,000 years and twist some verse that applied to a local custom and say it applies today?
      Why trash God and Bible gayblade?

      May 15, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”No need to "band together" with others if all they want is your support for their causes but they won't support your cause.”

      Hi Momo. As Wonk says, I do not speak for all Black Churches, because the Black Churches are as diverse as the White churches.

      I feel that, as expressed here in other post, there are those in the Black church who feel insulted when the LGBT community attempt to compare the treatment of their community to that of how groups such as the African Americans were treated in American history. I do not know if it right to compare the persecutions but at the same time, I remember a debate on campus once and a girl who was half Native American sorta laid to waste most a discussion panel. Her argument was that the African Americans had less of a leg to stand on, in persecutions, compared to the history of the Native Americans.

      The persecutions of people in society can be found in most of our ancestors and maybe this is why some in the Black Churches question why the LGBT community hasn't gone to groups such as a Irish or Native Americans to “expect” overall support.

      Also, the support for their causes. I would check out discussions within the LGBT community because while the Lesbians and Gays have gotten support for their advances in society in many laws they have left out those who are Transgendered in society. In jobs and housing, a person can be Gay or Lesbian and not lose their rented homes or jobs, but if they are transgendered they can. Where is the Gay and Lesbian community on this matter for the “T” in LGBT?

      Should not the LGBT have first made sure a person can exist in society and be safe in home and career before if they can marry or not?

      May 15, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • fred

      You need to first fix marriage rights that are based on Christian family values in this country. Social Security, Medicare, government pensions etc are based on 70 year old law where the little woman stayed home whille the man of the house was the bread winner. First strip all marriage rights from everyone effective 2012 that award financial and medical benefits to the little woman of the house. Now, create a fair system based on a man man, woman woman, man and woman, man and women, women and men that get married.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • momoya


      The bible never states that slavery is wrong but instead provides lots of ideas on how to treat slaves and not beat them unto death but just shy of death and that sort of thing.. The bible says that slavery is good and that ho.mo.se.xuality is bad.. When it comes to both topics, we should do as you say: "You wish to go back 2,000 years and twist some verse that applied to a local custom and say it applies today?" Correct criticism!! I'm glad to see your thoughts and agree.. There's no need to consult the bible on either slavery or ho.mo.se.xuality.

      The bible condones slavery and condemns ho.mo.se.xuality.. That's the connection between civil rights and alternative lifestyle rights.. The bible was wrong on slavery and it's also wrong on ho.mo. issues.. Also, ho.mo lifestyle IS a civil right.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • momoya

      @ fred

      No (to your last post).. I don't have a problem with what you suggest other than that it would take too long.. It would be stupid to deny a person civil rights while we fix all the current problems.. You wouldn't suggest that we halt all marriages until those problems are fixed, so don't suggest something stupid about gay marriage needing to wait for those fixes.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Poltergiest


      Really? Is it that incredibly hard to comprehend? Here's the TLDR version.

      1. Blacks support civil rights for everyone. Gays benefited just as much as other minorities.
      2. Marriage is not a civil right.
      3. Blacks aren't required to support gay marriage just because they fought for the civil rights of all minorities.
      4. In decades past, the churches you are condemning were key in securing your civil rights.

      I'm not sure where you got the bible claim from. I haven't said anything about what God thinks on anything. And finally it would be silly for a gay black person to stop supporting black rights because black churches don't support gay marriage. They can be discriminated against for being black. Talk about convoluted.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • momoya


      Hey, you stole my line.. I was going to ask you if "Really?!? what's so hard to understand?!?" about what I was saying 🙂

      May 15, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • fred

      Hom-o$exuals awaiting the U. S. to declare gay marriage in order to marry into the U.S. and receive free medical treatment for AIDS. I am a compassionate person yet I know that money will come from our limited funds that provide medical care to the elderly. These are not small decisions these are decisions that take away the life of and old hard working american on medicare and give the resources over to a foreign hom-mo$exual coming to the U.S. to take advantage of our system. The only story you hear in the news is about the hom-o$exual being deported because they cannot marry like everyone else.
      Giving a new civil right to a group of people by taking away the life of another class of people is an issue.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
    • momoya


      So you don't want ho.mo.s to have rights because it will end up costing more?? Sounds like the main argument the South used to keep slavery legal..

      May 15, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • fred

      There is nothing equal about two guys gettting married and the traditional Christian family of 70 years ago. You want two guys to have the same benefits of a system designed for the working head of the family while the little woman stayed home. The world has changed. Economically with women receiving equal wages the wages of men were reduced. This is a game changer. Giving a gay man the benefits of the little women of 70 years past is wrong.
      Tell me again why two sisters cannot get married. Thanks

      May 16, 2012 at 1:04 am |
    • momoya

      You fvcking moron.. Marriage still exists, regardless of how times have changed.. Marriage should be done away with completely, but while we still have it in place let everyone get married to whom they wish to marry.. Heteros can marry whom they will, why withhold that right from ho.mos?

      Sisters should be able to married; why shouldn't they be allowed?

      May 16, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • fred

      Ah we have reached agreement. Get rid of marriage for everyone ! Sounds like a good beginning.

      May 16, 2012 at 5:16 pm |

    what has light 2 do wit darkness,in God they's no darkness @ all.

    May 15, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • Tony

      Obama was for gay marriage in 1996 then changed his mind, now he flip flopped again. the man has no back bone. he makes up his own faith as he goes along, God created them male and female and theefore a man will leave his fathe and mother and go to his wife and the two shall become one,

      May 15, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • JohnQuest

      Tony, not if that man is Gay

      May 15, 2012 at 11:26 am |
  9. DJ

    To not vote for Obama when there's one thing you disagree with is ridiculous. Get past your tiny little worlds and think about the other person and the scale of how awful it will be in comparison if the Republicans control everything. You think you're not satisfied now, just wait.

    May 15, 2012 at 10:36 am |
  10. routie cecil


    May 15, 2012 at 10:07 am |
  11. DrDoITT

    actually, I dont care one way or the other.. Have far more important things in my life

    Rita, my apologies if you felt hurt.

    I was just trolling

    May 15, 2012 at 9:01 am |
  12. ward

    Besides being an abomination the gay lifestyle is unnatural. For example practicing this lifestyle ends mankind in one generation. It is a confusion yet in spite of all that I do respect and have mercy for them. However I'm not going to teach my children that this lifestyle is acceptable and proper.

    Love Jesus with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

    Loving your neighbor also means not enabling an addiction.... as a leader I would not support these marriage recognitions, it's bad for the nation and against the edicts of God Almighty. Yet i still will remain merciful in regards to them.

    Also acceptability in society is never going to happen since you cannot legislate what is in a persons heart ... I will never see it as correct and proper yet I'm not going to attack you either ....

    I will just continue to deal my Spiritual bread to the hungry and cover the naked....

    May 15, 2012 at 8:52 am |
    • AGuest9

      So is fooling around on your wife, or with someone else's wife. It doesn't stop many ministers from doing it, though. Practice what they preach?

      May 15, 2012 at 9:00 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      "Besides being an abomination the gay lifestyle is unnatural"

      Outside of your buybull, where is the evidence to back this? Hom.o.se.xuality has been noted in 1500 or so species.
      Are you wearing something made of 2 fabrics today ward? That is also considered an abomination or are those parts that you skip over.
      Lack of understanding of the real world does not consti.tute an issue for the rest of us...time to grow up little one and learn to think for yourself. Only children have imaginary friends!
      When you provide evidence of a gay person directly causing harm within your life directly, then you can speak out against that person but you dolts don't like being grouped in to one, nor should you be...so don't do it to others...respect (not that you have a damn clue as to what that is) goes two ways in this world.

      May 15, 2012 at 9:08 am |
    • JohnQuest

      ward, Please clarify "love your neighbor as yourself"? It seems that you really don't mean that if you are denying your neighbors the same rights that you enjoy (marrying who you want). If you "love your neighbor as yourself", should they not have the same rights as you (no more no less)?

      All laws as passed by man (at least in the US) should apply to all people equally, when a law targets, excludes, or punishes one group it is by definition discriminatory. Do you believe the law should discriminate against one group? The biggest question I have is, please explain how g-ay marriage effects straight marriage?

      I think that Pandora's Box argument is invalid because the law against marrying a goat or more than one person at a time applies to all of us equally.

      May 15, 2012 at 9:59 am |
    • chefdugan

      Why would anyone pay the least bit of attention to pastors who make a living shoveling BS to their patrons? Maybe someday people will make up their own minds about things instead of being told what to think every Sunday. Black people are so maulable.

      May 15, 2012 at 10:07 am |
    • tjchase

      being gay is not a life choice it is genetic. I have cousins I did not grow up with that are Gay. Get your head out of the sand and read more. I will pray for your blacken soul and hope God can see past your bigotry

      May 15, 2012 at 11:26 am |
  13. Dee Wallace

    I am appalled at the racist, bigotry and the mentality of some making these comments about Blacks and their family. I work in the medical field and you would be suprised at the number of whites that are in the condition that has been described of Blacks.

    Conservatives are mostly white and where I live in North Carolina a Bible Belt State the opinion is the same or worst about Gays. This country will never move forward with this kind of mind set and a lot of this stuff is engrained in these people and is generational. Thiis a sad time in America......................

    May 15, 2012 at 8:41 am |
    • M. F. Luder

      Looking at the vast majority of comments made on these pages, it's apparent that this country will never move forward.

      May 15, 2012 at 8:50 am |
    • momoya


      Indeed.. I agree.. If we can't get past some stupid fairy tale written before there were electronics or technology then we're doomed to failure.. Look people, religions like ones based on the bible are for stone age goat-herders, not people living in the 21st Century..

      May 15, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
  14. Reality

    The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    (references used are available upon request)

    May 15, 2012 at 8:12 am |
    • Scott

      Your "creed" doesn't make sense. Why would all of Jesus' disciples (with the exception of John) be willing to be killed for saying the Jesus rose from the dead? While many will give their lives for what they believe to be true, no one would give their life for something they knew to be false. Nice try, though. People don't want to believe that God exists, and that they will have to give an account for their lives, because, as Aldous Huxley said, "it frees me to my own erotic pursuits."

      May 15, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • Scott

      I believe in God the Father, maker of Heaven and Earth,
      and in Jesus Christ, His only son...I believe in the virgin birth.
      I believe in the Man of Sorrows, bruised for iniquity.
      I believe in the Lamb who was crucified and hung between two thieves.
      I believe in the resurrection on the third and glorious day.
      I believe in the empty tomb, and the stone that the angel rolled away.
      He descended and set the captive free.
      Now He sits at God's right hand and prepares a place for me.

      From the song "Creed" by Petra

      May 15, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • Reality

      Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection Con/

      From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

      Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

      To wit;

      From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

      "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
      Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

      Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

      Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

      The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

      Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts, i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.

      The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

      "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."

      The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

      With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

      An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,


      "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

      p.168. by Ted Peters:

      Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

      So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

      May 15, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
    • Reality

      With respect to dying for your risen prophet, keep in mind the thousands of contemporary, Islamic suicide bombers. Brainwashing with absurd visions and fortune tellers continues.

      May 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
  15. stephensonbillings

    Why would any black support gay marriage? These people have enough problems they have to clean up in their ghettos with the crack and the underage girls and all that. The gay thing mostly affects whites and really the blacks have no right to make this another one of there so called "civil rights" issues.

    May 15, 2012 at 6:43 am |
    • robjohnson

      You must be the most ignorant person in all of the United States, I suggest you return to the first grade and learn to read, and once you learn to read, try understanding what the issues are and then submit your comments, but the world views you as a very stupid person.

      May 15, 2012 at 7:34 am |
    • stephensonbillings

      That was uncalled for. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am a very educated person and very much experienced with this world. I also know my Bible and my Constution which you seem unaware of. Do you even understand that America was founded on Christian principles?

      May 15, 2012 at 7:39 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      @stephensonbillings: Maybe just maybe if you'd stop telling others what they have to believe, they'd give you some respect but lying to people is wrong. Your country is a secular nation, founded by Deists-not Christians. You are not doing yourself any favors on this blog by acting like the poor hard done by christian. So unless you start using a rational line of thought and stop the bigotry and hate, you can expect to have people come back at you. When you are able to prove with physical evidence that is based on the scientific method that your god exists and that your buybull is more than just the word of man, we might listen but until then, please stop crying foul...no-one wants to hear it. Respect goes two ways in this world and you need to learn that.

      May 15, 2012 at 7:56 am |
    • GodPot

      " I am a very educated person and very much experienced with this world." He just gets all his experience through FOX news and takes their world view as fact. I'm sure he's been through the ghetto, at least the ghetto of Bill O's mind...

      May 15, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • Scott

      Stephenson...please don't speak on behalf of Christians. True Christians would never malign an entire group of people because of their color. And true Christians don't speak harshly of gays/lesbians...we simply believe that it is sinful behavior, just the same as adultery, stealing, lying, etc. are sinful behavior.

      May 15, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • Sugarmama

      Okay Mr. billings/kkkgrandwizard-First of all I know someone who actually sells crack and all of his customers are white. Secondly most black people were raised and taught that being gay is not normal and being a bigot is not either.

      May 15, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
  16. Doindia

    See how the media is lying ! http://www.ProofTheyAreRelated .com

    May 15, 2012 at 5:38 am |
  17. n8263

    It is immoral to impose your religious superstition on others.

    You do not believe in religion because you honestly think it is true, you believe in it because you fear mortality or are seeking meaning in your life. It does not take a genius to figure out all religion is man made, so for humanity's sake, please stop lying to yourself.

    Deluding yourself in religion does not change reality. Lying to yourself is probably the worst possible way to try to find meaning.

    May 15, 2012 at 1:33 am |
    • tjchase

      I know for a fact that there are no atheists in a foxhole. I know I did not descend from the apes. I will pray for all those who have trashed Stephen. Jesus taught love not hate, and this world seems to breed hatred and bigotry.

      May 15, 2012 at 11:34 am |
    • bdstrohl

      @tjchase You know for a fact that there are no atheists in foxholes? Sorry to rain on your parade, buddy. But I am an atheist and served two combat tours in Iraq. I also know of thousands more atheists that have served in combat.

      May 15, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
    • momoya


      If the only way you can maintain your faith is by making broad and stupid a.ssumptions then I say: go for it.

      May 15, 2012 at 12:30 pm |
  18. WillieLove

    "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." I Timothy 2:5-6

    May 15, 2012 at 12:21 am |
    • Ting

      If you believe in the trinity then God and Jesus are one and the same. God made a human version of himself so that he could have himself killed in order for him to forgive others. Even though he is God and can do anything, he couldn't bring himself to forgive others until he tortured and mutilated the human version of himself. I guess this makes total since to you as well as the talking snake and donkey found early on in your book.

      May 15, 2012 at 4:02 am |
  19. WillieLove

    "But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly." Genesis 13:13

    "And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous." Genesis 18:20 "

    "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground." Genesis 19:24-25

    May 15, 2012 at 12:20 am |
    • Rina

      Its the answer spoken by young and old, rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, black, white, Latino, Asian, Native American, gay, straight, disabled and not disabled – Americans who sent a message to the world that we have never been a collection of Red States and Blue States: we are, and always will be, the United States of America.

      President Obama

      May 15, 2012 at 12:41 am |
    • Larry

      You do realize that sodom was simply the name of a city and people were called sodomites because hey lived there and not because of the activity they were engaged in? Also if you trust so much in the bible you must also know that it was put together by a roman catholic emperor and a group of religious scholars to fit their views of christianity and we got the old testament then when king james wanted more he did the same thing and we got the new testament. so its not actually the truth its someoen else version of it. Because i would hate to to think someone as intelligent as you would randomly quote something he knows nothing about, i mean it might make you look even more foolish.

      May 15, 2012 at 6:02 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Willie: All you are proving by quoting scripture is that you are incapable of forming a rational thought or opinion of your own. Way to prove your lack of intellect...MORON!!

      May 15, 2012 at 6:29 am |
    • Scott

      Truth prevails...are you incapable of having a discussion with someone you do not agree with, without name calling? Many of the people that are against God/religion on these blogs seem to resort to this tactic. Oh..and GodPot – where do you think we got the term sodomy from? When one is "sodomized" what do you suppose that means?

      May 15, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
  20. WillieLove

    1. Asa-"And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did David his father.
    "And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made." I Kings 14:11-12
    2. Jehoshaphat–"And he walked in all the ways of Asa his father; he turned not asidefrom it, doing that which was right in the eyes of the Lord. . . "
    "And the remnant of the Sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land." I Kings 22:43a,46
    3. Josiah–"And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangingsfor the grove. " II Kings 23:7

    May 15, 2012 at 12:19 am |
    • GodPot

      You do know that the word "sodomite" and "gay" are not synonymous right? The use of that word in the bible was to denote those from the region of Sodom since even though the city was supposedly destroyed, the people of the region continued to live on. The scriptures you quote have nothing to do with s e x ual activity, but a description of people based on where they were born. Now an ignorant person would just assume that our use of the word today to denote a person who engages in anal s e x must be what the bible meant and thus use it to defend their bigotry and hate.

      May 15, 2012 at 11:44 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.