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 The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith. What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others. A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ. During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning. After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality). His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise. My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will. Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him. The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage. Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily! I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms. The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new. I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream. It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect. The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler. soundoff (15,115 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 Next » |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor's Note: 
“Difficult Times Will Come”
3 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a] haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of [b] godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c] enter into households and captivate [d] weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as [f]Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, [g]perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is [h]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [i]training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
I can cut and paste large sections of Winnie the Pooh here, it doesn't make him a real living bear. Although he makes more sense than your god does.
Blah blah blah. Take your idiotic book of fairy tales and shove it. It isn't MY moral authority. You're disgusting book that shows you how to be a bigot and discriminate against fellow human beings belongs in the garbage. Burn the m^%ther f^%cker.
DeeCee1000 you are such a caring and understanding person. I greatly appricate the filth in your posts. Could you use a beer, or a seditive?
I think these religious people who want to keep people from living their lives lack a faith in God. Don't you believe God will be the one punishing them? If that is the case, let him deal with it. If you feel you have to be his police force here on earth, you must not have much faith in God's ability to judge.
Yes, a won't he also be punishing those who hide their prejudice, bigotry and ignorance behind Him and His Word.
The devil is a happy camper these days, since all these things concerning morality.
Ironically the man who the writer talks about is the very one who tells us about this type of person.
Let's not forget we were forwarned about this day, and the very Word of God this man is talking about fortold us:
2 Pteter: 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
The Easter Bunny is a happy camper too. He's finally done passing out all those chocolate crucifixes.
The devil is a happy camper these days, since all these things concerning morality."
Oh you mean when people have to point out to the Christians that they came to this country murdered the Native Americans, stole their land, enslaved African Americans who then had to fight for their rights, then they were treating women like crap and they had to fight for their rights. Yeah...Christians keep getting their morality wrong over and over again. Duh! The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
I have not a doubt that religion is simply a side effect of our human ability for self aware abstract thought and our need to comprehend the yet incomprehensible in our universe. Religion comes from our own minds, so I find it rather humorous every time there's an article on what religion says about anything.
We're really only debating our own (socially collective) mind in the form of an anthropomorphized God(s).
Everyone's head contains their own god. The fallacy of religion is that all the gods, of similar ilk, inter-communicate.
Did that make sense when you wrote it, tony?
"Religion comes from our own minds" Just your opinion. It may be true for you but not others.
Well, the earth was flat at one time and it was true to believers because the bible says so. . . .but it is NOT flat.
Rob – Your religion came from a man's mind, probably not your own, you don't seem bright enough. You probably think exactly the same thoughts as the preacher you give money to every Sunday.
Yes, Texas Rob, it is my opinion .. backed up by reason, probability and some of the greatest minds (not that I'm one of them) from all of human history.
Bet- Since you don't know anything about me, it’s pretty moronic for you to make that statement. Since you don't personally know where religion came from, you sound pretty ignorant as well. You claiming so does not make it true. You would say the same for all religion, so you have to hold yourself to the same law. There is allot of archeological evidence of many things in the bible, so what part do you think is in my mind? You don't know me, my experiences, my age, my beliefs, etc, etc. etc. You also don't know that religion was created by man. So claiming it as fact is no better than anyone else.
In addition, Deedee, there is nowhere in the bible where it said the earth was flat. It was know not to be flat in ancient times, and then that knowledge was lost and man believed the world to be flat. There are a great many things that ancient humans had great knowledge of that escapes us today. We think we are such evolved beings, yet we are horrible at transferring knowledge and collectively forget knowledge daily. So you can assume that you are so intelligent that you are all knowing and everyone else is wrong. You could start of by telling people, I believe: ___________. Then it is recognized as your opinion or philosophy or even your agenda.
Time to start throwing Christians to the lions again.
That was one of the single greatest moments in history because so many saw the power of God to give His people peace and courage in the midst of unimaginable suffering. Why do you think so many jaded, crual Romans converted at those events?
@Political
So you're in favor of throwing Christians to lions, too.. huh.
While that would be nice. . .I wish idiots like you would go look up Christian church history. Start by looking up the 600 yr Inquisitions. You're "god" is the worst mass murderer that ever supposedly lived. Your church is disgusting.
A lot of slaves preceded the Christian apparently. The Roman governors weren't that bothered about the victims religious affiliations back then. The show must go on!
DeeCee1000
Don't mistake God for what man has done in the name of God.
Right. "God" decided to destroy all of humanity including innocent babies in a "flood" simply because he can. . .and continues to let millions of babies starve to death. Your "god" is the biggest a^%hole ever conceived.
PoliticsProf – Please provide citations for your claims that so many Romans converted.
This effort to come up with a Christian "case" for gay marriage just underlines that Christians and other theists can't agree on what their god "really" has meant and that this religion is just more baseless nonsense created completely by human beings. Just dump these sets of primitive myths totally. What a waste of time to try to get such things to make any sense.
Please enlighten us with more of your great wisdom.
Yes, Christians claim that their bible is "very clear" on sin and other things. . .but yet for some reason there are now thousands of different denominations all interpreting the same book differently. Go figure. Christianity: the biggest mess in the world's history and most followers are too dumb to figure it out.
Churches/Religions don't need to perform marriage rituals for anyone they don't want too, but our Gov. needs to allow marriage to all consenting adults in this country.
John, you're such a typical religion moron. . .you're comparing murderers to gay people? You're brain is so f&^cked up by your idiotic bible that you can't even think right. Go shove your evil bible up your a^%hole. And while you're at it, read up on your Christianity's long disgusting history. The Judeo-Christian "god" is the biggest mass murderer in the history of the world. You and your idiotic religions are in no way any moral authority nor should they be.
The pill may be a jagged one, but it'll do you good.. Gulp it down, christards.
I make it a practice not to have anything shoved up my a$$
I doubt you could get anyone to do much of anything with your ass unless you paid for it, John-john.
So....
Once again...maybe you could explain what it was about the article that intrigued you?
Maybe you were hoping that once and for all someone had figured out a winning argument...wrong
Maybe you were hoping that you could finally rest with your condition...wrong
You don't have to change or live differently...you only need to look to God for acceptance but that won't happen as long as you think the answer lives with you...it doesn't.
I hope you find peace but I can promise you it will only come when you accept ALL of your brokenness and realize that your transcended perfection is as easy as asking for a new spirit...
Not this one in you now that keeps telling people to do nasty things
You seem to be unaware that hetero couples engage in anal s3x, John. Are you by any chance a virgin? Or just celibate?
People like John appear to be against gay marriage because of the "icky" factor.
Sorry, Johnny, but what you find disgusting is your problem. There's a simple solution: don't engage in it if it's so disturbing.
And stay away from boards where it's being discussed. That should work, too. Why is it you're so fascinated that you can't seem to do that?
@John, Funny then how it is that I only found peace when I accepted that I was whole and beautiful, worthy of love without the vile concept of another dying horrifically to drench me in blood to make me worthy.
It was an amazing thing, to finally, after many, many years as a Christian, to feel LOVE in my life.
John is obviously a "str8" man obsessed with gay seks. Been thinking about it often Johnny? From all your posts, it certainly looks that way. . . .just sayin'. Maybe the person who needs to look within themselves is you buddy boy. . .I suggest a good therapist.
"You seem to be unaware that hetero couples engage in anal s3x" All heteros do not engage in this practice.
My guess would be that people that have not interest in this act are the people who find same s3x unnatural, unclean, or what ever you want to call it. I would guess that its hetero's that like this act, are more open to same s3x acts.
And upon what statistics are you basing this 'guess'? You and John must be very young.
When this gay marriage issue is viewed Religiously, which it is a lot, I guess their is evidence on both sides for 'no' it is wrong, and 'yes' it is not mans judgement to deny the marriage. But, how many gays want to get married in the church because of their strong religious beliefs ?
This is really dumb since Civil Marriage has nothing to with religion.
There are more religions in this country than Christianity.
And yes, there are gay and lesbian Christians who would like to be married in a church.
The problem is, this isn't a religious issue, but a civil one. Marriage is, first and foremost, a civil contract. The license comes from the state. The rights and benefits of marriage are conferred based on that license. The religious ceremony is a social construct designed to infer a particular god's favor upon the couple.
If your god does not favor gays and lesbians, then your church will not offer such ceremony to them. They can either turn to a church/synagogue/temple/grove/coven/assembly that will offer the ceremony to them, or have a quiet civil ceremony without religion involved.
I really do not understand why this is so difficult to understand.
In case it got buried, Momoya, thank you for the wonderful video on morality. You should post it regularly so that this idea may spread. Fundamentalists are quite unused to new ideas, because their modus operand is to keep their faces inside the same book and read and re-read the same passages again and again. There is a sense of safety in their activity (because it never changes), as well as tremendous room for fantasy (because the foundation is so much shifting sand.) Your video, on the other hand frightens them, because it deals in rational thought, a pastime which is not allowed to them in their meetings, nor in any aspect of their fables.
Yep.. That's sound logic.. I did reply to you on the vid "thread" on the last page. 🙂
Very well put Mr. Osler, too bad more Christians don't think the same way.
I'll wager that a lot of Christians feel this way. They just aren't spending their time arguing with anyone on some forum no one cares about. They're busy doing what their Christ commanded and not pretending to be Biblical scholars or God's Keystone Cops.
Couple of points. I think the writer has a good heart, though he does err. God did not build his church on Peter, a man, he built his church on Jesus Christ, the eternal rock. In addition, you can not match with scripture the sanctification of open sin. Sin, by scripture is sin, an affront to God.
Not everyone interprets the Bible as you do. What makes your interpretation correct and theirs incorrect?
The arrogance of some of you is just incredible.
says you
Tom, Tom The Pipers son, I don't mean to seem arrogant. I just study the scripture, and have for years. Christ is the eternal rock. All men, Christian and non-Christian, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is not by our works that we are saved, but by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Because he is alive we all have hope, who hope in him. But it is not me that speaks, but sin is sin. The Bible is clear. I am sorry I can not tell you what you want to hear.
Yeah, eating shellfish was once "an abomination to god". Go figure. No wonder Christianity is so fractured. Thousands of denominations each interpreting the "bible" different ways. The bible is anything but clear on things. Why the heck do people even follow that idiotic thing?
Absolutely right, Jerry. These points are stated clearly in the Bible.
Jerry you're an idiot. Maybe its time you take your nose out of Bronze Age scriptures and open a science book. . .use your brain for a change.
@ Jerry, If your bible was clear, why do you spend decades studying it? Why are there thousands od different christian sects who all believe you bible says different things?
@DeeCee
Could you open a science book and give me the answer on how mitochondria, the power plant of the cell, came to exist? Last I heard (M.S. Biomaterials 1999), the theory was that it was an "incorporated" bacteria type. So, the cell needs the energy that the mitochondria creates (ATP for those not reading their science books)? Where did the cell get the energy to integrate the bacteria type in the first place? Chicken or egg?
I'll take evolution of the human eye in response as well. If something could not see, how did it know that it needed to? Oh, the mutants with photo-reactive cells lived longer. The mutant population was what percentage of the total population...the stats on survival there are?
If that doesn't help: when did certain single cell organisms decide to be plants and others decide to be vegetation eating animals? And then those decided that some should just be pretty and some should bear fruit?
Christians believe because of what they have seen God do in their lives. Many of us remain believers when we test the theories and models from the secular world and find them lacking.
@Jerry: if the Bible was "clear" then everyone would see it the same way. They don't. And your interpretation of it is no more correct than mine or anyone else's. You aren't God, you don't know what God thinks, and you're not his cop on Earth.
@Aaron: Again, simply because we don't yet know how something came to be it does NOT follow that Goddidit.
If ga y s want to marry; no problem. Move to a state that has passed g a a y marriage. Easy solution.
...and Marriage is still a privilege, not a right.
No, Narb, you will not require me to move to another state, away from my family, my friends, my job, and my home. Nor will I ask you to move to North Carolina. I am decent enough to know that that would be a cruel and inhuman resolution to your problem. Civil Rights for all in America.
Or nayrb, you could move to a country where bigotry and hatred are able to be enshrined into law with no protections for minorities if you don't like it here ... like an African nation or an Arab one.
It would seem that Mr. Osler, like 75-90% of professed Christians, really does't understand Christianity and being a Christian really means. Christians are called to love all, but that love is not to encourage sin but rather encourage Christ likeness. If the scriptures then call upon us to love one another, but also declares a particular activity sin and evil in the , then promoting the sin by officially recongizing it as an acceptable form of behavior is in itself sin. That position is anti-Christ. No other way to cut it.
Because clearly you are the authority on Christianity and the millions of other people who believe differently than you are wrong!
Amen Gary, well said.
I wonder why god allows so much confusion here on earth about his nature and will?? He figured out how to communicate math and chemistry so well that both muslim terrorists and christian extremists MUST use them both in exactly the same way, but yet anybody can believe anything about god.. What kind of idiot makes such stupid decisions??
@momoya
Really..chemistry and physics as a logic argument against God? Go ahead and give me a logical evolution of the human eye. Or, mitochondria? Or why does the back human skull stay soft in the womb until birth when it can solidify? That would have had to not work one time and evolutionist arguments would not even have happened.
Have you read the Old Testament? Romans? It's there: we have been given over to our selfish desires due to us rejecting God for false gods. Sure, we believe in gravity because it hurts when we fall. I pray that you don't end up believing in God only when it is too late. Because, like gravity, He is real. Some of us just haven't realized that yet.
Peace.
Funny that the majority of anti-God slogans and bumper stickers I see are intolerant of God and those who believe in Him and point to our intolerance as Christians. Happy to discuss things other than straw men.
So anything you can't understand perfectly or do not know "MUST" be evidence of God?
Brother. Same old, same old.
Nope. I see the evidence in the science. I can explain it: God. I understand molecular genetics to the point of knowing it had to have been setup, rather than accidentally stumbled upon. The shear length of the code in each of our cells is staggering. At some point there has to be a first cause. Those trying to explain God away are having a hard time with that part of it.
Same, old...funny. I'll step out and let the same old arguments against God flood the discussion.
Uyup. Really convincing, Aaron. Especially the bit about "shear". Write back when you actually have a clue. The fact that you don't 'get it' doesn't mean a god is the explanation for its existence.
Religion should not impose its doctrine on a nation, but a majority can and should impose its morality on everyone in that nation, equally and fairly. It's called freedom and equal rights.
No, it is not. People do not get to "impose morality" on others. They pass laws that protect their rights from infringement. Has nothing to do with morality.
Furthermore, the majority do not have the right to impose their will on the minority if doing so infringes on the basic rights of that minority.
Tom, I couldn't have put it better myself. That was the foundation of America, and we need to protect that from these moralists. Morals are values that you teach to your children, to raise them the way you wish. They are not to be forced on to others.
As of 2010, there were 157.0 women in the USA, and 151.8 men, this means that women are in the majority. So women should get to pass laws to impose our wishes on men. I propose men get to make $.75 for every dollar I make even if they are doing the same job.
There are dozens of Biblical admonitions against straight folks, and only 7 or so against gays. This doesn't mean god loves us more, just that we need less supervision.
Makes good sense to me.
What a great perspective! I love it!
Thank you for this point!
The problem with your point is that you have a misconception is that other admonitions are only for straight folks?
So the Ten Commandments aren't for you???
For all of you whiners who think that CNN only posts articles that are in favor of gay marriage, there is a new one at the top of the home page that was written just for you.
JESUS: "Okay here's an idea. You love them like I loved you, feed them clothe them and shelter them, and let me deal with judging them."
FOLLOWERS: "But what if they're gay or follow other gods?"
JESUS: "Did I stutter?"
(Borrowed from https://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jesus.jpg)
Really. The number of thumpers on here who think their omnipotent sky-fairy requires a cadre of cops to enforce his rules is laughable.
Unfortunately, this kind of "love" is not love at all because it negates the need for the Cross as God's means of saving sinners. The cross perfectly marries God's justice and mercy, but you have portrayed an incomplete picture of that, and therefore show that you do not understand the rudimentary aspects of faith in Jesus as the Christ.
If God needs your help to judge others and control their "sinning", he's a pretty lame character.
@ PoliticsProf – I'd refer you to 1 Corinthians 13 for a good definition of love. Seems pretty consistent with the content of my original post.
@TomTom – Bug off... I'm a theology major not a religious fanatic. You're wasting your time arguing with someone whose stance you have little understanding of.
OOOOOooooooh. "Bug off"? If you're so certain of your immense scholarship, honey, you will ignore my posts and go on about your merry way.
I suspect you are nothing of the sort, or you wouldn't be ending a sentence with "of".
You missed the point PoliticsProf. The point is, don't judge them. Let them make their choices. You don't have to like what they do, but show them love and respect and let them live their lives.
What cracks me up, Let it Be, is that you're so stupid you didn't even manage to figure out that I was commenting from your side of the field in support of your post.
Maybe you should take a class in reading comprehension.
There's another way to look at it. May gay people claim to be "born this way." From my understanding of the bible and the words of Jesus I'd have to agree with them. They are born this was in the same way I was born a fornicator, a liar and a self serving egoist. We're all born this way. We're born members of a fallen race needing salvation. Thankfully, Jesus also said, "you must be born again," and he provided a way for this to happen. Faith in him, and the cleansing power of his blood, leads to spiritual birth and freedom from the sin that binds us and separates us from God. Many, many former sinners (former gay people included) can attest to this fact.
Fornately I have freedom from sin and an not fallen – and all without your god.
Where does the Bible ask you to forgo marriage to the person you love? Being gay is not a 'sin' or a 'crime'; it injures no one. Idiots like you just make Christians look worse and worse.
There are no "former" gay people ... only people who desire to live a celibate lifestyle. I would think by now we should all know you can't "pray away the gay" no more than you can pray to change your skin color or pray to bring a loved one back from the dead.
Yup, that being born again cleansing thing is working so wonderfully for so many ordained Priests out there.
former sinners???? What church do you go to. I'm a born again Christian and sin every day. Thank God for Jesus and thank God he loves ignorant people too.
Your argument is invalid. People who lie or fornicate are not denied the right to marry the person they love.
Being born gay is an innate natural variant of human sèxual orientation. No one is born a fornicator, and it isn't an orientation. No one is born a liar, and it isn't an orientation. No one is boen an egoist, and it isn't an orientation.
You, like most fundiots (fundamentalist îdioits) don't have a freaking cue about the science involved here, do you?
General note to everyone:
I could not be more pleased with the sort of christians that come to these discussions.. Their intelligence and argumentation are so poor as to be irrelevant in the actual debate of logical and consistent ideas.. I'm encouraged with the sheer number of atheist posters and their fantastic arguments (about 75% very, very reasonable), but I'm probably just as encouraged by the believer posters and their horrible, nonsensical "arguments?" (about 95% very, very unreasonable)..
It's gonna be a bright, bright, bright sun shiny day!!
There's a very high probability of the Sun rising tomorrow to justify that faith.
You don't seem to understand either physics or faith.
There's a very high probability that I will make a poo poo today too. Does that help justify your faith as well?
Oh come on.
Dicitionary 2.
"belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact."
I can't prove that the Sun WILL rise tomorrow. Nor can you. If something nasty flies into the Solar system and into the Sun near to light speed, it could upset the whole apple cart.
Unfortunately momoya, as long as these ridiculous religious people with their idiotic logic are affecting policies, it will not be a bright sunny day.
@Tony
I can make reasonable conclusions about probabilities.. I don't have faith in the sun rising tomorrow, I simply assume it will as it has about a gagillion, trilliion times before now.. It's a reasonable assumption.. No faith is required.. To believe that the sun will NOT rise tomorrow takes a ton of faith, not that it will do as it has for several billion years now.
The debate is over. Momoya's reality is truth. Everything must be viewed and evaluated based on her beliefs. I'm right, you're wrong. Sheesh....and the religious are intolerant!!!
@ HIPPockrassee
Most of this discussion is from christians who want to impose their beliefs on everyone.