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My Take: The Bible condemns a lot, but here's why we focus on homosexuality
The author writes that it's fine for Christians to take certain biblical condemnations seriously while ignoring others.
May 21st, 2012
10:00 AM ET

My Take: The Bible condemns a lot, but here's why we focus on homosexuality

Editor's Note: R. Albert Mohler Jr. is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world.

By R. Albert Mohler Jr., Special to CNN

Are conservative Christians hypocritical and selective when it comes to the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality? With all that the Bible condemns, why the focus on gay sex and same-sex marriage?

Given the heated nature of our current debates, it’s a question conservative Christians have learned to expect. “Look,” we are told, “the Bible condemns eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics and any number of other things. Why do you ignore those things and insist that the Bible must be obeyed when it comes to sex?”

On its face, it’s a fair question. But it can be posed in two very different ways.

First, the question can be asked to suggest that the Bible’s clear condemnation of sexual sins can simply be set aside. The other way of posing the question represents a genuine attempt to understand how the Bible is to be rightly applied to life today.

In truth, those asking the question the first way really don’t want an answer.

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An honest consideration of the Bible reveals that most of the biblical laws people point to in asking this question, such as laws against eating shellfish or wearing mixed fabrics, are part of the holiness code assigned to Israel in the Old Testament. That code was to set Israel, God’s covenant people, apart from all other nations on everything from morality to diet.

As the Book of Acts makes clear, Christians are not obligated to follow this holiness code. This is made clear in Peter’s vision in Acts 10:15. Peter is told, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”

In other words, there is no kosher code for Christians. Christians are not concerned with eating kosher foods and avoiding all others. That part of the law is no longer binding, and Christians can enjoy shrimp and pork with no injury to conscience.

The Bible’s commands on sexual behavior, on the other hand, are continued in the New Testament. When it comes to homosexuality, the Bible’s teaching is consistent, pervasive, uniform and set within a larger context of law and Gospel.

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

The Old Testament clearly condemns male homosexuality along with adultery, bestiality, incest and any sex outside the covenant of marriage. The New Testament does not lessen this concern but amplifies it.

The New Testament condemns both male and female homosexual behavior. The Apostle Paul, for example, points specifically to homosexuality as evidence of human sinfulness. His point is not merely that homosexuals are sinners but that all humanity has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The New Testament condemns a full range of sexual sins, and homosexuality is specified among these sins. In Romans, Paul refers to homosexuality in terms of “dishonorable passions,” “contrary to nature” and “shameless.” As New Testament scholar Robert Gagnon has stated, the Bible’s indictment “encompasses every and any form of homosexual behavior.”

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality?

Some people then ask, “What about slavery and polygamy?” In the first place, the New Testament never commands slavery, and it prizes freedom and human dignity. For this reason, the abolitionist movement was largely led by Christians, armed with Christian conviction.

The Old Testament did allow for polygamy, though it normalizes heterosexual monogamy. In the New Testament, Jesus made clear that marriage was always meant to be one man and one woman.

“Have you not read that He who created them made them male and female?” Jesus asked in Matthew. "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” For this reason, Christians have opposed polygamy on biblical grounds.

Why are Christians so concerned with homosexuality? In the first place, that question is answered by the simple fact that it is the most pressing moral question of our times. Christians must be concerned about adultery, pornography, injustice, dishonesty and everything the Bible names as sin. But when my phone rings with a call from a reporter these days, the question I am asked is never adultery or pornography. It is about homosexuality.

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Christians who are seriously committed to the authority of the Bible have no choice but to affirm all that the Bible teaches, including its condemnation of homosexuality. At the same time, our confidence is that God condemns those things that will bring his human creatures harm and commands those things that will lead to true human happiness and flourishing.

In other words, we understand that the Bible condemns all forms of sin because our Creator knows what is best for us. The Bible names sins specifically so that each of us will recognize our own sinfulness and look to Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of our sins.

Christian love requires that we believe and teach what the Bible teaches and that we do so with both strong conviction and humble hearts. The Church must repent of our failures in both of these tasks, but we must not be silent where the Bible speaks.

Are Christians hypocrites in insisting that homosexual behavior is sin? We, too, are sinners, and hypocrisy and inconsistency are perpetual dangers.

The church failed miserably in the face of the challenge of divorce. This requires an honest admission and strong corrective.

At the same time, this painful failure must remind us that we must not fail to answer rightly when asked what the Bible teaches about homosexuality. Love requires us to tell the truth.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of R. Albert Mohler Jr.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Bible • Christianity • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (7,995 Responses)
  1. Surthurfurd

    Well lots of "Christians" are sure that no one has ever been sentenced to death by a state when they were innocent or meaning no harm... odd considering their founding.

    May 22, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • Drew

      Jesus would be sorry to that his followers have become apologists for injustice and defenders of the status quo

      May 22, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • Surthurfurd

      Drew.. It seems that far too many of these "Christians" have far more in common with those running the money changing tables in the temple than they do with Jesus and his early followers.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Drew

      Yup. Xtians love to harp on scripture, how about this (which Jesus ACTUALLY said): "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"

      May 22, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
  2. hipster

    Whether or not it's in the bible is irrelevent.

    Here's what matters (and I'm going to make this brief because I have some cool stuff to do this afternoon that nobody else knows about):

    1. Why does it matter so much to Christians what other people do in the privacy of their own homes? Does it really bother them that much?

    2. Whether the government "legalizes" or recognizes gay marriage shouldn't have anything to do with the bible. Separation of church and state.

    End of discussion.

    May 22, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      Well Said!

      May 22, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
    • Rob

      The reason it matters is simple.

      1. It is sinful. To separate a persons public and private life as you suggest is not possible. One will inevitably spill over into the other.

      2. The second reason is that the fabric our our culture is - like a fishing net - built from many strands and knots. IF these knots are a realistic metaphor for strong families, then our fishing net is dissolving before our eyes. What do you think the net is going to be replaced with? Are myriads more broken families good for our culture? Busted up marriages, estranged and messed up kids, and now the icing on the cake - marriage itself being undermined and redefined?

      The question you need to ask yourself is, do we want our culture to survive?

      Let's assume that a culture requires a certain level of morality to function. As personal morality dissolves falls away and the necessary standards fall (just look around), the state (e.g. the law) will need to bring the standard back up again in order to survive. This by necessity will mean that the state will have to personally intrude and regulate and interfere in our lives. For Christians, this is certain to mean that eventually the state will persecute us.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:31 pm |
    • sam

      NO ROB. If it's sinful to YOU, don't do it. Stop this 'fabric of society' nonsense. No one but you has to live by the rules of your ancient book.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • Bet

      @ rob

      What a crock. Why do you and your imaginary friend get to decide what's sinful and what isn't?

      Hetero couples are doing a fine job of undermining and redefining marriage all on their own. According to your bible, divorce isn't permitted, yet the divorce rate among christians is just as high as any other group. Get off your high horse about the "fabric of society".

      May 22, 2012 at 7:27 pm |
  3. Rob

    What a load. The reason that they go after gay people is because they are a minority and are easy to go after – or they were in the past. Now that they are gaining more support suddenly these Christians find themselves being pushed back when they start their hate speech.

    Also, it would "hit home" if they went after for example adulterers – the bible is pretty clear on what to do to folks who commit adultery – and yet not a sound – of course not because they would lose a lot of their congregation if they acted against adulterers...

    May 22, 2012 at 5:40 pm |
  4. ladybrenwyn

    I am straight, raised in the Episcopal church, but do not need a written guide to be a good human being. I have read alot of blogs in the last week. The issues of various religions / divisions with differing beliefs, the age / time of the of King James (the only one I know, so far), translation issues, society changes since they were written and selective reliance all are valid concerns to me. The writings of the country's Founding Fathers carried weight for me.

    If it comes to a vote – which should never happen with civil rights – I will vote for marriage equality. It’s called Equal Protection. Denial of what are clearly civil rights to a minority based on any religious criteria isn't acceptable to me. Render unto Caesar.

    Re choice, of course it is a claim of a certain segment. It can’t be genetic. (The fallback position, watch for it in the future, is that it is a defective gene, if it is a gene.) If it is genetic – where do our genes come from? Our parents. Uh oh. Their interpretation of the Bible tells them that it was / is a major bad, so that’s it. But such a terrible thing can’t come from them. They are not a factor. Can’t be. It has to be the full responsibility of the child, must be his / her choice completely, alone, sole responsibility. Choice, not their genetics. Science is wrong. Honest.

    May 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • JWT

      A fortune in research wasted when you had the answer all along. It's not a choice and there is no sin or fault in anyone involved.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • Bet

      Your final paragraph is something I hadn't thought of, but makes perfect sense. Christian hetero couples don't want to admit that they produce gay babies just like the rest of us heteros.

      May 22, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
  5. mikeithomas

    Jesus Christ is the King of all and the savior of many!

    May 22, 2012 at 5:28 pm |
    • Drew

      (citation needed)

      May 22, 2012 at 5:31 pm |
    • JWT

      Not my king. No doubt there.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • Bet

      Says you. He's not my king.

      May 22, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
  6. WDinDallas

    The Father sent the Son (Jesus) to sort things out. The Jews had started making things up. God only spoke to Moses and certain prophets, the Jews made most of the laws up.

    When in doubt, go with the New Testament.

    If you are a trolling Atheist, try Jesus.

    May 22, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
    • Drew

      Wait, why is the New Testament any more accurate? It was written generations after Christ

      May 22, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
    • J.W

      Wow it was written generations after Christ now. The period of time in between just keeps getting longer and longer.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • Drew

      It was. Paul wrote his earliest letters around 60 AD. Christ was crucified in 33 AD. Look it up

      May 22, 2012 at 5:28 pm |
    • J.W

      The word you used was 'generations.'

      May 22, 2012 at 5:32 pm |
    • Drew

      Given the lifespan in those days, 30 years is a few generations. The Gospel of Mark wasn't set down until about ten years later, and the earliest we can date Peter is about 190 AD.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:35 pm |
    • J.W

      Really? So what you are saying is basically people lived to be like 10 years old back then.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • Drew

      Generation doesn't refer to lifespan but to the span between the birth of a mother and her daughter, for example. Most people would have probably been married by 15, so yes 30 years is 2 generations. And remember, that is the absolute earliest. Incidentally, the new testament wasn't even compiled until centuries after christ

      May 22, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • J.W

      Well 2 and a few are two different things. And just because the books weren't compiled into the Bible doesn't mean the writings didn't exist.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • Drew

      Well obviously the writings existed. Of course that raises another problem: the early church fathers decided what would become holy scripture based on what they chose to include or exclude from the new testament. Do you really trust powerful men with political ambitions to choose the truly divinely inspired texts, out of the many hundreds read by early Christians? I certainly don't

      May 22, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      This is HOGWASH! For the Christian Trolls out there, TRY SOME COMMON SENSE!

      May 22, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • J.W

      Well but those other texts are available. Maybe certain texts were not available during that time. I forget the websites I go to sometimes lostbooks.com or something like that that has many of the writings not included in the Bible.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • Drew

      Well it's to your credit that you check them out. I was really just trying to illustrate why I don't think that the New Testament need be taken quite as seriously as people take it

      May 22, 2012 at 5:58 pm |
  7. MennoKnight

    Bet,
    Everything moral decision is a choice.
    Choice:
    I choose not to lie.
    I choose to tell the truth.
    I choose not to cheat.
    I choose to work hard
    I choose not to sleep with anybody but my wife.

    Nobody forces anybody to do anything they don't want to, unless they are being abused and that is against the law.

    I choose to follow the New Testament teachings on how to make those choices.

    May 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • Bet

      You didn't choose to be hetero. You were born hetero.

      Comparing your orientation to lying, stealing or cheating is not a valid argument. Those acts infringe on the rights of others. Being gay doesn't infringe on anyone's rights.

      Science and medicine, at least in this century, doesn't agree with you.

      Maybe you're gay and just don't want to admit it.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
    • J.W

      You are making the assumption of what is moral and what is not. There may be things that you do that others do not find moral. So what if someone passed a law that you could not do those things?

      May 22, 2012 at 5:13 pm |
    • North Guy

      Hey Mr Bet.....why don't you end all of our suffering and provide us with the scientific data that shows that gays are born that way. Wow....then this whole discussion would be over – the whole world, including CNN could relax...Come on explain it to us...?? You see....you cannot – because there is no evidence....none. Maybe you will shock us and bring more proof instead of insults and dumb one liners.....I dare you

      May 22, 2012 at 5:35 pm |
    • J.W

      Actually North Guy you could probably just Google it. Most of the scientific articles I think will say that.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
    • YeahRight

      Being gay is not a choice. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      May 22, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • michael

      Northguy, there are a ton of scientific, peer reviewed studies which indicate being gay is in our DNA and not one which indicates its a choice. Have you ever used Google before?

      May 22, 2012 at 6:54 pm |
  8. Dave

    @ BET and JUNGLBOO Just because two consentual parties are needed for a hom-o-se-xual act does not negate the fact that a choice is made to commit such an act ...thus the choice. Jungleboo..... so if i think about killing somebody am I a murderer? Or if i think Brad Pitt is a hot man am i gay? You are defined by your actions not your thoughts! A person is not gay until committing a gay act!! A person can think about stealing and immediately push out of their mind or dwell on it and risk the chance of their self-control being lost and act on that thought. It is a choice whether or not you continue to battle hom-o-se-xual thoughts or dismiss them from your mind and not act on them.Thus the choice!

    May 22, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • xjdavid

      Doesn't the Bible say that whatever you think in your heart, that's what you are?

      May 22, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
    • Bet

      Again, you fail to consider informed consent. Murder victims do not consent to be murdered. Your argument is invalid.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
    • Dave

      @ BET Just because two consentual parties are needed for a hom-o-se-xual act does not negate the fact that a choice is made to commit such an act ...thus the choice.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:24 pm |
    • Bet

      @ Dave

      They made a choice to have s6x. They didn't make a choice about who they are s e x ua lly attracted to.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • jungleboo

      You seem to be in a state of terror, Dave. You are clinging to the idea that you must "act" on being gay to be "guilty of the sin". First of all, it's not a sin, but all that aside, if you are attracted to men s.xually, you're gay, done deal. It has nothing to do with your having done the deed. If they've fed you this line at church, that you aren't gay unless you've committed the act, you are sadly mistaken. That is known as "being in the closet". Being in the closet is a very old story, and it was made necessary by churches such as yours. Come out. Enjoy your life. The world will not end because you decided to be man enough to face the music and dance. Or is that not allowed either?

      May 22, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Just because two consentual parties are needed for a hom-o-se-xual act does not negate the fact that a choice is made to commit such an act ...thus the choice."

      The point is they have shown that being gay is not a choice, it's not a mental illness and it can't be voluntarily changed. Gay people deserve to have the same loving intimate long term relationships that straights do. You know prejudice people use to try to make similar arguments against biracial relationship too and they were proven WRONG in those cases.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
    • michael

      According to Christ, any man who lusts after a woman in his heart has committed adultery so Dave if you think Brad Pitt is hot then, yes, you are gay. Being gay isn't about what you do but who you are.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:57 pm |
    • sam

      I think you have gay people confused with vampires.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
  9. Bet

    @ Dino

    Please provide evidence that science has proved that being gay is a choice. Because no legitimate scientific, medical or psychiatric community agrees with you.

    Do you have a super secret lab somewhere with super secret research going on?

    May 22, 2012 at 4:52 pm |
    • sam

      I fear to guess what kind of experiments might be involved...

      May 22, 2012 at 7:17 pm |
  10. MennoKnight

    Bet,
    What you are saying can go for me thinking about Megan Fox or somebody else who is not my wife. I Choose not to think of her that way because:
    1. That affects my marriage
    2. That goes against the teachings that I choose to follow on how to live my life: the New Testament

    I Choose in your own words not to not "think about hot sweaty man love" because I have trained myself not to think that way.

    Your understanding of the Christian faith is flawed because you have not read and studied "the manual", the New Testament. Start with reading the book of Luke / Acts then read some of Paul's shorter letters as a starting point.

    And by the way, all these choices about how to live aren't the thing that gets me into heaven or gets me kicked out of heaven, living faith in Jesus alone saves. Lifestyle choices (which this is simply just one of many) are an ongoing outworking of what has occurred inside of me because of my faith in God.

    Steve, You are correct in saying that people are weak. I know I am. My brain tells me to do one thing yet I do the exact opposite at times. I want to do good, yet I do evil. Oh what a hopeless fool I am.
    Praise be to God for Jesus Christ, only He can save me from myself.

    May 22, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
    • Bet

      How arrogant can you be? You have no idea what I've read or studied. Don't tell me what I understand and don't understand.

      I posted this elsewhere on the thread but will copy it here for you:

      I used to be a catholic, and then a born again christian. I remember sitting down with my parish priest to ask him some questions about catholic doctrine. His ignorance of the bible absolutely stunned me. He misquoted entire passages. He had no knowledge of the OT outside of Moses in the bullrushes, Adam and Eve, Job, and Noah, which are taught to catholics in kindergarten. He contradicted himself, got angry when I asked for clarification, and told me that I needed to stop reading the bible because I "wasn't educated, like he was". I resigned from my position as a teacher in his catholic school at the end of the term and left the catholic church.

      My experience with the born again movement was the same. Everything was fine until I started asking questions. The minister couldn't keep his stories straight, guilted me, as well as the rest of the congregation, into giving him money that I didn't have and couldn't afford to give, yet he lived in a million dollar mansion and drove an expensive car. His wife wore designer clothes and drove a Lincoln. He got angry with me when he couldn't come up with answers to fundamental questions, and finally told me that women shouldn't be trying to understand the bible – that I should just do what the men said. Then I was systematically shut out from the congregation.

      My final attempt was in private study with a born again christian scholar. I studied the bible in Aramaic, Latin and Greek as well as English. This teacher told me that I shouldn't accept anyone's word about the bible, not even his, and that I should always question what others said because they usually have motives other than my "salvation", probably my money. He was the only christian I've ever met who said that. I studied with him for ten years until I studied myself right out of believing in any god. He passed away recently, but he gave me a gift that I will always treasure – the confidence to think for myself. I didn't agree with him on theology, but I admire that he was secure enough to let me question it on my own. He also respected my decision to leave and we stayed in touch till the end. I still correspond with his wife.

      I'd wager that I know a lot more about the bible than you do. And I know that your bible has a few rules about pride and arrogance in it.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • J.W

      Lol Bet I do have to admit that that is my pet peeve on this blog, when people assume that I haven't studied or do not understand something, or that they already know what I believe without ever seeing anything I have ever posted.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
    • michael

      Wow, Bet, that is the most spot on, mind blowing post I think I may have ever read on a relgion blog. It's a shame we couldn't grab a cup of coffee and talk. I find it fascinating when one can fully respect a difference of religious opinion however I didn't see any difference in ours.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • Real Deal

      Bet,

      Yes!

      A long life, good health and peace to you.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
  11. NickZadick

    I completely fail to understand the relevance of ANYTHING that is said in ancient books of fairy tales.... be them christian, muslim, jew etc . How can the author's best guess on the inner workings of how the world works be relevant when science has already answered all but where the actual bigbang came from.

    May 22, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
    • melody

      I fail to understand why only your opinions, thoughts or feelings are the only ones that matter on this subject? Can you explain that one to me?????

      May 22, 2012 at 4:28 pm |
    • jungleboo

      Dear Melody,
      In case you have come late to the party, religious nut cases are attempting to see that a certain segment of our American population is held as second class citizens. This segment wishes to be granted the right to a legalized union, in which dozens of rights confer. The religious nut cases are telling us that their god says no. We are telling them that our American freedoms include freedom from their god's viewpoint. That's why you are reading what you are reading.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:35 pm |
    • Ruff

      The historical book callled Josephus mentions Jesus's time in Jerusalem. To many this ref to Jesus – proves he walked this earth – the question really is over who He was......check it on Wikpedia

      May 22, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
    • NickZadick

      @ Ruff – Proving that he exists is one thing... I believe he probably did... but that if you believe what he says and you and you alone get to go to disneyland in the sky and not me...well ... that is soooooo childish I am amazed your brain can actually buy that crâp!!

      May 22, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
    • ruf

      Sorry Nick.....just below this discussion Mr Bet is asking for even one ref that proves Jesus walked the earth.....and through this discussion many other have as well....Here is a ref that is considered quite acurate. Glad you agree:):):) The words of Jesus and who He is – is another discussion and one best not had with you

      May 22, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • Bet

      @ ruf

      Sean provided a pretty good reference that has legitimate scholarship behind it and I stand corrected. A person named Jesus once lived and died. I can admit when I don't know something and learn something new.

      But you'll never convince me that the bible is the word of god or that Jesus is god. He was a man, lived, died and rotted away like everyone else.

      And it's Ms. Bet to you.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
    • OTOH

      ruf,

      Historical figures like Hesiod and Plato frequently mentioned Hercules in their writings. The gospels tell a narrative history of Jesus. Homer and Aesop tells stories and quote the words of Hercules. We have a very brief mention of Jesus by Josephus in "Antiquities", but Josephus mentions Hercules many times. Tacitus mentions a character named Christos, who is likely to be Jesus, but he mentions Hercules more times in "Annals" also.

      Therefore, Hercules, and his supernatural feats must be true too?!

      May 22, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
    • Bet

      @ ruff

      You said "The words of Jesus and who He is – is another discussion and one best not had with you"

      What are you so afraid of? That you can't defend your Jesus and his supposed divinity? That you don't know the bible well enough to make a case for it, even though you've based your entire belief system on it? Way to go.

      At least I can admit when someone makes a good point. I didn't run away from it, even though it's only a single reference to a person with the name of Christos.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:09 pm |
    • ruf

      Bet...to go on and discuss that Jesus Christ is in fact God with someone who does not believe and thinks this is "disney world crap'....is a waste of both our time. The further discussion involves our faith and personal experiences. I have had so many supernatural experiences with Jesus, have seen miracles, and have seen the dark side of the spiritual world.....I have no choice......but to follow Jesus....have moved way past bad church experiences and have moved on to heaven experiences......none of you would be interested in this. There are men and women on the earth today who can answer just about any question any of you could come up with........the church at large would not even recognize their names...anyway once you have moved past the church and the people and begin to connect with heaven – seeing angels etc........there is no doubt in the slightest that God exists and His kingdom is a place beyond all you can imagine

      May 23, 2012 at 2:30 am |
    • Bet

      @ruff

      I have to agree with you on that one. It's a waste of time to discuss anything intelligently with someone who claims he has seen angels, witnessed "miracles", has supernatural experiences with Jesus and has seen the dark side.

      Just one question, does Darth Vader breathe like that all the time? It's so annoying.

      May 23, 2012 at 3:14 am |
  12. Dave

    A gay is made in the same way a murderer or thief is made. Commit an act of murder and you are a murderer . Commit an act of thievery and you are a thief. Commit a hom-o-se-xual act and you are gay. Until the choice of acting on the thoughts to commit any of these acts is made the person cannot be defined as such. A person is not a murderer until committing murder . A person is not a thief until they steal and person is not gay until they commit a hom-o-se-xual act. A choice must be made! A person is defined by their actions! Having s-e-x at all is a choice not an irresistable animal instinct!

    May 22, 2012 at 4:12 pm |
    • Bet

      I'm going to repeat this for the twenty millionth time:

      Comparing gay people to murderers and thieves is a common, but fallacious argument that christians resort to when they are confronted with the truth. It completely discounts informed consent

      Murder victims don't give consent to be murdered. Victims of theft don't consent to have their property stolen.

      No legitimate medical, psychiatric or scientific community supports your claim that people make a choice to be gay. They aren't hurting anyone. They are consenting adults who are completely normal in every way. They didn't choose to be gay any more than you chose to be hetero. You knew you were hetero long before you ever touched a woman.

      Although, come to think of it, you probably haven't actually been anywhere near a woman, unless it's one of your stalking victims. Who'd want to be with a slow witted neanderthal like you?

      May 22, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • jungleboo

      And Dave, without being too offensive about it, a person can indeed be gay without acting on the impulse. First, there is the evidence of an overwhelming personal attraction to a member of one's s.x. A person lives with that, day in, day out. But if one has been born unattractive to begin with, the chances of finding a willing partner diminish considerably. By your definition, a person is not gay unless they have consummated the deal. Ludicrous. You are a person without a very good idea of the passionate side of human nature. Was it crushed when you were growing up? At church meetings?

      May 22, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
    • ladybrenwyn

      It seems that by this theory you are not hetero until you have relations with a female. Which you know isn't true.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • Bet

      That's because he probably hasn't had relations with a woman yet. At least not one that doesn't have "Made in China" stamped on her.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
  13. Reality

    Summarizing with a prayer:

    The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized"/"miraclized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
    ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (References used are available upon request.)

    May 22, 2012 at 4:12 pm |
    • Bet

      So you rewrote some chant which you are trying to pass it off as truth AND you can provide references? Bravo!

      Give me one single reference from a credible, verifiable, peer-reviewed, science-based source that proves that Jesus actually walked the earth.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
    • Sean

      @Bet:

      Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman Historian mentions that Jesus was the founder of the Christians and was put to death by Pontius Pilate. (Writing in 112 AD)
      Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (born in 37 AD) mentions that Jesus' brother James was stoned after he was brought before a council assembled by Ananus.
      Thallus, one of the first Gentile writers, wrote to try and explain away the darkness that occurred when Jesus died. (Writing in 52 AD)
      Pliny the Younger, Governor of Bithynia, wrote a report on how he was killing both Christian men and women, boys and girls. There were so many being put to death that he wondered if he should only kill certain ones. (Writing in 106 AD). Why would so many people die for someone that didn't exist?

      May 22, 2012 at 4:47 pm |
    • Sean

      @Bet

      The Talmud citations (Jewish writings from AD 100-500) are contested and some feel that they hold little value when it comes to the historicity of Christ. However, a worthwhile point that can be derived from the Talmud is that it provides no indication that Jesus was a mythical figure. Although the rabbinic sources may not contain clear references to Jesus – from the fact that the Talmudists concentrated on smearing Jesus' legitimacy rather than focusing on the issue of Jesus' existence, we may deduce that they had no grounds whatever for doubting his historical existence. [3]

      The following is an example from one of the writings (note that the Talmud uses the term hanging when referring to Roman crucifixion)

      "On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) … he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover"

      May 22, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • I Don't Get It

      Sean,
      "Why would so many people die for someone that didn't exist?"

      Here are 23 pages of Muslim martyrs:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Muslim_martyrs

      Why? Why, indeed.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • Bet

      @Sean

      Thank you for the references and it appears that you have given me one that has been vetted. So someone named Jesus probably did live at one time and he died. I stand corrected.

      You'll never convince me that he is god though.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • michael

      Bet, I don't think the main issue is if Christ existed or not. Its if His followers actually follow what He preached? Live thy neighbor? Do not judge less you be judged? The main ideals of His teachings of love, compassion and forgiveness are lost on almost every fundamentalist.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
    • Bet

      @michael

      That's assuming that Jesus actually said those things. And no, most christians that I know don't.

      May 22, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
  14. scoob

    but i would really like to know why you can post such heinous things but if i say 's6x' i get blocked

    May 22, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • sam

      It's fucking magic, man!

      May 22, 2012 at 7:10 pm |
  15. Furby

    Mr. Mohler, I'd like to think that even you, in the dark watches of the night, in your heart of hearts occasionally feel troubled about defending hate and bigotry.

    May 22, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • Cindy

      What he is doing is leading people astray.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
    • Bet

      He's too busy with gay p o r n and a jar of vaseline to worry about little things like spreading bigotry through his bully pulpit.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
  16. Kindness

    Some thoughts to consider without a typical ego response....

    Accept Jesus christ as your lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Let go and let god".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from som other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    Your all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome .

    May 22, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • a person of the Name

      This is true even for me. Being filled with the Holy Spirit was eye opening everything changed. I seen the world in a different light. Was able to understand the meaning of the Bible. Trust in the Lord and He shall lead you.
      Also read Acts.

      May 22, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Your all smart people . I tell the truth"

      LMAO Your all smart people . I tell the truth = EGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      May 22, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Bet

      "Your all smart people"

      It's "you're", genius.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • NickZadick

      I fail to see what truth there is in ancient bronze age fairy tales wriiten by unknown authors, years after the facts and which promises an eternal disney land in the sky for joining their "club"! If it brings you peace, well good for you... still just stories though...I prefer not living my life according to myths...but apparentely, you seem to be in majority...at least in USA

      May 22, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
    • jungleboo

      Christianity % as a piece of census data may indicate that the majority in the USA check "Christian" for religious affiliation. But the fundamentalists represented here are by no means in the majority. They are a minority, same as gays are. They have opened their mouths outside of church and have gotten themselves noticed big time, but that soon will pass into obscurity. they are just being exposed as bigots with a divine pedigree. My dog is better than your dog, something like that.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:52 pm |
  17. kindness

    A thought to consider without a typical ego response

    Accept Jesus christ as your lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Let go and let god".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from som other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    Your all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome .

    May 22, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Your all smart people . I tell the truth. I"

      LMAO! Your all smart people . I tell the truth. = EGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      May 22, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
  18. Bet

    Here's a good one. It got buried late last night on page 67, but it's such a gem that I couldn't resist reposting it. This guy is defending the christian church's record of hate, intolerance and bigotry:

    Voodoorick posted:

    "How about the abolitionist movement? How about the efforts to feed, house, clothe, and educate those in poverty throughout the world? Why is it my Christian friends post things on Facebook drawing attention to world hunger, human trafficking, etc, at a much higher rate then everyone else on my feed and my friends' feeds?
    I mean seriously, do you have blinders on?"

    Yup, he's actually saying that the number of Facebook posts he and his christian friends have proves how caring christianity is. I laugh ever single time I read it.

    May 22, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • Ruff

      Keep laughing Bet.....what he is witnessing on his fb is just the tip of the iceberg. The Faith community world wide are the feeding hand of God on this earth......largest givers of food, $$, water, workers......suck it up. check the stats

      May 22, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • Ruff

      Keep laughing Bet.....what he is witnessing on his fb is just the tip of the iceberg. The Faith community world wide are the .....largest givers of food, $$, water, workers......suck it up. check the stats

      May 22, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • Bet

      I am still laughing.

      Defending christian bigotry by counting your Facebook posts? Are you kidding me?

      Facebook is a toilet. Come to think of it, that's exactly where your bible belongs.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:56 pm |
  19. MennoKnight

    Everything is a choice.

    Never let anybody tell you you don't choose the life that you live.

    The greatest lie is that you don't have a choice. Don't fall for that lie.

    May 22, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • Bet

      Did you have a choice to be hetero?

      May 22, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • MennoKnight

      Yes

      May 22, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Everything is a choice. "

      Gays do NOT have a choice in their sexual orientation. You didn't have a choice in your hair color, your eye color, your skin color so NO not everything is a choice. Only prejudice bigots use that line. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      May 22, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • MennoKnight

      All moral decisions are made by a choice.
      He.te.ros.ex.ua.lity is a choice
      Hom.ose.xua.lity is a choice
      Bes.tia.lity is a choice
      Pol.yga.my is a choice
      Mon.oga.my is a choice
      Bi is a choice
      It is always a choice who you will have s.ex with and how many partners you will have.

      It is a great lie to say that you do not choose who you have s.ex with.

      A gene does not make you have se.x with anybody.
      It's your choice.

      I CHOOSE to follow the teaching of the NEW Testament.

      May 22, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • enfilmigult

      You're wrong. I mean, I am a gay person and I did make a choice, but the choice I made was to be straight. And I didn't merely choose it, I wanted it with every fiber of my being, possibly more than I've wanted anything...and it got me nowhere, because I'm not straight, I'm gay. I would have been as successful "choosing" to grow an extra finger on each hand. It simply doesn't work that way.

      May 22, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • Erik

      "He.te.ros.ex.ua.lity is a choice
      Hom.ose.xua.lity is a choice"

      Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

      All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

      Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

      In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

      The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

      On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

      Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

      But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

      This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

      The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

      Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

      Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

      Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

      May 22, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • MennoKnight

      enfilmigult,
      First off, Thank-you for your response without name calling and for sharing your personal story.

      For me I made the choice to be het.eros.ex.ual.
      I chose to be celi.bate until marriage (not easy in this culture).
      I choose not to view po.rn (very hard not to do in this culture).
      I choose to be mon.oga.mous (not easy in this culture)

      It is not easy to be a het.erose.xual, mon.oga.mous male who does not view p.orn in this s.ex filled society today.

      I don't have a easy answer or some pat answer for you. I am simply telling you about my life and I that my views on choice comes from the New Testament.
      The people of the New Testament who lived in the Roman Empire lived in a culture very similar to what we are seeing today in terms of what choices are acceptable.
      All I can say to you is I do believe you do have a choice, and some choices are much harder to follow through with today than they have been in the more recent past.

      Blessings to you and again thanks for the fair personal story.

      Erik,
      WAY to long, simply cut and paste from somebody else. Shorten it please and say it in your own words, then we can talk much more personally.

      May 22, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • Bet

      Bet said:
      Did you have a choice to be hetero?

      MennoKnight said:
      Yes

      Really? So you tried it both ways and found that you preferred to be hetero? Or did you just think about hot sweaty man love and make your choice? Isn't lu sting in your heart the same as actually doing the deed, according to your god? Either way, you're gonna burn for that one. Better start praying.

      I call bullmanure. You didn't choose to be hetero any more than you chose to be right or left handed. Liar.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • Steve

      Your orientation IS a choice. Just because you give in to that choice and are weak doesn't negate the fact that you have to admit you are weak. Beasstiality may be repulsive to all of us, but guess what, some choose to do it. Its all a choice. Those that say otherwise are just WEAK.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • Ruff

      Wow...total confusion batman!! Oprah had a large group of gay and lesbians who stated unequivically – that they CHOSE this lifestyle and did not want to be considered a genetic mistake......

      May 22, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • Dino

      It is a choice. The "born that way'......argument cannot be proven with any science – they have tried.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
    • Bet

      @ Ruff

      Really, you are using the Oprah show to prove your point? Oprah will put anyone on her show if she makes a dollar off it.

      How do you know they were actually gay? Because they said so on the Oprah show? Because it's Oprah? She's had plenty of liars come on her show and look into the camera.

      Were they gay genetic physicists? Did they have their DNA analyzed and compared to other gays and heteros in a legitimate research facility? How did they know it wasn't genetic? I won't use your word "mistake" because gay people aren't mistakes.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
    • Bet

      @ Steve

      Wrong. Liar.

      May 22, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • ruf

      Bet – you need to turn on your listening ears.....it was not Oprah promoting these thoughts.....Oprah believes gays are born this way. It was a large group from the gay and lebian community – and they wanted us to know it was THEIR CHOICE!! and that they were not mistakes!! They were gay men and women......this was on 3 years ago and got a fair amount of press

      May 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • Bet

      Ruff

      Condescending, much? Don't try to tell me what I heard.

      I know Oprah supports gay rights. What I said was just because a person appears on Oprah doesn't mean that person isn't lying or delusional. Lots of gays think they can change themselves. They do it because they face bigots and discrimination every day of their lives. They seek a way out of the pain that living in a world where people like you are persecute, ridicule and oppress them. They are mistaken, but you and your fellow christians make this a very difficult world for them to live in.

      A dozen people on a tv show, who may or may not actually be gay, is hardly proof that it's not genetic.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
    • ruf

      Now the gays are liars and cowards too – even on Oprah.....wow......it just seems no one can totally agree with you – "its us or them..." Bet is the only one who is right everybody

      May 22, 2012 at 5:24 pm |
    • Bet

      Ruff,

      Don't put words into my mouth. That's not what I said and you know it. You're using an ad hominem argument because you don't have anything else.

      I'd be afraid too, if I was gay and had to live in the world you christians have created. That doesn't make me a coward.

      And people lie all the time to avoid discrimination. Jews lied to avoid death camps. Light skinned black people have lived as whites to avoid racism. Gays live as straight for the same reason.

      You're correct about one thing though. I'm right about gays being born that way. Thanks for finally admitting that I'm right.

      May 22, 2012 at 5:33 pm |
    • MennoKnight

      It is all about choice people.

      And I choose not to call names, call people liars, and call people idiots (or at least out loud) here on this forum. 🙂

      May 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • North Guy

      As I stated above somewhere.....please give us one drop of evidence that gays are born that way.....scientific proof please....show us what webpage to look at please.......wow I must have missed seeing it in the media on the day it was discovered

      May 22, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • Bet

      @ menno

      Doesn't your arm get tired after hours of patting yourself on the back?

      May 22, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • MennoKnight

      Bet,
      Why, yes, yes it does. 🙂

      May 22, 2012 at 6:09 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "..please give us one drop of evidence that gays are born that way.....scientific proof please"

      Thanks for showing you have really poor reading comprehension skills people have been posting the research. Duh!

      May 22, 2012 at 6:11 pm |
    • Bet

      So you also make the choice to be prideful, arrogant and supercilious.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
    • Bet

      Speaking of supercilious, did you bother to read my response to your arrogant statement to me that you posted above where you said:
      "Your understanding of the Christian faith is flawed because you have not read and studied "the manual", the New Testament. Start with reading the book of Luke / Acts then read some of Paul's shorter letters as a starting point."

      If you want people to take you seriously, you might want to come down off your high horse once in a while. Taking the giant stick out of your tushie would help too.

      May 22, 2012 at 6:54 pm |
  20. Nornoel

    "Everyone of us are guilty of breaking God's law, every second." Are you insane?

    Yes, it sounds outrageous and nonsensical. But no, the poster is not insane: ever hear of original sin? If you're looking for insane, go for the person who thought that one up.

    May 22, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.