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May 22nd, 2012
11:23 AM ET
Video of North Carolina pastor's plan to 'get rid of' gays goes viralBy Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor (CNN) - Video of a North Carolina pastor preaching that gays and lesbians should be rounded up inside an electric fence is going viral on the Internet, two weeks after North Carolina passed a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and President Barack Obama voiced personal support for legalizing such marriages. "I figured a way out, a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers, but I couldn't get it past the Congress," Pastor Charles L. Worley can be seen telling his Providence Road Baptist Church congregation in the video, which had more than 250,000 YouTube views by Tuesday. "Build a great big, large fence - 50 or a 100 miles long - and put all the lesbians in there,” Worley went on to say in his May 13 sermon at his Maiden, North Carolina, church. “Fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals, and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them. And you know in a few years, they'll die out. You know why? They can't reproduce." My Take: The Bible condemns a lot, but here's why we focus on homosexuality The video had initially been posted on Providence Road’s website but was recently taken down, according to CNN affiliate WBTV-TV in Charlotte. The phone line at Worley’s church was busy on Monday night and on Tuesday, as was Worley’s home number on Tuesday. The church’s website was down Tuesday morning, but it had described the house of worship as fundamentalist, meaning it represents a Baptist tradition that's more conservative than the Southern Baptists. My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage Worley’s sermon was posted on YouTube by a group called Catawba Valley Citizens Against Hate, which is organizing a protest at the Providence Road Baptist Church on Sunday. Addressing his congregation last Sunday, Worley referred to his earlier controversial sermon. "I talked a little bit, I believe it was last Sunday, on the homosexual lifestyle, and there was a whole lot of people who didn't like what I said," Worley told his congregation Sunday, according to WBTV. "I want to read it out of the Bible, and then we'll go from there." CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories “Listen, all of the Sodomites, the lesbians, and all of the ... what's that word? Gays - I didn't wanna say 'queers' - that say we don't love you, I love you more than you love yourself,” Worley said, according to WBTV. “I'm praying for you to be saved." Worley’s initial sermon was partly framed as a response to Obama’s endorsement of same-sex marriage, which he made in a TV interview a day after North Carolina voters passed a state constitutional amendment banning legal recognition of such marriages and other types of gay unions. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, or GLAAD, was working Tuesday to gather criticism of Worley’s comments from other North Carolina pastors. “I am angry and sick at heart over Pastor Worley's comments,” said the Rev. Dennis Teall-Fleming, pastor at Open Hearts Gathering in Gastonia, North Carolina, in a statement distributed by GLAAD. “Nothing he says has anything to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” said Teall-Fleming, who leads a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) congregation. “I call on all Christian and Baptist organizations that have any connection with him to condemn his comments as strongly as I do, including Providence Road Baptist Church of Maiden.” soundoff (5,806 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 Next » |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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"Oh I am Gay, don't say that to me, I don't like it, boohooo"
I guess you missed this lesson in grade school. Emotional maturity is defined as: the ability to express one’s own feelings and convictions balanced with consideration for the thoughts and feelings of others.
@Susan: What makes you feel you can post that trash when you have posted nothing else?
Never mind, guys, 'WOW' is our special snowflake troll of the day.
Sam I am must be our daily Dr. Seuss character from fairly land.
I can't wait till our gay president leaves office, then I'm gonna laugh laugh laugh when gay marriage is banned at the federal level.
@Free: AMEN!
That's why so many are now stating that the defense of marriage act is unconstitutional. LOL!
Is the word filter beating me or is this web browser at school the culprit? (ie this is a test)
So let's judge ALL Muslims by those that scream Allah Akbar and blow up buildings and people ......
CNN wouldn't do that would they??? Yes CNN play some of the radical Muslims and the Black Panthers....Huh???
@Mike: Got that RIGHT! You hit that on the spot. Do you think the radical Islamic mind will let any Christian or Gay person left standing if they had it their way? NOPE... OFF WITH THE HEAD!
CNN is merely reporting the facts. If christians don't want to look stupid in tne news, they should stop acting stupidly. Of course, getting out of the christian cult wold be an excellent start.
I have a plan to end stravation. Lock up all the crazy fat pastors and raid their kitchens. I love how the church is always so qiuck to damn the gay community while it's cool for them to take advantage of innocent little boys. So whats worst being gay or a so called straight man of the lord who touches little boys?? Hmmm I'm sure the idiots will say being gay is worst, but that's what happens when your uneducated. In Florida they banned children from a church so a pedophile could preach. The church has been in and out of scandals since the 1980s, & I'm suppose to listen to the biggest sinnners in the world. Really??
Poor gays poor lesbians wah wah wah poor me, help me im special, im a minority, wah wah wah wah wah......SICK
What is your level of education?? Seriously.
"Poor gays poor lesbians wah wah wah poor me, help me im special, im a minority, wah wah wah wah wah......SICK"
Try telling that to all the experts that disagree with you and have shown that prejudice people like you don't know the REAL facts about gays. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
@Yeah: Your comment doesn't even apply to his comment. The fact still stands the gay community is CRY BABIES!
So you and WOW are the same person, right? And you'll get bored eventually and go away?
They are not equal, they are mentally disturbed and evil. Don't believe the liberal media, they want our society to go to the dogs......do you not see this?
*yawn*
Your trolling is getting boring to watch.
Hey Hawaii....do I care?
It is pretty boring. The rest of us are waiting for you to wander off.
Fiddle Dee Diddle, Fiddle Dee Dum, lets go ride rainbows and beat our gay drum! Wake up, this is not fairy land, it's life. Grow up and stop acting like the gay community is such a wounded duck.
You sound just like the people who tried to block African Americans and women their civil rights. You're on the wrong side of history.
Anyone that agrees or supports Passhole Worley in any way is a fucking idiot!
Pastor Worley just gave me a great idea on how to deal with the fundamentalist problem in America...
We've let the gays out of the closet so that they can get societies acceptance. When are we going to let the potheads out of the closet so that they can start getting societies acceptance?
The Potheads tried to organize a public rally, but they all forgot when it was supposed to be.
Gen. Colin Powell just came out in support of gay marriage.
Day by day, week by week, these fundiots circle of hate gets smaller and smaller.
Excellent! Good for him – he always seemed too bright and too grounded to be part of the Bush administration. I really respected him when he did his duty for the administration he worked for and then politely resigned. He impresses me as an independent thinker.
Excellent! Good for him – he always seemed too bright and too grounded to be part of the Bush administration. I really respected him when he did his duty for the administration he worked for and then politely resigned. He impresses me as an independent thinker.
FREE GOD GIVEN SPEECH,it's about time.
Pastor Worley is so blatant in his ways that you can't help but chuckle.
The rebuttal offered by Rev. Welton Gaddy is more in line with mainstream Christians, and that is where you will find me.
When I was young and had a heart I was a liberal, then when I grew up and got a brain.....I wasnt
Funny, when I was young I was more conservative (though I didn't really know it), but my ideals became more politically liberal the more I saw of the larger world and the more education I achieved.
I guess some of us are just smart enough to recognize that helping others ultimately helps ourselves.
Older, wiser, richer and still liberal....
Educated my butt.....you went to a half commy liberal fairyland excuse of a college and got brainwashed. Manual labor would serve you well son.
Freethinker, I can't even imagine where you received what you think of as an education. The result was pitiful. A mind is a terrible thing to waste....
Yeah I just own my own company and live In a house you would beg Obama to steal from me hahaha
Oh markin you are so amer and classy hahaha so cultured and distinguished, my goodness what a big boy.
I highly doubt that's true. Or did you inherit it from mommy and daddy?
"Freethinker" – you have somehow worked yourself into a very dark and ugly place. I hope you can find your way out of it someday. Peace.
If all the gays disappeared I'd be cheering from the rooftop.....good riddance
Freethinker doesn't seem to understand that on the internet everyone is a Mensa member with 2 PhD's, washboard ABS, buns of steel, and incredible wealth. Why just this morning I realized that I have forgotten more about Elizabethan Literature than any normal person could possibly have known.
Sounds like short bus poetry. Did you miss the short bus today, and get to stay home?
You mean 'grew up and became brain-washed', I think.
You will all be judged in the end....when you kids have your own kids youll see how perverted gays are
So will you!! So beware of what you are trying to accomplish!! Read 1 Corinthians 5 and then come back and tell me if you should judge those who are not Christains.
When I have kids I will love them unconditionally. I will accept them for who they are, even if they are different from me. As long as they don't hurt others I will do everything in my power to ensure they have a fantastic life. I will fight for their rights as I currently fight for mine.
God you guys are twisted, brainwashed by reality shows.....real educated
Brainwashed by reality shows? Hardly. I am finishing up my second college degree over the summer.
I just believe in freedom and equality for all...
That made no sense, short bus...why are my kids having my kids? Oh...never mind. That's pretty much the whole bible, right there.
Gay is wrong, it's perverted....ever seen a gay pride parade? That's not genetic,just a freakshow
freethinker: one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially one who doubts or denies religious dogma.
You by definition do not qualify as a freethinker.
Manlover.....you are a whiny brat and I'd bet.....a liberal
I bet you think child molestation is ok....they were born that way....everything is acceptable, and if you disagree you're a hillbilly hahahahaha
Such a coherent counterpoint "freethinker". Self-righteous idiocy at its best folks.
Freethinker, you are scary if you cannot recognize the difference between a relationship between consenting adults and pedophilia. You probably should not be near children.
Wah wah wah you have to accept gays or you are evil. I'm right you're wrong...wah wah wah. Would you take a child to a gay parade? Hha god I hope not. Sicko
Freethinker "gay pride parade...,just a freakshow"
Ever see a Holy Roller "revival"? A Pentecostal one? Some of the AME ones? Get outta here...
let the potheads out of the closet
Well Christians celebrate Christ and gays celebrate genetalia....and perverse behavior, if it weren't for Christians you wouldn't be alive son, did your parents take Christian vows? Dd they believe it? Are you smarter than them? Better off? AHEM
I would take my child to a Pride parade just as I take them to an Independence Day parade. Well, there would probably be a discussion on what it is first, so they can appreciate the fight for equality.
All religions are cults, by definition...
And I'm agin 'em.
Hillbillies.
A reigion is just a cult with more members.
Oh lets live in the fairy tale of all love each other and do what we want!!! Let us ride on rainbows and play with unicorns!!!! REALLY! Grow up gay community
wanting equal rights is hardly rainbows and unicorns
wow grow up wow
Another idiot with a voice.
Just look at the pretend love from you uptight redneck religious lot.. so stunning beautiful!
Your god is just so pleased at this marvelous show of 'love'.
WOW, does that go for all minorities that dream of being treated like humans by the majority? Or is it just gays that you think should just live ( or die ) with unequal treatment?
@HawaiiGuest "The only thing the new covenant says is instead of attoning by sacrificing a goat or something you go "JESUS FORGIVE ME"
@Chad "that's 1/2 of it (the atoning part), but you missed the righteousness part.
How does one become righteous under the old vs the new covenant?
The Christian Taliban is alive and well!
This guy is a bad example of Christianity, for we are not to judge those outside the Church. Most Christians are "again' everthing he said!!
"most Christians are "agin" everything he said"
I don't know if that's true, Leo. I'm not saying it isn't because I don't claim to know, but I would be interested in actually seeing the numbers.
I Corinthian 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
1 Corinthians 13 – The Excellence of Love
13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Dammit Leo, a scripture quote is not an answer – especially not to a question about the demographics of modern people. This robot scripture quoting is so frustrating.
Mandrax, the scriptures are what Christian beliefs are based on, do you not understand that?
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “ If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
My point is simply this if someone claims to be a Christian and doesn't follow the scriptures then I would question them as I would this "Pastor".
@Leo
If you want to go by scripture, then this pastor has that on his side. If you want to measure christianity by the bible scripture, then Fred Phelps should be your ultimate example of a christian. If you think this is wrong, then you disagree with your scripture.
Yes, Leo, I understand that ideally those scriptures are the basis for what Christians believe (although Christians stray widely from that). But the question at hand was whether or not most modern Christians disagree with everything the pastor said. A bible verse cannot answer that.
Hawaii I don't know who Fred is, but the example of Christianity is Jesus, period. The scriptures are clear that by their fruits you will know them, so when someone has rotten fruit you should be able to tell what they really are.
What people seem to think is that Christians are supposed to be so much better than everyone else and that simply is not true. Though we should strive to be an example we all fall short.
@Leo
I'm talking about the bible as a whole. If you want to disregard everything from the Old Testament, then you need to disregard the prophecies that supposedly point to Jesus being the messiah, all the laws in Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, and Even the 10 Commandments. So will you pick and choose what you "want" to follow from the bible?
Hawaii, You focus on the Old Testament because you find fault in the Law, the Judgement of God against evil, etc. Yet you do not understand the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant is Obsolete!!
Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“ Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “ And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “ For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”
13 When He said, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
@Leo
And yet:
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. "
Matthew 5:18
""It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid."
Luke 16:17
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..."
2 Timothy 3:16
"Whoever curses father or mother shall die"
Mark 7:10 In reference to an old testament law.
So how is it that the old testament is invalid?
@HawaiiGuest: "So how is it that the old testament is invalid?"
=>do you understand the difference between the old and new covenants?
Just trying to gauge your understanding some of the basics...
@Chance and Leo
The only thing the new covenant says is instead of attoning by sacrificing a goat or something you go "JESUS FORGIVE ME"
You both want to go scriptually, I provided direct quotes from YOUR bible, and you still ignore the FACT that it says the old testament and laws are NOT invalid?
The Scriptures and Covenants are two different things. You stumble over some old testament scriptures and fail to see the love and hope that God provides through the New Covenant.
You are looking for excuses to not need to follow Jesus Christ because you wrongly claim he does not live up to your standards, yet in reality you don't want standards and want to just do your own thing.
What I have seen with folks like yourself is there is some sin in your life that you refuse to turn away from because it tastes so good you think it can't be bad. I could be wrong...
Hawaii, you are correct that the "old testament and laws are NOT invalid?"
Christains do NOT follow the law for by doing so we reject the New Covenant of Grace.
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the wholelaw and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
@HawaiiGuest "The only thing the new covenant says is instead of attoning by sacrificing a goat or something you go "JESUS FORGIVE ME"
@Chad "that's 1/2 of it (the atoning part), but you missed the righteousness part.
How does one become righteous under the old vs the new covenant?
Also, when did the old covenant end and the new covenant start?
@Leo
Enough with the ad hominem fallacy in assuming that there's some "sin" that I don't want to let go of. Your arrogance in assuming you know anything about my life is astounding. At least you admitted that you could be wrong (and you are very wrong). Why is it that you assume I don't want to give up some imagined "sin" (when I don't even accept the word)?
You are essentially saying that in order to be saved from the law, you ignore the law. That makes absolutely no sense.
@Chad
According to christian theology, the new covenant officially started after Jesus ascended, and lasts for all eternity. The new covenant was merely a substi.tue sacrifice in attoning for "sin", like I said earlier. This does not invalidate Mosaic law, or any of the old testament. Many christians want to wash their hands of people like this pastor, but from a strictly biblical standpoint, he's following what god supposedly wants.
And here you can see clearly 2 christians with differing opinions of what the new covenant is. Chad says attonment and righteousness and leo says grace. So who's right?
@HawaiiGuest "And here you can see clearly 2 christians with differing opinions of what the new covenant is. Chad says attonment and righteousness and leo says grace. So who's right?"
=>both, it's just your unfamiliarity with basic Christianity that is causing you to get confused..
Grace is God's unmerited favor, He extends that to those who believe in His Son.
However
Grace does not do away with the requirements that God has instituted for getting into heaven, and the penalty that must be paid for sinful behavior.
God provided Jesus as the an atoning sacrifice for two reasons:
1) man is incapable of being righteous (adhering to the law)
2) animal sacrifice is an incomplete and temporary atonement for sin.
The old covenant is adhering to the law, animal sacrifice as temporary atonement
The new covenant is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus and imputed righteousness.
Under the old, you "earned" your way in. Under the new you can only get in by faith in the finished work of Christ. You can not add anything to what Christ has already done.
so, what covenant was Jesus preaching under? the old or the new?
@Chad
Stop trying to move the conversation away from the original point, and that is that the old laws (according to the gospel) still apply, and that this pastor that so many christians want to say "he's not a true christian" is following the same bible you use only better. You can try to rationalize and confuse people all you want, but the facts remain the same, and your consant "well what is this and that and this and that" is irrelevant and useless. You are the worst kind of apologetic, the kind that can't answer a simple question.
Hawaii, I agree completely with Chads explanation.
You continue with "but from a strictly biblical standpoint, he's following what god supposedly wants."
Wrong again, for though God will judge all in the end I already showed you the scriptures that teach that we should not judge the world, though you chose to ignore them.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Not wishing for any to perish, yet commands many times for death to be the penalty for a myriad of things. So which do you follow? Leo all I see is rationalizing now following one scripture with another scripture, and that is what causes so many denominations of christianity to pop up, each having a different interpretation and rationlization based on the same book.
Hawaii, If you really want to learn here is a good site that explains the Law, etc.
http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/law-and-gospel
Really? Carm? Been there all it is is standard apologetics. Nothing I haven't seen before. Rationalizations don't convince me of anything.
Poorly reasoned rationalizations I might add.
@HawaiiGuest "Stop trying to move the conversation away from the original point, and that is that the old laws (according to the gospel) still apply"
=>the terms and conditions of the old covenant were in place until the old covenant came to an end (when Jesus died on the cross).
=>the new covenant has a different set of terms and conditions that are different from the old covenant.
since we are now under a new covenant, those terms and conditions apply and the old ones dont. I dont know how to explain it in simpler terms. Your confusion stems from being completely unfamiliar with the bible and the basics of Judeo/Christian beliefs.
@Chad
And what about the quotes I gave above? You want to see them again then just scroll up. Are you telling me that those are wrong? Or that they're lies? How do you distinguish one from the other? For everything you point to to support your position, some other christian points to another thing within the same book to refute it. Your interpretation of what the new covenant entails is just one of thousands, and you have no more evidence that you're right than they do.
and just to reiterate,
The old covenant is adhering to the law, animal sacrifice as temporary atonement
The new covenant is imputed righteousness and the perfect sacrifice of Jesus
under the old, righteousness could be earned by adhering to the law
under the new, righteousness is imputed to us because we have faith in Jesus.
This is the critical, core difference.
Adherence to the law under the Old testament was the way a person could try and be righteous.
Attempting to adhere to the law under the NEW covenant will actually get you a trip on the down elevator because you are trying to earn your way in to heaven. This is precisely why atheist trying to create that scenario is ludicrous, it is completely at odds with the new covenant.
@HawaiiGuest "And what about the quotes I gave above? You want to see them again then just scroll up. Are you telling me that those are wrong? "
=>again, what covenant did Jesus preach under, the old or the new?
answering that question will answer your question
Hawaii, When a Judge sentences a murderer to death, is it the judges fault or the murderers? Does the judge will death?
If God foreknows that a person will never believe, and he uses this person that has no hope as an example to others so that they will not make the same mistake, does he not have that right? Knowing before hand is this right or wrong?
Free will causes problems for man can choose bad or good, or choose to love him or hate him, yet with the foreknowledge that some will love him he created all free to choose their destiny.
@Leo
If god knows what a person will choose beforehand, then there is no free will. Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive concepts.
@Chad
And once again, you don't answer my question. I'll just be ignoring you until you do.
@HawaiiGuest "And once again, you don't answer my question. I'll just be ignoring you until you do."
=>ok, i'll walk you through it
Jesus preached while the old covenant was still in effect.
No one at the time knew what was coming, no one (except Jesus) knew that He was going to die on the cross as an atoning sacrifice.
He was talking to people who knew ONLY the old covenant, and that was the covenant in place at that time.
so, that is precisely when he said "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. " Matthew 5:18
They key part of that is "until all is accomplished"
Jesus came not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. Jesus fulfilled the law, so that it could be done away with.
He kept the law perfectly, the only person in the history of the world to have done so.
Once Jesus fulfilled the law, the law could be done away with and the new covenant put in place.
@Chad
Do you even see what you wrote? He didn't come to do away with the law but in keeping it he did away with it? So he didn't do what he's supposed to?
Who says your interpretation of "until all is accomplished" meaning his death is correct? What about the christian denominations that believe that the OT laws still DO apply? Will they go to hell? Why be opposed to anything then, if believing in jesus is the only criteria?
Your doctrine is merely one of many in the world, so how do you know you're correct?
@HawaiiGuest "Do you even see what you wrote? He didn't come to do away with the law but in keeping it he did away with it? So he didn't do what he's supposed to?"
@Chad "Once the terms of the old covenant were met, it could be set aside in favor of the new. Christianity 101, mission accomplished."
============
@HawaiiGuest "Who says your interpretation of "until all is accomplished" meaning his death is correct? What about the christian denominations that believe that the OT laws still DO apply?
@Chad "what Christian denominations actually believe that? I am not aware of any that have kosher diets, observe the sabbath, etc, etc.."
============
@HawaiiGuest "Will they go to hell? Why be opposed to anything then, if believing in jesus is the only criteria?"
@Chad "not for me to decide, but note:
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3
Your doctrine is merely one of many in the world, so how do you know you're correct?
@Chad
I pointed out a contradiction in what you said, and you really don't see it? Then there's really no point in going any further. Although I do agree that contradictions are Christianity 101.
@HawaiiGuest "I pointed out a contradiction in what you said, and you really don't see it? "
@Chad "I addressed that.. see above and reproduced here:
=====================
@HawaiiGuest "Do you even see what you wrote? He didn't come to do away with the law but in keeping it he did away with it? So he didn't do what he's supposed to?"
@Chad "Once the terms of the old covenant were met, it could be set aside in favor of the new. Christianity 101, mission accomplished."
again, your confusion stems with being completely unfamiliar with the basics of Christianity.
Why atheists are so comfortable authoritatively criticizing that which they know nothing about is completely beyond me..
@Chad
No my confusion is based in that I can actually use critical thinking and logic. Like I said speaking to an apologist is useless, so I'm done, I'm not going to respond to your contradictions anymore.
Welcome to the club, Hawaii Guest. Chad's a bonehead.
It's unfortunate you are unwilling to take the time to learn what every Christian who has ever taken "Christianity 101" courses at their local church has learned, but yet are willing to spend endless hours on this board yelling at people for mistaken reasons..
Since when is a Religion 101 course that's offered by a church recognized by any accredited university, you friggin' moron?
Chad,
Guess what? Muslims take Islam 101 at their mosques too, Hindus study their (3 million?) gods, and Scientologists undertake extensive training classes.
There is no verified evidence for supernatural beings nor for their alleged 'words'.
Commenter
All the evidence in the world could not change Lucifer back to an Angel of light why it work on man? I think you know all the arguments as to why you will not receive any more evidence. The Sanhedrin demanded evidence almost 2,000 ago and just them you will only be given the sign of Jonah.
@fred
Once again, saying things like they are real doesn't make it so. Provide evidence for the supernatural, or there is no reason to believe it exists in the first place.
Chad's a bonehead.
HawiiGuest
-Kurt Godel Undecideability Theorem points to God:
“Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.”
Can I hear an Amen from the Sanhedrin in you?
@HawaiiGuest "Provide evidence for the supernatural"
=>what would you accept as evidence?
Suppose I said "Start walking towards that river, you will walk across it without getting your feet wet"
and
Just before you got there, a landslide up river just happened to occur, block the river, and you walked across dry.
what would you call that?
@HawaiiGuest "Provide evidence for the supernatural"
=>so what would you accept as evidence?
Suppose I said "Start walking towards that river, you will walk across it without getting your feet wet"
and
Just before you got there, a landslide up river just happened to occur, block the river, and you walked across dry.
what would you call that?
dup post, I hate when that happens...
Chad, ALL your posts are duds.
@fred
1st: It's called the Incompletness Theorem, not the Undecidability Theorem.
2nd: It's a mathematical theorem pertaining to philosophical mathematics, not some theological argument for god.
@Chad
The supernatural is either
Something that resides outside of nature (whether or not it can interact with nature is another story) or;
An event that takes place in spite of the natural laws of science. (If something were to completely ignore physics with no descernable cause).
At least as far as I'm concerned.
@HawaiiGuest "Something that resides outside of nature..."
=>so, my example of the river meets that criteria, as only a entity outside our time/space would have been able to know the slide was going to happen and get you started walking on schedule.
right?
@Chad
No it wouldn't. You would first need to find the cause of the slide, then elimate the possibility of any natural causes for it. There is such a thing as chance and coincidence you know.
@Chad
Also, outside time/space would not equal to omniescience. You're skipping a lot of steps in your analogy.
@HawaiiGuest "You would first need to find the cause of the slide, then elimate the possibility of any natural causes for it.
@Chad "cause was entirely natural, a rock which had been there for 10,000 years with its base slowly eroding finally rolled over and triggered it"
=======
@HawaiiGuest "There is such a thing as chance and coincidence you know."
@Chad "ah, yes. The atheist last resort. given enough time, anything can happen 😉
oh that I had such faith!!
HG, why do engage this azzwipe?
@Chad
You know, your response just goes to show you completely miss the entire reason for investigation. But then again, your not interested in actual discussion are you? You seem to be more interested in attempting to make others look bad, maybe to prop yourself up?
@Tom
Because seeing the religious logical fallacies is a fun way to pass the time.
No argument there, HG. Have at it. You'll do nothing less than show the Chard to be a moron.
Glad you have some confidence in me Tom.
@HawaiiGuest "Because seeing the religious logical fallacies is a fun way to pass the time."
=>if you could find a logical fallacy in any of those arguments I would be interested in hearing about it.
You know, it's not like I'm smarter (I'm probably not), or I have more skill at arguing a point (I probably don't). It's just that it's so much easier arguing the side that the data supports.
I have far more faith in you , HG, than I do in the Chard. And apparently, so does Chard!
@Chad
For one, there's the red herring in the whole "coincidence being the last refuge of the atheist" implying that atheists use it to deny evidence of the supernatural, when perfectly natural evidence is right there. Attributing supernatural things to perfectly natural occurances with not only plausible but verifiable hypothesis and tests. Now, if the whole river thing happened more often than could be called mere chance, then it could be concluded that something else might be going on, but that does not give credence to your god. Your skipping a lot of steps in your analogy like I said, which is a logical fallacy but I can't think of the name.
@HawaiiGuest "For one, there's the red herring in the whole "coincidence being the last refuge of the atheist" implying that atheists use it to deny evidence of the supernatural, when perfectly natural evidence is right there. Attributing supernatural things to perfectly natural occurances with not only plausible but verifiable hypothesis and tests."
@Chad "a red herring is probably not what you meant.. as it doesnt apply here.. there are no misleading clues being offered.
A red herring is a clue which is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual issue.
What I saying explicitly is that atheists commonly hide behind "well it could have "just happened" when talking about things such as the origin of the universe, the origin of life on earth, how random genetic mutation and natural selection produced the complexity we see in nature, and so on.
My point with the river being stopped was to say that this is just another example of precisely that. The odds of correctly predicting that occurrence purely "by chance" are of course astronomical."
============
@HawaiiGuest " Now, if the whole river thing happened more often than could be called mere chance, then it could be concluded that something else might be going on"
@Chad "ok, so correctly predicting the occurrence of an event that occurs once every (lets say) 10 million years isnt enough for you.. how many times would I have to do it before you accepted that some supernatural entity was feeding me information?
================
@HawaiiGuest " but that does not give credence to your god."
@Chad "how do you figure? how else would I be getting that information?"
@Chance
Saying the great fallback of atheism being chance would be something else, as it characterizes my stance on the issue as being "typical atheism". In terms of random genetic mutation and speciation, those things have been proven to occur, and are indeed facts about our world. Just because you don't accept them, doesn't mean squat.
From a pure probability standpoint, the chance of you predicting the occurance correctly is 50/50, since the only two outcomes is either it happens or it doesn't.
The timeline of the occurence doesn't matter, an example is Haley's Comet. We can predict when it will come into range to see with the naked eye, but not through any supernatural means, but through math and science.
Even if something supernatural were going on, you would still need to provide evidence that it is YOUR god. This whole thing of either it's atheism or christianity is absurd. If you were getting some supernatural input, how do you know it isn't one of the hundu gods, or a norse god, egyptian, roman/greek. Once any kind of proof of supernatural occurs, you then need to prove that YOUR supernatural claim is correct.
HawiiGuest
Is there any "supernatural' event that you conceive as having occurred?
@HawaiiGuest "From a pure probability standpoint, the chance of you predicting the occurance correctly is 50/50, since the only two outcomes is either it happens or it doesn't."
@Chad " 🙂
er no..
and I mean.. really, really, really, really no..
where to start.. if indeed the odds are 50/50, then if I predict it 100 times, it should occur roughly 50 times, which of course it doesnt. The reason you are off by so much is just a complete misunderstanding of probabilities, there are a virtually infinite number of possible negative scenario's and very small number of positive ones.
=======
@HawaiiGuest "The timeline of the occurence doesn't matter, an example is Haley's Comet. We can predict when it will come into range to see with the naked eye, but not through any supernatural means, but through math and science."
@Chad "no.. again. ... no
Haleys is a predictable event because it's a comet following a orbit in our solar system, a completely different situation than a one time occurrence such as the slide damming up the river.
No offense, but you are really out of your element at this point with the whole probabilities thing... The first rule of holes is that when you are in one, stop digging..
==============
@HawaiiGuest "Even if something supernatural were going on, you would still need to provide evidence that it is YOUR god. This whole thing of either it's atheism or christianity is absurd. If you were getting some supernatural input, how do you know it isn't one of the hundu gods, or a norse god, egyptian, roman/greek. Once any kind of proof of supernatural occurs, you then need to prove that YOUR supernatural claim is correct."
@Chad "true, the first step is to demonstrate the necessity of a force external to our universe, the second step is the identification of that source.
@Chance
How do you know that the landslide is a one-time occurance? Are you saying that at no other point it can occur again? What justification can you give to state that? If it happened in a natural way, then why wouldn't it happen again?
I'm glad you can admit to skipping some steps in your third paragraph.
@fred
As far as I am aware, there has never been an instance of a verified supernatural event ever happening.
@HawaiiGuest "How do you know that the landslide is a one-time occurance?
@Chad " I didnt say it was 😉
what I said was that "there are a virtually infinite number of possible negative scenario's and very small number of positive ones."
ok, here you go. This is how to calculate the odds of correctly predicting a rock slide that blocks the river:
1. lets say that over the last 10million years, there have been 100 rock slides that blocked the river (I think you'll agree that's being very generous).
2. Let us also say that if a person correctly guesses the rock slide to within 10 minutes of it happening, that is a successful prediction.
3. The odds therefor of successfully predicting a rock slide over the past 10million years are exactly:
probability = (chance of something happening)/(total chances)
numerator: 10min x 100 times = 1,000minutes over the past 10 million years
denominator: 10million x 365days x 24hours x 60 minutes = 5,256,000,000,000
so
the odds that you just managed to get it right, and predict a river blocking land slide is 1 in 5,256,000,000 (1 in 5.2 trillion)
how do you like those odds?
The odds of winning the lottery are vastly better.. about 1 in 176 million
@Chad
I don't know a whole lot about calculating probability to that degree, so I don't even know if your using a standard formula, and would need to research or talk to a mathmetician about that. Now, let's say for the sake of argument, that a person was able to predict that event within 10 minutes. I will admit that that is impressive, but in no way conclusive of supernatural intervention or information. More of these predictions with the same unlikely outcome would eliminate chance or coincidence, but not just that one. Sorry but saying that one prediction is proof of anything is not scientific. We need repeatability to determine the validity of any hypothesis. Also in terms of predicting a future event, specifics are definitely needed, as it eliminates the whole interpretation thing. Have you wondered why many people predict the end of the world all the time using mostly the same sources? It's because va.gue wording leaves room for error on the predictors part, and the more va.gue, the more often it can be applied to a wide range of situations. More often than not with these kinds of va.gue wordings, the people reading it specifically look for things that MIGHT fit in it.
@HawaiiGuest "Now, let's say for the sake of argument, that a person was able to predict that event within 10 minutes. I will admit that that is impressive, but in no way conclusive of supernatural intervention or information"
@Chad "ok, fine, how about 2 times in a row?"
that would lengthen the odds to 1 in 27,625,536,000,000,000,000,000,000
would you accept that as evidence of the supernatural?
@Chad
If you actually finish reading my post, as there are other factors as well.
Think I hit everything, right?
"More of these predictions with the same unlikely outcome would eliminate chance or coincidence, but not just that one."
=>check, doing it twice..
"We need repeatability to determine the validity of any hypothesis"
=> check, doing it twice..
"Also in terms of predicting a future event, specifics are definitely needed, as it eliminates the whole interpretation thing. "
=>no way to misinterpret here, right? Either the water stops twice or it doesnt, right 😉
"Have you wondered why many people predict the end of the world all the time using mostly the same sources? It's because va.gue wording leaves room for error on the predictors part, and the more va.gue, the more often it can be applied to a wide range of situations. More often than not with these kinds of va.gue wordings, the people reading it specifically look for things that MIGHT fit in it."
=>no vague wording here right? "Water Stops", that's pretty clear
so, does accurately predicting it twice meet the criteria or not?
@Chad
The specifics I'm talking about is "The water will stop on this day within this 10 minute span. There will be no determinate reason for it, and further investigation will yield nothing." Twice, maybe, who knows, I'd rather leave that up to researchers wouldn't you? People who know physics and all those other things much more in depth than either of us.
For me personally, twice doesn't really do it. Something like maybe 5-7 times within a two week span in places the person has never been before maybe? If the predictions were made at the same time and all he saw were pictures of the individual place would add some credence as well as keeping those places completely isolated to any kind of interference. Weather might also play a factor, since it could be avenue to explore as a possible natural cause. There's a lot of factors to take into account, and since I'm not a scientist, all I can give you is my thoughts on what they could be.
ok, so we have your answer. A correct prediction 7 times, which has odds of
1 in 110 812 179 249 206 361 310 887 936 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
Ok, so you just pick out the number in my post, and run with that pretending that's the whole post. Good job, don't try to dishonestly make my post sound like just a simple number.
I am amazed at the responces I am reading here. It is no wonder this world is in the condition it is. I am disgusted with the kind of hate speech being vomited from that particular pulpit. As well as the kind of mentality he is generating among his congregation. That. In now way reflects the way Jesus wanted his people to act. Nowhere in the bible do I see Jesus displaying overt hate or a segregation mindset. He hung out with the lowlifes and despised people of that time! He came to fulfill the law! Why? Because we couldn't. He instructed us to Love each other(requires tolerance) and to forgive others. Basically be KIND and LOVING. GOD is the ONLY judge. He sees into the hearts of men (I.e.the motivation behind the action). And his thoughts and his ways ARE NOT OURS. So. Even though Jesus removed the burden of trying to be perfect thru the Letter of the Law. And as I understand it asked us to be loving and kind in all things we do. WE still can't get it right, can we?
Matthew 7
12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Yep, and they would nail him to a tree again if he came back preaching that stuff. I doubt the fundies would even recognize him.
you started off good, then lapsed off into fairy tale land...
Yes the world probably would, but I would recommend you read what Jesus taught for his words and teachings would bring hope to you!!