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May 28th, 2012
05:36 PM ET
Conservative leader agrees to visit home of married gay couple for first timeBy Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor (CNN) - A conservative Christian leader who opposes same-sex marriage has agreed to the idea of dining at the home of a married gay couple, after saying he had never done so in an interview with CNN. Tony Perkins, who heads the Family Research Council in Washington, received the invitation after telling CNN’s Brooke Baldwin on Thursday that he’d never been to the home of a married same-sex couple. "My wife and I will be glad to respond when we receive the invitation to find a time that works," Perkins said in a statement to CNN on Monday, referring to the invitation. The Family Research Council has helped lead a national movement to ban same-sex marriage, helping pass anti-same-sex marriage laws in dozens of states. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories The invitation to Perkins came from Jennifer Chrisler, the executive director of a gay rights group called Family Equality Council. Chrisler and her wife have twin 10-year-old boys, with another child on the way. “I would like to extend an open invitation for you and your family to visit my home and have dinner with my spouse and children with the full hope that you will witness the love that exists in our families,” Chrisler wrote in her invitation, which was sent to the Family Research Council by certified mail on Friday, according to a spokesman with Family Equality Council. My Take: Why some Christians focus on homosexuality “While I recognize it may not change your mind, I hope that it might soften your heart,” Chrisler said in her invitation, which was sent to news media. “As Christians, I think we can both agree that ours is not to judge and that we must live by the golden rule.” In an interview with Baldwin on Monday, Chrisler said she was surprised that Perkins accepted her invitation. She said she had been inspired to send it after seeing President Barack Obama announce his personal support for same-sex marriage earlier this month. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter She noted that Obama and Vice President Joe Biden said that getting to know same-sex couples who are raising kids played a big role in their decisions to support same-sex marriage. “I tell my 10-year-olds, if you’re having problems with somebody, if you don’t understand them and they don’t understand you, talking to each other is the first step,” Chrisler said Monday. Watch CNN Newsroom weekdays 9am to 3pm ET and weekends. For the latest from the CNN Newsroom click here.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I have to say I have been following the thread here and I am utterly shocked at the absolutely vile and rude comments directed towards the Christians posting. It's remarkable to me that non-believers are reduced to insults and threats rather than engage in a civil conversation. The very best they seem to be able to argue is "We don't accept your beliefs so therefore you are a (insert vindictive of choice). How in heaven's name (or on earth I suppose) can you espouse such vitriol and then claim you are the rational intelligent ones?
Then obviously you have not read any of the christian comments because they constantly tell non-believers how we will burn for all of eternity. They speak using a book that was written 2000 years ago and spew hatred towards people who do not agree with them or towards people who are gay. They get what they give and if they can't handle facts that are based in the 21st century, it is their problem not ours. The world will not cease moving forward to appease them. They need to realize that the sooner they join the 21st century, the better off this world will be.
There are few things more hate-filled than believing the vast majority of the human race that disagrees with you will burn in a fiery pit for all eternity.
I am infinitely more kind, just, moral, and generous than your god.
Bill, I don't think the hatefullness is confined to non-beleivers. It seems to be epidemic in the country now, no doubt due in part to bulliten boards like this, that people can't simply say, I disagree with you and see things this way. Rather, it always falls to stereotyping and name calling. Sad...but it's what gets headlines, and worse yet, the directions the so called leadership of both sides take.
@TruthPrevails "Then obviously you have not read any of the christian comments because they constantly tell non-believers how we will burn for all of eternity"
@chubby rain "There are few things more hate-filled than believing the vast majority of the human race that disagrees with you will burn in a fiery pit for all eternity."
=>can someone explain to me why it is "hate filled" to warn others of the situation they are in, and the ultimate result of it if they continue that path?
Wouldnt warning someone that wasnt aware of the danger they are in really be considered an act of love?
TurthPrevials
“They speak using a book that was written 2000 years ago”
=>and you spout words of the Greeks and Babylonians written 2,000 years ago. We don’t just make up our beliefs. You have a believe that is not based on anything new so it is not age of the writing that is the issue for you.
Spew hatred towards people who do not agree with them or towards people who are gay”
=>the Bible makes certain statements towards hom-o$exual acts or behavior not hate speech against any one group.
“ they can't handle facts that are based in the 21st century”
=>sorry now who is paining others with the stupid brush
“ it is their problem not ours”
=>no, problem is neither side is capable of hearing the truth as there is only one truth.
“ The world will not cease moving forward to appease them”
=>sorry, again we face the same pitfalls man has faced since Adam and Eve
“ the sooner they join the 21st century, the better off this world will be”
=>you have no basis for such a statement as the world has never been godless in 6,000 years. You have no idea what the world would be like. This is the non believers fantasy or delusion that somehow a godless world is a better world. Believers know it is God who has restrained evil and non believers have a history of the goodness of God. If the non believer is correct then we have at a minimum existed under the delusion of God and goodness and benefited from the effect.
fred, your assumptions are not really supported by any more fact than those who dispute you. I will add this to your statement that world hasn't been godless for 6,000 years. Whether that is true or not, the majority of the worlds population has not accepted your so called truths. They follow other, though similiar spirtual beliefs. So for the majority of teh word, it has been godless, considering your definition is based on the acceptance of the judeo christian god.
All said and done, this isn't a religious debate at all. It is a political debate in a secular nation. If you don't like same gender relationships, don't enter in to one. And if you want to pray for those that do, by all means please do. But why is there a need to do anything more?
@anothermuse, if you want to enter into a same sex relationship, don't ask me to sanction it.
Chad wrote, "can someone explain to me why it is "hate filled" to warn others of the situation they are in, and the ultimate result of it if they continue that path?
Wouldnt warning someone that wasnt aware of the danger they are in really be considered an act of love?"
Because you cretins are wrong. Being born gay is no more immoral than being born left-handed.
And because you ignorant fundiots cretins seek to legislate discrimination against gay folks because your mythical sky daddy wants you to think gays are icky.
@truth prevails – So you're using the old "He started it" argument. Very effective.
@chubby rain Hey we don't run the universe, we are just telling you what has been witnessed to us. You might like to run the universe differently but then, you don't have a universe
@TruthPrevails "obviously you have not read any of the christian comments because they constantly tell non-believers how we will burn for all of eternity"
@chubby rain "There are few things more hate-filled than believing the vast majority of the human race that disagrees with you will burn in a fiery pit for all eternity."
@Chad "can someone explain to me why it is "hate filled" to warn others of the situation they are in, and the ultimate result of it if they continue that path? Wouldnt warning someone that wasnt aware of the danger they are in really be considered an act of love?
@Primewonk "Because you cretins are wrong. Being born gay is no more immoral than being born left-handed."
@Chad "think you missed the question.. If you read the post, it had to do with eternity separated from God, not anything to do with gays.. right?
============
@Primewonk "And because you ignorant fundiots cretins seek to legislate discrimination against gay folks"
@Chad "how exactly is not wanting the existing definition of marriage changed a form of discrimination??
Chad wrote, " how exactly is not wanting the existing definition of marriage changed a form of discrimination??"
Point 1 – You nutters do not own the term marriage.
Point 2 – Marriage is a civil contract, not a religious contract.
Point 3 – The 14th Amendment says you cannot withold rights or equal protection from one group of US citizens without a cler and compelling reason. Claiming your mythical invisible magical skydaddy wants you to thinks gays are icky, is not a clear and compelling reason for witholding equal rights.
Anothermuse
There is only one God and throughout history man has worshiped or believed in that which their culture has out as being the creator or source beyond that which can be known. Man including the Hebrews could not ever expect to get their mind around the fullness of God. God is God and simply because there are many views of God does not change the nature of God but does affect the culture. Cultures that see something greater than self and views accountability outside of the existence we know behaves differently than a godless people.
Christians have a responsibility within their community of believers to hold believers accountable to be Holy before God. The Bible is our main source of what a Holy God demands.
Outside of their own community Christians have a responsibility to conduct their lives as a light onto the world. This light is to reflect love of God which trickles down in love for their neighbor and all that is around them. This love is never to be such that we ignore an injustice or anything that would hurt an innocent child. Divorce is wrong as is two gays raising a child. This is not the way and goes against God. No one knows the long term affect on children of gays but, we do know the devastating impact divorce has had on children and family structure. Studies on children raised in gay homes cannot and do not give any results that can show beneficial effects. A child needs to see a proper model of male and female relationships unfold. The child can have any orientation but, role models cannot be replaced with young children without impact.
Media impacts children and has had devistating effects. What adults do matters.
" There is only one God and throughout history man has worshiped or believed in that which their culture has out as being the creator or source beyond that which can be known."
This, of course is bull. Humans have invented tens of thousands of gods. You version, cobbled together from other minor deities, is no more, or no less special or real than any of the others. Additionally, thousands of these invented gods claim being "the creator".
@Primewonk "Point 1 – You nutters do not own the term marriage."
@Chad "so, you are claiming that only Christians oppose changing the definition of marriage?
@Primewonk "Point 2 – Marriage is a civil contract, not a religious contract."
@Chad "are not Christians also citizens? Do Christians not have the right to lobby the government?
@Primewonk "Point 3 – The 14th Amendment says you cannot withold rights or equal protection from one group of US citizens without a cler and compelling reason."
@Chad "how exactly does opposing redefining marriage abrogate the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment??
@ Chad – 99% of the ignorant cretins opposing equal rights are religious idiots.
Why would Christians want to put a god into our civil laws?
Marriage has been redefined as long as there has been marriage – which precedes your cobbled together deity. What balls you have to think that you and the other cretins have the right to fix a definition that is static.
Primewonk
It is what it is but not bull. You may choose not to believe which is your choice but, you cannot deny that since recorded history man has looked up and worshiped something outside themselves. It is just a fact not something you can just wave a wand at to make it go away. As individual Christians each has a view of God based on many things that come into ones life. You have a view of God even though you do not know God. Your view is well outside the spectrum of a normal view but, you do have one. God has impacted your life real or delusional.
@fred
So now you use an appeal to authority? By that same logic did the earth begin orbiting the sun instead of being the center of the universe once enough people believed it?
I meant to write appeal to popularity.
go fuck yourself Bill!
HawiiGuest
Ad Populum would not apply because I was making a case that the majority of mankind believed in a higher power over the course of history. You cannot dispute this fact unless you wish to change the written history of man. If I said most people believe 1+1=2 would you scream out Appeal to Popularity ! Appeal to Popularity!
@fred
I don't see what difference that most societies in history had a religious system in place would make. The only reason to say something like that is to infer that it gives credence to the supernatural.
@Primewonk "99% of the ignorant cretins opposing equal rights are religious idiots."
@Chad "source? Or did you just make that up 😉 "
@Primewonk "Why would Christians want to put a god into our civil laws?"
@Chad "hmm.. you are claiming that Christians (and anyone else opposing redefining marriage) doesnt have the right to lobby?
@Primewonk "Marriage has been redefined as long as there has been marriage
@Chad " no it hasn't.. what data supports that claim?
@Chad
What secular reason would there be to oppose gay marriage. Point out a person opposed to it whose arguments are based purely on secularism.
HawiiGuest
It is delusional for a non believer to claim the world would be better without God because we only know a history that includes the effect of God (does matter if God exists or not the effect is present). We do not know a world without God today and we will not know a world without God for some time to come. As I said to Primewonk it is want it is but bull it’s not.
"It is delusional for a non believer to claim the world would be better without God because we only know a history that includes the effect of God (does matter if God exists or not the effect is present)"
That's not true at all. Religious people find it very annoying that people don't need God to be good, as science has now incontestably proved.
For millennia, we've been brainwashed into believing that we needed the Almighty to redeem us from an essentially corrupt nature. Left to our own devices, people would quickly devolve into beasts, more violent, tactless, aggressive, and selfish, than we already are.
Today, we know that this isn't true. With the discovery of mirror neurons by Italian neuroscientist Giaccomo Rizzolatti in the 1990s, we now have physiological proof of why - and how - our species became hard-wired for goodness. Mirror neurons are miraculous cells in the brain whose sole purpose is to harmonize us with our environments. By reflecting the outside world inward, we actually become each other - a little bit; neurologically changed by what is happening around us. Mirror neurons are the reason that we have empathy and can feel each other's pain. It is because of mirror neurons that you blush when you see someone else humiliated, flinch when someone else is struck, and can't resist the urge to laugh when seeing a group struck with the giggles. (Indeed, people who test for "contagious yawning" tend to be more empathic.) These tiny mirrors are the key to most things noble and good inside us.
It is through mirror neurons - not God - that we redeem ourselves, achieve salvation, and are "reborn" in virtuous ways once co-opted by religions. Evolution knew what she was doing. A group of successful cooperators has a much higher chance of thriving than a population of selfish liars. In spite of what we read in the headlines, the ratio of bad to good deeds done on any given day across our planet holds at close to zero any day of the year. Although we are ethical works-in-progress, the vast majority of us are naturally positive creatures - meaning not harmful to our environments - most of the time in most of the ways that matter. And God has nothing to do with it.
Spirituality does but God doesn't. Evolutionary psychologists tell us that our brains are hard-wired with a five-toned moral organ that focuses on a quintet of ethical values - one of which is purity, or sacredness. In a world that can sometimes be disgusting, we evolved an upper tier of emotional longing - the aspiration for purity - to keep us balanced in this satyricon of carnal delights (where animality beckons and frequently wins). Our need for sacredness is part of our ancient survival apparatus, and manifests in what we call faith, the need to connect with that sacred dimension. This has been the primary purpose of religion, of course - to congregate people for the Greater Good - but God has been, in fact, the divine carrot. The important part was communion, a context in which to transcend ourselves, if only for an hour on Sundays. Without this ability "to turn off the Me and turn on the We," moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt tells us, our species would still be wandering around as groups of nomads, unable to create a civilization.
Aside from mirror neurons, there's oxytocin, the molecule of connection (also known as the molecule of love). It's fascinating to learn that the vagus nerve produces more oxytocin when we witness virtuous behavior in others that makes us want to be better people ourselves. We are wired by nature to be elevated at the sight of other people's goodness, mirror neurons and oxytocin conspiring to improve the species. Miraculous though it is, this natural human phenomenon has nothing to do with theology.
@HawaiiGuest "What secular reason would there be to oppose gay marriage. Point out a person opposed to it whose arguments are based purely on secularism."
=>http://news.change.org/stories/atheists-against-gay-marriage
@fred
Your "arguments" are getting more and more incoherent. What your talking about is that we don't know what a world without YOUR god is like, and that's a complete lie, since the very concept of "world" has changed drastically from ancient times. We have writings and histories from isolated areas removed from abrahamic religions. Look at the Native Americans. Before settlement, north america was their world, and they didn't have contact with YOUR religion. We can also only reliably trace jewish history (as far as we know the first group to believe in the same god that you do) to about 1500 B.C.E.
@Chad
So you point to an Australian Prime Minister who doesn't even really give a reason for her opposition to same se.x marriage, but also makes herself look like a hypocritical, double standard using idiot? I suppose you could make the argument that politics is a secular reason, but that depends on whether the backlash would be the result of religious intolerance.
HawiiGuest
Even the Neanderthal are thought to have worshiped some god. When I say God I am speaking about my God which is the God of Abraham. Simply because the Neanderthal saw God different than the Greeks or the American Indian does not change the nature of God. You see the God of Abraham through a very twisted lens in a clearly abnormal way (say outside 2 standard deviations from the norm) but you still maintain a view of God. Just like you man has attempted to describe God then end up putting a bunch of religion around the God they see. If it helps you out or makes you feel better we can say man has had a belief in the Hebrew God, Muslim gods, the unknown god, god, supernatural animals , etc. throughout known history. All these beliefs point to something greater than man which is God. Now, can we conclude man has not known a godless existence and hang 10?
The question no one ever answers: Dont Christians have the right to lobby their representative government to enact laws, or prevent the inaction of laws?
@fred
So now your asserting that they all just worshipped YOUR god but didn't know it? Talk about "god of the gaps". When you can actually use some kind of logic, then try again.
@Chad
If those laws are based in their religion, then no they do not, since any law enacted from religious grounds is unconsti.tutional and marginalizes the rights of those who are not of your religion.
@Chad "Dont Christians have the right to lobby their representative government to enact laws, or prevent the inaction of laws?"
@HawaiiGuest "If those laws are based in their religion, then no they do not, since any law enacted from religious grounds is unconsti.tutional and marginalizes the rights of those who are not of your religion.
=>hmm, ok then.. murder, stealing, we need to make those lawful then?
what precisely are you using to categorize "laws based on religion" ?
@Chad
The whole "we should make murder legal then" thing is a played out pile of crap that attempts to give the impression of either A) This nation was founded on christianity or B) There are no morals without YOUR god and YOUR book of immorality to tell people what to do. Which are you saying so that I can rip that pathetic argument apart.
Your dishonesty shows in every conversation you get in Chad, just like the last one we had.
and..
1. "anything that we atheists/liberals want which conservative Christians oppose" isnt an answer
2. sorry, you dont get to deny any group the right to lobby their representative government based on their moral position.. Should you prefer that style of government, you should consider moving to China or North Korea..
😉
@Chad
Here's a simple test
1. What's the law
2. Why do you believe that this is a moral imperative?
2a. If it's for religious reasons, then to damn bad it's unconsti.tutional.
2b. If it's for non-religious reasons, or able to be shown as unethical or immoral from a non-religious standpoint, then it can be discussed or refined.
as well, if there is any "dishonesty" here, it's among those people that attempt to construe any moral position they disagree with as "imposing religion".
utter nonsense...
Christians have made many things legal based on the bible. Slavery, denying women the vote – perfectly acceptable using religion.
To say that you need religion to make laws is ridiculous. Do I want to be murdered (or any of my friends or family)? Nope. Do I want people to steal from me? Nope. See how easy that is! My three year old understands it!
Does gay marriage affect me or my marriage adversely (or anyone elses)? Nope! So why is it illegal?
@Chad
you are right, everyone has the right to pet.ition their representative in government to enact laws based on their own morals, that's why America is great. However, I think you and I can both get behind say, a muslim group peti.tioning the government to get right with allah and enact sharia law, or on a smaller scale, if a jewish group gained enough steam to make the country kosher, outlawing cheeseburgers, pepperoni pizza, shrimp, etc...
The reason why the founders were so visionary is that they tried to keep religion, all religion, out of government so that people can't force another group to follow their own code.
@Chad
I find any position that stands on purely religious grounds to be imposing religion, SUCH A RAIDCAL IDEA. If someone says "gay marriage should be illegal because god said so", then that is imposing religion you idiot
Hey Bill,
Until somebody starts passing laws telling you who you can love,
You have nothing to beech about.
You get what you give.
Isnt "that" supposed to be a "christian" thing ?
When i get attacked, i defend myself.
When you keep on attacking, i attack back.
An eye for an eye.
You christians have told me that i am perverted, sick, abnormal, and i am going to hell.
How "Jesus" like of you.
Actually, you have "judged" me.
Now who is going to hell.
Take the book with you.
Sad but True
I think the founders simply did not want the Government to force any particular religion down our throats or walk in lock step as the Church did with Government powers of England. It is religious freedom not freedom from religion.
fred
Sad but True
I think the founders simply did not want the Government to force any particular religion down our throats or walk in lock step as the Church did with Government powers of England. It is religious freedom not freedom from religion.
-------–
If they did not want to force any particular religion down our throats....then it is freedom from any particular religion. Jesus or Allah have no bearing in the operation of our government or rights. Some of the Founding Fathers were Christian..this does not mean we adopt biblical law.
@Sad but True "you are right, everyone has the right to pet.ition their representative in government to enact laws based on their own morals, that's why America is great."
=>exactly
and, no, I wouldnt attempt to construe a Muslim group lobbying the US government to enact Sharia law, or a Jewish group lobbying for required kosher restrictions as somehow violating the establishment clause and therefor illegal activity that can be constrained. That of course would be absurd.
As much as Mr. HawaiiGuest grates at the idea, EVERYONE gets to voice their opinion. EVERYONE.
@Chad
I'm glad we can agree, one thing I will point out though is that although both you and I can see the absurdity and the ridiculousness of a muslim or jewish group trying to impose their own rules on society at large and aren't even taken seriously, and yet we differ when it comes to a christian group trying to do the exact same thing?
@Sad but True "I'm glad we can agree, one thing I will point out though is that although both you and I can see the absurdity and the ridiculousness of a muslim or jewish group trying to impose their own rules on society at large and aren't even taken seriously, and yet we differ when it comes to a christian group trying to do the exact same thing?"
=>I think you need to re-read my post 😉
I dont find it at all absurd that a muslim or jewish group would attempt to lobby for what they felt was correct and moral.
go right ahead, I support their right to do so (unlike you).
I enjoy living in the US. If you want to restrict what people can lobby for, move to China/North Korea.
Jen
“Does gay marriage affect me or my marriage adversely (or anyone elses)? Nope! So why is it illegal?”
Marriage in the U.S. 50 years ago and various secular benefits (pensions social security etc) are based on the Judeo Christian model of marriage where the little woman stayed home cared for the family and home while Big daddy brought home the bacon. In those days as in the days of Jesus two men getting married would not even be considered.
When you pull out the foundation of this country (Judeo Christian) you leave a void. Ok, so even gay marriage will have limits on some forms of gay marriage, polygamy etc. there will be laws based upon something.
Gay marriage will affect you:
-3.9 billion dollars additional cost to taxpayers to fund citizenship for gays marrying gays to become U.S. citizens.
-480 million dollars additional annual payments in Social Security and Disability benefits.
-Annual pension and retirement cost 2.3 billion dollars
-unknown impact on children raised without male and female relationship models.
-increased bi$exual experimentation .
-unknown cost to society and medical consequences of increaded $exual experimentation.
@Chad
Looks like we're having reading comprehension all around then huh? I absolutely support just about anyones RIGHT to do what they want, but I don't have to respect or support the ideas that they want. I find it absurd and ridiculous for a jewish group to try and lobby for a completely kosher america. They have the right, which we agree on whether you want to put words in my mouth or not, and yet for some reason I'm the only one that finds it absurd that they would even do it in the first place?
Just because you have the right to do something as outlined in a const.itution does not mean you have to exercise that right, especially when it puts undo stress on another group of people for no apparent reason.
Just want to also point out to, if you want to have a civil conversation, try and stay away from telling me what I believe and put words in my mouth.
fred I am not sure where you are getting some of that stuff from. First of all polygamy is not a form of hom0s3xuality. Where are you getting the 3.9 billion dollars for gays to marry gays to become US citizens? Also you said it would increase s3xual experimentation, when more likely it will be the other way around. More likely if there are more committed relationships there will be less experimentation.
Is "experimentation" against the law? What does experimentation in one's life have to to do with another???????????
ok, my fault. the way you phrased it confused me..
@Sad but True " I find it absurd and ridiculous for a jewish group to try and lobby for a completely kosher america."
@Chad "it isnt the act of lobbying that you disagree with, right? It's what they are lobbying for that you (and I) object to..
@Sad but True "They have the right, which we agree on whether you want to put words in my mouth or not, and yet for some reason I'm the only one that finds it absurd that they would even do it in the first place?"
@Chad "I dont find it absurd that they would want to do it, it's a normal reaction to a strongly held belief. I disagree with the belief, but I dont find it absurd that they would want to"
@Sad but True "Just because you have the right to do something as outlined in a const.itution does not mean you have to exercise that right, especially when it puts undo stress on another group of people for no apparent reason.
@Chad "this is where you are straying way to close to articulating a rule for what people can and cant lobby for. That is wrong. "undue stress"?? who defines that? "no apparent reason" well, not according to you, but they obviously have apparent reasons..
J.W
If you allow gay marriage you give full approval to the family structure. The most influential person in a child’s life is the parent. We also know two men or two women cannot model proper male /female relationships. Do as I say not as I do never has and never will work. Statistics show that children in gay relationship homes are 16% more likely to experiment bi$exually. Normalizing what feels good or alternative $exual acts creates an atmosphere for greater experimentation.
An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 gays with AIDS would marry U.S. citizens in order to get treatment in this country. The current cost to treat AIDS is $648,000 per AIDS patient.
@Chad
We agree, everyone has the right.
You really don't find it absurd that that a jewish group could try to lobby for an entire kosher america? It is, it's completely ridiculous, why would I respect a belief that at the end of the day cuts out a lot of food for a lot of people. I mean, lets ignore the belief itself, but that industry that it affects. Farming, fishing, and so on. I know you might be trying to be "PC" but honestly, you don't find it the least bit ridiculous?
Lastly, fine, I can see why you would get a little worried when I would want people to not use a right, but I'm not lobbying or trying to stop people from having their rights, what I want is for people to get brains an understanding that having a right doesn't mean you need to use it. Does it make sense to own a gun if you don't have proper training or gun maintenance? You have the right and yet the amount of danger involved is so ridiculously high that excercising this right has been a literal death sentence for many people.
@Sad but True "You really don't find it absurd that that a jewish group could try to lobby for an entire kosher america? "
@Chad "not at all, if they believed that by doing so God would bless the US, how can you fault them for that?"
Chard, you're an idiot.
@Chad
Voice it all you want, but don't expect religious ideas to be enacted into law. That is a clear violation of the establishment clause.
Hawii Guest
Take a look at our Social Security laws they are based upon a 70 year old Judeo Christian model where the little wife stays home here whole life tending the kids and home while Bid Daddy brings home the bacon. That is just one example. As I said you may hate God but you cannot escape His grasp
@HawaiiGuest "Voice it all you want, but don't expect religious ideas to be enacted into law"
=>You mean like
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
like that?
@fred
You think the man being the provider is exclusive to christianity (the use of judeo-christian is hilarious to me, seeing as the christians treated the jewish like crap until after WW2)? You really need to get out more. And I'm also pretty sure that laws based on that idea is kind of insulting to women.
Specifically what laws are you basing your assertion on?
@Chad
Ok so first off, lying is not a crime, unless it is perjury in a court of law.
Second, killing can be justified as immoral outside of religion, and so can stealing. You really can't hold together a very honest argument can you?
@HawaiiGuest "Second, killing can be justified as immoral outside of religion, and so can stealing. You really can't hold together a very honest argument can you?"
=>ahh.. so now we see it.
It isnt "religion" at all that is the issue, it is certain aspects of the God of Abraham's morality that you hate.
As long as you're ok with a particular part (like murder), then it's fine to have that as a law.
If you object to a part (such as not wanting to sanction gay marriage), then all of a sudden it's "Keep Religion Out Of Our Lives!!"
violation of the establishment clause my foot.. 😉
@Chad
Wow you don't even pretend to defend your "arguments" as anything other than misrepresentation, dishonesty, and downright idiocy. Can you not grasp the simple concept of secular laws? Are you so brainwashed that you cannot even grasp that some people don't even accept your bible as a moral guide, let alone the supposed existence of your god?
Tell you what Chad, when you can actually be somewhat honest about your position or the position of others, then maybe people might take you seriously. As of right now, there is no reason to think that what you type is anything other than dishonest bullsh.it designed to give you a self-righteous hard on.
Chard is an idiot. Fred is his second in command.
As always I'm deeply indebted to atheists for triggering some investigation on my part.
That phrase "secular law" turns out to have real meaning and subsequent (enormously negative) implications..
Wonderful reading, please see : http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/28/conservative-leader-agrees-to-visit-home-of-married-gay-couple-for-first-time/comment-page-7/#comment-1350249
"Investigation" on your part? The only "investigating" you do is sticking your finger up your nose, Chad. What you post here is nothing more than masturbation.
Hawii Guest
The Social Security spousal benefit where it is estimated that 40 percent of women will continue to receive benefits based on their husband's earnings.
The 1939 amendment to Social Security became a family-based program rather than an individual-based one
@fred
And yet if the woman actually earns their own income above a certain point, then they do not gain those benefits. Are you also saying, with the 1939 amendment, that same se.x couples who say adopt or other artificial means to have a biological child (at least to one of the parents) does not count as a family? Strangely enough your point in citing those 2 parts of social security isn't clear.
@Chad
I went to your little link, and I'm also wondering where your little cut and paste came from. Also, cherry picking John Adams can work both ways. Here's some for you.
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabu.se themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and supersti.tion, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
- John Adams, "A Defence of the Consti.tutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"
As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
There's many many more quotes from John Adams on the separation issue, but then again you'll probably cherry pick something minute and go with that and attempt to trick yourself into thinking you've won some part of this.
Hawii Guest
No, it is the correct thing to do. The traditional family no longer exists as in 1939. I say marriage has been redefined and now we redefine it some more. It is past the time to update the entire Social Security code.
@fred
Your point still isn't clear. What do you want to update in the SS code? We obviously know what you mean by "traditional" family. And what does any of this have to do with LGBT rights?
Hawii Guest
In short the SS system did not consider the radical change where the economy went from 1 bread winner to two, the decline in marriage rates and now gay marriage. My point is that gay marriage does not fit the intent of the old law based on traditional American family. A move past civil union into marriage requires other changes in society.
@fred
So what exactly is your point? Other changes need to be made, and so what? It doesn't really matter what needs to change, all that matters is that the LGBT community should have equal rights.
So if you have two men and two women. The two men marry and the two women marry. How are the taxes and social security benefits going to cost more for them than it would if they married the ones of the opposite se.x?
J.W
Two men and two women live together and each only receive Social Security Benefits and Medicare based on each individuals earnings. If gay marriage is allowed then two of them now qualify as spouse and can receive 50% of the others earned amount or in the case of death or disability 100% of the spouse benefits. It is possible for one worker to generate spousal benefits for up to five of his/her spouses that he/she may have.
Now do you think for a minute there is one fool up on the hill that would dare suggest we should get rid of this benefit put in place 70 years ago ? Worse yet should some fool on the hill suggest we do it because the Traditional American Family which this benefit was based on is dead both the LGBT and Christian mobs would stone him or her on the spot.
@HawaiiGuest "I went to your little link, and I'm also wondering where your little cut and paste came from"
see:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/28/conservative-leader-agrees-to-visit-home-of-married-gay-couple-for-first-time/comment-page-7/#comment-1352821
Fred my point was that they would not get any more benefits than a straight couple, so how would it cost more money?
J.W
If only 10% get married you are speaking about additional benefits for 600,000 people that are not available today. These benefits were never intended for same $ex couples or two sisters or two brothers or what ever new combination becomes the next civil issue. Tell me how do we not take away Civil Rights from two gays but not two cusins or sisters or father step-daughter etc.?
This guy visits the home of a gay person everytime he visits one of his pedophile bishops.
Yes there can be love with ho mo se uals, but it is the wrong type of love.
The experts around the world disagree with you.
@yeah: Won't be the first time experts have been wrong and won't be the last. You FAILED.
WOW is one of those ignorant fundiots who keeps claiming the experts are wrong (in a variety of scientific fields). Yet WOW, like the other ignorant fundiots, refuses to post the scientific evidence that shows the exxperts aree wrong.
I wonder why they do this?
Experts also tend to be proven right and they have produced the computer you are taking advantage of right now. Religions never seem to be proven right, only wrong - the age and creation of the universe, the earth orbiting the sun, etc. and they have impeded process, not accelerated it.
Yes there can be live with ho mo se uals, but it is the wrong type of love.
"Yes there can be live with ho mo se uals, but it is the wrong type of love."
Based on this stupid comment you have no clue what love really is suppose to be about.
Why do you get to decide for me what is "right" and what is "wrong"? Last time I checked both my wife and I were legal adults. Though I do not believe in your he!!fire and brimstone, if I did, wouldn't it be MY CHOICE to jump on in? Why do feel it necessary for the government to regulate my choices of how to live MY life?
He'd be better careful.
Such prolonged exposure in confined quarters – he might catch 'the gay'.
My Pastor told me that gay people are sick, so I can only assume it's an airborne pathogen.
Perhaps, he's looking for a way to 'come out'?
WOW – another ignorant roll wrote, "Oh yea... lets throw this out as well....evolution if false as well."
Then you should have absolutely no problem posting the citations to the peer-reviewed scientific research that falsified the theory of evolution.
@Prim: Why are not apes still evolving? Why can't apes and humans have children if we evolved from apes? LOL Prim, you are blind.
@WOW: Your failure to read a science book about evolution only proves that you are incapable of thinking for yourself. Evolution does not only include the human species. What evolution does say is that we all have a common ancestral relation. Time to go back to school and instead of reading your buybull while they're teaching, actually read the science book they have handed you. Turning a blind eye does not make evolution false!
WOW,
Here's a little project for you. Go to the zoo (or the jungle... your choice). Take a camera and a notebook. Stay there for about 30 MILLION years taking pictures and notes about apes. Get back to us with your results. Bye.
WOW, if God created us from dirt, why is there still dirt?
If God created women from a rib, why can't we produce children by having s3x with ribs?
If you are too stupid to see the logical inconsistencies in your own arguments, how can anyone expect you to understand anything using real logic?
We cannot mate with apes because our DNA does not match. But go ahead and try if it means that much to you.
WOW,
Humans did not evolve FROM apes. They evolved from a common ancestor over MILLIONS of years.
Squirrels and mice evolved from a common ancestor, as evidenced by DNA, body structure and function. I don't ever hear anti-evolutionists say, "If we have mice, why do we still have squirrels?"
WOW again demonstrates his profound ignorance about science.
First off, you choose to dodge my post asking for you to post the scientific evidence supporting your contention that evolution is false.
Instead you wrote, " Why are not apes still evolving? Why can't apes and humans have children if we evolved from apes?"
I want you to post the link to the science site that says we evolved from apes. You can't do it. Do you know why? Because we ARE apes.
Next, I want you to post why you think apes aren't evolving.
The sad thing is that you have pulled this crap before. You were given the science that explains why you were wrong many times before. You have chosen to ignore that evidence, and instead repost the exact same lying drivel.
Do you think your god finds it pleasing to watch you cretins lie in his name?
Oh let us live in a fairy land with rainbows and unicorns where all is to be accepted... Grow up the world is not like that.
Who said it was?
Did you even manage to read Eric's post? Or are your ADHD meds wearing off?
This is what would be referred to as a straw man argument.
It would. But WOW wouldn't know what that was.
WOW, but if we did discover unicorns, would you then claim they are an abomination and god never meant for them to exist? And hate to tell you, rainbows do exist. Soooo tell us your point? People believe different things. In this nation, they are supposed to be allowed to do that, and pursue their vision of life, liberty and happiness. If no one else is harmed, why is acceptance such a bad thing?
I don't think religious people (Believers) understand the difference between Free Will and Determinism.
Some of them have trouble understanding how shoelaces work.
cause-and-effect does not answer questions.
The Baldwin/Perkins interview left me quite impressed with Ms. Baldwin's skill.
Just remember, it is a choice.
It is a choice who you sleep with or don't sleep with.
It is a choice whom you marry or don't marry.
All moral decisions are a choice.
Anybody who says different are simply passing the making excuses for their choices.
Prove it's a moral decision. Then prove that laws in a secular nation are based on morality.
"Just remember, it is a choice."
Being gay is not a choice science in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.
In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"
But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.
This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.
Morality is relative.
MennoKnight, I agree who you sleep with is a choice but do you agree that who you are attracted to is not a choice?
It is a choice and you don't have to prove it. Tommy boy is just a cry baby PLUS being gay is a choice as well. If you tell me that you are born gay then you can be born a hater as well or any other feeling you want to tag to being "born with it". Oh yea... lets throw this out as well....evolution if false as well.
For Tommy boy...if you want people to prove things then go and prove me wrong.
Honey, I don't need to do a thing. You're outing yourself as dumber than a bag of hair just fine.
@eirk: Where is the real fact? What gene makes you gay? neither the map for the X nor the Y chromosome contains any “gay gene.”
Your ignorance of genetics is showing, WOW.
Go back to class, honey.
@ Tommy Boy: You have no clue "Honey" LOL
Oh, I see I hit a nerve. Poor baby.
Re-read the post about genes, HONEY.
Gee, that must mean my friend with inoperable cancer had it by choice. Or that another friend who is unemployed is there by choice. The trouble with people like you is you try to simplify a complex life with innanities like you quoted. You are full of s**t and even dumber than most 'christians". I thought Mennonites had more sense than that.
Tom,
The term “morality” can be used either:
descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
some other group, such as a religion, or
accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/
I believe that any decision that has impact on your lifestyle is a moral decision.
I also agree with you about separation of church and state and that we live in a secular nation. I a Mennonite. We have been persecuted for our stance on separation of church and state.
It doesnt have to be genetic for it to be there. How do you choose who you are naturally attracted to? That does not make sense.
Separation of church in state would apply to this as well since the only reason that gays can't marry are religious reasons.
Who you have sèx with is a choice. The gender that gives your willie a stiffie is not a choice.
I am still eagerly awaiting for the fiorst of you ignorant fundiots to post the citations to peer-reviewed scientific research showing gays choose to be gay.
You have just gone on record (again) claiming this is a fact. The question now is, will you support your "fact"? Or will you ignore it again, like you môrons always do?
Primewonk,
There is a major problem with either "peer reviewed" studies because psychology and sociology are so subjective.
If I use studies that back my findings all you have to do is correctly say that I slanted the questions in my favor.
I say the same thing about your studies too.
ALL People (You and Me included) can and will convince themselves of what ever they already have preconceptions about.
I am working on my masters in Theology with a minor in Sociology (already have my undergrad in this field) and this still does not take away from my "scientific" observation that we all CHOOSE our moral decisions.
You always have the choice.
"I am working on my masters in Theology with a minor in Sociology (already have my undergrad in this field) and this still does not take away from my "scientific" observation that we all CHOOSE our moral decisions.
You always have the choice."
Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.
The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured.
The problem with Mennoknight is they want homosexual people not to be able to have loving intimate long term relationships like heterosexual people, They don't want the homosexual people to have loving families like heterosexuals even though social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.
MennoKnight is just a prejudice intolerant bigot.
We have posted the citations to hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific research articles showing the biological multivariate nature of sèxual orientation. Not once have you, or any other ignorant fundiot posted a refutation. We haved tens of thousands of times for one of you ignorant fundiots to post the citations to peer-reviewed scientific research showing gays choose to be gay.
You, like many ignorant fundiots choose to dodge away and post the drivel that our peer-reviewed science isn't "real science". Sorry, but that isn't your call. You don't have standing to make that call. All you have is your continuing religious idiocy.
YeahRight,
The problem with people like yourself is that as soon as you cannot win an augment because it is a matter of opinion (this is under the opinion section) you name call.
In my OPINION name calling is the sign of immaturity and weak arguments.
Look up the definition of OPINION:
1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: "The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion" (Elizabeth Drew).
2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
4. The prevailing view: public opinion.
5. Law A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.
How do we come up with our ideas and our opinions. We CHOOSE them.
Just like we CHOOSE all of our moral choices.
It does not matter if it is a choice.
I choose who i love.
What right do you have to deny me ?
Your book ?
You have no right to tell me who i can love.
That decision is up to me as a human being.
Your book, and your "sins" mean nothing to me.
They are not gods word.
They are "mans" word.
The human race has much work to do.
Start with your heart, not words in a book.
Funny, he uses the name "mennoknight".
The Menonites do not discriminate against anybody.
They have a live and let live charter, and they force nothing on anybody else.
They practice what they believe, and accept everyone for what they are.
Christians could learn from this.
Sadly, this wont happen.
Fire And Brimstone
I challenge you to read my posts again. Nowhere did I discriminate or not accept you. I am simply saying don't fall for the lie that you don't make your own moral choices and that biology makes them for you.
Mennonites (as I am one of) don't force non-believers to follow the Bible. But we do hold people who are baptized as adults who have said they have chosen to follow the way of Jesus to follow the New Testament standards of morality.
Did I say you cannot get married as a hom.os.exu.al? Did you read that anywhere in my post? Read them.
I simply said you Chose your lifestyle. You Chose who you are going to marry.
Don't fall for the lie that you don't choose your morals.
I choose to follow the teachings of the New Testament because I choose to follow Jesus and not modern views of morality. Nobody made me do it, I chose it.
One of the first things you can do to bring life for your walls is to splash them a new color or attach new wallpaper. This can instantly provide a refreshed hunt for the room at your residence and never have to spend a whole lot.
Home, Furniture and Real Estate Information
Yeah, laugh, laugh to your heart's desire. Because day is coming when you won't laugh.
I know that we are supposed to have compassion on the lost and tell them about the gift of God in His Son Jesus Christ..... But there comes time when even God says, it's enough, let them mock, and throw insults......let the iniquity of the wicked come to it's fullness... Because when His judgment comes upon this evil generation, it will be long overdue! And therefore, it will come in full measure!
Seriously? You really need to be locked-up. You're delirious.
All I hear when Prissy yaps is that wah-wah horn representing the teacher from the Charlie Brown cartoons.
Prissy, you're simply laughable.
I pity you. You will never understand how amazing the universe you live in truly is, nor will you understand how special your live is. But go ahead and die waiting of that train that will never come.
Trying out your usual extortionist threats, PRISM? Making threats is not the way to show us God's love.
It is, however, a great way to push people away from God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and to show us how filled you are with hate.
So people if you allow yourself to become brainwashed like Prism you to can became a bitter judgmental person if you join their cult.
My policy is never to negotiate with terrorists.
Prism1234, Matthew 7:6.
Amen.
You better behave, or else Santa won't bring you any presents this year!
HeavenSent,
"Matthew 7:6."
Pearls dissolve in vinegar. Your acid tongue (and Prism's and other so-called "Christians") leaves them as decayed pulp at the bottom of the glass.
Ahem, carnal lusting in the flesh rejecting Jesus' spiritual truth. All written. Nothing new under the sun.
HeavenSent,
Desperate lusting for not dying... and finding a fantasy to ensure it is not new either.
Prism.
Your god tells you not to judge.
That is his work.
You have chosen to judge.
God put gay people on this planet to test you.
You have failed the test.
Who is the sinner now ?
You are the one that has to answer to god.
As thor throws lightning bolts about the fermament,
Bow to me now or i will smite you, and damn you to eternal heck....
How sick.
They need more than dinner, they need serious medical help(The Christians)
For years and years America let Christian indoctrination run wild.. and now it has come back to haunt them.. in the form of extremism, nuttery, lower education... it's like cancer cells in the body, they want to engulf all; Religion is the cancer of the mind.
Respecting religion is disrespecting humanity... Snap out of it already HELLO
Obviously you aren't a real doctor.
China is on a roll now, publishing millions of bibles. This needs to end now.
HELLO
I keep hearing crickets. Did they escape? Good grief look at how many there are! Egad!
♫♫♫ ♫♫ ♫♫♫♫ ♫ ♫♫
[translation: Surrender immediately or we will be forced to chirp outside your window at night until you go insane!]
doctor zero, who are you kidding? Jesus wrote His truth about life and the hereafter. You arguing against His spiritual truth is nothing new. Carnally minded folks that lust after the flesh is listed through His teachings.
" Jesus wrote His truth "
Where, exactly, are these things your jesus wrote?
On a scale of 1-10, how retarded is the concept of Predestination?
If you believe in the omni-god it's actually a logical conclusion. However, the omni-god is an absolutely retarded concept.
That's the thing I suppose. Christians would have you believing that there is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolant deity who's also enc umbered with rage, jealousy and hatred.
Yeah the idea of an omni-god being jealous or angry never made any since to me either. In fact this line of thinking was my first step on the road to atheism.
@Rational Libertarian "On a scale of 1-10, how retarded is the concept of Predestination?"
@Chad "do you actually know what the doctrine is? Can you describe it?"
The emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
If you like how that looks in your mind, you might be gay.
JohnQuest, Jesus came to earth to live life as a man.
Why don't you take Meher Baba's lead and shut the pie hole? Use an alphabet board and make video's. Send them to your friends and family. You're an idiot.
Before we were born, we were nothing. There was nothing there. No soul. Nothing.
Nobody "came to earth" to do anything. We become self-aware as babies. That's all we have. There is no such thing as a soul.
So HS, how come your omnipotent sky fairy couldn't do all its supposed saving without the loony son sacrifice bit? And for that matter, how was it a sacrifice at all, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time it wants with less than a snap of its fingers? Pretty feeble "god" it is that you've made for yourself.
Along with that, you apparently think your "loving" god will threaten and punish someone with torture forever if they so much as doubt his existence or think a different god exists. Any modern human court would consider such punishment barbaric, to say the least. And the threats of torture purportedly by your god could consti-tute criminal assault.
That's one very nasty god you've made for yourself there. Get past your silly religous myths already. You and your ilk are making America the laughingstock of the world.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement. Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Bob, God created ALL for his pleasure. Forcing folks to love Him is not what He wants. That's why He gave us free will. He sent His son Jesus to earth as a man, walking in the flesh among us to tell us what pleases His father and what does not. You'd know what pleases God if you read Jesus' letter He wrote to ALL of us (the Bible).
If God knows exactly what's going to happen, and everything is already planned, there is no free will. So God puts people on the Earth, knowing they will sin, and then sends them to Hell for the sins he made them commit by creating them. Some God, the Storm God Yahweh.
Also, if The Bible is a letter, War and Peace is a post it note.
An omnipotent, omniscient god precludes the existence of free will. You cannot trick god and end up in heaven if he already knows you are going to hell. You can not surprize god and show up in hell when he expects you in heaven,
You god purposefully creates billions and billions of people for the sole purpose of toturing them for all eternity.
It is sad that God has made a way for us through his Son, yet many reject His sacrifice on the cross and yet blame God for their rejection of Him. They place the responsibility back on God, i.e. God made me knowing I would sin and would go to hell and created me anyway. It is each persons responsibility to seek God out, know Him and have a relationship with Him.
In the end each person will only get what he wishes. God is a respecter of persons. If you do not wish to know Him and have a relationship with Him in this life then when you die, you get what you always wanted...nothing to do with God and eternal separation. God is good always and His decisions are just. Thank you, Lord!
@ttwp
You cannot prove anything you say.
Primewonk, you posted "An omnipotent, omniscient god precludes the existence of free will. You cannot trick god and end up in heaven if he already knows you are going to hell. You can not surprize god and show up in hell when he expects you in heaven,
You god purposefully creates billions and billions of people for the sole purpose of toturing them for all eternity."
Answer: True there are folks created for the eternal flames ... as a test from God to His children ... are you going to follow the lost? Or, are you going to shelf that ego ... humble your self and follow Jesus' truth? Free will.
"Shelf" is a noun, you moron. It's "SHELVE". No wonder you got sh!t-canned from that job.
Irrelevant. Spiritual truth versus carnal lies.
Quite relevant. An illiterate dolt is not capable of interpreting literature.
BTW, HS, you're doing a bang-up job of "ignoring" me. Kudos!
@HS: let's play a game? i will know all the rules and every move you can make. when you make the wrong move as i know you will i will give you a slight shock to correct you, however you can't move correctly unless you ask me very hard in your head; ofcourse if i have deemed you to always move incorrectly as an example to others, then you can ask me all you want to i'm not changing my plan. i must set example for other players so they know what "might" be the rules to the game. ROFLMFAO!!!! that is the type of game your "god" is playing, it's just you religious folks that agree to play his game, we atheist have already played that game and found the rules awefully onesided. heads he wins, tails you lose.
WASP, God created souls for destruction. Some souls will spend eternity with Him, some will not (by choice) and some were created for destruction. Life is God's test. He sent Jesus in human flesh to die for our sins so that we can overcome (carnal sin) by learning His spiritual truth and dwell with Him for eternity.
Carnal thinking, comprehending, outcomes are not going on to eternity.
Did that make sense when you typed it?
Their is no such thing as eternity HS. Eventually the universe will go dark and that will be the end of everything. Eternity and Heaven are concepts made up by a primitive people to alleviate their fear of death.
You have no soul, HeavenSent. That's why you are here with us atheists.
There is no god here. Nothing you do or say makes any difference. There is no god to listen to your whining d-bag complaints.
Yes, it does Tommie, Tom, since you never figured out living carnally, having the flesh guide you, is sin.
Do point out exactly what made sense to you in that sentence, HS. If that's a demonstration of your writing and reasoning skills, it's no wonder you got sh!t-canned from your job.
Tommie, Tom, you are the poster child for allowing your ego to run wild. H U M B L E does not compute for you.
Pot, meet kettle, you putz. Have you figured out the difference between nouns and verbs yet?
Mmmmh, maybe I'm not the only one ignoring the vicious viper TT. LOL.
YeahRight, not by the 2. It's that 3rd party that brings you back to basics. Should we go around again?
Primewonk, twice my response was blocked. Therefore, only your carnal baloney is being printed. So much for even debates happening on this rag site.
Boooohoooooo! Poor stupid HS can't figure out the filter. Same old, same old. VERY old.
Tommie, Tom, still that same chippy miserable self I'm reading in your carnal posts.
Oh, blow it out your tailpipe, you troll.
If you knew how to debate instead of lashing out because you got fired for being a d-bag years ago, we wouldn't laugh at your difficulties, name-stealer.
HS got canned because she was obnoxious and unable to work and play with others.
And I was not talking to Tom but to HeavenSent, the prideful arrogant old sack of pig shtt who never figures anything out.
There is no debate you ignorant, môronic, fundiot, troll. There are only lying sacks of crap, like youself, who seek to deny civil rights to a group of US citizens because your magical invisible skydaddy thinks they are icky.
JohnQuest, Jesus is God. Jesus came to earth in human form to defeat death (sin), to explain to creation what was liked by the Father and what was not.
Well, HS, he appears to have completely screwed that up.
"So much for even debates happening on this rag site."
That's why you spend soooooo much time on this blog. LMAO!
Bleah, man decides to let his ego (carnal living in the flesh) lead him to the eternal flames. Jesus told us to stay humble to learn, comprehend and abide in His spiritual truth.
And he appears to have completely screwed that up as well.
How so? He made you knowing you would deny His truth due to believing your ego that leads your life.
He screwed that up as well, HS, or you did. I can be a Christian anytime I want simply by ignoring all truths like you do.
Prism1234 is an idiot. If you see this person in public, sterilize them immediately.
There's too many of them! They're breeding dimbulbs all over the place! We need a cheap sterilizer gun or aerosol! STAT!
I'm not going near those naughty bits.
TO go to some one's home for dinner is no crime. But this man better be armed with the power of God, because satan will wait for him at the door....When Jesus was in the wilderness being tempted by the devil, he did not heed devils initiations, rebuking him by the Word of God, and on it satan left.
When one agrees to go in a sit/uation like this one, there will be no shortage of lying spirits spinning their web. It's like going into the den of serpents, and not expecting to be bitten...
There is no doubt that h-exual people can have loving home, even being good caretakers of children. But for children to grow up in such abnormal environment, it is bound to produce some emotionally and psychologically confused people. Children are never meant to live in such unnatural environment..... Anyone arguing with this, is only lying to himself!
They're only gonna eat a meal together for crissakes, not blast rays of satanic fire at each other.
It's called "sharing a meal".
I guess you've never eaten food at someone else's house. You need to get out more.
LOL...It doesn't work that way. Eating a meal is only one part.... it's what will go on in natural realm. It's the OTHER part that is of concern! ...But you would not know anything about that!
Satan is much subtler then we humans could ever grasp. It takes the Spirit of God to reveal what's going on, in order to understand!
PRISM 1234, Your analogy is a really bad one, how could Satan temp Jesus if Jesus is God? On it's face it doesn't make sense, if Jesus is God and God has or in control of Everything (including Satan) how could Satan offer anything to God. Unless Jesus is not God?
Consider the following, currently all Gays are from Straight couples, my your logic the thing to do is ban all Straight couples because they are obviously raising confused kids that turn out Gay (or serial killers, rapist, politicians, Priest and the like).
I wouldn't mind seeing all people get sterilized and be required to pass a stringent course on how to raise a child before being allowed to have one or even be around one. I've seen people grow up to be child abusers. This needs to stop.
@Prism
What is the "natural" environment for raising a child? In prehistoric times women were almost exclusively responsible for raising children, and the children were raised in a communal setting. All of the groups women watched all of the children while the men hunted. It's only within the last few thousand years that males have had anything to do with child rearing. And what about single parents, extended families, adopted children, or children raised in religious communes? They're many types of family and it seems incredibly arrogant, not to mention foolish, to proclaim that only one type of family is "natural" and capable of producing happy well adjusted children. Maybe if you had cited some peer reviewed research to support your claim you would have a leg to stand on, but, unfortunately, those studies don't support your claim.
This nut actually thinks there will be a "holy battle" in the "spiritual realm" at dinnertime! LOLOL
JohnQuest, God sent His only son to earth to not only live in the flesh (experience all of life in human form), but, to die for all our sins. Life is a test from God. Follow Jesus' spiritual truth and your soul lives while on earth as it is in Heaven, reside with Him for eternity. Or, love and follow satan (lies as in carnal beliefs), die spiritually while on earth, then physical death ... soul goes back to God who created all, wait for the day of the Lord, still hate Jesus' spiritual truth ... no eternity for you. Choose wisely, your soul depends on it.
As for your comment about parents and their children ... every one chooses what they will do with their free will.
Except, of course, that you are lying. All the real scientific evidence shows that kids raised by gay/lesbian parents are just as well adjusted, if not more, than kids raised by straights.
Why do you fundiots lie? Do you think it is pleasing to your god to see you môrons lie like this?
HeavenSent, that still does not answer the question, if Jesus is God how could Satan temp him with anything. Also, if there is a God as you believe then there is no such thing as free will, there can't be. If everything you do is "preordained" you have no choice in do it, no matter what you "decided" that decision is already known and accounted for, you have no options to do anything else, No Free Will.
Prissy, you are such a typically arrogant fundy azzhole. You have NO evidence whatsoever that children raised by gay couples are harmed in ANY way. That's because there is none. Studies show that children of lesbian couples actually do better in some ways than kids in straight families.
Now stop your lies and either provide proof that your idiotic assumptions have any basis in fact, or shut up.
If anyone is harmed it is the children that are raised in religious homes. Religious indoctrination is child abuse and the murder of a perfectly good mind.
JohnQuest, JohnQuest, Jesus came to earth to live life as a man explaining God's truth to humans.
Voice of Reason, you are used to living a lie.
JohnQuest, if I were preordained to no eternity, I would humble myself so quick, ask Jesus for forgiveness and if I could get closer to Him, then sin no more. Jesus' first truth was to stay humble while we walked through life's test.
Prism, "armed" with the power of god" -too funny. That'll get you far in a battle. /sarcasm. Might as well ask for help from the tooth fairy.
So HS, you apparently think your "loving" god will threaten and punish someone with torture forever if they so much as doubt his existence or think a different god exists. Any modern human court would consider such punishment barbaric, to say the least. And the threats of torture purportedly by your god could consti-tute criminal assault.
That's one very nasty god you've made for yourself there. No thanks. You can keep your jerk of a sky fairy. To yourself. Quietly, please.
HeavenSent, If Jesus was God, then it was easy for him, no harm could possibly come to him unless he wanted it to. What test could God give God? Either Jesus is God or he was not God, if you say both then your reasoning is flawed (both true and false at the same time). If a person can believe something is true and false at the same time, what does that tell you about their reasoning?
Your home is yours and not yours, you were born a human and not a human, Zeus is real and not real. Do you not see the circularity to this line of reasoning (this is why Christianity is hard to swallow).
I do not believe there is a God, therefor we do have Free Will. They both can not be true at the same time (at least not the God of the Christians), either we have Free Will or there is a God.
Prism how do you know that they are satanic? You are talking about a loving couple that has children together. If you saw them together would you tell those children that their family is satanic? The problem is it isn't just couples it is also children you are hurting by what you say.
"But for children to grow up in such abnormal environment, it is bound to produce some emotionally and psychologically confused people. Children are never meant to live in such unnatural environment..... Anyone arguing with this, is only lying to himself!"
The experts totally disagree with you, only prejudice bigots write this kind of trash. Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.
Huebert, back to basics ... sperm + egg(s) = production.
"sperm + egg(s) = production."
gays can reproduce and so can infertile couples. LMAO!
This couple is gay and they are having children. One of them is pregnant. They must be able to reproduce somehow.
Heaven sent, loser virgins like yourself who could not get another human being to touch you if your life depended on it should not be trying to teach others about reproduction.
Oooh. Do tell, HS. Are married straight couples required by law to reproduce? Do you think that if gays are allowed to marry that they will not have children? Why? They're having them all the time. Do you somehow imagine that if gay marriage is legal, more people will become gay and endanger the human race?
Does your stupidity never end?
Bob, do you know or not know? It's God's ball park. If you refuse to learn His spiritual truth ... you can take your bat and ball and leave.
Tommie, Tom, since you enjoy bullying folks on this blog ... you haven't figured out that some of us ignore you.
Big skip on that one ... LOL.
How come you don't?
@prism1234 – Thanks for the laugh. Your rant sounds like Piper Laurie's character in the original Carrie.