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May 31st, 2012
05:17 AM ET
Church videos with harsh words for gays go viral onlineBy Richard Allen Greene and Dan Gilgoff, CNN First it was a Christian pastor in North Carolina who told his congregation on Mother's Day that the way "to get rid of all the lesbians and queers" was to put them behind an electric fence and wait for them to die out. That video went viral, fetching more than a million views on YouTube. On Sunday, Pastor Curtis Knapp of Kansas preached that the government should kill homosexuals, in another videotaped sermon that drew lots of online attention. "They won't, but they should," Knapp said, according to a recording of his sermon posted online. Since that sermon, another church video with harsh words for gays has caught fire online. This one shows a young boy singing an anti-gay song while the congregation cheers him on in what appears to be a church in Indiana. "I know the Bible’s right, somebody’s wrong,” the boy sings near the pulpit of a church. “Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven." As the boy repeats the line “Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven," congregants from the pews rise and cheer. The video, which was anonymously posted online and has received more than 300,000 views on YouTube, appears to show a service at the Apostolic Truth Tabernacle Church in Greensburg, Indiana. Calls to the church this week went to voicemail, with an automatic message saying the mailbox is full. But a message posted on the church’s website on Wednesday appears to address the controversy, offering no apology for the video. “The Pastor and members of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason. We believe and hope that every person can find true Bible salvation and the mercy and grace of God in their lives,” the statement says. “We are a strong advocate of the family unit according to the teachings and precepts found in the Holy Bible,” said the statement, which did not explicitly refer to the video or mention homosexuality. “We believe the Holy Bible is the Divinely-inspired Word of God and we will continue to uphold and preach that which is found in scripture.” The viral videos have drawn criticism from gay and lesbian groups and their allies. Charles Worley’s sermon at Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, North Carolina, sparked a protest that drew more than 1,500 people last weekend. In Kansas, Knapp's voicemail at the New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca was filled with messages saying "things you don't want your kids to hear," he told CNN affiliate KTKA. An official with the Kansas-Nebraska Convention of Southern Baptists issued a statement to CNN on Thursday saying that Knapp’s church had left the Southern Baptist fold in 2010. “Obviously, he has taken a radical and unbiblical stand in regards to homosexuality,” said Tim Boyd, communications director for the convention. “We look at homosexuals as we look at all sinners,” his statement said. “God loves them. Christ died for them. The Gospel calls them to repentance and salvation. Therefore, we as Christ-followers should hate the sin and love the sinner.” But Knapp is not backing away from his comments. "We punish pedophilia. We punish incest. We punish polygamy and various things. It's only homosexuality that is lifted out as an exemption," he said. He cited the Biblical verse Leviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They shall surely be put to death." But he said gay people had nothing to worry about from the government or from him. "I don't believe I should lay a finger against them," said Knapp, of New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas. "My hope is for their salvation, not for their death." Preaching against homosexuality the same day, another pastor appeared to wrestle with how conservative Christians should respond to proposals that people should literally mete out biblical punishments. "What about this guy down in North Carolina said build a big prison, a big fence and put them all in there and let them die out?" Dennis Leatherman asked in a sermon at the Mountain Lake Independent Baptist Church in Maryland. "Listen, I don't know that fellow. As far as I can tell, he seems like a decent guy, but he is dead wrong on that. That is not the scriptural response," Leatherman said in his sermon "Homosexuality & the Bible," according to a cached version of the transcript posted online. The audio of the sermon does not appear on his church's website. In the sermon, he floats the idea of killing homosexuals, whom he refers to as sodomites, then backs away from it. "There is a danger of reacting in the flesh, of responding not in a scriptural, spiritual way, but in a fleshly way. Kill them all. Right? I will be very honest with you. My flesh kind of likes that idea," Leatherman said. "But it grieves the Holy Spirit. It violates Scripture. It is wrong," he added immediately. The Southern Baptist Convention distanced itself from Worley's remarks. The nation's largest Baptist group said Providence Road Baptist in Maiden is not affiliated with its 16 million-member denomination and condemned the comments. But the influential head of the giant movement's seminary does argue that homosexuality "is the most pressing moral question of our times." In a comment piece for the Belief Blog in the wake of Worley's sermon, R. Albert Mohler Jr. dismissed critics who say conservative Christians focus on homosexuality while ignoring other things the Bible prohibits. He contends that laws about keeping kosher, for example, do not apply to Christians, while commandments about homosexuality do. "When it comes to homosexuality, the Bible's teaching is consistent, pervasive, uniform and set within a larger context of law and Gospel," he wrote. "Christians who are seriously committed to the authority of the Bible have no choice but to affirm all that the Bible teaches, including its condemnation of homosexuality," he said. A member of Worley's 300-member church defended him in an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper. "Of course he would never want that to be done," Stacey Pritchard said of the proposal to put homosexuals behind a fence and leave them there to die out. "But I agree with what the sermon was and what it was about." CNN Belief Blog co-editor Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report. soundoff (4,073 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 Next »
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Seething murderous death = Religion
I assure you, MY God will punish you for worshipping the bible.
Being gay was a capital offense in the OT. It did not become 'ok' just because it can be forgiven. It CAN be forgiven, but only because God allowed His son to be crucified for the sinners.
@Phil – being born gay is no more immoral than being born left-handed or black.
Oh...Wait...It wasn't that long ago that good christians said that being born left-handed was a sign of the devil and that being born black was the mark of Cain.
Sorry, but this is just one more thing (in a very long list of things) that your god got completely wrong.
@Prim: Again the same old thing. Really? Born gay? You can't prove that and you know it.
WOW: No more than you can prove it is a choice
@Sam: If you can't prove you are born gay then how do you explain being gay?
@ WOW.....did you wake up one morning and choose to be straight? No, you were born that way. 'nuff said.
@wow
Their is a great deal of evidence for the "gay gene". But, like virtually everything else in psychology and human relationships, hom.ose.xuality is caused by a complex interplay between genetics and environmental factors. Current research says that the causes of hom.ose.xuality are about 50% environmental factors and 50% genetic predisposition. Though don't go beveling that "environmental factors" means it's a choice. Cancer a similar interplay of environmental and genetic factors but no one would say that cancer is a choice.
Additionally, if hom.ose.xuality is a choice wouldn't heterose.xuality also be a choice? When did you chose to be a heterose.xual? Do you feel se.xual desire for both genders but only act on your desiers towards women? Of course you don't you're, I'm as.suming, a heterose.xual male. you never chose it it's just the way you were born.
p.s. Hear are some links to research supporting the "gay gene"
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?volume=48&issue=12&page=1089
@Rog: No, not enough said. That statement still does not prove you are born gay. You Failed. You don't know if I was once gay, bi or been straight all my life. What if I was gay and decided one day that I like both male and female or maybe just female.
@Hue: Supporting does not equate to proving that you are born gay. If I am not mistaken the Genome Project was completed in 2003 and no "gay gene" was found. If you can't prove that you are born gay then it must be a choice or be based on experiences a person has from birth on.
Comparing being gay to Cancer is a "Straw man argument"
No single "height" gene has been found either. Does that mean being short is a choice?
Scientists haven't ponpointed an allegy gene either. Anaphalaxis is a choice?
Perhaps baldness is a better example.
People can chose to be bald, but some folk simply lose their hair. There is no a single gene responsible, but like with all human characteristics it is the result of complex interplays of both genetic and environmental circu.mstances.
@WOW
You also seem to misunderstand the Human Genome Project.
In 2003, the mapping was largely completed (there's still a little under 10% not mapped) but interpreting the data will take decased more research.
It's like NASA satellites – they have been collecting reams of data for half a century, but we've only scratched the surface when it comes to using all that information to answer practical questions.
@Doc: One’s ultimate height is determined by a complex interaction of many factors including nutrition, genes, and overall health. Growth rates vary over a lifetime:
From infancy, when average length is 20 inches, to age 2 there is initially rapid growth, then slowing, with about 14 inches in height added.
From age 2 to puberty there is slow, steady growth at about 2½ inches per year.
As one enters puberty, a growth spurt of 3 to 5 inches in a year is common.
By ages 40 to 50, height actually may begin slowly to decline, even in healthy adults.
@doc:As for the Genome Project you are basically stating the fact that no "gay gene" has been found at this time and may or may not ever be found. Soooo.. again you can't prove that you are born gay.
Let's assume for a minute that religious scriptures and teachings really are inspired and True (let's make that one short minute, only!). The Old Testament states that all pagan religions are wrong, the Christians state that the New Testament overrules the Old Testament so it's wrong, the Mormons and Muslims state that the New Testament is prophecy but not divine so it's wrong, and the Jews say Mormonism and Islam are blasphemy so they're both wrong. Which brings us back to the Old Testament (which is wrong).
So, based completely on religious authority and divine inspiration we can conclude that – all of it is wrong!
Or, could it be that they are all worshiping the same God and they are all right?
And yet, Helena. Scientific inquiry is full of the same stuff. One theory is overturned by a new one. The adherents of the old one fight tooth-and-nail to defend their obsolete paradigms. Usually, because their egos are stongly attached to the old ideas.
The Big Lie as practiced by the modern faux Christian – " Love the sinner, hate the sin ". This allows them to spew whatever hateful, bigoted nonsense they wish. When called out, they say " Oh, you misunderstand, we just hate the sin you are guilty of ". Then they go on their merry way, with " Pastors " like orley and Knapp advocating internment camps, electrified fences, and death.
'Love the sinner, hate the sin' isn't even scripture – it's a quote from Ghandi's 1929 autobiography!
How clever of the holy Rev Joseph Reeder; he challenges everyone to read the bible about slavery, he lies about what it says...you all find what the bible REALLY says about women and slaves...quoting chapter and verse.
And what does Rev. Reeder do?
DEFLECTS THE ARGUMENT to some non-sensical BS about OCCUPY WALL STREETERS! And then, like the coward he really is, he just DISAPPEARS.
And Crickets Chirp...
Hey Rev. Reeder: THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS?
It means YOU stand a better chance of burning in hell before LGBT folks do... Because YOU have broken one of your God's commandments. Thats what it means. Shame on you!
Jonathan Thomas, it is my understanding that the Bible has too many contradictory verses to be infallible. for instance, There is only One God and Thou shall have no other God but me. This is a clear contradiction they both can't be true. So which is it only one God or or multiple Gods?
This one is elementary so I'll take it. The first section – There is only one God. Simple enough. The Second section – Thou shall have no other God's before me is an admonishment for us men not to place anything above our worship of him thus making another God out of .... say righteousness, immorality, condemnation under the law, lust
Bill Deacon, I think you are wrong, It seems to me that the God of the Bible believed that there were other Gods. Several times in the Bible "God" referred to other Gods, Us, We and so forth, other God were even listed by name (Ba'al for instance). Those other character flaws are mentioned specifically immorality, lust, greed and so on.
"Be like me or I'll ask the government to kill you". Yes I clearly remember that passage from the Sermon On the Mount. For fcuks sake, this pastor is asking for state sanctioned killings because his big book of bull sh!t tells him to kill hom.ose.xuals. How could anyone support this psychopath?
Thank you. Very well said.
These protests are not attempting to silence preachers. We need preachers to continue spewing their hate that is in their hearts so America can see the ugly that is Christianist-Nationalism. We protest to let America know there is another side to the story, not all Christians hate people.
How religion poisons everything; That pastor was destroyed by his religion too... he needs help
A seemingly insurmountable difficulty in citing the Bible in support of anything is that you are essentially citing an authour you know nothing about.
The Bible is a compilation of writings, the earliest written about 800 BC and the latest around 300 AD. We know virtually nothing of its dozens of authors. We know that the traditional fables about Moses (who likely never existed) writing the first five books of the Old Testament is nonsense, that Matthew, MArk, Luke and John were not who early Catholics claimed they were and that at least three and perhaps six of the letters of Saint Paul are forgeries.
To cite any unknown later Bronze Age Palestinean Jewish religious figure for anything in the context of 21st Century US social policy is beyond absurd and borders on insane.
US social policy has been mostly a failure, Colin. A mere hundred years ago, US social policy was for a very few extremely wealthy people to enslave hundreds of thousands of immigrants in mines, mills, factories, fields. THis happened the world over. Enter Karl Marx, Lenin, Stalin, the Cold War. Then you have the Native Americans, made homeless by business interests which were backed up by the military. Now, Native Americans live in poverty and terrible health throughout the States. The things this country is doing today were spoken out against in scriptures written 3000 years ago.
Actually warfare and conquest are glorified in the old testament
The pastors and congregants who cite Leviticus etc. to support their prejudices are NOT Christians. They are Biblicans – those who worship the Bible, but ignore the teachings of Jesus. They are not believers in the Christ, but rather believers in Old Testament law. So therefore, if Old Testament law was sufficient, if it holds all the answers for Biblicans ... why did Jesus bother to come and preach? Why did Jesus preach inclusive love and forgiveness if the Old Testament was the final word on all matters? And how could Billy Graham turn his back on Jesus after spending his entire life trying to bring souls to God? The hypocrisy of Biblicans is astounding! They are the Pharisees of today, who have never accepted Jesus, and should never again call themselves Christians. Let them live if they can by Old Testament laws and take down the crucifix from all of their churches. Jesus would never cross the doorstep of a Biblican house of hate and exclusion.
In the early days of the REformation, the sacraments were thrown out. Those who had authority to "bind and loose" were dismissed. So how was a Chrisitian to know if he was right with God? Well, it took this form: " If I am healthy and materially prosperous, then I'm blessed by God." By default, anyone who was not so blessed was obviously "wrong" with God. So, I'd like to ask a question: Are gay people "wrong" with God because they are gay? Or are they gay because they are wrong with God? (down at the Catholic parish, we don't hear much about this subject)
Just curious, "So how was a [Catholic] to know if [his priest] was right with God?"
Jeebus told him so.
Your base point is wrong, so your post is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong, or immoral, or a sin, with being born gay. Sèxual orientation is innate. It isn't a choice. I wonder why you didn't learn this in biology class?
@Prim: why do you not EVER understand that being gay is a CHOICE. You always say the same thing. You know you can't prove you are born gay so you FAILED... LOL.
WOW: Okay, prove it is a choice.
@Sam: No you prove that a person is born gay. You can't.
to Mark 10:20
Something to chew on. God used a fallible object (man), to write and decipher his thoughts. What are the odds at least some portion of the writing fall victim to a fallible object. At one time, the thought of commenting online as we are doing now was inconceivable. Yet, here we are. I spent 34 years as a Youth Minister in a evangelical church. reasonably well trained ined and versed in scripture. Even I concede that a fallible vessel used to house infallible thought is at best a high gamble. God would have to possess the vessel to make it infallible. That my friend is how Jesus came to be. To my knowledge he was the only one.
You hold a rational and reasonable stance, for which no man could fault you. But the bible is an infallible message, moreover it is the truth through and through. The scriptures claim to be infallible themselves and as of yet no man has been able to disprove the inerrancy of the bible, Do we disagree with the opinions of the bible sometimes? Yes. But that is known as heresy. do we interpret the scriptures wrong? All the time, but that is our own mishandling of something greater than ourself. I have yet to meet a man with a perfect theology, because as much as we would like to think we understand God, we dont.
@Jonathan Thomas, do you not think that if an infallible creature wanted to impart its directives and commands upon a consistently fallible species, that it would have taken great pains to be exceedingly specific in its manifest text, and allow no room for alternate interpretation?
Also, is your middle name Taylor? Were you the middle child in the show Home Improvement?
Wow. The bible was written by ancient bronze age, racist, misogynistic, middle eastern men who had no knowledge of the rest of the world. As was the torah and Koran. All these works if fiction are rife with contradictions, lies, they condone slavery, and full of hate for anyone who does not agree with them. Some infallible god you have. These books of "truth" get destroyed any time critical thinking or science is applied to them. Your religion, like your non existent god is a joke.
A very good observation, chipndale. Actually, Jesus set the precedent for placing an infallible truth into the hands fallible people. He chose Judas who betrayed Him, Peter who denied Him, James and John who wanted a prestigous place at His right hand. And most interesting of all: God was the author of US. And look how we've turned out.
You honestly believe that a human being can emerge from an aquatic creature's digestive tract unscathed after three days?
Or that snakes can talk, kill you with a glance and/or go about their merry lives while aflame?
That just a few thousand years ago, human beings lived to be 1000 years old?
That 3 breeding pairs of humans, the males all being directly related and one of whom being 600 years old, were responsible to repopulating the entire human race as well as restoring all bio-diversity after a catastrophic global flood?
Clear thought provokes clear answers. It is appreciated.
Jonathon wrote, "But the bible is an infallible message, moreover it is the truth through and through. The scriptures claim to be infallible themselves and as of yet no man has been able to disprove the inerrancy of the bible,"
Are you nuts? Seriously, are you sure this is how you want to rolll? Your god got the very first verse of the very first chapteer, of the very first book wrong. The earth was not created in the beginning. The universe existed for 9 billion years before the earth formed.
@prim: Can you not type correct words? REALLY? Who can take someone seriously who cannot type... LOL.
Sorry WOW, I apologize. Right now I'm using a tablet with a bluetooth keyboard. Small sensitive keys and short fat fingers do not mix. And there is no imbedded spellcheck.
Okay. It may have already been brought up, but just in case it has not, before anyone starts saying that if Christians say that people should not engage in a certain lifestyle because the Bible says so, why do they continue to eat shell fish, stop and think about what you are saying before you make a fool of your self. Pleas stop and ask yourself whether or not you are merely regurgitating what someone else has already said. Do you even know why the Bible says not to eat shell fish? If so, how can you connect that reason with the Bible's stance on moral issue. All I'm asking is that if your going to pull the whole "The Bible also says don't eat shellfish!" argument, PLEASE stop and think before you show everyone how ignorant and scripturally illiterate you really are.
I'd frankly be more inclined to go the whole slavery route
Same problem. Stop and think. Are you simply repeating something, or do you truly understand what the Bible says about slavery. Have you researched it yourself, or have you simply assumed that the Bible endorses slavery as you understand slavery because you have heard/read that people say that it does?
The bible says that women must obey their husbands. That statement alone is immoral enough for me (and any other intelligent woman) to ignore the rest of what is in the bible.
You know, I could reply to every comment, but the way the trend is looking, I just have a blanket answer.
Stop and think.... Does the Bible really say that? Have you researched that yourself, or are you merely regurgitating what you have heard or have always thought and/or assumed?
Look don't play those tricks on me, I know that Biblical slavery didn't resemble american slavery. It was still slavery though, and the bible still encourages slaves to obey their masters.
And yes, the bible really does say women should obey their husbands, and that they should stay quiet in church!
Yes, I know for a fact that the bible really says that. It's not written in code. It's written plainly. And considering that historically EVERY Christian faith has treated women as second class citizens (if that well), the leaders of Christian sects have taken that statement on it's face as well.
I also love the 'but the slavery in the bible was different so it was okay'. Slavery is slavery. Having any type of master servant relationship between humans is immoral. Period.
Once again. That is an assumption. The Bible condemns slavery. The slaves in the Bible were not forced to be slaves. A more proper term would be indebted servitude. You could work for someone seven years to pay off a debt. After seven years, your debt was paid, and you were free to go. Definitely not slavery as we understand it. The argument that the Bible endorses slavery is absolutely ridiculous.
The Bible also has strict slavery laws. Anyone who abused or mistreated a slave was severely punished, anyone who killed a slave was put to death. If a run away slave entered the community seeking protection, that community had to protect that person.
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
Yeah, pretty stringent.
Also, slavery is immoral EVEN IF it is "voluntary!" Plenty of se x slaves today entered the trade "voluntarily" because they had no other choice.
The Bible accepts slavery as a fait accompli for the simple reason that it is a book of its times, written by people who lived in a violent part of the World. It is classic late Bronze Age Mediterranean mythology. For example,
Leviticus 25:44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
You concept of "slave" is completely inconstant with what the scriptures regard as slaves. Here is how someone because a slave. Someone would become in debt to someone else but become unable to pay off said debt. One method to pay that debt was to work for that person for an agreed amount of time that the person that needed his debt collected decided on. After that work is completed, the debt is paid, and the person resumes their normal life. It would help if you did some research of the culture of the people living in the land of Canaan in the Late Bronze Period (1550-1200 BC) to give you a better understanding of the context.
Slaves could also be taken from enemy nations during wars. Parents could also sell their children into slavery. And even the indentured servitude arrangement you describe is highly inhumane. Don't sugar coat it.
The Rev. wrote, " The Bible condemns slavery. The slaves in the Bible were not forced to be slaves. A more proper term would be indebted servitude. You could work for someone seven years to pay off a debt. After seven years, your debt was paid, and you were free to go"
Imagine that! A "man of god", lying on an internet forum!
Leviticus 25:44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
But what about buying Israelite slaves? There you are right. Male slaves were freed after 7 years. Of course if the Master gave him a woman, she and any kids had to stay. And if the man didn't want to leave his wife, then he also stayed a slave for live.
But Rev.? What about the females? Well, Exodus 21:7 says, " When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are." So once again your pathetic putz of a god shows his overwhelming hatred of women.
So Rev? Why do you fundiots lie like this?
@Rev
As for biblical slavery – the NT basically says for slaves to obey their masters, which I suppose would be part and parcel of the Christian virtue of humility.
But both the NT and OT are replete with misogyny.
As I Timothy 2:11-14 reminds us, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
"Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:19
Ephesians 5:22 teaches us wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Some of the most revered Christian theologans were rampant misogynists.
Calvin described women as
"... more guilty than the man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading all to perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame."
And don't forget what God did to the daughters of Zion in Isaiah 3:18 when he took all their jewelry, fine clothes, make-up and mirrors before making them bald and rotten smelling, not to mention killing every man those women cared about.
The lesson the Bible teaches is that a good Christian woman should be silent, submissive, subservient and filled with shame for the curse her gender forced on humanity.
You should know taht something is awry in your belief system when you find yourself defending slavery.
Thank you Primewonk.
The reverend is not addressing the bible's treatment of women (as slaves or otherwise), because he really doesn't have a problem with the fact that women are seen as nothing more than property.
I really do not think that position that the Bible regards women as property and second class citizens is compatible with the accounts of women being leaders, queens, military commanders, prophetesses, etc. People who are merely second class citizens at best would never amount to such positions.
Often powerful female figures in the bible are villainized though, as in the case of jezebel
"I really do not think that position that the Bible regards women as property and second class citizens is compatible with the accounts of women being leaders, queens, military commanders, prophetesses, etc. People who are merely second class citizens at best would never amount to such positions."
Do not mistake the ability of women to overcome extreme oppression as evidence that the oppression never existed or wasn't that bad. You'd have to be truly blind to history to believe otherwise, as it appears that you are.
@Rev. Joseph Reeder,
You appear to be rationalizing away to the Bible perspective on slavery in order to make it more palatable for today's morals. This is similar to Southern's pre-Civil War saying that slavery was good for slaves because they couldn't take care of themselves.
Disgusting really.
We can thank the rise of secularism for most of those things, not the bible. The bible has been used as an excuse to keep women out of business leadership positions, the military, even as an excuse as to why women should not be allowed to vote. And historically, most nations only allowed a woman to become queen if there were no male heirs. England JUST changed their laws to allow a first born female to take the throne.
And it has only been in the last twenty years or so that women have been able to take any type of leadership role in the Christian church, though many sects are still strongly against allowing this (especially the Catholic church). The bible is clear! We are not allowed to speak in church! Do you dispute this? Do you dispute that the bible says women must submit to our husbands?
So, Rev., according to you, your god did not treat women as second class folks. Please explain why Paul basically told women to sit down and shut up in church? Why were women instructed to obey their husbands?
Why, when you sold ytour daughter to your neighbor to use as a sèx slave, did she not get to go free after 7 years, like her brother? And do you think it would be disturbing for a mother to have her husband sell her daughter to their neighbor as a sèx slave? Do you think the mother was saddened having to listen to her daughter scream in terror every night as she was repeatedly ràped?
And why-o-why would a woman be "unclean" twice as long after giving birth to a girl than a boy?
HAHAHA. You people all act you're not slaves. Wages slaves. Slaves to concrete thinking. Slaves to our monumental national debt. Slaves to lust and greed. Just try not obeying your master, employer, IRS agent, your carnal desires or even your own convoluted thinking and find out just how free you really are LOL.
Ummm...I'm not forced to work for any employer. I'm not forced to work at all. And if I don't work, I don't pay taxes so I don't have an IRS agent either. Your analogy sucks!
Thank you Jen. What time is that OWS meeting anyway?
Actually my husband and I both make over $100k/yr and my husband works in the investment industry (so OWS would not be a fan of ours ). But that is my choice! If the bible was allowed to rule this society I would never have the job I have. I would only be able to have a job serving men for little to no money or at home serving my husband. That is a fact, and you cant deny it!
God. Is. A Myth. Get over it. Really. It's embarrassing to be human when other humans believe in myths such as your "God"
@Mark: I'm just curious. You stated your beliefs about some non-Christians. I wonder, what is your definition of Christian? Do you include Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians (Eastern, Oriental, etc..), Anglican Christians, Coptic Christians, etc...
The point is by good "Christians", do you only mean your own denomination? Are all others going to hell too unless they repent?
To Mark 10:20
I believe most reasonable people have no issues with faith or beliefs. I think it is of grave danger when you suggest that others who do not believe are destined to an eternity of damnation. Surely you can see both sides. Please take into consideration that 2000 – 10000 years ago people percieved the word much much differently. Their understanding of the world around them was much different. Things they did not understand were often written as miracles or amazing things. naturally since they could not understand, it was abvios they defaulted to the thought it must come from a being with much greater unexplainable power. If science accomplishes anything it attempts to explain the unexplainable.
The issue is not what we 'think' but what the Bible says. It's not my opinion that those that do not put their trust in Jesus as their savior will go to hell. That is a Biblical fact.
I find the comments by any person that call for the killing of certain people, or the "fencing in" of them completely uncalled for. However, I do have a question. How come everyone flips out when someone says put those people in a fence so they can die out and everyone flips out, yet the "Occupy" movement chants, "What do we want? Dead Cops!" or things like "Only the blood of the rich will stop 'Occupy'!" and no one cares? Biased maybe?
I actually do care when occupy says things like that, and I speak out against it. No one gets a free pass
I agree that the majority of people don't approve of their comments either. But I do think there is a difference between a bunch of college kids living in tents mouthing off, and a pastor (who many believe to be an authority figure), telling people that God says it is okay to put people in a concentration camp. Neither should be saying those things, but the latter is more likely to invoke violence towards a certain group.
How clever of the holy Rev Joseph Reeder; he challenges everyone to read the bible about slavery, he lies about what it says...you all find what the bible REALLY says about women and slaves...quoting chapter and verse.
And what does Rev. Reeder do?
DEFLECTS THE ARGUMENT to some non-sensical BS about OCCUPY WALL STREETERS! And then, like the coward he really is, he just DISAPPEARS.
And Crickets Chirp...
Hey Rev. Reeder: THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS?
It means YOU stand a better chance of burning in hell before LGBT folks do... Because YOU have broken one of your God's commandments. Thats what it means. Shame on you!
If in the (human) world there were only gays, the (human) world would eventually end. The rest of the animal kingdom would be so much better off. Yea. We are still animals. We do, however, have the power of thought and are able to make up stories(myths, lies, etc.) to control the masses in hard times. Take care of our earth. Really. Wow.
And mark, the tautology I was referring to is believing that a book is true because it says it is
Under your thinking Mark, because the vast majority of the planet does not follow the bible almost everybody in the world today is going to hell. Pretty horrible god that sends people to earth for a short time only to then send them to hell to burn for eternity. Your god sounds like a sadist to me.
Everyone on earth is accountable for their sinfulness and deserves to go to hell. God has provided sufficient revelation to point everyone to him. He has provided general revelation, the conscience and his Word. Anyone that rejects his revelation pointing them to his truth and the savior deserves to die in their sinfulness and go to hell. Each person here has been warned. There is not one person here who has not committed at least one sin. A just God holds a person accountable for their actions. God would be unjust if he did not send people to hell. Every sin a person committs wrongs God. If you were 'wronged', you would want justice.
Mark.. I think you are missing the point. First I never asked to be part of this stupid game so why should I abide by any rules? Second you are committing a logic fallacy. You are assuming that there is only two possible outcomes when there are literately thousands. You nor I have any idea what the rules are and what the outcomes will be. You have decided to place a bet on the chance that there is a God. Good for you. So even if there was a God, are you in any better position then the non believer? What if you choose the wrong God, what if there are multiple Gods. Or the true religion is Judaism. Or how about that if their was a supreme being he would act like one and not a child? Seems to me as a supreme being that gave man the power of logic and deduction, would be very dissapointed in people that wasted that gift by being a blind follower. Most intellectual beings prefer other intellectual beings over followers. So did you ever consider that maybe as a supreme test he is hoping that you use reason and logic to form an opinion. By not using logic you are committing the real sin and not worthy for further enlightenment. But alas no of us know what the rules are.
I really don't understand these people the just come on the boards to quote bible passages. Do you really think you are even going to convince one person to become a bible thumper? If anything, you are doing the exact opposite 🙂
Worse is the adamancy that the reason that the bible is true is because it says it's true. That thought makes my brain melt.
I really do not understand people that come onto these boards with nothing to offer, except for their opinions. If truth is relative and relegated to opinions, you should keep it to yourself. What value are opinions if their not rooted in truth? Those offerering Bible quotations are offering truth for those that will listen.
To the pastors who advocate killing gays... just shut up and turn the other cheeck.
The Bible, if taken literally, will rot your brain.
Nope. The truth will set you free (Jn 8:32).
Nope, the bible is like brain diabetes.
Mark, do you not see a problem with believing a book is the word of god simply because it says it is?
"Nope. The truth will set you free (Jn 8:32)."
Again, words written by a bunch of fallible humans over a long period of time.
There are several studies that show the correlation between high levels of religious belief and low levels of knowledge & education. Simply put, modern intelligent individuals are too smart to believe this stuff.
I believe its pronounced diab-bee-tus.
Also, the bible is for people who can't, or just don't want to understand science or physics.
@I'm The Best, I wish CNN would allow me to "like" your post. Dia-bee-tus indeed.
Mark1020: So all you have shown is that you're not capable of thinking for yourself. What would you do without that book of fiction to guide you? Only children and schizophrenics have imaginary friends and given that you most likely are not a child, we can only as.sume you suffer from a mental illness (the religious virus, well known for shutting down what could be a normal functioning brain...it prevents you from thinking for yourself, leads you by fear, lies to you & makes you believe in things that can't be proven to exist or have ever existed).
"So all you have shown is that you're not capable of thinking for yourself. What would you do without that book of fiction to guide you? Only children and schizophrenics have imaginary friends and given that you most likely are not a child, we can only as.sume you suffer from a mental illness (the religious virus, well known for shutting down what could be a normal functioning brain...it prevents you from thinking for yourself, leads you by fear, lies to you & makes you believe in things that can't be proven to exist or have ever existed)."
Without the Bible I would have no true direction in my life. Anyone not following the Bible is on the road to hell. They are are a slave to the Devil and are being constantly influenced by him. If you are not following the Bilbe you are following something. If your sole authority is yourself, what kind of measuring rod is that? What is your hope in? How do you know you are right? The point is that you do not. You have no absolute authority. God and his Word are the only absolute authority...anything else is purly opinion.