 |
|
|
|
|
May 31st, 2012
05:17 AM ET
Church videos with harsh words for gays go viral onlineBy Richard Allen Greene and Dan Gilgoff, CNN First it was a Christian pastor in North Carolina who told his congregation on Mother's Day that the way "to get rid of all the lesbians and queers" was to put them behind an electric fence and wait for them to die out. That video went viral, fetching more than a million views on YouTube. On Sunday, Pastor Curtis Knapp of Kansas preached that the government should kill homosexuals, in another videotaped sermon that drew lots of online attention. "They won't, but they should," Knapp said, according to a recording of his sermon posted online. Since that sermon, another church video with harsh words for gays has caught fire online. This one shows a young boy singing an anti-gay song while the congregation cheers him on in what appears to be a church in Indiana. "I know the Bible’s right, somebody’s wrong,” the boy sings near the pulpit of a church. “Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven." As the boy repeats the line “Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven," congregants from the pews rise and cheer. The video, which was anonymously posted online and has received more than 300,000 views on YouTube, appears to show a service at the Apostolic Truth Tabernacle Church in Greensburg, Indiana. Calls to the church this week went to voicemail, with an automatic message saying the mailbox is full. But a message posted on the church’s website on Wednesday appears to address the controversy, offering no apology for the video. “The Pastor and members of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason. We believe and hope that every person can find true Bible salvation and the mercy and grace of God in their lives,” the statement says. “We are a strong advocate of the family unit according to the teachings and precepts found in the Holy Bible,” said the statement, which did not explicitly refer to the video or mention homosexuality. “We believe the Holy Bible is the Divinely-inspired Word of God and we will continue to uphold and preach that which is found in scripture.” The viral videos have drawn criticism from gay and lesbian groups and their allies. Charles Worley’s sermon at Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, North Carolina, sparked a protest that drew more than 1,500 people last weekend. In Kansas, Knapp's voicemail at the New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca was filled with messages saying "things you don't want your kids to hear," he told CNN affiliate KTKA. An official with the Kansas-Nebraska Convention of Southern Baptists issued a statement to CNN on Thursday saying that Knapp’s church had left the Southern Baptist fold in 2010. “Obviously, he has taken a radical and unbiblical stand in regards to homosexuality,” said Tim Boyd, communications director for the convention. “We look at homosexuals as we look at all sinners,” his statement said. “God loves them. Christ died for them. The Gospel calls them to repentance and salvation. Therefore, we as Christ-followers should hate the sin and love the sinner.” But Knapp is not backing away from his comments. "We punish pedophilia. We punish incest. We punish polygamy and various things. It's only homosexuality that is lifted out as an exemption," he said. He cited the Biblical verse Leviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They shall surely be put to death." But he said gay people had nothing to worry about from the government or from him. "I don't believe I should lay a finger against them," said Knapp, of New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas. "My hope is for their salvation, not for their death." Preaching against homosexuality the same day, another pastor appeared to wrestle with how conservative Christians should respond to proposals that people should literally mete out biblical punishments. "What about this guy down in North Carolina said build a big prison, a big fence and put them all in there and let them die out?" Dennis Leatherman asked in a sermon at the Mountain Lake Independent Baptist Church in Maryland. "Listen, I don't know that fellow. As far as I can tell, he seems like a decent guy, but he is dead wrong on that. That is not the scriptural response," Leatherman said in his sermon "Homosexuality & the Bible," according to a cached version of the transcript posted online. The audio of the sermon does not appear on his church's website. In the sermon, he floats the idea of killing homosexuals, whom he refers to as sodomites, then backs away from it. "There is a danger of reacting in the flesh, of responding not in a scriptural, spiritual way, but in a fleshly way. Kill them all. Right? I will be very honest with you. My flesh kind of likes that idea," Leatherman said. "But it grieves the Holy Spirit. It violates Scripture. It is wrong," he added immediately. The Southern Baptist Convention distanced itself from Worley's remarks. The nation's largest Baptist group said Providence Road Baptist in Maiden is not affiliated with its 16 million-member denomination and condemned the comments. But the influential head of the giant movement's seminary does argue that homosexuality "is the most pressing moral question of our times." In a comment piece for the Belief Blog in the wake of Worley's sermon, R. Albert Mohler Jr. dismissed critics who say conservative Christians focus on homosexuality while ignoring other things the Bible prohibits. He contends that laws about keeping kosher, for example, do not apply to Christians, while commandments about homosexuality do. "When it comes to homosexuality, the Bible's teaching is consistent, pervasive, uniform and set within a larger context of law and Gospel," he wrote. "Christians who are seriously committed to the authority of the Bible have no choice but to affirm all that the Bible teaches, including its condemnation of homosexuality," he said. A member of Worley's 300-member church defended him in an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper. "Of course he would never want that to be done," Stacey Pritchard said of the proposal to put homosexuals behind a fence and leave them there to die out. "But I agree with what the sermon was and what it was about." CNN Belief Blog co-editor Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report. soundoff (4,073 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 Next »
« Previous entryBelief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Thursday, May 31
|
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
|
|
|
daily routine: come to work read about crazies, comment about how crazy the crazies are, go home try to avoid crazies..................does that make me crazy? ROFLMFAO.
i love how religious folks always comment on how atheists bother getting on a belief blog and having their go rounds with the theists; hell i'm not going to lie i do it for fun. i grew up in a religious family and over the years figured out that it made no logical sence what's so ever. the other curious thing is when theists go after the atheists over our knowledge of scripture, most atheists were once theists so we would have some idea of scripture like you all however with the onslaught of attacks from religious folks in the real world when they discover we're not "one of them" has the same effect as the villian in the comics unwittingly creating the superhero. religious attacks cause us to require better information to defend our choice to live a life free of religion. so i enjoy getting on here and seeing what's new and if there's any new angle the "believers" are coming at us "non-believers".
Thanks for letting eveyong know who and why you are LOL
Hebrews 12:15
Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.
"Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many."
That does fit so many in your cult today now doesn't it especially this guy the article is about. LMAO!
@WOW: yeah i'm proud of who i am. why should i be ashamed? i accept all people as human regardless of race, creed, national origin or se-xual orientation. i'm an avid believer in the power of the human mind to over come most problems whether they are man vs. nature, man vs. man or man vs. the supernatural......we can conquer most obsticules placed in our path. none of that has anything to do with having the favor of a god(s) we can achieve all this ourselves. i have had a theist once say to me " how can you not believe in god look around you." i told them in reply " all i see is what man has created, nothing has a god made this stamp on it" they just scratched their head and walked off. so yes i will and have yelled into the night" i will not go peacefully into the night! i will be live the way i see fit and when the time comes i will kick deaths ass so when he comes for me he remembers my name!" ROFLMFAO.
I was believed as many folks here seem to, that we are born sinful, that there is nothing we can do that will ever make us "good" enough for God.
I hated myself, I hated the "sin" of my being that stained me so completely that the God I loved would have none of me. I hated others too.
That core belief of Christianity is among the reasons I eventually left Christianity behind. My beliefs about Deity are complex, and my approach to spirituality is mine alone, but among the things I know from experience is that fear and hatred breed only more fear and more hatred.
Compassion and love, on the other hand, breed patience and understanding, humility and acceptance, and yes, more compassion and more love.
In my opinion, I would rather the fruits of my life be compassion, love, patience and understanding, not hatred, fear and anger.
That should be "I once believed"...silly voice reco-gni-tion soft-ware is very gli-tchy this morning!
@myweightinwords
I guess, you once belonged the realm of the Free Churches, which reduce the gospel a mathematical formula:
We are sinners. Accept Jesus, get saved.
This is too primitive: Sinners + Jesus = Saved, although it includes an element of truth.
The reality is that our primal father Adam left his blissful state in God's presence. What nobody can understand and possibly nobody will ever understand is why Adam left God's presence. God's presence means absolute joy and happiness and peace, because God is The Life and The Light and The Peace himself. God made the animals and Eve for Adam, in order to prove his friendship, which was the primal gospel. Yet, Adam did not regard that and eventually obeyed and submitted the powers of death. Adam forsake God voluntarily without any reason or pressure of sorrow. Adam degenerated voluntarily, which was a calamity. As if a queen becomes a gang leader.
By forsaking God, the source of Life, Adam had to perish, of course. Adam degenerated a being, ruled by the powers of death. Adam became a sinner. It is important to consider that actually Adam did not become a sinner through the Fall, but by his voluntary alienation from God, which peaked in the Fall. By the Fall the alienation of Adam from God got sealed (Adam was baptized into the death).
Imagine a fairy tale: A child leaves the lighted house of his mother and enters a dark forest. This is not yet deadly, but can lead to death. In the dark forest the child encounters a wolf ... . Better the child had not left the lighted house of his mother.
The basic problem of Adam was that he at first forsake God, which was his friend. Outside God's community Adam was not strong enough to resist Satan's seduction and the Fall occured.
We are biological descendants of Adam and have biologically inherited his sinful nature and his inclination to forsake God. These are two things. Even if we would get impressed by the Creation and try to return to God, it would not work, because we are degenerated by birth like Adam since the Fall. Not only our atti-tude must get repaired, but our whole essence.
Hence, God gave us a second revelation of his love, a perfect gospel:
God delivered himself for our sins and resurrected from the dead for our justification. This all he did in the person of Jesus Christ, God, the Son.
If we believe that God is that loveable that he gave his Son or himself for us, we return into the confident community with God, the Creator, which our primal father has left. By the gospel the Fall get nullified for us. Faith in the gospel is the reversion of the Fall.
Yet, we are such hopeless sinners in ourselves that we need a person of the Godhead, the Spirit, to dwell in us and to overcome our sinful body, which is completely damned. It even cannot really believe. This is the first gift of sacramental baptism that we get metaphysically connected with Christ's death and resurrection. We die for the sin and enter Christ at baptism. Daily we invite Christ to rule us and to bring to life our bodies, which are dead in themselves.
This is the mystery of faith (I am a Protestant).
@Rainer Yo – Dude you have some really poor reading comprehension skills she wrote:
"That core belief of Christianity is among the reasons I eventually left Christianity behind."
Duh she doesn't need your long winded preaching at her. Many of us here are former Christians that now know it's just a cult that breeds intolerance and delusion. It's so strange when you step back and read what you wrote how truly insane what you posted reads. There's no proof of Adam and Eve, there is no proof of your god, there is no proof that Christ was a son of a god, there is no proof the miracles really happened. Almost all religions rely on miracles as their selling point, then they also rely of using fear to sell their product. If you don't believe you'll burn in eternity of hell. That's not the way a true loving person would act nor should it be for a god. OH...that's right, it's all a man made concept created for peoples imaginations.
@Rainer,
In order for any of your comment to have meaning to me, I would first have to accept that ANYTHING is capable of removing the Divine from that which it has created. I would have to accept that the biblical story of creation is true. I would have to accept that the stain of sin can be passed into the next generation. I would have to accept that belief alone is capable of accomplishing this.
The very notion of subst.itutionary atonement is abhorrent to me. If it were possible to DO something that would remove me from the Divine, only I am capable of paying the price for that. Only I am capable of repairing that relationship. The idea that any Deity that I would serve would demand BLOOD as payment is disgusting and immoral, let alone that he would require an innocent life in payment.
Your premise is flawed from the beginning.
myweightinwords wrote, “The idea that any Deity that I would serve would demand BLOOD as payment is disgusting and immoral, let alone that he would require an innocent life in payment.”
This is the wrath and judgment of God. Would you respect a God who would let you do anything with no consequences? What could be a better example of God’s love than to show us how blessed we are, not to get what we deserve?
Through faith in our saviour we know our sins are forever hidden from God and we are fully reconciled to him and loved by him.
"This is the wrath and judgment of God. Would you respect a God who would let you do anything with no consequences? What could be a better example of God’s love than to show us how blessed we are, not to get what we deserve?
Through faith in our saviour we know our sins are forever hidden from God and we are fully reconciled to him and loved by him."
Ok now that was funny talk about contradicting yourself. LOL!
"Would you respect a God who would let you do anything with no consequences? " Through faith in our saviour we know our sins are forever hidden from God and we are fully reconciled to him and loved by him."
Duh....supposedly through your Christ you are without consequences now...so now go back to your first sentence. LMAO! Your god could have done all of it without torturing and killing an innocent life....LMAO! Oh...that's right men wrote the book and this Christ was not the son of a god since your god doesn't exist. LOL!
@Robert,
This is the wrath and judgment of God.
Wrath over what exactly? What can a new born infant possibly have thought, said or done that is worthy of wrath? Indeed, what possible mortal act should anger an immortal, all knowing God? Particularly when said God created that mortal, knowing his/her whole life before he/she was born?
Would you respect a God who would let you do anything with no consequences?
I would respect a god who offers clear instruction, clear consequences and does not change his mind a few thousand years in and change everything. I would respect a god does not expect his creation to be more moral than he himself is. I would respect a god who expects me to work and make myself a better person daily.
The Christian god, as presented in the bible, is none of these.
What could be a better example of God’s love than to show us how blessed we are, not to get what we deserve?
It is this twisted logic I find most disgusting. Would we honor a mortal father who uses the beating of a child to show another child what it deserves? Would we honor a mortal father who demanded that his child's wrong doings be punished by whipping another child?
When you compound that by claiming that we sin merely through breathing air, for being as we were born to be, and that as such we deserve eternal torment? I find that abhorrent.
Through faith in our saviour we know our sins are forever hidden from God and we are fully reconciled to him and loved by him.
I feel sorry for those who must don the mantle of blood to be loved by their gods. Mine accept me as I am. Faults and all.
YeahRight,
These are your thoughts, today. I am hopeful that the day will come when you will have the opportunity, through grace, to make a choice that will change your thoughts.
Ti.tus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
@YeahRight
2000 years ago God visited the earth in the person of Jesus. Jesus proved his divinity by the miracles, which he wrought in light of many witnesses. Beside Jesus was predicted by the prophets of the Old Testament. Jesus continued the history of God's Chosen people. He did not invent something new, but in a way was simple a "real Jew" according to God intentions. In Romans a good Christian is called a Jew by St. Paul.
Jesus, did not rush into history like Muhammad, Jospeh Smith or any other incarnated devils, which had no connection with God's traditional, legitimate religion, but Jesus fit well into the history of mankind and God's Chosen People.
Jesus had got the same Spirit like David and his life was ruled by the Spirit up the his death and resurrection.
The man Jesus could have forsaken God, facing infinite suffering and rejection, which we cannot imagine. It is the miracles of all miracles that Jesus, the carpenter, remained with God, despite infinite sorrow. Jesus is the firstborn of a new mankind, which will always remain with God in contrast to us and Adam, who has forsaken God voluntaril without pressure of sorrow. A mankind in God.
The resurrection is the clear proof that Jesus did not die for own sins, but for our sins. By the resurrection God confirmed the divine sonship of Jesus Christ for ever.
What a load of crap so did other pagan gods and they were bogus too. By the way this has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we now know and understand about gays today. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Jesus never existed; there is absolutely no evidence of his existence (except the Christian bible) anywhere. No arrest record, contemporaneous writing by anyone, nothing. In fact the Jewish people in scripture were warned about false prophets and the “Jesus” one was just one of hundreds of “messiahs” running around at the time. All were false. In fact almost everything that he was supposed to have done would have proof of it.
I've always found the "chosen people" thing scary. God created everyone, but had favorites whom he allowed to maim and kill the less favored.
What loving parent plays that hideous game with their own children?
Christians and pastors are to teach and correct their Christian brothers and sisters with love and understanding. “But we don’t believe the same thing you believe.” Why do you think there are so many denominations? Who is right? I take a fairly literal approach to the bible so I believe it is sin. Jesus said, “judge not” so I don’t. If you believe it is sin then don’t do it. Leave judgment, condemnation, and forgiveness to God.
Christians should not try to correct LGBT people who do not believe in God. Not because they are LGBT, just because they are nonbelievers.
We are to share the good news of Jesus with nonbelievers. How, as a believer, can you correct someone who doesn’t believe in God? You can’t, but if God, through grace, impresses upon a person’s heart that what they are doing is wrong, then they are under his conviction, and through faith they can be saved and forgiven.
And part of the "Good News" for LGBT people is that what they are is sinful?
Also, you are qualifying your "belief in God", one that includes a sanction against being a practicing gay, as the only correct way to believe in God. By what means do you claim this right?
Don't waste your time with Robert. Like Rainer, he is a total whack.
Cq,
The good news is not that lgbt folks are sinful. The good news is that Jesus saves. Regardless of what you define as sin we are all sinners in the eyes of God. God cannot look on sin, but thank God, through Jesus we can be reconciled to him.
I am not qualifying my belief in God with anything. I do believe what God said is sin, is sin. I also believe that we all sin, whether in thought or deed, daily. But thank God that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive.
If you mean by authority, the source of what I believe, then the answer is God's word.
@Robert Brown – It doesn't make sense why we're all born 'sinners'. God's perfect, but he makes an inperfect product, then turns around and criticizes it for not being perfect like him? Sounds strange.
"The good news is not that lgbt folks are sinful. The good news is that Jesus saves. "
The experts have shown that you can't "cure" a gay person because part of it is biological.
@Robert Brown
According to Romans 6, 7, 8 the body of the Christian gets not redeemed, not even by sacramental baptism.
In Romans 7 St. Paul speaks of himself as a terrible sinner breaking God's law. He simply means his sinful body, which is part of his whole personality even after conversion.
By our sinful body we (the Christians) remain connected with all our fellow human beings, which have not yet received the Spirit of God and hence are fully ruled by the body. We as Christians are sinners, regarding our sinful body, but bottom line we are righteous in work and deed in daily life, because the Spirit, which dwells in us, is stronger than our sin (Romans 8) and causes real works of love and righteousness.
We as Christians should daily invite Christ or the Spirit to rule us (or our body). We fully depend on Christ that he may bring to life our dead bodies (dead in sin).
"We as Christians should daily invite Christ or the Spirit to rule us (or our body). We fully depend on Christ that he may bring to life our dead bodies (dead in sin)."
Again the experts have shown that part of being gay is biological and it can't be "cured." The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
AverageJoe76,
Yes, it does sound strange. God created beings in his image or likeness. Which I take to mean we are similar in some respects to God but not carbon copies. Yet we are not like him in others. He is perfect, we are fallible. He is the creator, we are the creation. Are we only similar to him in the spirit that he places in us?
There is a lot of debate on freewill, predestination, and etc. Not to mention several other subjects. When it comes right down to it, does it matter who is correct? I certainly do not have the answers but I am acquainted with the one who does. If God chooses to reveal those things to me now, later, or never, it will be ok. My personal experience with God leads me to believe that if we have a choice then you would have to have way more self-control than I do to resist him.
Robert Brown & AverageJoe76
If "sin" can be equated to causing harm to others and ourself then we can be said to have been born with this ability, but the underlying question, Robert, is whether or not being gay causes harm. The human writers of scripture certainly though so, and they also thought God felt this way too, but does it "make sense?" Who does it harm what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, and why would it be logical to hold some to a different standard of public behavior?
Rainer Braendlein,
I agree with you and think I understand the teachings of Paul as it relates to the flesh and the spirit. When we yield to the flesh we sin. When we allow the spirit to lead we are in fellowship with God. Paul explained the internal war between the spirit and flesh of a believer very well. He did things he didn’t want to do and couldn’t do things that he wanted to do.
"Paul explained the internal war between the spirit and flesh of a believer very well. He did things he didn’t want to do and couldn’t do things that he wanted to do."
The experts have shown that being gay is NOT a choice, it's not a mental illness and it CAN"T be voluntarily changed. Gay people are entitled to have long term loving relationships and families just like straight people. There are millions in these types of relationships now and all the want is their basic civil rights. These long term relationships have not harmed you or anyone else in society.
Cq,
Jesus reduced the law to love God and others as yourself. When we sin without harming others, we are still not loving God. So, we are harming our relationship with him.
I believe humans wrote the bible, yet I also believe they were inspired by God. It is God’s written word. If humans were the ultimate source wouldn’t it make sense to humans. God is a spirit. Humans are flesh and blood and God said flesh and blood cannot enter his kingdom. You have to have his spirit, not only to enter his kingdom, but also to understand his written word.
YeahRight
I believe that the misconception is that gay people are all involved in the kind of hedonistic $exual excesses that prudish people imagine they are all having. So, like all forms of bigotry, it's all comes down to demonizing all of these people as something that they, and many others, would consider wrong if straight people did it except that they would express a certain admiration for a straight guy having as many partners as the imagine all gay men have.
I think Madonna's song "What it feels like for a girl" hit on it exactly. Straight guys can understand girls wanting to dress a bit like them, and even being attracted to other pretty girls in the case of girl-on-girl action in p0rn, but they simply cannot understand how a guy could want to act a bit like a girl (effeminate), or be attracted to other guys. They think it's degrading because those are "female" behaviors. All of this comes from this male prejudice even the Bible verses which were written by men.
What magic confines a God to need a sacrafice to 'cleanse' the people? First God needed animals (burnt, mind you), and the smell was sweet to God. Oh, but wait..... God's going to send himself to Earth in human form, send angles to look over himself, and pray to himself while on Earth to his heavenly self, and call himself 'Father' to himself, then sacrafice himself, who is the 'Son' himself, all the while the 'Holy Ghost' is flying around as Himself. Now God's solved the touchy issues of needing live sacrafices so that his holy power meter doesn't run out of worship fuel. There's this, and numerous other reasons I'm agnostic.
AverageJoe76,
I have been a Christian for many years and I don’t think I could explain the Trinity adequately to you. Hopefully, someone on here will. Here is what little I know; God the father, God the son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit (comforter).
If you are agnostic then you already believe at the very least that there could be a God. If you believe there could be a God then you have some faith. The faith you have can be grown. According to God’s written word, faith comes by hearing the word of God preached in the power of his holy spirit.
My 'ideal' of God doesn't require me to worship God. I'm not sure if there IS a God. I believe whatever 'God' is, it's far beyond us, and our understanding. I don't believe God selects one group of people to spread the message, or even has rules to gain entrance into the great spiritual theme park called 'Heaven' (another uncertainty – but I understand the notion). Nor is there a 'H ell', with a boogeyman leading who's already lost.... (sigh). I think humans have placed an incredible burden on themselves believing they could imagine what such a being wants from us. It literally drove countless humans crazy, and the effects are still with us today.
AverageJoe76,
I would agree that God is far beyond our understanding or even comprehension. One of my favorite Old Testament chapters is Isaiah 55. In it, among many other things, God says his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways.
If you believe there could be a God, then in my humble opinion, you are on the right track, and God will do the rest. If you become acquainted with him you will understand more about things that bother you now and most of all that his burden is light.
Decades ago, my father retired in hateful North Carolina. I saw plenty of hateful Jesse Helms. During my miserable time in NC, I learned the horrible depth of their mean hatred. I grew to finally say, "I hate Christians back as much as they hate me!"
Proving yet again that hatred begets nothing but more hatred.
Yes, hatred begets more hatred. After misery and hatred at the hands of hateful Christians (concrete examples can be provided) for over five decades, I have nothing but loathing to return to those mean viscous Christians.
Which will only, in turn, create a new level of hatred in return.
You perpetuate the cycle.
The cycle started and continues with hateful Christians. They continue to throw vile rhetoric and try to use government to stomp us. It is easy to wax philosophical, but there is also an emotional base in being human. When the persecuted rise against their persecutors, they are reacting to the continuous hurt given out by hateful Christians.
Nothing philosophical or poetic about it, until we learn to rise above the hatred and let ourselves feel compassion in it's place, hatred will continue to rule.
One need not spew hatred to stand up for what is right.
Why did the creator of an entire universe (all that exsists – EVERYTHING) ......have a 'choosen people'? Just a select group of people out of many on Earth? Now, whoever came up with that hooey was vain. It's like saying this is the one 'choosen fish' out of the entire ocean. Really? This, and countless other arguments are why people are pulling away from these ancient textbooks. Their Gods make no sense at all.
The "chosen people" were merely to be ones who followed G-d’s law. No one else has too except them. By their mere existence he would be known to exist. That’s all chosen means.
@WASP
You did not get me. Although I know that every persistent sinner will finally end up in hell, I shall handle him like a brother (this, of course, does not mean that I conceal the truth) as long as we live on earth.
I could really imagine to take a walk with a gay or to share a hobby with him (hunting or biology or painting, etc.). I even would not try to convert him, but just to be his kind neighbour. I could also tolerate a gay workmate or neighbour, etc..
For example, I have got a Muslim workmate (Islam is a sin like gayness in Christian eyes) and nevertheless I want to establish a friendship with him. He, in contrast, cannot require me to deny the divine sonship of Jesus Christ. That would finish our friendship.
As long as we live on earth, there is a time of Grace. Christians should represent that Grace, with the boundaries that Grace cannot be practiced on the cost of truth.
For example, assumed I would invite my Muslim workmate for dinner, he had to accept a cross on the wall or a Bible on the table and some beer in the refrigerator. I would not accept my Muslim workmate to remove my cross from my wall. That would quite disturb our friendship.
"(this, of course, does not mean that I conceal the truth) "
The point is you don't understand the REAL truth. There are gay churches, gay clergy and many pastors, nuns and rabbis that have gone on record stating that being gay as we know and understand it today is NOT a sin. You also refuse to believe the hundred of thousands of experts that have shown that what was written in the past about gays were done by bias and prejudice people and that includes your bible. Are you also going to take on Paul's anitsemtic prejudices too? LMAO! The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
"I could also tolerate a gay workmate or neighbour, etc.."
How very magnanimous of you.
/sarcasm
@YeahRight
There have always been many wolves in sheep's clothing. And when the whole mankind consists of wolves, maybe The Wicked is at hand.
Based on the bigotry that oozes out of every sentence you wrote, I think it is very safe to say that no gay person would ever want you as a friend. Nor Muslim. Nor sane person. You have nothing to offer but mentally unstable bigotry and freakish religion.
Hunting? You actually think a gay man would want to be around you when you are toting a gun?
Do you have any idea what a weird person you are?
"Hunting? You actually think a gay man would want to be around you when you are toting a gun?"
As long as they're armed too...
ps what's with the inherent se.xism women hunt too, ya know.
"There have always been many wolves in sheep's clothing. And when the whole mankind consists of wolves, maybe The Wicked is at hand."
Just another stupid excuse because the experts have proven you are nothing more than a prejudice bigot who wants to continue to fuel the hatred towards this group. They have proven that being gay is NOT a mental illness, it's NOT a choice and it can't be voluntarily changed. By the way couldn't your god be using those organization to show that gays have been misunderstood throughout history since people tend to fear what they don't understand. Duh!
@Yuck
Even if I had got a gun, a gay man could feel totally safe in my presence. Nice idea.
Even without a gun, a gay person would want to get the hell away from you. You clearly have no idea what a bigotted freak you are.
I had opportunity recently to witness the reunion of a gay man in his forties with the father that had once called on three of his friends to beat the gayness out of him. The incident happened when Steve was in his early 20s and had been "caught" by his father kissing another man. The four men took Steve out to a meadow in the middle of the night and beat him, telling him it was what he deserved, that he was sick, perverted, dirty, that God hated him and wanted him to die. They hit him with fists and kicked him with their feet. They used tree branches to sodomize him to show him that such things were not normal. And then they left him there to find his own way home.
Steve never went home. Not until this week.
His father has spent the last ten years looking for him. Some time after the incident he began to doubt that what he'd done was right. He'd prayed and searched his scriptures, and he eventually came to the conclusion that he was the sinner, that he was the one who was dirty and perverted. When he spoke of this change of heart from the pulpit of the church he had been pastor of for 20 years, he was asked to leave.
I was one of several people involved in bringing the two of them together, after counseling on both sides. I held Steve's hand while his father fell to his knees, crying and begging him for forgiveness. It was truly one of the most amazing moments I have ever witnessed in all of my years. I pray that all who hate will one day realize the price their hatred demands is simply not worth it.
Hello,
which church do you belong to?
@Ranier,
While I don't think that it has any bearing on what I said, I don't "belong" to any church. I am Pagan, and my calling is to shamanic healing practices that deal primarily with emotional and spiritual trauma.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Gay Bashers, apparently.
Why would anyone participate in bringing such an evil abusive father back into the life of the son? Your priorities are all wrong. You did it for the sake of the perpetrator.
Yuck, actually, I was there at the request of the son, not the father. It was his decision to meet with him after a lot of thought and soul-searching.
I have been working with Steve for almost a year, helping him heal.
Okay, fair enough, I retract.
Did you consider that maybe it would not be a good idea to reunite? I personally have seen these things attempted (though not as severe a situation as yours), and it only seemed to go well in the beginning. While people wanted healing, the more often got tension, frustration, disappointment, and a LOT of stress.
@Yuck,
It has been a long process to get to this point. Part of that process has included several long talks with the father before this meeting. While I doubt they will ever be best friends or anything, they both seem to be willing to work at finding some common ground.
We have two more scheduled meetings before the father goes home to Kansas and both will be with one of us there. The father's remorse and change of heart seem genuine, and in my conversations with him I have been impressed by his candor and openness.
@Yuck
What is bigotry?
I guess, if someone loves only people of his own religion or people, which he want to convert.
I myself love everybody independent from belief, nationality, colour, social status, etc.. By birth I am bigoted too, but Christ dwells in me by his Spirit since I refer to my infant baptism and causes love and grace.
myweightinwords,
Excellent story. No matter how it eventually turns out - a happy-ever-after or a thud - these guys will not have to spend the rest of their lives thinking, "What If". I wish them (and you) well.
From the Christian Church (all churches together, which keep the one holy sacramental baptism and teach that baptism is a call for discipleship or the gateway to a Christian life):
The Christian Church does not want the death of the sinner, but his physical health and soul's health. Also God himself, does not want the death of the sinner, but his complete salvation.
The Sermon on the Mount makes it clear, how God (Jesus) wants us to handle people, which don't want to accept the gospel and want to continue to sin (for example gayness). In a word: we still shall love the sinners, even if they don't want to accept the gospel. We shall not repeat the great mistake of the leaders of Israel (the Scribes and the Pharisees), which were angry with their own people, insulted them, cursed them, but love the ordinary people. Every human being, which is angry, insults and curses will end up in prison and bankrupt, because these are prestages of murder (Jesus says that).
By loving the ordinary people we (the Christians) underline the message of the gospel that God delivered his Son for our sins and raised him from the dead for our justification, which is a message of infinite love.
Every true Christian is always aware of his sinful body, which is able to commit every sin, when it/he is not under control of the Holy Spirit, which is stronger than our sinfulness. We can overcome our sinfulness only by the power of Jesus' death and resurrection, which was dedicated to us at sacramental baptism. Through baptism we are dead for the sin and in Christ, which uses our body, which is sinful in itself, to do works of love and righteousness. Hence, no Christian has a right to be proud on his righteousness and love, but should praise God, who does such wonderful works in him. Let us cast our crowns before Him, if we have deserved a crown.
Hence, dearly beloved gays, don't you want to get released from your malady by Jesus Christ, the Son of God? He wants to set you free. He can heal/cure and release you. Ain't that a message of great joy, happyness and hope?
Jesus died for you, so that you don't have to die, but are allowed to live. God delivered himself for you in the person of the Son. Please draw the right conclusions.
Dear gay, at Judgement Day all people will be judged according to their works. All people, which have continued to sin, despite the knowledge of God's releasing gospel (which is also a gospel of atonement), will get damned for the real sins, which they really committed.
Gayness is a clear proof that you don't love God and confide him that he will give you a fitting wife in due course. If you would confide God, you would live in abstinence until marriage. Hence, you, dear gay, cannot be in a state of salvation, because you don't trust God, and thus don't love him, which is the first commandment. God is that kind that he actually wants to give you a very good wife. You, in contrast, take a man, which means that you have become mad and totally forsaken God's loving friendship.
Yet, get reconciled with God by the gospel.:God delivered his Son for your sins and raised him from the dead for your justification. Believe that and get baptized and return into the confident community with the Lord, the eternal God, which has made heaven and earth. In his presence you can experience a love, which gives you real peace and pleasure. God offers friendship. He proves his love by the gospel. Believe that God wants to be your personal friend and will cure your whole life (spiritually and physically).
Every socalled Christian, which requires the physical death of the gays, cannot be a real Christian and is not led by the Holy Spirit.
The only sanction by the Church against gays is that they cannot be allowed to be church members, because the Church is the community of people, which are reconciled with God. Someone, who is reconciled with God, will not practice gayness.
Rainer, don’t obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Save the primates for the storm. In the event that you represent several horses, try to remain clarified while spinning. You can look at the example of the geese in the tunnel when ramping. Among the pipes there are. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent.Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators and don’t dote on the pancreas.
Never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.
We should not equate modern peoples with God's Chosen People Israel, which was not only a worldly people, but also a spritual people. Of cours, Israel should stone gays, but only after a long time of admonition. The gays should get opportunity to repent and to live.
The equivaltent to this stoning by ancient Israel is the exclusion from the Church (the spiritual Israel) today, which can also cause the physical death (worst case) of the sinner, which does not want to repent. Of course, the Church has no right to kill directly persistent sinners.
The only sanction against gays by the Church is the exclusion from the Church, which is the place of Life and Peace. Outside the place of Life and Peace is, of course, death and destruction and one should really ponder, if he wants to experience that.
Rainer, don’t obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Save the primates for the storm. In the event that you represent several horses, try to remain clarified while spinning. Green submarine. You can look at the example of the geese in the tunnel when ramping. Among the pipes there are. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent.Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators and don’t dote on the pancreas.
Never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.
@rainier: hello again long time no see. now on to the fun. people don't practice "gayness" lol i love invented words. there are thousands upon thousands of lbgt that attend church or some form of religious sermon, so wrong on that point. many lgbt have relationships with "god" so wrong on that point....from their point of view god views you folks that hate gays as being "unchristian". there is no need to judge anyone of anything, seeing christians aren't allowed to judge; so thus by telling anyone that doesn't follow your idea of the correct way to live that they "are going to need to get right with god" or the ever so famous " you're going to burn in hell" speeches you are thus breaking one of "gods'" commands and all sin is equal in his eyes so we'll be seeing you in hell. lmfao
Fortunately, not everyone believes as you do. There are churches that are very accepting of gays already and, for many others, there is also the option of dropping out of Christianity altogether, right?
"Gayness is a clear proof that you don't love God and confide him that he will give you a fitting wife in due course. "
It's stupid uneducated comments like this from the Christians that fuel the bigotry towards this minority group. The experts around the world have shown that being gay is NOT a choice, it is not a mental illness and it can't be voluntarily changed. There is a biological component to being gay that CAN"T be changed. DUUUHHHHH! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
@YeahRight
God is still the highest authority on earth (he dwells in his Church, which is the new Temple). He betters all ridiculous human organizations.
"God is still the highest authority on earth (he dwells in his Church, which is the new Temple). He betters all ridiculous human organizations."
Yeah that is the stupid excuse you have to use because they have proven you are nothing more than a prejudice bigot. They have proven that being gay is NOT a mental illness, it's NOT a choice and it can't be voluntarily changed. By the way couldn't your god be using those organization to show that gays have been misunderstood throughout history since people tend to fear what they don't understand. Duh!
@YeahRight
Jesus loves you and even me.
Is that bigotry?
"Jesus loves you and even me.
Is that bigotry?"
What is bigotry is your uneducated comments about gay people.because of your stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from your own.
Rainer Braendlein
In your analogy, a "parent" would indeed love all of his children equally, but what you have here is the case of some of his children telling the others that he disapproves of them because they happened to born a certain way. You may think that this is God's judgment, but let us not forget that it's the judgmental children who wrote the Bible, linking these ideas to God, right?
If, say, a father dies and most of siblings all gang together to tell rest that he actually didn't approve of them, and all they had was their word on this, would you blame the smaller group of being skeptical?
Comments on this page right now: Over 3000. Comments on next article about child abuse scandal in the church: just over 300. So apparently consenting adults engaging in sodomy is 10 times more important than children being sodomized unconsentually.
One of the articles was posted first thing in the morning yesterday, and the other one at the end of the day Einstein.
Also, this article is not about sodomy. It's about murdering innocent people.
Perhaps it is because NO ONE is going to argue that priests molesting kids is okay. Kinda hard to have a debate when everyone is on the same side. See the difference?
That's called selective sampling or selection bias.
There are currently, I think, 5 articles on the first page of Belief Blog about the RCC and related scandals. Picking two and correlating to importance is bad logic.
ps There is a huge effect when CNN decide, who knows how, to post a Belief Blog article on the main CNN page. 100's of responses in a matter of minutes.
My use of statistics is terrible this morning, but I guess it should just be noted the lack of outrage over what goes on in the Catholic church. Of course that is old news, so who cares, right? I would think Christians would be concerned about other Christians making them look bad instead of anti gay rants on an article about crazy preachers. But what do I know My first mistake this morning was attempting to use the info gathered on these boards for any purpose.
P.S. Today starts LGBT pride month.
@Jack,
Everything is way out of proportion on these Blogs, good and bad, or so it seems to me. Also, I would say that many of the posters on the RCC Abuse article might disagree. They seem/claim to think that CNN is on a "crusade" to destroy the RCC. All in the point of view, I guess.
Repost with one more reference.
Does what Worley and Knapp say sound familiar? It should!
Check out the following,
http://calpol25.hubpages.com/hub/Ho m os exuals-The-Forgotten-Victims-Of-The-Nazis
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/ho mosx.htm
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/victims.htm
http://www.pink-triangle.org/
http://travelsofadam.com/2012/03/gay-holocaust-memorial-berlin/
Obvious note, obvious to most anyway, delete the spaces then paste the link in your browser to find out how similar these religious people are to people like Heinrich Himmler in 1930's Germany
P.S.:
Whoever is praying for all those tornados in the buckle of the bible belt, please stop.
Repost with expanded references.
Does what Worley and Knapp say sound familiar? It should!
Check out the following,
http://calpol25.hubpages.com/hub/Ho m os exuals-The-Forgotten-Victims-Of-The-Nazis
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/ho mosx.htm
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/victims.htm
http://www.pink-triangle.org/
Obvious note, obvious to most anyway, delete the spaces then paste the link in your browser to find out how similar these religious people are to people like Heinrich Himmler in 1930's Germany
P.S.:
Whoever is praying for all those tornados in the buckle of the bible belt, please stop.
Does what Worley and Knapp say sound familiar? It should!
Check out the following,
http://calpol25.hubpages.com/hub/Ho m os exuals-The-Forgotten-Victims-Of-The-Nazis
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/ho mosx.htm
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/victims.htm
Obvious note, obvious to most anyway, delete the spaces then paste the link in your browser to find out how similar these religious people are to people like Heinrich Himmler in 1930's Germany
P.S.:
Whoever is praying for all those tornados in the buckle of the bible belt, please stop.
ONLY FOR THE NEW MEMBERS OF THIS BLOG:
o "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.
1. The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "
2. "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
3. See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”
Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions supposedly abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-se-x marriages.
From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, ga-y s-exual activity is still mutual mas-turbation caused by one or more complex s-exual differences. Some differences are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell.
As noted, there are basic biological differences in gay unions vs. heterose-xual marriage. Government benefits are the same in both but making the distinction is important for census data and for social responses with respect to potential issues with disease, divorce and family interactions.
========================================================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Best license plate I ever saw: SIN H8R
Best license plate ... DVL-666 just to get a reaction from you.
@Mirosal,
Direct yes or no questions
Did you actually see that plate?
Or did you make that up?
MY personalized plate. I had to fight to get it, but I got it.
@Mirosal,
Cool! Good for you.
I tried to get AIRGSM (I am a recreational skydiver), but the state of Michigan would not allow it. Nor anything resembling it.
If I drove, I'd go for "L0G 1CL"
@Kristine,
Perhaps the owner of that plate should look up the sin of pride.
And wishing that people should be killed is a sin, right?
The pragmatist turns away from abstraction and insufficiency, from verbal solutions, from bad a priori reasons, from fixed principles, closed systems, and pretended absolutes and origins. He turns toward concreteness and adequacy, towards facts, towards action, and towards power."
Your statement is as contradic'tory as the big book of fairy tales.
@Mirosal,
So you admit that the bible is a big book of fairy tales?
Sorry Mirosal this was meant for someone else.
There are still people who ask what is wrong with religion.
Wouldn't the answers be obvious?
With articles like this it should be obvious.
None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Isaiah 59:4
If anyone is vain, it's YOU, "heaven sent". You are the one who apparently agrees with these idiots and wants to willingly discriminate against a group of people simply because they aren't like you. You are not only vain, you're a textbook definition of arrogant as well. Is your only come-back going to be just lines from an archaic book written for a society that no longer exists?
@heavensent
You're a pious pig!
Mirosal, why don't you search the pastor's church site. There are many sermons that you can listen to and learn Jesus' wisdom ... instead of being a pompous vain jerk, believing you know something about life, to find out you know nothing but your vain imagination.
Let's see ... do I prefer folks that learn Jesus' wisdom, comprehend and apply His teachings to their lives to provide righteous outcomes, or do I endure being around pompous, superficial jerks, who know nothing, lie and assume they don't and produce unrighteous outcomes?
Wink wink. Stop being lazy.
I have no use for this person's hate-filled rants about ga'ys and others who are not like him. I have no need to hear about how his "god" will condemn almost the entire planet because he says so. Thank you for showing who YOU really are. Just another whack-job hiding under the guise of a "righteous" person. Did your swastika tattoo hurt much when you got it?
@HS=HB: regardless of your opinion on how the world should work; regardless of you passing judgement upon anyone not of your faith; regardless of your blind hate and ignorance............you will eventually die and the world will not even notice. while you were doing nothing but praying to a figment of your imagination your whole life others were out trying to make the world a better place. while you sit and listen to hate being spewed from the mouth of the ignorant, others were trying to care for one another, while you were busy telling everyone they're going to hell, you forgot to do such you are walking down the same road.............so just for sh!ts and giggles if god is real, i'll keep a seat warm for you in hell. ROFLMFAO.
Fact – before Jesus, everyone thought the Earth was flat.
Fact – after Jesus died, everyone still thought the Earth was flat.
So much for "Jesus' wisdom". Just a normal guy who has been dead for over 2,000 years. Time to move on!
HeavenSent
Nothing "vain" about thinking that the most perfect being imaginable created you in it's image, I suppose?
We can know God only through His works. We cannot have a con-ception of any one attribute but by following some principle that leads to it. We have only a confused idea of His power, if we have not the means of comprehending something of its immensity. We can have no idea of His wisdom, but by knowing the order and manner in which it acts. The principles of science lead to this knowledge; for the Creator of man is the Creator of science, and it is through that medium that man can see God, as it were, face to face."
We can know God only through His works. We cannot have a conception of any one attribute but by following some principle that leads to it. We have only a confused idea of His power, if we have not the means of comprehending something of its immensity. We can have no idea of His wisdom, but by knowing the order and manner in which it acts. The principles of science lead to this knowledge; for the Creator of man is the Creator of science, and it is through that medium that man can see God, as it were, face to face."
The only "creator of man" that science has yet identified is the natural, unintelligent processes that led to the development of the universe and life on this planet. Show me any "science" that says otherwise.