June 4th, 2012
05:43 PM ET
We don't teach hate, says church where anti-homosexual song filmed
By Ismael Estrada, CNN
Greensburg, Indiana (CNN) - About 20 protesters gathered on Sunday outside the Apostolic Truth Tabernacle here to voice opposition to a viral online video that was taped in the church and shows a young child singing song with lyrics that offer a harsh message for homosexuals.
The video, which surfaced on YouTube last week, shows a child in front of the congregation, singing "I know that God is right, and somebody's wrong... ain't no homo going to make it to heaven."
The congregation erupts in applause at those lines, which the unidentified boy repeats as the pastor looks on.
At another point in the video a voice is heard shouting,"That’s my boy."
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In the first Sunday service since the video surfaced, congregants arrived to the church as protesters jeered them over the video.
A church leader, who would not give his name, told CNN that journalists were not allowed inside the church and declined to offer anyone from church leadership to comment on the video.
The leader said that he needed to be cautious about letting outsiders into the church because it had received threats over the video and asked CNN to leave the premises.
Church videos with harsh words for gays go viral online
The local sheriff's office said the church had not reported any verifiable threats.
No one answered the door at the home of Jeff Sangl, the church's pastor.
The video of the singing boy was the latest in a string of viral anti-gay videos that have surfaced from independent churches. Those videos have been resoundingly condemned by religious leaders, even by conservatives who believe homosexual sex is a sin.
The Apostolic Truth Tabernacle posted a statement on its website that says in part: "The Pastor and members of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason.”
The pastor's son, Josh Sangl, told CNN his father was away on vacation and that there was much more to the video than we were being told, though he wouldn’t elaborate.
The majority of the church members wouldn’t comment about the controversy or respond to questions about the parents of the young boy.
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"I think it's blown out of proportion, you know," said Robert Kirby, who is not a church member but was attending Sunday's church service in support of his daughter, who teaches Sunday School there. "They love everybody.
"They don't love sin though," he said. "It's all in the Bible."
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
""The Pastor and members of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason.”"
They hate, but for no reason. Gee, that's nice.
So sayeth the shepherd. So sayeth the flock.
Porky's and Porky's revenge
baaa...., baaa...., etc.
When it comes to bullsh!t, big-time, major league bullsh!t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullsh!t story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullsh!t story. Holy Sh!t!
He also has really poor communication skills. He supposedly wrote a book about how we should live, but no one can agree on what it says. So we'll pick a little of this, and a little of that, throw out this part, keep the part that doesn't apply to me. The biggest lie is that it's god's mysterious ways, that he'll reveal it all when you get to heaven.
So I'm supposed to live my life according to a book that I can't understand until after I'm dead? Nice work, god.
Thank you Mr. Carlin
Amazing how obsessed atheists are with a dead book. It's like an itch that they can't reach. Or maybe the Bible is so complex it overwhelms their inadequate reasoning capacity.
God needs a new human resources department; he just can't get good help any more. Give it thirty days and that pastor's boyfriend will come forward . . .
We're not obsessed with the bible, but it keeps getting shoved into everyone's face as the only way to live. It's christians who keep trying to pass laws based on what the bible says.
"WE HATE SIN.....BUT WE LOVE GOD AND WE WON'T STOP....SERVIN HIM, WORKIN THEM STREETS TILL THERE'S NOTHIN LEFT....WE PROCLAIM DOMINANCE TO THE FLESH....." -4SIGHT (CHRIS OWENS)
I see more hate from atheists nowadays towards people who really have done nothing wrong to them or anyone else.They preach religion is harmful etc but they also preach how every religious person on the planet is the same.
Cowards who hide online behind a screen name about how religion is dangerous but do NOTHING in real life? So much for their goal of "stomping out religion" becoming a reality someday.
They just blame religion.People are never blamed even if they wanted to do it.They claim to know sooooo much about the bible but..can only site what others say or what they can remember(or popular verses).
Blame blame blame.Thats all they ever do...
So is that your real name?
Thanks to this blog, we've been able to see what atheists are like. If we put them all into a room together, they couldn't stand each others' presence for thirty seconds. And they'd worry themselves sick that some other atheist might be smarter.
I don't worry about other atheists being smarter. I actually encourage it because some of them are quite adept at debating with the likes of you.
If you consider yourself intelligent, how on earth do you reconcile your belief in a god without a shred of evidence...??
@At death atheists believe – How would you know? And why is it any of your business to annoy us with your bronze-age sheep-molestor beliefs? Is your life so pathetic that you try to fill the void by filling your existence with vitriol for anyone that believes differently than you? My guess as to the last question, is a resounding... yes.
I just see that as wishful thinking on your part.
“I see more hate from atheists nowadays towards people who really have done nothing wrong to them or anyone else. They preach religion is harmful etc but they also preach how every religious person on the planet is the same.”
Only the one’s that are trying to block other peoples civil rights. Religion has killed more people on this planet.
“Cowards who hide online behind a screen name about how religion is dangerous but do NOTHING in real life? So much for their goal of "stomping out religion" becoming a reality someday.”
So that applies to you as well since you’re hiding behind a screen name. Duh! By the way I thought lying was a sin, I do plenty to help others in my real life. LMAO!
“They claim to know sooooo much about the bible but..can only site what others say or what they can remember(or popular verses).”
You must have a reading comprehension problem since Christians spat the same nonsense and verses over and over again with it comes to the gay issue. Christians on this site even admit to using bible study websites for their quotes. LMAO!
“Blame blame blame.Thats all they ever do...”
Isn’t that what you just did? LOL!
"So much for their goal of "stomping out religion" becoming a reality someday." Ha ha, if you could 'stomp out religion,' you twisted weirdos would have done it already to each other. No, I'd like to 'teach' it out. Talking snakes . . . .
"Cowards who hide online behind a screen name" Like you, and yours is an actual hatebag insult. How about 'at death, Christians recant?' That do it for ya?
I am the only one here that is full of love.
So sayeth the LORD. Probably not about you though.
Supposing there was some one else who read your post who was full of love, your post would be very insulting.
You are too flacid to love JW
I am FULL of christs love – Saved
"don't teach hate"? Religion is the best evidence for Cognitive Dissonance Theory.
WOW again wrote that being gay is a choice.
Well WOW, I have personally asked you dozens of times to support that statement – to post the citations to peer-reviewed scientific research showing gays choose to be gay.
Like every other ignorant fundiot before you who has been asked to do this, you have refused. Yet you keep reposting this as fact.
Why do you refuse to post your evidence?
Yeah really. If it's a choice how come I can't just decide to be straight? Not even a little blue pill can help make that happen.
WOW decided to test his theory; he put on a dress and headed out to the bars for some cheap thrills. As for me, I don"t think I could "choose" to do that.
You and I go through this just about every day. You always want a post of evidence but you cannot post evidence yourself that there is in fact proof that people are born gay. You only want to report research that does not in fact conclude with a fact that people are born gay.
I would like to make note of the hateful words you have been using of "ignorant fundiot". Why do you speak such hatred toward me?
"You only want to report research that does not in fact conclude with a fact that people are born gay. "
There is a biological component to sexuality and that has been posted many times, it has to do with the same biological components that determines your eye & hair color, if your left or right handed, etc...etc.... Yet you continue to try and spread your unfounded lies and bigotry without any facts. LMAO!
WOW – I've posted citations to dozens of peer-reviewed scientific research explaining the biological multivariate nature of sèxual orientation. Neither you, nor any of the other ignorant fundiots have ever posted a refutation to a single solitary one of the. Ever.
@Wow.. question then, what do kids in single digits of age know about sexuality? And how is it that they show homosexual tendencies already? There are scores of example cited in medical journals as well as psychology journals about such cases.. I distinctly remember a case about a soldier who committed suicide because their family tried to "cure" his choice. His childhood medical history file was shown on CNN that clearly showed his inclination towards makeup, toys deemed girlish, etc. How many more examples do you need to prove it is not a choice but something people are born with?
"How many more examples do you need to prove it is not a choice but something people are born with?"
They won't except any since they would have to face their unfounded prejudice and bigotry head on but their ego will get in the way.
WOW – I'd also add that what you did here is called moving the goalposts. Instead of answering the original question, you go off on a tangent.
So, again, WOW, where is the scientific evidence that gays choose to be gay? Don't dodge again, just answer the question.
You apparently take issue with the term ignorant fundiot. You, and those of your ilk, do choose to be ignorant about the science of sèxual orientation. Thus, I fail to see how you could take issue with being called ignorant. And fundiot is simply a contraction of fundamentalist îdiots. You are a fundamentalist. And you are an îdiot. You purposefully choose to believe in myths written by bronze-aged shepherds, rather than actual evidence and facts. If that isn't the very definition of fundamentalist îdiots, I don't know what is.
If hom,ose,xuality is not a choice, wouldn't it be true that we would be able to distinguish se,xual orientation in the genes of an infant upon birth? Nope, neither in the same way you cant test for left-handed from right-handed infants.
Under the system of peer-review, a researcher submits findings to a journal for publication. Along with a review by editors, the article is sent to several specialists in the field.
These reviewers are not paid for their time, their names are usually not published, and their comments usually remain secret. They are usually not allowed to contact the researchers directly to ask questions, and they do not try to replicate the research.
But peer review also lacks consistent standards. Procedures vary among the world's 10,000 or so journals. A peer-reviewer often spends about four hours reviewing research that may have taken months or years to complete, but the amount of time spent on a review and the expertise of the reviewer can differ greatly, especially at lesser-known journals.
"It has been bandied about as a sort of 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval,' " said Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine. "It is only as good as the peer-reviewers and editors."
There is no governing body that defines what const.itutes good peer-review, or that demands that certain standards be followed.
Needless to say your peer-reviewed research has flaws.
Again there is no fact that you can show that people are born gay but only point to these peer review research that is know to have flaws.
Again there is no fact that you can show that people are born gay but only point to these peer review research that is know to have flaws.
So I am guessing that Christians go through a whole "choice" process before having s e x? At any moment they could easily choose the same s e x.... very interesting.
You continue to show your hatred toward me. Why do you continue to spout your hatred? You are no better than the ones you say that are advocating hatred. If you want to be taken serious about being against hate speech maybe you should practice not hating first.
"Again there is no fact that you can show that people are born gay but only point to these peer review research that is know to have flaws."
LMAO! It's hysterical to see the excuses you will continue to come up with in your head so you can try to justify your unfounded prejudice and bigotry towards gays. LMAO! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.
If the "church leader" was so proud of his role in representing God and his congregation, why not give his name? He's a coward and not someone to be followed or honored.
These "people" are no better than dogs. They should all be sterilized.
Some folks sitting the in pews are waiting to hear from those on high in the Church that this priest is NOT a representative of the Church. Or is he? WWJD?
"God is right....." – really? Which god? Your version? Really? Prove it. Case closed.
No one is more hateful, discriminatory, and anti-family values than the gays.
You can hate me for saying it, but it is still the truth.
I know many loving families with gay parents
You're not making a good 1st impression
And from what i've seen in this video, the people in this church are more hateful than any gay I've ever spoken to
Pointless, inflammatory generalization....congrats. You got your little bit of attention for the day.
I'm gay and I love my family as well as my partner's. How am I am I anti-family?
Do you have any data to back that statement up, or is it just the BS that it smells like?
@Stel: I think that is an unfair statement. The issue is not hate for hate is just hate. It comes in all forms and from individuals from all walks of life, lifestyle, and beliefs... you name it. The issue is that h.o.mo.se. xuality is a sin but that does not make them bad people only sinful. It is not up to a Christian to change them but to only witness to them and if their spirit is not willing to accept then you must turn from them but not shut the door.
Well you certainly have a creepy view of being a neighbor. I am putting 2 and 2 together and finally realizing that cold, distant personality that accompanies my sister's in-laws, who are BAC. They do not look into my eyes. They do not ask about my work. They do not engage me at all, as if they were too offended to be in my presence but could not escape. Thank you for describing the mindset of the BACs. What a frightening world they would make if they were indeed in charge. Their hearts are cold, and can not get over their brainwashed reality to be involved with anyone they consider sinful. Question: Does that kind of smugness build a healthy mind?
No, I don't hate you for saying that no one is more hateful or anti-family than gay people. I pity you for your ignorance and your apparent happiness at being so.
@jungleboo – Jesus would invite you over and be your best friend. I'm sorry your in-laws are missing the point.
And the Christ in me understands that I am my own best friend, that I love myself and what I have done with my talents, and that I am bound by the Golden Rule to treat my fellow man as I would like to be treated, and to share my talents generously. Yes. The Christ in me. I am the crossing of the spiritual/quantum realm and the waterfall/physical realm. It's a miracle. It is worth it. Just Being. No puppets, no marionettes, no fables, no collection basket.
ummmmmm, not the waterfall/physical realm...the material/physical realm. Time to write some poetry.
No one is more hateful, discriminatory, and anti-family values than the gays.
You can hate me for saying it, but it is still the truth.
I am guessing a g ay person rejected your advances...get over it
@jungleboo – Ok, cool, glad you are happy:)
A lot of churches today have nothing but politics and racist issues, not even close to the way it used to be when you would leave feeling good.
Exactly how is being against gays racist? I didn't know hom.os.exuality is a race.
Religion is the opium of the people.
Again we go with the name stealing. Ok, so be it. I'll just keep changing my name. But I will NOT be silenced.
no.. we are not that lucky to be rid of a bigot like you... sad!
Just read the comments on this forum and you will see who the true bigots are.
No one's going to silence you. Keep making silly, inflammatory nonsense posts all you like. We'll point and laugh until we're bored, then ignore you.
Change your name all you want, it's obvious to everyone when you post. Just look for the most arrogant, self-important, pious dipsh!t and it'll be you.
Do you deny the hate captured in this video?
@Drew – As a Christian, I cannot deny the hate in this video. It’s deplorable. But neither can you deny the vitriol hurled at Christians in these threads.
I wouldn't deny taht some people say unacceptable things about Christians in these threads. They are in the minority, though. I think sometimes Christians confuse honest criticism of their inst itutions with hatred
good, evangelical, don't be silenced. you are a fine advertisement for what you disagree with
I see a lot of hate in these comments, but it is NOT coming from the Christians.
...and 2 + 2 = 5
Back when I was gay I was very hateful too
...and you were "cured"?? Now we all know you're just trolling....
Here is your problem..
what you see as hate from non christians is actually ridicule.. making fun of their backa$$ wards thinking
and what you see as "passing around love" from christians, is actual unadulterated hate..
I didn't think, among other things, that you are this bad at reading comprehension..
Oh boy. Here we go.
Yeah, right, it's only ridicule. (eyes roll)
@evangelical. You folks use the word 'hate' like it was a badge of some sort. What you percieve as 'hate' is not really so, though you get your jollies off saying so. See, you folks just LOVE to feel like you are being persecuted because it makes you feel special. Well you are, and we all know you came in on the 'short' bus. But really it's not hate it pointing out the facts of your fakery, false teaching and a fake god, who, btw has never lifted a hand to help anyone. How come he didn't help the truse believer that got snake bit? Oh, his 'faith wasn't strong enough? The snake tricked him? What? Can you handle that snake and not get bit? 'nuff said.
I too can see that most of the hateful comments are coming from atheists, and I'm embarrassed by their behavior.
@An Agnostic – what means are you using to decide who's atheist, unless they say so?
Hate is a choice of behavior just as being gay is a choice of behavior. Both have been around since Cain and will be here for awhile to come. Grow up all of you and understand you will not stamp out either of them. This does not mean you have to like or agree with them but you will not rid them from this earth as we know it now.
WOW, I know you refuse to understand, but being gay is not a choice. Hopefully one day we'll be able to stamp out fools like you.
Ah.. you are full of love.. lets see, people representing which group do we see urging others to "hit their children" or "round them up in electric fences" and outright "kill them all" ?? and which group calls the other "stupid" "idiotic" and "question their faith"..
I guess the first group above is full of "love" and the second group above is full of "hate".. Do you not see the problem here? are we really talking in the same language here?
"just as being gay is a choice of behavior"
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
@An Agnostic: You are a non-believer!! BURN IN HELL!!
Hate is a choice of behavior just as being gay is a choice of behavior
Really? What about intellectual capacity? Are you choosing to not display much of it, or were you just born that way?
I do not support the gay and lesbian community, but I do believe everyone goes to heaven and that is where our judgement begins. In the Bible God put Adam and Eve on the earth not Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve. Of course anything seems to be able to be justified.
Dumb question but, when did He create the talking snake?
In the beginning of what? We know that we have descended from earlier ape species. We know Adam and Eve did not exist before that.
You're just parrotting what you've been taught. What good is that?
In the Bible God put Adam and Eve on the earth
Were they part of the Ho mo Erectus, or Ho mo Neanderthal tribe, I wonder? Because, that's where modern human is alledged to have evolved from.
I guess you also support ince$t as well, since your god created adam and eve only and no one else.. But, according to your holy book, that is wrong..
do you not see the problem/contradiction there?
To support the Adam and Eve idea means you also have to accept incest as being normal. Not supporting your fellow human regardless of who they love is bigotry. People are naturally born gay. The book you use to say science is wrong is 2000 years old...do you not for one second comprehend how it could now be wrong?
Please refrain from telling us what you think God did.
Did you ever consider that, according to your little story, your God made his first real playmate into...a Man? Who, if we are to believe Michelangelo's imaginative rendering, was one very hot tamale?? If your God thinks man on man activity is not good, what's up with that, anyway? Why not a woman first, if straight companionship is the only way to enjoy life?
See how your little story can be turned inside out and be given new contextual meaning? Care to discuss THAT one with me?
"Dumb question but, when did He create the talking snake?"
Right after he created the talking flaming shrubbery and the magic apple.
God created everything right? God is perfect right? God created gays right? Who the hell are you to judge your God? He's perfect, you're flawed remember? Let's be honest, Christians don't worship a god, they worship a book! Hypocritical idolatry! Golden Calf! The Bible ISNT GOD. There isn't a god as far as I'm concerned, but you are the ones putting him out there, be consistent ya jerks! Is he the all-powerful or isn't he? Why don't you just admit you're all haters? And maybe read history to find out that the words in the bible have been spoken by humans for eons, nothing sacred there, just words. Twits...idolators, admit it, you only worship the book, nothing else matters. Hypocrites.
@jr. Well jr, I don't support giving folks like you the right to vote, either. However it's the law of the land, where your little book of FAIREY tales doesn't hold sway. Get with the program, or get left out and be a hater of your own species.
I love it. I've created man and woman, and found them to be good. Now I'm going to create this magic apple and talking snake just to f_ck with them.
Did you go to school? Did you miss science classes where they taught about evolution?
just FYI...anytime you reference the bible you are referencing a book written by a bunch of ancient men over a long period of time, then edited by more men to fit an agenda. This is not the word of god, but the words of fallible humans.
This a re-post directed @Nate. it took a while to compose:
To presume that the Big Bang or any other process just WHAMMED into place and we walked out onto the stage with nary a hair out of place is not getting the basic idea of agnosticism/atheism.
Ever hear of splitting the atom? As in The Atom Bomb? If human beings have cracked that code already, why is it beyond reason to accept that any primary singularity (not necessary to name it or make it a puppet with human features) would, over trillions x trillions of years (Earth years, no big deal on the cosmic stage), develop into the spectacular mathematical, geometric, organic, neutronic paradise we call our Universe.
Quantum physics even hazards a guess that the Universe is not even really there until it has an observer. The problem with fundies, is that they stare into their book to the exclusion of being open to ideas and possibility. In fact it is a fundamental aspect of their life not to question or to go looking for interesting answers, for fear of "losing their soul", whatever that is
The Agnostics and Atheists posting here have happily let go of the idea that a giant human being is out there pulling the strings. That's all. Why is that threatening to anyone? It's a delightful, relaxed ride across the Universe. Exactly what we were born to do, before we were taken into a church by our less than enlightened parents.
That's funny... i was just going to respond to his post from an hour ago, but figured was too old and I'd never get a response.
Yes, both theories (creationism / big bang) could seem "far-fetched".... BUT the preponderance of EVIDENCE is on the side of a big bang (or similar) scientific theory.
I have yet to see one shred of evidence of a god.
Careful...they like to use the word theory against us, not understanding for one second that there are steps leading up to it. I think every school should have the Scientific Method posted in every classroom.
You junglrboo are probably an atheist who stand behind science riddles. What you and science fails to surmize is, Where did the "matter" that "created" the Big Bang Come From? To say the material that "created" the Big Bang came from nothing does not explain but sidetracks the Creation of the matter needed to bring into being this Big Bang.
Also, consider human conceptions. When the sperm makes it into the egg just exactly how does the fertilized egg gather together all the atoms to create a human body? Building a body "one atom" at a time is not only orderly but also beyond mankinds' scientific understandings.
@Theistville Dog – comedy gold, man. Comedy gold.
"Building a body "one atom" at a time is not only orderly but also beyond mankinds' scientific understandings'
Actually, it is very easily explainable. My wife is a molecular biologist and could explain the entire process to you.
It would be a waste of time because you are too stupid to understand it, but she could explain it nonetheless
@ Theist. Honey, if that is what you were able to gather from my post, and your question is serious, then you are definitely not ready for agnosticism/atheism. You are holding on too tight for fear of...? What? No one needs to explain anything, because it is beyond our comprehension. That's ALL. It is YOUR explanation that is simply too ludicrous for words.
@Theistville .. I guess humans came preprogrammed with the understanding of how internet works? so if you had asked a dude in egypt 3000 yrs ago, he would know how a computer works?
or could it just be that the quest to understand the world is an ever going process.. Just because there isn't an answer for how a sperm knows to find an egg today, does not mean it would never be answered, you know.. also, to simply say, "coz god made it that way" is stoopid and an intellectually dishonest cop-out.. How did you miss out on such basic thinking skills?
But the question is, HOW does that singularity “develop into the spectacular mathematical, geometric, organic, neutronic paradise we call our Universe” WITHOUT some intelligent force guiding it thus? The amount of time involved in that development does not negate the astonishing amount of evidence that points to a mind behind it all.
"astonishing amout of evidence pointing to a mind" behind it all? "astonishing amount"????
Your statement is astonishing!
DB, the word "mind" is what we use to refer to our Consciousness. How could you possibly reduce your "god" to something as flat out ordinary as another human being (and not blush for having made such a sorry little move)?
@DB.. how did the clock that does not even work got time correct not once, but TWICE in the same day?? EVERYDAY.. such astonishing amount of evidence can only point to a mind behind it all, isn't it? ***sarcasm.. get it? sarcasm!!
Do you know how big the universe is? do you know how many stars are there? and how many planets are there? and do you know how many of them bear life? why do you think that is? did god just decide to create that huge universe and put life on one stupid small planet? or could it be that the right circumstances that can harbor and nourish life occurred on one planet among several trillion rocks scattered all around it? Think, my friend, Think.. use that noggin!
"The amount of time involved in that development does not negate the astonishing amount of evidence that points to a mind behind it all."
First, no one knows how the universe was created. We cant even see the whole thing right now. But that does not automatically mean there must have been intelligent design. google "law of averages"
Second, please provide some of the "Evidence" you deem "astonishing". this should be good.
“Do you know how big the universe is? do you know how many stars are there? and how many planets are there?” Sorry, are you arguing against me here? Because the enormity of the universe (and the complexity thereof) would be precisely my point.
“and do you know how many of them bear life? why do you think that is? did god just decide to create that huge universe and put life on one stupid small planet?” What you’ve done here is argued for the uniqueness of Earth, but that does not disprove the existence of God. Would a billion Earths be more to your liking? Would a design argument be more credible then? Even without multiple life-bearing planets, you still have to contend with the one we know of. How did life begin HERE? What do you do with the complexity of DNA? How do you explain the apparent and observable sophistication of life?
“or could it be that the right circu-mstances that can harbor and nourish life occurred on one planet among several trillion rocks scattered all around it?” RIGHT CIRCU-MSTANCES. Again, aren’t you supposed to be arguing against me?
"Where did the "matter" that "created" the Big Bang Come From? To say the material that "created" the Big Bang came from nothing does not explain but sidetracks the Creation of the matter needed to bring into being this Big Bang. "
We don't know, nor do you. We however admit to not knowing, you plug a god in to it. At least we're being honest!
Yes, the universe didn't spring out of nowhere; I was just trying to prove a point. If big bang is true, there is a moment where matter comes into existence, as well as the forces that will keep the universe in order. It takes just as much faith to accept that as it does to believe in a creator, if not more. The universe and nature are beyond genius - they are mind blowing. Call me a crazy loon, but I don't have enough faith to believe it just happened.
It’s not what we don’t know that leads me to believe intelligent design. It’s what we do know. It’s the complexity and sophistication that is apparent and observable. Obviously, “astonishing” is a subjective term, but do you find nothing intelligent about DNA? When you see letters organized in such a way as to convey meaning, do you not rightly infer that a mind arranged them thus?
I’m aware of your law of averages and also the law of large numbers, each of which grants far too much power to Chance. I just don’t have enough faith to believe in that.
I also want to add that I try really hard to be open-minded and not confine God to a little box like many of the "fundies" do. I am very interested in science and look forward to new discoveries. I'd like to get more into physics eventually.
But are you being honest? And I’m not trying to impugn your character here, just asking a philosophical question. If you truly “don’t know,” wouldn’t you be agnostic? Assuming you are atheist (and I think you are), you have made a decision – based on ignorance, by your own admission – that there is no God. If you don’t know how the universe was created, then it certainly COULD have been created by God. Your ignorance allows for that possibility, but your atheism does not.
@DB, actually, I think you have trouble understanding the point.. The fact that there is such a large universe with millions of planets, which took trillions of years to form and one tinsy planet with right circu-mstances which nurturs life yields proof AGAINST the existence of god. it is about one in hundred billion event that caused the right circu-mstances. But there is no god needed.
If there was god who created the universe, would he like to create different kinds of rocks or different life forms on EACH of those rocks? if god existed, he would have made different kind of life on each planet. reread my comment with that in mind (which I thought was quite obvious, but you proved not to understand it).
Besides, to answer something that we do not understand YET as "God done it" is a cop out and honestly it is intellectually dishonest. you have the ability to reason through the questions.. so use it and try searching for answers rather than say "god did it that way".
Think history and how many questions that were attributed to "god did it" were scientifically answered.
It's good to see Christian parents rearing their children to be full fledged bullies. There's no room for half@$$ bullying in Uhmerica.
Some of these kids will have already held the wheel as their dad ran over a pedestrian. Good times in the Heartland . . .
It seems to me that atheists are more bigotted then theists are. Theists forgive but atheists choose not to forgive and they hold such issues of bigotry toward and against others. Christians show love more often then atheists do. (Just an observation)
We're not the ones using a 2000 year old book to guide us or tell us who deserves equal rights in this world. We don't have to put up with the hatred that comes out of the mouth's of some christians, especially when that hatred attacks people who don't believe the same way.
Generalizing is fun isn't it?
Someone actually let this guy graduate high school (assuming he got that far)? God help us all.
sigh.. ever heard of such words? ridicule, laugh at, jest at, rib, make fun, poke fun, mock...
Hey dog, you lie lie a sack of shyte. You don't forgive, you and your' ilk have nothing but comtemp/hate for those who oppose your views and point out the very real fallicies of your religions. You lie to yourself as well, as you can't let go of the fact that a fairy tale tells you you are 'special'. You deparately need to 'believe as you trulnothing to 'cling to. You need the chains of religion, don't you?
I am not for nor against gay civil unions much the same way I am not for or against gun control laws. For one to protect the rights of gay life, seems to need governmental backing brought on by people's willingness to side for such a thing as gayness civilities. Whatever becomes of gayness civilities will be at the hands of those who will it and want it. I could care less.
I have 2 relatives who are gay. One mother and her son are both gay. She was married and had a son and after divorce did she turn her life toward being a lesbian. I do not know why her son trned gay. Do I hold their gayness ways against them? No, I don't. People will do almost anything to not be loanely in their life. (Just a thought)
"I am not for nor against gay civil unions much the same way I am not for or against gun control laws. For one to protect the rights of gay life, seems to need governmental backing brought on by people's willingness to side for such a thing as gayness civilities. Whatever becomes of gayness civilities will be at the hands of those who will it and want it. I could care less.
I have 2 relatives who are gay. One mother and her son are both gay. She was married and had a son and after divorce did she turn her life toward being a lesbian. I do not know why her son trned gay. Do I hold their gayness ways against them? No, I don't. People will do almost anything to not be loanely in their life. (Just a thought)"
LOL sounds like the 1960's....only replace "gay" with "black"
"Theists forgive but atheists choose not to forgive and they hold such issues of bigotry toward and against others. " In other words, you hate atheists and will never forgive them, but you have no problem with overlooking bigotry. Why am I not surprised? Another 'christian' whose heart is filled with hatred and resentment. Please don't burn me alive, Mister Christian.
"and after divorce did she turn her life toward being a lesbian. I do not know why her son trned gay. " Kid, nobody "turns" gay; they just give up and admit it. Live in the real world, ok?
Truth hurts eh?