 |
|
|
|
|
June 14th, 2012
12:40 PM ET
My Take: More doubts about God doesn't mean religion is weakening
By Stephen Prothero, Special to CNN When it comes to doubt, sometimes a little skepticism is in order. As CNN's Dan Merica reported earlier this week, a recent Pew Research Center survey sees doubt rising sharply inside the millennial generation. Between 2007 and 2012, this survey says, the portion of young Americans (those 30 and uner) who say they never doubt the existence of God dropped sharply between 2007 and 2012, from 83% to 68%. This report has stirred up a chatstorm in the blogosphere, with 2600 comments and counting on Merica's Belief Blog post alone. But does this data really say what many atheists want it to say? Is American religion really heading for a fall? Look carefully at the survey question. What this data is tracking is the percentage of young people for whom doubt has never creeped into their faith. I don’t know about you, but most of the religious people I know experience both doubt and faith over the course of their spiritual lives. So the fact that more than two-thirds of young people say they have never doubted God’s existence seems to me evidence of America's extraordinary religiosity, not its disbelief. That suspicion is supported by the fact that this same Pew survey found that millennials who identify with a religion is not declining. Moreover, according to Pew's U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, only 3% of millennials are atheists. The takeaway, it seems to me, is not that religion is declining in America but that it is changing. Or, to paraphrase my Boston University colleague and sociologist of religion Peter Berger, what is shifting here is the how of religion. In short, doubt is a part of the spiritual lives of more young people than it has been in the past. I have been spending way too much time lately with Google’s Ngram Viewer. This website allows you to see how prominent certain key words are in books published in various languages from 1800 forward. It’s also possible to see how these key words match up against one another over time. I searched the Ngram database for the words “faith” and “doubt” in American English from 1800 to 2008. Here’s what I found: For much of the nineteenth century, “faith” won out over “doubt.” But as Biblical criticism, evolutionary theory, and comparative religions started to chip away at traditional understandings of Christianity, “doubt” ran past faith in the late 1880s. For roughly the next century, the two terms tracked rather closely. During the Reagan Revolution of the 1980s, however, faith bypassed doubt. What matters here is not the horse race. More significant is the fact that, since the late Victorian period, doubt has become part of the landscape of faith in America. To see doubt as a denial of faith is to misunderstand how most Americans live their religious lives. The fact that doubt is now a part of faith for a significant minority of American believers strikes me at least as a sign of faith’s maturity, not its demise. Perhaps, like the millennials themselves, American religion is growing up. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Stephen Prothero. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
|
|
|
Editor's Note: Stephen Prothero, a Boston University religion scholar and author of 
Jen: "She thinks Catholics are cult members and you are going to burn in h-ll too (my husband is Catholic so I guess we will all be there together."
Jen, are an atheist, agnostic, Catholic or other?
I am agnostic but my husband is Catholic. Proof that two people can fall in love and get along as long as they are not crazy wing nuts about their views. If your belief or non-belief is the most important thing in your life you are scr-we'd (and crazy as a loon).
My only issue with religion is the people that try to make it part of government. I could not care less what anyone believes in, but religion has no place in government. When I moved to the US from Canada I was shocked by how the religious right tries to control the government. I don't even know what religion the pm of Canada is, as it is irrelevant (he could be Wiccan for all I care).
Not to worry Jen. Most of us are not sure what religion the president of this country is either.
Heaven sent us tsunamies, earthquakes, tornadoes, and other natural disasters that have killed and maimed millions of innocent people, plus typhus, meningitis, cholera, and cancers too numerous to mention to cause pain and suffering to innocents.
Wow, god must really be quite the evil asshole.
Amen.
Let's see, knocks up a virgin and leave the rest of the world to deal with the rantings of the illegitimate child. Apparently, that explains it's popularity among some subcultures
A while back I asked Herbie to prove that the so called virgin mary was not a slut that was doing every dude passing through Bethlehem. He refused to engage in further discussion when it became clear he could not.
the absolute filth of your character that ended the discussion?
How can atheists change what mankind is? They are powerless and they know they are.How can you change 7 billion people or more in the near future?
LOL. There's a whole lot of wrong assumptions, there, in just one post. You're like a baseball player complaining about "sticky wickets."
I Follow Christ . I never wanted proof. I just had faith.
HE WHO follows Me, walks not in darkness,” says the Lord (John 8:12). By these words
of Christ we are advised to imitate His life and habits, if we wish to be truly enlightened and
free from all blindness of heart. Let our chief effort, therefore, be to study the life of Jesus
Christ.
The teaching of Christ is more excellent than all the advice of the saints, and he who
has His spirit will find in it a hidden manna. Now, there are many who hear the Gospel often
but care little for it because they have not the spirit of Christ. Yet whoever wishes to understand
fully the words of Christ must try to pattern his whole life on that of Christ.
What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you
displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous
life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it.
For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the
philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity,
except to love God and serve Him alone.
This is the greatest wisdom—to seek the kingdom of heaven through contempt of the
world. It is vanity, therefore, to seek and trust in riches that perish. It is vanity also to court
honor and to be puffed up with pride. It is vanity to follow the lusts of the body and to desire
things for which severe punishment later must come. It is vanity to wish for long life and
to care little about a well-spent life. It is vanity to be concerned with the present only and
not to make provision for things to come. It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not
to look ahead where eternal joy abides.
Often recall the proverb: “The eye is not satisfied with seeing nor the ear filled with
hearing.”1 Try, moreover, to turn your heart from the love of things visible and bring
yourself to things invisible. For they who follow their own evil passions stain their consciences
and lose the grace of God.
See for yourself. You will be on a battlefield for christ..
Oh yay a not as long but and paste today. Are you having fun showingyour idiocy kindness? Not that I expect you to reply.
What would you say to someone who claims to be in contact with advanced alien beings, or someone who has absolute faith in a new drug that has never been tested? Faith is not always the best basis for making a decision, right?
Good afternoon everyone, you all are more than welcome to visit ... thestarofkaduri.com
Prayer changes things. Proof of the power of prayer at prolapsed.net.
give it a rest you moron. prolapsed.net – 3 Hotties Make A Prolapse Party!
Grow up.
"Prayer changes things."
You're such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!
not a fan of this spammer above, but regarding prayer... people bizarrely think of it as magic fairy dust. im reminded of the old "god will save me joke" where a guy stranded on his roof during a flood turns down 3 rescue boats claiming god would save him. he then dies and asks god why he didn't save. god replies that he sent 3 rescue boats after him. maybe instead of praying for god to cure my headache, i should just take two advil and thank god for the human intelligence to develop and mass produce ibuprofen.
It's fascinating to me how the lowest common denominator emerges on these boards. Perhaps I am in the wrong place to have a reasonable discussion. Perhaps civility is lost. Perhaps all mankind is simply fallen.
Don't go, we'll miss you....
Bill see my post to you below. I enjoy having intelligent, rational and polite debate on this board, but ever since Heavensent told me (with glee) that my very young beautiful children are going to burn for all eternity I've dropped the niceties with her. She's just a horrible person and needs to be reminded of that.
She thinks Catholics are cult members and you are going to burn in h-ll too (my husband is Catholic so I guess we will all be there together 🙂
Bill-Don't lose hope, When speaking to atheists you must always remind yourself that polite conversations are virtually impossible. When you don't expect much you won't be disappointed. There are still some atheists with whom you can have an intelligent conversation. You should learn to ignore the rest....
Cheers!
Actually, Jen, I told you no such thing. I did however, agree with Jesus' truth posted by another blogger.
Lose hope, Bill. You're about as much of a snot as HS is anyway.
Reading your post sam, I can tell that the sin of wrath is blinding you.
The sin of wrath LOL. Yet god is supposedly allowed to be as wrathful as he wants, especially in the old testament.
HawaiiGuest, God created All. "But he who is spiritual judges ALL things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." 1 Corinthians 2:15 (1 Corinthians 6:2-3; 10:15; 14:29, Romans 16:17).
Amen.
So special pleading fallacy, gotcha.
Heavensent, you realize lying is a sin correct? You know that you are going to go to h-ll because you just lied right? You know and I know what you said that about my children. Another poster said that if my children died without finding Jesus first (ie tomorrow) they would go to h-ll. You said that was 'beautifully said, AMEN'. You KNOW that and I KNOW that. It was the sickest and most vile thing I've ever seen in my life. I realize your life sucks, but wishing people who have better lives than you to go to h-ll (especially when those people are children) makes you mentally ill.
All the Christians I know personally are phenomenal people. They live with by the most important rule, which I live by myself. Treat people how you would like to be treated. Because you are a vile human being, and blame people for your own failings at life, you think it is okay to be bitter and rude to everyone. Sorry – it is only your fault you are a failure. It is only your fault that you lost your job (I've worked in business a long time and the only people that get fired are the ones that deserve it). Own it. Stop being so bitter and own the fact that you deserve the life you have. You are at fault. No one else.
@Jen
HS gets her jollies by thinking about the suffering of others, real or imagined. She gave up her humanity and compassion for people a long time ago.
I know Hawaii. Like I said, I normally would feel sorry for someone with such a sad life as hers (I have known paranoid schizophrenics and it is pretty obvious she is one), but she does nothing to make her situation better so it is impossible to pity her. When the only thing that makes you happy is to think of others suffering...I mean wow....
LOL @ Jen, not everyones babys are born of the lord and some will go to hell. I have been touched by the one true lord and can only have babies that are saved by the blood of the lamb JESUS. HE has blessed me and not blessed the wicked like yourself... (smile)
Oh HS – getting excited about the thought of babies suffering again....you are right...God's chosen people are only those who are get off on the death of small children like yourself...you nailed it....
So God has chosen you, but has decided that in your life on earth you will not be able to hold a job, experience true love with a man, experience the amazing feeling of carrying a child, or get to raise children and experience the beauty of seeing the world through their eyes....but you are still one of the chosen ones...yeah that makes PERFECT sense...
Jen, if anyone is lying, you take that award. As I stated, I agreed with the blogger posting Jesus truth to you. Your feathers are ruffled because you haven't a clue to what Jesus teaches. Hence, why you took offense then, as you do now.
Get a life Jen. You know that's the phony heavensent writing you ... You stay the liar no matter how many games you and your viper TT produce.
HawaiiGuest, you just blew your cover ... you're just as phony as the other handles you hide behind. All the same loosers that hate Jesus.
You mean losers. Get an education. And get help. You are c-c-c-crazy!
Jen, thanks for proving that my post (the ones I write and not the thief that steals my handle posts) gets to folks that hate Jesus' truth.
Remember who you love and follow for being lazy in doing your own research.
Revelation 13:4-9
Amen.
@HeavenSent
Your paranoia is showing again. But it's not like you would actually admit that you're wrong, even if someone were to prove it to you. Say what you want, because as you continue to exercise your verbal diarrhea, you validate my assessment of you over and over again. I would almost feel sorry for you giving up your humanity and empathy in favor of self-righteous feel good doctrines, but you're enough of a bit.ch to where I don't care.
first the damn bast@rds took God out of the schools then out of the public square we need to round them up and deport them the hell to saudia arabia or iran they know how to deal with unbelievers
I call troll.
Oh, I saw a good you tube video about this. Turns out, there would be less doctors, professors, and scientists, while there would be more criminals per capita.
Atheists get out: Come and get us, big mouth
Since they are more religious there, don't you think you would fit in better? 😉
Sorry for the double post. It didn't seem to work when posted.
Prayer changes things .
Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!.
Prayer changes things
Proven conclusively
By Jesus
If it's proven would you kindly replicate the result of the study?
No, you're a proven LIAR – Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!
LIFE
"proof prayer changes things?
LIFE"
Nope – that's evolution. More lies.
Prayer can't be the cause of life. Only living things can pray.
you have arrived at ground zero stupid
edit: "that you accused"
"when equating life with evolution
you have arrived at ground zero stupid"
When you don't understand the full meaning of evolution you really show the world your low IQ. Here.... I'll spell it out for your pea brain.....Evolution......a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
Proof of prayer working at prolapsed.net. See the light of the lord for yourself
prolapsed.net
pointing people to a spam site is not cool and only shows you're a moron.
I guess Buddhist and Hindu prayers, as well as all the prayers that were ever offered to the pagan gods, work just as well as the Christian kind. That very likely is true.
@cq
not heard by God from groups who follow idols. Prayer is talking with God. To communicate with God a Buddhist or Hindu must first accept the Lord Jesus as Savior and abandon their false gods.
prayer is
Ah, Christians and Jews did not invent praying. The Greeks prayed to their gods as did other pagans. Hindus pray to their gods. There is prayer in Jainism, Shinto, Sikhism, and sometimes even in Taoism, with none of these religious groups praying to "God" as a Christian understands that term.
Why don't you pray that your posts show up here – instead of using that evil scientific computer.
@HeavenSent
It is indeed sad that people hear the words but will not listen, see the words but are completely blind. This is why atheists are to be pitied.
Blane, Atheist are not the ones that believe in something they can not prove (read as not delusional)
Blane, true Christians know what you are saying. Remember what Jesus told us in Matthew 7:6, then, keep your sense of humor when posting on this blog.
God be with you.
@Blane
Keep your pity, because those who do not subscribe to a religion that teaches the devaluing of human life are those who are truly sad.
Also, true Christians hear the voice of God.
God be with you.
God created all.
Phony heavensent is posting under my handle again knowing her team of non-believers is loosing. Too funny and simple minded.
@HeavenSent
You never post anything of relevance anyway. How can you think you're winning when your not even having a conversation? You only post assertions, bible verses, and condemnations while reveling in your own perceived piousness and holiness, as well as the thought of other people suffering for eternity.
@HeavenSent
You never post anything of relevance anyway. How can you think you're winning when your not even having a conversation? You only post assertions, bible verses, and con.demnations while reveling in your own perceived piousness and holiness, as well as the thought of other people suffering for eternity.
HawaiiGuest, you asked Jesus for not having having no eyes to see, nor, ears to hear His truth.
@HeavenSent
Thanks for providing an excellent example of an irrelevant post.
HawaiiGuest, you own the fact that you are blinded by the sin of pride.
@HeavenSent
Projection and irrelevant as well. Will you be going for 3 in a row?
@Jen
HS gets her jollies by thinking about the suffering of others, real or imagined. She gave up her humanity and compassion for people a long time ago.
Wrong thread.
Blane: Still spending life on your knees? Good for you.
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? C.S. Lewis – Mere Christianity
@C.S. Lewis
Your comparing it with your own ideals of justice. No god required.
So is your God not omnipotent and can't change this cruel universe? Or is he not benevolent and this universe is how he wishes it to be? Or does he not know that this universe is cruel?
it's funny how evil supposedly both proves and disproves the existence of god.
Chubby read C.S. Lewis the problem of Pain. It won't take long. Then you will know. You might wish to run the universe differently than God does but, you don't have a universe
Bill, I met my CS Lewis quota with The Chronicles of Narnia. Pretty good story but I thought The Golden Compass was better.
If God is the source of morality, why does the world that he created fly in the face his morals? I'll grant you the free will argument, so ignoring the human condition, what about animals that eat their offspring, wasps that lay eggs in inside of still alive spiders so that their larva can have a meal when they awaken? 99% of the species created on earth are extinct. Why does God seem to have a different set of moral principles than we as humans when he's supposedly reason for moral absolutes?
Chad
The same human imagination that can think of a world without pain and suffering can, and very likely did, construct a perfect being and call it "God." Just because we can imagine something doesn't make it real.
Well, if children's books are the depth of your inquiry, you may always have these questions. Again, I would refer you to his other writings. They are well reasoned, logic and articulate. He delivers a discourse on his transition from agnosticism to faith and deals quite adequately with your questions. If you are truly a discoverer or open minded and inquiring person, go read him. You may keep your existing views but you won't have to pose the same questions to these boards any longer.
You seem to want to have a reasonable discourse from the post above, but then tell me to read a book. If you want to have a discussion, you could at least present a summary of CS Lewis's points.
from goodreads.com
The Problem of Pain answers the universal question, "Why would an all-loving, all-knowing God allow people to experience pain and suffering?" Master Christian apologist C.S. Lewis asserts that pain is a problem because our finite, human minds selfishly believe that pain-free lives would prove that God loves us. In truth, by asking for this, we want God to love us less, not...more
Bill, a more salient question is why you keep on with the obviously absurd claim that your god is so "loving" when he would clearly quite the ass-hole if he existed. That is not just about the existence of suffering, but rather about god demanding and causing awful suffering and cruelties. Seriously, read the bible stories about your nasty sky fairy and his evil demands of humans as claimed in the bible. Fine stuff like this:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement. Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Bill, a more salient question is why you keep on with the obviously absurd claim that your god is so "loving" when he would clearly be quite the ass-hole if he existed. That is not just about the existence of suffering, but rather about god demanding and causing awful suffering and cruelties. Seriously, read the bible stories about your nasty sky fairy and his evil demands of humans as claimed in the bible. Fine stuff like this:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement. Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
It seems like chad has devolved into a parrot of C.S. Lewis. Well it's better than his own fallacious logic and dishonest discourse I suppose.
@Bill – 'children's books'? That's pretty smug coming from someone whining higher up the queue about the lack of civility here.
If God created us, and he is all-knowing, than he would know that Christians would interpret the bible differently and form various groups and denominations and be accusing each other of being wrong and going to hell. So why did he create apologists – such as CS Lewis – 2 thousand years later to try and clear things up for him? Why didn't he get it right in the original manual?
And while we're talking about the 'original manual' – why has the Bible changed so much? Most of what you know about god and about Christianity relies on the Bible right? Ever heard of the Codex Sinaiticus? It's the oldest copy of the Bible ever found – and it's quite different from the one you bought at Barnes and Noble. Thousands of changes in verses – many are omitted and of course there are many chapters and verses that have been added since. Strange how Gods everlasting word of truth tends to waffle like an ego.
Bill Deacon
Lewis can argue quite eloquently about the importance of believing in God, but this is still no proof that God actually exists. In the same way, Lenin could argue quite forcefully and inspirationally about how successful a communist state would be, but this didn't make it a reality. All Lewis offers is clever wordplay, like all Christian apologists.
People without God always find something to replace it. In the Soviet Union, the cult of communism took the place of religion. People who reject Christ often turn to paganism or some other religion. Still some worship science or their own intellect. But there is ALWAYS something there where God is for Christians.
Uh..... no. I am not, in any sense of the world "worshipping" science or my own intellect. Let's step aside from that for a second though and actually really dig into what you just said. If people are always worshipping something, in your mind at least, doesn't that make your god less real but instead is just the fantastical thing you choose to worship but holds equal merit with say a muslim who has allah or a hindu who has krishnah? I think you might have just shot yourself in the foot.
CHUCKLES!!!!!!
No, the Bible tell us that there are many false idols that people worship. While few people worship graven idols, many worship science or something else. These are false idols and reflect the paucity of their spiritual lives.
Blane,
Did you not read Chuckles reply?
We do not, repeat NOT worship science. The scientific method is a tool to finding the truth. The best tool ever devised, by the way.
I have replaced God with nothing, because that's what I had to start with.
Blane, what is your evidence for this claim? How many atheists do you know, personally? How do you know what they think? Do they tell you? I doubt it.
I see the worship of science everywhere. Just claiming that scientific knowledge is superior to all other knowledge is setting it up as an idol.
mainstream, I think Blane has an overly broad concept of worship.
Blane,
It seems that some people do have a strong attraction to worship. Not everyone does this. One can respect, admire, be awed by, learn from, utilize and enjoy people, ideas and things without it being worship. Worship connotes attributing magical powers and properties to the object of worship.
Blane how so? I don't see that please explain.
@ Blane,
"I see the worship of science everywhere. Just claiming that scientific knowledge is superior to all other knowledge is setting it up as an idol."
What is your definition of worship? Scientists test hypothesis, and are given high marks for proving them wrong. The more a theory stands up to scientific scrutiny, the more respect it garners.
Is this what you call worship?
Piggy-backing off Tom-Tom, since atheism is the belief in nothing supernatural, isn't it at least feasible that there is no firm consensus off what atheists believe? Atheism isn't a religion. Therefore, there are no firm, belief structures. One atheist might believe in the Big Bang Theory, another might have another rationale for how the Earth was created.
So even if you know a million atheists, its feasible that they all have different outlooks.
@Know
Worship has nothing to do with magic. Worship is ardent love of and devotion to something the the exclusion of everything else.
And you are asserting that all atheists love and devote themselves to science to the exclusion of all else?
Ahhhahhahhhahhhhhahhhaaaa.
@Blane – Science cannot be a religion. Science can change in the face of new data, religion does not. You trust an old book, but don't give enough credit to the people that supplied you with that 'computer-thingy'. It's like telling a person they don't know how to do their job, and you've never attempted to do it. That's laughable, as well as kinda sad. 🙂 🙁
Blane Worship:
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
Blane, you nailed it.
@AverageJoe
Where is it written that religion cannot change? Christianity and many other religions don't change, but it a part of the definition. Science is most definitely a religion with high priests (scientists) and followers, toadies like you.
*should read "it is not part of the definition"
@Evangelical
LOL your logic is hilarious. Continue to show your complete lack of critical thinking, or rational discourse. It's all very entertaining.
"Just claiming that scientific knowledge is superior to all other knowledge is setting it up as an idol."
Scientific knowledge generally is superior to other forms of knowledge because the scientific process requires evidence that anyone can replicate given the right materials. Compare this to religious "knowledge", which is based on emotions and experiences that cannot be shared and cannot be replicated by others.
Good grief. Scientists are "high priests"?
How do you people hold down jobs?
Blane
We don't "worship" science. Science is the product of rational thinking, something that we primates rely upon for our survival like the lion relies on it's teeth and claws. Religious thinking is magical thinking and a fear reaction to the unknown. Sometimes a little fear can help people to survive, but all this end of the world, burning in hell, ruin of society fear that fundamentalist America likes to stir up isn't helpful at all to the creation of a unified society. It's dividing the country and making a whole lot of people fearful, bigoted, elitist, and apathetic to the cause of making the nation a better one. Too many people have given up, and wait for Superman Jesus to come save them. What a waste!
@Damian
HELLO!
CQ, I know I'm wasting my type written talents explaining to you that the word "fear" is being misunderstood ... by YOU.
"People without God always find something to replace it."
Yes, reality.
HeavenSent
Please explain. Are you saying that there isn't any reason to fear this God you believe in?
"More doubts about God doesn't mean religion is weakening"
...It means that religion is getting watered down into a pablum of unreason that, aside from its meager psychological nutrition, is most prominently applied as an excuse when denying the unpleasant, and a pathetic defense of the unbelievable and indefensible. It means that more people are willing to say kind things about "spiritual experience" and in doing so allow seeds of extremism to grow and flourish under the protection of their moderation. It means that more people are allowing themselves to accept that it is nonsense, but that they are afraid to jettison it all together. It means the God of Abraham is dead in the secular west, but we are too cowardly to admit it to ourselves.
Adam
So, weak brand "moderate" forms of religion are responsible for creating religious "extremism", eh? Are you referring to the extreme liberal churches that support gay rights, women in the priesthood, and non-literal interpretations scripture; or the extreme fundamentalist churches that take the exact opposite stands? If both ends are "extreme" versions then wouldn't that make the middle ground moderate position the preferred one?
Adam, it means that God is in control. He already wrote that this would happen.
Amen.
HeavenSent
Don't you mean that, being omniscient, God already knows what will happen? If he wrote what will happen it removes our free will, right?
CQ – Christians can't even make up their mind between denominations about whether or not there is free will. That is why they are divided between Calvinists and Arminianists. Although, I'm sure HS isn't familiar with that – it will give her something to learn about.
regardless of what the author of this piece says, doubt leads to atheism. this is good news. more people are thinking instead of obeying. religion is going away... just not fast enough.
If I hadn't doubted, I wouldn't have faith today. Not all doubt leads to atheism. Doubt leads to questioning. Questioning, if done intentionally and intelligently, leads to thoughtful understanding. What you do with your conclusion is up to you. The results of each individual's doubt may be different with how they approach it. Avoid overarching, overgeneralized statements. It's a good rule to live by.
Ari, conclusions are usually based on the premise you start with.
What were you doubting, the existence of a Deity or your place in the universe, or some other thing?
The answers (I should say non answers) to my many questions are the reason I'm not a believer today.
only a fool would think that religion is "going away". debate about the existence of a deity has been going on since the beginning of time. this is nothing new. the same questions that existed in epicurus day still exist today. people have always and will always debate the problem of evil, the objectivity of moral values and so forth.
"people have always and will always debate the problem of evil, the objectivity of moral values and so forth."
Yes, but the question is will the concept of a God always be a part of those debates?
i dont see how you can have a debate on evil without including some form of supernatural.
some do believe that objective moral values can exist in the absence of god (not my view) so you could have a point there.
"The Dog Delusion
i dont see how you can have a debate on evil without including some form of supernatural.
some do believe that objective moral values can exist in the absence of god (not my view) so you could have a point there."
And why not? I have a moral code. Not based upon religion but based upon the equality of man. We all have an equal right to live, exist on this earth, and partake of the fruits of this world. Why must there be any more?
I have very few religious conversations as I first set the ground rules that you cannot quote the Bible or the Koran, or any other man made volume of theory. And so far, not one has shown me one single god made tome on the rules of the universe. Not one.
So after I lay out the rules of proof, there isn't much left to talk about. As an atheist, I am not militant. I could care less what delusions you all want to run your life with. I just wish I didn't have to spend so much of my limited time on earth defending my rights against the organized religions desire to control me and all my fellow atheist's lives. As far as you all killing each other in the name of god, good for you. Keeps your archaic views on birth control from totally screwing up the planet with over population, while keeping the majority of us atheist out of the front lines.
Someone up above accused atheist of worshiping science. What a laugh. We respect what is presented to us and question everything.
I'll tell you about faith. The utter despair that half the US population believes in creationism. The US is going to hell in a handbasket of ignorance.
t
@deacon. Are you for real? You are Aassuming there is a heaven and a hell, so by DEFAULT, you assume there is a god? What kind of wierd logic are you using? Oh, xtian logic. I get it. Zig-zag logic.
The strain was about the character of heaven and hell. I made a disclaimer setting aside the larger question. If there is no God, there is no point in discussing heaven and hell. Sorry if you missed the earlier posts where people were discussing how hell could be a better place than heaven.
Failure – your math may be wrong. Jesus said he came so that all men might be saved. Perhaps you are going to heaven and just haven't realized it yet.
@Bill – the operative word being 'might'. It does state in the Bible that there will be lots of 'wailing and knashing of teeth' – or something like that... But anywho, it basically indicated that there would more people going to hell than to heaven. Which seems to be a severe design flaw on God's part. Most of his creations are to be thrown in the 'soul-garbage-disposal' aka, Hell.
So now we're having a semantic discussion on the word "might"?
"So now we're having a semantic discussion on the word "might"?"
Seeing as only 33% of the people on this planet believe in your version of a god, that means the other 67% (over 4 billion people) won't be going to your heaven but based on your bible to hell for eternity. 😉
I tell you for certain that before you can get into God’s kingdom, you must be born not only by water, but by the Spirit. Humans give life to their children. Yet only God’s Spirit can change you into a child of God. Don’t be surprised when I say that you must be born from above. Only God’s Spirit gives new life. The Spirit is like the wind that blows wherever it wants to. You can hear the wind, but you don’t know where it comes from or where it is going.
"Seeing as only 33% of the people on this planet believe in your version of a god, that means the other 67% (over 4 billion people) won't be going to your heaven but based on your bible to hell for eternity. "
First off, no one can say who is and is not going to Hell. That's God's job. We can only go off of what Jesus said.
And that was: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." – Matthew 7:13-14.
This would indicate that your statistics (33% vs 67%) would, at the very least, support this position. But who knows?
I saw a great sign that so many Christians need to start realizing.
"Don't judge others because they sin differently than you do." Words to live by.
@Robert Brown – They have instruments that track wind currents.
True Believers Judge (aka discern not according to their own standard Matthew 7:1-2)
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." John 7:24 (Ephesians 5:11, 1 Corinthians 5:12)
"But he who is spiritual judges ALL things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." 1 Corinthians 2:15 (1 Corinthians 6:2-3; 10:15; 14:29, Romans 16:17)
Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? (Luke 12:57)
What is right?
The statutes of the Lord are right (Psalm 19:8).
Amen.
Remember there’s “nothing new under the sun”, “what is has been before and will be again”, as Kohelloth said (Ecclesiastes).
Consider the Hebrew psalm, which begins with these words: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Consider the words of the righteous man Job(e): “As sure as God lives, who has denied me justice.” (Job 27:1)
Consider the Hebrew psalm, which says: “The fool has said in their heart that there is no God.”
Long story—short, people have always struggled with matters of faith.
Moreover the only question ever posed in the Bible is whether a person will believe in the God of Abraham (YHWH) or the many other lesser gods and goddesses, which are subjugated to the realm of nature.
Will you accept that we were made by one, all-powerful God, who created the universe and everything in it (including us); will you submit to God’s rule in your life; and, will you live by God’s ethics and values?
Or will you pursue your own selfish desires, by any and all conceivable means?
As Joshua said: “As for me and my family, we will follow the Lord (YHWH).
We all have moments of doubt and weak faith. That’s not the issue. The issue is what is your decision? Will you follow God (monotheism) or other (polytheism)?
Post by 'Barry G.' contains several instances of the False Dichotomy fallacy and is Begging The Question repeatedly .
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Can I choose no-ism and enjoy the life that I live without talking to myself?
I choose door #3
Or will you pursue your own selfish desires, by any and all conceivable means?
Yes.
Barry G, you seem to think (believe) that the God of the bible actual exist. I find that rational people (once that look at it) do not actually believe in a God they mostly believe in a Religion (which is not the same thing).
How do you stand on that, do you believe in the God of the Bible or do you believe in the Religion?
The drop in those who never doubt the existence of god from 83% to 68% is on a path to the correct answer....0%......religion is sitting in the crosshairs of morality, science, and just common sense – it doesn't fare well at all.
The results also parallels the decline in the number of different religions globally....there used to be thousands....now there are just a handful of monotheisms left. Again closer to the true number.....0
Classic error. You presume the curve is linear. It is probably coiled.
Religion is a stinking coiler, so you aren't far off the mark Bill.
Bill Deacon said, "Classic error. You presume the curve is linear. It is probably coiled."
Yes, it IS coiled. Just like a SNAKE. A LYING snake. Sorta like the snake from the Genesis Fairy Tale.
Not clear lois are you saying doubt is coiled like a snake or faith is? AHAH! There's the rub. Which are you deceived by?
Christians, we are called to be witnesses for Christ and as such should not attack the atheists. We should feel pity for them. Think about it. They live pointless lives only to end up burning in hell. Their world is a sterile world were everything is in the black and white terms of cold logic. I wish we could reach them, but they have hardened their hearts. We are fortunate to have been chosen by God, and we need not add to the misery of those who were not. Yes, I feel pity for them.
I feel sorry for you that you think life is pointless and holds no joy. You obviously do not have children and do not get to experience the unconditional love and beauty of experiencing the beautiful world through their innocent eyes. I think life is a precious gift and we need to enjoy it at every possible moment....must be sad to have such a pathetic life you can not wait for it to end and hope there is something better out there....
If Heaven is full of Christards, I'm glad I'm going to Hell.
Blane
Christians, we are called to be witnesses for Christ and as such should not attack the atheists. We should feel pity for them. Think about it. They live pointless lives only to end up burning in hell
-----–
How do you know you've been "called" to be a witness? You've called yourself, because you're an ignorant and arrogant fool. And, tell me this, why would God create human beings that are destined to "burn in hell", as you say? Because there are many many people in this world who will never even have the opportunity to believe things as you do, because they will have never heard of the things you believe in.
@Blane
That's a funny way of being prideful, isn't that a sin by the way? Looks like you'll be joining the rest of us sinners in hell huh?
I smell a plant
Don't say that Chuckles. If hypocrisy is enough to send people to Hell, most Christians will be down there with us. I was hoping that Hell would be decidedly Christian free.
P.S. Is Hell supposed to be capitalized? Is it a proper noun? I think it is, as it's supposed to be a place, but I'm not sure.
@Rational,
I was actually thinking about it sort of. What would be the worst Hell you or I could end.ure? Being surrounded by Christians saying I told you so up in Heaven and having to do what is required up there for eternity right? So wouldn't that mean that atheists would get to go to Heaven because it'd be our Hell? If that's the case, wouldn't it really pis.s christians off that an atheist got to live their life how they wanted and still got to enter Heaven? It would be a fun little mind game to see who would be happier in Heaven, a place defined as eternal bli.ss.
Chuckles
Bliss and Christianity don't go together. I imagiine Hell would contain atheists, Frank Zappa and prost.itutes. That's where I want to go to.
Rational
Fair enough, but that doesn't sound like hell does it? Or at least the christian hell that gives comfort to all those out there who truly wish for others suffering. I find the whole notion of a heaven and hell very illogical as it separates like minded people into separate groups, which we've learned actually creates less tension and generally more happiness. Seriously though, hell sounds exactly how a christian would define heaven.
More of his creations are going to hell than going to heaven.
Republicans always say if a teacher has failing students – it's the TEACHER who's the FAILURE.
Confining this discussion to the characteristics of heaven and hell sets aside the question of God's existence. If the is a heaven and hell there must by default be a God. If there is a God, then he is all that is ultimately real, everything else is simply a manifestation of His being. To dwell in heaven then is to dwell in reality. To dwell in hell then is to exist in unreality or illusion. Existence in illusion is insanity, madness. Thus the prophet hath said "Better to be a servant int he Kingdom of God than a prince in hell."
@Bill
Can the same then be said if we confined the discussion to characteristics of Valhalla? Hades? Sorry, but your logic fails when actually really put to the test. Please try again.
You can call them whatever you like chuckles. You and Libertarian posit that hell or hades or whatever would be a better place than heaven, nirvana, take your pick. My argument is that, given these states or places exist, one of them is grounded in reality and the other in illusion. Only an insane person would opt for illusion over reality.
@Bill
I was simply discussing the mer.its of what a christian heaven would look like versus a hell and so far one was complete subju.gation where you are forced to hang out with creepy people who are always happy and the other one was hanging out with hoo.kers, ghandi and everyone else who wasn't in the right sect of christianity. The discussion wasn't whether they exist or not, it was the attributes of these non existent places. You decided to focus on the existence of these places as if it was the be all end all discussion ender when you clearly just missed the point entirely. so I'll say it again, please try again.
God does not throw people in hell. People choose hell of their own free will.
@Blane
Then I choose not to go to hell, now where am I going to go?
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:14
Amen.
"Blessed are those who do His commandments, "
Yet you're a proven liar who can't even follow the basic teachings of the bible. LOL!
@HeavenSent
All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
In the beginning, God created earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness.
And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely.
"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.
"Certainly," said man.
"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God. And He went away.
Bokonon says of his first book: "Of course it's trash"
LOL, who are you to claim that I'm lying when you can't even post under your original handle as you utilize so many to make it look as though there are more fools than your handful.
HS, how many people have you accused today of posting under more than one name?
Chuckles, we're not connecting. It's either an incapacity or an unwillingness. You hypothesis on the character of these two places, whether they exist or not, is unsound. I realize you are merely poking fun but I grasped at it in an attempt o have a serious discussion. By definition, heaven cannot be as you describe it, since it would cause you discomfort to be there. Likewise, hell cannot be a place of excellent music, broad minded people and easy saxual congress. My mistake was in thinking you were able to dialogue when all you really wanted was to make a joke.
HS has got her Super Special Crazy Face on today.
I laugh at you foolish non-believers. If you would only listen to my words of wisdom. It saddens me that some of you will perish by ignoring my words.
Amen.
Tom, you are just jealous of me and God. Take your blinders of and listen to my words.
Amen.
Chuckles, allow me to explain God as simply as I can, just for you. God created all for His pleasure. When Jesus comes back, all that doesn't please Him, perishes. No, ifs, ands, or buts about His truth. It's His ballpark ... and those that don't like His rules, can take their bat, ball, glove and leave. No eternity for them.
Tom I know you are one of the phoneys along with people at CNN trying to block Jesus's Truth.
Amen.
TT has the psychic abilities of knowing when the phony heavensent posts. Mmmhhhh, is it supernatural or is it purposely done to cause doubt?
Answer: I have no doubt that non-believers are liars, cheats, thieves that will do anything/everything to win at any cost ... because they know they are on the loosing team and like fat on a spit, they get burned in the eternal flames. No eternity for them.
Proverbs 1:7. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
I have no need for your scientists who are bought and paid for when I have God. Atheists are foolish and carnal and will perish. They know this truth so they plot against me.
Amen.
I have no doubt that I am wiser than the non-believers because God is in me and makes me greater.
Amen.
So, you've lost count, have you, HS? I know you accused Jen and me and now you're accusing someone else. How many more were there today? And it's only 3 pm!
It's always fun to see HeavenSent show how useless of a human being she is over and over again.
"I have no need for your scientists who are bought and paid for"
That's why you're using a computer invented by scientist, more proof you lie and don't understand even the basic ten commandments. LOL!
HS – are you aware that you are a paranoid schizophrenic? It's pretty obvious.....
Uh oh...Tom Tom and I both posted so we must be the same person right schizo?????
She does bring the crazy, doesn't she?
Blane want to be like christ? Good. Let me get my hammer and nails. Sick pup. How can you 'witness for a dead guy?
Blane want to be like christ? Good. Let me get my hammer and nails. Sick pup. How can you 'witness' for a dead guy?
LOL Tommie Tom. I didn't post the accusation. Hey, did I mention you folks to be the cowards of the world too?
HeavenSent the faults you see in other people are really the faults you have with in yourself or did you not understand the log in your eye story in the bible?
Oh was that the other HS? (you know the non-ccccrazzzyyyy one). I don't think so...you are the only schizo I'm aware of on this board 🙂
Are you denying that accused Jen and me of being one and the same earlier today?
What, exactly, have I done that was "cowardly"?
Non-believers, go back to posting to yourself using multiple handles and stealing other handles. My timer went off on my oven ... time to go.
Foolish cowards do not make it to heaven. Believers who have God in them are far wiser and do make it. Pitty you foolish ones.
Amen.
Can non-believers hear God's voice? I don't think so. Sad for you.
Amen.
HS, there are many other fora in the world that require you to register. If you are so concerned that others are "stealing" handles, why do you post on a forum that allows it?
HS -maybe if you weren't always eating someone might love you (and if you took some meds too....)
(sigh)
Oh Bill are you sad because the dialogue isn't an intelligent debate between two parties wanting to learn more and enlighten each other as to why we believe as we do?
There's no such thing with heaven sent. If you told her you were Catholic she would tell you that you aren't a true Christian and you are going to h-ll. No Ifs,ands or buts. End of discussion.
DAMMIT CHUCKLES!!! If I end up in heaven, surrounded by all these godtards, I am going to be royally pîssed.
If I will have any of that free will while in heaven, I plan on raising a little hell. I hear that Virgin Mary chick is into kink. I also plan on riding an angel till her wings fall off.
Strangely, I'm more concerned about you Jen. HS I can understand where her thinking comes from even though I may take issue with some of it and TT I know is simply an agitator but you seem to have some really magnificent issues on fire. A well adjusted person wouldn't feel the need to personally nuke someone like HS
Really Bill? So the fact that she takes pleasure in saying that my one and three year old are going to burn in h-ll for all eternity is thinking that you can understand? I remember when she said that. All I was saying is that agnostics can be good parents too and that's what her response was. I suppose because that's her faith it is okay to say that? Sorry, but you either do not have children and do not love your children like I do.
She tells everyone on this forum they are going to h-ll unless they are the same Christian denomination as her, she blames atheists for getting her fired, etc. She is just delusional. Of course normally I would feel very sorry for someone like her but she is so horrible I can not.
And if you think it's okay to tell someone their small children are going to burn in h-ll there is something seriously wrong with you too.
HeavenSent
If you are going to give people the bad news that they are going to Hell you should temper it with some good news. The good news Jen is that wherever you are you will be there for what seems to be an eternity. Time flies when you’re having fun !
Thanks Fred!!! I don't care if someone tells me I'm going to h-ll but small children??? That is just perverse in my opinion. It's like telling someone that you hope their kids get cancer....just disgusting and WAY over the line. But me? I'm an adult...i am fine with someone thinking I am headed there for eternity...I will just hang out with the people on this blog 🙂
@Primewonk
Blew your mind right? Heaven sounds like the worst thing ever.
@Bill
Yes, I was poking fun at places like Heaven and Hell as I find to be just as real as Hades, Valhalla, etc..., my "hypothesis" as you put it was that Heaven sounds like more of a hell to me than anything else. I know you posit that if god exists and there's a heaven then being there you would automatically be eternally happy and blah blah blah but you do realize the simplicity and believe that by living forever in a blissful state seems just like a made up story right?
Blane
God does not throw people in hell. People choose hell of their own free will.
-----
Based on what? And, how is it that you are so special that you know this to be a certainty?
Primewonk
Bill
Your views are no greater than those of believers. Both of you have a vision of existence before and after this brief moment. You embrace your own vision and must reject God as the mind cannot function in a manner known contrary to survival. Your level of protest is indicative of denial that God may well exist. There is a reason even the Neanderthal worshiped.
Based on this thread the godless prefer anything but eternal love, peace and joy in perfect unity with Christ. What we know about God, Heaven and Hell basically comes from the Bible for Christians. This Bible confirms that we make a choice that is reflected in our very being as to where we truly belong. Some belong with God and others do not. Regardless if God is real or only in the mind of the believer that persons life reflects their core beliefs (who they really are).
If there is a God there is no doubt the plan as revealed gives ample opportunity for every modern man to reflect where they belong. If there is no God there is ample opportunity for every man to reflect where they belong. There is no getting around Gods plan (real or imagined).
@fred
The core beliefs of humans being inherently useless and unworthy, or incapable, of good is a belief that should be rejected. This has been pointed out to you multiple times, but you refuse to see how devaluing your beliefs are.
Hawaii Guest
Those core beliefs generally apply toward pleasing God or following Gods commands. Our history is clear as to our capacity to kill others, hate, envy, and prideful behavior etc. The Bible simply reflects reality as to man and reality as to our relationship with God.
God or no god, Bible or no Bible we are one nasty bunch.
@fred
And once again you ignore the fact that your doctrine teaches that man is not only capable of doing bad things, but that man is incapable of doing good without belief in god. If you're going to respond, at least do so honestly.
Hawaii Guest
It is not doctrine it is the way of the world the way of man. The Bible made it clear the Chosen Ones were to separate themselves from this world. Throughout the Bible we see them attempting to separate but always slipping back into the ways of the world. This is no different than what we actually see in the world around us. In Iran they try and force the ways of God upon the people but the people appear just as nasty.
This is why Jesus said only God is good and that is the truth. Jesus also said all things are possible through God. Well, even proclaimed Christians appear just like the rest of the world. This is why the only way is to die to self and live as Christ. The problem is self not the Bible.
Our garbage will not be found in the new heaven and earth because it is polluted by this world. Look at the Catholic Church and see what man has once again done with the house of God. The proof you need is in your face not in the Bible. What does the Bible say is stored up in heaven? The fruits of the Spirit NOT the stuff of this world.
@fred
Once again, you use a tangent to disguise (poorly) that you didn't ven try to address the actual point of my post. Let me try to make this clearer.
Do you agree with the doctrine (supported from a verse in your unholy book) that those who don't believe in your god are incapable of doing good things?
Hawaii Guest
No, I made it very clear what the doctrine is when I quoted Jesus:” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good.” The basic doctrine is that all have sinned and fall short none are good or worthy of God. It does not matter if you are atheist or Christian our only cover before God is Christ and nothing else.
Saul of Tarsus was a murdering Pharisees. God used him to set up his Church and launch Christianity. In the same way God commands that we let the tares and wheat grow together until harvest because we do not want to pull up any that may just have a change of heart.
Now, let us go back to the Old Testament where the story line is just how bad the Chosen Ones were and how the continually broke the Law. The picture is clear that since Adam all of us are filthy rags.
What you are missing is that God is Holy and sin is an offense against God. What you are missing is the justice that requires penalty for sin. It is not an evil God that will judge sin but a righteous and Holy God that cannot allow the presence of sin.
Perhaps you refer to the doctrine where God will separate good and evil at the final judgment. It is clear that there are those that will have an eternity with God and those that will face eternal separation. The exact composition of those eternities is often symbolic as in fire and brimstone or streets of Gold. There is a relationship between what is done on earth with what one was given in determining various final dispositions of the souls.