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Key Catholic group drops support for White House contraception plan
The Obama administration wants to require insurance companies to provide free contraception coverage.
June 18th, 2012
11:24 AM ET

Key Catholic group drops support for White House contraception plan

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) – The Obama administration’s key Catholic ally on its controversial plan to require health insurers to provide free contraceptive coverage is dropping support for the plan, potentially complicating the president’s relations with Catholics in an election year.

The Catholic Health Association, which comprises 2,000 Catholic hospitals, health systems and related organizations, said Friday that although it had initially supported what the White House called a compromise on the contraception issue, it is now “deeply concerned” about the plan and says the White House “has not relieved our initial concerns.”

Many Catholic groups expressed opposition to the Obama administration’s proposal to require employers to provide free contraception coverage to their employees. Although the plan exempted churches, other religiously affiliated employers - including colleges and hospitals - were not exempt.

In the face of that opposition, the Department of Health and Human Services tweaked its original rule in February to require health insurers, not employers, to cover the cost of contraception coverage, reasoning that would prevent Catholics instructions from having to finance such coverage.

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The so-called compromise won support from certain Catholic groups, most significantly the Catholic Health Association, which calls itself the nation’s largest group of nonprofit health care providers.

“The Catholic Health Association is very pleased with the White House announcement that a resolution has been reached that protects the religious liberty and conscience rights of Catholic institutions,” Sister Carol Keehan, president and chief executive officer of the Catholic Health Association, said in a February statement.

But on Friday, the Catholic Health Association sounded a much different line, saying in a letter to the agency that “We remain deeply concerned … with the approach the Administration has taken with respect to contraceptive services, especially abortifacient drugs and sterilization.”

The administration denies that its contraception mandate covers abortifacients - drugs that cause abortions - but some socially conservative groups disagree.

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In its letter, the Catholic Health Association urged the administration to broaden its exemption on the contraceptive mandate to include different kinds of religiously affiliated institutions.

The American Roman Catholic bishops have steadfastly criticized the Health and Human Services rule. The Catholic Health Association’s support for the rule gave the Obama some Catholic political cover in the face of such attacks.

Catholic voters represent one of the largest swing voting blocs in the nation, voting with the winning presidential candidate in every election since the 1970s.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: 2012 Election • Catholic Church • Health care • Politics

soundoff (1,412 Responses)
  1. ajoseph1234

    Abortion in any form is a blight on the fabric of mankind. How many champions of abortion would not be here today to champion abortion if it had become legal prior to 1973?

    June 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • miketofdal

      that's likely the most illogical argument against abortion that I've ever heard.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      How many backyard abortions were performed prior to 1973? Do you not see the correlation here? It's a matter of if a woman can't get an abortion the legal way and wants one bad enough, she will find a way. Backyard abortions are highly dangerous, so would you not rather see them regulated (can't be performed after the end of the first tri-mester) and a woman's life be saved?

      June 18, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • Chris R

      Abortions were legal prior to 1973. It just depended on what state you lived in. The Roe v. Wade decision made it legal in the country as a whole. Please come to the table with some facts next time.

      June 18, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • bam

      Religion is the #1 killer of mankind. explain why if it is all about peace and love.
      what did the Inca and Mayans do that was so wrong?? and why did some "GOD" declare them heretics?

      June 18, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
  2. johnmenacherjr@rocketmail.com

    One reason and one only. The Catholic church is ling up more 'Souls" for their wonderful election of a MOrmon bishop. WOW cult worship by the Catholic church! nothing to see here.catholics forget they are blessed with one gift called free will it comes from the creator and are going to be pushed to vote for bishop romney – nothing new.

    June 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
  3. farleyjc

    It is not the taxpayers responsibility to pay for your birth control and it is not the governments job to force insurance companies to provide the same. Vote Romney!!!

    June 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Alina1

      Romney already has this thing in Massachusetts, where they have Affordable Health Care.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • Chris R

      1) The taxpayers are not paying for the birth control. Either the employers or insurance companies would be. You should note that *no* insurance company of any significant size has voiced any concern with this plan. They are behind it.
      2) The government has been telling insurance companies what they have to cover and how to legally run their business for decades now. This happens on a state and federal level. This is not some new intrusion.

      You can vote for Romney, I'm going to vote for facts instead of gut feelings though.

      June 18, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
    • Brian

      Obandoo really shot him self in the foot lmao. I dont think our president knows how many catholics we have in this country. The last number i have in my head is 70million...hmmm thats not a big number at all Obandoo since your imagination makes you think that the gays and the illegals will save your as& this November.

      ROMENY 2012 BABYYYY

      June 18, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • bam

      mittens was FOR this in Massachusets mr etcha sketch fooled a fool.

      June 18, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
  4. DIaneRPCFL

    Simply and to the point: If altar boys could get pregnant, birth control would be a church sacrament.

    June 18, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • Mary

      Now, in some churches, there are altar girl.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • Vance

      Oh hell yes, you said it!

      June 18, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
  5. Alina1

    Catholic church doesn't talk for Catholic women, its just that Catholic women have no voice.

    June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • crbianb

      Yes, the Catholic women do have a voice. This country is based off of freedom of religion. If the church (any church for that matter) teachings do not agree with a persons beliefs, they are totally free to leave that church and join a church whose teachings are closer to their beliefs.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
  6. Leroy

    I suppose Catholic women will have to practice the fine art of holding an aspirin between their knees and exclaiming "I have a headache!"

    June 18, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • Vincent

      Fantastic the Catholic Church is siding with the same people who declare war on Christmas, Women, and Peace. But it does not suprise me since the biggest hobby the Catholic Church is molesting Altar Boys.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • blackhawkmom

      Exactly. Why any women are Catholic is beyond me.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • erunestruzzastudios

      Or they could do what your mother chose to do. Have partial birth abortion, a procedure that aborts your brain just before birth......

      June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
  7. Doc Vestibule

    Every egg is sacred.
    Life begins at ovulation.
    Women should be ashamed of killing a potential human once a month.

    June 18, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • Leroy

      You ought to be ashamed for posting an ignorant comment....

      June 18, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • Matt

      LoL 10/10 for your excellent use of sarcasm.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • Matt

      Which apparently went right over Leeroy's head.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Leroy, that whooshing sound you hear is the point and the joke flying way over your head.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • linda

      God gave man a brain. God also gave us the ability and the responsibility to breed. So recently, the man who is to said to have fathered 30 children with 11 women.....is man's sinful action not God's will. God does not control every action of man. I

      June 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • Huebert

      Doc for the win.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • escher7

      Don't feel bad Leroy. I thought he was serious too until I read the other posts.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • Matt

      Actually we don't consider that life, doesn't have it's own distinct DNA yet as it will at the moment of conception.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Matt
      And yet Catholics preach about the Sin of Onanism sending us all to hell despite the fact that one's clum baby doesn't have unique DNA.
      Anything se.xual done for purposes other than procreation is sin to the Vatican.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • Collin

      Every sperm is sacred.
      Every sperm is great.
      If a sperm is wasted,
      God gets quite irate......

      June 18, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
  8. Doc Vestibule

    Why do Catholics oppose birth control?
    The condemnation of birth control stems from their belief that God wants humans to spew forth as many cro/tch critters as possible in order to populate heaven and to "be fruitful and multiply" (gen 1:28).
    To purposely countermand God's will to breed like rabbits is to lie to the Holy Spirit in the same way that Ananias and Saphira did in Acts 5 : 1-11 when they held back a portion of their gift to God. God's slaying of that couple is one of the few instances of divine wrath in the New Testament.
    They also believe that many forms of birth control, like IUDs and the pill, are actually forms of abortion and therefore consti.tute murder.
    There is also a heavy emphasis on self-denial as a path to righteousness amongst Catholics, this stemming from Matthew 16:24 in which Jesus says "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
    For Catholics in terrible marriages, God allows separation (and therefore lifelong abstinence) but not divorce.
    It was the apostle Paul's opinion that it was far better to be single and abstinent, but marry if you can't control your loins.
    "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)
    There is also the old fear of witches and warlocks and their ungodly potions which God condemns in Gal. 5:20 and Apoc. 9:21. Today's sorcerers are pharmaceutical biochemists.
    But most of all, the scripture cited by Catholics in regards to contraception is Genesis 38:9.
    In that uplifting story, God commanded a fellow named Onan to impregnate his sister in law.
    They repeatedly got jiggy, but Onan kept pulling out at the critical moment. For this transgression, God killed him.

    June 18, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Vincent

      Where in the Bible does it state about Molesting Altar Boys??? Does it bother you that the Church is spending a whole lot of money covering it up, then taking Responsibility?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Vincent
      I'm about as far from Catholic as you can get (much to the chagrin of my in-laws).
      I'm just posting some of the Biblically based arguments I've heard as rationalizations for demonizing birth control.
      I had one child and then got a vasectomy, which I feel is perfectly moral, ethical and responsible.
      Catholics tell me I'm going to hell for that decision (amongst various other reasons).

      June 18, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
  9. thomas

    Catholic organization is just a front for child molesters – so I'm not sure they are the supporters you would really want anyway.

    June 18, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
  10. Hypatia

    Xians behaving like dictatorial morons. *yawn* what else is new?

    June 18, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • gerald

      Hmmmm – Seems most of the dictators in the last century have been atheists and have slaughtered 10s or hundreds of millions of Christians. Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia..... Who should we really worry about with regard to dicatorships?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      But Gerald, those dictators were following in the footsteps of the god from the Old Testament. Ridiculous rules with harsh penalties, genocide, misogyny, infanticide, ruling with an iron fist, taking land that "rightfully" belonged to them. Christians seem to love that god so I'm not sure why you denounce the actions of those dictators.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Communist leaders like Pol Pot and Stalin would not have been charismatic enough to gain converts had they not learned the discourse of dogmatic persuasion from religious inst/itutions.
      Pol Pot spent 8 years at a Catholic school in Phnom Penh and Stalin 5 years at a Russian orthodox seminary. Historians have noted their speaking and writing styles ape those of the Church in being 'declamatory and repet.itive, with liturgical overtones”.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • gerald

      A God you do not know so in order to justify your hatred of him you twist who he is. It would be pointless of me to point out your erros in thinking as you would not be open to a true understanding of God anyway.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • ME II

      @gerald,
      I would be worried about people who think we shouldn't think for ourselves and submit to the authority, be it a state, fascism, or a religion, theocracy, or the state masquerading as the people, communism.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • gerald

      Oh you wise and benevolent atheist, Doc. I would certainly trust you with my care when I am in a nursing home. Or the moral use of my tax dollars. It is just plain silly to blame the actions of atheists on religion.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      Have you even read the Old Testament? Please tell me where I am wrong. Please, I would love to hear it.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • ME II

      @gerald,
      "A God you do not know so in order to justify your hatred of him you twist who he is."
      In all honestly, you can't claim to "know" Him any more than anyone else, so this seems a moot point.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • gerald

      MEII, ah yes, the religous are obviously unable to think for themselves because they don't think the way you do. It is easy to put people down isn't it. Elevate yourself in that manner. The religous must be less intelligent and unable to think. With such thinking I am sure you are all full of tolerance as the atheists dictators in the last 100 years have been.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • gerald

      Jac, do you belive in sin? Do you believe in just war? That man is wicked in his heart and needs to be purified? If not then there again would be no point. The slaying you decry in the Old Testament were not unjustified and brought about a great purpose. The redemtion of those who choose God. We all deserve death.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • ME II

      @gerald,
      "...the religous are obviously unable to think for themselves..."
      whoa, I don't think I said that and definitely didn't mean that. I was talking about types of government that commit atrocities, not their subjects.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      Remember the story where some kids called a man of god bald-head, and god had a bears come and rip those kids to pieces? I'll let that sink in. Children, whose only crime was doing what normal kids do. The Flood, murdering innocent children and people who had no clue what was going to happen just because they were going about living their lives (that's exactly what the Bible says). Sanctioned ra-pe and murder of animals, women, and children. Ridiculous laws like "don't wear any clothes that have two different fabrics woven together." You don't think he is a ruthless dictator?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Gerald
      The people you mentioned sought to eliminate traditional religions from their kingdoms, they did so in order to divert the common man’s fervour to their own cults of personality.
      They wielded their people’s predilection for faith like a weapon.
      Atheism is not the prime cause for these tragic regimes – the misdirection of faith is.
      Like religion, they demanded blind obedience and obsequious submission from their followers. They tolerated no free-thinkers and enforced dogmatism – a trick they learned from their religious educations.
      Faith is not a virtue! The willing cessation of rational inquiry in favour of accepting dogmatic, rote answers can, has and will again lead to the proliferation of regimes like the ones you mention.

      "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".
      The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942

      June 18, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
  11. mickey1313

    The CHO wants to deny choice to there employees, sad but that is the way Christianity is, do as i say or to he ll with you. Theists make me sick.

    June 18, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
    • The Knight of God

      Well Mickey... you could just quit if it interferes with your s exual time 🙂 We just don't want to have to pay for your immoral lifestyle

      June 18, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
    • gerald

      Noone is stopping them from buying contraceptives. Does something have to be free for it to be a choice? I want nabisco crakers. It is not a choice unless the grocery store gives them for free? What is taking away choice is forcing religion to buy something for it's employees that is morally objectionable to the organizations tennants. You are twisted. Evil is good and good is evil to you.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      Knight of God, the insurance companies pay for it, not the church. Why is that so hard to grasp?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • The Knight of God

      Again, why should they pay for it? just go to the store and buy some... you do not need someone to buy them for you.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Knight: What makes you think that using contraceptives is immoral? Does the fact that the planet has 7 billion people on it not make you think at all that maybe just maybe we've already over-populated? How is it the churches place to tell a person what they can and can't do in regards to their own personal body? The church and you christards need to stay out of peoples bedrooms and deal with your own lives.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • The Knight of God

      @Truthprevails, Thank you so much for saying that because I completely agree. I say we should stay out of people's bedrooms and allow them to pay out of THEIR pocket to have s ex. Insurance companies should not have to pay for your responsibilities. I mean are they going to create videos off of this and make money in return? I think not. So why should they? There's not beneficial for this. You talk about overpopulation, maybe if people had control and keep stuff in their pants or closing their legs, we'd have less to worry about. Ever thought about that?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • JAnGA

      Just how is choice being denied? The church doesn't want to pay for whatever choice female employees make that is against their teachings. Women employed by them can still make the choice to take the contraceptives, they just have to pay for them themselves. So again, how is the church denying them choice.

      Asking the insurance company of the chuch instution pay for it is just a twist of words and legalese to get the church to go against their faith and pay the for the contraceptives through deception. Do you relaly think the insurance company will pay for it out of the goodness of their heart, or will instead hide the cost as a new fee to the church's insurance. How is that not impinging on freedom of religion.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      But insurance companies cover ED pills. Why are you not up in arms about that? Contraceptives actually have a far broader more beneficial use than ED pills.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • Andrew M.

      @ Knight of God,

      Good luck getting people to keep it in their pants. If that worked, we wouldn't have 7 billion people to begin with.

      June 18, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
  12. Colin

    A few questions should help highlight the rationality of Catholicism:

    The completely absurd theory that all 7,000,000,000 human beings on the planet are simultaneously being supervised 24 hours a day, every day of their lives by an immortal, invisible being for the purposes of reward or punishment in the “afterlife” comes from the religion of:

    (a) The ancient Celts who were very superst.itious;

    (b) Bronze Age Egyptians who knew no better;

    (c) Pre-Colombian Aztecs with no scientific education; or

    (d) Modern Catholics

    You are about 70% likely to believe the entire Universe began less than 10,000 years ago with only one man, one woman and a talking snake if you are:

    (a) a reptile handler who has severe mental issues;

    (b) a five year old boy who just read a fairytale;

    (c) a scientific fraud; or

    (d) a Catholic

    I believe that an all-knowing being, powerful enough to create the entire cosmos and its billions of galaxies, watches me have $ex to make sure I don't do anything "naughty" like protect myself from disease with a condom. I am

    (a) A victim of child molestation

    (b) A r.ape victim trying to recover

    (c) A mental patient with paranoid delusions

    (d) A Catholic

    I have convinced myself that gay $ex is a choice and not genetic, but then have no explanation as to why only gay people have ho.mo$exual urges. I am

    (a) A gifted psychologist

    (b) A well respected geneticist

    (c) A highly educated sociologist

    (d) A Catholic with the remarkable ability to ignore inconvenient facts.

    I honestly believe that, when I think silent thoughts like, “please god, help me pass my exam tomorrow,” some invisible being is reading my mind and will intervene and alter what would otherwise be the course of history in small ways to help me. I am

    (a) a delusional schizophrenic;

    (b) a naïve child, too young to know that that is silly

    (c) an ignorant farmer from Sudan who never had the benefit of even a fifth grade education; or

    (d) your average Catholic

    Millions and millions of Catholics believe that bread and wine turns into the actual flesh and blood of a dead Jew from 2,000 years ago because:

    (a) there are obvious visible changes in the condiments after the Catholic priest does his hocus pocus;

    (b) tests have confirmed a divine presence in the bread and wine;

    (c) now and then their god shows up and confirms this story; or

    (d) their religious convictions tell them to blindly accept this completely fvcking absurd nonsense.

    The only discipline known to often cause people to kill others they have never met and/or to commit suicide in its furtherance is:

    (a) Architecture;

    (b) Philosophy;

    (c) Archeology; or

    (d) Religion

    What is it that most differentiates science and all other intellectual disciplines from Catholicism:

    (a) Catholicism tells people not only what they should believe, but what they MUST believe under threat of “burning in hell” or other of divine retribution, whereas science, economics, medicine etc. has no “sacred cows” in terms of doctrine and go where the evidence leads them;

    (b) Catholicism can make a statement, such as “God is comprised of God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit”, and be totally immune from experimentation and challenge, whereas science can only make factual assertions when supported by considerable evidence;

    (c) Science and the scientific method is universal and consistent all over the World whereas Catholicism is regional and a person’s Catholicism, no matter how deeply held, is clearly nothing more than geographical upbringing; or

    (d) All of the above.

    If I am found wandering the streets flagellating myself, wading into a filth river, mutilating my child’s genitals or kneeling down in a church believing that a being is somehow reading my inner thoughts and prayers, I am likely driven by:

    (a) a deep psychiatric issue;

    (b) an irrational fear or phobia;

    (c) a severe mental degeneration caused by years of drug abuse; or

    (d) my religious belief.

    Who am I? I don’t pay any taxes. I never have. Any money my organization earns is tax free and my own salary is also tax free, at the federal, state and local level. Despite contributing nothing to society, but still enjoying all its benefits, I feel I have the right to tell others what to do. I am

    (a) A sleazy Wall Street banker

    (b) A mafia boss

    (c) A drug pusher; or

    (d) A Catholic Priest

    What do the following authors all have in common – Jean Paul Sartre, Voltaire, Denis Diderot, Victor Hugo, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, René Descartes, Francis Bacon, John Milton, John Locke, and Blaise Pascal:

    (a) They are among the most gifted writers the World has known;

    (b) They concentrated on opposing dogma and opening the human mind and spirit to the wonders of free thought and intellectual freedom;

    (c) They were intimidated by the Catholic Church and put on the Church’s list of prohibited authors; or

    (d) All of the above.

    The AIDS epidemic will kill tens of millions in poor African and South American countries before we defeat it. Condoms are an effective way to curtail its spread. As the Pope still has significant influence over the less educated masses in these parts of the World, he has exercised this power by:

    (a) Using some of the Vatican’s incomprehensible wealth to educate these vulnerable people on health family planning and condom use;

    (b) Supporting government programs that distribute condoms to high risk groups;

    (c) Using its myriad of churches in these regions as “boots on the ground” to distribute condoms; or

    (d) Scaring people into NOT using condoms, based upon his disdainful and aloof view that it is better that a person die than go against the Vatican’s position on contraceptive use.

    June 18, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • Huebert

      Colin

      Your giant wall of text, while better written, is just as annoying as the one put up by kindness.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • Colin

      Thanks Hubert, can I safely assume that you do not disagree with its contenct.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:50 pm |
    • Huebert

      That would be a correct as.sumption. I just hate repeated blocks of text, It's a pet peeve of mine. Feel free to ignore me. The A/C is out in my building and it's making me snappy.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:56 pm |
    • SouthernCelt

      As a Catholic Celt, I find your waste of bandwidth ignorant, uninformed, and abusive.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • GREAT

      SIMPLY A GREAT POST!!!!!!

      THAANK YOU FOR POINTIN GOUT HIW SILLY THEY ALL ARE. (READ A=L=L RELIGIONS)

      June 18, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • Doobie Wah

      SouthernCelt

      As a Catholic Celt, I find your waste of bandwidth ignorant, uninformed, and abusive.
      -------------------------------------
      Colin get under your skin little boy ?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • Holier Than Thou Much?

      SouthernCelt, isn't it time for a drink?

      June 18, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • bias bias everywhere and not a truth to speak

      long post. get a job!!!

      June 18, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
  13. The Knight of God

    Ronald Regan once said (And I am paraphrasing) I find it funny that the people who are already in the world are deciding whether or not an unborn baby lives or dies... Hmm... wonder how the future person would have responded to his mother deciding to kill him/her if it were possible... better yet what if that mother's past could be changed and she was there to see her mother aborting her before she had a chance at life... I think that would persaude people a whole lot more than mere words and imaginative minds. Too bad that's not possible.

    June 18, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      IT'S REAGAN, you moron.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • chubby rain

      Up to half of human pregnancies are spontaneously aborted. If the death of a fetus is murder, God is the biggest murderer of them all.

      Source: http://www.emcom.ca/health/abortion.shtm

      June 18, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Does it occur to you that women who have never had or would even consider an abortion for themselves believe that the choice as to whether to continue or end a pregnancy before the viability of the fetus outside the woman's body should belong to no one else but the woman who is pregnant? What possible justification do you have to believe that you should dictate to anyone else what she does about her own pregnancy or her own body? You don't have any. None. You don't get to remove the rights of others when they become pregnant, and the fetus doesn't have rights that trump those of a woman who's already born and living.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
    • gerald

      Chubs,

      God did not cause the spontaneous abortions. Man's sins affected our nature and caused them. So you are quite incorrect in your analysis. Had man not sinned there would have been no spontaneous abortions. But you would rather deny sin and then point the finger at God. But God is the author of life and when one dies that soul, if accepting of God goes to be with him. So death is not a problem. Murder is. God does not glory in the death of men. Men do and that is why murder is wrong. Evil is a desire of the heart of wicked men.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • SPA Knight

      Great movie on a woman who's mother attempted to abort her and her twin brother. It's called October Baby and it's a very moving and true story.The baby boy died soon after birth while the girl grew up to be a woman who eventually found her birth mother and confronted her. Very powerful film about human relationships and the horror of abortion.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So your personal understanding of abortion a "horror", Spayed, comes from a movie?

      For some women, abortion is a difficult choice, one that causes them sadness and regret. For others, terminating a pregnancy is a relief and involves no regret at all. The point is, you don't have any say about it, anymore than I have a say in your decision to get snipped.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      gerald, you are completely nuts. And completely ignorant of biology.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • cedar rapids

      sorry gerald but god put the process into effect. If your mind if you had a kid its a blessing from god, if you lose the kid its because its all your fault, for once in your life actually hold your diety accountable.
      If god exists hes a nasty evil minded egotistical SOB that doesnt deserve worship.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:42 pm |
    • sam stone

      Riiiighhht, Gerald...man's "sins"....

      June 18, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • Doobie Wah

      You quoted Regan ?
      Wow.
      Regan who couldnt keep up with his teleprompter,
      so none of his speaches made any sence.

      Regan, who over a live microphone said the bombing of The Soviet Union
      starts in 5 minutes.

      Regan, who treated the white house like a movie set.
      Makeup !

      June 18, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • Holier Than Thou Much?

      The same Reagan that the right is trying to turn into a saint. Remember, he turned this into a debtor nation and nearly financially destroyed Ja.pan, so he moved on to China.

      June 18, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
  14. The Knight of God

    This is an old fight over whether its right to kill an innocent child... you'd think the answer was obvious. Since when did anyone have that right to take a life? Let's legalize murder of old people, homeless, and all those misfits who slow our society down. Its still "abortion". Their lives are no longer deemed worthy of air so let's terminate them altogether... people with the mentality that abortion is right is no different than Hitler.

    June 18, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
    • chubby rain

      Hitler, the Christian?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Not just xtian but Roman Catholic too.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
    • Huebert

      I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and sh!t a better argument.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:40 pm |
    • The Knight of God

      @Chubby Rain Hitler called himself a Christian doesn't mean he was one lol I could call myself Superman, doesn't mean I can fly...
      @huebert I think your comment invalidates that.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Idiot, "abortion" can only occur before birth. Babies are already born. Since you seem confused about it, so are the elderly and the mentally and physically challenged. All have rights under the law, as do women who are pregnant. Their rights trump those of a fetus. You seem to believe that making contraceptives more difficult to get would somehow prevent abortions. How do you, in your crazy brain, imagine that will happen?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
    • BRC

      Abortion and killing a person who is already alive are not the same thing, and it is not a valid comparison. In early stage abortion, I don't see anyone here supporting late term, there is actually a substantial statistical chance that the "baby" was never going to be born anyway, due to natural issues. IT's not a guaranteed life, it's a potential life- that has to be weighed differently, because it is different. That you don't value existing life more than potential life concerns me.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      That would help society immensely, kill everyone with a below average iq. Within 2 generations we would likely have a colony on mars and no more wars.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
    • Huebert

      It's pointless to argue with someone who, as a premise of their argument, says you are the same as Hitler. If you would like an actual discussion I am open to one, but drop the grandstanding, It's transparent and annoying.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      So a woman/girl gets ra.ped by either an unknown assailant or by a relative and becomes pregnant as a result and you think she should have to carry on with that pregnancy? What about if the Mother's life is at risk? Abortion is a personal matter and is between a woman and her Doctor. This should not be an issue at all considering legal abortions can't be done past the end of the first tri-mester. There is one other factor to consider...if a woman wants an abortion bad enough, she will find a way (backyard abortions do occur and are more costly/dangerous than a legal abortion is).

      June 18, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • ME II

      Odd that a person with a military related pseudonym, in apparent service of "God", would be arguing in this debate at all. Isn't "Knight of God" a bit of an oxymoron?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
    • Fearless Freep

      Sorta like how Republicans and Christians feel about gays, huh ?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
  15. A Catholic

    Glad to see them taking a stand.

    June 18, 2012 at 11:55 am |
    • Bet

      You're glad to see women's reproductive rights taken away because some rich old men still think s.ex is sinful?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • Topher

      Bet

      "You're glad to see women's reproductive rights taken away because some rich old men still think s.ex is sinful?"

      So you think it's ok to murder?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Topher

      Contraception isn't murder. Unless you consider not planting seeds herbicide.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:06 pm |
    • Topher

      Huebert
      "Contraception isn't murder. Unless you consider not planting seeds herbicide."

      Oral contraception can be murder. All versions of The Pill have an abortifaciant in it ... which means you might get pregnant and THEN the fetus would die.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • sam stone

      Topher: Go to any police station in the country and tell them you want to report a murder. Then tell them that it is an abortion. See how far that gets you.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
    • chubby rain

      @ Topher - Up to half of human pregnancies are spontaneously aborted. If the death of a fetus is murder, God is the biggest murderer of them all.

      Source: http://www.emcom.ca/health/abortion.shtml

      June 18, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Topher

      "All versions of The Pill have an (abortifacient) in it". You are either a lier or are tragically misinformed. Oral contraceptives prevent an egg from attaching to the uterine wall.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
    • Topher

      Forget civil law. I'm talking moral law here. If you are willfully taking a human life, how is it NOT murder?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
    • Topher

      "Oral contraceptives prevent an egg from attaching to the uterine wall."

      Isn't that after the sperm enters the egg?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:22 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Forget civil law. I'm talking moral law here. If you are willfully taking a human life, how is it NOT murder?"

      Murder is a term in civil law.

      If willful taking a human life is murder, I suppose true Christians would refuse military service.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
    • sam stone

      Also, Topher, non-christians are not subject to christian moral law, just as non-muslims are not subject the the moral law of islam

      June 18, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • Huebert

      Topher

      Yes it is. Medically speaking, pregnancy does not begin with fertilization, it begins when the fertilized egg implants in the uterus, where it then begins to grow. The reasons for this are that: A) Most, over half, fertilized eggs pass naturally out of the body, and B) Until implantation The egg is literally a single cell.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
    • Topher

      "If willful taking a human life is murder, I suppose true Christians would refuse military service."

      Some do, and that's their right. But remember, there's a difference between murder and killing. Things during war is killing.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      Actually, moral laws are universal. Yes, they come from God, but you don't need the Bible to know lying and murder are wrong. God's law is written on your heart whether you believe in Him or not.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
    • sam stone

      "But remember, there's a difference between murder and killing. Things during war is killing."

      You just said that willfull taking a human life is murder. Now you are making exceptions. Sounds like a real solid morality you got there.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Forgetting the number of other uses for the pill? The fact that it helps prevent endometriosis; cystic ovaries; it helps regulates a woman's cycle; it can help in the prevention of breast cancer...the bottom line is the Catholic church doesn't care about women, they care about taking the world back a century and having absolute control on it. If you don't want to use contraception...don't...quite simple. However you don't get to tell other people what they can and can't do with their personal bodies.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • sam stone

      murder is wrong, but killing is not?

      if all morality comes from god, which god do you speak of?

      had any pork lately?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "You just said that willfull taking a human life is murder. Now you are making exceptions. Sounds like a real solid morality you got there."

      So if someone breaks into your home in order to harm you or your wife you wouldn't defend yourself?

      June 18, 2012 at 12:55 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      By the same degree, abortion isn't murder. It isn't even killing (both of those require TAKING a life. Abortion PREVENTS a potential life from becoming a complete life.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • sam stone

      Also, Topher, moral laws are not limited to lying and murder.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • sam stone

      topher: of course i would. tell us how dropping bombs on civilians is justified in war

      June 18, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Topher, you don't even understand the correct uses of the terms; why should anyone not simply laugh at your opinions when they're so obviously ill-informed?

      Look up "fetus". Then try finding "embryo". And "blastocyst". In fact, why don't you just go back to high school and retake biology? It's pretty clear you failed it.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • Topher

      "Also, Topher, moral laws are not limited to lying and murder."

      100 percent agree. See the 10 Commandments. That's the moral law.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And while you're at it, Topher, take a course in history. Abortion has NEVER been considered "murder".

      June 18, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Topher: 4 of those commandments are dictatorship, not moral laws.
      ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
      TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
      THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
      FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

      June 18, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • JA

      My wife is a christian and she takes the pill in order to regulate her cycle and relieve the menstrual pain. There is no wrong in that. Heck, if it wasnt for technological advances in medicine, there would not be a good chance any women could survive giving birth. Thank You B/C !

      June 18, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Shadowflash1522

      Topher,
      Your so-vaunted "written in stone" Ten Commandments were recently (within the last decade, if my grade school religion books can be believed) retranslated to read "Thou shalt not murder" where it used to read "Thou shalt not kill". The careful revision of a single word legitimized literally thousands of variations on taking a life, because it was convenient for the men writing the books. Killing with cause is now sanctioned (i.e. just war), so even if you consider a blastocyst to be "human life" (separate issue) an argument can be made for the "justice" in abortion.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • sam stone

      topher: the 10 commandments are the the end all and be all of morality.

      you are confusing. first, you say that all intentional taking of human life is murder, then you say it isn't (in case of war), but preventing a fertilized egg is murder, even though at that point, it has not embedded in the uterine wall.

      also, the 10 commandments are not universal as moral authority, not all (or even most) religions accept it as such

      June 18, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • SouthernCelt

      Amen.
      As for you Atheists and Liberals, please get an education on what the Catholic Church actually teaches instead of relying on what you think it teaches. The same First Amendment that allows you to post your bile against our Faith, also gives us the right to worship as we choose. If we respect your right, why do you deny our right?

      June 18, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Topher
      If you would defend your family from an invader with force, you aren't a good Christian.
      "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
      But if you really want to be considered righteous, follow Lot's example and offer up your vir/gin daughters to be ra/ped.

      June 18, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
  16. Which God??

    @kindness. You speak with the wisdom of the undereducated person who needs something to grasp in their life. Without that 'book', you would be nothing, and you know it. You are too weak to stand up and face your life and really live. Instead you choose a mythical person to worship, betting, hoping it will relieve you of you fear odf living a real life. Pathetic, really. BTW Christ was not a name, and is not a name. It means annointed. Christ was not a person.

    June 18, 2012 at 11:54 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Atheists are all talmud thumpers ... and, knowing they probably don't read this trash, are thumped by the talmud they follow.

      June 18, 2012 at 11:57 am |
    • POPE likes TWINKS

      No doubt HeavenSent can relate to the post...a little sensative HeavenSent aren't we. lol You need to the bible to deal with the trauma you experienced in life. You cannot accept reality around you. lol

      June 18, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • POPE likes TWINKS

      Kindness = Social Retard

      June 18, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
  17. Topher

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCSUKIhjevo&w=640&h=360]

    June 18, 2012 at 11:49 am |
  18. Leucadia Bob

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QLsJqY9IoU&w=640&h=360]

    June 18, 2012 at 11:42 am |
  19. kindness

    For me:
    I Follow Christ . I never wanted proof. I just had faith.

    HE WHO follows Me, walks not in darkness,” says the Lord (John 8:12). By these words
    of Christ we are advised to imitate His life and habits, if we wish to be truly enlightened and
    free from all blindness of heart. Let our chief effort, therefore, be to study the life of Jesus
    Christ.
    The teaching of Christ is more excellent than all the advice of the saints, and he who
    has His spirit will find in it a hidden manna. Now, there are many who hear the Gospel often
    but care little for it because they have not the spirit of Christ. Yet whoever wishes to understand
    fully the words of Christ must try to pattern his whole life on that of Christ.

    What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you
    displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous
    life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it.
    For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the
    philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity,
    except to love God and serve Him alone.

    This is the greatest wisdom—to seek the kingdom of heaven through contempt of the
    world. It is vanity, therefore, to seek and trust in riches that perish. It is vanity also to court
    honor and to be puffed up with pride. It is vanity to follow the lusts of the body and to desire
    things for which severe punishment later must come. It is vanity to wish for long life and
    to care little about a well-spent life. It is vanity to be concerned with the present only and
    not to make provision for things to come. It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not
    to look ahead where eternal joy abides.
    Often recall the proverb: “The eye is not satisfied with seeing nor the ear filled with
    hearing.”1 Try, moreover, to turn your heart from the love of things visible and bring
    yourself to things invisible. For they who follow their own evil passions stain their consciences
    and lose the grace of God.

    See for yourself. You will be on a battlefield for christ

    June 18, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • Huebert

      SPAM! Second helping!

      June 18, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      kindness (my ass): What does this have to do with the story? The same old rhetoric day in and day out proves nothing outside of the fact that you're a broken record that quickly becomes annoying. Go find your friends, they're in the sand box where all good little children are.

      June 18, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • TROLL ALERT

      click the report abuse link to get rid of this TROLL, hopefully soon they'll block their IP address.

      June 18, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • POPE likes TWINKS

      Spam...same post over every topic. Religion is truly for the meek and weak of society. Social retards of our society.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • miketofdal

      The commenter fails to mention that all but the first sentence is plagarized: from chapter one, The Imitation of Christ by Thomas à Kempis, circa 1427.

      June 18, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • Jukebox Jesus

      The records stuck
      the records stuck
      the records stuck...........

      June 18, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
  20. kindness

    MY personal testimony.
    A thought to consider without an ego response

    Accept Jesus christ as your lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from som other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus

    my testimony

    Romans 10:9

    "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

    June 18, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • Huebert

      SPAM! Get your fresh spam here.

      June 18, 2012 at 11:30 am |
    • TROLL ALERT

      Click the report abuse link to get rid of this garbage!

      June 18, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • Which God??

      Your 'testimony' doesn't mean sh!t! It isn't verifiable to others, can't be shown, can't be taught. It's just your brain secreting chemicals . I'll bet you 'hear' the word of god too, eh? It's called delision, and you delude yourself inspite of your 'testimony.' Again, your testimony doesn't mean diddly-squat to any one but you, and maybe the freaks who think like you.

      June 18, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • boocat

      Kindly keep your religion to yourself....

      June 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • miketofdal

      Honestly. this is not the place for your witnessing or testimony. I choose not to go to church so that I don't have to hear such bs. That's why you have church. Please go there and feel free to talk about whatever you want...THERE.

      June 18, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • Monty Python

      Im a lumberjack and im ok,
      i sleep all night and work all day
      i put on womans clothing and hang around in bars,
      just like my dear papa.....

      June 18, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.