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June 21st, 2012
09:40 AM ET

Harsh anti-gay preaching alarms gay rights supporters and Christian conservatives alike

By Richard Allen Greene, CNN

(CNN) - The little boy with a buzz cut shows no sign of nervousness as he sings in front of the church congregation.

Dressed in a pressed white shirt and blue sweater vest, he holds the microphone and sings that the Bible is right, then lets loose the line that brings whoops from the congregation: "Ain't no homo gonna make it to heaven."

Next to him, an adult beams as worshippers rise to their feet and cheer.

The scene was captured on video and anonymously posted online, receiving hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube since the end of May. It appears to show a service at the Apostolic Truth Tabernacle in Greensburg, Indiana.

The church quickly posted on its website that its pastor and members "do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason."

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

But the chubby boy with the buzz cut isn't the only one going viral with harshly worded anti-gay pronouncements in church.

In recent weeks, Pastor Charles Worley in North Carolina preached that lesbians and gay men should be fenced in and left to die out, while Pastor Curtis Knapp in Kansas said the government should kill homosexuals.

"They won't, but they should," Knapp said, according to a recording of his sermon posted online. Worley’s sermon was captured on video and also went viral.

The incidents drew outrage and condemnation from gay rights supporters.

But they also left many Christians uncomfortable - even those who call themselves conservative.

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One leading expert on American Protestantism has a simple explanation for why some pastors preach against homosexuality while others go further, encouraging violence against gay people.

"There is a significant percentage who think it's a sin," Ed Stetzer said of homosexuality. "And there are a small minority who are stupid."

Stetzer is president of LifeWay Research, which is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Worley and Knapp both belong to Independent Baptist churches and are not part of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the second largest Christian denomination in the United States.

Many conservative Christians would agree with pastors such as Worley and Knapp that homosexual behavior is fundamentally wrong, Stetzer said.

But that doesn't mean they support them or their sermons, he added.

"If you asked, they would say that's really unhelpful and stupid," he said.

But the Rev. Robin Lunn said these preachers are much worse than that. She calls such pastors "genocidal."

Opinion: Why some Christians focus on gays

"If someone is talking about rounding up me and all my kind in a pen, what is the difference between that and what is happening in Syria and Sudan and what happened in Germany and Poland during World War II?" asked Lunn, executive director of the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists.

"We are talking about people who believe somehow that the Second Coming is connected to a Final Solution," said Lunn, a lesbian, using the Nazi term for the mass murder of Jews in the Holocaust.

"I think these men expressed something that many Baptist preachers think," Lunn said. "We need to stand up and denounce this powerfully."

Her group campaigns for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender inclusion across all Baptist churches. It has its origins in the American Baptist Churches movement but is not connected to any one Baptist group or denomination, she said.

"It seems to me that this is an opportunity to show some solidarity around the belief that all people are children of God regardless of what you think about someone's 'lifestyle,' " she said.

Opinion: The Christian case for gay marriage

One of the most respected voices in conservative Christianity agrees with Lunn, up to a point.

"The Gospel does not condemn homosexuals, it condemns homosexuality," said R. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. "The Bible makes clear that homosexuality is a sin, in the context of making clear that every person is a sinner."

What preachers such as Worley and Knapp are doing wrong, he said, is that they are "not merely rendering a moral judgment on homosexuality but extending it to the condemnation of people. They are speaking with a certain venom and hatred."

He called their sermons "reprehensible."

And, he said, "they are doing grave harm to the cause of conservative Christianity by speaking messages of hate that obscure the message of the church."

"What you're seeing here is a very dangerous fringe that does not represent conservative Christianity in America," he said.

About one-third of Protestant pastors talk to their congregations about homosexuality several times a year, while another third do so "rarely," data from LifeWay Research suggests.

The rest do so anywhere from never to several times a month, according to a 2008 telephone survey of 1,002 Protestant pastors across the country and a wide range of denominations.

Half of the pastors who preached about homosexuality several times a year identified themselves as "very conservative," while a quarter of those who did said they were liberal or very liberal.

LifeWay’s Stetzer argued that it was important to remember that many Americans - not just Christian pastors - think homosexuality is wrong.

A Gallup Poll last month found that 54% of Americans saw homosexuality as "morally acceptable," while 42% said it was "morally wrong."

"This is not a small minority," Stetzer said. "Are all of those people going to be tarred by the comments of a few pastors?"

The sermons of Worley, Knapp and those like them do not have a great influence, Stetzer said, calling them "isolated."

"I've never heard of or seen a violent confrontation" that resulted from Christian preaching, he said.

But Ross Murray, director of religion, faith and values at the gay rights group Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, or GLAAD, said it's not that simple.

"When pastors preach they want people to listen to their words and pay attention to them," he said. "It's an exhortation to believe and think and act in accordance with the Gospel."

And he said he's not worried only about people who might act on violent preaching they hear in church. He said he's also concerned about young churchgoers grappling with being gay or lesbian themselves.

"You get brought to church; you have told nobody about this and you hear your pastor preaching or this child singing. What this tells you is that the church is not a safe place, not a place where you are going to experience love and grace," he said.

Pastors such as Worley and Knapp "give Christianity a bad name," he said.

And more than that, they are dangerous, he said. There were a record number of murders of members of sexual minorities in the United States last year, he said, citing a study out this month by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs.

He conceded that no link has been proven between preaching and attacks on homosexuals, but he argued that preaching matters.

"To say that people shouldn't take you seriously when you say something violent is disingenuous. Our words have consequences," Murray said. "Our words have real meaning."

- Newsdesk editor, The CNN Wire

Filed under: Christianity • Homosexuality

soundoff (1,795 Responses)
  1. DaveM

    A simple human fact is that we hate what we are. Perhaps these venom-spewing "men of god" should clean out their own houses before tearing down someone else's...

    June 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
  2. jknbt

    1) God didn't create g-ayness...this flaw is the result of Adam's fall. The genetics researchers have identified family genes for violence and alcoholism. Having bad genes does not excuse immoral behavior. We are all flawed to one degree or another through original sin. The answer to this is repentance, not stubborn rebellion.
    2) There are two lists in the Bible of people who do not get into heaven. See Rev 21:8 and Rev 22:15. The abo-minable and se-xually immoral will not be allowed access into the New Jerusalem (Heaven).

    June 22, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • just sayin

      Well there you have it. We don't need science when we have the bible.

      p.s. it was God who lied.

      June 22, 2012 at 12:56 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      Sooooo, your perfect created an imperfect creation. If gods creation was perfect there would have been no "fall".

      That there was a "fall" means that what was created was not perfect. If god could not create perfection, then god is not perfect either.

      The fault is gods because god was unable to create perfection.

      June 22, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • TC

      jknbt

      1) God didn't create g-ayness...this flaw is the result of Adam's fall. The genetics researchers have identified family genes for violence and alcoholism. Having bad genes does not excuse immoral behavior. We are all flawed to one degree or another through original sin. The answer to this is repentance, not stubborn rebellion.
      2) There are two lists in the Bible of people who do not get into heaven. See Rev 21:8 and Rev 22:15. The abo-minable and se-xually immoral will not be allowed access into the New Jerusalem (Heaven)."

      1. "Adam's fall" Is not the cause of anyone's se xual orientation. It is an innate and God-given trait that harms no one. Comparing someone's orientation to illness or violence simply shows a loose grip on reality, and a gay person can be just as moral as a straight person – orientation doesn't play into it.

      2. Gay people aren't on the list. People who judge others without knowledge are.

      3.

      June 22, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • lambandthedragon

      A lot of things are a result of Adam's fall. Did Jesus bend down and write in the sand in sheer vanity? This is one of the simple lessons to learn and leaders and followers of the church still don't get this? Hey, Nineveh repents Jonah.

      June 22, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • clinlokas

      So you actually believe in the story of Adam & Eve? You need help! Adam and Eve gave birth to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel. How does this story continue? Did god take Cain's rib to make another woman or did he sleep with his sister?

      June 22, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • DaveM

      I pity you for your ignorance. Spend more time in the NEW Testament, trying to understand Christ's teachings...

      June 22, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Hômosèxuality, just like heterosèxuality, is a normal natural variant of orientation. It occurs in 1500 species of mammals, fish, birds, insects, etc.

      As such, it evolved a vey long time ago. Evolution rarely repeatsd itself, rather, it builds on itself. For example, lungs did not evolve anew in each species. Instead, if lungs work, then all species that descend from that initial species with lungs, will have lungs. This pushes the time frame for the evolution of hômosèxual orientation back to at least 300,000,000 years ago.

      I'm sorry, but this whole, "god says gays are icky" nonsense is just another example of something your god got completely wrong.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
  3. lambandthedragon

    If the big bang theory is true, then we all came through blood, fire, and brimstone.......together.
    Do the math

    June 22, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Why? The initial expansion of the singularity has absolutley nothing to do with what you have written.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
  4. lambandthedragon

    Hey, when words on a page trick you into endorsing the worst act of violence one can conceive in their mind, eternal suffering alive in hell, the act of rounding people up to exterminate them is rather mild compared to what the god they worship has in store for the unbeliever.

    There are two distinct images of God in this book of ink. Matthew 24:40 says, "Then shall two be in the field...." If you do the math, the people who advocate the behavior in the above article are clearly worshiping the beast image of this book.

    The following scripture describes the true image of God: ".....Pure Love records no record of wrongs" 1 Corinthians 13 (NIV)

    Romans 5:18 = True good news – "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

    "Then shall two be in the field" = The true and false image of God in the same book resulting in confusion by mixing the two together.

    The very definition of the word "Babylon" = Confusion by mixing

    Words on a page tricked us into jumping off of a high bridge, at the same time calling it good news.

    June 22, 2012 at 12:26 pm |
    • clinlokas

      If god is omniscient, them he knows who's going to hell even before they're created. The gay person's creation is therefore an act of pure wickedness.

      June 22, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
  5. Rainer Braendlein

    Is there any connection between the haters of the gays and the Holocaust?

    During the 19th century the Jews in Germany got more and more rights, which they did not have former in Germany. In the second half of the 19th century it got so that there was no more difference between a German Jew or Jewish German and a native German. The Jews were finally called Germans with Jewish belief. Beside them there were Jews, which had converted to Christianity. But the rights of a Jew were independent from the fact, whether he had converted or not.

    The German state even collected taxes in service for the synagogues, that means Jewry got completely intergrated by the German state (or German Empire or Second Empire) like Catholicism and Protestantism. The Jews built bombastic synagogues in German cities like Munich, Berlin, etc.. They had great influence on trade and banking. Furthermore they influenced culture and politics to a significant extent. They even had got several own newspapers, which was the most important medium in a time without TV and radio.

    Seemingly relatively much more Jews got higher professional positions than Germans. Important and great German companies were owned by Jews.

    It is not necessary to prove all this. The crucial point is that the native Germans got the impression that the Jews would infiltrate their society step by step. Possibly they erred and totally overestimated the influence of the Jews, but certainly they felt uncomfortable, when they looked on the Jews, which seemed to control Germany gradually.

    Yet, the German leaders made a mistake by intergrating the Jews too much against natural given conditions, and it is a matter of fact that there were nearly no personal friendships between German Jews and native Germans despite the integration-policy of the German leaders. This let to an increasing tension between German Jews and native Germans.

    Even if Germany has got a bad reputation today to be an anti-Semitic country, at least its leaders of the 19th century treated the Jews very kindly, too kindly.

    Some decades later Hitler seized power supported by the German military (gerneral Ludendorff). Hitler was an ill racist, but he had never been successful with his anti-Semitism without a bad mood in the German folk against the Jews. If today someone would like to kill all German Hindus, he would not be successful, because there is no bad mood against Hindus in Germany. Every leader needs some backing in his folk.

    Today some leaders of the churches try to intergrate gays into the churches without repentance. It is clear that ordinary Christians feel uncomfortable about that. A bad mood against gays is about to emerge, which could be milked by evil preachers, which preach hatred against gays or even want that they get killed.

    If gays really would be killed, not only the gay-haters would be responsible for that, but also the false leaders, which intergrated them too much.

    Responsible for the Holocaust are not only ill people like Hitler, but also the German leaders, which intergrated the Jews too much ignoring the natural segregation between Jews and Germans.

    The true Church doesn't hate the gays, but offers the gospel of Jesus Christ to them. However, they only can become church members, if they accept the gospel and get released from gayness by the power of Jesus death and resurrection, which is dedicated to us by sacramental baptism and becomes effective by faith (I am a Protestant). However, even if a gay doesn't accept the gospel, we as Christians shall love him. It is still a time of grace and maybe our gay neighbour will repent one day before Judgement Day. In the Church there are people, which are yet reconciled with God, hence gays have no access. If a gay gets overwhelmed by Christ's love and repents, he is welcome in the Church.

    A second Holocaust could occur, if we keep on integrating too much the Muslims in Germany ignoring the natural segregation between them and us (I am a German). There are nearly no personal relations between Muslims and Germans in Germany, although the German leaders intergrate and intergrate and integrate them. Long-terms a new Hitler could emerg and milk the bad mood against the Muslims in Germany, to seduce the Germans for a Muslim Holocaust.

    Germany has a right on its own culture and faith, which is Christianity for times immemorial. Godless German leades, which ignore that, are traitors and will cause a lot of damage long-terms. The Muslims cannot require to have the same influence like Germans in their own country. This demand is ridicolous. German politicans, which accept such demands should go to nuthouse. They indirectly promote the advent of a second Hitler by there mad politics.

    The Muslims can live in Germany, but they should be contented with a guest status. Their culture is strange for us and not acceptable. If they hate the German culture, they can go back to their home country.

    Despite all I love my Muslim neighbour according to Christ's command. It is only that the German rulers should prevent too much Muslim impact in Germany, because that would destroy the faith, which causes love, which is Christianity.

    June 22, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • Jah

      So Rainer, you are a German who sees Jews and other races as a threat, you are a nationalist who sees his country as great but under threat of decay due to foreigners, you believe in the national identity of the Germanic people, and you want single party control in the form of of your religion.

      Congratulations! You are actually a Nazi! I know that in 99.9999% of the cases that word is used online, it is just a smear, but you as a German actually incorporated over 80% of their ideological elements into your post! Nice one!

      June 22, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      @Jah

      Imagine you come home after work and find a stranger in your flat. The stranger tells you he wants to live together with you in your appartment and wants to get the same education, the same rights, etc. like you. In a word, the stranger wants completey be assimilated by you. Nevertheless, you would tell him that this is your flat and he should get off immediately, because otherwise you would chuck him out.

      Like you have a right to be undisturbed in your flat, Germans have a right to be undisturbed in their country. This is a healthy nationalism, which has nothing to do with Hitler's nationalsocialism.

      Or look on the Turks. They have the right to rule their own country. It is fully correct that they would not accept, if 4 Million Germans would go there and breed their own strange culture.

      June 22, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      Since the subject of Nazi Germany has already been broached,

      Does what Wörley and Knäpp say sound familiar? It should!

      Check out the following,

      http:// calpol25. hubpages. com / hub / H o m os e x uals-The-Forgotten-Victims-Of-The-Nazis

      http:// www. holocaust-trc. org/ ho mosx .htm

      http:// fcit.usf. edu / holocaust / people /bvictimsb.htm

      http:// www. pink-triangle . org/

      http:// travelsofad am . com / 2012 / 03 / gay-ho locaust-memorial-berlin/

      June 22, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
  6. derp

    Listening to these inbred retarded fundies just reinforces my belief that religion is the worst thing to ever happen top the human race.

    June 22, 2012 at 10:48 am |
    • Getreal

      I would explain to you that ignorance is the worst thing. For example, your inflammatory remarks regarding those who believe differently to you.
      You refer to them as inbred...you do not know that...ignorant
      you refer to them as retarded.....you do not know that....ignorant
      you refer to them as fun dies...you do not know that either....ignorant
      Insulting people will not get your point across, it will just make you look foolish and remove any credibility you have in your argument....Show a little respect and you will receive the same

      June 22, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • Alpa Chino

      Sorry getreal...it's just too obvious that they're inbred retarded fundie hicks. The evidence is in the video.

      June 22, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Nicely stated Getreal.

      I understand the temptation that is there particularly give some of the comments coming from the believers, but's not give in to it. Not only does it not further the discussion, but it reduces it to the lowest common denominator.

      Thanks,

      Elmer

      June 22, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      @Alpa Chino

      I did not se the video in question, but still do not think we should lower our selves to that level.

      June 22, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      @self,

      Must have typed too fast and did not catch the error.

      Should be ...but let's not....

      June 22, 2012 at 11:33 am |
    • Getreal

      That's OK Elmer...Alpa was just illustrating my point

      June 22, 2012 at 11:37 am |
    • derp

      "Insulting people will not get your point across, it will just make you look foolish and remove any credibility you have in your argument....Show a little respect and you will receive the same"

      Did you even bother to watch the video jac kass?

      There is nothing left to guess about the inbred redneck retarded backwater knuckle dragging mouth breathers who are speaking in the video.

      I despise everything about them and their stupid "beliefs".

      they are idiots, as are you.

      Kindly suck my dick Mo ron!

      June 22, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Derp,

      Not surprised at your response. Your family mixes with dirty Asians. You have too much rice on your brain.

      Amen.

      June 22, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • just sayin

      HeavenSent the Sumerian,

      Very classy

      June 26, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
  7. ElmerGantry

    Bill Deacon stated
    __________________________________________
    Bill Deacon
    I pray and I do not participate in trafficking. I suggest that anyone who wishes to stop their participation begin the practice of daily prayer and see if it works for them

    June 22, 2012 at 8:32 am | Report abuse |

    __________________________________________

    @Bill Deacon

    Oh I see. Some one stops trafficking then prays on it. Oh well that proves it. NOT! If they stopped the practice it is because of their own decision.

    It is the believers claim that prayer changes things based on,

    In Matthew 21:21:

    I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

    In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

    Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
    And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

    In Mark 9:23
    All things are possible to him who believes

    In Luke 1:37
    For with God nothing will be impossible.

    So all you sincere, honest, fervent believers go ahead and pray. Stop the repulsive human sëx trafficking abuse. You can do it, right? The Buy-Bull tells you you can. So do it. Make the world a better place.

    Bill Deacon: receiver of the Non Sequiter comment award

    June 22, 2012 at 10:11 am | Report abuse |

    June 22, 2012 at 10:17 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Elmer, you can't be that obtuse can you? I challenge you to show me anybody who is genuinely prayerful about trafficking who is also engaged in it. The point being that prayer does change things, it changes us. You seem childish enough to want some kind of magic mumbo jumbo to end child abuse, bring world peace and get you a new car on demand. It doesn't work that way my friend. Prayer works in the depth of the human heart to change the prayerful. Evil men still exist and do evil things but I suspect not many of them have an active prayer life and I bet you don't believe they do either.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:31 am |
    • Getreal

      Bill Deacon. In regards to prayer,in the way you refer to it, seems that it is no different than any other form of meditation, disciplining the mind for clarity of thought, the same way yoga works or even mastering a musical instrument. In that regard, you are simply referring to your meditation as prayer, and as far as that goes, it would do anyone good to train their mind in that way regardless of the focal point.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      I did not make this up!

      In Matthew 21:21:

      I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

      Asking a mountain to throw it self into the sea, ant will happen!

      If that is not magical what is?

      This also states whatever you ask for in prayer, you will receive.

      So, sincere, fervent, true believer, go ahead and ask in prayer for all sëx traficking to end the world over.
      The bible states you can do it. So go ahead and do it and stop making apologistic excuses.

      What's the matter afraid it won't work?

      June 22, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Exactly right Getreal.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      @Bill Deacon,

      You obviously know that magic will not work, but the bible tells you a true believer can make a mountain throw itself into the sea through prayer.

      The cognitive dissonance you are experiencing must be huge.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Bill,

      The point is Jesus himself said prayer does work like that. The type of feel good prayer you are talking about has to be interpreted and implied and at the same time we have to reject quotes like those Elmer listed that are straight forward.

      And quit calling people children because they don't agree with you, just agrue your point. Condescension does nothing to make your point but does make you an asshat, if you want civil discussion you have to act civil.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:53 am |
  8. Prometheus

    For people who pride themselves in having an unlimited amount of "Love, morals, and grace" there are those who critically contradict themselves with this kind of unacceptable bigotry and call for violence against other fellow human beings.

    June 22, 2012 at 10:06 am |
  9. BriSoFla

    Happy 43rd G A Y Pride America!

    Love conquers all!

    June 22, 2012 at 9:42 am |
  10. BriSoFla

    Jesus Freaks Against Gays (aka Jesus F..A.Gs) are all molest children and blame the gay community for their perverted flock. People are waking up and realizing that the Jesus F..A.Gs are the real molesters!

    June 22, 2012 at 9:37 am |
  11. Shiloh

    All sins are equal in the eyes of God including divorce, adultery, fornication, gay and the like.The good news is forgiveness is available to all those who seek forgiveness from God.
    God loves everyone equally!

    June 22, 2012 at 8:41 am |
    • Getreal

      Why should someone have to ask forgiveness for being and feeling the way "god" made them?

      June 22, 2012 at 8:44 am |
    • That is a lie you told urself

      how can 1 woman look at a another woman and feel eros?

      June 22, 2012 at 8:47 am |
    • Primewonk

      Being born gay is no more immoral, wrong, or a sin, than being born left-handed or black.

      Oh...Wait...It wasn't that long ago that religious îdiots said that being left-handed was a sign of the devil, and being black was the mark of Cain.

      I'm sorry, but this is just one more thing (in a very long list of things), that your version of a god totally screwed up.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:49 am |
    • Nile

      Design of human beings does not support love making between people of the same gender.

      Can't change the design now it is too late 😉

      June 22, 2012 at 9:06 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Nile
      And yet people do it every single day. Odd that...
      Does that mean impotent people are incapable of love and should be denied the bond of marriage?

      June 22, 2012 at 9:10 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @That is a lie...
      How can a woman look at a man and feel eros?

      June 22, 2012 at 9:12 am |
    • sam stone

      Shucks, Shiloh, you have some gall purporting to speak for god

      June 22, 2012 at 9:38 am |
    • sam stone

      Nile: And, what makes you think that making some people gay is not PART of the design? If God can design down to the most minute detail, why can't God make some gay as a restriction on population?

      June 22, 2012 at 9:41 am |
    • mandarax

      Nile, some things to consider:

      1. You are confusing gender with sex. Gender is a social construct and is not necessarily based on anatomy.
      2. People of the same sex indeed enjoy love making just as frequently as anyone else.
      3. Even if your argument were true (we know that being gay is a sin because we are not designed that way), why doesn't that same logic apply to other things? We aren't designed to fly and yet we do. We aren't designed to digest grains and yet we do. We aren't designed to be immune to smallpox, and yet most of us are. Does that make each of these sins?

      You managed to pack a lot poor reasoning into such a short comment.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:45 am |
    • tallulah13

      Nile, same-gender couples enjoyed physical intimacy long before the christian god came along to condemn it. It seems the design works very well.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:45 am |
    • Birch

      After you have made love to your kitty come back and let us know how the design has been working for ya

      June 22, 2012 at 10:15 am |
  12. tom

    When you take a step back from religion you truely see how crazy you all are. Religion is for the weak minded who are living worthless lives so they hope there is something after this world.

    June 22, 2012 at 8:37 am |
  13. kebos

    Religion truly is the root of all evil.

    June 22, 2012 at 6:46 am |
    • Getreal

      And ignorance is the root of all religion

      June 22, 2012 at 8:19 am |
    • Mike from CT

      including communism and the cold war?

      June 22, 2012 at 8:26 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Including the university system?

      June 22, 2012 at 8:28 am |
    • Primewonk

      @ Bill – why would you think our Universities are evil?

      June 22, 2012 at 8:44 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Because the first Universities were religious and based on the monastic system. Hence if religion is the root of all evil and the cause of all human suffering, the Universities must go. I'm merely illustrating the absurdity of the original post. Of course a great deal of human suffering has been caused in the name of religion. I don't know anyone who denies that. These absolute statements on the "evil" of religion are simply not factual and detract from any serious discussion.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:23 am |
  14. perversion is a crime

    not a right . There is no right to unnatural filth, depravity and crime.

    June 22, 2012 at 5:36 am |
    • Reality

      Only for all the Abrahamic rednecks of the world:

      o "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.

      To wit:

      1. The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:

      “ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "

      2. "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8

      3. See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”

      June 22, 2012 at 6:46 am |
    • sam stone

      "perversion" is not a crime. if it were, these inbred fvck preachers would be doing "hard" time, which they would likely enjoy on their knees

      June 22, 2012 at 7:05 am |
    • Primewonk

      The only perversion here is the religious îdiots trying to legislate discrimination against gay folks. Why do you cretins hate the constîtution?

      June 22, 2012 at 9:08 am |
    • tallulah13

      There is nothing so perverse as discrimination based on ignorance and supersti.tion.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:41 am |
  15. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things.

    June 22, 2012 at 5:16 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Earlier I challenged you to do something about the reprehensible human sëx trafficking.

      ___________________________________________________________________________________

      There are an estimated 800,000 people forced into sëx trafficking across international borders every year.

      How about praying to stop that instead of curing your zïts for a change.

      Let us know when you succeed.

      June 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Report abuse | Reply

      ______________________________________________________________________________________

      Well the sëx trafficking has not stopped yet soooo,

      Either you are not praying to stop this repulsive human abuse or your prayers are not answered.

      If prayer does change things, why won't you pray to stop this repulsive human abuse?

      Either prayer does not work or you are a sick person who refuses to stop this horrible practice.

      Which is it?

      June 22, 2012 at 6:42 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Are any of you Christians praying to stop this reprehensible human abuse? If prayer works and nothing is too big to be answered if you pray honestly and fervently?

      Why won't you stop this horrible human abuse. Honest and fervent prayer to an all knowing, all seeing, all caring god works, right?

      Surely an all caring, all powerful god will answer your honest and fervent prayers to stop this horrible human abuse, after all nothing is too big? If you ask for a mountain to be moved, it will move. So pray and end this repulsive human abuse!

      June 22, 2012 at 7:15 am |
    • Dyllis

      Brilliant post, ElmerGantry. Sadly, I doubt that any "believers" will take up your challenge. More likely, they will present excuses as to why their "god" doesn't act on what are clearly sincere requests.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:01 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      @Dyllis,
      Thanks.

      I have been waiting with bated breath (not really) to see what the apologist answer could possibly be, but so far there has only been the sound of crickets chirping.

      There may be an apologist answer or simply,

      "run away, run away!"

      June 22, 2012 at 8:11 am |
    • Mike from CT

      "Either prayer does not work or you are a sick person who refuses to stop this horrible practice.

      Which is it?"

      Where is fallacy spotter when you need him? Or is fallacy spotter wrought with bias towards Christians.
      Reality get on that.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:29 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      I pray and I do not participate in trafficking. I suggest that anyone who wishes to stop their participation begin the practice of daily prayer and see if it works for them

      June 22, 2012 at 8:32 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      @Bill Deacon

      Oh I see. Some one stops trafficking then prays on it. Oh well that proves it. NOT! If they stopped the practice it is because of their own decision.

      It is the believers claim that prayer changes things based on,

      In Matthew 21:21:

      I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

      In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

      Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

      In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

      Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

      In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
      And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

      In Mark 9:23
      All things are possible to him who believes

      In Luke 1:37
      For with God nothing will be impossible.

      So all you sincere, honest, fervent believers go ahead and pray. Stop the rulsive human sëx trafficking abuse. You can do it. The Buy-Bull tells you you can. So do it. Make the world a better place.

      Bill Deacon: receiver of the Non Sequiter comment award

      June 22, 2012 at 10:11 am |
    • Jesus

      Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!

      June 22, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • Reality

      Free Will and Future are inherent to all the thinking beings in the Universe. This being the case, it is not possible to alter life with prayers. Statistically, your request might come true but it is simply the result of the variability/randomness of Nature.

      So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping/revering cows or bowing to Mecca five times a day. Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the proper rules of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings.

      June 22, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
  16. Nii

    AD HOMINEM ATTACK COMMENCED
    Since Xtianity is not supposed to change society by encouraging anarchy, how do you propose it discourages slavery? The best way is then to remove the elements of slavery which dehumanise the slaves! First is to make the slaves themselves feel human again,hence the verse.

    June 22, 2012 at 4:02 am |
  17. Nii

    De Law didnt say kill yo child if he mouths off. Thats an Atheist version n it shows how much they know against how much u don't. Its a law against condoning gangsterism n a criminal life-style in yo youthful offspring. Youth were 15-30yo. Parents must give such bad youth up to police basically.

    June 22, 2012 at 2:28 am |
    • Leviticus 21:17

      Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:47 am |
    • Nii

      Anyone who curses his father or mother is not mouthing off. There are specific instances where you are liable to be charged with this! The use of the word curse is the problem! Most of you take it to be insulting. In the Bible it is the opposite of blessing! Akin to witchcraft!

      June 22, 2012 at 3:05 am |
    • You faceplanted

      That has to be the lamest, worst, dumbest attempt to say that the Bible doesn't mean what it actually says that I have ever seen, and I have seen some lame ones!

      By the way, it would really help if you didn't talk like a jigaboo stereotype with phrases like "Da Law".

      June 22, 2012 at 3:18 am |
    • Nii

      I have the advantage of reading the Bible in a language called Akan. Quite similar to Hebrew. It uses the word for curse rather than insult. It makes sense if u consider that parents were supposed to bless their children. English uses multiple definitions for 1 word where other languages wud not.

      June 22, 2012 at 3:46 am |
    • You faceplanted

      And if you read the Bible in Polynesian, it might say something different.

      Akan. Not one of the original languages of the Bible or Christianity. Your points get lamer and lamer.

      June 22, 2012 at 3:56 am |
    • Jim

      Wow did face plant just use a racist word to describe NII. Might as well have used the N word there .

      June 22, 2012 at 4:49 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      @jim
      Using redirection of attention and Ad Hominem attack, eh.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:03 am |
    • Blunt Object

      I absolutely love how some christians resort to using other versions of the bible to try to prove it doesn’t say what it says in the mainstream version. All you accomplish with this futile attempt to make a point is prove that the bible has been edited/translated/mistranslated to the point that the current version is even further away from the original fairy tales.

      PS
      Faceplanted, in case you didn’t know the ‘j’ word is probably more offensive than the ‘n’ word. Nii is many things, and I have been guilty of pointing that out to him many times, but we should all draw the line at racist remarks, as it generally invalidates any point you are trying to make.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:16 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Good comment Blunt Object!

      June 22, 2012 at 7:46 am |
    • Dyllis

      What Elmer said, x2.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:02 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      The mainstream version? I have to laugh at that. There is no mainstream version. Simply because the Bible has been translated into different languages doesn't mean what atheist propose it means. The root tenets of the Bible are consistent from version to version. What seems lost on most is that these various and consistent versions are merely a means to present the Word in the contemporary vernacular, there is no substantive deviation in the message. If anyone can provide evidence where one version diametrically contradicts another, I will rescind my comment. How about it atheists, where's the proof?

      June 22, 2012 at 8:39 am |
    • Blunt Object

      @Bill
      The bible has been translated many times. Some of these translations are translations of translations. None of these translations is a ‘word-for-word’ translation of the original text. I never said anything about diametric contradictions. You either missed my point, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

      What is so laughable about ‘mainstream version’ Bill? How many churches are still using the original version of scripture? How many are still using versions from the 1500 years ago, or even 1000 years ago. The NIV is the most popular version today followed be the NKJV (note the N stands for New, meaning it’s a revision of the KJV). Newer versions are coming out all the time, and someday the top two may no longer be same as today, so the new ones will become ‘mainstream’ and they too will have different word choices that will open the verses within to an entirely new realm of possible interpretations.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:52 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Bill,

      One version does not have to contradict another, the SAME version contradicts itself. Just one Example...Jesus tells us not to pray by rote, Jesus then gives us the Lord's prayer.

      June 22, 2012 at 11:05 am |
  18. Truth

    1 Peter 3 >>
    New International Version 1984

    8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,

    “Whoever would love life

    and see good days

    must keep his tongue from evil

    and his lips from deceitful speech.

    11He must turn from evil and do good;

    he must seek peace and pursue it.

    12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous

    and his ears are attentive to their prayer,

    but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”a

    13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fearb; do not be frightened.”c 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

    June 22, 2012 at 2:01 am |
    • Lady Gaga, Soon To Be The World's First Woman Pope! Vatican Fashions Will Get Very Interesting!

      Considering that atheists are consistently proven to have better Biblical knowledge than Christians, why in the world would you believe that quoting a flatulent chuck of Bible twaddle would be effective in any way?

      June 22, 2012 at 3:03 am |
    • Jim

      Ha better biblical nonsense is more like it. You communists couldnt theoligize yourself out of a wet paper bag.

      June 22, 2012 at 4:52 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      ElmerGantry
      @jim
      Using redirection of attention and Ad Hominem attack, eh.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:03 am | Report abuse |

      Starting to look like this all Jim knows how to post.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:06 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Elm, quick to point out other peoples fallacies why not focusing on your own... Jesus actually though about this type of behavior.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:32 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      An atheist who knows more about the Bible is like a poli-sci teacher who never ran for office. Apologies to pol-sci teachers.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:42 am |
    • Primewonk

      Bill – the overwhelming vast majority of atheists and agnostics are former theists. Hell I went to a LCMS school through Junior High. I could throw down fundiot nonsense with the best of them.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:33 am |
    • derp

      "the overwhelming vast majority of atheists and agnostics are former theists"

      Yup, good catholic school boy here.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:46 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Me too derp,

      The point is for many people the more that is known about the religion (teachings of he bible, history of the bible and christianity in general) the easier it is to reject it as false.

      June 22, 2012 at 11:00 am |
  19. Christianity IS Morality. Case Closed!

    We Christians do not condone or obey the Old Testament stuff that is fulfilled by Jesus, like kill your child if he mouths off. That was right and righteous for a while, but God changed it, which he can do because he is God. It is the New Testament that is the infallible always-true universal morality, which replaced the old infallible always-true universal morality of the Old Testament.

    So when the New Testament says in Ephesians 6:5-9: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free", well, we should just all go out and buy us some slaves so we can obey Paul's divinely-inspired loving words. Give them the chance to be slaves of Christ just as they are slaves of whitey.

    June 22, 2012 at 12:32 am |
    • Answer

      I give christians the right to die as fast as they can.

      June 22, 2012 at 12:47 am |
    • Nii

      STUPID WHITE MAN!!!
      SO YOU DID NOT KNOW BLACK AFRICANS DID KEEP WHITE SLAVES!

      June 22, 2012 at 2:41 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Anyone else see the illogic of this:

      "It is the New Testament that is the infallible always-true universal morality, which replaced the old infallible always-true universal morality of the Old Testament."

      June 22, 2012 at 2:45 am |
    • Christianity IS Morality. Case Closed!

      I would have thought the general Poeyness of the post would have been obvious.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:49 am |
    • Nii

      CHRIS CASE
      Unfortunately most Atheists cannot read in context which is why you will always know more about the Bible but understand little. I knew u were Atheist! Ur friends? I don't think so!!

      June 22, 2012 at 3:11 am |
    • Christianity IS Morality. Case Closed!

      Oh I REALLY want to hear the context that makes that Ephesians quote anything but ugly, oppressive, and immoral. Go ahead, enlighten me with your "context".

      Nii will either:

      A. Change the subject and go ad hominem, or
      B. vanish.

      I vote A.

      June 22, 2012 at 3:23 am |
    • Christianity IS Morality. Case Closed!

      B. Could not support his assertion, so he vanished.

      June 22, 2012 at 3:58 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Right HotAirAce,

      However the apologist will say that the NT is a new covenent with god and abolishes the OT.

      Why was this new covenent necessary? God is perfect and could not do anything less than perfect, right?

      Besides Jesus stated ,

      "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:29 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Exactly right,

      When you ask for the context to explain why something ridiculous, repulsive, contradictory is not ridiculous, repulsive , contradictory they either run away or resort to silly name calling, innuendo, Ad Hominem attacks, look over there not here misdirection, etc etc.

      The disinformation techniques are the techniques used when someone has no viable, logical, or well reasoned comment.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:40 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      @Elmer
      And fulfill them he did.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:26 am |
    • Primewonk

      Bill – your Jesus says that the OT rules and laws remain in play until heaven and earth pass away.

      Is the earth still here?

      June 22, 2012 at 9:29 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Prime, I'm not sure how you question relates to the topic. Jesus fulfilled the law and the law is still in effect. Where is the conflict?

      June 22, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • pythagoreanvegancommunity

      So you say that it was once a righteous act to murder your children for talking back. Now you claim your god changed all that. Then how do you explain Malachi 3:6 ???

      June 22, 2012 at 11:12 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Bill,

      I don't care whether the law has been fullfilled or not. The fact your god EVER condoned such laws makes him an immoral monster.

      June 22, 2012 at 11:29 am |
  20. Reality

    Only for the new members of this blog and also all the Abrahamic rednecks of the world:

    o "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.

    To wit:

    1. The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:

    “ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "

    2. "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8

    3. See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”

    Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions supposedly abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.

    And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-se-x marriages.
    To wit:

    From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, ga-y s-exual activity is still mutual mas-turbation caused by one or more complex s-exual differences. Some differences are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell.

    Yes, heteros-exuals practice many of the same "moves" but there is never a doubt who is the female and who is the male.

    As noted, there are basic biological differences in gay unions vs. heterose-xual marriage. Government benefits are the same in both but making the distinction is important for census data and for social responses with respect to potential issues with disease, divorce and family interactions.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    ========================================================================================

    June 22, 2012 at 12:05 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.