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 A reliquary box thought to have been used to carry the bones of John the Baptist.
June 22nd, 2012
07:55 AM ET
Bulgarian bones could be John the Baptist's as claimed, scientists sayBy Richard Allen Greene, CNN (CNN)– When the tools of modern science are applied to religious relics, the results are almost always the same: Science says the relics aren't what their supporters claim. The most famous of them all, the Turin Shroud, is widely regarded as a Middle Ages forgery, and even the Catholic Church does not insist the shroud was actually used to wrap the body of Jesus himself. So when Bulgarian archeologists announced two years ago that they had found the bones of John the Baptist, Tom Higham was skeptical. He got a surprise. Higham, an Oxford University scientist and an atheist who doesn't believe in "any kind of religion or God or anything like that," was asked to test six small bone fragments found on an island named Sveti Ivan - St. John. CNN's Belief Blog: the faith angles behind the big stories The bones turned out to be from a man who lived in the Middle East at the same time as Jesus, Higham said. "We got a date that was exactly where it should be, right in the middle of the first century," said Higham, a radiocarbon dating expert. It's not proof that they belonged to John the Baptist, since there's no DNA database of early Christian saints, the archeologist who found the bones said. But the mere fact that the testing didn't prove the bones are fakes is unusual. Archeologist Kazimir Popkonstantinov led the team that found them under the altar of a fifth century basilica on Sveti Ivan, a Black Sea island off Sozopol on the south coast of Bulgaria. The bones were in a reliquary, a container for holy relics, with a tiny sandstone box. Written on the box in Greek were the words, "God, save your servant Thomas. To St. John. June 24."  Scientists take samples of the bones for radiocarbon and genetic analysis. The date is the Christian feast day of John the Baptist, believed to be his birthday. When the bones were found in 2010, Popkonstantinov said it was "logical to suggest that the founders of the monastery did their best to bring relics of its patron saint." Higham, the deputy director of Oxford's Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, got involved because a colleague knew the Bulgarian archeologists. National Geographic was also interested, so it provided funding for more extensive testing than Higham originally planned, and made a film about the project. Radiocarbon dating showed that the bones were from the right period to be from John the Baptist, Higham said, while genetic testing showed it was a man and all the bones were from the same person. DNA testing by colleagues at the University of Copenhagen suggested that the person was most likely to have been from the Middle East, he said. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter More detailed nuclear DNA testing could pin down his location even more accurately, Higham said, but "does cost quite a lot of money." There is reasonably good historical evidence that John the Baptist, whom Christians believe baptized his cousin Jesus, did exist, said Paul Middleton, a senior lecturer in Biblical studies at the University of Chester. All four gospels and the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus say he was beheaded on the orders of the ruler Herod Antipas, Middleton said when the bones were found. The six small bones are far from the only relics purporting to belong to him. Four locations, from a mosque in Damascus, Syria, to a museum in Munich, Germany, claim to have his head, while the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey, has a relic alleged to be his right arm. A monastery in Montenegro says it has his right hand, while another in Egypt has a crypt containing relics of the saint. Tom Higham says he can test them to see if they match. "We have a complete genome. It's possible that we could step this a step further and see if there is any similarity," in the genetic material of all the relics. "We've sort of got interested in this. It's not beyond the realms of possibility, and we know that there were relics moving out of the Middle East in the fourth and fifth century," he said. But for him, the project remains a purely scientific one. "I'm an atheist," he said. "I perceive this as an archeological dating problem. We have some bones and we're trying to get as much information out of them as we can." CNN's Simon Hooper and Susannah Palk contributed to this report.
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So the point of the article is that SCIENCE works? Awesome! High fives guys! What a great tool by which to know things!
I don't get why atheists always have to make it a point that they are atheists. Great bro, you're and atheist, no one cares.
Yeah, because religious people NEVER make a point to proclaim their faith......
They don't always, Alex. Take for example the countless atheists in the ministry. They keep their beliefs quiet to keep their jobs. But in a sense you're right, it is kinda silly. I mean, that word shouldn't even exist! We don't have a word for someone who doesn't believe in Astrology. I don't have to proclaim each day that, "No, I am not persuaded that Elvis is an extraterrestrial."
It's silly. Unfortunately we live in a world where a vast majority of the population pretends to know things that they do not know. In this sense, Atheism is just the noises that reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. Remove these, Alex, and then there will cease to be a reason why that word has to exist at all.
I Follow Christ . I never wanted proof. I just had faith.
HE WHO follows Me, walks not in darkness,” says the Lord (John 8:12). By these words
of Christ we are advised to imitate His life and habits, if we wish to be truly enlightened and
free from all blindness of heart. Let our chief effort, therefore, be to study the life of Jesus
Christ.
The teaching of Christ is more excellent than all the advice of the saints, and he who
has His spirit will find in it a hidden manna. Now, there are many who hear the Gospel often
but care little for it because they have not the spirit of Christ. Yet whoever wishes to understand
fully the words of Christ must try to pattern his whole life on that of Christ.
What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you
displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous
life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it.
For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the
philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity,
except to love God and serve Him alone.
This is the greatest wisdom—to seek the kingdom of heaven through contempt of the
world. It is vanity, therefore, to seek and trust in riches that perish. It is vanity also to court
honor and to be puffed up with pride. It is vanity to follow the lusts of the body and to desire
things for which severe punishment later must come. It is vanity to wish for long life and
to care little about a well-spent life. It is vanity to be concerned with the present only and
not to make provision for things to come. It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not
to look ahead where eternal joy abides.
Often recall the proverb: “The eye is not satisfied with seeing nor the ear filled with
hearing.”1 Try, moreover, to turn your heart from the love of things visible and bring
yourself to things invisible. For they who follow their own evil passions stain their consciences
and lose the grace of God.
See for yourself.
God made man in his image, God has DNA, God is human. Adam named the animals but could not write and the Jews didn't learn to write for thousands of years later and copied from religions (Sumerians) in the region established well before Adam/Eve. Cain went into the land of Nod and scored a wife....further evidence there were civilizations predating Adam. The Serphant never lied, their eyes were openned and saw God for what he was...one of them. It was God/men that lied to Adam attempting to protect him and keep him ignorant of the truth and from the outside world that was well established. Beings with DNA need flying vehicles like Ezekiel saw. The Jewish religion is simply copied and not original and is ismply false. Jesus was jsut another delusional person thinking they were a prophet. Men created and organized the "word of God"
A thought to consider without an ego response
Accept Jesus christ as your lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
The world denounces truth....
Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.
Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.
The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.
Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners.
We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .
Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
See the truth...
do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from som other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..
Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .
Trancsend the temporal world.
Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .
Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.
Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith above reason in Jesus Christ.
Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....
Read Ecclesiastes. Read corinthians.
You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.
Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are in christ.
I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .
Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?
Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.
once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it
You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus
my testimony
Romans 10:9
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
God made man in his image, God has DNA, God is human. Adam named the animals but could not write and the Jews didn't learn to write for thousands of years later and copied from religions (Sumerians) in the region established well before Adam/Eve. Cain went into the land of Nod and scored a wife....further evidence there were civilizations predating Adam. The Serphant never lied, their eyes were openned and saw God for what he was...one of them. It was God/men that lied to Adam attempting to protect him and keep him ignorant of the truth and from the outside world that was well established. Beings with DNA need flying vehicles like Ezekiel saw. The Jewish religion is simply copied and not original and is ismply false. Jesus was jsut another delusional person thinking they were a prophet. Men created and organized the "word of God".
Yeah really, whatever. If I believe that than anyone in NYC can try to sell me the Brooklyn bridge. I'll buy only if they take as payment the Eiffel tower.
Why is it when carbon dating proves something the religious people like it is accepted as fact. Yet, when the same testing proves the earth is way more than 6,000 years old, the same people say it is ridiculous, wrong and the bible is correct?
It's true, that would be ridiculous for people to do. I am a religious person, and know the earth is more than 6,000 years old. But I also know that a "day" to God, who lives forever, has a different idea of time than us mere humans. A day to us is 24 hours. A day to God... could be a million+ years. So when it says in the bible that the earth was made in 6 days, that could be millions if not billions of years. That's why I find it funny people take things so literally.
@Michael B. – Yes, I heard that before about what a day = to God. But the real question is; When did God give this specific breakdown of how he sees days? Nobody knows. Maybe not one milisecond goes by unnoticed. But you know why we can only specualte? We just don't know.
Soooooo, Mike, we're NOT to take the cosmology of Genesis literally, but we ARE supposed to take the "resurrection" literally? I'm curious what method and criteria you use to decide between the two? Aside, obviously, from the fact that the former is manifestly fraudulent, and a metaphorical interpretation of it allows it a free pass, and because the latter is the platform on which you (ostensibly) have built your life, and you are unprepared to throw it away.
You will forgive me, then, if I say that this is so apparently an exegesis of convenience, and not nothing more than an exercise in allowing oneself to believe what one wishes to believe.
Michael B, how do you know that a God day is more than 24 hours? What knowledge pertaining to God days is available to you, but denied me? The truth is you are reverse engineering demonstrable facts (an old earth and an older Universe) to make them tenable – albeit badly – with a creation myth that has been disproved.
They're not John the Baptists bones anyway. Don't even need to test them. John the Baptist was resurrected and actually restored the Priesthood to this earth in the 1800's.
and you have proof of this where exactly?
free yourself from religion mike, and get salvation.
People who try to imagine what God wants, run a high risk of driving themselves insane. Just have some tea, and enjoy the sunsets and sunrises while you can. Live well.
No ancient bones can prove the exsistence of God. Only God can prove God exsists. And he's not taking requests, so live with your beliefs. You'll find out if you've been playing for the right team when you die. Or....... you might just die. Who knows? And why drive yourself insane thinking about it? There is no way to prepare for the afterlife.
Given that these guys are thousands of years old, I'd be surprised if any are properly identified. But whether they find out if it is John or not, skepticism towards their 'acts' or claims will still exsist, regardless.
if he's an atheist why are we believing anything he is saying? he doesnt believe in the gossip so he will automaically say "there's no such thing is John the Baptist, Jesus or a heaven". he wont be fair no matter who is found and concluded. he will automatically go the left......so stupid to even have someone like him who is going to hell in the 1st place be involved in anything to do with any kind of religion. they really think he will be fair? come on now! find someone who is in the middle who might believe in a god or not...dont let someone like this stupid atheist who will not take any thought that they indeed might be a higher power....
Atheist look at the facts. Their SHOULD not be skewed towards belief or non-belief, but instead, what they can piece together. You dont want them calling some random guy from that time John The Baptist (although important enough to be buried in a tomb).
Ok, if you believe any random atheist is "going to hell" for nothing more than being an atheist, you really need to do the following three things:
(1) Stop making pretensions to rationale, or logical reasoning.
(2) Look into a mirror. There, you will see the real reason why there are so many atheists around.
(3) Based on (2), make preparations to join him in wherever he's going in the afterlife.
So why did he admit that it was possible that the bones might be from John the Baptist? Did you even bother to read the story? Being an atheist doesn't mean that you believe that none of the Bible's characters ever existed. It just means that you don't believe in God.
By the way, a sizable majority of American scientists are atheists or agnostics. If you have a problem with that, you should probably stop using your computer and the internet, since atheists helped create both technologies.
As far as atheists being liars, it seems to me that between two people, one who acts ethically for the sake of acting ethically and the other who acts ethically because he's afraid his god (who supposedly loves him) will smite him if he doesn't, the former is the more ethical huamn being.
Thank You Maya!!!!! BTW, hope your calendar prediction is wrong or at least misinterpreted!! Got a lot more to do in this life!!!!
I love checking in here once a month or so and seeing the same angry "atheists" in here making their hateful, sarcastic and demeaning comments. Sort of weird to spend all your time commenting on something you don't even believe in.....
FeeFee, you got it all wrong. We come here to enlighten you. We are not angry. We're concerned. Foolish beliefs must be pushed aside and we are here to help you do just that. We hate to see you waste valuable moments of your lives doing unproductive things, such as praying and going to church. There is no Magic Dad (God). Neither he nor his son exist except as delusions in the feeble minds of gullible adherents. Neither heaven nor hell exist. Praying for for all us atheists to go straight to hell is a complete waste of time. Your time would be better spent making life here on earth better for everyone, including people who hold other religious beliefs. Be a good person. Embrace diversity. Make your life count before you go into the cold, cold ground for eternity.
Then I suppose you would enjoy going to the light years blog and seeing Christians post comments on articles about evolution and cosmology.
Funny you try to make some sort of rambling point, but start out in the predictable way – making fun of my screen name and using insulting words to attempt to establish yourself as intellectually superior.
Peteyroo is guilty of exactly what he accuses Christians of. Demeaning and condemning people who he claims he is only trying to help out of the goodness of his heart.
FeeFee & Bull Dunkin, I hate to see you both so confused. I haven't condemed you at all. I'm trying to help you through your confusion. Your religious thoughts are among a long list of mistakes you've made in life. You're used to it. I'm here to help. You've hit a rough spot, but we'll get you past it. Remember too that you can always call the Atheists Hotline for help on all spiritual matters. Atheist volunteers are standing by to assist you.
Peteyroo, you expose yourself as having no moral center, so blatantly lying by claiming "concern" when you are just being sarcastic and haughty. Wonder why you have no moral center.......
Fufu,
Instead of doing nothing but tossing insults, how about you get to work proving your fairy tales? Here is your time to shine:
1) Provide demonstrable, objective evidence and irrefutable proof that your magic fairy actually exists.
2) Provide demonstrable, objective evidence on how this magic fairy accomplished creating everything we see and know, along with walking us step by step through the actual creation process.
3) Provide demonstrable, repeatable, and objective evidence that miraculous events actually occur in nature (while ruling out all possibilites that these events were not in fact caused by natural causes instead), as well as demonstrating that your specific fairy of choice is actually responsible for making them happen.
4) Provide demonstrable, repeatable and objective evidence that your sky-daddy came to Earth, was born of a virgin birth and ended up rising from the dead. At the same time, please demonstrate why I should regard Romulus' virgin birth as mythical, Ascepius' miraculous healing and raising the dead as mythical, Osiris' and Dionysus' resurrections as mythical, Romulus' and Heracles' ascensions as mythical, but Jesus' resurrection as factual history.
5) Provide demonstrable evidence that prayer affects anything at all in the real world (Note: countless studies have already demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that the act of praying does not affect anything at all, so you will have to refute all these studies during your analysis and experimentation).
6) Provide demonstrable and objective evidence that your specific sky-fairies, Yahweh and Jesus, are the deities that exist in lieu of all the other proposed deities that have been hypothesized throughout recorded history.
7) Provide demonstrable and objective evidence that any of the events portrayed in the bible actually took place in the world otherwise known as reality.
8) Convincingly explain why anyone should regard Genesis' creation account as literal history, but the earlier Sumerian Eridu and Babylonian Enuma Elish, with their striking parallels to the Hebrew account, as mythical.
9) Cough up a single Old Testament prophecy which states that God will have to take the form of a man, suffer, die and rise again in order to establish salvation in the form of everlasting life.
Ready, set, go.
Darkstar I assume by your use of "fairy" and "sky dad" or whatever that you are not really interested in a response, but only in doing what I originally posted about. Please point out where I have "insulted" anyone.
Beliefs matter, Fufu. I have seen enough people hit the wall at 400mph to know enough to stop pretending that what other people believe is a private matter.
i agree with you Fu-fu...
to the non believers???? good luck lol...i will pray for you and your safe trip to hell.....i heard its really hot down there, bring your sun tan lotion .
Are you in the habit of believing everything you hear, Holly? That is a bad habit.
@darkstar
You said to fufu ,"Instead of doing nothing but tossing insults, how about you get to work proving your fairy tales? Here is your time to shine:
1) Provide demonstrable, objective evidence and irrefutable proof that your magic fairy actually exists."
I would answer your first question with another question, can you do the same for what you believe? Can you do the same for the existence of love?
Then you asked, "2) Provide demonstrable, objective evidence on how this magic fairy accomplished creating everything we see and know, along with walking us step by step through the actual creation process."
I assume that you subscribe to the theory of evolution based on your post, I would again ask you to demonstrate same for what you believe and I would go so far as to say that while there is some evidence that suggests evolution, it is by no means irrefutable. As for a step by step of creation try the book of Genesis, I think it's pretty clear...
Then you asked, "3) Provide demonstrable, repeatable, and objective evidence that miraculous events actually occur in nature (while ruling out all possibilites that these events were not in fact caused by natural causes instead), as well as demonstrating that your specific fairy of choice is actually responsible for making them happen."
How exactly would this be achieved to satisfy a skeptic like yourself...you will believe what you choose regardless of the "evidence" presented, people do this everyday. If God could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, we wouldn't be having this conversation...there is much evidence of God, you simply choose to ignore it and that is your choice. But do not say that you don't believe because the evidence isn't iron clad, because no one can make that claim about any belief system they have.
Next you asked, "4) Provide demonstrable, repeatable and objective evidence that your sky-daddy came to Earth, was born of a virgin birth and ended up rising from the dead. At the same time, please demonstrate why I should regard Romulus' virgin birth as mythical, Ascepius' miraculous healing and raising the dead as mythical, Osiris' and Dionysus' resurrections as mythical, Romulus' and Heracles' ascensions as mythical, but Jesus' resurrection as factual history."
Once again, you are asking a question that is in the same vein as me asking you to provide irrefutable proof of the big bang, which of course would be impossible given that no one was around to witness it. However there were people to witness the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus, so I'd say in that regard Jesus has a one up on evolution. As for the others that you mentioned you have a choice what you believe, ultimately it is up to you to decide...you could always ask God...he does answer if you seek Him...Maybe not in the way you would hope or want, but He does answer...
Next you asked, "5) Provide demonstrable evidence that prayer affects anything at all in the real world (Note: countless studies have already demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that the act of praying does not affect anything at all, so you will have to refute all these studies during your analysis and experimentation).
I like that you say "studies have proven beyond a reasonable doubt" when there are just as many studies that have proven quite the opposite, you stated in question number 3 that when talking about miracles we should, "rule out all possibilites that these events were not in fact caused by natural causes instead". So i would submit to you that I would only need to provide proof of ONE case of prayer being answered to obliterate your statement that, "studies have proven beyond a reasonable doubt". Speaking from a view of science, when a statement can be destroyed by one occurence it is not a strong premise.
Next you asked, "6) Provide demonstrable and objective evidence that your specific sky-fairies, Yahweh and Jesus, are the deities that exist in lieu of all the other proposed deities that have been hypothesized throughout recorded history."
I believe I covered this in my answer to question 4.
Next you asked, "7) Provide demonstrable and objective evidence that any of the events portrayed in the bible actually took place in the world otherwise known as reality."
Perhaps if you investigated the matter a little you would be aware that the Bible is both geographically and historically accurate, even some of it's most vehement opponents will acknowledge that.
Next you asked, "8) Convincingly explain why anyone should regard Genesis' creation account as literal history, but the earlier Sumerian Eridu and Babylonian Enuma Elish, with their striking parallels to the Hebrew account, as mythical."
You seem to ask the same or at least very similar questions with a little bit of rephrasing...again I have responded to this question previously.
Next you asked, "9) Cough up a single Old Testament prophecy which states that God will have to take the form of a man, suffer, die and rise again in order to establish salvation in the form of everlasting life."
Glad you asked, got a pen and paper and a Bible? Here are several: Psalms 2:7, Isaiah 11:2, Isaiah 61:1, Psalms 45:7-8, Isaiah 9:5-7, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Deuteronomy 18:15, Deuteronomy 18:18, Daniel 9:24-26, Psalms 110:1, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 11:1-5, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 53:9, Isaiah 53:12, Psalms 69:9-10, Psalms 69:4, Isaiah 50:6, Zechariah 12:10, Psalms 22:16, Isaiah 53:5-7, Isaiah 53:12, Isaiah 53:9-10...now I realize you only asked for one, but as you can see there are many scriptures that speak of what you asked...so before I leave you to research this subject, which I don't actually expect you to do, but I sincerly hope you will. I will leave you with this thought: the next time you decide to ask foolish questions perhaps you should do some investigation of the matter on your own, so you don't appear so ignorant of the facts...
Now I give your final line back to you:
Ready, set, go!
hmm... who's calling the kettle black?
FeeFee, no moral center? That stings! I have said nothing but good things about you to all my atheist friends. They have a very low opinion of you, but I try to get them to see the good in you. It's daunting task. The volunteers here at the atheist call center insist that the call center is the moral center. It's where confused and befuddled Christians can come to listen to reason and science as told by knowledgable atheists who guide them through the complexities of clean living and smart thinking. Give them a call. You'll thank me later.
It's equally as interesting that you go out of your way to complain about atheists. I'm an atheist, and out of the two of us, you're the only one who is saying hateful things.
I with ya Petey. Fufu is a good guy. Fufu has personally undertaken the daunting task of convincing poeple on the internet not to insult each other. Quite noble.
@ Doesn'tMatter – Congratulations. That was the most illogical argument I've heard today.
@Maya
You said, "Congratulations. That was the most illogical argument I've heard today."
Perhaps you could go into some detail as to why you feel this is the case...unless of course you are unable, which I can only as-sume is the case since it seems that you are only capable of popping out one or two sentences of derision before moving on to the next comment...Are you simply trying to fill a quota of comments per day or do you actually have anything intelligent to add to the conversation?
Awaiting your reply Maya...
@Doesn't Matter: If you cannot understand the scientific understanding that proving a negative is not viable, you will never understand that the burden of proof is on the BELIEVERS, not the non-believers. Theories, Postulates, Laws etc. are all based on proving a positive, not a negative. If I say absolutely, that Osiris is the one true God, can you prove the negative of that? No, you would insist that I prove Osiris exists first. So it is a positive proof argument if it pertains to my beliefs, but a negative proof argument if it pertains to your beliefs? That is just not logical or fair.
@Literal
You said, "If you cannot understand the scientific understanding that proving a negative is not viable, you will never understand that the burden of proof is on the BELIEVERS, not the non-believers. Theories, Postulates, Laws etc. are all based on proving a positive, not a negative. If I say absolutely, that Osiris is the one true God, can you prove the negative of that? No, you would insist that I prove Osiris exists first. So it is a positive proof argument if it pertains to my beliefs, but a negative proof argument if it pertains to your beliefs? That is just not logical or fair."
What are you talking about? At no point in my post did I suggest that you can't prove God doesn't exist, perhaps you should go back and actually read my post this time instead of as-suming you "got the gist" of it and making a comment that makes no sense. In my post to Maya I was asking her why she thought my post was illogical, that was all. I was attempting to start a dialogue rather than just throwing insults as Maya seems prone to do based on most of her/his posts...So before you start clamouring about my lack of understanding regarding proving a negative perhaps you should be sure that that is what I was doing...
To the individual who proclaimed that Jesus was a mythical character. I checked Roman history and the authorities that lived during those times and conclusively they say Jesus existed and their explanation of him was: their was a man if you can call him a man because they were shocked and awed by the reality of the things he did. They called him a malefactor and he was wanted by the law.
Considering historians have never found contempoary historical references you are either lying of confused.
Only in Imagination Land.
The passage of Josephus you are paraphrasing is a clear forgery – an interpolation by someone that was upset that Josephus didn't have anything related to Jesus even though he was a Jewish Historian of the time of Jesus. But if you believe it, then for you that's enough, right? After all, it works for the other stuff you believe in that is wrong.
Now all you need to do is post your sources and supporting material, otherwise your claim is just second-hand believer bullsh!t.
@ Mckinley Phipps, although there was probably, but not definitely, an historical Jesus, there are ZERO contemporary accounts of his life. Also, later historians talked more about the Christ's followers and not about the man himself. Moreover, you write: " their [sic] was a man if you can call him a man because they were shocked and awed by the reality of the things he did. How do you know this? You can't claim the bible is true and correct because it says so in the bible, right?
LOTS of crazies posting here lol.
I am Palin. Therefore, I am filth.
At least John B is likely to have actually lived. Jesus, on the other hand, is a complete mythical character.
I feel sorry for non-believers.
B4, there are 2 ways to take this post. Either you honestly feel empathy for the well being of some one elses eternal soul or you meant it to be demeaning. If it is the first, I appreciate the sentiment. you would not be doing your Christly duty if you were not concerned with the salvation of others. However, if it is the latter, same to you.
You might want to check your facts. Regardless of whether or not you believe that He is God there is very little doubt over His existence in general. That idea was put to bed a long time ago and not just in theological circles.
Well, there was this guy... His name wasn't Jesus, and he didn't really perform miracles. But the guy named something else besides Jesus did exist. But, then, it's not Jesus, is it? Too bad we can't travel back in time. "Where's Jesus?" "Who?"
MZ – You may want to check your facts. There is significant doubt over his existence EVEN in some theological circles.
I don't believe there is currently (or ever will be) enough evidence to either entirely proove or disprove his existence. Personally, I do believe it is very likely a man named Jesus existed and taught a bhuddist doctrine. He just wasn't divine.
You should doubt that the Christian God exists, because it is logically impossible that he does. If God conforms to any known Christian theology, he cannot exist. His characteristics by definition cannot co-exist.
Based on the estimated population of Palestine in the first century CE, there is approximately one chance in a million that the topic bones are JB's.
What will your answer be when the admittedly atheist researcher declares that the scientific probability favors the determination that he bones are, in fact John the Baptists'? My guess is you will recalibrate your response along the lines of "well it's not definitive and I still need proof that God exist"
The existence of JB is one of the few certainties of the NT. JB's life to include his execution however like everything in the NT got twisted to suit the likes of the NT authors.
To wit:
"Professor JP Meier, University of Notre Dame, [Ma-rginal Jew II,171-76] reviews the material relating to John's execution, before concluding:
When it comes to the imprisonment and death of John, Josephus, not Mark (6: 14-29) must serve as our main source. Receiving a folkloric legend already remodeled as a pious account of a martyr's unjust execution, Mark used the story for his own purposes. The tradition he inherited preserved the most basic facts: sometime after Jesus' baptism, John was imprisoned and executed by Antipas. Mark's story also had a v-ague recollection that Antipas' irregular marriage to Herodias was somehow connected with the Baptist's death, but lively imagination and OT allusions had long since developed the nexus in a different direction from what we read in the Antiquities. Coming as it does from a diverse matrix and being developed in a very disparate fashion, Mark's account supplies valuable independent confirmation of the most basic points of Josephus' report. Beyond those, Josephus is to be preferred for history; Mark is to be mined for tradition history and theological intent. (p. 175)"
Add this to the "dismemberment" of the rest of John's sacred body and one is very skeptical about having said bone relics scattered all over the globe. Smells to "high heaven" of tourist traps.
See added discussion at http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb197.html
Hundreds of thousands of people lived and died in Palestine during the first century BCE. Short of the Virgin Mary or her cousin Elizabeth coming back to earth and making an identification, there is no way on earth of proving that these bones are - or are not - those of John the Baptist.
Prayer changes things .
No, it doesn't. There's no evidence of that at all. You can believe it, but that doesn't make it so...
Did you pray for God to give you a better life so you would have better things to do than troll comment threads and post the same baseless conclusion over and over again? If so, I'd say that disproves your statement.
Communist-atheist leaders, in their own eyes, became supreme, all-knowing, all-wise and all powerful "gods." They had total control over people’s lives and over who lived and who died. Being "gods," they asserted their evil schemes over the masses with brutality and mercilessness
Troll, troll, troll your boat....in another stream if you can't do any better than that.
Bimbo, was Torquemada a communist atheist? Or the popes who sent good Chistians to the Middle East on blood thirsty Crusades? Or maybe Hernan Cortez?
You can switch communist-atheist leaders to christian religious leaders and your statement works just as well.
Are you participating in a contest to see who can make the most non sequitur comment, or did you just run out of your medication?