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Would Jesus support health care reform?
Jesus depicted healing a sick child.
June 28th, 2012
08:45 AM ET

Would Jesus support health care reform?

Editor’s note: This piece ran earlier this year, but we’re spotlighting it now because of Thursday’s health care decision from the Supreme Court. The story generated more than 3,000 comments, including these two:

David Nelson
It is sad that Jesus has been demoted to being a politician. Jesus plainly said "My Kingdom is not of this world." Movements to use Him to promote their agendas, whether they be on the Left or Right, are extremely suspect in the eyes of this Christian.

kateslate
Jesus would SO have been a democrat. He taught us to care for the sick...not to profit off illness. I don't know how Republicans can live with themselves and call themselves Christian.

What’s your take?

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) - He was a healer, a provider of universal health care, a man of compassion who treated those with preexisting medical conditions.

We don’t know what Jesus thought about the individual mandate or buying broccoli. But we do know how the New Testament describes him. The Gospels are filled with stories of Jesus physically healing the most vulnerable and despised people in his society.

References to Jesus, of course, didn’t make into the recent U.S. Supreme Court’s hearings on the constitutionality of President Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act. Yet there is a moral dimension to this epic legal debate:

How should the nation help its “least of these,” an estimated 50 million Americans who can’t afford health insurance, as well as those who could go broke or die because they can’t afford medical care?

Christians are as divided about this question as others. Many cite Jesus, but come up with completely different conclusions.

Trust God or government?

Tom Prichard, a Lutheran and president of the Minnesota Family Council, said it’s ultimately about faith.  Who do we trust – God or government?

He opposes “Obamacare” because he has more faith in the market and people, than government.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

“Here Jesus’ words come to mind about not worrying and trusting God to meet our basic needs,” Prichard wrote in an online post warning about the dangers of “government run health care.” “Or if we believe it all depends on us, we’ll look to government.”

When reached at his Minnesota office,Prichard elaborated: He said the nation should empower families and individuals to make health-care decisions. If families can’t afford health insurance, private and public entities like churches and nonprofits should step in, he said.

“We all have the same goal,”Prichard said. “We want all people to have health care, even people who can’t afford it. I would argue that having the government be the primary vehicle for providing it is not going to get us to that goal. It’s going to make the situation worse.”

Carl Raschke, a religious studies professor at the University of Denver, evoked Jesus’ words about Rome and taxation.

Raschke cited the New Testament passage when Jesus, after being asked if Jews should pay taxes to Rome, said that people should "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

Jesus was against strictly political or economic solutions because he thought they were too easy when it comes to the real challenges of human life, Raschke said.

“Writing checks won’t solve social problems,” Raschke said. “One has to get involved. If we see someone in need, we just don’t throw a dollar at him or her. You get to know them, you offer yourself, and ask what you can do for them.”

Helping the Good Samaritans of our day

There are some Christians, though, who say that charity isn’t enough to solve the nation’s health care problems.

An estimated 32 million Americans could lose health insurance if “Obamacare” is struck down, including children who can stay on their parents’ insurance until they are 26 and seniors who get help paying for their drug prescriptions. Most observers say health care costs would continue to rise.

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

Some people believe the health care situation in America would be scandalous to Jesus because he was a prophet concerned about social justice.

Steven Kraftchick, a religious scholar, said Jesus comes out of the tradition of Jewish prophets who preached that the health of a society could be measured by how well they took care of “its widows and orphans,” those who had the least power.

Kraftchick said there’s a famous story in the Gospel of Mark in which Jesus heals such a person. He was the man who called himself Legion. He might have been called homeless and mentally ill. The man roamed a graveyard, so tormented that even chains could not hold him and everyone feared him, Mark wrote.

Jesus healed the man not only physically, but socially as well, according to Mark. The man returned to his community with a sense of dignity, said Kraftchick, a professor at Emory University’s Candler School of Theology in Atlanta.

“A move toward universal health care would be fitting with the prophetic traditions,” Kraftchick said. “When you read the New Testament and look at the signs of the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God, it’s always connected to being physically healed.”

Yet Marcia Pally, an authority on evangelicals, said many evangelicals are wary of government doing the healing.  Their reasons go back centuries.

Many are the descendants of people who fled Europe because of religious persecution from countries and state churches. They fought a revolution against a government in England.  And they settled a frontier, where the virtue of self-reliance was critical, said Pally, author of “The New Evangelicals: Expanding the Vision of the Common Good.”

Suspicion of government is part of their historical and religious experience, said Pally, a professor at Fordham University and New York University.

Those attitudes, though, may be changing. Pally said she spent six years traveling across America to interview evangelicals. She discovered that a new generation of evangelists now believes that certain issues are too big and complex to be addressed by charity alone.

“Some note that charity is very good at the moment of emergency relief but it doesn’t change the underlying problem  unless structures that keep people poor, sick or deny their access to health insurance are changed,” she said.

No matter what the Supreme Court decides, the legal debate will continue. If more Americans go broke or die because they do not have health insurance, more Americans may ask, what would Jesus do?

But don’t expect any easy answers from the Bible, said Raschke, the religious studies professor at the University of Denver.

“People are always looking for support from the Bible for American political positions,” Rashke said. “Would Jesus be against abortion, or would he support a woman’s right to choose? It’s almost become a standard joke in the theological world that you quote Jesus in American politics to support your political views.

“The teachings of Jesus do not fit into the views of any political party."

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Christianity • Health care • Jesus • Politics

soundoff (5,234 Responses)
  1. DrPete

    “If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
    ― Stephen Colbert

    June 28, 2012 at 7:53 pm |
    • Billy

      here here

      June 28, 2012 at 7:55 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Exactly. Good thing Jesus didn't ask to photocopy an insurance card before healing isn't it?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:02 pm |
    • Steve

      I don't think it was done without condition. He knew their hearts. If they were truly needy and sincere, they were healed. If they were leaches on society, I suspect they might not have been.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It's "leeches", you stupid git.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:59 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son –

      Take a moment to celebrate – the Supreme Court ruled in favor of justice and good today.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Have celebrated big time.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Glad to hear it!

      Cheers

      June 28, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I just fear it will result in Obama's defeat in November.

      I hope it doesn't.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:10 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son –

      I think that's a valid concern; however, Romney?...Romney? Really? And, if odds are right and the President is reelected, hopefully he will drive the healthcare issue through to its logical conclusion – Universal Healthcare.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:14 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I agree, Really. Unfortunately, logic and reason has rarely ruled.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Crap! Edit: HAVE ruled!

      June 28, 2012 at 10:19 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son –

      Thank god the religious right has serious issues with Romney...we'll watch them eat their young! (isn't that right Chad?)

      June 28, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
    • The Bird Is The Word

      Well said.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      One can only hope that the nitwits see Romney as a worse evil than Obama, the idiots.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:26 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      That did NOT come out the way I meant it to....

      June 28, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      Now that's what I call hitting the nail squarly on the head.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      Rats should be

      ... squarely on the head.

      Wish the edit button actually worked.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:31 pm |
  2. Mark Taylor

    Jesus was one of the ultimate healthcare reformer. duh?

    June 28, 2012 at 7:53 pm |
  3. ariyahu

    its only 500 years ago. the messiah was here, the hebrew messiah that is, 2000 years ago.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:49 pm |
  4. Jack

    What a stupid question.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
  5. ariyahu

    the name of j-e-s-u-s is a lie.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Technically true. His name was Yeshua Yahweh. There are over 2,000 ancient manuscripts that corroborate his existence – up to you to figure out who he was – compare this to just 75 ancient manuscripts used to determine the Trojan War really did happen.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Mark

      And what manuscripts are these? Link to sources?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:03 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Aloha. open up almost any Bible translation and look at the story behind the translation. You can also google this little goody.http://www.consider.org/library/text.htm

      June 28, 2012 at 8:09 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      So nothing extrabiblical then. Sorry but manuscripts of the same book are not evidenciary of anything.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      And you can say he wasn't who he said he was, that's fair enough. However, the 20,000 ancient manuscripts is actually a fact. I was also shocked when I learned this – and I was skeptical. The existence of the person, whoever he was, is not in dispute.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:12 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Aloha. Just google it and take the time to research rather than just dismiss out of hand, I'm not saying anything about divinity; just the history, it's not in dispute. The manuscripts are there, start with Dead Sea Scrolls and that is just the beginning.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:13 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Read, be skeptical, that's fine but read rather than just blow it off. http://www.consider.org/library/text.htm

      June 28, 2012 at 8:16 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Wow it magically jumped from 2000 to 20,000, now that's some impressive stuff. Sorry I don't usually try to be insulting but that one was to obvious for me to pass up. Now here's the thing, I will concede that the person himself probably existed, or more likely was based on some other person as an idealized firgurehead. If the latter is true, then it logically follows that many things were exagerrated during the 30-100 years after his supposed death when it was written down. However, the existence of the actual person called Jesus is in no way undisputed.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:17 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Aloha: 2,000 was a typo on my part. it is in fact 20,000. I admit, that is a staggering number and I found it very hard to believe when I first began researching.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:19 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Hey Aloha: not insulted. Just read dude. don't just assume because of what this person or that person or even I happen to write or say. It's fascinating stuff. Good for the intellect. It will even strengthen your argument perhaps. It is always best to walk all the way 'round and issue and examine it from all directions.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:21 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Mark

      Well I took a look at the site, and it was nothing that I have not seen before. The thing that they fail to address is the time difference between the supposed death of Jesus and the earliest manuscripts leaves a lot of room for error in terms of passing it on verbally. Also, these are still only biblical references to Jesus, and my whole point is that there is nothing extrabiblical that is accepted in terms of establishing the existence of this specific person.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Mark

      I've done a whole lot of research about this and other religions as well. After I fell away from religion after failing to find any good evidence to back it up, I promised myself that I would not take anything on authority or faith again. I'm glad to say that I have held up my promise to myself since then.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
    • Servant of God

      @ hawaii im pretty sure you are familiar with this verse. Ephesians 2:8–9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. It is not from yourself or anything you've done, but the gift of God." John 8:47 "He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

      June 28, 2012 at 8:52 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Servant

      Yes I'm familiar with that particular call to accept circular reasoning and self delusion.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:54 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      Servant – I'm sorry but I don't think quoting scripture is going to really convince a skeptic. I totally rejected my church upbringing. Decided I was an agnostic. For me it took searching through Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Zen, Chogyum Trungpa, The Tao te Ching, Carl Sagan, Brian Greene, Einstein and then CS Lewis. CS Lewis' book Mere Christianity and it's logic that spirals from 50,000 miles to it's ultimate point. That is what finally convinced me. I read about the 20,000 manuscripts and the 75 Trojan War manuscripts around that time as well. I look at just the logic of the teachings of Jesus and they are so wonderful, so perfect, so full of humility, soulfulness, humanity and of course the recognition that we don't control everything and that there is something much bigger than us that would love to intervene in our lives. What a lot of the skeptics don't get is that Jesus hung out with the dregs of society and was usually in the faces of those who lived self-righteously. I love his life, I love that he's there and that he was historically real. His way, full of wonder (consider the perfect rate of expansion of our early universe that allows elementary particles to coalesce and form hydrogen. It had to be absolutely precise for that to happen. Hydrogen fuels our universe. it makes you and me possible), Christ is full of hope, full of love and goodness. Sure, many have perverted what he said and did and that is sad, but pointing back to him, he's perfect.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
    • Mark Taylor

      I left out the Bhagavad Gita and the Holy Q'ran too.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
  6. Kim33

    Matthew 25:31-46

    June 28, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • Billy

      There it is. Finally a bible quote pertinent to this point!

      June 28, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      from Mark Twain:

      It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand

      June 29, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
  7. ItSOnLyME

    Yes. Next question?

    June 28, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
  8. Loren

    "Render unto Caeser what is Caeser, and to God what is God's." -Jesus.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • Samuel

      yes yes, so pay your taxes and let them give to the poor and uninsured? Or stay out of government business and let the sick rot? Which argument are you making?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:49 pm |
    • Loren

      Pay your taxes, as Jesus did. But follower's of Jesus need not concern themselves with how Caeser spends that money so much as doing our own duty. "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." When the church does our job, then maybe we won't need to complain so much about what "Caesar" is or isn't doing.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
    • Loren

      Your two "suggestions" as to what arguments can be derived are really the same – and they're solely based on the render unto Caesar. Can't forget that second part.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      This health care law is telling the organizations that work for Christ in helping the sick, the poor and the oprhaned that they have to disobey God's laws on Human Dignity. It would be completely unacceptable to Jesus to disobey God.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:02 pm |
    • Samuel

      In other words, it is a cop out. He didn't want to get set up as anti-Rome when he was asked the question. Meanwhile Rome oppressed his people, his religion, warred around the world, enslaved and murdered innocents. So let the sick die, pay your taxes and thus support the oppression, but try to fix the little world in front of you because that is all you can affect. So be a happy pawn.

      Seriously he seemed to say way more than this with his actions. He challenged the system to its core, called for the religious in his towns to recognize god, he challenged Pilot himself by claiming that Caesar had no claim over the Kingdom of heaven. And he was killed as a result. He preached for people to change Caesar, and that is what we should be talking about now.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:04 pm |
    • Loren

      A cop out? You are right when you say he said way more than this with His actions. But you confuse why Jesus came to earth in the first place. "He has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released, that the blind will see, that the oppressed will be set free..." But you seem to think that the only oppression is from the government/Caesar. He set us free from the bondage of sin, from the sting of death, and from the yoke of the Law. He bruised the head of the serpent. The kingdom he established (which you are right in saying that Caesar had no claim on) was not of this earth. There will always be oppression as long as men have free will. "We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body." But we are free. And we should proclaim that good news the the rest of the earth, with the same compassion and love in action that Jesus showed. But it is not a "health and wealth" gospel.

      The problem with all of this is trying to bring Jesus into a place that never wanted Jesus. This country was set up to have a separation of church and state and it has taken that quite far. So it's irresponsible to only call upon His teachings when it benefits a particular agenda.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:50 pm |
    • Servant of God

      Great posts loren enough said. John 8:47 "He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God

      June 28, 2012 at 8:59 pm |
  9. Servant of God

    Denying the existence of God doesnt make God cease to exist. It simply makes the blasphmer irrelevent and unworthy of living. Who is worthy to live denying the Giver of life? What is God to a non-believer? He is God. Just as the sun still shines over the blind man who denys it's existence, God regins over the believing and non-believing. Limited blind beings deny God and mortal fools ask for proof of His existence. The dead man walking denys Jesus Christ God's only begotten Son. Blasphmers who die asking for proof will be given proof by God Himself after death. The wrath of God will be more than enough proof reminding them day and night that He is God All-Powerful over the living and the dead..

    June 28, 2012 at 7:45 pm |
    • Samuel

      That god sounds mean. Really you think people who have not been told about your god are unworthy of living? Myopic point of view.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • HeIsGod

      Ha! Praise the name of the Lord! We are nothing without Him for HeIsGod alone!

      June 28, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • ItSOnLyME

      Wow... really? That really frightens me. Did god tell you to kill me?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • Servant of God

      A fool walks up to the empire state building demanding proof that the building has a builder. How much more foolish is the one who asks the creator of earth for proof that He exist? Woe to this person's soul and may God have mercy on this cursed one.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Servant

      A completely irrelevant and, quite frankly, a stupid analogy.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
    • Samuel

      Servant, you must then claim that the builder of the building demand you worship him or else he will strike you down once you exit the building and condemn you to torture for all of your days.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:06 pm |
    • Servant of God

      @ samuel. Is it unjust or unlawful for the Creator to do what ever He pleases with the created? Is it unjust or unlawful for God to be angry with beings under Him denying His existence because the proof around them just isnt enough? Is it unjust or unlawful for God to give non-believers exactly what they are asking for, eternal seperation from Him? Is it unjust or unlawful for God to strip life from a non-believer when He is the one who gives it? God judges perfectly in righteously, all He is doing is giving those who deny Him what they are asking for. God is life, if you are not in love with Him you are simply blindly in love with death.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      So then might makes right in your view. Got it.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:25 pm |
    • Servant of God

      @hawaii elaborate please. Although i do agree with you. It is much more obvious that the earth and everything in it has a Creator than the empire state building have a builder. Earth is a system designed to sustain life, is the empire state building? Plants, people, and animals all have life. What part of the empire state building contains life? The earth hasnt failed yet to provide us all sorts of food, what has the empire state building produced? Better yet was has man produced or created from scratch? Last time i checked the empire state building's existence is only possible due to the much needed elements earth consistently provides us with.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:33 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Servant

      "Earth is a system designed to sustain life"
      Actually, you're wrong. Life adapts to the environment around it, not the other way around. This has been shown over and over again.
      You still are unable to provide anything other than what I think is an argument from ignorance, although it's hard to tell because you never actually get to stating any position.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:43 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by 'Servant of God' contains repeated instances of the Begging the Question fallacy, the Non Causa Pro Causa fallacy, and other basic fallacies.

      http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

      June 28, 2012 at 8:44 pm |
    • Servant of God

      @ hawaii if you can sit here and say that earth does not sustain life when people having been living off of earth for millions of years, you my friend are truly foolish. Even if we adapt it still sustains life. and i see you didnt answer any of my questions. By the way i read your other posts about you saying you vow to never have faith. I am sorry to hear that and i will pray for you. Im pretty sure you are familiar with this verse. Ephesians 2:8–9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. It is not from yourself or anything you've done, but the gift of God." John 8:47 "He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

      June 28, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
    • Chad

      @Servant "Earth is a system designed to sustain life"

      =>100% true.
      It's a fallacy that life could have adapted to any environment presented.. an environment had to be presented in the first place

      "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life." Stephen Hawking

      June 28, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Servant

      I didn't answer your other questions because they are completely irrelevant. And when did I say that our current ecosystem doesn't provide for life? I'm saying that the earth was not "created" specifically for life, and merely is in a place that allows for life as we know it to evolve and adapt to it. If you can't figure out the difference, then you might need to start praying for yourself.

      I know your little quote, and sorry but I don't much feel like being called into circular reasoning and self delusion, as I stated on the other thread.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      More quote mining from a person who is quite outspoken on being an atheist. Have fun with your fallacious idiocy.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:05 pm |
    • Chad

      "Life adapts to the environment around it, not the other way around"

      =>I see that one a lot, the same structure of the argument is used by atheists when they say "well, of course it's not impossible that we have evolved, we're here arent we?"

      That structure actually satisfies to fallacious argument types, begging the question, and the Post Hoc fallacy

      Begging the question (“assuming the initial point") is a type of logical fallacy in which a proposition is made that uses its own premise as proof of the proposition. In other words, it is a statement that refers to its own assertion to prove the assertion. Such arguments are essentially of the form "a is true because a is true" though rarely is such an argument stated as such. Often the premise 'a' is only one of many premises that go into proving that 'a' is true as a conclusion.

      The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." This has been traditionally interpreted as "After this, therefore because of this." This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • Chad

      @HawaiiGuest "More quote mining from a person who is quite outspoken on being an atheist. Have fun with your fallacious idiocy."

      =>2 points:
      1) not quote mining, Hawking believes the universe is fine tuned for life.. end of story.
      2) he, like many atheists, posit naturalistic reasons for this, do some reading:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe#Possible_naturalistic_explanations

      June 28, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
    • Servant of God

      @hawaii are you seriously that blind? How was earth not created for life? There earth has always been filled with life in countless forms nd it is filled with life now. But according to you it wasnt made for life? Was fire not meant to be hot? Or water wet? Your claims are senseless and absurd.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      In response to your earlier statement, when have I ever said that life can adapt to any environment? Also, your fine-tuning definition automatically includes your god, so citing Hawking, who proposes naturalistic process that lead to the appearance of fine-tuning, is an attempt to find an authority that you can quote to give your own position an appearance of validity. What was that fallacy again?
      Also, evolution has been PROVEN to occur, hence its label as a scientific theory. We have proven common ancestory, and the argument for evolution does not boil down to your idiotic statement of "well we're here aren't we". Your dishonesty is getting worse and worse Chad.

      @Servant

      We know how planets form through naturalistic processes.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:29 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @HawaiiGuest –
      Just more or Chad hijacking science and equivocating. Silly Chad, honesty's for non-believers (and for honest believers, but that doesn't include Chad).

      June 28, 2012 at 9:53 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @HawaiiGuest –
      or = of...of course.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chad is an utter moron. If the environment had been different, the life forms would have been different.

      What a friggin' idiot. God didn't make this environment for us, you dumbazz. Life forms adapted to an environment.

      Jesus, what a dolt.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
    • Chad

      @HawaiiGuest "Also, your fine-tuning definition automatically includes your god, so citing Hawking, who proposes naturalistic process that lead to the appearance of fine-tuning, is an attempt to find an authority that you can quote to give your own position an appearance of validity. What was that fallacy again?"
      @Chad "???
      look, that the universe is fine tuned for the building blocks of life is a statement from the scientific community.
      You are so petrified of anything a theist says being true, you are loosing touch with reality..

      The reason they look for causes of that fine tuning, is because they observe it.

      =========
      @HawaiiGuest "Also, evolution has been PROVEN to occur"
      @Chad "I agree, theistic evolution is a fact.
      that's what you were talking about, right? I know you wouldnt purposefully misuse a general term to create a false impression.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:28 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chad's posts=Chad is a moron.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      Again with the little pet term of theistic evolution. Maybe you should actually bring something that hasn't been shot to sh.it.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:31 pm |
    • Really-O?

      "theistic evolution"...what? You mean like "theistic gravity" and "theistic bacteriology"? Oh my, that Chad is one silly fellow!

      June 28, 2012 at 10:34 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      HG, you'd be lucky if Chad brought potato salad...

      June 28, 2012 at 10:35 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @HawaiiGuest & Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son –

      Ladies, you do have to give Chad credit for evolving; his fallback position is still "god did it", but at least he has out-and-out accepted that evolution is a fact (that wasn't the case six months ago). Who knows, before too long he may step into the 21st century and give up his silly god tosh.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Nope. Sorry, but Chard is still a dolt. He might be less idiotic than he used to be, but the difference is minuscule. He's still far from anything approaching sentient, let alone intelligent.

      No quarter; no mercy.

      June 28, 2012 at 10:50 pm |
    • Chad

      I do enjoy you folks 😉

      be sure to check this out:
      infidels.org(why theistic evolution is wrong): http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bart_klink/evolution.html
      overview: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
      Francis Collins (director of human genome project) http://biologos.org/questions/biologos-id-creationism

      I found a lot of atheist sites describing how theistic evolution was wrong.. but I couldnt find any at all that said it was an invention of mine.

      🙂

      remember, getting more educated never hurt anyone!

      June 28, 2012 at 11:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Then why don't you get more education, Chad?

      June 28, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Chad may not have invented "theistic evolution", but it is still a nonsensical phrase...unless, of course, you're willing to accept terms like "theistic gravity".

      June 28, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...or, how about "theistic atheism"...now that's a doozy!

      June 28, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Subsequent posts by 'Chad' contain instances of the the circ-umstantial ad hominem fallacy, more instances of the Non Causa Pro Causa fallacy, plus the Willed Ignorance fallacy, along with a large set of non sequitur material.

      http://www.fallacyfiles.org

      June 28, 2012 at 11:33 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Subsequent post by 'Servant of God' contains yet more instances of the Begging the Question fallacy.

      http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

      June 28, 2012 at 11:36 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      Theistic evolution is just evolution, and instead of natural selection, you slap god onto there and claim science and proof. All it is is another god of the gaps idiocy.

      June 29, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • Chad

      @HawaiiGuest "Theistic evolution is just evolution, and instead of natural selection, you slap god onto there and claim science and proof."
      =>no, completely wrong really..
      species change over time has to do with two forces, mutation and natural selection.
      Theistic evolution deals with the supernatural influence/direction of the former (mutation), not the latter (natural selection).

      June 29, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      Ok so "theistic evolution" asserts that god directs the mutations (properly variations, two different things). It's still an untestable . . . hypothesis is to nice of a term . . . assertion I suppose.

      June 29, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
    • Rachel

      Chad-Fantastic posts!

      🙂

      June 29, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @HawaiiGuest –

      "Theistic evolution" also makes Chad's god an incompetent a'sshole – Incompetent for creating all of the mutations that are neutral, and an as'shole for creating all of the disadvantageous mutations that cause incalculable suffering. Good fellow that god of Abraham.

      June 29, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      It doesn't even really matter where you stick your god, that being still hasn't been shown to exist, nor has there been any evidence that there has been any kind of outside interference in the evolutionary process.

      June 29, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
  10. CommonSense

    More speculation about what a fictional character would do! I think the Jesus character would meet with the Leprechaun, and together they would wave magic wands and POOF!! All the guns in the world would vanish.
    And nobody would ever get sick or hurt one another again.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:45 pm |
    • Servant of God

      The difference between Jesus and the leprechaun is that Jesus wo lived more than 2000 years ago; is the most powerfull figure known to man. For generations Jesus has claimed more followers than any other. Whos name can match His? Today millios would happily die for the Son of God. Am i wrong? Ope your eyes, your foolishness and pride is destroying your soul.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:38 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by 'Servant of God' is an instance of the ad populum fallacy and contains a series of non sequitur statements.

      http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

      June 28, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
  11. M.E.

    You go pray to whoever you want to fix your diseases, I'm going to go to an actual medical doctor and have them fix it. God and jesus have nothing to do with this unless you're such a failure that you have no moral compass without some deity to tell you right from wrong. Healing sick people is right, denying that is wrong. No god necessary.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:44 pm |
    • HeIsGod

      But the currency that you use to see a doctor says "IN GOD WE TRUST" so I advice you to go to the doctor without money and let's see what he can do for you.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • Samuel

      those words were placed there by politicians not priests. It means nothing, it is MONEY.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • HeIsGod

      It means nothing if you don't use it. So, since it's nothing, don't use it at all.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
    • Danny

      For those thinking they don't need to go to a doctor to be cured, think about this: Maybe advances in medicine and medical treatment are the answers to prayers you have been praying... (thank you, Simpsons)

      June 28, 2012 at 8:02 pm |
    • Samuel

      silly thought process. So if you write a religious statement on a toilet and use it, are you crapping on god?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      Christians are allowed to go to the doctor? Where did you get the impression that we didn't and we only pray? Besides that reality is that we all have have little control over our health if the medicine or surgery doesn't work for us we aren't in control any more.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:08 pm |
    • Danny

      I'm not saying all Christians. I am a Christian. Just those that pray for everyone to get better and do nothing about it.

      You know, you're the third person on my own side that has taken what I said wrong today...

      June 28, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • Arms of Hope

      Voice of Reason – Exactly. I don't understand why Danny thinks that Christians only prays and doesn't do anything about it?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:17 pm |
    • Danny

      Holy steaming crap, people. Are you even reading with intelligence what I write?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:21 pm |
  12. Les Too

    This Health Care act helps many people that have been kept from healthcare. The businesses which will be affected MUST have 50 or more employees and will not affect people who only make certain amounts of money. This legislation is clearly needed BECAUSE the vast majority of those claiming to be Xtians are NOT following the commandments laid down in the New Testament, let alone practicing a little humanitarian decency..

    Jesus was of noble birth and was at least one of those in line for David's throne. He was not poor nor was he pound wise and penny foolish. Of course, he was involved in the politics of his day . That's why he was executed. Hero0d viewed him as a threat to the throne which he clearly was by ancestry.

    On another note- Xtians are COMMANDED by their religion (and it's god) to care for the sick, the poor, the homeless and those in prison and love every single person unconditionally, without exception, especially their enemies.. They are forbidden to take another Xtian to court. If you really can't get past the sin of the sinner, you are COMMANDED to shake the dust from your feet and walk away without looking back,. Period.. A Xtian that does not do these things is NOT a true Xtian by any interpretation. To believe otherwise is decidedly unXtian and puts you firmly in the ranks of Lucifer, the lord of Light, doing things that seem good to a man.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      Umm Herod didn't execute Jesus, Pontius Pilate did but he was arrested by caiaphas and the high priests for being blasphmy. if Joseph and Mary were wealthy why was Jesus born in an animal stall, instead of nice room at the Inn that turned Mary and Joesph away because it was full. And why did the Nazoreans who grew up with Jesus try to throw Jesus off the clliff when he returned to Nazereth after he started preaching because he was only the son of a carpenter. Why did Mary and Joseph bring piegons to the Temple for Jesus' presentation because a wealthy family would have brought a lamb like its ancestors did in Egypt?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:55 pm |
    • mike adzonni

      A lot of people have been "kept" from health services because of the price–escalated by malpractice premiums, precipitated by no "caps" on medical mishaps(lawyers win). Actually, Christ was poor-an a refugee(went to Eqypt). And yes, if the monarchial system had still been in place, he would have been in line for the throne. He wasn't much involved in politics-others used his presence for political demogoguery. Herod didn't view losing the throne to Christ, but rather decried the following of all the people after Jesus , and the backlash of Rome. Christians are required to help the sick, and became known for that in their early days, even caring for their enemies. Actually you can take another Christian to court-after exhausting all other means-and truth be known, all Christians do not act perfectly or correctly-and the Lord will sometimes use the statist laws as His instrument. You shake the dust off your feet if after explaining the things of God to the said parties, they continually scorn and reject. And yes , you can be a "true" Christian and not follow every precept of Jesus. It has to do with being saved, but not being perfect. Of course, you should try(in His power). I do agree with you that God has called His people, and not the state, to care for the poor and sick. Same with prayers being in the home and church, and not by the state. But as you are aware, Christians are not doing well at that. Peace.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:09 pm |
  13. G. Zeus Kreiszchte

    Jeezus was a Socialist and/or a hippie, so YES he would support.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      Jesus didn't fight Ceasar unless it violated God's laws on human dignity.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:46 pm |
    • HeIsGod

      Who is Jeezus? Never heard of him. Would you like to explain who he is?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • Samuel

      Spelling nazi shows up to religious discussion forum

      June 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
  14. Bishop Hairy Palms

    Right wingers,

    You must be mistaken. Obama isn't the brown skinned socialist going around trying to give everyone free health care. That was Jesus.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:38 pm |
    • ItSOnLyME

      Prezactly. He healed the sick and didn't send them a bill (remember Sunday School gang?). That's socialized medicine if there ever was any. He fed the hungry too. Again, socialist. Y'all are gonna need to lynch this Jesus fella. PS: He wasn't a good looking white guy either, regardless of what the picture in the front of your bible might depict.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • Danny

      ItSON, you are completely correct. The Bible even says that He wasn't good-looking that anyone should desire Him. Basically, He was homely...

      June 28, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
    • HeIsGod

      I myself have never seen how Christ looks and even if I did, it's not His looks that drew me to Him but His humble Spirit and love that He has for me.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      So what Bishop seems to be saying is that he doesn't believe in Jesus and most Christians don't really follow Him. Never the less, we should make Christian teaching the law of the land, especially if he likes the teaching. Do I have that right? Isn't that what liberal non-believers accuse the right wing evangelicals of?

      June 29, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
  15. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things :

    June 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
    • Samuel

      Did you pray for publicly funded health care reform?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
    • Samuel

      Are other living things capable of being theists or atheists?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • did

      you?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • try reading comprehension

      samuel

      June 28, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • Samuel

      tried it. Must not have worked for me. Something I am missing?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:43 pm |
    • Les Too

      What scientific proof are you basing this broad assumption on? Citation and author please.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:46 pm |
    • @samuel

      yes

      June 28, 2012 at 7:46 pm |
    • Angry Annie

      Prayer don't do squat. Hard work is what gets thing done.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things stated once again and again and again Ad Nauseum,
      "Prayer changes things"

      Earlier I challenged you to do something positive for humanity by praying to stop the international forced sëx trafficking of an estimatated 800,000 people.

      To wit,

      I see your prayers to stop the estimated 800,000 people who are forced into sëx traficking across international borders have not worked.
      Wait since prayer changes things that means you have not been praying to stop this scourge on humanity.

      Why won't you pray to stop this repulsive human abuse?

      Matthew 21:21:
      I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
      _______________________________________________________________________
      [A true believer can ask a mountain to throw itself into the sea, and it will be done. LOL!]
      _______________________________________________________________________

      Mark 9:23
      All things are possible to him who believes.

      Luke 1:37:
      For with God nothing will be impossible.

      John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

      John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

      John 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.

      Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible.

      So there you have it, straight from Jesus in the New Testament in clear, simple, and unequivocal terms.

      You are a sincere believer are you not?

      Time for the troll to put up or shut up. Well I am watching the news to learn of your success. LOL

      June 28, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      Prayer changes things
      Proven :

      June 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • Samuel

      Ok perhaps I did not ask clearly enough. I will try again. If I am missing something, care to tell me what it is I missed with my horrible reading comprehension? I was asking if "other living things" were capable of being theists or atheists. I am told "reading comprehension" Keep up folks, this is getting boring.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
    • HeIsGod

      ElmerGantry – How possibly can you understand what prayer means or how it works?

      "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6).

      June 28, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      @Samuel,

      Don't try too hard to get an answer. The only thing this troll knows how to do is post non sequiter one liners. It very rarely answered a question.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
    • Samuel

      Elmer – precisely. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Must be the holy spirit?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:09 pm |
  16. saywhatyoumean

    What does it matter if he would have supported health care reform or not. Are we so stuck on the idea that we have to make every decision in our lives as if Jesus were the one making them, that we can't think for ourselves ? What happened to individual Christian freedom ? Doing something different than what Jesus would have done does not negate a person loving him and he is fine with that, I am sure. Just because a person is role model does not make him a clone.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      Catholics have been advocating for afforable health care since the Hoover Administration, they were blindsided when the day finally came that Americans would get afforable health care that the same law was going to require them to violate God's laws on human dignity which they wont violate.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      VoR – concise and cogent.

      June 29, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
  17. DMB, Atlanta, Ga

    At least I now know my nephew who is autistic and has other health problems will be covered and that my niece won't have to kill herself working 3 jobs just to pay living expenses and care for her children. I feel Jesus being merciful and loving would say that it's a step in the right direction. He said feed the hungry, clothe the naked and give shelter to the homeless. It also means take care of thew sick and defenseless.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
  18. Dontbflat88

    Today, Jesus would have been thrown in jail for practicing medicine without a license at the behest of medical organizations because noone was coming to the hospital any more. Moreover, if every Christian truly followed and obeyed Christ, then they would be able to heal people and do graeater things than he was able to do in HIs short time here on this earth. Unfortunately, many have become self-righteous and self-centered, talking the talk, but not walking the walk. If you follow HIs life as written in the Bible, He would have been an independent. He didn't start any wars, didn't spend money beyond His means, and everyone was treated with dignity and respect, unless they were total hyporites.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • Samuel

      If Jesus were practicing medicine he would have died at 33 years old, half a million dollars in debt, only in his third year of practice, and having already been sued twice for malpractice.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
    • Arms of Hope

      There would be no need to have practiced medicine much less go to medical school to be a physician when He is the HEALER of all sickness and disease. All it takes for one to be healed is FAITH.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
    • Samuel

      They must have had a lot more faith than my dead Christian friend. How much is enough?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:45 pm |
  19. Samuel

    What is Jesus' view on the increasing costs of MRI requests from publicly funded Emergency Rooms? Also, what is Jesus' take on FCC regulations preventing profanity during prime time viewing for non-cable broadcasters? While we are on this, what do you think Jesus would think about legislative anti-piracy plans to block websites by court order in order to protect copyright holders from infringements?

    June 28, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
    • Les Too

      He would be angry that the cost of an MRI has not fallen down to where it should be after all these years and be glad that they wouldn't have to expose patients to deadly radiation. Profanity is described by the society that uses it. What is "profane" today, is not what will be profane in the future. Is there actually a New Testament reference to profanity and what its definition? No. I thought so.Piracy and "intellectual" copy rights are are the work of modern civilization and are less that 250 yrs.old. Copying and printing other peoples work was before then a sign of appreciation to the author. Jesus would not have had an opinion on it other than catigating the interpretors of various Bible translations for daring to claim copyright on the word of God. Period. Despite the whinings of musicians and book writers, the common citizen is allowed by copyright law to make copies for education and/or non-commercial purposes. Period. Get over it. Sing another song or write another book.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
  20. czar33

    Best wishes with staying cancer free, extreamly happy that you got a job and now are paying your dues to Social Security, Sounds like you were a 'KEPT' women when you were married, I have way too many of them in my neighborhood in Northern Somerset County New Jersey, They are lazy and need to know what it is to work. God Bless You!

    June 28, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.