July 5th, 2012
01:11 PM ET
My Take: Will there be gays in heaven? Will there be fat people?
Editor's Note: Craig Gross is the pastor and founder of XXXchurch.com and is the author of seven books. He just turned 36 and is no longer a hip 20-something pastor from California.
By Craig Gross, Special to CNN
After Anderson Cooper came out this week, I posted a link on Twitter to a story that included this quote from Cooper: “I love and am loved.” As I said in my tweet, Cooper is one of my favorite journalists. I was honored to once be on his show.
After I tweeted I got e-mails and a direct message asking the same question: "You still like him now?"
I was saddened by that reaction and started thinking: What would happen if we read the Bible and, instead of highlighting certain passages, we took it all for what it is - truth.
In 1 Corinthians, the Bible says don't indulge your body with food or sex: “‘Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food,’ and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is meant not for fornication but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.”
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
I deal with people who indulge their bodies with sex. I’ve done it for 10 years with XXXchurch.com, helping people caught up in porn addiction.
If you indulge your body with sex via pornography, affairs, strippers or hookers, and your secrets are exposed, you will not be preaching on Sunday. Sexual sin is not tolerated in our churches. If clergy are caught in these things, they’re disqualified.
What if you indulge your body with food? Well, then you can pastor some of the largest churches on the planet and have the most successful broadcasts on the religious channels and sell a lot of books.
CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories
Same biblical passage, same sin. Why is one accepted and one rejected? Why is it that religious folks want to camp out on a few things rather then all things?
Why do they believe that the gay guy goes to hell but the fat preacher who builds some of the largest churches in the world makes it to heaven?
I have no problem bringing my fat friends to church; they fit right in. Our Los Angeles church has doughnuts to eat during worship service, which makes the hymns we sing sound so much better.
My Take: Why many Christians focus on homosexuality
I coached my son's soccer team last year. My assistant coach is a lesbian. My son became great friends with her son, and my wife and I have become good friends with his mom and her partner. We played on three teams this year with them and have spent time in each others’ homes.
Could I bring them to church? Absolutely not.
Most evangelical Christians don't have gay friends. We just have gay stereotypes and we base our beliefs on a few biblical passages, ignoring passages about things that people in the church really struggle with, like food and other addictions.
The problem is that the church has only one answer for homosexuality: Don't be gay. Come as you are, but you'd better not be gay. But you can be fat.
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Most Christians believe you should just help your friends to not be gay when, in all honesty, only Christ can do that.
I love my lesbian friends. Let’s say I share Christ with them and they accept Jesus - or maybe they already have. Where do they go to church?
There is no way I would send them to an evangelical church, because not everyone would treat them the way they should be treated. But if they attend a gay church many Christians look at them as crazy.
People will push you to take a stand one way or the other on homosexuality, but no one has ever asked me to take a stand when it comes to fat people.
The goal shouldn’t be to change anyone's sexuality. Ultimately, I believe homosexuality gets blown way out of proportion in our churches. If we would all see gays as fellow sinners instead of “others,” there wouldn't be a need for gay outreach, because they would already be incorporated into our community based on a shared need for Christ.
God loves gays and Jesus is for them. God loves the fat preacher. Homosexual activity and overeating are both sins - just like speeding, gossip, lying and cheating. I think I did all of those just today.
All are forgivable in Christ and, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, can be changed. Just remember that change does not happen overnight.
Have you ever seen someone lose 100 pounds overnight? The process takes time. When it comes to the Lord, it’s nothing less than a journey of sanctification.
And wherever you are at on that journey, I think there should be a place for you at church. Because there’s probably one in heaven.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Craig Gross.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
People still think there is a heaven and a hell? The truth is, those that believe in such places always feel that everyone doing something worse than them will get into hell but they will be heading to heaven. Which is why you always have some idiot stating that when even the worst sinner dies that "God was with them and that they are in a better place now" or replace better place with heaven. Seriously.......sometimes I can't help but wonder if we did have to account for our actions regardless of the religion we choose, if the atheists and those that didn't wrap themselves up in religion so much would "pass" the test more than the religious fanatics. Look at it this way, since the beginning of man, everytime we have made a claim about the world that puts humans or human likeness at the center, we have been wrong. Religion is no different, we are wrong. I swear, it's going to take an alien or a talking monkey to get people to realize how dumb all of this really is.
You would think a visit from aliens would stop it, right? Wrong. Taking religion away from people in one defining moment is as painful as Wolverine getting the adamantium ripped from his body by Magneto (hello comic geeks 😉 ) It will have to phase out over generations. Fewer of the younger generations will pick up the tradition of practicing religion as we become more educated about our place in the universe. My predicition.
Do theists on here realise that they sound like total îdiots? fairy tales and myths have no impact on reality! you should try to think rationally once in a while!
That's impossile for those of strong faith. Any information that threatens their faith is courtesy of the devil. That being said, new information contradicting the Bible is a trick by the devil who rules over the Earth. That is what you're fighting; a complete and total mind-screwing.
Opinion of the Christian Church (the Roman Catholic Church is no Christian Church):
"Why do they believe that the gay guy goes to hell but the fat preacher who builds some of the largest churches in the world makes it to heaven?", Mr. Gross said.
Nowhere in the Bible we can read that overweight is a sin. Probable reason: The cause of overweight doesn't have to be bulimia (addiction for food) always, but can have also other causes (disposition, diseases, lack of exercise, etc.). In no case we should judge fat people. Only if we observe that someone eats much too much, we should exhort him.
Of course, gluttony is a deadly sin like gayness, whereby it is more difficult to assess, if someone suffers from gluttony than from gayness. Of couse, a fresser or muncher will never enter heaven. Heaven is the eternal tenement of the people, which have been cured from their maladies by God's Grace, that means by faith in Jesus and his death and resurrection.
If I had a greedy or gay workmate, I would never hate him, but treat him very kindly. The only thing, which I could not accept, is, if he or she would like to join the Church without repentance. Inside the Church shall be only people, which have been reconciled with God by the gospel of Jesus Christ:
God, the Father, delivered God, the Son, Jesus, for our sins and raised him from the dead for our justification.
Everybody who believes that and gets baptized becomes righteous (not only a label of righteousness, but righteousness in daily life affairs). They who believe get a new life from God for free, which is not in conflict with the law or the commandments. Christian love is the fullfillment of the law.
The mystery of baptism: We get metaphysically connected with Christ's death and resurrection. We die for the sin and enter Christ or receive the Holy Spirit. By the power of Christ's death and resurrection we overcome our body, which is sinful in itself. Even if we have a gay or a greedy body, we can overcome its sin, because Jesus Christ is stronger than our sinfulness. If one has yet received infant baptism, he shall refer to it and not get baptized again.
ALERT! you have been completely brainwashed!! get a life!
Really? Only saved people should attend church? How does one get saved then. They must have faith, and faith by hearing, but how do they hear if one doesn't speak. Yes, on the streets and elsewhere, but the platform is for preaching the gospel of good news of salvation; therefore, sinners should be in Church to hear. By the way, even the minute your saved, or baptised or filled with the Holy Ghost, you still sin. That's the great battle, our flesh vs. the Spirit. Ye who is without sin cast the first stone (saved or unsaved). That was spoken to the righteous, not the Gentiles. Saved people need to stop judging others, and start praying for themsleves to not be sifted like wheat, and for others to come to know Christ. Love the sinner, hate the sin. All the sinner bashing has made people hate the Church; hence, the church no longer has credible ambassadors to spread the Gospel. And sin flourishes.
" Opinion of the Christian Church (the Roman Catholic Church is no Christian Church)"
This simple statement is evidence that Rainer is one those Christians who has a super duper double top secret magic decoder ring that allows him to determine who is and who isn't a "real" Christian. Lots of Christians, like Rainer, have these super duper double top secret magic decoder rings. The problem is that each of them have their super duper double top secret magic decoder rings on different settings.
One Sandusky and one Magnotta certaily casts a spell on what it is to be gay. They have quite a way to bounce back, if they ever will.
Sandusky is a pedophile. Magnotta is a psychotic murderer.
What does your post have to do with being gay?
Both those people were born with the desire to commit those acts, and those acts occur naturally in nature. Therefore, those acts were completely OK with God, and they shouldn't be condemned by a judgmental public.
Some examples of christian serial killers are Andrea Yates, James Kopp, Dennis Rader aka the BTK killer, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, David Berkowicz and many more.
Apart from these serial killers, It was also discovered that ‘Josef Fritzl’, man who kept his daughter in a cellar for 24 years and r.aped her over 3000 times was a devout roman catholic.
Phillip Garrido and Nancy Garrido, who kidnapped and imprisoned Jaycee Dugard for 18 years were/are fundamentalist Christians.
Billy: Those acts were okay with God?
We are born into sin and the desire for sinnful acts, as those acts are. People are born gay, liars, theifs,etc, that is the fleshy desire. People with a moral conscious repel the desires to remain in society, but those who lose the ability to hold back those desires commit the act. Even those who claim to be Christian have the desires to commit those acts.
First off, there is no indication that either is gay. Sandusky is a pedophile and would have abused females if given the chance. Magnotta more than likely swung both ways and is believed to have been using Bath Salts at the time of his crime.
Second, neither of them will get a chance to bounce back.
Sandusky faces a minimum of close to 400 years in prison and Magnotta will more than likely enter a plea of insanity and be put in an asylum for the criminally insane. If ever found fit to stand trial he will more than likely be like Paul Bernardo and registered as a Dangerous Offender and will never walk the streets a free man again. My wonderful country tends to take cannibalism quite seriously thankfully.
Sorry Billy, but that's just more crap and lies. Why compare hômosèxuality to pedophilia and murder? Hômosèxuality is legal. Pedophilia and murder are illegal. A more apt comparison would be comparing hômosèxuality to heterosèxuality. Both are legal sèxual orientations. Not sure you you hômophobic bigots are unable to understand this basic concept.
"The worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it" – Zizek. This is the most dangerous form of bigotry imaginable – the faux progressive tolerant variety. The evolution of "hate the sin love the sinner" which is now an avoided cliche but still operative.
So you advocate hating both?
It doesn't matter if people like gays or not, because, they are and always will be. They are born gay and cannot change. If all people are made in God's image, then maybe God is gay too. How about that? Even if you lock up all gays behind an electric fence and let them just die out (as one Pastor stated), they would not perish, because straight people make gay people and that's why there will always be gays. It's a catch 22. Get over it.
Well,, they may not always be. This congenital birth defect (a brain pathology) is now well understood. Maybe some people will decide not to have gay babies and abort them?
Sorry yahoo, but just more crap. Being born gay is no more a birth defect than being born left-handed or black.
@Primewonk – Does being left handed or black prevent you from having kids? Also, being that you are free thinking, shouldn't we lower the age of consent to 15? Having s e x with a 14 year old is natural, the desire is God given, and it has been done since the beginning.
Sorry Billy, but do you hômophobic bigots think being born gay renders you sterile? Millions of gay folks have kids.
As to your inane drivel about age of consent – it's YOUR god who has a thing for sèx with kids. Can a child give informed consent? Can a child enter a valid civil contract. Current research shows that the prefrontal cortex is not fully integrated until about age 21-22.
"There is no way I would send them to an evangelical church, because not everyone would treat them the way they should be treated. But if they attend a gay church many Christians look at them as crazy."
THERE IT IS - So really Christians, at least some of them, DO hate the "sinner" as well as the sin
thank you for confirming it Mr Gross
He never said anything about "Hate". Don't put words in people's mouths.
In addition to adding the word "hate" when it wasn't used, you are twisting with "So really Christians, at least some of them..."
Read what Rev Gross wrote (that you quoted). Read your reply. Now, how do you defend "So really Christians, at least some of them..." in this context? You could easily defend "So some Christians..." but that's not what you wrote.
I challenge you to defend your words.
alright then... Christian discriminate and Christians are bigots
God has no problem with child abuse, wife abuse, ra pe, murder, incest, but hom ose xuality, for get it. If you are a les bian then you really don't have a prayer because everyone knows God hates women.
Why is this one of the main articles displayed? It is so ridiculous that in 2012 people are still believing in these sort of fairy tales, and even more ridiculous that these sorts of stories are in the mainstream news.
The point really is, as an atheist, who cares if I get into heaven or not? That's my business, and God's if he or she exists, and nobody else's. If there is a just God, then we will be judged by our actions, not our woods. Love the brother or sister as thyself, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you are the main teachings of Jesus. Judge not, lest ye be judged. How can people who claim to be Christians overlook and explain their biases when this is what God clearly wants us to do above all else?
It's not that I don't believe in a higher power – I just don'y believe that you brand of religion has exclusive rights to god.
This video wraps it up better than the article.
If you live your life looking down your nose at people who you feel are below you, you live will live a life of disallusioun and blame for those you feel are less then you. Not the ideals the Jesus taught.
God loves all of His children, gay, straight, fat, and thin as they are. The Bible does not condemn h o m o s e x u a l i t y when it is put in cultural and historical context and read using reason, as Jesus did.
How do you know what god thinks, for christ's sake. Please humble yourself a little.
pluckey – I am a gay man, and after many years of prayer and Scripture study, I have come to understand that God loves me just as I am. I believe that God loves all of his children as they are, as long as they are not harming others.
That's the cool thing about a fantasy - it can be ANYTHING that you can think of!
Casey you are going to hell unless you change your "choice". You are a filthy perverted sinner. You make a mockery of God acting gay.
"Casey you are going to hell unless you change your "choice". You are a filthy perverted sinner. You make a mockery of God acting gay."
Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
"You make a mockery of God acting gay."
And that's the down side of fantasy...
There is no heaven and there is no hell ! how incredibely retarded must you be to beleive in such childish nonesense??
I like to insert carrots into my anus.
I see the multi-personality HeavenSent is about. LOL
Casey, your an abomination to Jesus Christ. You chose your life style, conditioning yourself to accept it. Own the fact that you are rebelling against Jesus Christ and stop making excuses that you are not.
Phony heavensent, you follow the Talmud that worships satan. Try to get over your carnal obsession of trashing my handle.
I know what you're all about too Judaism God was stolen ... Just another dummy handle to write on this blog.
Ouch, my anus hurts! I should probably stop inserting vegetables into it.
Fake Heaven Sent:
I realize that you are trying to discredit the real Heaven Sent, but she can do that quite well on her own. You are actually making some of us non-believers have sympathy for her plight here.
KNOCK IT OFF!!
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me and go balls deep: thou art an offense unto me: for you taste salty to God.
Taketh not thine johnson into thine own hand except for emptying thine bladder. If thou shaketh thine own johnson more than twice, thou art jerking it. Jerking thine johnson beith completely uncool with jesus.
"I realize that you are trying to discredit the real Heaven Sent, but she can do that quite well on her own. You are actually making some of us non-believers have sympathy for her plight here.
KNOCK IT OFF!!"
How about blow me?
How many phonys are there? D@ mn
I am quite certain that there are several people posting as HeavenSent.
Yesterday the real HeavenSent claimed to be leaving the message board to go to christian friendly board.
Today it's back.
Personally, I could care less who looks bad as long as it makes that mo ron HS completely inconsequential.
@Casey You are rationalizing. Everyone is born with the desire to do something that is a sin. Having gay s e x isn't any less a sin than lusting after your neighbor's wife, or car.
This one time, at band camp... I stuck a flute up my pussy!
And I less than three'd it a lot!
God be with you.
It seems that heavensent hits a nerve, BULLSEYE!
And also with you, Jim.
"How about blow me?"
How about if you grow up.
- She is the one of the absolutely EASIEST debaters to blast out of the water without resorting to dirty tactics.
And also with you, Jim."
Oh please we all know YeahRight isn't religious, your carnal way of lying and stealing handles will put you in hell's fire!
I don't debate, I declare the Truth and God's Word. There are some here who try to silence me. They cannto silence Matty.
"Yesterday the real HeavenSent claimed to be leaving the message board to go to christian friendly board.
Today it's back."
So? She didn't say that she was leaving forever.
"Personally, I could care less who looks bad as long as it makes that mo ron HS completely inconsequential."
Of course she's a moron, but stand up like a man and refute her. It's real easy to do.
@HS "There are some here who try to silence me."
It's true. Not because of any content or truth you believe you proclaim, but much like a crying baby on a plane, the rest of us wouldn't mind a few minutes of peace and quiet in between your childish rants and pointless babble.
HeavenSent revels in the thought of people who don't agree lock step being tortured forever. I keep trying to get her to seek professional help, but she just enjoys the thought of destruction, death, and generally just being the worst person she possibly can be.
Times like this I put on some diapers and jump up on my large cross that sits in my living room and ask Jesus WHY!
Why do these carrots taste so buttery?
Yes, she is everything you say, but you know, she's not the only one like that out there. Use her - it's SO easy - and many others might get enlightened along the way.
I tend to save transcripts and print outs of HeavenSents rants and condemnations. When people ask me what the harm of religion is, or why I get angry at christians, I just pull out that crap, and people just shut up.
"God's love doesn't mean that greedy and gay people could go to Church without repentance"
The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance, suspicion of those who are different, and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.
I could imagine that plenty of people have a disposition for gayness. That would fit together with Genesis, where can find an account of Adam's fall. We have inherited the nature of the fallen Adam. Yet when we get born into this world we are sinful.
It is hard for us to admit that se-xual greed is a sin, because it seems to be so natural for us, when we regard our body.
I claim, if Adam had not experienced the fall, no man had se-xual problems, but could life in absolutely purity and it would be natural for him.
We must believe Christ and his apostles that the blissful state is the state of abstinence, even if we feel the greed of our body. Yet our body is a relative of Adam. Through faith and baptism we can overcome Adam's descendant (our body).
"It is hard for us to admit that se-xual greed is a sin, because it seems to be so natural for us, when we regard our body."
Being gay is NOT about sexual greed. Duh! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
@Janet – You are living under the delusion that the ancient world is different than ours, Gay s e x was just a common as it is now. The Greeks encouraged young men to have gay s e x to save v i r g i n woman. A Roman emperor was gay, I forget which.
"Gay s e x was just a common as it is now. The Greeks encouraged young men to have gay s e x to save v i r g i n woman. A Roman emperor was gay, I forget which."
Yo moron it wasn't till recently that people truly understood the REAL truth about sexual orientation. Everything that was written about gays in the past were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes the writers of the bible. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Alexander the Great's father Phillips also had g a y s e x. Alexander may have had a g a y lover named Hephaestion. While, they may not have understood the cause of h o m o s e x u a l i t y, it was accepted in many circles.
"God loves the fat preacher. Ho-mose-xual activity and overeating are both sins"
The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.
Jesus defines marriage as a life long union between a man and a woman. Mark 10 1-12
Marriage has been going on long before your religion was created. In this land, long before it was america, native american tribes recognized and married same s e x couples.
Your religion is not what defines marriage.
The topic of the discussion is gay s e x within the context of Christianity. You are off topic.
"Jesus defines marriage as a life long union between a man and a woman."
Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.
You completely ignored the statement. J, the man who founded the religion, defined marriage as a life long union between a man and a woman.
He said that G defined marriage that way in the beginning. He even said that divorce was a s i n because G joined man and woman together, and man couldnt separate them.
Since you have a direct line to what God thinks, can you tell me what he thinks about global warming? Is it man-made or God-made?
"Ho-mose-xual activity and overeating are both sins"
The Scriptures were written approximately 2000 or more years ago when there was no knowledge of constitutional homosexuality. The Scripture writers believed that all people were naturally heterosexual so that they viewed homosexuality activity as unnatural. Women today are pointing out that the inferiority of women expressed in the scriptures was a product of culture and the times in which the Bible was written; it should not be followed today, now that we are beginning to appreciate the natural and God-given equality of men and women.
Similarly, as we know that homosexuality is just as natural and God-given as heterosexuality, we realize that the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality were conditioned by the attitudes and beliefs about this form of sexual expression which were held by people without benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge and understanding.
It is unfair of us to expect or impose a twentieth century mentality and understanding about equality of genders, races and sexual orientations on the Biblical writers. We must be able to distinguish the eternal truths the Bible is meant to convey from the cultural forms and attitudes expressed there.
You sound someone who is rationalizing their divorce.
"You sound someone who is rationalizing their divorce."
Well that just proved you have poor reading skills.
Finally someone who can speak for god....
God can't speak for himself?
No, he's a mute.
TT, still obsessed, I see as you post under my handle and write your trash.
You moron. I just now got home from a medical appointment. I left here at 11:45.
You are a paranoid nut-case. Get therapy, you bat-sh!t crazy wing-nut.
Where did I put my dil do? Oh, here it is, right in my anus where I left it.
Tommy Boy I know you and CNN are out to silence me. You are dead bones that will burn for eternity.
My original post on this thread was sarcastic in response to Rainer telling me what god thinks.
Apparently sarcasm is lost in prinit sometimes.
Keep right on, HS. Pretty soon the nice men will be along with your thorazine drip and that lovely jacket with the extra-long arms. You are unbelievably egotistical to think everyone here cares about your idiocy and wants to impersonate you. Why would they? You're butt-ugly and dumber than a turkey with a lobotomy.
Can I get in on that thorazine? It is friday after all....
"You're butt-ugly and dumber than a turkey with a lobotomy."
Okay that was funny. lol
"God loves gays and Jesus is for them. God loves the fat preacher. Ho-mose-xual activity and overeating are both sins – just like speeding, gossip, lying and cheating. I think I did all of those just today.", Mr. Gross said.
God's love doesn't mean that greedy and gay people could go to Church without repentance. Before they go to Church, they have to repent at any rate.
God loves a fat preacher only on the condition that his overweight is not caused by glutony, but by dispositon, disease, lack of exercise and other reasons, which have nothing to do with sin. A fresser-preacher has to be excluded from the Church, he is a sinner.
Do the ped.o.phile priests get in to heaven? They never repent and yet they attend church all the time.
The Roman Catholic Church has forsaken her groom Jesus Christ for 1400 years.
Of course, the priest, which touch children, will get into hell. If the RCC would be a Christian Church, she would exclude priests, which molest children.
I am a Lutheran. We allow our pastors to marry and thus they have less se-xual problems.
As much as I do not believe, I do agree by allowing the heads of the church to marry they'd potentially see less of the issues. As long as the Vatican protects those priests the molestation will continue within.
Overweight due to lack of exercise is okay? And here I thought that sloth was a sin....
Those priests that hurt children of God are the first ones to get judged by Jesus. It all starts at the pulpit and many of them are on the wide path to the eternal flames.
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me and go balls deep: thou art an offense unto me: for you taste salty to God.
Niceeeeeeeeeeeeeee and classy from skitzo
Wierd ppl on here today.
Yeah.,..counting me at least 3 phony HeavenSents. lol
Make that four