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July 7th, 2012
08:34 PM ET

Circumcision ritual under fire in New York due to risk of herpes infection

By Pauline Kim, CNN

New York (CNN)– A controversial Jewish circumcision ritual is under fire after allegedly causing the deaths of two infants and exposing potentially thousands more to the risk of herpes infections.

New York City health officials are pushing a proposed regulation that would require parents to sign a consent waiver before they take part in a circumcision ritual called "metzitzah b'peh," typically practiced by ultra-Orthodox Jews. The ritual potentially poses a fatal risk to newborns, according to the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene.

The legislation was proposed at a Board of Health meeting last month by Dr. Jay K. Varma, deputy commissioner for disease control for New York City's health department, after 11 infants contracted neonatal herpes between November 2000 and December 2011, after the circumcision ritual. Two of the infants died.

Jews regularly practice circumcision as part of their religion, but mostly ultra-Orthodox Jews practice metzitzah b'peh, during which the mohel, or person performing the procedure, orally sucks the blood from the infant's newly circumcised penis.

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The numbers reported came to light as the city's health department launched an investigation after the infant deaths were reported in New York, the most recent in September in Brooklyn.

The health department reported last month that an estimated 20,493 infants in New York City were exposed to direct oral suction. Baby boys who were reportedly circumcised "with confirmed or probable orogenital suction" between April 2006 and December 2011 had an estimated risk of contracting neonatal herpes (HSV-1) infection of 24.4 per 100,000 cases, making the risk 3.4 times greater than those infants who did not have direct oral suction, according to the health department findings.

In a statement advising New York parents to refrain from direct oral-genital suction during circumcision, New York City Health Commissioner Dr. Thomas Farley said, "There is no safe way to perform oral suction on any open wound in a newborn.

"Parents considering ritual circumcision need to know that circumcision should only be performed under sterile conditions, like any other procedures that create open cuts, whether by mohelim or medical professionals."

Reports of infant herpes infections and deaths are not new.

In November of 2004, the Department of Health reported that twin male infants contracted neonatal herpes after the ritual circumcision, one of whom died.

Spokesman Jerry Schmetter of the Brooklyn Defense Attorney's office said a criminal investigation regarding a rabbi who was linked to infant herpes cases, was "still ongoing."

In the case of the Brooklyn infant's death in September, the parents of the baby refused to tell authorities who performed the ritual.

The United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg in Brooklyn could not be reached for comment.

Jeffrey Mazlin, a certified mohel and physician in New York who regularly practices circumcision procedures, said "only the more orthodox, the more traditional mohels" perform the metzitzah b'peh.

"[Orthodox Jews] look at it in terms of religion being more important than the individual, whereas someone who is more liberal will make sure that the individual's rights are taken care of," he said.

But the ritual is not just an upholding of a Jewish tradition, but also a firm reminder of their beliefs.

"Because blood is the life-giving element, they believe that it's supposed to be part of the whole procedure," Mazlin said.

The little blood that is drawn from the newly circumcised penis is usually left alone or wiped away under regular procedures, he said.

"There are no known medical benefits to sucking [the blood]," he said.

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Rabbi Moshe Tendler, professor of Talmudic Law and Bioethics at Yeshiva University, dismissed any defense of the practice, calling it "primitive nonsense."

"[The ritual] has nothing to do with religion. It's only their customs. But they've managed to convince the city that it's a violation of their religious freedoms."

Tendler notes that there is an alternative to the metzitzah b'peh in which a mohel doesn't use his mouth directly, but uses a sterilized glass tube or pipette to suck the blood from the wound, which many modern orthodox Jews have started to incorporate during their circumcision rituals.

The Jewish tradition of circumcision rituals originate from Scripture, in which God tells Abraham that all men must be circumcised eight days after they are born.

"Hundreds of years ago, they didn't know that you can get an infection by sucking the blood. So they were not concerned," said professor Arthur Hyman of Yeshiva University.

Dr. Daniel S. Berman, an infectious disease specialist, has defended the practice, arguing in a paper published in the Jewish journal Dialogue that there is still no evidence that metzitzah b'peh directly caused any of the reported infant herpes infections.

Berman even attributes racial bias in the New York City government as the reason behind the proposed mandate for the parent consent waiver.

Berman's opinion does not appear to be representative of the larger medical community. He could not be reached for comment Friday by CNN.

The Jewish Community Relations Council of New York could not be reached for comment.

Last week, a court in Germany outlawed circumcision on infants with the exception of medical purposes.

The ruling came after the case of a Muslim couple whose 4-year-old son was hospitalized after a circumcision procedure.

The Department of Health is accepting public comments on the proposed regulation until a public hearing July 23. At the hearing, there will be a public forum where the board will consider all comments and make a final vote September 13.

- shirleyhenrycnn

Filed under: Judaism • New York

soundoff (643 Responses)
  1. And the winner of the covetted "Worst Job Of Defending Your Beliefs" lifetime achievement award goes to . . .

    TOPHER ! ! !

    Yes, in one single day, Topher managed to mangle all credibility with some of the worst attempts at logic ever!

    That was epic, Topher! Well done!

    July 8, 2012 at 7:29 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      I just logged on a few minutes ago but i think Topher has retreated to a board elsewhere.....
      However i did read some of the questions re slavery and the Bible with some interest. A very interesting topic!

      July 8, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      Apparently slavery has existed since almost the beginning, and still exists in the world today, in spite of laws prohibiting it.

      July 8, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • Unknown

      and yet atheists think its religion?

      Bullcrap..so pathetic.

      July 8, 2012 at 7:56 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      no your religion just perpetuates it,.. and they(Abrahamics) did it on a scale that was unimaginable then any other

      July 8, 2012 at 8:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Unknown, read the Gopher's posts and weep.

      July 8, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      Sam Yaza, are you sure that the 'Abrahamics' did it on a greater scale than the other cultures of the time?
      My understanding of the neighboring tribes of the time is that they were just as 'primitive' as the Abrahamics....

      July 8, 2012 at 8:06 pm |
    • Unknown

      I was responding to b4bigbang troll Tom Tom.

      July 8, 2012 at 8:31 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      topher = giant FAIL

      i argued with him for a while. topher goes through logical fallacies at close to light speed. he ignores reason, ignores facts and ignores any point put to him that he can't refute. he's a christian apologists that us good only at making excuses for the atrocities and warped views of his own religion.

      July 8, 2012 at 8:39 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      yes positive,..there was more people to grab when they did theirs the enslavement of the African Pagans was the greatest slave trafficking ever you now its the one were you Christians teamed up with the Moors & Nubians (muslims) to trade and round up the south and west Africans (multi-denominational-pagans) then there was the genocide and slavery of the Celts (druids) and of course the holocaust had its work camps Christians enslaving/killing Jews. how many people are in jail in America,.. slavery is legal in jail and all Christian politicians support it as well as clergy advocates it and most people in jail are in there because of non violent crimes and prohibition,.. the christian morality laws,..

      July 8, 2012 at 8:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      @Unknown: This isn't your private chat, dumbfvck.

      July 8, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      @s yaza: Ohhh, ok, i see now. You're presenting a very compressed one-post history of civilization going back a couple thousand years, but focusing also on the Euro and American slave trade, as well as modern western countries incarcerating people under the drug laws.

      Wow. A very broad brush you paint with.

      I agree with you about a lot of the knuckle-headed things people have done trying to justify it in the name of their religion.
      But when it comes down to it, it's the people that do the deeds. For example, when the US govt decided to experiment on mentally retarded orphans a few years back (obviously chose them because they were the most defenseless), and religion had nothing to do with it, i imagine whoever might've been caught up in that debacle could easily condemn politics in general, and the US govt in particular.

      I could go on and on, eg, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, etc. So the Germans were a bunch of Christians locking up Jews? Simply because of religion? Lutheranism was anti-semitic true, and that's bad, but how does one explain a Christian risking his/her life to save Jews from the Nazis because they thought God expected them to (ie their religion?).

      It helps to see orgs as composed of individuals in your analysis.

      July 8, 2012 at 9:09 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      i haven't the time nor do you the money for me to teach an entire class to you about anerchritism and the "Christ mind" phenomenon of chosen people mentality.

      but what i can tell you is the African slave trade was conducted and supported by Christianity and that is the largest slave movement by-far trumping all others combined
      way to take the cake

      now on to an introductory Anarchristism course
      http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html

      we pagans are inhuman no different to the cows that's the christian and Jewish views of us and the justification of 3500 year of bigotry and 1700 years of persecution enslavement and genocide look no further then Tasmania the Christians used this mentality to justify that,.. that the "mission" folks
      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7eubc-Yk3M&w=640&h=360]

      the Hebrew called us Lilim or Lilin, the gentiles were semits that didnt convert the Canaanites, Hitti.te and Palestinians,.. the rest of the world were Lilim and god kill 1000 of us each day,... another word find one kill one, we are a bunch of baby eating, s3x addicts,... don't worry brothers thers good news one were closer to God beining fathered by one of his angels sure is samial the deceiver, but its something to note two we never ate the fruit thus we cant sin yup no hell for us we don't have the cures of sin were perfect

      so who want to be in this family yup come get born again walk through the flame and welcome aboard
      think about it free from sin and free from God yup a slave only to self you are your own master

      July 8, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      @Sam Yaza: So what's your take on pagan religions that abuse people, eg, cut out their heart and throw it down the steps of the pyramid? And many other pagan acts that aren't politically correct? Head-hunting, cannabalism, ritual torture, etc, etc.

      July 8, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Bang, the entire basis of christianity is human sacrifice. The symbol of your faith is a reproduction of a device that was used to torture your "messiah" to death. How often do christians claim that "Christ died for our sins?". Those churches that offer communion are practicing ritual cannibalism.

      On the practical side of the coin, let's not forget how many were tortured and killed by christians during the inquisition and the witch trials alone. The majority of the North American Pequot tribe was butchered, burned alive or sold as slaves by puritans.

      The fact is, your faith really isn't that far removed from the pagans you scorn.

      July 8, 2012 at 11:22 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      tallulah13: "Bang, the entire basis of christianity is human sacrifice.

      [One willing sacrifice, once for all, never to be repeated vs the pagan alternative – very little diff???]

      The symbol of your faith is a reproduction of a device that was used to torture your "messiah" to death. How often do christians claim that "Christ died for our sins?". [The willing sacrificial love of God for the whole human race vs unending pagan real-death rituals – little diff???]

      Those churches that offer communion are practicing ritual cannibalism. [So what? Last time i took communion it was good old bread & wine – tasted good too – so what? (Not into Catholic supersti tion, so sorry, it's just bread & wine btw).]

      On the practical side of the coin, let's not forget how many were tortured and killed by christians during the inquisition and the witch trials alone.
      [Christians and others being tortured and slaughtered by Roman Papists, yes, they killed many of my Christian ancestors.]

      The majority of the North American Pequot tribe was butchered, burned alive or sold as slaves by puritans.

      [There were also Christian denominations who had perpetual peace with, and even intermarried with the Native Americans.]

      The fact is, your faith really isn't that far removed from the pagans you scorn."
      [ I think i've shown major diffs – besides, this statement will not engender any respect from Sam Yaza if you accuse his Pagans of not being much diff than 'Abrahamics' – not that you care, as i realize that you're anti-religion and he's a Pagan].

      July 8, 2012 at 11:45 pm |
    • tallulah13

      1. Who cares if he was willing, bang? Human sacrifice is human sacrifice. Not every pagan sacrifice was unwilling, either. Who cares if it was only once? Was not the price of your "salvation" the life of a human? The very basis of your religion is human sacrifice.

      2. Christ wasn't the only one who died on the cross. Thousands, if not tens of thousands were crucified. Christians revere a device of torture.

      3. I've never denied the suffering of christians. I only deny that they are innocent of wrongdoing. I suspect that their efforts to "convert" others have cost more lives than any pagan religion.

      4. Communion is the symbolic eating of flesh and blood. Face it. Your religion isn't very different than paganism.

      July 9, 2012 at 12:37 am |
    • Sam Yaza

      the Aztec and Mayan human sacrifice is what your talking about,.. they did that to there kings and queens,.. its kinda like your term is over now here is your resignation,.. on the bright side you will go to the futility of the next cycle so the world can continue to provide,. you see sacrifices nee to be pure and treated with the highest regard or there just not worthy to be presented to the Gods.. the same applies to the Abrahamics in there sacrifice,.. the only difference is the Aztecs and Mayans believed that humans were closer to the divine then animals,.. just as Christians believe the son of god (a demi-God) was more sacred then humans.

      now on to cannibalism
      for most it is extreme survival like the Christians and Romans forcing the druids to eat each-other to live,.. and for other smaller tribes in Africa its about taking the power of your enemy and not letting good food to wast because food is scarce (once again survival)
      on that note Cannibalism is the greats expression of love

      July 9, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      now to end on a good note Head hunting and torture is just good clean fun and the Cristian Escariats (Templars and witch hunters) and Gregory (whipping boys)

      and pagan is a broad word it covers basically all religions except Christianity, Judaism, were polytheistic (venerating the Gods/Goddess and/or animistic (venerating the spirits) and/or anthropomorphic (venerating the animal) and/or Eco-centered (venerating the natural) and/or ancestral (venerating your ancestors
      its about tolerance and understanding, unconditional love through acceptance of others

      well oppose to writing my own,.. we have a united website so here is what we all have agreed on
      Honoring, revering, or worshipping a Deity or Deities found in pre-Christian, classical, aboriginal, or tribal mythology; and/or
      Practicing religion or spirituality based upon shamanism, shamanic, or magickal practices; and/or
      Creating new religion based on past Pagan religions and/or futuristic views of society, community, and/or ecology;
      Focusing religious or spiritual attention primarily on the Divine Feminine; and/or
      Practicing religion that focuses on earth based spirituality.
      "you might be a pagan"

      oh and if you say your a pagan your a pagan

      July 9, 2012 at 5:46 pm |
  2. UK Dave & my fellow scientists

    Scroungers prevent recovery.
    Time we weaned ourselves off scroungers.
    Rosy Regards,

    July 8, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
    • The Corrector

      The astounding truth at last!
      Scroungers prevent recovery!
      Dump the scroungers!
      Lord! Dump the scroungers! Amen! 🙂

      July 8, 2012 at 7:27 pm |
    • UK Dave, High Priest Of Wan.kerism

      You haven't replied to yourself enough yet. You usually do at least three.

      July 8, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
  3. Bootyfunk

    take the next step:
    realize circ.umcision is a primitive religious ritual. think about it. part of a male human baby's p.enis is cut off. the urban legend that uncirc.umcised men are dirtier is just that - an urban legend. no research shows uncirc.umcised men are prone to disease.

    so why do we do it? judeo-christian religious ritual. that's it.

    we condemn the middle east and africa for female genital mutilation, but don't blink an eye when cutting off part of our male children for primitive religious rites. disgusting. we need to stop this barbaric practice, on both male and female babies.

    July 8, 2012 at 6:42 pm |
  4. abraham0delacey0giuseppe0casey0thomas0o0malley

    and yet the Jews get made when you pass a baby through flames (Moloch) but sucking blood through a babies penis is an OK ritual,.. fire baptism not,.. you know i had a fire baptism, douse with water then go through then i got my D!ck sucked,.. but that had nothing to do with the ritual.. my point is. were was I,.. oh yes a ritual is pointless unless the recipient knows what is for subjecting a infant to a ritual takes his choice out of the matter so it has no true spiritual significance,.. but this ritual also imply force mutilation,.. its in human and a crime. let them decide as adults before you ruin there life,... and for you Jews who want to be pagans again there hope you can get your body back to nature if you desire ask your Doc,.. im taking into account you see your doctor on regular basses because your a Jew

    July 8, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      sorry that was me my gravatron acted up when using different email

      July 8, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      We thought you were just very Irish.

      July 8, 2012 at 6:51 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      nope just wish i was a cat and yes i use the name a lot but it was just a f4ck up

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meDCm2CGlbg&w=640&h=360]

      July 8, 2012 at 7:11 pm |
  5. Dionysus, Dion for short

    So, I just got this message, we don't have to tweet, we have this god thing going, whatever. Anyway, this guy I know in the christian heaven tells me he saw this jesus guy in the showers and he was whole, pe*nis wise. You have to wonder if joeseph and mary were good jewish parents and just defied the religious tennants of the time and hid HIS pr*ick in swaddling clothes to confound the rabbis. Of course in heaven, of any sort, you could revert to your original form. I know for a fact that despite MY peccadilloes I have an unlimited supply of livers and veneral diease of any kind does not exist.

    July 8, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      You should always keep your pe.ckers and di.ldos in swaddling clothes.

      July 8, 2012 at 6:53 pm |
  6. Lol just lol at religions

    judaism: hey guys we have to chop the tips off babies' dicks and suck the blood, or the ghost will be mad at us!

    christianity: those jews are bad! they don't drink the blood of a ghost like we do! the ghost will be mad at them!

    f'ing imbeciles.........................................

    July 8, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
  7. Snap Drizzle

    Why are rabbis so fat?
    Because they eat all the foreskins.

    July 8, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
  8. Dionysus, Dion for short

    Popularity doesn.t make som thing true. Possibly that is why the members of whats his name cult spilt into so many different sub sets. The guys that had the monopoly got so greedy that others got pis*sed off and decided to grab their share of the prize. So you jesus cult is probably the biggest cash flow businees in the world from the vicar of christ on earth to the snake oil salesman in the tent. I grieve the fact that there is not a Dion franchise of bars and casinos in my name (Ceasers Palace is cool ) but I am the one true god of good times. HALLELUJAH!

    July 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      yah be happy all i got in my name is a horrible birth control pill,... then again if you count everything in my other names i have quite a few awesome stuff like devils food cake

      ps how is your mother she missed our our date you know its kinda boring going fishing with out some sea goddess or god with you,. if shes going to be all foamy and flotsam-y ill jest kick it with poseidon instead there better be some good excuse like Hera was being a d!ck again,...shes the wost step mom ever

      July 8, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
  9. Chuckles

    Everybody

    I know you want to talk more about christianity and it's merits (or lack thereof) but can we please focus on the issue here in this article? Jewish children are getting Herpes!

    Discuss

    July 8, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      The parents who refuse to name the mohel who performed the ceremony should be prosecuted. They are endangering the lives and health of others by failing to do so.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Tom Tom

      I agree, When I get my second circ/umcision, I want to know who to avoid.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:59 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      It's a non-issue. Child abusers should be executed.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What, Chuckles, did it grow back? 😉

      July 8, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • U got it!

      chances are every four out of 5 adult posters here from the continental US has herpes.

      I am the 5th

      July 8, 2012 at 4:06 pm |
    • JG

      Their kids should be taken away and they should go to jail. It is disgusting.

      If they weren't Jews they would be prosecuted......what is wrong with that picture?

      July 8, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • jwt

      One of my kids was born without foreskin.

      This practice is barbaric and needs to be crushed like a coc kroach.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
  10. JG

    Why did you pull the story CNN?

    July 8, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
  11. Rainer Braendlein

    Ezekiel 36:

    1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: 2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession: 3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people: 4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about; 5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey. 6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: 7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. 8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: 11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men . 13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations; 14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD. 15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD. 16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name' sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them . 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this , saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it , and I will do it . 37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

    July 8, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      gibberish from a loon.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • Yaakov

      Rainer,
      This is all you need to know about Christianity:

      Jeremiah 16:19 – O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the Gentiles will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods (i.e. Jesus), worthless idols that did them no good.

      Zechariah 8:23 – This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten Gentile men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew (doesn't say Christian) by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

      It does not say the Jews have inherited lies, but the Gentile nations that have inherited the lies of false dying godmen. This is why Zechariah says you will run to the hem of a Jew and ask to learn about God. Why wait until then, we are willing to teach you now.

      300times0.com

      July 8, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • jwt

      There are no gods, it's all gibbersish with the extremely rare useful bit tossed it.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      here's all you need to know about the brutal and disgusting christian god:
      * [psalm 137:9] Blessed the one who seizes your children and smashes them against the rock: the children represent the future generations, and so must be destroyed if the enemy is truly to be eradicated.

      the christian god is a baby killer.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

      Aint't that the Christian baptism mentioned in the Old Testament long before Pentecost, when the Christian Church emerged by the coming of the Spirit. Like the gentiles the Jews need to get baptized, which is the circu-msti-tion of the heart.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      Rainer,
      Why not just cut to the chase :how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Better still, how many pinheads can dance on CNN?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Yaakov, Matthew 23:13-36 is for you folks that abide in the Talmud.

      July 8, 2012 at 10:52 pm |
  12. John Stefanyszyn

    Even the orthodox Jews call out to the "god" of freedom of all religions, the "god" of freedom of self rights, to protect their "religion"!

    Blind hypocrites, as with all religious that love the way of freedom of rights, of equality of self-rights, before and above Jesus Christ, the One True Way and Son of the One Creator.

    Many will come saying "Christ , Christ", but the One True Way, the Son of the One God, will say "I do not know you, workers of the lawless way... of the way of self-interest... of self-rights"

    July 8, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
  13. john the guy not the baptist

    Topher

    About the gospels BaSis for the christian delusion.
    The OT a group of stories about the early history of the jews written by man in the authors perspective, of little consequence, other than an intresting myth. The NT, on the other hand is supposed to be the eye witness testimony of the life of the predicted messiah, by the apostles to the jehovah figure. It wasn't untill the cult got some legs and started to gain enough support that the leaders could see they could make a buck, that the idea of the GOSPELS came about. So they dusted off the old manuscripts and took the writings that made the cult look good and discarded or destroyed any that were derogatory, Even the gospels, according to whomever, are full of inconsistencies, they can't seem to make the details make a lot of sense. So they had created a cult, got some political backing and did swell. The sheep flocked to the temples as it gave them false hope that there was something better than their cruel lives and the priests wre happy to see them sheared and it still goes on today. Pray thay it stops right soon, but prayer never works.

    July 8, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      I like his original name. John the Dipper.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:02 pm |
  14. ME II

    This is about the most asinine ritual I've ever heard of, at least in modern times. What are they thinking?

    July 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
  15. Rainer Braendlein

    Jews don't need a modified member, but a modified heart

    Primary note: I am a Protestant and love God's Chosen People, the Jews. Yet, it is high time that they at last realize that someone cannot become righteous by keeping the law of the Torah or the distorted Jewish law of the Torah by natural strength, being circu-mcized, or being a desecendant of Abraham. The great blessing of the Jews is that they have the Old Testament and certain holy festivals given to them by God. They only lack a correct understanding of their own religion. May God himself open their eyes soon.

    The issue of circu-msti-tion isn't actually the small injury of the Jewish penis, but that the Jews still understand wrongly the meaning of the ritual and the modified penis.

    Actually, the circu-mcised penis shall remember the Jews of Abraham's faith, which he had, before he got circu-mcised. Abraham became righteous, because he believed God that he shall get a son (Isaac), despite the high age of himself and his wife Sarah. They both were doters.

    After God had given the promise to Abraham and Sarah, they had to wait a pretty long time until the promise was fulfilled by God, and that was an extraordinary expression of faith. This faith should still be a model for Jews and Christians.

    I assume the today Jews no longer understand the meaning of circu-msti-tion according to the Bible, but have desecrated it.

    How did they desecrate it?

    They assume being circu-mcised would dispense them from being righteous in daily life beside their descent from Abraham, and keeping a distorted law, which has nothing to do with the law of the Torah.

    What is the meaning of the law of the Torah?

    By the law God shows someone that he is not in a blissful state or state of health. Someone, who is in a state of health, actually needs no law, because he behaves correctly in God's life-bringing presence (a state of health means to be in God's presence).

    God is the source of life or The Life himself. Everybody, who is in God automatically lives a life, which is not in conflict with the law of the Torah.

    How can someone get into God's presence and enjoy abundant life?

    By faith. Someone must believe that God wants to give him a new life for free, that means that a person of the Godhead comes to him. If someone is controlled by the Holy Spirit, he lives a life, which pleases God and is not in conflict with the law. This was yet valid in Old Testament times. The Old Testament gospel was God's promise to give Abraham a son. By this promise Abraham got convinced of God's love and returned into his presence, which Adam had left.

    July 8, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
    • hey

      shut up, you f'ing moron

      July 8, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      Rainer..sorry you need to think a little deeper...Harry Potter has a majic wand that really really does work better than jesus...i saw it for real in movie...not just some book.

      July 8, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Jesus gave you 7 Woes evolvedNOT Matthew 23:13-36. Jesus takes care of all His enemies.

      July 8, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      heavensent..god could no more take care of his enemies than appear on earth to do his own bidding...God appears to rely the gullible in all religions to either kill , blow things up.. shoot women, keep women in servitude. god is an appalling creation of the human mind.. You will no doubt continue to use threats as weapon to try to get us to believe,,,which is all they ever were or will be. You have no idea of the truth you espouse.. never have you written it out..

      July 9, 2012 at 1:21 am |
  16. Bootyfunk

    Topher wrote:
    Bootyfunk
    "So you think you can take verses out of context and because you don't like them, that makes them untrue? It doesn't work that way."

    this is always the laziest and worst excuse. i don't like what you say, so i claim you just don't understand. only christians can understand. wrong wrong wrong.

    the bible supports slavery, gives rules for selling your slaves, even specific rules for selling your daughter into slavery. there are rules for how to beat your slaves. but i suppose that's just out of context?

    the bible supports slavery in numerous passages - never says a bad thing against it. jesus himself tells slaves to obey their masters if they want any chance to get into heaven.

    let's hear your weak excuses for the bible supporting arguably the most evil inst.itution ever inflicted on man by other men.

    July 8, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bootyfunk, I know you are delusional to think that Christians care to debate with you. We're not here to debate with haters of Jesus' truth. We're here to ensure His truth is heard.

      You were already given 7 woes in Matthew 23. When Jesus returns, He takes care of all His enemies.

      July 8, 2012 at 11:02 pm |
  17. Topher

    If anyone has any honest questions about Christianity, please feel free to ask ...

    July 8, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • CJ

      I don't. I already realize that it is a religion that believes in human sacrifice, deicide and symbolic cannibalism.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • Topher

      Interesting. Where do you get that from?

      July 8, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      Topher wants to debate Babble verses, as they all do. It's all they know HOW to do. It's an attempt to get us "down the rabbit hole". This isn't Babble Study.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
    • Topher

      Of course I want to talk about the Bible. It is the truth. CJ said he knows the Bible teaches human sacrifice and cannibalism. I think that is worth discussing. I'm sorry you think those things are below you.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      So you say the Bible *is* the truth. The question is how do you know that ? If the Bible IS the truth, then you have a false god, as you also say the "word" is the second person of the Trinity. How long have you been a Gnostic ?

      July 8, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • Topher

      llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      The question is how do you know that ?"

      There's lots of different ways. To begin with, you just know. I think it's within us all to know of God's existance. Secondly, you can test the Bible for accuracy.

      "If the Bible IS the truth, then you have a false god, as you also say the "word" is the second person of the Trinity. How long have you been a Gnostic ?"

      That's a reference to Christ and you know it. Don't try to play semantics and twist things around.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • Dionysus, Dion for short

      Listen, Topher, I had it all, son of god and mortal woman, domination over the underworld, monotheism-didn't catch on in my time, death and resurection, but I got into the wine in a big way and debauchery, Bachus grabbed me by the ba*lls and my heart and mind followed. Dad warned me about this but I didn't listen or else all the temples and churches would be worshiping me instead of your guy. Still their are a great number of statues out their of me and my guys without any snips, and a good looking bunch of guys we are; I am also a little vane.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
    • Topher

      Dionysus, Dion for short

      That's funny. Very creative. But how does any of that make Jesus Christ untrue?

      July 8, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Larry Bob

      Why ask honest questions when you refuse to give honest answers?

      July 8, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • Topher

      What have I said that was dishonest?

      July 8, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • Topher

      Jews circumcize the penis. Christians circumcize the brain.

      Any other questions?

      July 8, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      the bible is anything but the "truth". there are literally hundreds of contradictions. the bible supports slavery. the bible tells followers to murder non-virgin women, disobedient children, g.ays and anyone working the weekend. the god of the bible, supposedly representing love and compassion, murders children throughout the book.

      how can you claim the bible is anything but a work of fiction written by ignorant bronze/iron age men that knew nothing of the world outside their own tiny zip code? come on, you know it's myth. you don't believe in 1000s of other gods, but yahweh is real? lol.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • Topher

      I love how you atheists have nothing so you have to resort to childish games of name calling and stealing ident.ities.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      Sorry Topher. That's pathetic. "You just know" is "the universe is intuitive". We know from Relativity, Dirac Spinors, and Heisenberg, that the universe is not intuitive. If that's the best you can do, you need an education. Who put you up to this ? How did you decide you are qualified for this task ? "Twisting words" is "inability" to discuss. Oh well. Another one shot to hell. Can't they send even one who is up to the task >

      July 8, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "I love how you atheists have nothing so you have to resort to childish games of name calling and stealing ident.ities."
      don't be so quick to judge atheists. my handle gets stolen all the time by christians here on this blog. and yeah, they name call, too. so you judging all atheists on the actions of a few doesn't exactly make you look good.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • Topher

      Bootyfunk

      So you think you can take verses out of context and because you don't like them, that makes them untrue? It doesn't work that way.

      "you don't believe in 1000s of other gods, but yahweh is real? lol."

      If God is real, the 1000s of others can't be.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      The clue was "honest questions". That means, "do it on my terms, or else".

      July 8, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • Larry Bob

      When you previously tried to answer the questions below. I will give you the chance to answer them again, then I will point out all the dishonest fallacies you use.

      How can you know that any god exists? You cannot use any scripture, because that is circular reasoning (dishonest).

      How do you know that your particular God and scripture are correct when there are many many other gods and scriptures of equal validity?. Again, you immediately fail if you use your own scripture.

      Everything you say will be some form of dishonest argumentation.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • Topher

      llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      My only term is to act like an adult. You can ask me about something in the Bible or why we believe a certain passage or something. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is some of you want to make up things and call names. Childish.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "So you think you can take verses out of context and because you don't like them, that makes them untrue? It doesn't work that way."
      which verses did i take out of context? any time a christian hears a criticism of the bible, their first fail defense is to claim it's taken out of context. don't make excuses.

      "If God is real, the 1000s of others can't be."
      why not? other gods are mentioned in the bible. this isn't highlander. there can be only one! lol.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • Topher

      Larry Bob

      "How can you know that any god exists? You cannot use any scripture, because that is circular reasoning (dishonest)."

      I know the atheist handbook says you can't let us use the Bible to give answers, but that's ridiculous. If I wanted to prove Obama lived in the White House, all I have to do is look into a window of the White House. You might not like it, but that's how you prove things. But how do I know God exists? Because I just know it, for instance. Second, Creation proves there must be a Creator. First and Second Law of Thermodynamics points to a beginning, which means there must be a Beginner. You can't have nothing create everything. The everything must come from somewhere.

      "How do you know that your particular God and scripture are correct when there are many many other gods and scriptures of equal validity?. Again, you immediately fail if you use your own scripture."

      You want me to prove my scripture without referencing it or without quoting from it? I'm not sure which you mean. We use the Scripture to tell us about God. Since I established in the above answer there must be a god, we can compare our scriptures not only with other scriptures but with truth and logic. The Bible proves out.

      "Everything you say will be some form of dishonest argumentation."

      This just shows your presupposition to not listening to any of my answers and no matter what I would have said you would argue with it. I thought you atheists were all about logic and reasoning. This is neither of those things.

      Now explain to me why you don't believe in God and you can't quote any of the typical atheist speal. Go.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
    • Topher

      Bootyfunk

      "If God is real, the 1000s of others can't be."
      why not? other gods are mentioned in the bible. this isn't highlander. there can be only one! lol."

      Because that's what the Bible says. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." If this is true, Allah and Buddah and all the rest can't be true. He is making the claim to the the only way and the only truth. Yes, the Bible mentions other "gods" some people groups worshipped, but that doesn't mean those gods existed.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • ME II

      Why didn't Jesus say anything against slavery?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • Topher

      ME II

      "Why didn't Jesus say anything against slavery?"

      What does He say in favor of it?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, there is no evidence of any god. It's as simple as that. Your creation theory has a huge hole in it: If something can't come from nothing, where did your creator come from? Perhaps the continuous expansion and collapse of the universe are the eternal factor, not your god.

      The only reason to believe that a supernatural ent.ity is controlling the universe is your own intellectual laziness, your willingness to attribute what you don't understand to the workings of a "god". That is what humanity has always done, but there are fewer excuses to do so now, because humanity is becoming more and more capable of understanding the workings of natural processes.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "I know the atheist handbook says you can't let us use the Bible to give answers, but that's ridiculous. "
      your way of proving the bible is real is by referencing... the bible? bad, bad reasoning skills.

      "But how do I know God exists? Because I just know it, for instance."
      lol. are you serious? that's your proof. "because i just know!" you need to take a critical thinking course.

      "First and Second Law of Thermodynamics points to a beginning, which means there must be a Beginner. You can't have nothing create everything. The everything must come from somewhere."
      uh oh, kind of screwed yourself. if everything must come from somewhere... where does god come from? who created god? you seem to skip over logic when it's convenient for you.

      "You want me to prove my scripture without referencing it or without quoting from it? I'm not sure which you mean"
      you know exactly what we mean. you're being very very dishonest. he is asking for other ways to prove what the bible says is true besides the bible. show historical doc.uments that back up the bible. try to be a little more honest in your evaluation.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      You talk about being presumptuous? Give me a break! First off, you have the burden of proof for your god, secondly, just because some book says something doesn't make it true. Your world view is a supernatural presupposition thusly eliminating any logic and reason. You do not have a leg to stand on.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • Topher

      tallulah13

      "Your creation theory has a huge hole in it: If something can't come from nothing, where did your creator come from?"

      God is eternally existant outside of space and time. He had no beginning. However, science says we and the universe had a beginning. If that's so, where did everything come from? Some say everything was compressed down into an infinitely small mass, but you'd still have to explain where it came from. Is that your stance? That there was nothing and then there was something?

      "Perhaps the continuous expansion and collapse of the universe are the eternal factor, not your god."

      We've never observed a collapse of the universe so that is only speculation with no evidence and is taking more faith on your part than I do with God.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • Dionysus, Dion for short

      Topher
      Just saying the myth of me is just as plausible as the myth of your guy. Actually when I look around the world today there are a lot more people that party down and live in my image, than live like the uptight prude, whats his name jesus. Lets face it, your book doesn't even report that the guy ever got la*id, follow his example and don't be fruitful and multiply, there wouldn't be a whole lot of his cult around.
      .

      July 8, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      well, topher, then i'm sure this answer will satisfy you. before the big bang, there was not time. so nothing existed before the big bang.

      just as good as "god is eternal". so is the universe. see how easy that was?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:27 pm |
    • Topher

      "uh oh, kind of screwed yourself. if everything must come from somewhere... where does god come from? who created god? you seem to skip over logic when it's convenient for you."

      Not at all. I already answered this, but I'll repeat it. God wasn't created and has always existed outside of space and time. Science even contends space and time had a beginning. Thus you need something outside of space and time to start these things. That would be God. Nothing illogical about it.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • Topher

      Dionysus, Dion for short

      "Just saying the myth of me is just as plausible as the myth of your guy. Actually when I look around the world today there are a lot more people that party down and live in my image, than live like the uptight prude, whats his name jesus."

      Popularity doen't make something true. If the whole world said it is ok to torture babies for fun it would still be wrong.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      @Topher
      "Not at all. I already answered this, but I'll repeat it. God wasn't created and has always existed outside of space and time."

      And you can prove this right? How?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • Topher

      Bootyfunk

      "well, topher, then i'm sure this answer will satisfy you. before the big bang, there was not time. so nothing existed before the big bang."

      Right. Nothing existed. But now there's something. Where did it all come from?

      "just as good as "god is eternal". so is the universe. see how easy that was?"

      But science says there was a beginning. So the "eternal universe" theory doesn't fly.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      funny, at first you said "EVERYTHING", now you mean "EVERYTHING but god". changed your answer once we pointed out the flaw. who created god? he's eternal. use the same answer for the universe.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      wrong.

      science says time and space didn't exist until the big bang.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • JG

      Okay, why do biblical stories mirror ancient Summarian texts? Why was December 25th "chosen" as Christ's birthday? Why was what was considered God's word voted on? Shall I go on?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • Topher

      Voice of Reason

      "And you can prove this right? How?"

      Do you agree with science that the universe as well as time had a beginning?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
    • Topher

      Bootyfunk

      "wrong. science says time and space didn't exist until the big bang."

      Isn't that what I said?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      @Topher

      Answering a question with a question is not a suitable reply to the question. Come on!

      July 8, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "Do you agree with science that the universe as well as time had a beginning?"
      wrong. science says there was no time or space before the big bang.

      since you keep repeating this ignorance like a religious parrot, here's an article for you explaining what i'm saying:

      http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=no-evidence-of-time-before-big

      July 8, 2012 at 3:40 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      Ok Topher.
      Explain how your god acts, ie "begins" an action "before" she creates the dimension of time. Then explain how that makes sense.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • jwt

      having no gods makes more sense. In fact we have no need for gods, especially now that we understand more natural events that had no explanation long ago.

      Besides – who could pick just one god, more that than one makes more sense. Think of the candle sales.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      except you refuse to apply the same logic to god.

      if god always existed, so can the universe have always existed.

      if the universe requires a creator, so does god require a creator.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It was a yes or no question, Topher. Answer it. Nobody needs to agree with your premise on anything for you to be able to answer yes of no.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      "God exists outside of spacetime", then saying all things require a cause, (except god), is Special Pleading.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • Topher

      JG

      "Okay, why do biblical stories mirror ancient Summarian texts?"

      To be honest I've never read any "ancient Summarian texts" and I doubt you have, either. But even if those texts mirror the Bible that doesn't render the Bible untrue. Even the Native Americans have a flood story. So what. If anything that just lends more evidence there really was a global flood.

      "Why was December 25th "chosen" as Christ's birthday?"

      I have no idea WHY that date was chosen other than there was already a "holiday" on that day. We think His birthday was closer to summer, but we don't know the exact date. The Bible doesn't tell us. And it doesn't really matter.

      "Why was what was considered God's word voted on?"

      Saying it was voted on is kind of misleading. You make it sound like they voted on which books would be held as scripture when what they were doing was putting a series of test questions to each to see if it "checked out" to be inspired. Each book had to pass a test. If any failed, they were thrown out.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      Topher
      you've proven only that you have no regard for logic and reasoning. you're argument has been shown to have numerous holes in it by several posters (read above). all you have for an explanation at the end of the day is "magic", for which you have zero evidence.

      you claim there is a god? prove it.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • Topher

      jwt

      "having no gods makes more sense." ... "more that than one makes more sense."

      So which is it?

      "In fact we have no need for gods, especially now that we understand more natural events that had no explanation long ago."

      You need God because you need a savior. You've sinned and need forgiveness.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Can you or can you not prove there's a god, Topher Gopher? You've evaded and evaded. It's a simple question. It requires only a one-word answer.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "To be honest I've never read any "ancient Summarian texts" and I doubt you have, either. But even if those texts mirror the Bible that doesn't render the Bible untrue. Even the Native Americans have a flood story. So what. If anything that just lends more evidence there really was a global flood."
      - you choose to ignore evidence you don't like. logical fallacy. look the stories up. because you're purposely ignorant about the stories the bible plagiarized doesn't mean everyone else is.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • jwt

      No gods is the best. Although if you just have to believe then more gods.

      And no I am not a sinner that needs saving. That is an absulute fact you can bank on.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • JG

      Hah! A vote is not actually a vote.....you should go into politics.

      Maybe you should actually study where your "religion" actually came from......You would be surprised.

      Last question....Is God's love unconditional?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      Topher,
      You really need to read those Sumerian myths. It's where the Judean priests got them. Many of us HAVE read them. If you were conversant with them, your bible would look a whole lot less "unique". The Judean priests wrote Genesis during and after the Exile to create a national storey, for political purposes. Where did they get the stories ? Babylon. Yahweh, and the whole ball of wax.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • Topher

      Bootyfunk

      "if god always existed, so can the universe have always existed."

      This thus goes against what science says about space and time. Are you disagreeing with science?

      "if the universe requires a creator, so does god require a creator."

      For time and space to have a beginning, you have to have something outside of time and space to begin them. If there is no time, it can't create itself. Same with space. Something outside of them have to start them. You can't get something from nothing.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, the continual expansion and collapse of the universe is within the realm of reality and has been put forth as a a theory by cosmologists.

      On the other hand, you have no proof for your god, so you claim he exists "outside of space and time". There is no proof of that, and not a single reason to believe it.. Frankly, your just making stuff up to rationalize your personal belief.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Even if your theory were anything more than a theory, there's no proof a supernatural being was the cause.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • Larry Bob

      Why can't you use your scripture? Because it does not pass muster as evidence for the following reasons:

      1. There are many religions with many scriptures. All can make the identical claim that their scripture proves them true, and yours false.

      2. The claims of magic and prophecy and other supernatural elements cannot be supported by any other independant source. Only archaeological elements can be suported, but that would be like saying that since Troy is referred to in the Iliad and Odyssey, and the remains of Troy have been found, then Athena, Zeus, and Poseidon actually exist. Similarly, the fulfillment of prophecies made by the Oracle of Delphi prove Apollo exists.

      3. Your scripture has numerous contradictions that cast its credibility in severe doubt.

      Now, to your fallacies:

      "If I wanted to prove Obama lived in the White House, all I have to do is look into a window of the White House. You might not like it, but that's how you prove things. But how do I know God exists? Because I just know it." You negate yourself. And of course, that is the Argument From Ignorance.

      "Creation proves there must be a Creator" – oooo, very dishonest here! Circular Argument, and you are supplying a very dishonest word to confuse: creation. Prove the universe was created – you can't. All science proves otherwise. There is absolutely no evidence that the universe was created. By dishonestly using the word "creation", you pervert the argument. Dishonest.

      "First and Second Law of Thermodynamics points to a beginning, which means there must be a Beginner." Ignoring your truly absurd misunderstanding of the laws of thermodynamics and your bizarre misapplication of them, the whole sentence is a massive non-sequitur. Nothing about the laws of thermodynamics (of anything else) affirms that there was nothng before the Big Bang. Major non-sequitur. And don't pretend you understand the laws of thermodynamics, because they are very difficult to understand, and they do not say what you think they say. And none of it proves a sentient "Beginner".

      "I established in the above answer there must be a god" Argument from assertion – you proved no such thing. All that follows will be garbage (and it was). Dishonest.

      "This just shows your presupposition to not listening to any of my answers and no matter what I would have said you would argue with it. I thought you atheists were all about logic and reasoning. This is neither of those things." Ad Hominem, sweeping generalization, and irrelevant conclusion. That's a grand slam of dishonest!

      "Why you don't believe in God and you can't quote any of the typical atheist speal" – hilarious! As this debate is fully developed and all atheist elements are on the table, you just told me to answer a question without being able to use any evidence. Lame lame lame.

      Why? Because there is absolutely no evidence that any deity exists. Because the claims of religion are ludicrous, contradictory, and in harsh opposition to the evidence of science and all experience. Because religious people are less moral than atheists, when they should be more moral if their claims were true.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:54 pm |
    • Topher

      "Last question....Is God's love unconditional?"

      God loves you, oh yes. But it's not some pampering love. If you sin you deserve punishment because God is not only loving but He's also just. But God has so loved you He died taking the punishment you deserve. He paid the ultimate price for YOU. Yet you continue to deny Him and shake your fist at Him.

      July 8, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Can you prove there's anything there to shake a fist at?

      July 8, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      @Larry Bob

      YOU GO LARRY BOB!

      July 8, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Tom, Topher as already shown that he can 't prove the existence of his god. He simply won't admit to himself that all he has is his faith. I guess faith isn't enough for him.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      That's the crux of it, tally. If believers like Topher would simply be honest and say that they cannot prove there's a God, but that they believe in one, I'd have no problem with it. When Gopher starts lying, I have no reason to even consider anything he has to say about faith, god, religion or the bible.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
    • JG

      Sorry pal, there is no such thing as sin. But you keep sending those checks in to the church........or else.

      God doesn't need to punish anyone.......and he doesen't. There are no winners and losers......there just is.....

      July 8, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
    • Alvin

      Topher is actually proving he has no faith, that he needed and searched for evidence instead, inventing it as needed.

      Isn't it strange that none of the disciples or Paul had faith either? They all got evidence. They all got proof.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • JG

      Topher, you don't believe in God but in dogma. If you can get past that you might find Her........

      July 8, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
    • JG

      Sorry, but I have to go. Need to charge my wife's iPad. If I don't she will throw me in a lake of fire........but she would do it because she loves me.......

      July 8, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • john the guy not the baptist

      Shake your fist at HIM. Really, okay , but to attract his minions on earth would it not be easier to shake your uncircu*mcised member at him?

      July 8, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • jwt

      Why ? So the minions can suck it ?

      July 8, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      Topher.. Is heaven a place where we are all naked or do we wear clothes...are they the clothes we were wearing at the time of death? also what age are we in heaven< the age at which we die or do we continue to age? i mean if you had a buddy who died as teenager, and you pass on when you are say 80.. are you doing to be peeved to see he has a young body for eternity whereas you will have the 80 year old carcass to hall about? do you have to eat in heaven? If you dont then why could god not have had this requirement of us on earth, he could have prevented countless millions of deaths . I hope you have some answers as you are surely planning to go there but is it a place you want to be??

      July 8, 2012 at 6:16 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      Topher is a weasel.

      July 8, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,

      >>Why didn't Jesus say anything against slavery?

      >What does He say in favor of it?

      What a cop out. Paul claims that God means, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything..." in Colossians. Is this an endorsement of slavery?

      July 8, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,

      p.s. If it's not an endorsement of slavery then again, "why didn't Jesus say anything against slavery?"
      Knowing what Paul would say, one would think that Jesus would clarify His stance on the subject.

      July 8, 2012 at 7:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      7 Woes to the enemies of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior still holds to His truth today. Matthew 23.

      July 8, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
    • jwt

      7 woes eh ? You are one of them HS. yawn – imaginary threats from an imaginary god. Does that make you an imaginary person ?

      July 9, 2012 at 5:05 am |
  18. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    See prayer change things at my website, prolapsed.net.

    July 8, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Prolapsed rectum

      Don't bother unless you are unhappy with your doctor.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      troll spouting a commercial for his/her own website.

      bad etiquette.

      July 8, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • AGuest9

      As opposed to the usual troll under that name?

      July 8, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
  19. katmartz

    First, it's separation of Church and State. Second, abuse is not covered under the guise of religion. Causing infection and death is considered abuse.

    July 8, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
  20. Consti

    How about the separation of State and Church?

    July 8, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • katmartz

      First, it's separation of Church and State. Second, abuse is not covered under the guise of religion. Causing infection and death is considered abuse.

      July 8, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • tallulah13

      These infants are being subjected to this potentially lethal procedure without being given the chance to give their consent. Until they are of legal age to give that consent, they are under the protection of child abuse laws.

      July 8, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.