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July 10th, 2012
10:00 PM ET
Episcopal Church approves same-sex blessing serviceBy Michael Pearson, CNN (CNN) - Episcopal priests will be allowed to conduct services blessing same-sex relationships under a policy approved Tuesday at the church's national convention in Indianapolis. The convention's House of Bishops approved the provisional policy 111-41 with three abstentions Monday, clearing it for consideration by the House of Deputies, which approved it Tuesday evening. The policy was approved in the House of Deputies, following more than an hour of debate, by 78% of the voting lay members and by 76% of clergy. With the vote, the Episcopal Church will become the largest U.S. denomination to officially sanction same-sex relationships. The Episcopal Church has about 1.95 million members in the United States, down 16% over the last decade, according to the church. The service is not considered a marriage ceremony, media affairs representative Nancy Davidge said. FULL STORY
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To Primewonk, Tom, Hawaii, whomever responded to my posts:
I sent a link of this forum to my pastor. He gently scolded me saying you dont be rude to people, pull them down or say things like Obama Bin Biden to make your point. He's advising me to stop posting on these forums since the christian thing is to explain one's viewpoint and its up to the other person whether he accepts it or not. That I'm doing more damage than good.
So, if anyone was hurt, sorry. That was not my point. I want to save as many souls as possible by educating people of the truths.
Peace.
No, you don't, you lying sack of poo. What you want, you dishonest creep, is to spew your asinine, antiquated, desp icable views on women, gays, politics, and anything else your idiot mind lights on. You're stupid and ignorant.
The only thing your 'pastor' is right about is that you should get off here. What he failed to tell you to do was to grow up, get an education, read something other than the Bible and stop being a complete ass.
I shall not respond with like negativity. Peace be on you, Tom. I will pray for you.
You can't respond, you simpleton. You are a liar. You don't even remember how to tell the truth.
Keep your useless twaddle to yourself. Go blow.
"He's advising me to stop posting"
Obviously you aren't taking his advice seriously, which shows a lot about your personal character. Who wants to bet this yahoo will keep posting.
Oh, no doubt. Just like L, he'll change his screen name and imagine God won't notice.
But I did. My first response was to put something like "So you think the bible is inine, antiquated, desp icable?"
I just let him know that I wont be going down the negatve path like him. This is REALLY the last post. Just put it here to explain that the earlier and this one arent really serious posts from me.
Peace be on you all. Amen.
It's INANE, you doofus. You'll be here within days, posting more of your ridiculous drivel about outlawing all abortion, divorce, gay marriage, blah, blah, blah.
SOC
You are still a bigot. Your posts consistantly proved it.
@SoldierOfConscience
You said, "I sent a link of this forum to my pastor. He gently scolded me saying you dont be rude to people, pull them down or say things like Obama Bin Biden to make your point. He's advising me to stop posting on these forums since the christian thing is to explain one's viewpoint and its up to the other person whether he accepts it or not. That I'm doing more damage than good."
I suspect that your pastor realized that you weren't helping his case. If anything, your, um, let's call them "arguments", aren't convincing anybody to join his side. If anything, they may cause some of his flock to realize the whole thing is bullshit and walk away. He depends on a decent sized flock for his livelihood. You are threatening his income.
You said, "So, if anyone was hurt, sorry. That was not my point."
I appreciate the sentiment.
You said, "I want to save as many souls as possible by educating people of the truths."
If you want the truth, you should stop be putting down your religious texts and pick up a science book. Truth is establish, exclusively, through evidence.
You said, "Peace."
Same to you.
Tom,
I dont think SOC meant inane.
You stated that he follows the bible, and is a
1. liar
2. simpleton
3. idiot
also that he has "asinine, antiquated, desp icable views"
Logical conclusion to me is – according to g ays
a. Bible is "asinine, antiquated, desp icable"
b. Bible followers are idiots, simpletons, liars
remember this, fellow christians when voting in maryland on the g ay question. what g ays think about you.
Also, when somebody says they are sorry if they hurt, pile on more abuse. What does that say about this g ay dude?
clarifying above note. SOC obviously left out the as in 'asinine, antiquated, desp icable'
Stupid sh!t, I'm not gay and I'm not a guy. Get a friggin' brain cell and learn to use it.
I am mildly confused about something. If you are not Episcopalian, what right do you have to speak to what their church should and should not allow?
It is clear that not all Christian denominations/non-denominations agree, otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them. So if you don't agree with what they do, don't join their church, right?
because those doing so feel that they speak for god.
Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex. .
"d eviant behavior "
This just shows you have ABSOLUTELY no facts about gays. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
http COLON SLASH SLASH goo DOT gl SLASH Mwwrj
I have african american friends who bristle when their fight is used as a pretext to encourage d eviant behavior and 'bless' it. The link above is of a black pastor from the state of washington.
Black people are discriminated against because they are born black.
Gay people are discriminated against because they are born gay.
Black people were not allowed to marry who they love, because they were black.
Gay people are not allowed to marry who they love, because they are gay.
Black people are denigrated, castigated, beaten, bashed, and killed, just for being black.
Gay people are denigrated, castigated, beaten, bashed, and killed, just for being gay.
What, exactly is your point?
Line 2 : wrong
Line 4 : this upsets society's balance
Line 6 : I totally disagree with the beaten, bashed and killed part. As far as the denigrated part, they are rightly denigrated for g ay behavior not because they have g ay tendencies (two separate aspects)
Primewonk
Don't bother arguing with SOC...he is a moron.
He tries to use his immoral religion to justify his hatred.
He doesn't have a clue
We say love the sinner, hate the sin
see http COLON SLASH SLASH goo DOT gl SLASH yHe3J
especially the section on pastor Fred Robinson. You will see this is not bigotry at all.
who invited me thinks anyone that disagrees with him is a moron. typical atheist.
You claim that gay people are not discriminated against for being gay. In many states gay peoiple can be fired for being gay. In many states gays can be discriminated against in housing for being gay. Your claim that gays are not discriminated against only shows the depth of your profound ignorance.
You claim that allowing gays to marry upsets societies balance. Please explain how. Be specific.
You claim that it is right to denigrate gay folks. Your god must be so fucking proud of you.
No SOC
I think anyone who hates for the sake of hate is a moron. You have proven with your posts you have the intellectual abiliy of a small soap dish
They are RIGHTLY denigrated because they have gay tendencies?? You really are a bigoted arrogant jerk-off aren't you? So you're all for gays beibg beaten because they are gay.. now we know where you stand. Just HOW will gays marrting upset society's balance. be specific and list your sources not your opinions. And please.. tell us .. just when did YOU choose to be hetero? Give us the year you chose to be straight. How old were you when you made that decision?
In your frothing post, you didnt see what I said above about totally disagreeing with the beatings. In fact, all resources should be put into catching those doing beating, killing etc and throwing them behind jail doors.
Mirosal, I did not choose to be a hetero. That is the normal orientation. Likewise, the normal family is dad, mom and kids. The kids need both mom and dad *for different role models*
SOC
You a judging people for their behavior but not their tendancies? You don't want people to act in a way that is normal for them....on what do you base your judgement? If you are stupid enough to say the reason is religious in noture, first off you are misinterpretting your little guide book, and by the same token, you are proving that the purpose of religion is to control people.
So SOC....Why are you condeming people for acting normally for them? Is it just because you are a mindless puppet of your religion, or do you have some scientific reason for believing that gay people need fixing?
Primewonk,
I did not say there is no discrimmination. Only that said discrimmination is because of g ay BEHAVIOR not for g ay tendencies. If some people are not comfortable with g ay behavior then its their right to do whatever about it. Thats NOT the same as discrimmination based on color of skin. that was teh whole thrust of the OP. that when real sufferers of discrimmination say this is not right, I take their word for it.
Also, "marrying" a s ame s3x person because you CHOOSE to act out on your unspeakable tendencies totally screws up society. Look up any ex – g ay person who gives testimony to his cure. I am not judging the person (again, love the sinner hate the sin) just the activity. Just like pr0n addiction, I dont know what else.. there are many unhealthy tendencies.
SOC
You try to say that you are not a moron, and then you post something like this.
I would say it is ironic but I doubt you would understand
"Only that said discrimmination is because of g ay BEHAVIOR not for g ay tendencies. If some people are not comfortable with g ay behavior then its their right to do whatever about it."
People absolutely, unequivocally DO NOT have the right to discriminate against others because they are uncomfortable with there lifestyle. That you would even say that is almost atounding. And the second half of your argument is useless. Pron addicition causes people to spend money they don't have, on a product they don't need, to fulfil an obession; to the detriment of their relationships with friends and family, and their ability to meet their personal responsibilities (like work). It is no worse of an addiction than say gambling or online shopping, but it is much better then being addicted to drugs, as it has no detrimental physical effects (if you're vigorous about it it may even serve as exercise). You are bigotted because of your faith, plain and simple. And your faith claims that this is acceptable. It is not.
SOC, Primewonk
My mindset is this:
decades ago, we didnt have this much crime. We had mom/dad raising kids in houses lined with picket fences. we had the american dream. Very few single moms, disruptive kids, ADD, drug addiction, etc etc
Why are we in the midst of hell in a handbasket, socially?
Because of the breakdown in the whole system. I can point to a few factors:
a/ No fault divorce, one of the worst thing ever for marriages {and accompanying loss of social stigma on divorcees}
b/ s@me s3x 'marriage', one of the worst thing ever for marriages, diluting the meaning of marriage. we already have the p0lygamists calling out for recognition based on the fact that g ay people have it. Be afraid what will come next...
c/ Lack of respect for the un born child : If you cant respect the un born child, how are you going to respect living children or families?
We just need to turn the clock back, so to speak in these areas. We can keep modern science and the internet etc etc, it will be a perfect situation.
for the record im a thirty something conservative, not an old 80 year old rooting for the 'good old days'
Discrimination against gay folks because you think they are icky is exactly the same as discrimination against black folks because you think they are icky.
Gay folks do not choose to be gay anymore than folks choose to be left-handed or black. And not that long ago, you ignorant religious nutters claimed being left-handed was a sign of the devil, and being black was the mark of Cain.
You nutters were wrong then, you nutters are wrong now.
SOC
Turn the clock back...to when
To when women couldn't vote and were the property of their husbands?
To when your church could dictate who you married?
To when people engaged in slavery and pointed out the bible condoned it?
To gay people (who have always existed) had to live in fear of judgemental people like you who use their religion to control everyone around them?
To when women could not get safe a b ortions and had to die for it (I do not condone a b ortion, it is mu r der, but I cannot force my beliefs on others...that is worse from a morality standpoint than the abortion)?
I wish we could send you back to a time when people were that ignorant and superst i tious...you clearly are not evolving with the rest of humanity
Regarding the "good old days" –
As recently as the mid 70's in many states there were no laws regarding spousal rape. Why? Because of religious nutters like this putz. They said that the bible requires wives to submit to their husbands, therefore r was not possible.
As recently as 1979 some states had "Head and Master laws". These laws stated that the husband automatically had the final authority in all decisions. Why? Again, it was because of religious nutters like this putz.
Good old days my àss.
one line translation of my OP which has gone in 20 different directions:
the b lack people should know discrimmination. They say this is not discrimmination. So its not.
"the b lack people should know discrimmination. They say this is not discrimmination. So its not."
Yo moron, marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.
The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
A federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.
@SOC,
AS a gay black man if he feels that he is discriminated against for both aspects, I'll let him prove you wrong.
That should have said Ask, not As
the b lack people should know discrimmination. They say this is not discrimmination. So its not.
Which black people? I know a lot of people of a lot of races. They are of mixed opinions. For every black person I know who says they don't think it's the same discrimination, I know one who does think it's the same.
Opinions are not facts.
apparently, everyone needs a ni**er
As stated in my first response to this post, the thrid response overall
SOC is a moron and not worth trying to argue with.
He continues to prove my point with each of his posts.
Yeahright, so you want unelected judges to decide the laws of the land. Be very afraid, laws that you like will be next.
So besides purposefully choosing to be ignorant about the science of sèxual orientation, SOC chooses to be ignorant about the constîtution and the function and purpose of the judiciary.
we're talking at each other rather than having a real conversation.
so no point.
Love the sinner, hate the sin
Love the sinner, hate the sin
Love the sinner, hate the sin
PEACE.
"Love the sinner, hate the sin"
Please give the exact scripture that is found. Oh...that's right Gandhi said that and not your god. LMAO!
"love the sinner"
Yet you previously stated that it was good to denigrate gay folks?
And your putz of a god commands that you kill gay folks.
Where the hell is the love?
Primewonk, even with my kids its not always hugs and kisses.
Sometimes you need TOUGH LOVE. to correct aberrant behaviors.
"aberrant behaviors."
That's where you are wrong, hundreds of thousands of experts have proven that being gay isn't a choice, it's not a mental illness and it can't be voluntarily changed. Only prejudice bigots spew this type of nonsense. Duh!
@SOC,
Aside from "God is against it", why does the behavior need to be corrected? Give a REAL example of what it does that is so bad.
SOC,
The key to your statements is that you are "thirty something". Those fantasies about the past come from watching old TV shows that reflected wishful thinking and not the reality of the times. If you actually think they reflected reality, remember that they couldn't even show a husband and wife in bed together. There were many families then that didn't divorce because it was wasn't acceptable. There are many instances of "staying together for the kids" that resulted in frequent domestic disputes and miserable lives for those kids.
Don't blame gay marriage. That is quite new. Marriages were in deep trouble long before that came along.
Get back to reality.
To Tom, Primewonk, Hawaii, whomever else responded to my posts:
I sent a link of my conversations to my pastor. He gently scolded me saying you dont be rude to people, pull them down or say things like Obama Bin Biden to make your point. He's advising me to stop posting on these forums since the christian thing is to explain one's viewpoint and its up to the other person whether he accepts it or not. That I'm doing more damage than good.
So, if anyone was hurt, sorry. That was not my point. I want to save as many souls as possible by educating people of the truths.
Peace.
"I want to save as many souls as possible by educating people of the truths. "
Start with this truth. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
?!
What bible and what form of Christainity are the Episcapalian sect reading and practicing? The bible(Jesus Christ teachings) states in Genesis Chapter 1., verses 27 and 28 that God made man and woman for each other. There is not a variation of the man and woman relationship.
"23And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles."
So you couldn't comprehend that they were worshiping a pagan god using sex, it has nothing to do with what we now know and understand about long term loving relationships of the gay community. Duh! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
You fools, that is why Jesus wrote:
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and 12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Um, Gary? Jesus didn't write Thessalonians.
"You fools, that is why Jesus wrote: "
No they are not. Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.
that's a real big touche' for Gary 🙂 🙂 🙂
Perverts corrupt scriptures so they can continue with their perverted lifestyles.
L
the "scriptures" are perverted to begin with
"Perverts corrupt scriptures so they can continue with their perverted lifestyles."
Prejudice bigots are the ones trying to twist the scriptures to justify their hateful hearts. The experts have proven you WRONG and your ego can't handle it. Duh!
John, you believe satan's lies. Satan deceives the whole world and it is God who sends non-believers strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, . . . (2 Thessalonians 2:11).
Soon, consistent with His righteous and holy ways, the Lord will send "the man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) whose coming "is according to the working of Satan" (2 Thessalonians 2:9) so that people will "believe the lie."
God sends the Antichrist (1 John 2:18) and his false prophet "who deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14).
Why? "Because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved" (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Sooner than you thing will be the coming Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3; Revelation 6).
Amen.
correction "sooner than you think".
What experts YeahRight? The only expertise that list of professionals you make a big deal over acquired is they are as carnally blinded to His Spiritual truth, as the rest of you atheists are. That is what Jesus said, the blind leading the blind into the ditch.
And of course, HS, you have degrees in what fields, exactly? You've studied what texts on the issue, precisely?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
"And of course, HS, you have degrees in what fields, exactly? You've studied what texts on the issue, precisely?"
You can study and have number of degrees, but if you reject God and His son Jesus Christ, all you are and ever will be is an EDUCATED FOOL!
( But most of the time those who boast about how educated they are , they're just blowing hot air!... They give themselves away! )
"You can study and have number of degrees, but if you reject God and His son Jesus Christ, all you are and ever will be is an EDUCATED FOOL! "
The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).
It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.
@Smithsonian
And just whose crap are you selling here as fact?!
You've never really studied the Bible, and if you say that you did, then it must have been under some washed out "authority" who is as good as dead! Holy Bible is a spiritual book, and because God is a Spirit, it is only BY His Spirit that man can understand it, rightly dividing the Word of Truth!
"the Word of Truth!"
It's not the word of truth when it's been proven to be fiction.
Translation of Nope's post: Nope doesn't have much more than a high school education and is nothing more than a Bible-believing nitwit who uses the Scriptures as an excuse to discriminate and hate.
Romans 1 >>
New Living Translation
21Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
24So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have s.e.x and instead indulged in s.e.x with each other. 27And the men, instead of having normal se.x.ua.l relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
28Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, h.a.te, envy, mu.r.der, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30They are backstabbers, h.at.ers of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
Great yet another steaming pile of sh!t left on the information highway Haven't you ever heard of poop and scoop.
"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)
And you folks choose to worship this putz!
The Word of God is a mirror in which man sees his real condition.
It exposes the innermost thoughts and secrets of his heart.
And how he reacts to what he sees, reveals who he really is.
For those who reject the truth about themselves, and lordship of God who gave them life, there is only one thing left to do: to rage inside, and spew out the 'evidence' of what lies deep with in them!
And that's the real, unsugar coated truth !
he "word of god" is not a mirror, it is a mirage. It may LOOK real, but as you get close enough to examine it, you find that it's only an illusion that cannot hold up to scrutiny.
A bellyfull of magic mushrooms is a mirror with which the consumer can see their real self
sounds like you're talking a bout a lot of Christians right here in the USA !
Stop it you might get killed 🙂 🙂 🙂
Prayer changes things
spam, spam, spam – Sing it with me !! spam, spam, spam...
Truth is never ever spam. God bless
I agree truth is not usally spam. This however is not the truth in any possible way.
Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!
true ! I received the Holy Spirit as Jesus precribed in John chapter 7 through prayer...
now I am witness to all who read this.. 🙂 🙂
"now I am witness to all who read this"
"witness" should be "witless"
No, that wasn't a "typo" but a simple revelation of what you will become, comes the day you find the truth.
"There is no reputable scientific genetic link of DNA causing h0m0se.xuality. None."
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
@Keith
I'm wondering when you're going to get it into your thick skull that the only people who will take your stupid bible quotes seriously already agree with you. All you're doing is preaching to the choir, and throwing out useless quotes in an attempt to feel like you refuted something.
@Keith
You better watch out!
Better not cry!
Better not pout!
I'm telling you why,
Santa Claus is comin' to town.
He's making a list
and checking it twice.
He's going to find out who's naughty and nice.
Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town.
He sees when you're sleeping.
He knows when you're awake.
He knows if you've been bad or good.
So be good for goodness sake!
You better watch out!
Better not cry!
Better not pout!
I'm telling you why,
Santa Claus is comin' to town.
With little tin horns and little toy drums,
rootie-toot-toots and rum-a-tum tums.
Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town.
Curly head dolls that toddle and coo,
elephants, boats and kiddie cars too.
Santa Claus is comin' to town.
The kids and girls in boyland
will have a jubilee.
They're going to build a toyland town,
all around the Christmas tree.
You better watch out!
Better not cry!
Better not pout!
I'm telling you why,
Santa Claus is comin' to town.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
That's what it says.
Seems to me though that the GLBT community is far from being "highly esteemed among men". Certainly just in the past decade their acceptance has barely climbed to 50% of the population. And up until just the past two years, a large majority opposed gay marriage, and at least half of Americans still do.
Esteemed?
Where I come from it's the church deacons who pray in public and bemoan the loss of prayer in schools who are esteemed. Their fans conveniently forget the words of Jesus that advise praying in a closet if you want the prayer heard. Why? Because they are much more concerned with the esteem.
It's what "prayer in school" is about. It's what Facebook religious posturing and Jesus picture posting is about. It's what "religious" politicians are seeking. It's even what the great defenders of the faith on this blog are getting out of faith. Esteem.
That's the thing about the bible. It will say practically anything, so throwing verses at others is extremely easy. And when the feces gets spattered back onto the esteemed thumper, they have usually disappeared.
Gays aren't esteemed by any stretch of the imagination. That claim sounds just like something a Southern klansman would've said in the 1960's about blacks, who only wanted equal rights.
Wow, Keith, a QUOTE. You don't get anymore convincing than that. Way to phone it in.
Our point exactly since the fall of man at the garden sin is inborne and natural. Anyone can become a hom.os.exu.al if he or she chooses. It happens all the time. I cant count how many times ive heard of men abusing women and then all the sudden they are le.s.bi.a.ns. When prior to the abuse they showed no sign of being a le.s.bia.n nor partook in a le.sb.ia.n relationship or had le.sb.ia.n fantasys. Your science is junk science proliferated by Activists with evil hearts.
"Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."
That's why in the hearts of gays is their sexual orientation is normal for them and you're the one trying to push your ego version of prejudice and bigotry of the gay community which is completely not founded in the REAL truth. Duh! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
rabbit: choose to be a different orientation. go ahead, i dare you to try.
@rabbit,
Our point exactly since the fall of man at the garden sin is inborne and natural. Anyone can become a hom.os.exu.al if he or she chooses. It happens all the time."
Actually, no. It doesn't. People do not change their orientation. A gay man who has s.e.x with a woman is still a gay man. However, there are many more stops on the spectrum than just hetero and ho.mo.se.xual.
"I cant count how many times ive heard of men abusing women and then all the sudden they are le.s.bi.a.ns. When prior to the abuse they showed no sign of being a le.s.bia.n nor partook in a le.sb.ia.n relationship or had le.sb.ia.n fantasys."
First of all, how would you know what fantasies they may have had? And again, there's that whole spectrum thing to consider. Anyone who was in a hetero relationship, is abused and leaves it for a lesbian relationship is likely bi. It is us bi-se.xuals who are able to choose which attraction we're going to follow. Most choose hetero relationships because they're easier socially. Many don't even realize that they are bi until much later in life when something happens to awaken them.
I, for one, was over 30 before I realized it.
"Your science is junk science proliferated by Activists with evil hearts."
Most scientists aren't activists. They're scientists. They look for answers.
Most activists don't have "evil hearts"...they have passion and desire for their cause.
"You almost sound as if you're defending the ABOMINATION SIN of h0m0se.xuality?"
How does one "defend" a natural and god-given trait?
I suppose the same one defends their shoe size, height, or eye color.
How can natural traits be sins? And, if you are taling about behavior, how can falling in love, forming a lhealthy family, and receiving a blessing in your place of worship be considered sins at all?
There is no reputable scientific genetic link of DNA causing h0m0se.xuality. None.
Nor is there an established genetic link to being str8. Another false equivalency.
But I'm sure the Communist States of Amerikka will soon be filled with scientists that will "prove" there is a genetic link-they'll probably even win the Nobel Peace Prize. All lies, of course. And then Janet Napolitano can have her DHS/ TSA nazi thugs arrest and re-educate any intolerable bigots who might disagree with the "new" scientific findings.
Are you being treated for those paranoid delusions ?
midwest rail, Careful, there pal. Your use of the word "Nor" will land you in the same re-education camp as me. Your h0m0 perverted friends won't be pleased....
"There is no reputable scientific genetic link of DNA causing h0m0se.xuality. "
Poor Keith doesn't understand what a phenotype is which is why he spews his unfounded hatred not based on real facts. LMAO!
TC, If you claim the name of "Christian", you need only look in the mirror as one of those apostates who are responsible for the righteous judgment God which is upon this nation right now-and because the word "REPENT" is foreign to you, this judgment will get more severe. Thanks.
The episco pals laid an egg on this one
"TC, If you claim the name of "Christian", you need only look in the mirror as one of those apostates who are responsible for the righteous judgment God which is upon this nation right now-and because the word "REPENT" is foreign to you, this judgment will get more severe. Thanks."
Don't the Catholics believe that Pride is the greatest of the Seven Deadlies?
How much pride does one have to possess to believe he speaks on behalf of God as to who is or isn't a True Scotsman?
It must be a tough job. All the work and research you must do into each and every facet of the lives of those you condemn. You must, right? How huge a sin would it be to get it wrong, and speak for God incorrectly? Man, I bet you pored over that guys every thought and action in order to make that judgment.
Funny how it appears you only read a few sentences of something he wrote.
Trust me, dude. If the architect of this awesome universe does turn out to be a deity rather than chance, I can assure you He isn't the insecure simpleton you believe him to be. And IF He's really into punishment, I'm betting He starts first and foremost with those who were prideful enough to speak on His behalf, without so much as a molecule of understanding of true justice or love.
Wow, spelling America incorrectly. Sure adds an edginess to your drivel.
Bob, Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
You think wilfully commiting of sin is "doing" the Father's will?
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
"one who sleeps with another man as one would with a woman is a sinner."
The Scriptures at no point deal with homosexuality as an authentic sexual orientation, a given condition of being. The remarkably few Scriptural references to "homosexuality" deal rather with homosexual acts, not with homosexual orientation. Those acts are labeled as wrong out of the context of the times in which the writers wrote and perceived those acts to be either nonmasculine, idolatrous, exploitative, or pagan. The kind of relationships between two consenting adults of the same sex demonstrably abounding among us - relationships that are responsible and mutual, affirming and fulfilling - are not dealt with in the Scriptures.
The church policy is supposed to be 'Hate the sin, love the sinner' not 'love the sin'
What sin are you referring to? Forming families?
It's written in multiple places : one who sleeps with another man as one would with a woman is a sinner.
As a soldier, I can tell you are not one..you are an insult to real soldiers everywhere...you are also no ones conscience. We all have our own.
you are just an ignorant bigot...
CHANGE YOUR NAME
Actually, that is NOT written in many places, only Leviticus. Do ALL Christians today follow all of the guidelines for ancient hebrew preists as outlined in the holiness code? And, since you are only referring to men, can lesbian women marry?
The Big Lie as practiced by the contemporary faux Christian – " Love the sinner, hate the sin ". Having stolen the concept from another religion, it's no surprise that they've also corrupted it.
"You almost sound as if you're defending the ABOMINATION SIN of h0m0se.xuality?"
The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.
In Genesis 18, the story about the angels coming to Lot's house, we learn that the reason they were coming to destroy Sodom was because of the wickedness that ALREADY existed in the city. The exact form of wickedness is not mentioned in that story!
Let's just reinforce this CRITICAL piece of information. In the story of Sodom, in Genesis 18, God had ALREADY decided to destroy the city BEFORE the attempted rape of the angels – which incidentally was perpetrated mainly by heterosexuals since ALL the men of the city were involved, and we know that throughout history, gays have only represented about 10% of the population. Also, if they were homosexuals, why would Lot suggest that they take his daughters instead? That just doesn't make sense if the men were gay.
So just to get this straight, the event that took place at Sodom was an act of violence and rape, mainly by heterosexuals. It had nothing to do with a loving relationship between two people of the same sex, and homosexuality was NOT the sin of Sodom in whatever form. The story of Sodom in Genesis 18 was about violence and domination, the same type of event that takes place in prisons and occupied countries, but it was NOT the reason for God's decision to destroy the city, and to use this story as a basis for prejudice against homosexuality in general is like comparing rape to marriage. There is NO similarity!
The aftermath of Sodom aside, let's take a look at other passages of Scripture that mention the sin of Sodom. Here are 14 references to Sodom and not one of them mentions homosexuality!!!!! The overwhelming themes are idolatry, immorality and inhospitality! To me, this indicates people like Bob and HeavenSent have taken things out of context!
Deuteronomy 29:17-26 – the sin – idolatry and images to false gods – "Why has the Lord done this to the land? . . . It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the Lord . . ."
Deuteronomy 32:32-38 – the sin – idolatry – "He will say 'Now where are their gods?'"
Isaiah 1:2-23 – the sin – idolatry, rebellion, injustice, murder, greed, theft, covetousness, mistreating the poor – "They have rebelled against Me."
Isaiah 3:8-19 – the sin – idolatry, arrogance – "Their words and deeds are against the Lord, defying His glorious Presence"
Jeremiah 23:10-14 – the sin – idolatry, adultery, lying by priests and prophets – "Both prophet and priest are godless. . . . They prophesied by Baal and led My people astray."
Jeremiah 49:16-18 – the sin – idolatry, arrogance, oppression, pride of the heart – "The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived
you. . ."
Jeremiah 50:2-40 – the sin – idolatry, pride, false prophets – "Her images will be put to shame and her idols filled with terror. . . . . For she has defied the Lord, the Holy One of Israel. . . . . Their shepherds have led them astray."
Lamentations 4:3-6 – the sin – cruelty and failure to care for the young and poor – "My people have become heartless."
Ezekiel 16:49-50 – the sin – "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned: they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me."
Amos 4:1-11 – the sin – idolatry, oppression, mistreating the poor – "I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom . . . . yet you have not returned to Me."
Zephaniah 2:8-11 – the sin – idolatry, pride, mocking – "This is what they will get in return for their pride, for insulting and mocking the people of the Lord Almighty. The Lord will be awesome to them when He destroys all the gods of the land."
Luke 17:26-29 – Jesus speaking – No specific sins mentioned
II Peter 2:1-22 – the sin – idolatry, living after ungodliness, lawlessness, arrogance, blaspheming, adultery, greed, corruption, depravity, boasting, lust – "But there were also false prophets among the people . . . . ."
Jude 1:7-8 – the sin – sexual immorality and perversion, i.e fornication after strange flesh (angels, see Genesis 6:1) KJV
The dictionary defines "perversion" as "a sexual practice regarded as abnormal". That means that a heterosexual practicing homosexual acts is perverted as in the case of ALL the men of Sodom wanting to engage with the angels (strange flesh). However, since sex with the same gender is normal for a gay person, there is no perversion associated merely by the sexual act.
Note also that, while the word "abomination" has been used with reference to homosexuality, the biblical interpretation of the word "abomination" relates to any act of uncleanness as set out in the Holiness Code, such as eating shellfish, trimming your hair, touching the skin of a dead pig (should we stone the entire NFL?), wearing clothes of two kinds of material (polyester/cotton) – the list is long. How can we discuss one sin to the exclusion of all others?
This is an enormous subject, which has been reduced to simplistic values. It is plain and simple prejudice to portray homosexuals as immoral just because of the gender to whom we are attracted. Of course there are immoral homosexuals, just as there are immoral heterosexuals, but simple orientation carries no implication of morality or immorality.
Our sexuality is God-given. God made us the way we are. It follows naturally that He loves us exactly the way He made us. So long as we embrace marriage with the same standards as any monogamous, loving heterosexual relationship there should be no barrier against us.
When gays are only asking to have their loving relationships acknowledged and respected, why is there so much fear and anger? To strengthen marriage, why not take a stand against divorce and separation, instead of opposing love and commitment? Jesus spoke of divorce, but he never mentioned homosexuality. I believe that was because homosexuality was not even an issue in His day. Love was love. Love IS Love!
"Protect marriage? Puhlease. With a 50 percent divorce rate, rampant domestic violence, Las Vegas drive-through chapels, and I wanna-marry-a-really-rich-guy reality TV shows, there's no way gays could trash marriage the way straight people have."
This letter only refers to the sin of Sodom. There are actually six "clobber verses" which are used against gays. Space does not permit an explanation of each one, but just as the sin of Sodom has been misrepresented, so have the other verses. There is an explanation for each one that clearly indicates that, just as slavery was condoned by Scripture for many years, ("Slaves obey your masters . . . . ." Eph. 6:5-8) and civil wars were fought to protect the ownership of people, we now know that Scripture was interpreted incorrectly, for God would not have people to be possessions.
We now have a fuller understanding of Scripture with regard to slavery. It's time to accept a fuller understanding of homosexuality based on new research into language, concepts and customs when these words were written.
So please choose acceptance and inclusiveness whether or not you understand fully. One of us is wrong. Many of you think it's me. I think it's you, based on solid research into Scripture from another perspective. Yes, God encourages us to question Scripture.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, REPROOF and instruction in righteousness." II Tim. 3:16
If there is even a chance that I could be right, do you want to take the eternal risk of rejecting some of God's children, and slamming the doors of your churches to those of us who wish to enter? That's what you're doing when you treat us as less than yourselves simply based on our orientation.
If we have done the research, and it is our understanding that God loves us, including our orientation, then why not just let God be the judge? He will be in the end anyway. If one of us is to err, why not err on the side of love and acceptance? Now that was truly Jesus' example!
That is 10,000 superflous words that sounds like an excruciating exercise in trying to reconcile your Bible with your moral intuition. I hope you realize that you can obviate any need for this acrobatic exegesis by simply stopping to pretend that the Bible has any special significance aside from how many copies it sells.
The Bible... or Human Rights? CHOOSE ONE.
Elaine,
You almost sound as if you're defending the ABOMINATION SIN of h0m0se.xuality?
Leviticus 20:13
I TImothy 1:10
And I follow that up with Romans 3:23
The Episcopal church needs to be very careful here. It is not up to us to re-write the Bible to fit today's society. We are also not to condem simmers we are to love them. I know I am a sinner and were it not for Christ dying for my sins, I would be going to hell. Heaven will be filled with sinners and saints alike. The common denominator is forgiveness of sin. SHould we understand this action as church support for sinning?
Keith: Wow, a sin.....pretty bad, eh?
"Leviticus 20:13"
Christians don't follow Leviticus anymore, it's part of the Holiness Code, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Duh! If you're going to cherry pick like that what about all the other abominations that Christians don't follow today. LOL!
"I TImothy 1:10"
Since you're clueless, the word homosexual was added to the bible later by bias scribes. Theologians are fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey, since the idea of a homosexual sexual orientation only surfaced in the 19th century after the start of the scientific study of human sexuality. Also, "arsen" in Greek means "man." Thus, it is most unlikely that "arsenokoitai" could refer to both male gays and lesbians. Theologians have suggested that "arsenokoitai" means masturbators, pimps, prostitutes, boy sex slaves, male prostitutes, or abusive pedophiles. It has nothing to do with homosexuality as we know and understand it today.
@Elaine
Will your explanations of the Word of God stand the trying by fire, when the intents of your heart are revealed?
Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy., Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex
"This article, however is about the Episcopals "blessing" a clearly sinful lifestyle"
The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance, suspicion of those who are different, and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.
Clearly defined as sinful in the Bible. If you decide not to be a Christian, that is your choice, and I will not force my beliefs upon you.
But if a church claims to be Christian, yet fails to follow the foundational docüment of Christianity, I have the obligation to point out their error.
Who died and made you god?
there is nothing clearly defined about it at all.
I have seen people on both sides of the debate use EXACTLY the same 2000 year old quote and use it to bolster their arguement.
If it was as clear as you say, why the debate.
There is debate because people want to do what they want to do. They resist conforming their lives to God, and instead want to conform God to fit their lives. They will therefore "interpret" what is written to fit their own agenda.
I do not hate gays. Those who hate and preach hate, are far worse than their targets. If it were up to me, I wouldn't really care how two strangers interact with each other. But God states my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways – Isa 55:8
I don't presume to pass judgement on God, and I don't presume to disregard scripture.
Tom, no one died and made me God. I wouldn't presume. I am not dictating how you should live your life. I am merely commenting on what the rulebook says for Christians.
Why is commitment, monogamy, and forming a family only sinful id God has made a person attracted to the same gender? Does this really make sense to you?
"There is debate because people want to do what they want to do. They resist conforming their lives to God, and instead want to conform God to fit their lives. They will therefore "interpret" what is written to fit their own agenda."
Just curious.....
Between Calvin, Wesley, Luther, the Arminians, Augustine, Origen, and Aquinas (just for starters):
Which ONE of them was correct, and which we're just conforming God to fit their lives?
Since all of the above interpreted parts of scripture differently, you may only choose one, and write the others off as selfish bast.ards.
Of course, that probably won't be a problem for you, since like most, you follow one of these systems of belief already. Therefore you're used to writing off the many, many other theologies of very smart and very sincere men, present and past.
But....it doesn't make you right.
It doesn't matter that a church does not sanction gay marriage. A church should be able to decide who they will let participate in a religious ceremony. But the church should not determine the law. Two consenting adults should be able to marry each other in a civil ceremony.
Mary – I would agree with you, as I have no desire to live in a theocracy. This article, however is about the Episcopals "blessing" a clearly sinful lifestyle. Those of us who are Christian are pointing out, in a Christian context, that this is grossly misguided.
This has nothing to do with the "legality" of gay marriage/unions. As a US citizen, I do not believe there should be preferential treatment of one belief over another.
@KC – what is 'clearly' sinful about it. Can you tell the rest of us, without using a 2000 year old text, how two people in a committed, loving relationship is harmful?
a clearly sinful lifestyle
----
"Clearly" sinful to you, and others of a like narrow-mindedness. Not clear at all to more open-minded thinking people.
@MaryB: those of the Episcopal faith are known as Episcopalians not Episcopals. CNN needs to do a better job with their research and editing.
Clearly defined as sinful in the Bible. If you choose not to be a Christian, that is your choice, and I will not force my beliefs upon you.
But if a church claims to be Christian, yet fails to follow the foundational docüment of Christianity, I have the obligation to point out their error.
KC, you're an arrogant ass.
Tom, what makes me arrogant? I didn't author the bible. I only try to follow it.
KCArrowhead – there are 38,000 different christian denominations. All "believe" different things. All spin their bibles differently.
Yet, all of you are arrogant to thinkthat you "believe" correctly, and that you have the right spin on your bible.
Hom.ose.xuality is a sin and abomination to God. No matter how you spin it.
"more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that hómose*uality is not a mental disorder"
Mental health professionals and/or instítutions don't cater gayness.
"and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
It does need to be cured but can't be cured, just like cancer and AIDS.
"It does need to be cured but can't be cured, just like cancer and AIDS."
LMAO you have no clue what you're talking about thanks for showing the world what a stupid response looks like. LMAO! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
If being gay was accepted in the bible and by God don't you think people would have accepted it by now? Common sense people.
I think bigotry dies hard, but it does die.
common sense says not to believe what you read in a 2000+ year old book
Common sense should tell you that the bible was written by men 2000 years ago. What it says about numerous subjects is irrelevant. Furthermore, the obsession with this issue is ridiculous. Don't you think if it were such a terrible sin, it would be described specifically and clearly in the commandments? The fact that thumpers have to search for passages they think bolster excuse their bigotry makes it pretty clear that it wasn't all that important then.
Can you first explain what these stone-age nomadic scientifically ignorant shepherds knew about the science of sèxual orientation?
Hell, none of you fundiot nutters today have a clue about the science involved. If you did, this would be a moot point.
Citing fairy tales and imaginary friends is no way to show how much 'common sense' you have.
If being gay was accepted in the bible and by God don't you think people would have accepted it by now? Common sense people.
Well, honestly, when even believers of the bible and that specific god can not agree on what the bible does and does not say about gay folks, I would say it isn't exactly something that falls under "common sense"...and add to that the realization that in today's society we are not governed by the bible, nor do all of the citizens of the US believe in the bible....I think that largely just nullifies what you said.
Common sense is that all human beings should be treated equally.
Well, it took people about 1800+ years to think that slavery was wrong. And a little longer than that to think that interracial marriages were ok. So yeah, Epic Logic Fail on @Bringing's part.
Fortunately in the United States you have the CHOICE of which religion you want to practice. You don't have to accept Christianity, which has several varieties, as your faith of choice.
Keep in mind that there are religions that have been around longer than the top three: Judaism, Islam & Christianity.
The Christian Bible is not the be all and end all of religious teachings.
Then why does God keep making so many gay people? Spite?
Being gay was never accepted. You believe this lie because you are comfortable with your perverted lifestyle.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and 12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
"Being gay was never accepted. You believe this lie because you are comfortable with your perverted lifestyle."
You've been proven wrong by hundreds of thousands of experts. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
"more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that hómose*uality is not a mental disorder"
Mental health professionals and/or instítutions don't cater gayness.
"and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
It does need to be cured but can't be cured, just like cancer and AIDS!
Those health professionals stayed away from telling you it was a perversion now, didn't they?