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Unpacking report that Katie Holmes has rejoined Catholic Church
Actress Katie Holmes recently filed for divorce from actor Tom Cruise.
July 11th, 2012
06:27 PM ET

Unpacking report that Katie Holmes has rejoined Catholic Church

By Eric Marrapodi, Co-Editor, CNN's Belief Blog

(CNN) - In the blizzard of reports surrounding Tom Cruise's recent split with Katie Holmes, this one stands out: After her years married to Scientologist Cruise, Holmes is said to be rejoining the Roman Catholic Church of her youth.

A report from the Huffington Post with the decisive headline "Katie Holmes Returns to Catholic Church" has been rattling around the Internet since Monday. But the Internet newspaper cites a lone unnamed member of the church choir, who claims Holmes has registered as a parishioner of the Church of St. Francis Xavier in New York.

“Everyone is thrilled to have Katie join us,” the church member told Huffington Post reporter Naughty But Nice Rob. “She has not yet attended a service, but when she does she will be welcomed with open arms.”

“We have no comment regarding Katie Holmes in the context of reports of her becoming a parishioner of the Church St. Francis Xavier,” said Patrick Brewis, the church’s director of stewardship.

Brewis said the church has been flooded with calls and e-mails about the prospect of Holmes’ possible registration. He noted that regardless of who a parishioner or potential parishioner might be, the church doesn’t disclose that information.

“If Jane Smith or John Doe or Katie Holmes was a parishioner, we would not be sharing that information,” he said.

Holmes has likewise been mum since the recent news of her divorce, save a joint statement issued by representatives of the star couple.

"We want to keep matters affecting our family private and express our respect for each other's commitment to each of our respective beliefs and support each other's roles as parents," the statement read. It's unclear whether Holmes ever formally joined the Church of Scientology.

CNN's Belief Blog: the faith angles behind the big stories

The pastor of Church of St. Francis Xavier, Father Joe Costantino, told the Daily Beast he was caught off-guard when reporters started calling about Holmes' alleged membership.

“I didn’t even know who she was,” Costantino told the site. He added that if she had registered or taken Communion there recently, “It’s news to me.”

Joseph Zwilling, the spokesman for the Catholic Archdiocese of New York, couldn't confirm or deny that Holmes had joined the Church of St. Francis Xavier or any other Catholic church, saying that "if a person joined the parish, it’s done on the parish level.” Zwilling said he had not heard one way or the other from St. Francis Xavier's administrative offices.

Celebrities have bemoaned their lack of privacy when it comes to matters religious. "Next time I'm in church, please no photos," raps Kanye West in "Run this Town," a hit song he recorded with Rihanna and Jay-Z.

The Archdiocese of New York is no stranger to celebrity guests at its services, particularly at the famed St. Patrick's Cathedral, Zwilling said, but "we have not had any incidents with paparazzi or other people approaching (celebrities) at Mass. If they did they’d be asked to leave."

"Anyone who comes to Mass would be expected to follow the proper protocols," he said. "I think people understand and respect when you're in church, you don’t disturb them when they’re in a house of worship.”

Tod Tamberg, spokesman for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, was born in Hollywood and grew up going to St. Charles Catholic Church in North Hollywood. He remembered going to services with "Farrah Fawcett on one side of me, John Wayne's family on the other side of me and the Bob Hope family behind me."

Tamberg said he has had few, if any, incidents surrounding celebrities attending worship services.

"When they come through the doors of the church, people know who people are, but people are doing their own thing," he said. “I’ve never seen anyone ask for autographs over the years ... and I’ve been in position to see it a lot.”

Should Holmes decide to return to the Catholic Church, she could follow a similar script as Nicole Kidman, who was also once married to Cruise and was also raised Catholic.

Tamberg said Kidman has returned to the church since her divorce.

“Usually, what happens is, there’s still some ties to the church through your family,” he said. "My understanding with the Kidman story is, she was close to a priest her family had known their whole lives. That was helpful to her in picking up the pieces after the divorce."

Should Holmes decide to return to Catholicism, Tamberg said, it's a fairly easy process.

“You basically can pick it up where you left off,” he said, pointing to Jesus talking often in the Bible of rejoicing over wandering adherents returning to the fold.

"There’s no test you have to take. Once you’ve received the sacraments, those are a permanent mark," he said, citing the sacraments of Communion, baptism and confirmation.

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Even if a person has publicly renounced his or her faith, Tamberg said, returning would only be a matter of private counseling with a priest, though even that process is not formalized.

As the unnamed member of the Church of St. Francis Xavier and hordes of reporters wait for Holmes to attend a service in New York, they may want to consider that the parish has an online registration form that anyone can fill out.

In most parishes,  Zwilling noted, that's a form you have to fill out in person.

Brewis welcomed the attention paid to the Church of St. Francis Xavier, saying it is “striving to be a vibrant parishioner-driven community.” He added, “On the plus side, many people who hadn't heard about us and the extraordinary work we do have heard about us now.”

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Catholic Church

soundoff (1,139 Responses)
  1. religion; a way to control the weak minded

    "Well, it gives answers to life's questions, it passes tests on reliability and it is the truth."

    Sorry Topher....there is nothing out there and proves anything you said is true. Try again.

    July 12, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
  2. Katie's Designer Cilice

    Now Katie can enjoy being the celebrity at church, instead of the heretic 🙂

    July 12, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
  3. J.R.

    So how many hail marry's is it for being to-pless in a movie?

    July 12, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Fr. Love

      None, so long as you flash 'em in the confessional.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
  4. gerald

    Welcome home to the fullness of the truth, Christ's Church, where the gates of hell will never prevail no matter how much the haters of truth on this board try to convince us otherwise. THey aline themselves with those gates. The prodigal daughter has returned.

    July 12, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • Lewis Keseberg

      Enjoy the blood. It can even make you tipsy!

      July 12, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • hate on hater

      "Is this really the blood of Christ? He musta been wasted 24/7!"

      July 12, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • ME II

      @gerald,
      "...no matter how much the haters of truth on this board try to convince us otherwise. "
      I always have to wonder about the motivation behind such passive-aggressive hateful statements.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      It always amazes me when these guys use the word truth, but clearly do not know it meaning...
      You mean belief...not truth

      July 12, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • gerald

      Who invited so beliefs are never true? Truth cannot be realized? Are you absolutely sure there is not absolute truth? Can you prove that what I say is not the truth? Are all of yoru beliefs true? Are you sure my beliefs are not truth?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
    • gerald

      ME – Not hateful at all. Sad. Not hatefull.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:42 pm |
    • Lewis Keseberg

      @gerald,

      They could be true. This does not make them true. Simply calling them true, does not make it so. You may think them to be true, but some people with mental illnesses also think it true that they are the second coming of Christ. Simply thinking it does not make it so.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
    • Gerald, hater of truly true truth

      Gerald is the real hater of truth. I know what is true, not gerald. And gerald hates this. Because gerald hates true truth. Gerald cannot prove me wrong.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Gerald
      You did nto say that it was what you believe to be the truth...no one can dispute that
      When you claim something IS truth, you better be able to back it up.
      For instance I believe the bible is full of lies.
      I can prove several of the stories are untuthful
      I believe christianity is one of the least moral of all of the religions because you must allow someone else to accept your just punishment, which is a moral sin. SO christians must sin in order to become christians.
      Seperate belief from fact and you may start to find truth.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      "Are you sure my beliefs are not truth?"

      gerald,

      I am sure you can do nothing to prove your religious belief as true, just becasue there may be some small possiblity of a claim does not mean the claim should be accepted as true. They are claims and assertions and as such should not be considered true.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • Valerie

      Amen to what Gerald said.

      Welcome back home, Katie!

      July 12, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • ME II

      @gerald,
      "Not hateful at all. Sad. Not hatefull."
      Classifying all who disagree with you as "haters of truth" is rhetorically demonizing your opponent, i.e. name calling. Calling people names in not an indication of sadness, but antagonism... and childish.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • just sayin

      Gerald the supporter of chil r a p e speaks/ Go CATHOLIC CHURCH HOME OF R A P I ST SUPPORTERS.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • gerald

      "I am sure you can do nothing to prove your religious belief as true, "
      Is that true? Some people who I speak to accept what I say as truth. I am quite sure that I can do nothing to prove it to you but that does not mean I can't prove it to others. You can't prove that I can do nothing to prove my religious beliefs are true. 🙂 so don't present such statements as truth.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • gerald

      NoTruth – let me distill what I just said for you. Your post was full of claims and assurtions that you were sure of.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • gerald

      Invited – your post is really funny. You set some morals that I don't agree with and then you place them over my beliefs and then you think you have proven something. What I ask? Nothing I say.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
  5. Name*F morant

    The procedure for anyone returning to the Catholic Church is firstly they MUST go to confession. That is so important.

    July 12, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
    • Jerry Sandusky

      Make sure to bring the young ones!!

      July 12, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • gerald

      Hopefully she has.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
  6. christ jones

    America.....the land of faith haters and God lovers. God (?) or whatever...bless America!!

    July 12, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • Snapple

      Your comments are completely worthless. Re-evaluate your existence.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @X-Jones

      Last I checked it was the land of the free:
      Free to speak.
      Free to worship
      Free to not worship.
      etc.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
  7. ob

    So, instead of believing in thetans, audits, aliens etc., Katie now only believes in mindreading (or "prayers being heard") immortality (or "eternal life") transubstantiation (or bread aand wine magically becoming flesh and blood) and channelling (or "prayers being answered").

    Hmmm, compared to Catholics, those scientologists don't seem so crazy after all.

    July 12, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • christ jones

      Then you know nothing about either

      July 12, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • znpaul

      It's absolutely remarkable how people who know so little about a subject are willing to put that fact before millions of people on the Internet. If you don't like Catholics/Catholicism, at least state so, but please don't pretend you know anything about the Church's teachings.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
    • derp

      "but please don't pretend you know anything about the Church's teachings"

      So you are saying that you don't believe in virgin births, talking snakes, and resurrections?

      July 12, 2012 at 12:50 pm |
    • Fred Evil

      ob hits the nail on the head, and riles the Catholics.

      Sorry Catholics, your religion is just as nutter as everyone elses.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • Matt

      The vast majority of Christians do not believe in talking snakes. Even those (perhaps the majority of) American Christians who take the story of the Garden of Eden literally do not believe that some snake just started talking. That snake was used by a higher spiritual being. Now, you can insult me for believing in angels who have influence over beasts–that's fine–but it is different from believing in fairy tale magic (e.g., talking animals).

      This is a book about angels by one of the editors of the Harvard series, Great Books of the Western World: http://books.google.com/books?id=BCZYv1Cmb1sC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=angels+in+the+theological+tradition&source=bl&ots=ZyOBal4kOp&sig=T9YjcaGncSijWU3Kv8M9YgfMqfs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ywP_T9u0JsjaqgHs3vSKCQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=angels%20in%20the%20theological%20tradition&f=false

      He may be wrongheaded, but he's not an idiot.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
    • Matt

      That URL probably won't work. Try this one: http://tinyurl.com/bssj57v

      July 12, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • gerald

      Freddie thinks we are riled because he would be riled if someone misrepresented his beliefs. No not riled freddy. Maybe annoyed a bit. Not riled. Our religion tells us when others misrepresent us to bear up to it so we don't start a war .

      July 12, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • Jerry McLeppo

      Matt does not believe in a talking snake; he believes that a snake talked because God made it talk.

      Makes sense to him!

      July 12, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • Lewis Keseberg

      To a Catholic, a man can say a few words over a piece of bread and turn it, magically, into human flesh. It really is human flesh, even though it looks, tastes, smells, and feels like bread. But God is tricky. He wants it to seem like bread even though it actually, really, truly is human flesh.

      But yeah, the scientologists are the weird ones. Riiiiiiiight.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • gerald

      Lewis, if there were such a God as we have him defined, do you think it would be possible for him to do such a thing? And no it is not magic.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Lewis Keseberg

      Whatever helps you sleep better at night, gerald.

      A god, as you define him, could have everyone breathing in invisible, calorie-free chocolate chip cookies every five minutes after the hour every hour of every day. It still wouldn't make believing in invisible, floating, calorie-free chocolate chip cookies rational.

      And it would still make it magic. And if you believe in the bible, you must necessarily believe in magic – it's right there in the OT. We're specifically told how the Egyptians performed magic. Do you not believe your own book?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • VaticanRoulette

      They love kids. The younger the better...

      July 12, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • religion; a way to control the weak minded

      "If you don't like Catholics/Catholicism, at least state so, but please don't pretend you know anything about the Church's teachings."

      LOL thats funny. Christians dont even know the history of their own religion.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • ME II

      @gerald,
      "...if there were such a God as we have him defined, do you think it would be possible for him to do such a thing?"
      If you define God as all-powerful, i.e. He can do anything, then by definition it would be possible for Him to do anything.

      This, I think, is called a tautology and is essentially meaningless.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • derp

      "Matt does not believe in a talking snake; he believes that a snake talked because God made it talk"

      Christards are funny like that.

      They will claim the bible to be the absolute literal infallible word of god as it pertains to things they don't like, but when faced with the absurdity of their own story book, it becomes metaphorical and open to interpretation.

      The entire scheme is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
  8. well then...

    I think this is great news! Good job Katie.

    July 12, 2012 at 11:15 am |
  9. SPA Knight

    It seems to me that Katie Holmes has every right to return to her faith as she tries to rebuild her life. I am not familiar Scientology but I suspect that her experience in this lifestyle has probably led her to examine her life deeply and consider the future of her daughter. Welcome home.

    July 12, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • religion; a way to control the weak minded

      "experience in this lifestyle has probably led her to examine her life deeply and consider the future of her daughter."

      So indoctrinating a child is the answer?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Lux

      @religion. I think she's more comfortable with the familiar indoctrination.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • SPA Knight

      What indroctination are you referring to? That of her daughter into the Catholic Faith? For those who believe in nothing, exposure to anything other than nothingness is a form of indoctrination. There is nothing to fear about being raised and exposed to a faith that promotes loving God and loving your neighbors as yourself. The only fear may be that accepting those two as commandments will make you accountable to someone other than yourself and that can be scary for those who do not have enough courage to be that humble and vulnerable.

      July 12, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • ME II

      @SPA Knight,
      Nothing... other than the eternal guilt of sin that you never committed. Other than that, no.

      July 12, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
  10. Topher

    Good morning! If any has a theological question about Christianity, feel free to ask ...

    July 12, 2012 at 10:35 am |
    • Huebert

      Good morning Topher.

      Lets get started. What is the purpose of hell?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • sam stone

      Why do you feel yours is the correct god?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:44 am |
    • Topher

      Hey, Huebert. How are you today?

      "Lets get started. What is the purpose of hell?"

      It's where God sends those who break His laws.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:48 am |
    • LinCA

      @Topher

      Good morning to you, too.
      What are the colors of the emperor's new clothes?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:49 am |
    • Topher

      Hi, sam.

      "Why do you feel yours is the correct god?"

      Well, it gives answers to life's questions, it passes tests on reliability and it is the truth.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • Huebert

      Ok hell is where god sends those who brake his laws. To what end, what purpose does this serve?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:53 am |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      Of course Topher thinks his god is the right one. His book says so. Circular references prove anything.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • Cal

      So you "feel" yours is the correct God, just like others "feel" thiers is correct. How can objective observer tell which is the correct one when both appear to have an identical experience? Are those others' "feelings" just wrong, a deception by the alleged devil?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:57 am |
    • *sigh*

      "it gives answers to life's questions"

      Yup, like:

      q – is it ok for me to beat my slaves?

      a – yes. In fact, you can beat your slave to death, so long as the death is a slow one.

      Great work, Toph. What a wonderful instruction manual you have!

      July 12, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Topher

      Huebert

      It is the sentence for breaking the laws. When you break a law (meaning sin) you are doing so against God. So you are rejecting Him. If that is the case, if you spend your life shaking your fist at Him, you obviously don't want to spend eternity with Him either.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:59 am |
    • *sigh*

      Why is it that I can't help but to respond to a Poe? Argh!

      July 12, 2012 at 10:59 am |
    • Closet Atheist

      I wish life was like an excel program sometimes....

      Like when talking to somebody defending religion. If they make a circular reference to their religious scripture to validate their claims, they'd just freeze up and stop talking like my excel does when I do the same.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:01 am |
    • Topher

      Religion & Cal ...

      You're right on because the Bible says so. There's plenty of reasons to believe the Bible is accurate and true. It can be tested. And it's not about feelings. That would be blind faith. I don't need blind faith because I have the truth in the Bible.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      But Topher, what's the point of consigning someone to hell for eternity? There's no purpose–those sent there cannot be rehabilitated and go to heaven. What does sending them there achieve?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:03 am |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      There are plenty of reasons the bible is true, and that is because the bible says so!

      July 12, 2012 at 11:04 am |
    • Who invited me?

      Tom,tom
      You and I both know that what it acheives is to scare the "faithful" into being good
      unfortunatley, there are a lot of "god's children" who need to be tucked in at night, like this guy topher
      Already he has said' the truth" of the bible , and can't see why men made it for people like him.
      Topher is one that NEEDS to believe because he can't fathom reality.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • Huebert

      Topher

      Is hell a place of torture, or is it simply separation from god?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      @Closet Atheist: LOL, yes that would be awesome if it worked like Excel does. Then it would point out the circular referencing with blue lines.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      "Why do you feel yours is the correct god?"

      Well, it gives answers to life's questions, it passes tests on reliability and it is the truth.
      -------
      Amazingly ineffective "answer". When asked "why is your God the correct God", you answer "it is the truth". Huh? Ok, but WHY is it the "truth", and how would you know? Other relgions say the very same thing, WHY are they wrong, and you right? I imagine your answer will be some derivative of "because".

      July 12, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      Topher,

      Why does your perfect god need recognition?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:12 am |
    • *sigh*

      More guidance from life's best instruction manual:

      Q: What should I do when my kid talks back to me?
      A: Stone them.

      Q: Is it ok for me to eat shrimp?
      A1: No, shrimp is an abomination.
      A2: Yes. Don't call anything God made an abomination.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • Topher

      Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      "There are plenty of reasons the bible is true, and that is because the bible says so!"

      Well ... yes! The Bible is a reliable collection of historical docu.ments written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of eyewitnesses who report supernatural events.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • Topher

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "But Topher, what's the point of consigning someone to hell for eternity? There's no purpose–those sent there cannot be rehabilitated and go to heaven. What does sending them there achieve?"

      I know this is a hard answer but it is simply what they deserve. You're right. There's not going to be a rehabilitation. The point isn't to get someone to stop raping people and then go back to their lives. There's only Heaven and Hell at this point. What they did was a rejection of a holy God. If you get sent there (and I really hope you don't) and you're tormented night and day, are you going to say, 'OK, God, I'll be good from now on?' No. You're going to hate Him even more for punishing you. And being good is not the point. You have been offered salvation so you don't have to go there in the first place. And because what God had to do to accomplish this (because He loves YOU) you should love Him right back.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • Topher

      Who invited me?

      "You and I both know that what it acheives is to scare the "faithful" into being good"

      Completely erroneous theology. There are none who are good. None of us deserve to go to Heaven. We've all sinned against God.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So there's no learning, no mercy, no second chance?

      Then if such a god existed, he'd be evil.

      As I don't believe for a moment any such creature exists, it is quite clear that the idea of hell is a threat intended to instill fear in people and manipulate them into behaving according to the rules set forth by the men who wrote the bible.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:25 am |
    • Who invited me?

      topher
      I haven't sinned against god.
      there are no gods except for in the minds of the blind
      I cannot sin against something that does not exist
      Go cast your stones somewhere else zealot

      July 12, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • Topher

      Huebert

      "Is hell a place of torture, or is it simply separation from god?"

      It's a separation, but it is also torture. Just look at the words describing Hell used in the Bible. Torment. Lake of fire. Where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (meaning a lot of pain), where the worm never dies ...

      July 12, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      There's nothing 'erroneous' about it. Those who wrote the bible intended that people adhere to the rules, confess their sins, ask forgiveness, and go and 'sin' no more. It is a means of controlling behavior.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • Colin

      It is impossible trying to make headway with Topher or Chad. They simply cannot see past their blind fiath in their 2,000 year old book. Forget it, one will just end up frustrated.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:30 am |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      The Bible is a reliabel collection of historical docu.ments that was written by eyewitnesses druing the lifetime of other eyewitnesses who reported supernatural events.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • Huebert

      Topher

      What purpose is served by the torture?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • Topher

      No Truth, Just Claims

      "Why does your perfect god need recognition?"

      He deserves it considering what He did for us.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • You Know

      For all who are quoting the old testiment and saying " you can beat your slaves to death according to your Bible"...that was the law of Moses, for the Israelites. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the law of Moses. That stuff was pre Christ, so thus, not 'Christian'. If you want to know what Christians should believe, read the words of Christ.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yeah, Colin, I agree. There's only so much of this jabber I can stand. It makes zero sense to me.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:33 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      The question was not "does he deserve it, Topher. It was 'why does he need it'?

      What possible purpose is served by creating a world, putting people in it, insisting they believe, casting them into hell if they don't? Why bother? Just a cat toy for god?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:36 am |
    • Topher

      Huebert

      "What purpose is served by the torture?"

      I'm not sure there needs to be any purpose other than that is what they deserve. Let's face it. If someone is sent to Hell, they've chosen it themselves. God has provided a way ... He paid our ransom ... so we can all go to Heaven. So if someone is getting punished it is because it is a rejection of God. We all deserve Hell. But God doesn't want that for us and thus died on the cross taking the punishment we all deserve. Why would we not run to the cross as fast as we can?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • fred

      Colin
      You are no different in that all the evidence available supporting the necessity of supernatural is rejected by you without support of any kind. Believers actually have a greater depth of understanding because they understand the natural as you do plus they can grasp the spiritual things of God.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • Life's little instruction book

      Q: What should I do when I see a pagan priest at his altar:
      A: Burn him on his altar to desecrate the altar.

      Q: What should I do if I find a town or city where people believe in a different god?
      A: Burn the town down.

      Q: I know that my coworker cheated on his wife with another coworker. How should I handle this situation?
      A: Kill them both

      Q: I saw someone picking up sticks on the sabbath. Now what?
      A: Stone them.

      Q: I've gone out an conquered a land. What should I do with all of the people that are living here.
      A: Kill them all.
      Q: Even the infants?
      A: What part of 'all' didn't you understand?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:42 am |
    • Life's little instruction book

      @You know – so your god is a moral relativist? Then he cannot, by definition, be perfect. Fail.

      In my bible, your savior claims that he didn't come to replace any laws, and that those laws are to remain until the end of the earth. Do you have an updated copy? Fail.

      Stop cherry picking your bible. Stop excusing your obviously immoral god. Unless you can provide a context in which beating a slave to death is a moral thing. Fail. Try again.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:44 am |
    • Topher

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "What possible purpose is served by creating a world, putting people in it, insisting they believe, casting them into hell if they don't? Why bother? Just a cat toy for god?"

      God created the world and the first people perfect. But we turned against Him, rebelled and sinned and caused the curse. And we've all sinned since then. We all deserve Hell.

      Now, we could argue whether unbelief is a sin or not, but you are sent to Hell because we lie, steal, blaspheme and look with lust. It's our actions that send us there. Even belief won't get you out of Hell. The way it works is your repent of your sins (not just say you are sorry but turn from those sins) and trust Jesus Christ.

      Now, you ask what is the point. The point is because He gets glory. He is glorified because of the creation. He is glorified for man. He is glorified when He saves someone.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:45 am |
    • fred

      Tom Tom
      The reason God bothers is because goodness is the eternal nature of God. That goodness reveals itself through creation that even Einstein called miraculous while standing in awe of it all. Just as the properties of the sun naturally produce heat Gods “properties” naturally produce goodness. Life is a gift for you out of that goodness which you can do with as you please. Your physical existence will end with a soul that has displayed all it truly is. Colin shows a different soul than does Heaven Sent yet both will end up exactly where they belong and have worked a lifetime to refine. Sounds like a good plan to me.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:48 am |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      Topher,

      That did nor answer the question, why does he NEED recognition. Whither he deserves recognition is a completely different question.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      We all deserve Hell
      -------
      What a crock of garbage. More christian inspired guilt. Why do we deserve hell? I look forward to hearing your "answer" on this(not that you are a legitimate authority). I know I don't deserve hell. I'm kind, respectful, compassionate, humble, charitable, appreciate life and enjoy everything in it. If I'm sent to hell simply because I don't follow the same ways you do, then God is most definitely not loving and just, as you portray him.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Who invited me?

      topher
      So he does it for the glory.
      What glory? You are saying He went to all of this trouble, creating people just to worship him, for the glory.
      Glory would not have existed before he started. Glory requires a populous to give the glory.
      Your god has an unbelievable ego. He did all of this just to have people like you to kiss his a$$.
      The fact that you buy into this nonsense shows there really is a sucker born every minute..

      July 12, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Topher

      No Truth, Just Claims

      Are you asking why does He NEED us to recognize Him in order for us to be saved, or are you asking about does He NEED just general recognition?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:52 am |
    • Huebert

      Topher

      "I'm not sure there needs to be any purpose other than that is what they deserve."

      So god tortures for the sake of torture?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      "You are no different in that all the evidence available supporting the necessity of supernatural is rejected by you without support of any kind."

      fred,

      There is no 'good' evidence. Lots of hearsay, assertions and claims though.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      God created the world and the first people perfect. But we turned against Him, rebelled and sinned and caused the curse.
      -------
      LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Ignorance, and stunning lack of logic. Um......if a being is "perfect", then how could that being rebel and sin, and make a wrong choice? That being is perfect, perfect beings don't make mistakes. Can you really not see the very basic illogical nature of your statement? Hilarious, though, thanks for the laugh. Keep 'em coming.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      Topher,

      I really makes no difference which of those it is. He on some level either needs our recognition in order to 'stay his hand' or he needs it for some other reason, whatever it is how can you claim that definition of god is perfect?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:57 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you imaginary being created all the universe so it could bow down to him and so he could send them to hell for any infraction of his petty rules for no reason other than he deems them to be 'deserving'?

      You can have him.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:58 am |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      I know I don't deserve hell. I'm kind, respectful, compassionate, humble, charitable, appreciate life and enjoy everything in it."

      How many times in your life have you told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? Used 'OM-!"? Looked at someone and had a se.xual thought? This is only four of the 10 Commandments. I dont' think we even need to look at the other six. If you broke any of these you've sinned against God and thus deserve Hell.

      "If I'm sent to hell simply because I don't follow the same ways you do, then God is most definitely not loving and just, as you portray him."

      This isn't about following as I do. It's about breaking the laws. But we've all broken them and you've been offered forgiveness. There's the love. If you reject it, that's your fault, not God's.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
    • fred

      No Truth
      The evidence for or against God based on acceptable scientific evidence is the same. The scientific evidence for causation is overwhelming and cannot be dismissed except by one with a bias against a personal God. That bias is referred to as being spiritually blinded and the blinders are not lack of knowledge but rejection of God.
      Once an unbiased individual acknowledges the real possibility of God (remote is it may be) we move into theology to explain what science cannot explain.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      It's called free will.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • la

      Nope hell is the absence of God. God does not send people to hell. People choose to go to hell by not choosing God. 🙂

      July 12, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • fred

      Tom Tom
      No, not so you or anyone bow down as that would be on the opposite end of goodness. That would be the North Korean version of god.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Fred
      So what you are saying is that once we get to the end of knowledge, then we turn to theology
      In other words. I don't know so there must be a god
      ignorance =God
      You are right Fred
      When we don't know something, we make up gods to explain them ...good point

      July 12, 2012 at 12:06 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, can it, fred. Bowing down, obeying, glorifying, praising, all the same crap. And Topher STILL hasn't answered the question as to WHY your deity NEEDS humans to do any of it.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      This is only four of the 10 Commandments. I dont' think we even need to look at the other six. If you broke any of these you've sinned against God and thus deserve Hell.
      ---------–
      You are endlessly entertaining. I do feel bad getting a laugh at the expense of someone's shallow intellect. Laughing at someone's handicap is always inappropriate, so for that I do apologize. Perhaps I do deserve hell for finding humor in another human being's idiocy. You mention the 10 Commandments. What of the billions of human beings in this world that have no idea what the 10 Commandments are, because they've never been exposed to the teachings of christianity? Guess they lucked out, they must not deserve hell.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:09 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      You claim that there are no good people, and that all deserve hell but for the salvation granted through Christ. Do you believe that EVERY person who was born before Jesus came is in hell then?

      July 12, 2012 at 12:09 pm |
    • Topher

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I still don't understand your question. Can you point to something in scripture and maybe that will help me understand what you are asking.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • Tallulah13

      I may be outing myself as a former Star Trek geek, but topher reminds me of that episode with "Landru"' where all the people are brainwashed zombies.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      Madtown
      It's called free will.
      ---–
      Again, you called the first humans, as created by God, "perfect". A perfect being would not make a mistake. A perfect being would be incapable of sin. But, you also suggest these first beings sinned and turned against God. That would mean they wouldn't be perfect. So, which is it? Answer the question, or stop asserting yourself as some kind of authority in these areas.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
    • Huebert

      Fred

      Their is absolutely no evidence supporting god's existence. In light of this fact the reasonable assumption is that god does not exist.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      "What of the billions of human beings in this world that have no idea what the 10 Commandments are, because they've never been exposed to the teachings of christianity?"

      You have a conscience. You don't need the Bible to tell you lying is wrong. You lie and you feel guilty. Same with all the other Commandments.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Topher

      "I'm not sure there needs to be any purpose other than that is what they deserve."

      So god tortures for the sake of torture?

      July 12, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      "The scientific evidence for causation is overwhelming and cannot be dismissed"

      fred,

      Causation does not require a "god", and more specifically your definition of god. There is no evidence the universe was 'caused'. You are just making an argument from ignorance.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:17 pm |
    • Lemark

      Topher,
      I appreciate your responses to the harsh crowd here at CNN. Your responses are candid and you don't dodge any bullets and I appreciate that. This question is serious from someone who does actually go to chruch.

      You answer questions with certainty, and certainty is something that i have issues with when I speak of matters of faith. Becuase Fiath and Knowledge are not the same thing, and are often mistaken for one another.

      Examples
      I know that I am alive, I now that I will die.
      I believe there is a God an that my actions here on Earth will have repercussions on what occurs when I die.
      However, I do not know that God exists, that is why I have faith.

      Do you have faith in God, or do you KNOW there is a God.

      I feel this is a very hard question for those of faith to answer and is a powerful tool to communicate to those who choose to not have faith in their lves. It also goes to the cornerstone of "free will". Ie, you do not have free will to choose what you KNOW, you do have free will to choose what you believe.

      Thanks.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
    • Blunt Object

      Who was Cain afraid of when he said Gen 4:14 “Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.” The only humans on the planet at that point were Adam, Eve, Cain, and the recently slain Abel, so who was going to slay Cain?

      Also, where did he find his wife mentioned in Gen 4:17 “And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.” Was she also his sister?

      July 12, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      "You claim that there are no good people, and that all deserve hell but for the salvation granted through Christ. Do you believe that EVERY person who was born before Jesus came is in hell then?"

      No. The people in the OT knew about the coming of Christ. The prophecies of Christ go back as far as Genesis chapter 3. So they had faith in that. For instance, Luke 13:28 says "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

      So we know people before Christ walked the earth are in Heaven.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      Lust is only a bad thing according to religions. If you've looked at another person, and felt lusty thoughts, it doesn't mean you're evil or deserve hell, IT MEANS YOU"RE HUMAN. IT's a good thing we have those thoughts, or the species would have died off a REALLY long time ago.

      The major, glaring, I still don't see how you don't get this, whole in every argument you make is that these things are only bad ACCORDING TO YOUR NARROW VIEW. I can say "God fellates goats" all day long, and never commit blasphemy, because I don't believe in "God". Many of the commandments don't mean anything outside of your narrow view. So people who don't follow that view, can't break those rules, and don't inherently deserve hell. You're allow yoru closed off thought process to taint your perception of how other people think, and it doesn't work that way.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      You have a conscience. You don't need the Bible to tell you lying is wrong. You lie and you feel guilty. Same with all the other Commandments.
      -------
      On this point, I agree and you are correct. Of course, this also means that we don't need man-made religion to do right by God. To use the native American example, native Americans living in North America in the time of Christ never heard of the 10 Commandments. There are millions of people on this planet today who have also never heard of them. Those people likely feel guilty when telling a lie. Your religion, and your bible, are not necessary. They are relevant to you, but not to everyone. This is ok, and it should also mean that you stop your condescending judgment of others, based on your idea of religion, because your idea of religion is not relevant to everyone.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:25 pm |
    • BRC

      Okay, so you will agree that there were people that didn't directly worship Jesus that are in heaven (make whatever claims you want about interpreting early scripture to fortell the coming of Christ, Abraham and the Isrealites never prayed to him, they worshippeh Yahweh). Do you believe that the Jews of today who also do not believe in the divinity of Jesus will get into heaven?

      July 12, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Topher

      Describe God.

      let me be clear. I want a description of your God...what he/she/it actually is....not what God does or has done....not what God needs or wants....I'm not asking for a resume of God's accomplishments but a means by which if God were to appear to anyone they would immediately recognize what he/she/it was.
      I'm betting you can't. Further isn't it strange that you believers are rock solid clear on what goes on in the mind of your God but you can't even approach describing in the tiniest detail his true nature?

      July 12, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
    • Topher

      Lemark

      Thanks for the kind words. I don't claim to know all the answers, but I try to answer the best I can.

      "You answer questions with certainty, and certainty is something that i have issues with when I speak of matters of faith. Becuase Fiath and Knowledge are not the same thing, and are often mistaken for one another."

      I can speak with certainty because I have the truth in God's word. Like I said earlier, we can trust the Bible. Read 2 Peter 1:16-21 and really think on what Peter is saying here. The Bible is made up of a reliable collection of historical doc.uments written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (meaning if one guy was lying someone else would call him on it) and they report supernatural events. One of the things mentioned in this passage is that Peter actually heard the voice of God. Pretty cool, huh?

      "Do you have faith in God, or do you KNOW there is a God."

      If I have to choose one I'd say I KNOW there is a God. Let me give you an example in the difference between faith and knowing. A man tells his young son not to touch the heater found in his room because it is hot and he will be hurt if he touches it. The boy trusts his dad and so has faith that what he was told is true. But as kids are wont to do, he must see for himself. So as soon as dad leaves the room he goes over and places his hands on the heater. In an instant his flesh is scalded. He has now moved out of the realm of faith and into knowledge that it is hot. Now the Bible talks about being "born again." Jesus actually said we MUST be born again. That's where we move from a life of sin into a life for God. And I think this is where we move from just meer faith to knowledge.

      I'm glad you are going to church. Has anyone explained the Gospel to you yet? That to be saved you must repent (not just say you are sorry for your sins, but to turn away from them and stop voluntarily sinning) and trust that Christ can do what He said He could do.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      have to choose one I'd say I KNOW there is a God.
      ---–
      The only correct answer to this question is "I don't know". Once you start asserting you "know" things that can't be proven and are unknowable, you invalidate yourself. Of course, no worries for you, you invalidated yourself here a long time ago.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • BRC

      Topher,
      Some friendly advice. You are woefully out-matched in these discussions, whether you see it or not, and have a snowball's chance in your hell of making a point that actually PROVES a point of religion over the arguments you're being faced with by atheists. SO, when a fellow believer comes a long and offers you some good constructive criticism for your consideration, DON'T pick a fight with them too by asking if they really think they're Christian enough. Take it for what it is, a beleiver reaching out a hand in aid to one who they believe needs help, as Jesus would, and go back to making your circular arguments against us.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:55 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      "and is a powerful tool to communicate to those who choose to not have faith in their lves"

      Lemark,

      Faith is 'believing you know something you don't know' so yes those of us without faith don't act like we know something we don't. Faith is not a virtue, if it was then the statement "believing you know something you don't know is a virtue" would make sense.

      Topher does dodge bullets, he just stops answering questions when they become uncomfortable to him. If you will notice above I asked him a couple of questions and he just stopped answering. This is the same as any person who claims religious knowledge does, when they run out of answers the answers become "god is mysterious" or other such non-answer.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
    • Topher

      Hey, BRC

      "Lust is only a bad thing according to religions. If you've looked at another person, and felt lusty thoughts, it doesn't mean you're evil or deserve hell, IT MEANS YOU"RE HUMAN. IT's a good thing we have those thoughts, or the species would have died off a REALLY long time ago."

      It shows how high God's standard is. He even knows and will judge you on your though-life. It's an impure thought. You should only look at your wife in that regard.

      "I can say "God fellates goats" all day long, and never commit blasphemy, because I don't believe in "God"."

      Your unbelief doesn't render something untrue. If I don't believe in gravity and jump off a roof, I'm still gonna go 'splat!' So you will still be held accountable by God if you blaspheme Him.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • Kenrick Benjamin

      Topher- I don't have a question but I have an understanding, people go to hell because of the same reason people go to jail they broke the law, the reason why God want you to recognize him is so that you will know from whence everything came. AS for Adam and Eve the were working on there perfection when they broke the commandment. You have to remember that after God created the things within the EARTH in 6 days he saw that it was GOOD not Perfect. The question then arise how does one work on perfection if the are perfect. Example Jesus Christ he was perfect, yet still he was tempted.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      "Do you believe that the Jews of today who also do not believe in the divinity of Jesus will get into heaven?"

      No. You have to understand the Gospel to see why. We all deserve Hell and no one deserves Heaven. The only way to go to Heaven is to repent and trust in Christ. His work on the cross paid for our sins, so if you don't have the savior, you don't have salvation. Those guys in the OT who are now in Heaven may not have known who Jesus the man was, but they knew what the Messiah was going to do for them and their faith was credited to them on that fact. Check out Psalm 22. It's a spot-on depiction of Jesus death written 1000 years before He came and long before we even had crucifixions. If you are a Jew today and don't hold that Jesus was the Messiah, then you are rejecting him. Plain as that. Those that are still looking to the future for Messiah to come ... that would be a false Messiah.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
    • Ezra

      Careful Topher. If being sentenced to hell is the punishment for sinning then we would all go to hell. If asking God for forgiveness is the key to avoiding this punishment then all Christians are going to heaven. I am a Christian, and yet my faith tells me that there are many atheists that, due to their good works, that would be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven, more so than supposed Christians who molest children for instance (see the Catholic church). Preaching from the bible, which was written by man (yes, I've heard the argument it is the word of God...still looks like a book to me) has it's pitfalls. The true word of God is written in your heart and soul...the One True Law. A balance of morality and faith is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven. The One True God is forgiving, even to those who have never heard his word, not through their own fault but for simple lack of hearing.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Topher

      I asked you what purpose of god's is served by torturing people in hell and you responded "I'm not sure there needs to be any purpose other than that is what they deserve."

      Are you saying that god is torturing without need?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • Fred Evil

      "So you will still be held accountable by God if you blaspheme Him."
      Proof? Citation?
      Sorry, the Bible is NOT an acceptable reference, I will need a recent, verified, sighting, and Jesus' signature, in triplicate.
      Don't have it? Get back to me when you do, until then he's just a figment of a lot of people's imaginations.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      I appreciate the advice, but I don't think I'm out-matched. I've answered the questions as best I could. Some I don't have answers for. That's ok. I'm still learning (as it's a life-long process.) I don't know who you think I've picked a fight with. I'm just answering questions. If it seems I'm getting angry with someone I apologize. I certainly don't mean for it to come across that way.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:11 pm |
    • Topher

      Kenrick Benjamin

      Fair enough. You're right. I should have said God said it was 'good.' Thanks.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
    • Jerry McLeppo

      Oh cool! Topher dropped by for his masochism session!

      July 12, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      Now you are twisting things to serve your own explanations. Psalm 22 has nothing to do with Jesus. It is written by David, it's in the first person, and it speaks directly to how the lord saved him (it's one of his many whiny psalms). Abraham never spoke of or sought a messiah, he was a schosen man by GOD directly. You're attempting to infuse beliefs of the NT into the OT, and it's not substantiated.

      Be that as it may, you believe the some of the Jews before Jesus are in heaven, maybe because they were hand picked, but now all of them after Jesus are going to hell. so, why didn't he send a messiah sooner? So even though there are jews now that are doing EXACTLY what the jews of the past did, they are going to hell; does that make sense to you? IS there some way that this isn't "God" changing his mind?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • Topher

      Ezra

      "Careful Topher. If being sentenced to hell is the punishment for sinning then we would all go to hell."

      That's exactly what the Bible says we all deserve.

      "If asking God for forgiveness is the key to avoiding this punishment then all Christians are going to heaven."

      It's more than just asking forgiveness. You must repent and trust Christ. If you ask a judge to let you go because you are sorry for what you did, he'd say you should be sorry and that you still have to pay for your crime.

      "I am a Christian, and yet my faith tells me that there are many atheists that, due to their good works, that would be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven, more so than supposed Christians who molest children for instance (see the Catholic church)."

      Good works will NOT get you into Heaven. It is only by grace we are saved. If you are really contending we have to do good things then you are saying what Christ did was not enough. Christians who molest children are not Christians at all.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      "Some I don't have answers for"

      Topher,

      It is not that you don't have answers for them, it is that your answers contradict each other and are therefore illogical. Are you goning to answer my question as to why your "perfect" god needs recognition?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • *facepalm*

      How is it that a perfect, omnipotent being is jealous?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • Topher

      So what if David wrote it?

      Let's take a look at a few lines from Psalm 22 ...
      "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ... same line Jesus says on the cross, referencing this psalm.
      "But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people." ... The people in the crowds were yelling to 'crucify him!"
      "All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.' ... While on the cross they were asking if He is God, why doesn't He save himself?
      "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint ..." ... water and blood poured from his side when struck with the spear. Also, despite his wounds (nails) none of his bones were broken
      "My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws ..." ... He thurst.
      "For dogs have compassed me ..." ... Romans
      "They pierced my hands and feet ..." ... no explanation needed
      "They part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture." ... the guards did exactly this.

      How is this not about Jesus?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Blunt Object

      @Topher
      I’m gonna repost this because you must have missed the first one.

      Who was Cain afraid of when he said Gen 4:14 “Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.” The only humans on the planet at that point were Adam, Eve, Cain, and the recently slain Abel, so who was going to slay Cain?

      Also, where did he find his wife mentioned in Gen 4:17 “And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.” Was she also his sister?

      July 12, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Topher,

      you wrote: Let's take a look at a few lines from Psalm 22 ...
      "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ... same line Jesus says on the cross, referencing this psalm.

      I'd chalk that up to either a lack of imagination, plagiarism or both on the part of the Evangelist.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • Topher

      Blunt Object

      It doesn't actually say they were the only people. They were just the only ones mentioned. There could have been tons of other children by Adam and Eve. It depends also how many years have pas.sed by. There could have been a couple generations for all we know.

      "Also, where did he find his wife mentioned in Gen 4:17 “And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.” Was she also his sister?"

      Likely. Although like I say above, it could have been a cousin. Just depends on how many children Adam and Eve had and how many generations there would have been at this point.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Topher

      I see you've chosen to ignore my question. Fair enough...you couldn't possibly answer it anyway. But in some of your other posts you seem to rely heavily on prophesy. Seriously.. do you really think that stories in the Old Testament are validated in the New Testament prophesy claims? The writers of the New Testament were very much aware of what was written in the Old Testament and went out of their way to bend the new scripture to fit their purposes.
      For instance the scripture in Isaiah 7:14 is accepted as prophesy of Jesus' birth in Matthew 1:23. But the story in Isaiah was about a contemporary in Isaiah's time, not about something that would occur 600 years later. Further the hebrew word for "young maiden"was mistranslated(on purpose) by the author of Matthew to become "virgin". In short any part of a story from the OT that is said to be a prophesy of something of the NT was intentionally done to further the mystique of the new religion(Christianity). Also how can one take seriously any claim of prophesy that is only contained within the texts of one book(Bible) when that whole book has been constructed (on purpose) to promote itself as authoritative when it comes to revealing God. Seriously...God if he exists wouldn't be so dumb as to rely on man written script to reveal himself. He would know it would be misinterpreted, mistranslated, edited, and for most of it's history completely out of reach for the illiterate masses. No....more likely it is the elite of the church...the priests and preachers of all stripes who have molded and shaped the Word to suit their needs to manage and manipulate their flocks.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      How is that not about Jesus?

      Just off the top of my head – BECAUSE HE SAYS IT'S ABOUT HIMSELF. Just because you can link a book that was written AFTER this one to words in its predecessor does not mean everything is about Jesus. He writes in the first person, he uses personal pronouns, he makes absolutely no allusion to a messiah, to Imanuel, to the Christ, or to Jesus. It it was a divine work fortelling of Jesus inspeired by "God" I'm pretty sure he'd used the right name, not I. The only possible reason for you to tie this to Jesus is because you want to. And that's all good and well, but it's just personal opinion and speculation when you do that. There's factual, or Scriptural basis for doing so, and it's an insult to the traditions and beliefs of the religion that YOURS is built on; without which, yours wouldn't even exist.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • Topher

      AtheistSteve

      "I see you've chosen to ignore my question."

      Did you ask me a question? I don't remember seeing your name. Oh well. I'll try to answer these questions ...

      "But in some of your other posts you seem to rely heavily on prophesy. Seriously.. do you really think that stories in the Old Testament are validated in the New Testament prophesy claims?"

      It's not like it's just one or two prophecies. It's more than 100 that have been fulfilled and more to come. For instance, let's say I said to you "I've come to give you a prophecy ... you will eat Sugar Smacks for breakfast." You'd say to me, "So what, I always eat Sugar Smacks for breakfast." But then I follow up with "You will then take a shower and put on your striped shirt and khakis and then read a magazine before you go to work. The magazine will be Men's Health because your wife picked up the wrong one from the store. Then you will go to work and there will be a surprise pizza party ..." and so on and so forth. The more details I give the more validity I have to my prophecy.

      "The writers of the New Testament were very much aware of what was written in the Old Testament and went out of their way to bend the new scripture to fit their purposes."

      Yes, but as atheists like to remind me it was written by man. And if it were only man making up something they'd have been bound to mess up something somewhere. They didn't.

      "For instance the scripture in Isaiah 7:14 is accepted as prophesy of Jesus' birth in Matthew 1:23. But the story in Isaiah was about a contemporary in Isaiah's time, not about something that would occur 600 years later."

      They may have thought this person was coming soon but it is blatantly about the Messiah.

      " Also how can one take seriously any claim of prophesy that is only contained within the texts of one book(Bible) when that whole book has been constructed (on purpose) to promote itself as authoritative when it comes to revealing God."

      Well, it's not just one book. It's 66 books. And written by 30 or 40 authors (I don't remember the number at the moment.) It was also written over about 1500 years. So it's consistancy in telling one story and not messing it up is pretty amazing.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • *facepalm*

      @Topher – what does a perfect, all-powerful god get jealous about?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • just sayin

      Topher still has not established the authority and credibility of the OT. Topher when you are backed into a corner and forced to face uneasy questions you ignore. You are not here to discuss rather declare and witness.

      You are dishonest with yourself and others here. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<unchristian

      July 12, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • Topher

      *facepalm*

      Do you as.sume that jealousy is always bad?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      No Topher....you didn't understand.
      Isaiah was talking about a woman who was alive when he was...that's what contemporary means. And so what if there are 66 or more authors spanning 1500 or even 5000 years time. If they are all referencing the same texts and adding their own little additions to it. You seem to think these different authors were all writing without knowledge of what was already written...they weren't...they knew exactly what they were adding to. That's why it's so full f prophesy (apparently) because it was created that way...bit by bit....passage by passage. The problems become apparent when the contradictions and errors are shown which I did with the Jesus's birth one. Incidentally if no virgin birth occurred (which is what appears when you carefully look to original hebrew scriptures) then doesn't the entire pillar of Christian faith crumble?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • *facepalm*

      @Topher – does it matter? What does an all-powerful being have to be jealous about? How is this a hard question?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • Topher

      just sayin

      "Topher still has not established the authority and credibility of the OT."

      The OT is established because Jesus taught that those books are true. So if the NT is true, so is the OT. Of course I'm sure you're about to say I haven't established the NT is true, so ...

      July 12, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • Guess What

      Topher: "So it's [The Bible's] consistancy in telling one story and not messing it up is pretty amazing."

      The books that we see in today's Bible were chosen by a church committee(s) in the 4th century. Only the ones which toed the party line were chosen. Many other ancient writings were rejected, often after quite bitter debates. Of course it's consistent... when you choose to include only the books which you agree with.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
    • Topher

      *facepalm*

      He is jealous because despite what He has done for us, we reject Him, give our love to other things even worship other gods.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • Topher

      Guess What

      "The books that we see in today's Bible were chosen by a church committee(s) in the 4th century. Only the ones which toed the party line were chosen. Many other ancient writings were rejected, often after quite bitter debates. Of course it's consistent... when you choose to include only the books which you agree with."

      Doesn't that make sense that those that didn't "toe the line" were thrown out? If we are holding to God having inspired the scriptures and another book making that claim shows up and is completely contradictory to the other books that that would mean it's an obvious fake? Yeah, the books were all put to the test. If they failed they were thrown out. These books had to be written by a witness or a witness' contemporarie. Because of that we also know they had to be written within a certain time frame. So books like Gospel of Thomas, which was written something like 180 years too late, could not have been written by Thomas.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      Topher,

      A perfect god by definition would not need anything, why does he need recognition?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • BRC

      Topher,
      How were teh books tested? How does one confirm that a book written before you were born, or written over a hundred years after the events being described, is actually "inspired by god"? Was the entire Council of Nicea being simultaneously divinely inspired?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • Topher

      No Truth, Just Claims

      "A perfect god by definition would not need anything, why does he need recognition?"

      I'm might sure I would say He NEEDS recognition. He would exist if not another person ever came to Christ. It's not like He's some lonely being up there NEEDING us to talk with Him. It is US that NEED Him.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • *facepalm*

      @Topher, sorry, no. You described something that would cause either anger or sadness. Not jealousy. To be jealous one must desire something that someone else has. Are you saying that god wants to worship other gods? That god doesn't have the freedom to worship other gods. What, specifically, that we have does god want?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      Topher,

      That is a non-answer. Either god punishes those who don't recognize him for no reason and therefore is not perfect or he needs peoples recognition and is not perfect, which is it?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      "How were teh books tested? How does one confirm that a book written before you were born, or written over a hundred years after the events being described, is actually "inspired by god"? Was the entire Council of Nicea being simultaneously divinely inspired?"

      Well, a book written a hundred years after the events would be thrown out. It would be highly unlikely that anyone old enough to witness the events and understand them would still be alive to write about it.

      No. Nicea was not inspired.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Topher

      *facepalm*

      "You described something that would cause either anger or sadness. Not jealousy"

      Fine. Why don't you just tell me where you are going with this?

      "Are you saying that god wants to worship other gods?"

      Absolutely not.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • *facepalm*

      Where am I going with this? In your bible, it clearly states, in several locations, that your god is a jealous god. How do you reconcile such statements with a god that is, supposedly, all powerful. What is it that an all powerful being wants that others have?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      That presents a problem, as some of the books of the bible may not have been written until over 100 years after hsi death. And if the Council wasn't divinely inspired, how do you know they got they're interpretation of the works correct? How aboult the other poeple that over the course of the first 300 years of the religion determined which books would or wouldn't be used?

      OR, you could just explain what the test procedure is? If a man comes to the press tomorrow, saying that he's been inspired by the word of "God" and has new words of "Gods" glory to share, how do we prove if he's telling the truth or not?

      July 12, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • Lemark

      Topher,

      I think that one of the main reasons that those of faith have issues communicating with seculars (IE, almost everyone else posting here) is this issue of faith and knowlege. I think that, althought it is not at all well communicated by most, that there is a serious issue that should be addressed in this area.

      Thomas Aquinas did some good writing in this area, and if nothing else, it is a fantastic read. I recomend it.

      However I think you do fall into a few traps of self referencing logic of knowing there is a God becuase you have the truth of Gods words. I don't think that there is anything wrong with it, but you have to see the inherint flaw of referencing Gods truth to people who start off the discussion not believing in God.

      It's simply not an effective means of communicaiton, and quite honestly, if you go around talking this way, your not going to get many converts (and perhaps that isn't the goal).

      One of the most poweful revelations I have ever had in religion was admitting the fact that I didn't KNOW there was a God. I choose to believe there is a God. That is insanely hard to do because it means that you spend time and energy for something that you dont' "know".

      But certainty is not in the nature of faith. Faith moves past this and people choose faith IN SPITE of facts that would point othewise. No one likes this, but it is the nature of faith. I belive in God becuase my life is better because I believe in God. I don't have to logic my way to God, I simply believe.

      Every aspect of proof or devotion to any God starts with that simple truth. You believe. Without faith, all of the powerful emotions of truth and revelation simply don't exist.

      This is also important for free will. If there were REALLY proof of God, and there were proof that if you didn't believe in him that you would go to hell... would that REALLY be free will? No, not at all, that would be duress. Anyone with any form of inteligence would be in chruch every darn Sunday. Cause eternity is a really long time.

      But that isn't true. There is no proof, that is the core of what faith and free will are about.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Well, it gives answers to life's questions, it passes tests on reliability and it is the truth."

      All subjective valuations

      July 12, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      "That presents a problem, as some of the books of the bible may not have been written until over 100 years after hsi death."

      Not the case at all. The last book written was Revelation. And I'm not just saying that because it's the last in the Bible. Revelation was written by John and thus could not have been written 100 years later. We know that book was written between 94-96 AD, so somewhere around 60 years after Christ's death.

      "And if the Council wasn't divinely inspired, how do you know they got they're interpretation of the works correct?"

      All the books were tested. They had to pass the tests.

      "How aboult the other poeple that over the course of the first 300 years of the religion determined which books would or wouldn't be used?"

      Because the books like the Gospels were written pretty much right away. The church members knew the writers personally and knew what was being claimed. So those books were obviously held as scripture. The questions would come later with the appearances of new books.

      OR, you could just explain what the test procedure is? If a man comes to the press tomorrow, saying that he's been inspired by the word of "God" and has new words of "Gods" glory to share, how do we prove if he's telling the truth or not?

      July 12, 2012 at 3:04 pm |
    • Topher

      Lemark

      "However I think you do fall into a few traps of self referencing logic of knowing there is a God becuase you have the truth of Gods words. I don't think that there is anything wrong with it, but you have to see the inherint flaw of referencing Gods truth to people who start off the discussion not believing in God."

      Oh, I realize this. I used to speak this way ... using "I think" and "IF", stuff like that. But I got called more names then and told I don't know anything and have no authority that I'm just going to speak the truth and not water it down. Take it or leave it.

      "One of the most poweful revelations I have ever had in religion was admitting the fact that I didn't KNOW there was a God. I choose to believe there is a God. That is insanely hard to do because it means that you spend time and energy for something that you dont' "know"."

      Yeah, but dude you realize the Bible says we can not only KNOW there's a God but also KNOW Him personally.

      Would you say you've been born again?

      July 12, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
    • No Truth, Just Claims

      "I belive in God becuase my life is better because I believe in God."

      Lemark,

      That statement says nothing about whither it is true or not, I realize you have already admitted you don't "know" for certian but believing something is true because it makes you feel good opens the door to believing many things that may not be true but are comforting. Beliefs do not exist in a vacuum, they have consequences.

      As to your statement on free will, the bible is full of examples of god supposedly giving "proof" of his existence to people directly, did god therefore take away those peoples free will? Your point would be that he did.

      July 12, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • Madtown

      Lemark
      This is also important for free will. If there were REALLY proof of God, and there were proof that if you didn't believe in him that you would go to hell... would that REALLY be free will? No, not at all
      -----–
      Actually, I think that would be the epitome of free will. If there are well established choices, and the consequence of each choice is known and proven, then free will gives us complete power to make an informed choice, because we know what the result will be.

      July 12, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • Topher

      Sorry, I missed this part ...

      "OR, you could just explain what the test procedure is? If a man comes to the press tomorrow, saying that he's been inspired by the word of "God" and has new words of "Gods" glory to share, how do we prove if he's telling the truth or not

      I personally would use the same verse that shoots down Mormonism and Islam.

      Rev. 22 ... "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

      This means you can't add anything after this. So new "revelations" aren't coming. The next thing to happen on the prophetic timeline is Christ's return.

      July 12, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
    • BRC

      Topher,
      "All the books were tested. They had to pass the tests"

      You keep saying that word... I don't think it means what you think it means. WHAT TESTS? You allude to them but have yet to describe a single one. Do you not know what tehy are but you assume there was some sort of test? And I garauntee that over the course of 300 years there were people involved in choosing books that never had anything to do with the original 12 apostles, since most people didn't even live to be 60. Also, and this is purely from a quick look up, some of the books may have been written up to 120 years after Christs death (not many but a few).

      July 12, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      This means you can't add anything after this.
      ----
      Unfortunate then, that changes are made all the time, with the release of new versions and translations.

      July 12, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      You do realize, that if that person REALLY did have the word of "God", you're really going to make "God" mad. Are you saying that jsut because of one line in a book written by humans, "God" creator of teh universe, can send a message to the people he supposedly created and loves? That's silly.

      Have you sconsidered this- as you are so keen to point out, the books of the Bible were all originally written seperately, adn later compiled (MUCH later). Wouldn't it make more sense that the John who wrote Revelations (supposedly while living in isolation), was saying that noone could anything to THAT book, not to the entire collection of books that at his time didn't even exist yet?

      IN that case, there is no reason to believe that "God" couldn't send another messager. Of course, he's supposedly omnipotent, so there shouldn't be anything at all that can stop him, and he's already shown that he's willing to change his mind, so what if he was sending word taht things are different, that at the rate we're going "Jesus" isn't coming back? Have you ever considered any of that?

      July 12, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      "You keep saying that word... I don't think it means what you think it means. WHAT TESTS? You allude to them but have yet to describe a single one."

      I've told you a couple. Must have been written by a witness or his contemporary (Luke) and must have been written within the lives of the witnesses (so it could be disputed if it needed to be). There are others, but I'm afraid I don't have any more time today. I've got to start getting ready for work. Perhaps we can talk about it tomorrow?

      July 12, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      "Unfortunate then, that changes are made all the time, with the release of new versions and translations."

      I don't know what you mean by "new versions" but translations from the original into a modern or another language is not changing the Bible. It's the same ... not adding anything new.

      July 12, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
    • Topher

      BRC

      "You do realize, that if that person REALLY did have the word of "God", you're really going to make "God" mad. Are you saying that jsut because of one line in a book written by humans, "God" creator of teh universe, can send a message to the people he supposedly created and loves? That's silly."

      Writen by man but inspired by God. So ultimately you can trust it as God's word. So in one way you could say He could send a new word, because He's God. But He is saying the canon is closed and thus that there's nothing left to reveal until Christ's coming.

      "Have you sconsidered this- as you are so keen to point out, the books of the Bible were all originally written seperately, adn later compiled (MUCH later). Wouldn't it make more sense that the John who wrote Revelations (supposedly while living in isolation), was saying that noone could anything to THAT book, not to the entire collection of books that at his time didn't even exist yet?"

      Yes, I have considered this. But I don't think that's what he's saying when you look at the entire passage in context. Here's what John MacArthur, in his study Bible, says about these passages. "Jesus offers extended testimony on the authority and finality of the prophecy. He commissioned John to write it, but he was its author. These are not the first such warnings (cf. Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6; Jer. 26:2). These warnings against altering the biblical text represent the close of the NT canon. Anyone who tampers with the truth by attempting to falsify, mitigate, alter, or mininterpret it will incur the judgments described in these verses."

      So basically, this is Jesus, through John, closing the canon.

      July 12, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
    • Madtown

      Topher
      I don't know what you mean by "new versions" but translations from the original into a modern or another language is not changing the Bible. It's the same ... not adding anything new.
      ----
      New versions and translations both bring changes/additions, as new wording is utilized. Some words just don't translate language to language and maitain the same meaning. I know you don't like it, but this equals change and editing.

      July 12, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
  11. Rational Libertaian

    Scientology to Catholicism

    Out of the frying pan.....

    July 12, 2012 at 10:18 am |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      2 sides of the same coin.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:23 am |
    • Lemark

      I don't completely disagree here but...

      Catholocism is a serious religion. THere is a lot of good and a lot of bad stuff about it, but you can see that there is a serious effort to have a religion. You may not appreciate it, but a whole lot of effort went into consolidating all of the differnet writings into the Bible. Now, you can poke holes at the folks who consolidated it and say that they had motives, but these were histoirical events that folks wrote about. That does NOT mean that the supernatural points were true, but you can at least match up many of the historical events to actual things that happened.

      Scientology was created by a Sci Fi Author... it's a straight up con game. Hubbard said that if you wanted to make money, then you should make up a religion BEFORE he made up a religion.

      So, if you just want to say all religion is bunk... sure. However if you seek spirituality and religion is your vehicle, Scientology is not even trying to be serious. It's like something made up by Penn and Teller trying to come up with the most insane group of things for people to believe in.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Lemark
      To people within scientology ( a bad misnomer by the way)...it is a serious religion.
      You dismissiing it out of hand is simple arrogance on your part.
      It is silly...yes. it is just to control people...yes. its long term is to get money and secure its future yes.
      All of the above ALSO apply to the "serious" religion of the catholics.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      The only real difference is that L.Ron Hubbard started his roughly 2000 years later.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
    • Fred Evil

      More like:
      Six of one...

      ANY organized religion today is a sham. There MAY be a supreme being, but I guarantee NONE of the mainstream religions today is even close. Every one falls down almost immediately as soon as you subject it to the scientific method in even the most tangential manner.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
    • Lemark

      Who invited –

      I am going to have to disagree there. LIke I said, there is a whole lot of silly in just about any religion. But I reserve the right to use my own judgement to point out the difference between con artists and those who are attempting to devote themselves to an actual faith.

      You use your own judgment on that, and I will use mine.

      My perception of this issue is not vased on the believability or the actual truth of the message. It is the intent of the people that started things up. Those that started Scientology were setting up a money making machine. Those that started christianity were almost certainly not.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Lemark
      You are right you can use your judgement to determine which are the con- artists.
      I have not known any scientologists who have been accused of molestiing children? nor of hiding the fact?
      I have not known any scientologists that send crusaders out with a convert or die command.
      I have not known the scientologists that torture or maim because something was said and labeled as herecy...
      You do your research, and you tell me which one is more beneficial....I'll be waiting

      July 12, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
  12. Bill Deacon

    No one here and possibly no one except Ms. Holmes can know the journey she has been on. I don't believe the media driven positioning of TC as some kind of evil overlord and I almost never support divorce. But, as a Catholic, I can say welcome home Katie. May the Peace and Love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always. As to Tom, there is always reconciliation.

    July 12, 2012 at 8:53 am |
    • Who invited me?

      yeah Kate...I've asked some Leprachans to watch over you too.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:04 am |
    • catholic engineer

      @Who Invited Me " Leprachans" ya say. Perhaps putting down the Irish whiskey and picking up a theology book would be a good start, Who.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:11 am |
    • Who invited me?

      picking up a theology book would only be a good start down the road of ignorance

      July 12, 2012 at 9:16 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      He can't reoncile with her if she doesn't drink the Xenu flavoured Kool-Aid.
      TC's religion requires him to "diconnect" (read: shun) suppressive persons.
      In the early stages of recruitment, Scientologists will tell you that their religion is fully compatible with all other faiths.
      By the time you get to the guano insane parts of it, you've all ready invested vast amounts of time and money, not to mention limited your social circle to include only other Scientologists.
      Hubbard wrote instructions to the "clergy" advising them to find as much dirt as possible on converts – most especially tresspasses of a criminal nature – to use as a Sword of Damocles should anyone eventually wish to leave.

      If Ms. Holmes is a true Catholic, doesn't that mean she can never again be with another man?
      I imagine she's like the majority of Catholics in that she may have faith in Christ but not The Vatican's infallibility.
      Dollars to doughnuts, she'll be remarried within 3 years.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:19 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Good post Bill.

      Amen.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:29 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Doc, I didn't mean for Tom and Katie to reconcile, though that is possible I suppose. I meant that Tom can seek reconciliation in the Church as well since he was also once a Catholic

      July 12, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      The Church makes a distinction between the rights of the government concerning civil marriage and the sacrament of Holy Matrimony within the Church. It's likely that her marriage to Tom would not be recognized by the Church as matrimony and would not inhibit her from entering that state with someone. Then there is the ability to seek annulment which would also free her from any bond to Tom. The Church has duty to defend the sacrament of matrimony but not the civil standing granted by the state.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:30 am |
    • Lemark

      Who invited me? –

      Reading a book on a religion is a road to ignorance? That is preposterous. Even from a strictly secular sense you can get a tremendous amount of value from a study of theology. Heck, even if you are not seeking spirituality there are lessons of psychology, sociology, and history to be learned.

      How can you really understand history if you don't have a basic understanding of the religions that influenced it? How can you interpret data about a society without understanding some of the core values that come from a societies religion?

      It's cool to be an athiest, but to say that adding knowlege about relgiion leads to ignorance is silly.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      @Lemark

      I think what he meant was to read and accept the supernatural claims made within religious texts is ignorant. Well maybe not ignorant so much as gullible.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
  13. Buddha2112

    TAX ALL RELIGIONS!

    July 12, 2012 at 7:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I do believe your brain to be taxed. You should be so grateful to learn Jesus' truth. It's up to you to get started.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:25 am |
    • WASP

      @HS: i feel deep pity for you; clinging to a belief in anything but yourself. listenning to what appointed men have told you to read and think, such a waste of a life but it is your life to waste. i hope you enjoyed atleast a part of your sheltered and prohibiting exsistance.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:38 am |
    • HeavenSent

      WASP, I don't know where you atheists get this notion that Christians don't think for ourselves. I do believe we allow you to keep mouthing off because we are taught to be polite, Christ like in our actions towards everyone. Therefore, what you perceive as a weakness, isn't what it is.

      As far as believing yourselves to be superior over others because of your lack of belief. The only thing I will say is, how sad for all you atheists. That's a wasted life pitting yourself against all others.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:59 am |
    • Primewonk

      HeavenSent wrote, "... we allow you to keep mouthing off..."

      You "allow" us?

      Who the fuck do you think you are?

      July 12, 2012 at 8:22 am |
    • HeavenSent

      A Christian practicing patience. And you? What do you practice? Let me guess, the art of deception.

      July 12, 2012 at 8:31 am |
    • Primewonk

      Sorry HS, but no. You said that you "allow" us to keep talking. Do you think that you, or any other ignorant fundiot has control or power over the rest of us?

      July 12, 2012 at 8:53 am |
    • WASP

      @HS: i wasn't being condesending or thinking myself better than another. i was raised in north carolina and brought up southern baptist,thus i have manners. the thinking for yourself i was implying viewing all available information and making choices based off of that information. i don't see the logic in retrieveing all information and life lessons from a book or train of thought that has been outdated for the past 2000 years. humans can either evolve with time or we can become outdated and go extinct ourselves, then the next intelligent species to evolve can argue over human exsistance.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:00 am |
    • catholic engineer

      No. Don't tax religions. I insist on separation of church and state. That way, when a military drone kills a family at a wedding party or maintains something like Abu Ghraib, secular society can buy the bombs using secular taxes. Then secular society can take full blame for such things and average Joe Taxpayer can be complicit.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonkers, that's your lie you believe that survivor of the fittest nonsense. Christians are NOT about controlling anyone. We are focused on Jesus' truth that changes us from carnal thinking to spiritual thinking. Then we practice what He teaches us every step of our lives.

      I was telling you like it is with the atheists mindset. Aka Truth versus your delusional mindset of life is a game and that you are determined to be the victor. Victorious over what? Playing others? When you view people as a game, they become objects to you. What a wasted life if you can't just be yourself and enjoy others, all others, in whatever life brings your way.

      Since I dealt with the predator personality that destroyed my life, I do have the right to write this fact to you.. You are on the wrong path in life. The only person that can help you help yourself is to get to know Jesus. His truth will set you free from the chain of lies binding you.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:08 am |
    • HeavenSent

      WASP, do you really think Christians aren't out in the world working, attending school/college, pursuing life's pleasures? I'm shaking my head how you folks come up with this baloney, except, you need to make these things up to boost that belief system ... that you must be in control of everything/anything/everyone. If you were raised Baptist, I suggest you open up the KJV of the Bible and allow Jesus to truly enter your life. You are overdo of a makeover.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:17 am |
    • Primewonk

      Sorry HS but simply more bullshit from you trying to dodge from what you wrote. You wrote, and I quote, "... we allow you to keep mouthing off...".

      This statement shows that you believe you have control over what other people are allowed to say. You don't. You have no control over what any of us say. This is yet another example of your desire to turn us into a theocracy. I certainly hope you are ready for a bloodbath if you ignorant cretins continue this path.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:19 am |
    • WASP

      @HS:"What a wasted life if you can't just be yourself and enjoy others, all others, in whatever life brings your way."

      so by your statement most religious folks are wasting their lives seeing they spend so much time not enjoying everyone around them. want proof? gay rights, abortion, universal health care, using the bible to be racists,womanizers, child abusers the list goes on and on........let's not forget the crazys that "hear god" and murder their children or refuse them medical attention due to their beliefs.
      so let's see, i have absolutely no qwams with any person unless they burn me first and enjoy picking people brains for information and learning of their lives..............yeah i'm wasting away. lol
      oh and BTW nice stealing my statement of "wasting your life" and using it against others.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:22 am |
    • HeavenSent

      "because we are taught to be polite"

      This part I conveniently ignore most of the time.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:24 am |
    • Sid

      So funny to see HeavenSent get so PWNED -so bigtime PWNED.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:27 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Primewonk, I can't stop you from acting foolish. Therefore, I have to allow you to be what you are.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:33 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Typical sociopathic personality phony heavensent HAS to hijack my handle to write your nonsense. You are a sick pup that needs Jesus' truth in your life. At least He would stop you from lying and stealing.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:35 am |
    • derp

      "HAS to hijack my handle"

      FYI to christard wingnut.

      It is not a "handle".

      The internet is not a CB radio.

      I realize that CB radio is probably how everyone communicates in your trailer park.

      But on the magic electronic god box (computer) it's called a screen name.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:47 am |
    • Primewonk

      " Therefore, I have to allow you to be what you are."

      Again, this is simply bullshit. You don't allow any of us to do anything. You have no power over any of us. You are a simply a pathetic ignorant bitter fundiot troll.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:53 am |
    • HeavenSent

      WASP, you posted “@HS:"What a wasted life if you can't just be yourself and enjoy others, all others, in whatever life brings your way.
      so by your statement most religious folks are wasting their lives seeing they spend so much time not enjoying everyone around them. want proof?
      gay rights”
      A: As with everyone, we all have our crosses to bare. Gay folks need to read, comprehend and abide in Jesus' truth.
      “abortion,”
      A: murder. Women should be encouraged and helped financially, emotionally and spiritually to have their babies.

      “universal health care”

      A: There isn't an emergency room in this country that turns away a patient in need of medical care. Hence, why those that pay for medical insurance have such high costs involved. Don't drag me into baloney political debates.

      “using the bible to be racists,womanizers, child abusers the list goes on and on........”
      A: Some humans, from any/all walks of life have been racists or womanizers or child abusers. How convenient to blame these actions on a Christian who probably never opened the Bible to read it in their life. Typical carnal thinking.

      “let's not forget the crazys that "hear god" and murder their children or refuse them medical attention due to their beliefs.”

      A: I don't know the specifics that you are referring to. You don't believe atheists have done the same? Oh, it isn't recorded in the paper or announced by any of the media ... wonder why? Oh, that's right ... atheists are perfect people who live perfectly and never make mistakes. Give it a rest with this illusion. All media uses situations for sensational benefits for ratings. That's the name of the game. I guess you atheists just aren't newsworthy. Carnal humans being carnal.

      “so let's see, i have absolutely no qwams with any person unless they burn me first and enjoy picking people brains for information and learning of their lives..............yeah i'm wasting away. lol
      oh and BTW nice stealing my statement of "wasting your life" and using it against others.”
      A: I didn't know you had a patent on the statement “wasting your life”. What other phrases are off limits according to you? I used the sentence because it was appropriate to the post I used it in.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:59 am |
    • HeavenSent

      derp, how did you know what I was referring to? Oh, let's see, are we being forced by atheists rules and regulations that MUST be adhered, or else? LOL. Buddha2112, how many screen names do you go by?

      Lastly, I'm glad that I don't know any of you personally. Your friends and families must get migraines with you being in their lives.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:12 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonkers, you're repeating yourself without reading my post. I can't make you or anyone do anything. Therefore, I can only allow you to be who you are.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:18 am |
    • Primewonk

      " are we being forced by atheists rules and regulations that MUST be adhered, or else? "

      This, of course, is simply more ignorant fundiot bullshit. You cretins claim 90% of the population are christian. You own the White House, the Senate, the House, and the Supreme Court. You own 50 Governorships, 50 state legislatures, and 50 state supreme couts. And yet, for some bizarre reason, you have the balls to claim you are persecuted.

      Our Constîtution does not allow you môrons to establish a theocracy here. And that is what bugs the crap out of you.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:25 am |
    • Who invited me?

      Blocked?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • Primewonk

      Again, you ignorant putz, you do not allow any of us to do anything. You have no control over any of us, therefore you lack the ability to allow or not allow anything.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Primewonk, besides being foolish, arrogant, obnoxious, you can add stupid to the list of your attributes. Look up the definition of allow before you bury yourself deeper with the sin of wrath that is blinding you Tommie.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:11 am |
    • Who invited me?

      Heavenspent besides being foolish, arrogant, obnoxious, you can add stupid to the list of your attributes. Look up the definition of allow before you bury yourself deeper with the sin of wrath that is blinding you moron

      July 12, 2012 at 11:13 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Heaven Sent, you are complete jac kass. You don't have any say over what anyone here writes and you don't have any say as to what people do. Your ranting is laughable. I can see you stomping around your apartment, scaring the cats and mumbling to yourself. Get a fvckin' life, lady.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • HeavenSent

      That's what I said Tommie Tom. Not having power over anyone is allowing them to do what they do.

      Lay off the pot. Your brain will clear up.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're the one who's hallucinating, honey. I haven't smoked pot or anything else in decades.

      July 12, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Heavenspent
      you really are a looney

      July 12, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • WASP

      @HS: REPLY UNDER YOUR ANSWER."so by your statement most religious folks are wasting their lives seeing they spend so much time not enjoying everyone around them. want proof?
      gay rights”
      A: As with everyone, we all have our crosses to bare. Gay folks need to read, comprehend and abide in Jesus' truth.
      REPLY: ummmmm how about no. we live in and i fought for a free secular nation. our consti-tution was founded on "all men created equal" second on that one, your jesus truth leads to people like david koresh.
      “abortion,”
      A: murder. Women should be encouraged and helped financially, emotionally and spiritually to have their babies.
      REPLY: these women don't deserve being attacked.....and sometimes literally by religious zealots that believe a fetus is equal to a child. it isn't, never will be due to the fact a fetus isn't aware it's alive, the "kicking" a mother feels is merely neural discharge along the nervous system. second a fetus can be naturally lost, we call that miscarriage.....so would that qualify under your definition as the woman's body commiting murder?

      “universal health care”
      A: There isn't an emergency room in this country that turns away a patient in need of medical care. Hence, why those that pay for medical insurance have such high costs involved. Don't drag me into baloney political debates.
      REPLY: i find it a shame that other countries can run universal health coverage but our country can't due to religious and other parties blocking what the government does for our soldiers daily.

      “using the bible to be racists,womanizers, child abusers the list goes on and on........”
      A: Some humans, from any/all walks of life have been racists or womanizers or child abusers. How convenient to blame these actions on a Christian who probably never opened the Bible to read it in their life. Typical carnal thinking.
      REPLY: first your use of "carnal" is truly horrible.
      definition"a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appeti-tes b : marked by s-e-xuality."
      i have witnessed first hand the use of the bible to validate hate toward, gays, people of various national origin and females. your bible itself tells females to obey the men.

      “let's not forget the crazys that "hear god" and murder their children or refuse them medical attention due to their beliefs.”
      A: I don't know the specifics that you are referring to. You don't believe atheists have done the same? Oh, it isn't recorded in the paper or announced by any of the media ... wonder why? Oh, that's right ... atheists are perfect people who live perfectly and never make mistakes. Give it a rest with this illusion. All media uses situations for sensational benefits for ratings. That's the name of the game. I guess you atheists just aren't newsworthy. Carnal humans being carnal.
      REPLY: again with the ignorant use of carnal, trying to sound educated and truly being educated shows in proper sentence structure and word useage HS.
      second thing up for bids is this wonderful, atheists can't claim to "hear god" or any other god to excuse our violent actions. if i walk up and shoot you point blank, what defense do i have? none. i have no lie i can tell my family or community to make them feel better. our actions aren't broadcast because we don't claim the boogieman or some other fairytale creature made us do anything. we have to accept our actions, thus it isn't a likely to sell papers or get people to watch on the evening news.

      “so let's see, i have absolutely no qwams with any person unless they burn me first and enjoy picking people brains for information and learning of their lives..............yeah i'm wasting away. lol
      oh and BTW nice stealing my statement of "wasting your life" and using it against others.”
      A: I didn't know you had a patent on the statement “wasting your life”. What other phrases are off limits according to you? I used the sentence because it was appropriate to the post I used it in."
      REPLY: no i don't have a.......hint the word you were looking for was copyright, patent is for an invention or physical object. copyright is used for ideas and other things placed on paper. it sort of bothered me that you would so quickly steal something used by an atheist to suit your own needs, guess that only proves that you truly do not think for yourself but get through life copying off the other kids papers. ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!

      July 12, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • jimmer

      I don't know who this Heavendoosh is, but you could not ask for a better spokesperson for atheism.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
  14. Kebos

    She merely moved from one cult to another.

    July 12, 2012 at 7:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      If she focuses on Jesus' truth by reading the Bible every day, she'll be OK.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:27 am |
    • gerald

      Heavensent, interesting comment. So how did the Christians of the first 1600 years "be ok" since they didn't have bibles, at least until the printing press? How about the Christians of the first 300 years before the Bible was even put together? 90% of humanity over the centuries has been illiterate. So how were they "ok". Don't get me wrong I love reading the Bible but reading the Bible is not "the way" of salvation. Sorry. The scriptures focus on "hearing' the word of God much much more than reading the WOG. Protestantism is false.

      July 12, 2012 at 8:59 am |
    • Huebert

      Gerald

      So is Catholicism, and just so you don't think I discriminate, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism are also false.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:27 am |
    • derp

      Priceless, two christards arguing over who is the true christard.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:48 am |
    • HeavenSent

      gerald, they meet in groups to relay Jesus' truth. Hence, the beginning of constructing churches as gathering places to hear and discuss Jesus' teachings.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:20 am |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      HS uses the word "truth" very liberally. The truth is Jesus is dead, has been for 2,000 years, and is not coming back.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:22 am |
    • johnjohn

      Who are you to decide yours is cult while yours not. Thank goodness,

      July 12, 2012 at 10:30 am |
    • johnjohn

      Who are you to decide yours is cult while yours not.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:31 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Religion is #1, Truth has always belong to Jesus.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      If THEY met in churches to "discuss" religion, why is it you are not willing to do the same, HS? Is it because you couldn't get along with anyone there, just as you couldn't get along with anyone at work?

      July 12, 2012 at 11:20 am |
  15. Reality

    For Katie's eyes only:

    Saving you from the Infamous Resurrection Con/

    From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

    Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

    To wit;

    From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

    "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
    Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts, i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.

    The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

    "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
    http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

    With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

    An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

    p.4

    "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

    p.168. by Ted Peters:

    Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

    So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

    July 12, 2012 at 7:10 am |
  16. A dose of reality

    1. You believe that the pope has personal conversations with God (that nobody else ever hears) and is infallible when speaking on matters of Church doctrine. You then wistfully ignore the fact that Church doctrine changes and that former popes therefore could not possibly have been “infallible”. Limbo, for example, was touted by pope after pope as a place where un-baptized babies who die go, until Pope Benedict XVI just eradicated it (or, more accurately, so watered it down as effectively eradicate it in a face saving way). Seems all those earlier “infallible” Popes were wrong – as they were on Adam and Eve v. evolution, heliocentricity v. egocentricity, and a host of other issues that required an amendment of official Church doctrine. You also ignore the innumerable murders, rampant corruption and other crimes committed over the centuries by your “infallible”, god-conversing popes.
    2. You reject the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours. You are blissfully (or intentionally) blind to the fact, that had you been born in another part of the World, you would be defending the local god(s) and disdaining the incorrectness of Catholic beliefs.
    3. You begrudgingly accept evolution (about a century after Darwin proved it and after accepting Genesis as literally true for about 2,000 years) and that Adam and Eve was totally made up, but then conveniently ignore that fact that your justification for Jesus dying on the cross (to save us from Original Sin) has therefore been eviscerated. Official Church literature still dictates a belief in this nonsense.
    4. You disdain native beliefs as “polytheist” and somehow “inferior” but cannot explain (i) why being polytheistic is any sillier than being monotheistic. Once you make the quantum leap into Wonderland by believing in sky-fairies, what difference does if make if you believe in one or many?; nor (ii) why Christians believe they are monotheistic, given that they believe in god, the devil, guardian angels, the holy spirit, Jesus, many demons in hell, the Virgin Mary, the angel Gabriel, thousands of saints, all of whom apparently make Earthly appearances periodically, and all of whom inhabit their life-after-death lands with magic-sacred powers of some kind.
    5. You bemoan the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don`t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees or the 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf (or the dozen or so other slaughters condoned by the bible). You also like to look to god to for guidance in raising your children, ignoring the fact that he drowned his own – according to your Bible.
    6. You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that God impregnated Mary with himself, to give birth to himself, so he could sacrifice himself to himself to “forgive” an ”Original Sin” that we now all know never happened.
    7. You disdain gays as sinners, but have no problem when Lot got drunk and committed father-daughter in.cest (twice) or offered his daughters to a mob to be gang ra.ped, or when Moses, time and again, offered his wife up for the “pleasures” of the Egyptians to save his own skin.
    8. You believe that your god will cause anyone who does not accept your Bronze Age stories to suffer a penalty an infinite times worse than the death penalty (burning forever in excruciating torture) simply because of their healthy skepticism, yet maintain that god “loves them”.
    9. You will totally reject any scientific breakthrough that is inconsistent with your established doctrine, unless and until it is so generally accepted as to back you into a corner. While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you of the deep inanity of your silly faith, some priest doing magic hand signals over bread and wine is enough to convince you it is thereby transformed into the flesh and blood of Jesus because of the priest’s magic powers (or “sacred powers” to the extent you see a difference).
    10. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to Lourdes, Fátima and other magic places and prayers in general. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. The remaining 99.99% failure was simply “god moving in mysterious ways”. The fact that, if you ask for something repeatedly, over and over, year after year, sooner or later that thing is bound to happen anyway, has not even occurred to you. A stopped clock is right twice a day.
    11. You accept the stories in the Bible without question, despite not having the slightest idea of who actually wrote them, how credible these people were or how long the stories were written after the alleged events they record occurred. For example, it is impossible for Moses to have written the first five books of the Old Testament, as Catholics believe. For one, they record his death and events after his death. In fact, the chance of the Bible being historically accurate in any but the broadest terms is vanishingly small.
    Heavens, I could not fit them into ten. Maybe, if they pray hard enough to their sky-fairy, the Catholics can turn them into 10

    July 12, 2012 at 6:40 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Walking in Christ is the ultimate living experience. I can tell you about all the positives of His truth, but, being the doubter, you won't listen. It would be just another situation to shrug off as you pat yourself on the back – another point for your side. After all, isn't that the name of the game with you atheists? Doubting everything in life? Well, obviously, the military programmers who designed the Web that you are surfing on, had no such doubt. You're utilizing what they created.

      Stop trying to pigeon hole Jesus. It doesn't, has never, and will never work.

      Stop telling Jesus what He meant to write, instead of reading what He did write.

      Stop assuming your generation is smarter than the generation of mere mortals you assume wrote the Bible. Holy Men inspired by Jesus' Holy Spirit scribed His truth. Jesus is the author.

      After you start truly understanding what Jesus is telling you, you will understand that He had His truth scribed.

      Once you stop being smug, humble yourself and actually read His truth (which, by the way, should be for the rest of your life), you too, will understand what His followers throughout time were humbly, grateful to understand.

      If you keep trying to pigeon hole Jesus, you become just, another pigeon.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:14 am |
    • Martog

      Heaven Sent...Please refute WITH FACTS anything Reality posted. You don't have any....Just more religious regurgitation. Please get your head out of the Bronze AGE!

      July 12, 2012 at 7:21 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, why post to me using Martog's handle? Come out of the closet.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:33 am |
    • Martog

      Heaven sent can't answer the question WITH FACTS. Gee...imagine that. Go back into your closet and stay there

      July 12, 2012 at 8:06 am |
    • HeavenSent

      You folks are so phony with your multiple handles and multiple personalities... playing good cop/bad cop all day long. Is that part of your superior strategy ... playing folks at every turn. Your psychiatric societies call that sociopathic personality disorder.

      Martog, take your Tommie Tom dog and tie it to the tree.

      July 12, 2012 at 8:26 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Matog, if you remember, when you wrote the post it said "for Katie's eyes only".

      July 12, 2012 at 8:34 am |
    • Rundvelt

      Heavensent, you're a poor troll. I mean, trolling theists and atheists is ship tier trolling and you're not even doing that well.

      I suggest you upgrade your skills by trolling physics forums with free energy drawings and buttered cat arrays.

      July 12, 2012 at 8:42 am |
    • Deblette

      A typical post from someone who knows absolutely nothing about the Catholic faith or the bible. Nothing is as amusing as seeing complete ignorance in action. Some day, if you ever really study any of this and you look back on what you wrote, you will cringe in utter humiliation. That is good though, it builds character.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:43 am |
    • Martog

      So, still no facts to refute on thing Reality posted. Imagine that. Ah...welcome to the D*rk Ages!

      July 12, 2012 at 10:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Rundvelt, my response to you is being blocked. I did use the word coward, when responding to you.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Is HS STILL posting about handles and stealing?

      How do you get through the day without changing tinfoil hats every 20 minutes, you delirious nitwit?

      July 12, 2012 at 10:27 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Maybe CNN is out to get you, HS.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:28 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Martog, what is your issue? Of course Jesus rose spiritually and not physically. Of course, folks who want to know where His body is buried will never receive this information from those who know. The remaining of the article when it comes to what others believe are just carnal thinking, not knowing how to think spiritually.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Not CNN Tommie Tom, just you and your warped personality. If you believe I buy into any of your pathetic baloney. You are mistaken. As for you following me on this site, you are doing it again. As for stealing my handle, you have the venom of a snake that posts those perverted statements using my handle.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • Who invited me?

      HeavenSpent
      I have seen you, just today alone bear false witness (sin #1), and cast YOUR judgement on others (sin #2)
      You have learned NOTHING about what it means to be christian, but you have learned much about being the stereotypical christian nut-job we have all seen preachiing on street corners
      And by the way, the only ones of my friends and family that give people migraines are the religious zealots like you.

      July 12, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • sam stone

      Having a bellyfull of magic mushrooms is the ultimate living experience. I can tell you about all the positives of their truth, but, being the doubter, you won't listen.

      HS: You are anything BUT humble

      July 12, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Tommie Tom, I'm not wasting my time writing to the other handles you use to back you up. For you information Tommie Tom, I know your kind. You're not fooling me one bit. I don't need to humble myself with you and I'm calling a spade a spade with you ... and that is not bearing false witness on what you do on this blog.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:20 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Keep digging that hole, HS. You're too stupid to be anything but a joke.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • christ jones

      You don't know faith

      July 12, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • A dose of reality

      AND STILL NO FACTS to refute anything in the original post. The religi*us reg*rgitation goes on and on

      July 12, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
  17. plutoIsn'taplanet

    From aliens & audits to pedo_philes & pontiffs....lol 😉

    July 12, 2012 at 5:54 am |
  18. Jim

    re·li·gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
    noun
    2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:

    So by the definition of religion, Atheism is a religion. so does that make you stupid also.

    July 12, 2012 at 5:53 am |
    • Speedy Gonzago

      You are guilty of the Fallacy Of Equivocation – lot of that going around lately. The correct definition that applies to deities is:" the service and worship of God or the supernatural". You chose an alternate definition and pretend it means the same thing, like saying that "yellow" means "coward", so a yellow rose is cowardly. You must use the correct definition or you are committing the Fallacy of Equivocation.

      So why is it so important to you to prove that not believing is believing?

      July 12, 2012 at 6:02 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Speedy.... more and more are seeing Atheism as just another form of Belief. 🙂

      I know it is hard to accept but heck you even have Atheist sounding like the pastor down South who declared that Gays should be put in concentration camps. For them, it is those of Faith that they feel should be put into camps.

      Time to just be open minded and read the comments by some Atheist or Evangelical Atheist as another blogger mentioned 🙂

      July 12, 2012 at 6:41 am |
    • Speedy Gonzago

      Fallacy of Argument From Assertion, Red Herring Fallacy, ad hominem, and another Argument From Assertion to close.

      No point in talking to you.

      July 12, 2012 at 6:49 am |
    • Blunt Object

      Non-belief is not a belief.

      July 12, 2012 at 6:51 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Speedy, don't keep getting scared when you get cornered. Heck, fight your way out.

      All I am doing is showing the comparisons and similarities between Atheism and the Faithful. With the Radical Faithful and the Radical Atheist both posting wildly, it is a easy job.

      >>>”Non-belief is not a belief.”

      Hmm... So when someone says that there is not a God or Gods or that there is a God or Gods and neither can not prove it …

      ….they are just stating what they “believe”.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:03 am |
    • Reality

      Summarizing with a prayer:

      The Apostles' (Agnostics' Creed) 2012: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
      and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen
      (references used are available upon request)

      July 12, 2012 at 7:13 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      A = Lack of
      Theism = Belief in Gods.
      Atheism is a negative statement.
      Is being asymptomatic a sign of disease?
      To which party is an apolitical person loyal?

      July 12, 2012 at 8:15 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Not to choose is also a choice

      July 12, 2012 at 8:49 am |
    • Blunt Object

      @Bill
      Is abstinence also a form of sex in your mind?

      July 12, 2012 at 9:23 am |
    • Rynomite

      I'm an athiest, and I don't really see a point in this argument. What does it matter if atheism is a belief or not? It seems irrelevant to me. This whole particular argument is just semantics.

      But for the sake of fun, lets just clarify and say both sides are correct. It all depends on the difinition of belief.

      be·lief noun
      1. something believed; an opinion or conviction
      2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof
      3. confidence; faith; trust
      4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith

      Athiesm can correctly be called a belief under definition 1, but not 2,3, or 4.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:27 am |
    • BRC

      @Jim,
      Atheism is a belief (I prefer to call it a thought process, but you can say belief). The belief that there are no gods. That's why we comment on the BELIEF blog. It is NOT however a religion. Buddhism (true buddhism) is an atheistic religion. They believe in reincarnation, have spiritual concepts, and believe rules for existence after death, but they do not believe in gods. There are Atheist "churches" that serve as social congregations for atheists. If they abide by an agreed upon structure of not believing in gods, and practice perscribed rituals, then yes, THEY are atheist religions. But Atheism, in and of itself, is NOT a religion.

      Also, it is not inherently equivalent to faith. You have people who simply feel there are no gods, adn trust taht feeling absolutley. That is atheism as a faith, and has no more proof than any religion. But more commonly, you have atheism as a belief based on observance, people who have looked at how the world works, researched different gods and religions, examines history, and explored science, and found that there is no evidence for any god, and nothing in nature that inherently requires a god's intereaction- so we believe there are no gods because there is no reason to believe there are any. That's not the same thing as faith, that's a deductive thought. It's a belief based on evidence.

      SO, stop trying to say that Atheists are the same thing as the religious, so we're just as wrong by our own arguments. Most of us aren't, and its stupid to imply that we are. You want to prove us wrong, find evidence, or find a way to make religious texts less ridiculous so that we can't mock them anymore. Otherwise, you're not really accomplishing anything.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:36 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      @ Blunt Actually I would answer yes. Abstinence or celibacy is an expression of one's seexuality.

      July 12, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • christ jones

      Atheism is not a religion by this definition. What is the fundamental SET of beliefs? Atheists can't even agree that there is no "God", "Jehova", Satan", "Supreme Being", "Ultimate Power" whatever they try to call it. It even sounds ignorant "I believe in Atheism."

      July 12, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
  19. jack

    Thank goodness she will be able to raise Seri in the Roman Catholic faith and tell her that the little piece of bread they are kneeling before is the creator of the universe.Oh thank goodness, she wont have to be taught any silly religious stuff.

    July 12, 2012 at 5:44 am |
    • Yeppers

      Katie is doing the intellectual equivalent of going from a trailer park in Arkansas to a trailer park in Nevada – it only seems different.

      July 12, 2012 at 5:56 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I thank God every day that my ego didn't sway to the doubters side.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:37 am |
    • open cinnamon shoe

      Amen HS. Me too!

      July 12, 2012 at 8:50 am |
    • derp

      Going from one delusional cult to another delusional cult.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:25 am |
    • gerald

      "I am meek and humble of heart". Yes what a humble God we have that he should come to the world in the form of man, be crucified on a cross by us, who are less than ants compared to him, and then feed us, our souls, with his shed body and blood. You say this is not possible. With God all things are possible. I believe Jesus when he says "unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you".

      July 12, 2012 at 12:06 pm |
    • jimmer

      "With God all things are possible"

      Seriously?

      Ok, let me see you grow a second head. If you can grow a second head, I'll believe that "anything is possible with god".

      Until you grow a second head, shut the f@*k up.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
  20. r00t4rd3d

    All forms of religion are jstupid.

    July 12, 2012 at 5:40 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Yes, that atheism is a waste of life.

      July 12, 2012 at 7:37 am |
    • A dose of reality

      Heaven sent is a troll. Never presents any facts or evidence just his/her 'opinion' and LOTS of it.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • jimmer

      In heavenSk an ks defense; this is a belief blog. The whole idea of "belief" is that you accept things in absence of any evidence.

      If you are expecting evidence on a message board dedicated to religion, you are likely to be disappointed.

      July 12, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.