By Laura Koran, CNN
Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.
From the Blog:
CNN: Unpacking report that Katie Holmes has rejoined Catholic Church
In the blizzard of reports surrounding Tom Cruise's recent split with Katie Holmes, this one stands out: After her years married to Scientologist Cruise, Holmes is said to be rejoining the Roman Catholic Church of her youth. A report from the Huffington Post with the decisive headline "Katie Holmes Returns to Catholic Church" has been rattling around the Internet since Monday. But the Internet newspaper cites a lone unnamed member of the church choir, who claims Holmes has registered as a parishioner of the Church of St. Francis Xavier in New York.
CNN: Pew survey: Middle East Muslims support democracy, Islam in politics
Just as an Islamist president takes office in Egypt, a major survey shows that most Muslims in nations in or close to the Middle East want both democracy and a strong role for Islam in politics and government. The survey, released Tuesday by the Pew Research Center, finds that most people in many predominantly Muslim nations remain optimistic that democracy can succeed in the Middle East, more than a year after the Arab Spring began sweeping across the Middle East and North Africa.
CNN: Your Take: Church and beer tweets study
Twitter isn’t exactly scientific evidence, but it can produce conversation starters. Many readers registered a variety of responses to Dan Merica's recent story, about a study that said Americans tweeted more about church than beer. The study was conducted by Floatingsheep.org, looking at geotagged tweets with the words "church" or "beer" in them. Geotagging allows users of the social media site to indicate their precise location when they send a message.
Tweets of the Day:
[tweet https://twitter.com/mboorstein/status/223241853036793856%5D
[tweet https://twitter.com/TribSeeker/status/223033097459998720%5D
[tweet https://twitter.com/HuffPostRelig/status/223107217489014784%5D
Belief on TV:
Enlightening Reads:
The Chicago Tribune: Jews, Muslims show unity through bike ride
A group of Muslim and Jewish cyclists found common ground Sunday on Chicago pavement as they biked across the city from a downtown mosque to a North Side synagogue. "We have a lot more in common than we have differences," said Julie Hochstadter, at the end of the eight-mile bike ride organized by the Jewish-Muslim Community Building Initiative to bolster interfaith relations in Chicago.
The Bangkok Post: Taiwan to stage first same-sex Buddhist wedding
Two women plan to tie the knot next month in Taiwan's first same-sex Buddhist wedding, as gay and lesbian groups push to make the island the first society in Asia to legalise gay marriage. Fish Huang and her partner You Ya-ting, both 30, will receive their blessings from Master Shih Chao-hui at a Buddhist monastery in north Taiwan's Taoyuan county on August 11.
The Jewish Journal: They just want kosher Dodger Dogs
If kosher-observant L.A. Dodgers fans want to buy a hot dog at a game, they’re out of luck: Dodger Stadium doesn’t sell kosher hot dogs. Hoping to change that, a scrappy group of Dodgers season ticketholders is making every effort to get a concession to sell fresh kosher dogs at the stadium.
The Los Angeles Times: Scientology officials stayed out of Kate Holmes-Tom Cruise divorce
For all the talk about Scientology in the Kate Holmes-Tom Cruise divorce, a source with knowledge of the case said church officials played no role in the private negotiations that resulted in a settlement earlier this week. The source said Scientology officials played no active role in the negotiations among the lawyers. The settlement was reached among the lawyers and neither Holmes nor Cruise were in the meetings, the source added.
Quote of the Day:
Although I fully understand the authoritative role of the Catholic hierarchy in defining the teachings of the faith, in my view only a person who is willing to abandon her own reason and judgment, or who is willing to go against the dictates of her own conscience, can agree to sign such a document.
George Mason University history professor Rosemarie Zagarri wrote in a letter to Arlington Bishop Paul Loverde. Zagarri resigned from her post as a Sunday school teacher at her Virginia parish after receiving a letter asking her to sign a fidelity oath agreeing to submit “of will and intellect” to the Catholic church’s position on all matters. Read the full Washington Post story here.
Join the conversation…
CNN: Ex-Scientologist: Cruise was top church recruit
For the secretive Church of Scientology, "there was no bigger recruit than Tom Cruise." The top Hollywood actor's membership in the Church beginning in 1986 "was huge," says Karen Pressley – a former Commanding Officer of the Church's Celebrity Centre in Hollywood from 1987 to 1989. "My job was to ensure that celebrities were recruited, that celebrities were well serviced within our organization, and also to open up new celebrity centers around the world," she told CNN's Kareen Wynter.
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Prayer changes things
See prayer scientifically work with the power of god at saladandchips.com.
Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs:!
Man, I should have been a priest! I'd still be showering with the boys.
Wow, so far the theory holds! No credible evidence provided, numerous fallacies in each.
I prticularly like the one who says...I have nothing to say so here is something written 2000 years ago
Blame yourself for not understanding Jesus' truth. His truth was the same yesterday (meaning 2000 years ago), today, as it will be tomorrow (meaning for eternity).
Yes heavenspent it will be the same, it is far from truth, but it will be the same.
So before Jesus died, how did non-hebrews get into Heaven?
Cal, read 1 Peter 3.
Who, when you comprehend His truth, you'll no longer be an atheist. Until then, anything we say goes over, through your gray matter. Why? Because you desperately need to cling to the lies that conned you. It's your ego.
How does that fit into the "before Jesus" part?
SO to paraphrase HS You have to believe me before you will believe me.
Huebert, it has absolutely nothing to do with me and everything to do with Jesus.
Cal, everyone goes back to Heaven. It's what side of the gulf they are on.
Good job evading the question HS. God forbid I ask a Christian an honest question about Christianity. Sorry I asked you.
Cal, I gave you God's answer. Just because you don't accept that everyone goes to heaven when they die is not my fault. If you want to read it on your own ... search the Bible for Lazarus and the rich man ... that will show you that Jesus tells us there is a divide in Heaven. All souls go back to God, who created all is also in scriptures. You've got homework to do.
God is watching you poop.
What flavor Snapple are we talkin' about?
"As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned. You only know what He is in print ... you haven't a clue to what He feels like when He comes into your life. "
.
Actually you are quite wrong dear. As I mentioned on many times. I used to be a Christian and was Born Again.
just saying, why are you posting here? As for being a Christian and being born again. They're the same thing.
Posted in wrong area. my bad
HeavenSent
just saying, why are you posting here? As for being a Christian and being born again. They're the same thing.
.
I know but also keep in mind Christian perspective of the Gospels/bible etc vary.
I read the KJV. I have some of the newer versions but due to updating the wording to everyday language that is used today, the meanings to what was said is changed. Reading from the KJV allows us to go back to the original writings to ensure our language matches closely to what was originally scribed.
"Born Again" is just some jargon that Christians yanked out of the Bible in the 1960s to either:
- puff themselves up into Super-Christians
- describe those who fell away and came back
Lingo,
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Amen.
Jesus is the answer. Now what was the question. God bless.
Guys, I've figured out the riddle. It's in the name. "Trollman" It admits to being a troll, so it needs to be ignored. Trollman is trying to teach us to just ignore. For weeks now, under different names, it has posted the same argument over and over, yet we continue to argue with it. Break the cyle.
awww!!!! atheists can't handle the truth!
So anyone that questions atheism is a "troll"?
Not only can atheists not handle the truth, they whine every time their lies are busted. Oh, was I to write questioned? LOL.
I'll wait for their frustrated response of hijacking my handle again to write their babble.
Heavenspent
when have you ever busted anyones "lies"
You spout bible verses, but accomplish nothing more because of your blind ignorance
Was Jesus insane and delusional? Lets put it in perspective
Lets take John Doe in 2012 walks into a hosptial and claims he is half human and half something not of the Earth. He claims he can float in the air. He claims he can raise animals from the dead. He claims he can turn rocks into gold. He claims he can hear somebody talking to him from the sky.
Quit a few times. That's why the frustration continues of stealing my handle to post babble.
HeavySent,
You failed to address the fact that your God of OT was manufactured from a religion established thousands of years before Adam. In fact you haven't proven anybody a liar. Quotes from men is not the voice or authroity of a manufactured God.
just saying, is your reference to Jesus coming back, or, some human doing what you wrote?
HeavenSent
Quit a few times. That's why the frustration continues of stealing my handle to post babble.
>>>
You have a misconception of yourself. Your handle is copied because you act like a fool. You are the court fool running around. You ar ebeing mocked and laughed at not because you are a Christian, rather simply a fool. In FACT your are the farthest thing from being a real Christian. You lack the Holy Spirit and compassion of your Christ. You are here not for Christ but for your own personal reasons and issues. Keep dancing fool.
HeavenSent
just saying, is your reference to Jesus coming back, or, some human doing what you wrote?
>
???????? You haven't made it past the OT. Before we can get to your Christ, we first have to get past the OT being legit. Your response of the Devil doing it, doesn't cut the mustard or the cheese.
Just saying, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to comprehend you don't want to believe what a Christian tells you or what a Christian site has written about what you ask. I've answered you many times, yet, you still want to argue the fact and believe what your atheists sites tell you. It is not my problem or any Christians' problem what you believe. This ridiculous assumption that we're telling you Jesus' truth to save you is incorrect. All we're doing is ensuring Jesus' truth is heard. The rest is up to you. Yes, we care about you because we know you are clueless to what you are doing about your soul. It's still your decision whether you (meaning your soul) goes on through eternity with Jesus, or, gets thrown into the eternal flames.
just sayin, only fools laugh. The only time a Christian wrote me, was one of you in disguise. Besides, do you seriously think I care what a fool thinks of me? You folks only learn carnally. You're missing how to think and be spiritually. As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned. You only know what He is in print ... you haven't a clue to what He feels like when He comes into your life. As far as my playing your games back at you. You all whine like babies because you can dish it out, but, you can't take it.
Thats nice, now do you or Topher care to first establish the credibility and authority of the OT? If you wish people to believe you, then you first have to establish your credibility of the authroity you speak of.
To date, you have failed. As you know because I mentioned many times...I used to be a Christian. The OT gives credibility to your Christ. I am well aware of this. I am asking where is the credibility of the OT? Before we get to B we first must get past A. You don't start with B and work back to A to justify B. Christians and Mormons seem to like to do this with their books. When it comes to vlaidating other things Christians never have a problem starting at A then to B...but when it comes to Christ they start from B and work back. There is a reason for this and you know why that it is.
SO HeavenSent....lets start at A and work to B. Lets first validate A shall we??????????????
Well...I have to admit, it's easier to get saner, on topic responses from CleverBot than from HeavenSent.
"As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned. You only know what He is in print ... you haven't a clue to what He feels like when He comes into your life. "
.
Actually you are quite wrong dear. As I mentioned on many times. I used to be a Christian and was Born Again.
.
HS insists you were never a true christian understanding HIS TRUTH in 3...2...1....
HeavenSent
In a way I pity you. Even the Atheists, non-christians etc recognize how you act unchristian like. You are here for your personal issues and not Christ. You do not act with the light shining inside of you showing it to the rest of the world. No doubt uyou need God, I get that and understand that. Talking of mirrors, you need to look in one daily.
sam
HS insists you were never a true christian understanding HIS TRUTH in 3...2...1....
.
Yep...her MO... what you state is contrary to my understanding or what I believe so therefore you must not have ever been a true christians or you do the work of the Father of Lies. Another way to say that is self denial.
Or she iwll hop to another thread to now avoid this one
I did respond to you just sayin ... except, originally you posted in the wrong location. As far as this tormenting of constantly posting, I do believe I'm talking to a phony that hasn't a clue to who Jesus is, never mind assuming you have the Holy Spirit. As for being Born again, it's the same as being a Christian, both being baptized. As for giving atheists what they dish out. Just proves they can't take it, as they whine, steal my handle to post their frustrated babble. I suspect that Christians aren't suppose to write what we write. When a atheists wants to know Jesus' truth from me ... I will be willing to communicate with that person ... not to worry just sayin.
So I take it then we will not be addressing the validity of Part A (OT). Jesus's truth is tied to the validity of Part A (OT). If we are to accept your Jesus's Truth then we need to address the Truth in the OT first.
I am confused when you say fake? Are you calling me a liar when I tell you I used to be a Christian? Or are you assuming I couldn't have been a Christian or experience the Holy Spirit simply because I am no longer a Christian?
I did write it. Let me post it again.
All fake religions were started by Cain's children and their children's children. Cain is the son of satan, who is a liar. Cain traveled to NOD to get away from where he killed his brother Abel. At the time of the killing, he was not under the law of Moses. Long story short, Cain started all these fake religions. All have the same theme as God's and Jesus' truth. As with satan, he knows scriptures better than any human. He'll tell scriptures, then he'll put his lying spin to it. Same with his offsprings. They started all the fake religions in the world. Had all of them sound Like God's/Jesus' truth .. but, added 5% lies to them to cause confusion and doubt. Why? So no one knows what's truth and what's a lie ... causing doubt, causing never to read Jesus' truth.
Worked, didn't it?
Just sayin, I just got finished reading your other post in other articles. You are no Christian. Shaking my head again...
All fake religions were started by Cain's children and their children's children. Cain is the son of satan, who is a liar. Cain traveled to NOD to get away from where he killed his brother Abel. At the time of the killing, he was not under the law of Moses. Long story short, Cain started all these fake religions. All have the same theme as God's and Jesus' truth. As with satan, he knows scriptures better than any human. He'll tell scriptures, then he'll put his lying spin to it. Same with his offsprings. They started all the fake religions in the world. Had all of them sound Like God's/Jesus' truth .. but, added 5% lies to them to cause confusion and doubt. Why? So no one knows what's truth and what's a lie ... causing doubt, causing never to read Jesus' truth.
.......
First- what is your theory based upon???? Second – you have a time table issue. The fake religion that Judaism stole the fables and stories from was established prior. You have no physical evidence prior to even the Sumerians. You are assuming out of bias for your manufactured God. You have no physical evidence to establish your theory....when the ACTUAL evidence establishes you believe ina false God. Out of credible evidence you must have faith in your theory.
3rd – Cain is the son of Adam.
4th – I already told you I am no longer a Christian...so when you say I am no Christian...you sound quite foolish.
Atheism has no evidence to support their claims.
Sad how they cannot admit that and move on already.
Obvious troll is... obvious?
New name, same played out argument.
Trollman
Unicorn supporters have no evidence to support their claims.
Sad how they cannot admit that and move on already.
>
Yes that is sad
just sayin ... we don't have to prove Jesus. It's the non-believers problem for rejecting His truth and not loving or following Him. What you do is an automatic ride to the eternal flames. Again, not our problem. You own it. The only thing a Christian has to do is to ensure His truth is heard, written, spread. We did that. Toodles. Have a nice ride down, down, down.
"asking her to sign a fidelity oath agreeing to submit “of will and intellect” to the Catholic church’s position on all matters."
That right there is my main problem with organized religions. When atheists say that religion stops people from thinking for themselves, or makes them surrender their free thought to an outside authority, believers alwyas say "I think for myself" and demand an example. Well there you go, asked and answered. The officials of the Catholic Church have provided one for us.
I'm in the military, we are trained to to quickly follow orders, but we are not trained to follow them without quesiton, or without thought. It is impressed upon us that while there are times when we must take actions that we do not understand (sometimes tactical maneuvers or actions in dangerous situations are difficiult to understand when you're in the mix, but the picture is more clear to the people giving the orders); but we must always know when it is time to say that we are being an order that is against our conscience. In the military you're dealing with very real life and death situations (not just combat, life saving, fire fighting, damage control, and disaster assistance are all dangerours), and even we recognize the importance of people being able to ask why. Religion is dealing with a hypothetical after-life, that is yet unproven, and they are of the opinion that their word must be taken without question. That is absurd to me.
It has always intrigued me that religions like Christianity talk about respecting and treasuring truth, but when they talk about religion, they always seem to make dishonest arguments. I have come to the conclusion that their problem is that they have absolutely no evidence to support their positions, and must necessarily use fallacious argumentation as a result.
I doubt they are trying to be dishonest, but without evidence, they are left with nothing else.
I think our long-absent Fallacy Spotter had it nailed, that every point they attempt to make must be a fallacy, that they are trying to support a position that has no support, and have no choice but to resort to dishonest arguments.
I think I will look at every post made today and see if they are indeed all based on fallcies.
Walking in Christ is the ultimate living experience. I can tell you about all the positives of His truth, but, if you are a doubter, you won't listen. It would be just another situation to shrug off as you pat yourself on the back – another point for your side. After all, isn't that the name of the game with you atheists? Doubting everything in life? Well, obviously, the military programmers who designed the Web that you are surfing on, had no such doubt. You're utilizing what they created.
Stop trying to pigeon hole Jesus. It doesn't, has never, and will never work.
Stop telling Jesus what He meant to write, instead of reading what He did write.
Stop assuming your generation is smarter than the generation of mere mortals you assume wrote the Bible. Holy Men inspired by Jesus' Holy Spirit scribed His truth. Jesus is the author. After you start truly understand what Jesus is telling you, you will understand that He had His truth scribed. Once you stop being smug, humble yourself and actually read His truth (which, by the way, should be for the rest of your life), you too, will understand what His followers throughout time were humbly, grateful to understand.
If you keep trying to pigeon hole Jesus, you become just, another pigeon.
Some falls by the way side, some upon stony places, and some among thorns.
Here are examples of good ground:
1. Psalm 34:18
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
2. Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
3. Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
4. Isaiah 66:2
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Robert,
Amen.
I just can't believe that any God would not make a way that is testible. There have been many scientific studies that uncovered facts that the discovering scientist couldn't even conceive. But after multiple trials and expirements they verified the data to be true. These are scientific laws created by this alleged God so why should the path to salvation be based on different rules. Should there not be a process that one can 100% doubt but do an expirement (in this case pray or meditate) that validates the existance of God. If not then you have to already believe before praying for salvation, which is basically predestination. I've prayed for salvation before, but either the prayer fell on deaf ears, no ears at all or I'm just not sincere enough for the almighty creator.
Cal, as with everyone's prayers. Jesus hears them. We just don't know or see His answer. What we look for is not how He provides. We can never have preconceived notion of what to expect from Him. He is beyond our concept.
Peace.
HeavenSent's last post is a perfect example of begging the question. Her premise, that Jesus/God hears all prayers, as.sumes the conclusion, Jesus/God exist.
@only a test
Got one for you.
God speaks to people all the time.
In 2008, He told Boyce Singleton Jr. to shoot and stab his pregnant girlfriend.
Deanna Laney heard God direct her to bludgeon her three sons, aged 9, 6 and 15 months. Only the youngest survived.
Blair Donnelly received instructions to stab to death his 16 year old daughter, Stephanie.
Christopher Varian was slaughtered with a cheese knife after God spoke with one of his employees.
God told Jennifer Cisowski to dash her infant's head on the rocks, so ""Just like Jesus raised Lazarus, I threw the baby on the stones by the pool."
Khandi Busby got a direct message from God advising her that the only way to save her 6 and 8 year old boys was to toss them off a bridge in Dallas. Fortunately, they survived.
Angel Rico says he received a divine command to strangle his 4 year old son, so he did just that and left him at the side of the highway.
Lashaun Harris threw her 3 kids – aged 6, 2 and 16 months, into the San Francisco Bay after God let her know that He wanted a human sacrifice.
Since nobody has a psychic interface capable of intercepting and interpreting divine messages, these folk's experiences are no less credible than when God spoke to Moses or Abraham.
Cal,
Don’t give up. You are on the right track because you are seeking. I have never personally known anyone with your exact circ.umstances, but a couple that were similar. One young man who told me of his experience after the fact, he related that he had prayed for salvation several times and never perceived that he had achieved it. Finally, after discussions with a good friend of his who had been a Christian for several years, he went into his bedroom, closed and locked the door, and told God that he would stay there until he was either saved or assured he could not be. He was successful. Another young lady had prayed and had doubts and went and talked to her pastor. The pastor even told her that he believed she was saved but she still was not sure. She went home alone and prayed that God would make her know for sure that she was one of his. She was successful. Another 15 year old young man walked the aisle at church, repeated the prayer the pastor instructed him to say and got up not knowing that he was saved. He told his mother what had happened and that he was unsure of his salvation. His mother told him that all he lacked was trusting the lord to do what he had promised to do. He went into his room alone and prayed again trusting the lord and his burden was lifted.
If you know you have broken Gods law and are a sinner in his eyes. If you feel guilty and convicted of your sin, then forgiveness is available. If you are sorry, then you have that good ground, I posted earlier. You have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If you pray with that broken heart and contrite spirit believing that Jesus’s paid the penalty for your sin by his death on the cross and that you are justified before God by his resurrection then you can expect to receive his Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will make you know you are saved. Whatever you do, don’t give up.
Robert. Seriously. Anyone who wants something will find it. Anyone who hopes for a sign will call damn near anything a sign. Have at it.
HeavenSent
Walking in Christ is the ultimate living experience. I can tell you about all the positives of His truth, but, if you are a doubter, you won't listen. It would be just another situation to shrug off as you pat yourself on the back – another point for your side. After all, isn't that the name of the game with you atheists? Doubting everything in life? Well, obviously, the military programmers who designed the Web that you are surfing on, had no such doubt. You're utilizing what they created.
Stop trying to pigeon hole Jesus. It doesn't, has never, and will never work.
Stop telling Jesus what He meant to write, instead of reading what He did write.
Stop assuming your generation is smarter than the generation of mere mortals you assume wrote the Bible. Holy Men inspired by Jesus' Holy Spirit scribed His truth. Jesus is the author. After you start truly understand what Jesus is telling you, you will understand that He had His truth scribed. Once you stop being smug, humble yourself and actually read His truth (which, by the way, should be for the rest of your life), you too, will understand what His followers throughout time were humbly, grateful to understand.
If you keep trying to pigeon hole Jesus, you become just, another pigeon.
...............
Fail. First establish the validity, integrity and authority of the OT. Jesus is a moot point until you do. You speak with no authority or credibility.
The OT was written to explain God, His laws, what He wanted from us and to tell us that He would send mankind a savior. The NT is God, coming to earth, walking in the flesh as Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior as promised by God in Heaven, dying for our sins to defeat death (which is satan which is sin). The rest I posted already, several times today. I suggest you search for this and stop with your obnoxiousness. Same goes for you. You don't like my postings. Too bad. Get over yourself.
Actually, just saying. You're the one that fails. I just finished reading your posts in another article and your answers are not those of a Christian. Besides, you blew your cover when you didn't know Born Again and Christian are the same.
I think Cal's reasoning is beyond reproach. Why wouldn't god's will and plan be verifiable/testable? Why do a muslim terrorist and a christian snake-handler rely on the same medical science, use the same math, and perform the same calculations when working with chemistry? Because the math, chemistry, and medical science are all testable, verifiable methods. They work because they've been vetted by numerous tests and challenges by critics.
The ancient greeks didn't want to recognize zero, but they couldn't suppress it because of its usefulness. The same with a heliocentric universe–it just couldn't be suppressed by religious dogma. If "god's plan" were actually knowable, it should have the same quality; it should be unas.sailable, and obvious to those who USE it to verify consistent and quantifiable results.
What's wrong with god's plan that it isn't as obvious and verifiable as math or chemistry? What a stupid god you believers would have us atheists rely on.
Moby, I just wrote this to just sayin above. Same applies to you and all non-believers.
just sayin ... we don't have to prove Jesus. It's the non-believers problem for rejecting His truth and not loving or following Him. What you do is an automatic ride to the eternal flames. Again, not our problem. You own it. The only thing a Christian has to do is to ensure His truth is heard, written, spread. We did that. Toodles. Have a nice ride down, down, down.
@HeavenSent
You merely give another useless non-answer full of assertions that is designed to merely absolve yourself of having to actually answer criticism.
I've stated it many times hawaiiguest in many ways. God exits. It's just atheists refuse to accept Him. Again, not our problem. You own it. When you want to start believing in God, you will. Now, that didn't take a rocket scientist to explain those facts to you.