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 Some atheists may ask questions on the Internet that they wouldn't have asked in church.
August 1st, 2012
12:03 PM ET
'Where was God in Aurora?' comments show Internet as church for atheistsBy Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor (CNN) - The Internet has become the de facto global church for atheists, agnostics and other doubters of God, who of course don’t have bricks-and-mortar churches in which to congregate. We see this phenomenon in motion every day on the CNN Belief Blog, where atheists/agnostics/humanists are among the most zealous commenters. Recent string of posts around the question of “Where was God in Aurora?” (such as this and this) drew especially large waves of comments that show atheists are using the Internet to commune with one another and to confront religious believers in ways that they don’t usually do in church. Atheists and other secularists have offline organizations that stage in-person meetings - the Secular Student Alliance has seen its number of campus chapters quadruple in the last five years, to 368 - but the Internet has probably played a bigger role in the rise of the so-called New Atheism. The movement’s adherents evangelize their godlessness, just as many religious folks evangelize their God, often taking to the Belief Blog to do so. “A lot of millennials who are coming of age have found that the Internet is a fantastic place to talk about their doubt,” says Jesse Galef, communications director for the Secular Student Alliance. “Before the Internet, there was no place for young people to do that. The only place to go was really church, and that wasn’t always a welcoming place. “But they can go online and discuss these ideas without being judged by friends and families,” Galef says. For closeted atheists, the Internet’s anonymity is a big draw. A coalition of national atheist groups recently launched a program to transition doubting clergy to lives of open atheism by first having ministers come out anonymously in a closed online community. Plenty of other atheists, though, are using the Internet to connect with real, named people through Facebook and other online social networks. “It’s the ability to access a larger community, particularly for people growing up in religiously conservative areas,” Galef says. “There is nobody they can point to to discuss their atheism or their doubts about the Bible or their morality, and the Internet provides that.” On Sunday, a guest piece from a Colorado pastor argued that it’s possible to reconcile the idea of a sovereign God with the existence of evil and tragedy. The post has drawn 4,239 comments as of Wednesday morning, largely from atheists. One of those comments - a letter from God penned by an atheist commenter named Colin - caught fire online. Here’s how his letter opens:
The letter has been posted on reddit, where it attracted another 1,000-plus comments. (Warning: The reddit comments includes foul language.) The vast majority of comments come from sympathetic atheists and other secularists (the discussion is reddit's atheism thread), a striking example of such folks doing church without God online. Many of those comments are deeply personal, confessional and poignant. Here are five of the best ones. Some respond to Colin’s letter from God, others to the Colorado pastor who wrote for the Belief Blog last weekend.
That comment, which has been truncated above, provoked an outpouring of sympathy and support on reddit, including this comment:
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In trying to think of a list of the most influential and famous athiests in history, I am becoming a little disturbed...by the way: athiest and agnostic are NOT synonyms...there is a BIG difference...I just keep thinking that the top four most influential have to be:
1. Nietzsche
2. Lenin
3. Freud
4. Stalin
Any problems with this list?
I feel that there is a point somewhere, but I'm not sure where....
And just because they are no synonymous does not mean they are mutually exclusive either.
Should we take 50 pages and list the most brutal Christians to ever live?
Do you really want to go there?
Yeah, big problems, but you won't be dissuaded. You seem to be impressed with history's superstars as a proof of something. Megalomaniacs who wreck their surroundings are no different from the Aurora creep. They just searched long and hard for fame and personal gratification in politics arenas. So what?
I expect it would take little effort to come up with the four most influential Virgos, Capricorn or Geminis in history an imply a causation between their star sign and their notoriety.
@Colin
Hmmm... I'm thinkin' bro, from @Tonyn's idiotic posting that it's time for one of your famous "Top 10 most 'influential' Christians lists"yes ? 😀
Peace...
Peace, you read my mind, dude. I'll get cracking on it....
It is clear that the greatest thinkers in human history have overwhelmingly come to one of two conclusions:
1. That there is some sort of creative force present in the Cosmos. Or,
2. That the ultimate nature of reality is simply unknowable.
None of these great minds would try to ram Biblical dogma down your throat...
Silly.
The internet will be the death of god.
Fictional characters cannot be killed..they never existed.
Funny, Nietzsche said something similar, but only he died.
The reason your post is absolutely correct is that the Internet is, hands down, the most brilliant achievement ever conceived and launched by any organism on the planet. Instant communication worldwide, as if it were the single mind of mankind itself. It is indeed a wonderful world, and the old, archaic, wretched ideas that used to force people into compliance are "over and out!"
I'm wondering, what's the source of all this animosity towards Christians? Granted, there are those (me) who at times can be hypocritical, appear self righteous, and often negligent in extending the love that Christ requires. However, as a general rule, more hospitals have been built, starving people fed, homeless given shelter, orphans taken into families, etc... in the name of Christ than any other source. Add to that the fact that there are countless numbers of Christians who are the kindest, humblest, most compassionate human beings on the planet.
So what gives? Why such vitriol? Actually, these questions are all rhetorical, I already know the source.
Matt I sincerly hope so. Faith Based religion needs to go the way of the dodo. Faith based religion is a parasitic meme feeding off humanity.
A big step to drving faith based religon out of society will be taxing relgion. They need to start taxing these con artists, who enrich themselves by peddleing ancient lies, about what they would like to be true, rather than what is true.
It is time to start Taxing the churches.
I see the main failure of humanity rampant in both sides of this argument. A deep disdain for those who are not like oneself and the impulse to force one mode of thinking and one only on everyone. None of this makes me optimistic for our species ever not being ironic in our definition of humanity.
Bingo!!!!
No it is deep disdain for people who want to legislate their beliefs on and thereby restrict the freedoms of everyone else.
The main problem with atheism is there is no justice.
If there is no God then there is no judgement, there will be no judgement day.
I can't live with people getting away with S**T.
Then let's do away with all courts and our justice system since according to you they are superfluous.
@Svenska
You said, "The main problem with atheism is there is no justice.
If there is no God then there is no judgement, there will be no judgement day.
I can't live with people getting away with S**T."
Please, please, please keep believing in your imaginary friend. I fear for the people around you if you suddenly lost that faith.
And an eternity burning in hell, a punshment an infinite times worse than the death penalty, imposed on millions of people throughout history (according to Christianity) is your idea of "justice". Dear god man, even Hitler didn't come close to such cosmic barbarity.
@svenksa,you stupid
That is why we have jails. So they spend a portion of their oh so limited life deprived of society before they are turned into worm food.
Svenska, you're not thinking to deeply, are you. Is that how you have been taught while under their influence?
So you think inventing a deity for which no evidence can be shown is a better foundation for morals and a system of justice? That's pretty bizarro.
The Golden Rule pre-dates Christianity and is a far better foundation for morals. You should check it out. No god required, & nor does one exist.
Yes because atheists eat babies.
Tell that to the 95% of inmates who are religious.
I thought religion is about forgiveness? If you "can't live with people getting away with S**T", you can't be very religious.
If there is no "higher authority" of any kind ...no matter whether you call it God or by some other name...the only reason it is not OK for me to blow your brains out on the street and take your money is because I might get caught. I think if this were true I might vote Republican...
@tony. You are out in left field without a glove. Stick to your religion. We will all be safer in the long run.
@Tonyn
" If there is no "higher authority" of any kind ...no matter whether you call it God or by some other name...the only reason it is not OK for me to blow your brains out on the street and take your money is because I might get caught. " 😯
What an absolutely idiotic thing to say ! Good christ... the stupidity sometimes by some posters here is absolutely mind-boggling !!!!!!!!!
Peace...
"I can't live with people getting away with S**T" But I take a Svenska every day, wipe, and get away with it.
This is a question which is difficult to answer for Christians who always want to find some grace in tragedy. There is no grace there and this was simply a horrible event. But I think it is wonderful that the Internet allows many doubters to express their views here as we become a more open society. In the past they didn't have the chance to meet or discuss their views and felt a bit isolated. Today there are organizations for non-believers such as http://www.secular.org that have meetings and interesting projects and just good conversation..
Personally, I don't think we can blame God for these killings anymore than we should give him credit for the survivors. He seems to stay out of almost every human event. He doesn't do much that I am aware of.
But people like to use survivors of tragedy to rationalize their faith!
Are we to deny them of this idiotic reasoning?
Actually, it's not very difficult at all. As it has been said, God has given us free will, meaning we are allowed to make choices that could directly affect another person. God does not promise us a life without pain or suffering, and since Satan is the Prince of this Earth right now, there will be much more evil before the end.
Good article, and for a change it was an article that was newsworthy on this blog. Thanks
Funny how a god being there but allowing the death of numerous people while others escaped unharmed and still others suffered the death of friends or life changing injuries turns out just the same as no god being there at all.
I do not believe in god...but I am the most kind hearted person I know. I have worked with the elderly ever since I've been 15. This is my calling in life. I work very hard, do not place judgment upon people and live a very peaceful life. I do not think since you don't believe in god that that makes you damn to burn in hell or any less of a person than other believers. I base my own personal beliefs on what I think a good person is, and I do not need a religion to mold me into that. No disrespect. I'm just saying I am just as good of a person as you are.
You go Karen!
Every Sunday, my schedule permitting, I read the Bible to a group of blind old ladies at the old folks home down the road. They prefer that I do it because the chaps from the church that used to do it would pass the hat at the end and the poorer ladies just don’t have the money give and it made them feel really bad.
No I am not religious.
That's an amazing thing to do. Not because of the religious factor, but you're making those ladies day. Good people exist without religion to guide them.
While I applaud you Arthur I have to ask if you have tried reading them something different? I'm sure they requested the bible but did you ever try to offer suggestions for other readings?
Nope. It is their Sunday Bible reading group and yes I will even read them the really good parts which is something the church people never did.
Dear atheists:
This is God. I hope you are doing well (although I know that some of you are not). Let me say first that it’s ok to doubt me. Many have doubted me throughout the history of the world and I’ve watched people try and figure me out only to give up and then say I don’t exist. That is a fair thing because at least they tried. But I’m going to tell you why most of you don’t believe in me:
“Everything you have been told about me is wrong”
Yes. I can see and do anything I please. But bear in mind I also gave YOU the ability to say and do whatever you wish. You think I want to waste my time controlling every little thing that every human on the planet does? For my sake, I could turn a galaxy into a big bowling alley and have some fun blowing up stars! What about your personal autonomy? Kind of defeats the purpose of autonomy doesn’t it? What happened in Aurora is not because of something I did or didn’t do. It was something one of you did. In fact every killing in history has been a result of something you all did and chose to do. If you truly believe that I do not exist, well then the blood of humanity is on your hands. I’m an easy target to scapegoat because I’m not out trying to convince you to believe in me. That is your personal choice and I respect whatever you choose. But if you don’t believe in me, then stop blaming me when something bad happens or something doesn’t go your way. Also I would appreciate it if you stop making fun of people that find some comfort in believing in me. You may think it’s ridiculous, but I implore you, let them have their comfort because it helps them get through their hard times.
Lastly, I beg you, please do some research on me and actually talk to more people besides your local congregation about why they believe. You might be surprised about what people are saying about me.
Dear god, there is no proof that you exist therefore I will not even consider your post.
@Joshua Allen, stop impersonating me. It is blasphomy and I will send you straight to hell if you do it again.
Unclever.
Dear God,
I've seen the world you've created. And I've looked at what you've done in the past and present. And all I have to say is, "Is this the best you could do?"
Sincerely,
An Atheist
Boring God. As with everything, you are a day late and a dollar short. You are not even original.
Not just on this post, but in your whole made-up bible story. You see, the legends were around for thousands of years before the Jewish goat-herders decided to make up their own fairy tale.
You cannot get anything right. It's ok. You don't exist so it doesn't really matter what you say.
Does this mean God doesn't have a plan? I hear people use the phrases "free will" and "God has a plan" but don't see how they are compatible. If man has free will, God can't have a plan. If God has a plan, then man can't have free will.
I will let this quotation from the brilliant Harvard Psychologist Steven Pinker sum up my stance:
"The problem with the religious solution [for mysteries such as consciousness and moral judgments] was stated by Mencken when he wrote, 'Theology is the effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.' For anyone with a persistent intellectual curiosity, religious explanations are not worth knowing because they pile equally baffling enigmas on top of the original ones. What gave God a mind, free will, knowledge, certainty about right and wrong? How does he infuse them into a universe that seems to run just fine according to physical laws? How does he get ghostly souls to interact with hard matter? And most perplexing of all, if the world unfolds according to a wise and merciful plan, why does it contain so much suffering? As the Yiddish expression says, If God lived on earth, people would break his window."
A belief in a god is intellectual insanity.
Very well said Voice of Reason.
Faith Based Religion is a Parasitic Meme infecting humanity, as both the brilliant philosopher Daniel Dennet and Richard Dawkins have called it.
It is amazing to us outsiders that it appears that the people of the United States would rather elect a President who's platform would consist only of the disillusionment of the legislative branch and the conversion of the office of the President to an inherited theocratic office rather than vote for an nonreligious candidate.
Huh?
Stay outside
Looks like the Christians are starting to feel the heat.....the Internet is like a "church" for atheists like the university is a "church" for professors. The reason "church" was used as a slight to atheists. Christianity and other religions are trying to have their final hurrah before reason wins out. I say, "Let them." It will be a Brave New World once people start to give up texts of people who didn't know the Earth was round.
Isaiah 40:22 (NKJV)
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
@ Workinprogress: Your God's a man?
I do not believe Him to be a "woman."
Women are not as great as men. wip's just following along. That's why he has to quote "women" like they're a weird thing.
Can a Christian please help me? I am having trouble distinguishing the third example of circular reasoning from the first two. Perhaps you can explain the difference.
“I believe Obama is a great man because his biography says so, and the reason I believe his biography is that it is about Obama, who is a great man.”
“I believe David Koresh was a wise and great prophet because the Branch Davidians wrote a book saying he is. I believe that book because it was inspired by David Koresh, a wise and great prophet.”
“I believe God exists because it says so in the Bible. I believe the Bible because it is the inspired word of God.”
It's quite sad that the only "proof" the Bible has is itself.
Colin, did you see the article? CNN's got their eye on you bro...
Actually Rick, can you (or anybody else) give me the link to the Reddit article they reference. I am apparently technologically incapable of getting there myself. I found reddit, but got no further.
The proof is given when you put your faith in God and that is really all that can be said. I don't believe God is true simply because a book says so, but upon reading the Bible and searching for the truth, I accepted Jesus as my Savior and was given ample proof.
Colin, I read the post, and it was awesome as hell.
@WorkInProgress
Please share your ample proof with us please.
Thanks Rick, I was so encouraged to hear about the inroads the internet is making into Christianity. They can't burn the internet, mate.
Dear "Voice of Reason", my proof is personal, within me. Things became much more clearer, as the song goes, "I was blind, but now I see."
I said ti earlier...when the debate is over, and the "believers" have lost...they play that final card...
"you just have to have faith"...
They do it every time..and never ceases to bring a chuckle out of me.
Work in Progress – David Koresh and Charles Manson had innumerable personal experiences telling them they were the messiah, while Mark Chapman had experiences telling him he was Holden Caulfield and a certain kid in Aurora, Colorado, was recently pretty sue he was the Joker from Batman.
Thousands of people also believe they have had personal experiences with angels, sprits, “presences” or ghosts, with aliens who abduct them or with devils that torment them. I think you will agree that the internal, subjective experiences people honestly believe they have are not at all probative of external reality, no matter how comforting to, or involutarily experienced by, the believer they are.
LOL@"WhereWasGod"
I didn't consider this a debate. I know that I cannot change your mind and it is not my place to. We will all see in the end.
Jehovah's invisible qualities are perceived by the things he made. (Just as Koresh's invisible lunacy was percieved by the things he did lol)
wip thinks faith is about knowing the secret handshake. Got to have faith to get faith. Only people who can really taste the kool-aid are the people thirsty for kool-aid.
Christianity is baed on authoritative sources of knowledge rather than reasoned arguments. On the other hand, the internet is decentralized and values criticism based on reasoned arguments over authoritative sources. Your analog fails to take this into account.
For example, the samples you quoted represent summarized criticisms of Biblical claims which are supposedly based on the authoritative word of God rather than reasoned arguments.
Dear "Voice of Reason", my proof is personal, within me. Things became much more clearer, as the song goes, "I was blind, but now I see."
@WorkInProgress
Funny how that works, works. I once believed but I can now see.
Perhaps you do and perhaps you don't.
Work, care to criticize what I actually wrote?
Specifically, it's unclear how "my proof is personal, within me" address my criticism of the author's conclusion.
And this proof that you speak of, it wouldn't happen to be of God's supposed authority, would it? Nor is your claim to "personally" know this to be true represent a good argument. As such, it's unclear how your reply is actually relevant to the issue at hand.
Why do atheists comment on BELIEF blog?! I thought you don't believe in God or you do it secretly?
BTW If us religious people stopped comment here and enterteining the evil people, then would have been bored.
You don't think atheists BELIEVE things?
@"Truth"
Look at a coin. One side is belief. The other side is the lack of belief.
One cannot exist without the other. Non-belief (atheism) is the reverse of the coin.
@Truth. Reasonable people come here to express their ideas about the foolhardiness of irrational people. The general hope is that those who are on the fence (reasonable/irrational) will have an epiphany and realize that the greatest part of being human is our Rationality. The religious folks who ditch reason are being asked to face their error and begin to use their minds. A scant 500 years ago Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for suggesting that the earth was not the center of the Universe. You people are finally losing your grasp on the necks of thinking people. Thank God. ; )-
I've never had cancer. Why do I give money to the ACS? Could it possibly be because I'm not 100% blindly self-interested?
Atheists are lucky they live in a country where they are not executed. Not that some wish they were, but they should consider themselves very, very lucky Americans put up with that.
By the same token US christians should be very happy they are not in Egypt
All atheists living in Christian majority countries live in freedom. Christians are tolerant.
However atheists are spoiled...
We love this country and we are going to fight tooth and nail to restore it to its rational self.
@Trunk
You have way to much junk in that trunk, Trunk
What if you didn't? Would you try to redo the Spanish Inquisition? I'm sure Jesus would approve...
@Bob,
so we should feel 'lucky' that in a country that was founded, in part, on the principle of freedom to exercise (or not exercise) religion, we are not pursued by bigots with guns.
Ok. I feel lucky. Do you feel lucky? Well do ya?
Calling atheist conversations "church without God" rubs me the wrong way. You're not worshipping or venerating something (which is a vital part of church!) by just talking about and debating your lack of faith. Christianity permeates American society to such a degree that you can't blame atheists for seeking out these discussions online – but that doesn't mean they're worshipping something or going to church.
Atheism is a religion and want members. Get over yourself your idiot.
Well said. Christians often try to rationalize their own irrational faith by trying to equate it to that of non-believers. For example claiming that atheism or science requires faith, which obvious neither does. Calling online forums "church" seems to be in the same vain.
No Pippi, you are the idiot. You don't know what you are talking about.
Christians want to believe atheism a religion because in their hearts they know they are wrong. They are ashamed of their religion and want to drag atheists down to their level
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtX_R-V5Cws
This is great!
That was nice. Thank you.
We'll give atheists the internet, and we keep our faith in public. Good deal?
As long as you keep it out of politics!
What happened to first amendment... freedom of religion and speech??
We will allow you to keep your faith in your homes and your private schools and of course your houses of worship BUT we will not allow you in the public forum AND we take the internet, deal?
Pippi:
It has be altered to mean freedom of Christian religion and Christian speech.
@John; "As long as you keep it out of politics!"
You're the ones that keep bringing up with your goofy parades and constant whining.
@was blind, but now I see
You said, "You're the ones that keep bringing up with your goofy parades and constant whining."
While you have the absolute right to freedom of speech and religion, that same right is available to everyone else. That means that your right to religious freedom ends where it meets that of anyone else.
While you are free to believe whatever bullshit you like, stupidity isn't illegal after all, you have no right to expect anyone else fall for that nonsense, too. your right to religious freedom doesn't give you the right to cause anyone else to do, or not do something.
Any argument based on religion is not valid in a rational discussion. Secular law has to be establish on rational discussion. Religious arguments have no place in that discussion. You are free to place additional restrictions upon yourself, if you feel your imaginary friend requires that. But your delusion can't give you additional freedoms, not available to everyone else.
Believe or burn for all eternity.
What kind of " free will " is this ? Is this really want you want to teach your children ?
What to believe ? A 2000 yo book of myths? A member of clergy who has a financial interest in YOU buying what he tells you ?
He promises you eternal life, but what evidence does he offer it is real besides his book of myths ?
Why not start to believe, be loved, faithful and ev. enter kingdom of heaven and paradise, rather than living an evil life like Satan?
One One... you forgot to take a nap today didn't ya?
Bible is 100% truth and is proven. Google and you'll find answers.
Hmmm, the same God that gave His only Son to die on the cross for everybody's sins so that all who put their faith in Him will be eternally saved? You mean that God? I'm so glad to be on His side.
@Turnrosa: “Why not start to believe, be loved, faithful and ev. enter kingdom of heaven and paradise, rather than living an evil life like Satan?”
I am much better loved and am no longer evil now that I have left the church. And if heaven is populated by the kinds of Christians I’ve met on this blog, I can guarantee it will not be “paradise”; but, will be very much like North Korea (communism is just another kind of religion)
workin progress.. why would a god need to do such a stupid thing. why did he need to send "his son anyway... why not come down him self... Could he not come up with a better plan or get a better author who was less ambiguous than the one he hired. which holy book is correct any way the bible or koran The cross just satisfies the blood lust that is inherent in religions...got to have a good killing..more impressive than a goat...This the same god who stands by and allows African children to starve to death, and allow disease to rack the bodies of millions..,glad you are on his side..hes useless and needs some help by the sound of it.
For god so loved mankind that he said "I will destroy man whom I have created from the surface of the ground; man, along with animals, creeping things, and birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
Gen 6:7
workin progress.. why would a god need to do such a stupid thing. why did he need to send "his son anyway... why not come down him self... Could he not come up with a better plan or get a better author who was less ambiguous than the one he hired. which holy book is correct any way the bible or koran The cross just satisfies the blood lust that is inherent in religions...got to have a good killing..more impressive than a goat...This the same god who stands by and allows African children to starve to death, and allow disease to rack the bodies of millions..,glad you are on his side..hes useless and needs some help by the sound of it.
First of all, I will never claim to understand the mind of God, nor can I answer your questions. It sounds as if you need to ask God.
And perhaps we should question the PEOPLE that allow those children to starve to death. We all know that there is plenty of food.
Are you the type that denies God's existence but blame Him for all the suffering?
And since you
@workinprogress: it's a myth.
According to the myth, Jesus was innocent but his dad had him killed to pay for the "sins" of the "guilty".
Is it moral for the innocent to pay for the "guilty".
What kind of morality is that ?
And perhaps we should question the PEOPLE that allow those children to starve to death. We all know that there is plenty of food.
their Christian
and um i do believe in your god i believe in all Gods and Goddesses,..but your is an @ssh0l3 who comment a significant amount of suffering to gain followers
@One one
According to the myth, Jesus was innocent but his dad had him killed to pay for the "sins" of the "guilty".
Is it moral for the innocent to pay for the "guilty".
What kind of morality is that ?
Before Jesus came to Earth, people sacrificed lambs for their sins because sins must be paid, just as if you get a ticket for speeding or commit some other crime. And it was told from the beginning that there would be a perfect lamb that would pay the price for all of our sins, which was Jesus. Is it moral to allow sins to go unpunished?
@Sam Yaza
apparently your Gods and Goddesses are not doing much better...where are they?
workinprogress.. If your god is real, which you think he is,and he is merciful which you claim he is.. why are you surprised when folks call your bluff on such an obvious problem. Of course there is food, and African kids starve because of nature.. drought, disease of crops. over population. If there really is a god you can see how evil he is..to abuse the most innocent and refuse to assist. if you want to continue to love this alien good luck but he has nothing to offer the human race.