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August 4th, 2012
10:00 PM ET
My Faith: The danger of asking God ‘Why me?'
(CNN)–When I was diagnosed with cancer, the question “Why me?” was a natural one. Later, when I survived but others with the same kind of cancer died, I also had to ask, “Why me?” Suffering and death seem random, senseless. The recent Aurora, Colorado, shootings — in which some people were spared and others lost — is the latest, vivid example of this, but there are plenty of others every day: from casualties in the Syria uprising to victims of accidents on American roads. Tsunamis, tornadoes, household accidents - the list is long. As a minister, I’ve spent countless hours with suffering people crying: “Why did God let this happen?” In general I hear four answers to this question. Each is wrong, or at least inadequate. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories The first answer is “I guess this proves there is no God.” The problem with this thinking is that the problem of senseless suffering does not go away if you abandon belief in God. In his Letter from Birmingham Jail, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said that if there was no higher divine law, there would be no way to tell if any particular human law was unjust. Likewise, if there is no God, then why do we have a sense of outrage and horror when suffering and tragedy occur? The strong eat the weak, there is no meaning, so why not? Friedrich Nietzsche exemplified that idea. When the atheist Nietzsche heard that a natural disaster had destroyed Java in 1883, he wrote a friend: “Two-hundred-thousand wiped out at a stroke—how magnificent!” Because there is no God, Nietzsche said, all value judgments are arbitrary. All definitions of justice are just the results of your culture or temperament. My Take: This is where God was in Aurora As different as they were, King and Nietzsche agreed on this point. If there is no God or higher divine law then violence is perfectly natural. So abandoning belief in God doesn’t help with the problem of suffering at all. The second response to suffering is: “While there is a God, he’s not completely in control of everything. He couldn’t stop this.” But that kind of God doesn’t really fit our definition of “God.” So that thinking hardly helps us with reconciling God and suffering. The third answer to the worst kind of suffering – seemingly senseless death – is: “God saves some people and lets others die because he favors and rewards good people.” But the Bible forcefully rejects the idea that people who suffer more are worse people than those who are spared suffering. This was the self-righteous premise of Job’s friends in that great Old Testament book. They sat around Job, who was experiencing one sorrow after another, and said “The reason this is happening to you and not us is because we are living right and you are not.” At the end of the book, God expresses his fury at Job’s ”miserable comforters.” The world is too fallen and deeply broken to fall into neat patterns of good people having good lives and bad people having bad lives. The fourth answer to suffering in the face of an all-powerful God is that God knows what he’s doing, so be quiet and trust him. This is partly right, but inadequate. It is inadequate because it is cold and because the Bible gives us more with which to face the terrors of life. God did not create a world with death and evil in it. It is the result of humankind turning away from him. We were put into this world to live wholly for him, and when instead we began to live for ourselves everything in our created reality began to fall apart, physically, socially and spiritually. Everything became subject to decay. But God did not abandon us. Only Christianity of all the world’s major religions teaches that God came to Earth in Jesus Christ and became subject to suffering and death himself, dying on the cross to take the punishment our sins deserved, so that someday he can return to Earth to end all suffering without ending us. Do you see what this means? We don’t know the reason God allows evil and suffering to continue, or why it is so random, but now at least we know what the reason isn’t, what it can’t be. It can’t be that he doesn’t love us. It can’t be that he doesn’t care. He is so committed to our ultimate happiness that he was willing to plunge into the greatest depths of suffering himself. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter Someone might say, “But that’s only half an answer to the question ‘Why?'” Yes, but it is the half that we need. If God actually explained all the reasons why he allows things to happen as they do, it would be too much for our finite brains. What we truly need is what little children need. They can’t understand most of what their parents allow and disallow for them. They need to know their parents love them and can be trusted. We need to know the same thing about God. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Timothy Keller. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor’s note: Timothy Keller is senior pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York and author of The New York Times best-selling book "
If I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible that main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men had forgotten God; that is why all this has happened.'
– Alexander Solzhenitsyn
If there is a God, it's clear that he/she has forgotten man.
"Had I been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe."
- King Alfonso the Wise of Spain
Love me some Solzhenitsyn
Well, at least you're now quoting somebody worth listening to, even tho he happened to be wrong about this.
Which god might that be? There are so very many in psycholand.
"Listen: if everyone must suffer, in order to buy eternal harmony with their suffering, pray tell me what have children got to do with it? It’s quite incomprehensible why they should have to suffer, and why they should buy harmony with their suffering."
– Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Don't be stupid."
You religious nutters should just learn that phrase and you will be better off.
Another example of superficial nonsense masquerading as deep philosophy.
First we have the old canard that God is required for morality. Actually, it is exactly the opposite: you cannot have an objective morality that is based in God. The reason for this is called Euthyphro Dillema, and is a bit involved; but it can be simplified for a comment here.
If morality is based in Divine Justice, can God change his mind about what is moral and what isn't? For example, can God decide that killing children is the best thing one can do, while saving someone's life is immoral? If he can – if at any moment good can become evil and evil can become good, just by God decreeing so – then God-given morality isn't objective; it is completely arbitrary, based on the momentary whim of God. If God cannot change his mind, if the act of killing a child is always objectively bad (and God makes it a part of Divine Justice because of this objective evil) – then objective morality stems from those objective reasons which are beyond God's decree, and therefore independent of God.
Ignoring this, the writer simply asserts that God is required, and jumps immediately to Nietzchean sarcasm (which even Nietzche used only to illustrate a point), pretending that is the only other conclusion. Here is the word to look up if you want to know otherwise: humanism.
Finally, "God did not create the world with death and evil in it." Really? Has the good pastor read the Bible? Isaiah 45:7 directly says that he did. But even ignoring that, use some simple logic on the basic claims of Christianity.
A decision is not made with free will alone. Put ten different people in the same situation, and they won't all make the same choices – even though all ten, presumably, have free will. Wisdom, understanding of consequences, impulse control... many aspects of personality make the difference in what decision will be made.
God, according to the Bible, knows everything. Everything that was, is, and will be. At the moment God created Adam, he knew that he would eat the apple. He could have created Adam differently – he could have made him wiser, or more skeptical of the snake, more loyal. In all those cases, Adam would have rejected the apple, while still retaining free will. But God didn't do that. He intentionally created the kind of Adam which he knew would eat the apple. And then he punished him for doing something God knew Adam would do at the moment he created him. And now, the world is full of death and evil, and it is not God's fault at all?
Please. Your basic narrative makes no logical sense. You just repeat the same old canards, learned by rote, and never put the minimum of thought into analyzing them. And this then gets published on a national news site. For shame, CNN. For shame.
It only takes a mere 2 hours or so to deduce god away as nothing.
Yes and no, and if you like a maybe. Just start with a question. And with it you nullify any and all god.
Euthyphro dilemma : "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"
It really poses a false dilemma due to the two uses of “objective morality”.
There is no morality independent of God.
There is a morality independent of humans.
“objective morality” then refers to the independence of morality from human definition, not from Gods definition.
@Chad – very nice groundless assertion. Trying to define the problem away just causes a contradiction in your definitions, it does not remove the problem. We can change the challenge to fit your words – can God change the definition of morality? If he can, there is no objective morality. If he cannot, then morality is not based in God.
Perfect illustration of my point, examined in detail:
@M."can God change the definition of morality?"
@Chad "God alone defines morality, there is no definition of morality independent of Him.
@M "If he can, there is no objective morality. If he cannot, then morality is not based in God."
@Chad "perfect capture of the false dilemma. God defines morality, there is no "objective morality" independent of God.
BUT, there is an objective morality with respect to humanity, because God defines morality independent of us.
False dilemma, because of the two different definitions of "objective morality"
@Chad You are, again, simply asserting that "there is no objective morality independent of God." No reasons, no logic, you simply repeat this as if it were a given truth, and you don't respond to the argument.
I am wondering whether this is intentional, simply blind, or correctable in some form. So I will try one last time.
Humanity does not figure here. Leave humanity out of this completely. Let's say we are looking at the moment before creation, where humanity does not exist, nor do its definitions of anything (including morality). The only thing that exists is God, and this God has some definition of morality.
Now, can God change his definition of morality? If yes, this morality is not objective. If no, this morality is based in something other than God.
@M."You are, again, simply asserting that "there is no objective morality independent of God." No reasons, no logic, you simply repeat this as if it were a given truth, and you don't respond to the argument."
@Chad "that's because that's the definition of "objective morality".. right?
To say that morality is "objective" is to say that notions of "right" and "wrong" are universal and fixed for all times.
How is it possible to have that without God? That's exactly why atheists say there is no such thing as objective morality..
right?
====
@M "Humanity does not figure here.... Now, can God change his definition of morality? If yes, this morality is not objective. If no, this morality is based in something other than God."
@Chad "I see the issue you are having.. let me try this:
Morality,/b> is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong).
God's actions are good, by definition, because He defines "good", it is His universe, His reality, He is sovereign, it's His show, God determines morality.
So two points:
1. There is no such thing as "objective morality" when it comes to God. There is no such thing as a definition of good and bad above and beyond God.
2. there is however an "objective morality" when it comes to humanity, because God provides the definition of good and bad independent of what we think of the matter.
more complete coverage here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma#False_dilemma_response
@Chad And yet again, you circle around the question. Now it's the false dilemma response.
Fine. Let's say that God is beyond morality, and that objective morality applies only to humans. We still have the same question: can God change his mind about what is moral for humans to do? If he can, then morality is simply his whim. You try to get around this by defining "objective morality" as "that morality which comes from God," but this is a circular argument (I may similarly simply define objective morality as that which does not come from God, and we'll be at an impasse).
And if he can't change what is moral and immoral for humans, than the foundations of morality stand in something other than God. Back to square one.
(Not to mention that the whole approach is based on pure sophistry. Any willing action – that is, anything that is not a mindless event – is subject to moral judgment, by the very definition of morality. If God existed, and decided to start killing children by randomly smiting them with thunderbolts, humanity would judge him to be a murderous monster. Your exemptions do not stand: having power to do as one wills, or even being a creator of an universe, do not exempt a willing actor from moral judgment. The only way God could be exempt from judgment would be to not even do anything within the universe.)
@M "Fine. Let's say that God is beyond morality, and that objective morality applies only to humans. We still have the same question: can God change his mind about what is moral for humans to do?"
@Chad "He could yes, but He doesnt because God's character(and thus His definition of right and wrong) doesnt change. That is what makes the definition of morality "objective" for humans.
=====
@M "If he can, then morality is simply his whim"
@Chad 'No,it is a reflection of his character, God is not arbitrary/capricious. His character(and thus His definition of right and wrong) doesnt change. That is what makes the definition of morality "objective" for humans.
======
@M "Any willing action – that is, anything that is not a mindless event – is subject to moral judgment, by the very definition of morality. If God existed, and decided to start killing children by randomly smiting them with thunderbolts, humanity would judge him to be a murderous monster"
@Chad "Humanity can have that opinion, but it cant make that judgement(in the sense of being able to declare Him in violation) because the standard of right and wrong comes from God. We cant declare God to be in violation of a moral standard, because He alone determines that standard)"
=====
@M. "Your exemptions do not stand: having power to do as one wills, or even being a creator of an universe, do not exempt a willing actor from moral judgment"
@Chad "yes it does,because God alone determines right and wrong, the standard comes from Him. We can have our opinion, but we cant judge (we cant declare God to be in violation of a moral standard, because He alone determines that standard).
======
so there is an objective moral standard from humanities perspective, but because God is sovereign, He is free to change that definition (but doesnt, because God is unchanging)
In his Letter from Birmingham Jail, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said that if there was no higher divine law, there would be no way to tell if any particular human law was unjust. Likewise, if there is no God, then why do we have a sense of outrage and horror when suffering and tragedy occur? The strong eat the weak, there is no meaning, so why not?
Friedrich Nietzsche exemplified that idea. When the atheist Nietzsche heard that a natural disaster had destroyed Java in 1883, he wrote a friend: “Two-hundred-thousand wiped out at a stroke—how magnificent!”
Because there is no God, Nietzsche said, all value judgments are arbitrary. All definitions of justice are just the results of your culture or temperament.
So what's your point Chad?
Are you saying you agree with Neitzche or not?
Let me guess; "I believe in god because of objective morality and the reason I believe in objective morality is because I believe in god." pretty much sum up your view, Chad?
Virtually all of us recoil from Nietzsche for a reason..
Friedrich Nietzsche[atheist] exemplified that idea. When the atheist Nietzsche heard that a natural disaster had destroyed Java in 1883, he wrote a friend: “Two-hundred-thousand wiped out at a stroke—how magnificent!”
We all recoil from Neitzche because he didn't understand Punctuated Equilibrium.
HEY! Have you guys heard about Punctuated Equilibrium? All you professional biologists have probably never heard of it. You should read about it in WikIpedia, so next time you won't look SO FOOLISH!
Wow, what an amateur Nietzsche was. The Christian god drowned the entire planet because he was pi.ssed off at a few Arabs and Jews.
@Chad
I don't, and not to be contrarian either. Although magnificent might be putting it strongly, tragedy from disasters differs depending on person and location. For instance today in Wisc. people there are probably sad, scared, confused, etc... Around America people feel it a little less. In England it's Americans killing Americans and in China it's Sunday.
To go even further, think about when we speak of war and battles and regardless of who comes out the winner, there's a human cost, and yet when we hear that we killed X taliban don't we also say, "magnificent"
Nietzsche has it right, although he's a little too nihilistic for my taste he makes a point that it all depends on culture and temperament.
Special Alert from Chadwatch:
Don't worry, Chad is not ignoring your replies. He is searching for which Christian Apologetics website to cut and paste from. If all else fails, he can fall back on Wikipedia.
Chad doesn't even know who Nietzsche is – on another page of this thread he actually said, "I'm not at all familiar with nihilism" (see page 28 of this thread, August 5, 2012 at 8:50 pm). How could you know Nietzsche and not be familiar with nihilism? Just more of Chad's dishonesty.
The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer.
Dumb. When you can show any evidence that God exists, let us know.
If thieves REALLY never encountered police officers, there wouldn't be so many of them in jail. Bad analogy. Please play again soon.
cut out your frontal lobe - you're not using it anyway.
Jesus came to help us bear our troubles not take them away. Free will is the whole reason why evil is not swept away. The flames that burneth forever but consumeth not have never flared so gleefully in all this time.
Actually, Jesus came to mow the lawn and trim the hedge, but it's nice that he hauls away the trash while he's here.
So, I will let me two year old child touch a hot hot stove burner. I bear no responsibility for his burns.
Wow. Now, worship me.
How to trap an atheist: Serve him a fine meal, then ask him if he believes there is a cook.
That's pretty stupid. Did you make that up all by yourself?
A dead christian contributes more to the earth than a live one.
Are you the cook or is it an unknown man that you have hiding somewhere and can never be seen or heard from and I have to take it on faith that there's really a chef back there vs. the more likely senario that you cooked the meal....
Yeah ,that's a terrible analogy, and thats why Reagan was also an as.shole president too
That makes no sense at all.
The atheist would undoubtedly respond, "Yes, I believe in Gordon Ramsey, but I'm still waiting for a visit from the sky fairy."
how to trap a christian?
ask for evidence.
Okay, NOW I see why you mainly just copy and paste Bible verses instead of treating us to your own original "thinking".
He will not believe there is a cook because he will not accept anything on blind faith.
However, based on the evidence, the physical meal he has just eaten, he may accept the hypothesis that there is a cook somewhere although it may not be in the kitchen of the house he is currently sitting in. He will confirm this by seeking out the actual cook and observing him/her actually cooking.
How does that trap an Atheist? An Atheist would simply go find the cook.
@Ransom
I truly don't understand what you are talking about in your posts below. Would you mind elaborating a bit ?
Peace...
Atheists like to think that believing humans are special is stupid and wrong.But when a something bad happens such as death war etc they often complain to the religious demanding to know where was "their god".If they talk like that,they must think us humans are worthy to be saved from anything and no this has nothing to do with morals.
nope. wrong again. we ask where is your god because after a hurricane that kills tens of thousands, it's pretty good proof there is no god. it doesn't mean we think we're special - we're just pointing out how illogical the idea of an all loving god that lets thousands die in a natural disaster is. get it?
So you deny what science has proven about what is natural for earth? Science has already confirmed the why.Rain is natural.When it rains to much it floods.Etc.
You are an idiot.
@Ransom
Hey -Ransom...
O.K... thanks for elaborating a bit.
I can't necessarily speak for what's on the minds of for all atheists... but I 'think' IMO is that atheists are suggesting if the 'theists' believe that humans are (special), and then when senseless tragedy happens.... they ask 'why' 'if'.... there exists such a loving God that 'theists' believe in, did God allow such tragedies to happen, if... we humans, in fact 'are' so 'special'.
Peace...
It seems that believers like the idea that someone, or something is in charge. Kind of like an all powerful daddy in the sky. See's all, and knows all. Everything is under control. No need to worry. Just believe. People feel they need to be supervised. It gives them meaning. After all, if they are important enough to be supervised, maybe there is some meaning to this whole thing. It seems like self imposed chains to me. I already have real supervisors in my life. I dont need to make up any more.
"God, why me?" – Thats an easy one to answer. Asking God is not going to get you an answer. Asking God anything will not get you an answer. God doesnt answer because God doesnt exist. You might want to take a look at why you continue to need to believe in fairy-tails. You might get some answers there.
Got that right.
Why not quote sam harris instead of nietzche.sam is well alive and can show you how baseless religions and beliefs are....
I find the idea that I evolved from an amoeba to be a fairy tale of the highest order.
Most of evolutionary science is theory, not proven fact. The idea that something can
come from nothing is scientifically false in itself. Science has no answer to the question
of ultimate origin.
It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist.
troll, of the highest order...
Where did the Universe come from?
NOBODY KNOWS!
Isn't an honest answer preferable to a fairy tale that some ignoramus made up 4000 years ago?
Post by 'John 14:6' is an instance of a Straw Man fallacy with Suppressed Evidence, and is a case of Willed Ignorance.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Be gone troll!!
If you knew anything about quantum physics (AKA science), you would know that something can, in fact, come from nothing.
It happens all the time and is not extraordinary at all.
laws of thermodynamics disagree with you.
Nope. ALL of evolutionary science is theory, not proven fact. The word "fact" does not appear in the scientific method.
It is however the best theory we have right now. You must define "nothing". Actually "nothing" in nthe metaphysical sence is not observed in this universe, (see Krauss, "A universe from Nothing".) What ever they decide the beginning may have been, it will likely not be testable, and remain outside science. That does not give one the right to make up fables. Virtual particles come and go "out of nothing" all the time. You just have not studied physics. Science may not have all the answers, but your two year old behavior, in demanding them all, right now, does not mean you get to get one handed to you by mommy universe, because you stomp your foot. Grow up.
So this means many atheists think humans are special enough to be saved? By this logic,well it makes many atheists look stupid.By this I mean,some are hypocrites.So we humans are special?
Special enough to be saved from death,sickness,war,pain etc and all the other crap atheists whine about?
Post by 'Ransom' is an instance of a Straw Man fallacy and is Begging the Question.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Dude, it's bad enuf when you start talking to yourself, but when you start answering yourself, it's time to seek professional help.
hahaha.
as usual, you completely got it backwards.
atheists do NOT think humans are special. we do not have a special place in the universe. we weren't created to rule all others or any of that gibberish. we are tiny in the scope of the universe. we are insignificant.
only with religion do we have a special place, favorite pets of the creator.
think before you type. try it. once. pls.
This post uses the lamest forms of circular logic. In order to give some sort of answer to where god is during tragedies, the writer is assuming he exists and that the stories about Jesus or true. Then the assumption that god exists leads back to this question. This article is meaningless and an example of the muddled thinking behind religion.
Seem to be a lot of non-believers hanging out in the belief blog.
Why do people feel the need to chastise someone for their beliefs.
That's not very kind.
atheist articles are posted here too.
so are hindist, islamist, taoist, buddhist, jewish, etc. ALL articles having to do with religion are posted here.
so go cry somewhere else. don't like the criticism? leave the cult.
When deluded gullible people believe in leprachauns, gods, fairies, etc. then incredulous people like myself come to gawk at you flat Earthers since you people are in the majority here in the US and rule our government and we fear you. We just hope you don't drag us all back to the dark ages.
"Mommy, I believe that if I stick this fork into this electrical outlet, chocolate will rain down on me out of the sky."
"That's nice, dear, I certainly wouldn't want to chastise you for that belief, because that wouldn't be very kind. Can I watch?"
Because religion kills, and frankly we rational thinkers are sick of you psychos trying to impose your psychosis on the rest of us. Next time one of you psycho-zealots knocks on my door to spread the bile you call "good news" I intend to introduce you to a couple of friends of mine. Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson. God Bless.
Could it be we're trying to help you see the error in your belief system?
The serpent in the garden of Eden was the friend of mankind. He (correctly) told Eve that eating the fruit would give her the knowledge of good and evil, something that was possessed by God.
When God discovered the hapless couple had eaten the forbidden fruit, God says, 'Behold, Adam has become like one of us, knowing evil and good.' Then he said, 'Let us cast him out of Paradise, lest he take from the tree of life, and live forever.'
What a rotten POS God must be. Even the serpent pointed this out to God, who wasn't a very good sport about at all (hence the horror of life that we and all living things must endure).
Expanding on this theme, Harlan Ellison wrote an excellent novelette, "The Deathbird". Highly recommended.
"[God] puts an apple tree in the middle of [the Garden of Eden] and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha." It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it...Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
- Douglas Adams
Yeah.... right. Talking snake. I know a guy who had a dog that would talk to him. Son of Sam, currently a devout christian.
Well surprise surprise.
Can we at least dispel one myth? Namely, that all Christians, you know the ones who believe in the sky fairy/ancient book written by goat herders/ Bronze Age dolts, yada yada yada, are all half ass, ignorant Cretans. In reality, there are countless engineers, physicians, scientists, mathematicians etc... who both concur and embrace Historical Christianity. I realize it bolsters your position to relentlessly ridicule, but it's blatantly disingenuous.
Frivolous analogies included.
but there are unicorns in the bible! and satyrs and dragons and c.ockatrice and talking snakes and talking donkeys....
what part doesn't sound real to you?!?
Booty. Try and stay focused. The issue was equating all Christians with inferior intelligence. The fact that I had to type this is an irony that is not unnoticed.
And Isaac Newton, one of the most brilliant people who ever lived, believed in alchemy and spirits, too. Just because the human brain is capable of compartmentalizing mutually contradictory thots — an excellent evolutionary adaptation to a confusing world — doesn't mean that ridiculous ideas are any less ridiculous because they live only a few neurons away from a profound understanding of quantum mechanics.
If you're referring to scientists, etc. who lived in past centuries during which the only IN thing to do was to be religious, then you have already answered yourself. They are all discredited. Gee, if one were to rock the boat by professing even the middle-ground of agnosticism (let alone atheism), then they would have either been executed (at the worst) or they would have lost their funding and thus become unemployed. Hmmmmmmmmm.........
"In reality, there are countless engineers, physicians, scientists, mathematicians etc... who both concur and embrace Historical Christianity"
LOL. scientists have the highest rate of non-belief of any profession.
Why do I get the feeling that you perceive these "ideas" as "ridiculous", because you oh so much want them to be?
Well Booty – I believe david is talking about the overall level of animosity displayed here against Christians. I think part of what brings that out in atheists such as myself is that Christians often don't know how to start a discussion without pasting some part of scripture. Absolutely not helpful. May as well be conversing with a brick wall if you're just going to recite from that book.
@david
Hey -david...
" In reality, there are countless engineers, physicians, scientists, mathematicians etc... who both concur and embrace Historical Christianity. "
Just to be clear... I am 'not' condemning nor criticizing what you said.
I did a quick search of the N.A.S. (National Academy of Sciences). It appears that anywhere from 85 – 95 % are not Christians, and therefore would certainly 'not' embrace "Historical Christianity." They are engineers, physicians, scientists, mathematicians, etc...
So, I wouldn't say that Christians are idiots, etc... however, I find the over-whelming % of scientists that 'don't' believe statistic... interesting considering your post.
Peace...
Zeus. With all due respect, you live in a time warp.
Even so-called intelligent people fear death... hence their belief in god and me. Call that a swing and a miss mister christian.
" I believe david is talking about the overall level of animosity displayed here against Christians"
they don't think it through. if their daughter or son came home and said, "daddy, mommy - i joined a cult today!" think mom and dad would be happy? well, atheists are generally not happy that most of the country they live in is part of the cult called christianity.
also, christians cry that we are being mean every single time we criticize them. yes, lots of insults thrown out by atheists - but even when it's an honest criticism of religion, christians cry foul.
and btw, christians are just as caustic. scroll down and read how many times we get told "you'll burn in hell". wishing eternal torture on an atheist isn't considered animosity? telling us we will suffer FOREVER is worse than being told you're ignorant. sowwy.
realpeace.I don't particularly care for the term "appears" when discussing statistics. Granted, I would agree that a greater percentage of scientists are not people of faith. This fact does not falsify anything I stated
Bootyfunk write "and btw, christians are just as caustic. scroll down and read how many times we get told "you'll burn in hell". wishing eternal torture on an atheist isn't considered animosity? telling us we will suffer FOREVER is worse than being told you're ignorant. sowwy."
Yes I agree and have notice that – especially in some of the articles where the christians were targeting gays.
heavensnot. And those Christians(?) are bufoons.
@david
Hi -david...
" realpeace.I don't particularly care for the term "appears" when discussing statistics. "
You're right... "my bad". The statistics overwhelmingly show that the majority of scientists are definitely 'not' people of faith, and therefore, most certainly would 'not' embrace "Historical Christianity."
You Said: " Granted, I would agree that a greater percentage of scientists are not people of faith. This fact does not falsify anything I stated. "
Well, if your premise is that all Christians aren't necessarily morons, idiots, etc... I would agree with you.
Regards,
Peace...
realpeace. Then we would agree. That is my premise.
I was reacting to this all inclusive notion that acceptance of the Christian faith necessitates the loss of ones intellect. Of course, this is simply subterfuge.
I have always been fascinated with the reality that a greater percentage of intellects are not people of faith. In addition, I find it divinely amusing that there is no small percentage of Christians who are not the "' sharpest tools in the shed". ( Truth be known, there are times when I'm in that shed). What I find equally fascinating, is that academic acuity is never a prerequisite for spiritual comprehension of truth. Any cursory reading of Scripture will reveal that that is by design.
@david
Hey -david..
" What I find equally fascinating, is that academic acuity is never a prerequisite for spiritual comprehension of truth. Any cursory reading of Scripture will reveal that that is by design. "
What... "spiritual comprehension of *truth* " ???
" Any cursory reading of Scripture will reveal that that is by design. "
You, are now getting into 'inferring' that (Scripture) because it is written in your book somehow= *means* what ? There *is* a God ? And, said God, 'revealed'... which makes it *THE TRUTH OF GOD*, ???
Without further information from you... your argument is a 'begging the question' fallacy.
More information, please !
Regards,
Peace...
realpeace On the chance that you're still lingering on this thread:
"What spiritual comprehension of truth ?" I'm referring to the fundamental recognition that we are created beings, the product of a Supernatural Creator, who has revealed to us certain information about our condition. Specifically, that this concept of sin ( I know this term is not en vogue) has infected our world and every fiber of our being and whose end result is death. This "comprehension" also includes the understanding that this Creator has designed a specific remedy by which our human condition can be rectified. Of course, you know I'm referring to the plan of redemption presented in the Bible. In short, to answer your question, it is my belief that embracing the euangelion is true spiritual comprehension. To use an over used quote," There is a God shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus." Pascal
Like many things in life, we come to this discussion with our own presuppositions, and the result is "never the twain shall meet." I realize, more than likely, you come to the table firm in your naturalism. The possibility of the supernatural is not on your menu and you are content with the concepts of random chance, the scientific method and rationalism. I am not. And not because those concepts don't make me feel good, rather because it is my opinion that they do not explain spiritual truth.
David
I'll pose a semi-simple question to any religious person and see if they can answer HONESTLY:
Q: If you were born in another part of the world, anywhere, and brought up to believe the particular religion of your people, wouldn't you be just as committed to what your elders tell you, just as you are to your current religious beliefs?
I'll answer for you: "YES"
(If you post a "No way man, somehow I'd know the difference" then I BELIEVE you are either very nieve or just lying to yourself)
Here's a bonus question: If Jesus or [insert diety here] is "the way" and you need to confess, wear a Burqa, or the common favorite religious pasttime shared by many: stone people to death, before getting in upstairs or perhaps you were born on a deserted island or born before the aforementioned diety and their rules were drawn up, does that mean you are just plain pooched because you didn't know or follow their strict entrance policy?
P.S. This is my very first and probably only post because as Ron White said: "You can't fix stupid". I know the haters gotta hate so enjoy evading this question with jibberish attacking either a misspelled word (gotta is got to) or anything that detracts from the point. Peace out!
The Bible actually addresses this question directly. See Romans 9. What you speak about is debated even among the religious. Its not just an antheistic question.
If you really desire to know the biblical postion, then you'll take the time and look it up.
@Adam G in NC: Who's version or bible should I get these "facts" from? Don't answer because it was a rhetorical question.
I prefer to NOT get my "facts" in a book where someone supposedly lived in a fish for three days (Jonah and the Whale I think). I honestly don't care what others believe in and I'm not a religion-hater either; so long as they don't try and blow me up because I don't cover my girl in a couch cover.
No points awarded for referring me to a human-written, fictional book.
HeavenSentJustSayin, does your Jesus wear a thong? It's a crucial question for you in this thread.
I have to say this is one of the best articles I've read on CNN faith blog yet!
People really need to ponder what's written here!
PRISM 1234, does your Jesus wear a thong?
we have. that's why we're atheists. perhaps you should.
@booty – that comment is what makes most of the atheists that post just as bad as the black & white Christian. You assume that anyone who ponders this question "for real" must come to the conclusion that there is no God. You're just as close-minded as all the religious out there walking around condemning everyone for not seeing the world the way they see it.
PRISM 1234, does your Jesus wear a thong?- A leper called Tina
"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" – The Word of God, Rev. 19:11-16
See how does this compare to the imagination your perverted, degenerate mind....
THAT IS the Christ you will face , and He will be YOUR JUDGE!
The ever so mounting difficulties of our time would cause any person to question their faith & their own personal belief system. In that system of processing those things which elude our natural mind, we must at some point settle that the greatest thinkers in history failed to answer quite a bit more than they obtained in their understanding & they certainly, even at the height of their skill set were unable to elude an inevitable natural death that no man can evade. Now, I cannot speak for others beliefs & how others view their god, but in speaking humbly on the behalf of Abba Father, YHWH God, the God of the Bible, I can relay this. It is recorded that even at the height of the Aurora tragedy, at the pinnacle of the shooting spit fire from the haters of Christ who excitedly seek to disprove His authenticity because they define Him as a phony based on what they see as His Father’s (the God of Heaven’s) failure to show up, curtail, fix, mend.... two things must be considered in this equation. Firstly why are people looking for a God to show up who they profess not to believe in & secondly, why are so many people looking for God to come when they have not invited Him in (asked Him into their personal lives). At the end of the day after the blood was spilled & death made it’s grand entrance; the people of God, the Christians gathered for prayer, not because we had the answers or that we are somehow better than those who don’t believe what we believe, but because even at the center of despair, we feel an undying need to taste our Father’s grace when all else seems to be lost.
“But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. (11 Cor. 12:9)
Make no mistake, it is not the atheists, agnostics, non-believers who expect some "god" to show up to set things right. It is people like YOU....those that profess a belief in a magical sky fairy. We non-believers already know the answer. There will be no intervention by any imaginary divinity. Thank you.
@ anthony
in all seriousness, before you can call yahweh all loving and compassionate, you have to explain all the evil acts he committed in the bible. he sent bears to kill children, struck children dead in egpyt to punish the pharoah, told abraham to sacrifice his child, drowned millions of children in his great flood. that is not a god of love and compassion. that is evil.
so the question is, how can you worship such an evil deity? no insult intended here. serious question.
what do you define as people like you? You and I live, eat, breath, walk, run, cry, shout, smile, shop, sleep, watch TV... the only difference that is glaring is that you are angry because my moral code fails to meet you standard. On my end, I count it a good thing when men can share and grow even in the midst of their diversities. If two men like to different teams in the NFL, does that make one man less than the other?
Greetings Booty Funk. I appreciate the way that you have approached. All too often people seemed content to harp on where the disagree as opposed to where they can share in depth and find understanding in diversity. Too many Christians are afraid to simply say; I don't know. I' don't know why God has mercy on whom He has mercy. I don't know why God has compassion where He desires. I don't know why there are so many casualties in the natural atmosphere of our daily lives, but I do no this; my belief works for me because I know where I was without Christ & I can certainly attest to where I have come with him. Now, I pose the same question to you. what ever your belief system, moral code or religious standard; has it answered all things to you and for you for your gain, understanding and immortality?
I just viewed scientists explaining why atheists don't believe in God is due to not having activity in their frontal lobes.
Anthony, there is no "W" in the Hebrew alphabet. It's YHVH.
Actually, if you're going to be technical about it, there's no Y, H, or V in the Hebrew alphabet, either.
This just in... God saw fit to shoot up a sikh temple in wisconsin. God hates muslims. Lets face it... god, in all his loving wisdom hates you all. Good luck with that.
god let people get shot at a christian church too. guess he hates christians:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/07/2-dead-2-injured-in-georgia-church-shooting/
2 Kings 2:23-24
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
Yes, Yahweh is indeed a good-hearted, well-wishing, even-keeled, easy-going god. Can't even take a little joking from kids. HA HA HA HA!
Stephen Colbert says bears are godless killing machines. but it seems they are actually god-filled killing machines...
It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant atheists are.
Please explain, Mike.