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August 4th, 2012
10:00 PM ET
My Faith: The danger of asking God ‘Why me?'
(CNN)–When I was diagnosed with cancer, the question “Why me?” was a natural one. Later, when I survived but others with the same kind of cancer died, I also had to ask, “Why me?” Suffering and death seem random, senseless. The recent Aurora, Colorado, shootings — in which some people were spared and others lost — is the latest, vivid example of this, but there are plenty of others every day: from casualties in the Syria uprising to victims of accidents on American roads. Tsunamis, tornadoes, household accidents - the list is long. As a minister, I’ve spent countless hours with suffering people crying: “Why did God let this happen?” In general I hear four answers to this question. Each is wrong, or at least inadequate. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories The first answer is “I guess this proves there is no God.” The problem with this thinking is that the problem of senseless suffering does not go away if you abandon belief in God. In his Letter from Birmingham Jail, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said that if there was no higher divine law, there would be no way to tell if any particular human law was unjust. Likewise, if there is no God, then why do we have a sense of outrage and horror when suffering and tragedy occur? The strong eat the weak, there is no meaning, so why not? Friedrich Nietzsche exemplified that idea. When the atheist Nietzsche heard that a natural disaster had destroyed Java in 1883, he wrote a friend: “Two-hundred-thousand wiped out at a stroke—how magnificent!” Because there is no God, Nietzsche said, all value judgments are arbitrary. All definitions of justice are just the results of your culture or temperament. My Take: This is where God was in Aurora As different as they were, King and Nietzsche agreed on this point. If there is no God or higher divine law then violence is perfectly natural. So abandoning belief in God doesn’t help with the problem of suffering at all. The second response to suffering is: “While there is a God, he’s not completely in control of everything. He couldn’t stop this.” But that kind of God doesn’t really fit our definition of “God.” So that thinking hardly helps us with reconciling God and suffering. The third answer to the worst kind of suffering – seemingly senseless death – is: “God saves some people and lets others die because he favors and rewards good people.” But the Bible forcefully rejects the idea that people who suffer more are worse people than those who are spared suffering. This was the self-righteous premise of Job’s friends in that great Old Testament book. They sat around Job, who was experiencing one sorrow after another, and said “The reason this is happening to you and not us is because we are living right and you are not.” At the end of the book, God expresses his fury at Job’s ”miserable comforters.” The world is too fallen and deeply broken to fall into neat patterns of good people having good lives and bad people having bad lives. The fourth answer to suffering in the face of an all-powerful God is that God knows what he’s doing, so be quiet and trust him. This is partly right, but inadequate. It is inadequate because it is cold and because the Bible gives us more with which to face the terrors of life. God did not create a world with death and evil in it. It is the result of humankind turning away from him. We were put into this world to live wholly for him, and when instead we began to live for ourselves everything in our created reality began to fall apart, physically, socially and spiritually. Everything became subject to decay. But God did not abandon us. Only Christianity of all the world’s major religions teaches that God came to Earth in Jesus Christ and became subject to suffering and death himself, dying on the cross to take the punishment our sins deserved, so that someday he can return to Earth to end all suffering without ending us. Do you see what this means? We don’t know the reason God allows evil and suffering to continue, or why it is so random, but now at least we know what the reason isn’t, what it can’t be. It can’t be that he doesn’t love us. It can’t be that he doesn’t care. He is so committed to our ultimate happiness that he was willing to plunge into the greatest depths of suffering himself. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter Someone might say, “But that’s only half an answer to the question ‘Why?'” Yes, but it is the half that we need. If God actually explained all the reasons why he allows things to happen as they do, it would be too much for our finite brains. What we truly need is what little children need. They can’t understand most of what their parents allow and disallow for them. They need to know their parents love them and can be trusted. We need to know the same thing about God. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Timothy Keller. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor’s note: Timothy Keller is senior pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York and author of The New York Times best-selling book "
@Rev. Keller,
You say: As different as they were, King and Nietzsche agreed on this point. If there is no God or higher divine law then violence is perfectly natural.
And your sources to refute the notion that “I guess this proves there is no God.” are Rev. King and Nietzsche??
Frankly I am incredulous at the willful naïvety of this assertion. Rev. King is clearly no expert on atheism and Nietzsche is the prince of nihilism.
Atheism is not the same as nihilism. Where are all the other more reasoned thinkers on atheism that you could have quoted. You ignore them because they destroy your premise.
All cultures establish a sense of morality. You don't need a burning bush and graven tablets to realize that killing, stealing and lying are self-evidently wrong. People want to be happy. Living a 'good' life is the surest way of finding contentment that I am aware of.
I like to suggest that people have an intrinsic desire for goodness and face the challenge of realizing that selfishness is the path to discontent. Furthermore I suggest they are not stained by original sin needing God's grace to illuminate a pathway to goodness. All good comes from decisions made within. "God" is not only unnecessary but non-existent.
What you call "God's will" is either human selfishness or the random chaos of an entropic universe.
All cultures try to establish a morality. For example in India there is pressure for a widow to throw herself on her husband's funeral pyre and burn alive. In even modern China there is forced abortion, women walking behind their 'men' and infanticide is common in China and INdia & even the US Senate did not have the 'cajones' to come up with a toothless piece of legislation simply affirming gender-based abortion was wrong.
What of the butchers down through history (or let's just stay in the 20th century: amin, hitler, pol pot, mao tse tung, Ceacescu, etc etc etc)...they thought they were doing 'good'...
Seems to me GOPer not, that mankind is woefully lacking morals and that society cannot come up with what is proper. Even after WWII the best they could charge the Nazis with was 'taking away civil rights' (when being prosecuted for the murders of Jews, Gypsies, gays and those who protected them...
Keep your morality Atheists...we don't want it or need it. It sucks....
BJ, how easily your forget the atrocities done in the name of your god. Be honest: Is burning people because they were accused of being witches somehow morally justifiable? Was it okay that thee indigenous populations of the Americas were considered less than human by conquering Europeans, then enslaved or killed because they didn't believe in the christian god? How do you excuse the torture and murder of jews during the inquisition? How do you rationalize Hitler's actions?
Human beings are capable of great evil. Religion isn't an effective deterrent, but it has been used since the dawn of time as an excuse for some of the most heinous behavior imaginable.
You think the Chinese people enjoy government intrusion on their rights to reproduce and consider that morally correct? Absurd! Yet of course you didn't live through Mao's forced famines and have no comprehension of the perils of overpopulation. Doubtless there are people in China who see it as logical – but I wouldn't assume they represent a majority opinion.
No despotic dictator ever behaved in a way that was anything but morally reprehensible – it's pretty much the definition of a despot. To think their actions were considered morally acceptable by the people is again, absurd. There is of course a surfeit of historical evidence to suggest that people will live contrary to their sense moral rect.tude if they are forced to live in fear, which only makes their crimes against humanity worse.
You make the misunderstanding that abortion is morally wrong in the absolute. It may contravene your sense of conscience, and you have the choice not to use that procedure; but morality is a consensus of conscience for the whole communitiy – not just a minority opinion. There are topics where no true moral consensus exists. I think it's fair to say that abortion is one of these topics, just like ho-mose-xuality.
The above comment is directed at BJ.
Emphasizing further. There is a distinction between personal conscience and morality. Surely you understand this distinction. They can clearly be at variance.
Haven't actually read King or Nietzsche, but frankly i don't beleive they were really truly atheist. Atheism is everything that we learned in the late 20s of the xxth century. Atheists were killed because of being non beleivers throughout the centuries, the entire idea is just developing right here, right now, we are all part of it. Prsonally i think of religions as a set of used behaviour pieces, memes, from Mr Dawkins' pen. It was and just a matter of evolution which set thrives, and where i leads. _Because_ everything what we _beleive_ about religions, influences their future at the current state of technology. Religions fight for their lives currently, and who knows what we're killing? This not the case of dodos, i think it's rather like bees extinction – hopefully still survivable on a level of memetic extinctionn – if really necessary. As an atheist, i beleive mine is the hardest religion: i can't beleive in god, i don't really hope, not everybody is capable of fighting life without theese feelings. If religion is just a dead end of evolution, it might have been long enought, for a subset of genes to get adapted to it.
@Schreck,
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., was a Christian minister. Hardly a reliable source in debunking atheism, wouldn't you say?
Pardon me, to doubt what you are saying, i was a great fan entropism, as i was using the idea to answer the mening of life. This all lasted as long ad i tried to convinc a fairly skilled atheist biologist friend of mine, who explained all my thoughts about entropism were wrong, and people like Dawkins himself were up until now unble to tell the border between living and dead material for example.
@Chad, (reposted in the right place)
and don't give me the new covenant verus old covenant rhetoric on slavery.
If "Christians" only focused on the new covenant, we wouldn't have any questions around gay marriage.
Ooops – posted in the wrong place again!!
@Shreck,
yes, the notion of sentience is an interesting one. Alive / dead is pretty straightforward no? Living organisms reproduce. Bacteria, viruses etc are living. At what point does something become sentient? It is hard to say.
The Bible, Jehovah God's inspired words to us tells us that God has nothing to do with what happens here on earth. The Bible clearly states that "unforeseen occurances befall us all " No one escapes tragedies or illnesses or accidents or death. The wages sin pays is death. We lost perfect human life on a paradise earth because of our first human parents., Adam and Eve. At that moment we because spiritually dead in the eyes of our Creator. But because he loved his creations and the earth he made for us so much he put into action a plan immediately following their sin and disobedience to their Creator. So, no God doesn't cause bad things to happen to his creations or his earth. Man alone is responsible for all the bad and corruption of the earth and lives. We put our faith in the ransom sacrifice that Jehovah God's son Jesus made for us. He came to preach about his Father's real Kingdom that would come to earth one day in the future. He also while preaching first to the Nation of Israel the chosen nation taken out for God's name, he then allowed Jesus to open up the "keys of the Kingdom" to other fleshly nations and if they accept Jesus and his Father they were then welcomed into that spiritual Israel. Jesus showed us that by resurrecting and healing illness such as giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf that he would be capable under his Father's Kingdom to resurrect untold millions back to Earth after the Great War of Jehovah's when wicked people and worldy governments are destroyed for good., Then all living will be living under that Kingdom government that Jesus taught his followers to pray for. So,, no we do well not to ask God why me, but we should be praying for his Son, Jesus to come soon and rid this world of evil (Satan and his demons) and all forms of inadequate human forms of government and subject ourselves to the Creator's rule. Then man will live in true peace and security forever.
Wow. I bet your taco is just nasty.
Christianity in a nutsh.ell. A deity allegedly creates the first "perfect" humans out of dirt. (How incest was avoided when this first family populated the earth is anybody’s guess). They "sinned" by eating fruit out of a magic tree at the behest of a talking snake. To correct this problem this same god killed every living thing on the planet with a global flood except for a family and two of everything else living (why this god didn’t see another problem with incest when repopulating the earth is anybody’s guess). Later, when humans went on their merry way and started "sinning" again this same god ra.ped the virgin wife of this guy named Joseph in order to recreate itself (why it couldn't do the dirt thing again is anybody's guess). At the end of this offspring's life it shows up, attracts unwanted attention and commits suicide by cop in order to atone for the "original" sin that its own creation committed (why this omniscient god didn't see that coming is…… anybody's guess). But actually it didn't atone or sacrifice anything cause what good is flesh and blood to a god anyway. It just went back to its original form and fluttered off to the sky. So now we are all supposedly waiting for a battle between this god and the talking snake, bad stuff happens, you die, he dies, she dies, everybody dies and those that believed in the god live for eternity in a lobotomy-like bliss.
......and christians think hindu's are whacko.
we should be praying for his Son, Jesus to come soon and rid this world of evil
Don't hold your breath. He was supposed to be back about 2,000 years ago.
@sybaris
"suicide by cop" LMFAO !!! 😀
Peace...
Religion has people anxiously hoping for the end of the world. Such a pity.
If I could only stop beating off to Mein Kampf.
Translated My Struggle. mom said I would go blind, not yet, wa*nk on.
The author does a very, very good job
But God did not abandon us. Only Christianity of all the world’s major religions teaches that God came to Earth in Jesus Christ and became subject to suffering and death himself, dying on the cross to take the punishment our sins deserved, so that someday he can return to Earth to end all suffering without ending us.
Do you see what this means? We don’t know the reason God allows evil and suffering to continue, or why it is so random, but now at least we know what the reason isn’t, what it can’t be.
It can’t be that he doesn’t love us. It can’t be that he doesn’t care. He is so committed to our ultimate happiness that he was willing to plunge into the greatest depths of suffering himself.
so well said!!
So what the author is saying is that only christians teach christian dogma? Wow! That's amazing. Next thing you'll say is only hindus teach hindu dogma!
suffering? really?
a god suffers. hmmm, such a human concept and it's not like it didn't know it was going to happen.
regardless, there was no sacrifice. flesh and blood are nothing to a god.
Christians say Jesus died to "save" us. Why ?
If he is all powerful, he could just wave his magic wand and lift the curse.
After all, he put the curse on us in the first place.
No need for a violent, bloody drama.
I suppose the story sells better if it filled with torture, blood, and death.
@Chad,
I disagree. Rev. Keller does a terrible job of refuting atheism. Quoting Rev. King on atheism? Might as well quote Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on the Nazi Holocaust!
As for Friedrich Nietzsche, nihilism is for angst-ridden Goth teenagers. It is a philosophy to die by, not a philosophy to live by. It is not atheism.
Chad-Agreed. The message of grace abounds in one place and that can only be found in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The writer of this article has articulated this message quite eloquently.
@tallulah13 So what the author is saying is that only christians teach christian dogma?"
@Chad "no.. what the article says (you should read it first..), is that Christianity stands alone in making the claim that God came to earth(as His son), became a man, and paid the price Himself for our transgression.
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@sybaris "suffering? really?"
@Chad "yes, terrible suffering..
Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground Luke 22
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@One one "Christians say Jesus died to "save" us. Why ?"
@Chad "Jesus was the scapegoat, the "proxy" if you will. He stood in our place, accepting the punishment that we deserve.
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness Hebrews 9
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@GOPer: "I disagree. Rev. Keller does a terrible job of refuting atheism. Quoting Rev. King on atheism? Might as well quote Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on the Nazi Holocaust! As for Friedrich Nietzsche, nihilism is for angst-ridden Goth teenagers. It is a philosophy to die by, not a philosophy to live by. It is not atheism."
@Chad "Every atheist believes in the truth of bolded portion of this statement:
if there was no higher divine law, there would be no way to tell if any particular human law was unjust. Likewise, if there is no God, then why do we have a sense of outrage and horror when suffering and tragedy occur? The strong eat the weak, there is no meaning, so why not?
by definition the atheist does not believe in any transcendent teleological meaning to life, there is no objective morality, there is no "right" and "wrong" (only opinions), there is no "evil" and "good", only opinions.
so, why does tragedy inherently strike us an unfair? Why do we all know that there exists a right and wrong?
all questions that evolutionism can not address..
@Chad,
Sorry, but wrong again, on the subject of atheism.
I am an atheist. I do not belive your 'bolded' statement: The strong eat the weak, there is no meaning, so why not?
I think this assertion is wrong and do not subscribe to it. It is not conducive to contentment – which I assert is the aspiration of all people.
You say: by definition the atheist does not believe in any transcendent teleological meaning to life, there is no objective morality
In this case, I agree with you. There is no such thing as "objective" morality. There is only subjective "morality". This is true even for theists (including Christians).
The bible condones slavery. Modern Christians do not. It's still in your 10 commandments. So what changed? The subjective morality of Christians changed. There is no such thing as 'objective' morality and nor can there be.
@ GOPer "I am an atheist. I do not belive your 'bolded' statement: The strong eat the weak, there is no meaning, so why not?"
I think this assertion is wrong and do not subscribe to it. It is not conducive to contentment – which I assert is the aspiration of all people."
@Chad "think carefully about what you just said.
as an atheist, there is no "meaning", regardless of whether that is conducive to contentment or not.
in your view, humans are the end product of mindless forces, of random events. It is impossible for you to assign meaning to any of it.
And yet, your mind recoils from plainly stating that, because as you say "conducive to contentment"
and I agree
atheism embraces purposeless, meaningless, hopeless reality.
so,you're either going to have to realize that as an atheist, it is required that you embrace that, OR turn to the truth.
I'll address the objective morality aspect of your post later. I wanted to get you to see this first..
@Chad,
"get me to see this"??? Morality is not God-given – it is consenus driven for a community. You don't need a buring bush and graven tablets to figure out that killing, stealing and lying are 'wrong'. These are self-evident.
Societies make up religions to reinforce the morals they define.
Morals are real and binding to a society.
Meaning is not dependent on an afterlife.
@Chad, (finally reposted in the right place)
and don't give me the new covenant verus old covenant rhetoric on slavery.
If "Christians" only focused on the new covenant, we wouldn't have any questions around gay marriage.
@Chad,
you fall into this same narrow-minded reflexive response all the time. If there is no God-given 'law' then there can be no meaning.
You always equate atheism with nihilism because you cannot embrace the notion of morality in the absence of a Christian world-view. This is willfully wrong on your part, and you should know better than this by now.
@GOPer "Meaning is not dependent on an afterlife."
@Chad "of course it is!
as an atheist, you believe humans are the end product of mindless forces, of random events. It is impossible for you to assign meaning to any of it. Atheism embraces purposeless, meaningless, hopeless reality.
right?
BTW, I'm not ignoring the objective morality question, I have answered it countless times and will do so again. I just want you to see what you embrace...
@Chad,
sorry but you are wrong again on atheism.
Atheists don't embrace purposeless, meaningless, hopeless reality. ONE MORE TIME, this is classic nihilism.
Anyone who really embraces this point of view is one step away from suicide.
We can find purpose, meaning and hope in the reality we see, without resorting to fantasies about an afterlife. It sounds like you are unable to do this.
@Chad,
I am happy to have a conversation with you if you will do me the credit that I am happy to give you. I respect that you have a faith and I don't intend to try to convert you. You need to respect the fact that I am an atheist and NOT a nihilist.
I won't accuse you of being in denial, and I expect the same from you. If you can't do that. I won't respond any further here.
@GOPer: "We can find purpose, meaning and hope in the reality we see, without resorting to fantasies about an afterlife. It sounds like you are unable to do this."
@Chad "what purpose/meaning can there possibly be, by definition, if we are the end result of mindless chance, randomness, purposeless?
Explain to me, how?
BTW, I agree with you that for a human to really embrace that.. to really think that evolutionism is true, is one step away from despair.
Which makes you wonder, how in the world would evolutionism explain random mutation and natural selection preserving that particular mental capacity???
I'm not at all familiar with nihilism..
but, atheism, evolutionism, embrace the notion that we are the end result of random, mindless, purposeless forces..
right?
@Chad,
Then look up nihilism. It is that 'nothing has meaning' philosophy you keep incorrectly equating with atheism. Some atheists are nihilists. Personally, I don't think this is healthy.
random – no. Matter is subservient to the laws of physics (whatever they are exactly), so not random. You can call it God's will if it helps. Einstein saw it though the prism of Spinoza's God.
mindless – no. We exist. We have minds. It doesn't need a sentient 'supervisor'.
purposeless,/b> – no. We have minds and can choose to have our own purpose. Why does this need to be directed by a higher power?
Consider the Cartesian concept – 'I think therefore I am'. We are self-aware. You can choose to believe this is a divine gift and the manifestation of an immortal soul, but I am happy to accept it as is.
@I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV – "I won't accuse you of being in denial, and I expect the same from you."
You expect too much from Chad. He is perhaps the most dishonest poster on this blog.
@Chad – "I'm not at all familiar with nihilism"
Wow! Not familiar with nihilism? Obviously Chad's not been to university and his attempts at intellectual betterment are helter-skelter. Don't worry Chad – I never thought more of you.
Seriously?! Chad's "not familiar with nihilism" yet he spews William Lane Craig's hackneyed, pedantic tripe at the drop-of-a-hat. Chad deserves the ridicule he receives on this blog.
@GOPer "random – no. Matter is subservient to the laws of physics (whatever they are exactly), so not random. You can call it God's will if it helps. Einstein saw it though the prism of Spinoza's God."
@Chad "?????
setting aside for the moment the inability of atheists to explain WHY there are laws of physics. Atheists reject any and all teleology!!
That is precisely the definition of atheism. Random genetic mutation is BY DEFINITION the basis of evolutionism.
Unless you are a deist like Einstein and Spinoza? You are sure starting to sound like one...
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@GOPer "mindless – no. We exist. We have minds. It doesn't need a sentient 'supervisor'."
@Chad " I said the forces were mindless, as you must agree... Not that we dont have minds..."
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@GOPer "Purposeless – no. We have minds and can choose to have our own purpose"
@Chad "you can do something that can have a result, but by definition, you feel there is NO reason for which you exist"
BTW – "I'm not at all familiar with nihilism" goes into my vault of Chad-bites along with "I dismiss all other gods other than the God of Abraham because the God of Abraham has told me that they aren't real." What a moron.
@GOPer: I'll make you a deal, hope you take me up on it.. You recommend a book, I'll recommend a book (equal length and consumption difficulty), we'll each read it and come back in 30 days with a book report..
deal?
@Chad,
the fact that we exist, we think and that we define our own purpose is sufficient to me. It's the ultimate expression of 'free will' don't you think?
I don't need the universe to have purpose. I percieve that it exists, and that is sufficient for me.
And no, I'm not a deist. If I was afraid to be ridiculed for saying "I am an atheist" I could easily claim to be a deist. The notion of the transcendent is appealing. The transcendant is all around us – love, truth, beauty etc. These are all transcendent concepts. They are lovely, but I still don't see them as divine. As humans we have learned that contentment follows living harmoniously with others (hence morality). Yet another transcendant concept, but again not one I see as divine.
Where did we come from? Our scientific explanations are sufficient for me.
Why are we here? I don't know and don't care. We simply are.
Where are we going? We don't and can't know, so live well while you can. Jesus offers much the same advice in Matthew 25.
I've got a deal for you Chad – how 'bout you get yourself off your settee and head on down to your local university (or community college, if that's the best you can do) and procure some higher learning? How 'bout that deal, Chad. I hope you take me up on it.
...knucklehead
@Chad,
I'm not much of a 'books on atheism' or even philosophy kind of guy. History is more my thing. So sadly I don't have a recommendation for you. I'm sure someone else would be happy to oblige you with a reference.
@GOPer "the fact that we exist, we think and that we define our own purpose is sufficient to me. It's the ultimate expression of 'free will' don't you think?"
@Chad "what you are describing is delusional.. right? Assigning purpose to something that has none to feel better?
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@GOPer "The transcendant is all around us"
@Chad "?? That is an impossible statement for an atheist to make..
right?
for an atheist, it is impossible for something to have that property.. right? By definition..
Transcendence, transcendent, and transcendental are words that refer to an object (or a property of an object) as being comparatively beyond that of other objects. Such objects (or properties) transcend other objects (or properties) in some way.
transcendence and Naturalism are directly opposing counter propositions, philosophically. Naturalism believes that transcendence does not exist.
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@GOPer "Where did we come from? Our scientific explanations are sufficient for me."
@Chad "???? what?? there arent any!
we've had that discussion dozens of times, right? Remember, you guys are always asserting that "I don't know" is the only intellectually honest answer when it comes to the origin of the universe, the origin of life,....!! right??
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@GOPer "Where are we going? We don't and can't know, so live well while you can. Jesus offers much the same advice in Matthew 25."
@Chad "you must be reading from some special bible that I certainly never heard of.. what verse can you possibly be referring to?
@GOPer "I'm not much of a 'books on atheism' or even philosophy kind of guy. History is more my thing. So sadly I don't have a recommendation for you. I'm sure someone else would be happy to oblige you with a reference."
come on.. anything at all..
I'm not being disingenuous.. I'm very serious. any book at all.
@Chad,
what lesson do you take from Matt 25:13, with respect to not just 'the kingdom of God' but death?
@Chad – re: "come on.. anything at all.."
Why don't you read "The Birth of Tragedy" by that Nietzsche guy? You know, the one who's philosophy you're "not at all familiar with"?
@Chad,
relative to my use of the word transcendant, I was not attempting to use any textbook philosophical definition – more of a dictionary definition perhaps inaccurately applied (in a formalized academic philosophical sense). I was never a philosophy major and do not have a working knowledge of all the academic labels.
I was not referring to Kant's definition or a theological definition of transcendance, merely intending to mean that which is conceptual, and not directly measurable by mass, volume, time or voltage.
@Chad, (reposted)
I particularly enjoyed: "The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics, Civil Warfare, And The Triumph Of Anglo-America" by Kevin Phillips.
It's not particularly well written, but I liked the thesis. It is a very interesting look at religion in US history through the prism of three centuries of what were essentially religious war in the US. I offer it because you asked, but not in acceptance of any deal. I don't expect you to read it
@GOPer "what lesson do you take from Matt 25:13, with respect to not just 'the kingdom of God' but death?"
“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. Matthew 25
That refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, the church is represented as the bride, Jesus is the bridegroom (it's a very common type used in the bible, both the OT and NT).
No one knows, not even Jesus Himself (at the time he was speaking) when that event will actually occur, so we are warned to be vigilant and ready for it at any moment.
Not knowing WHEN Jesus Christ will come again is of course a vastly different thing than not knowing WHERE we are going after death, which is the connection you seemed to be making..:
@GOPer "Where are we going? We don't and can't know, so live well while you can. Jesus offers much the same advice in Matthew 25."
==========
wish you would take me up on the deal...
@Chad,
so how do you prepare for the kingdom of God, either through death or judgement day (which presumably hasn't happened yet) so death is more likely?
You live a 'good' life. So perhaps not as directly relevant as I would have liked, but mostly in the spirt of 'you do not know the hour' etc.
I have to go now.
@GOPer "so how do you prepare for the kingdom of God, either through death or judgement day (which presumably hasn't happened yet) so death is more likely? You live a 'good' life. So perhaps not as directly relevant as I would have liked, but mostly in the spirt of 'you do not know the hour' etc.
@Chad "you get into heaven by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, has -0- to do with your "good" deeds..
You lost me on the comparison.. but in any case, it was a good conversation and I hope you take me up on the book swap offer.
Wow...the level of intellectual discourse, Snap
your mama must be way proud...maybe you are chemical goo after all?
What's up? Sorry. I've been a little preoccupied beating off onto your mom's face. One.
I beat off to Jesus. Love those abs.
one: at least I believe that all dogs come from two dogs on an ark...that is way more rational than believing a fully organized and unified and suspended universe and all life came from 'dead' matter and randomness and chance. Your watch had a designer but you don't ??/
hahahah
hilarious my friend
hilarious
You believe in the story of Noha's arch? Do you think it was ok for god to kill everyone, including unborn babies and innocent animals ? You actually worship someone that would do that ?
Jesus spends too much free time administering reach arounds to autistic dwarfs.
You atheists give yourselves FAR too much credit: Let's be honest: If Dawkins is right and our 'thoughts', our very reason is our highest good...well, we gotta problem with that: YOUR reason is the result of chemical goo and randomness....
Furthermore: You complain our 'faith' is just a consequence of some 'developmental need'....a throwback to our lack of fully evoving; here' s YOUR dirty little secret what makes you think YOUR reasoning and your lack of faith is any less a 'developmental need' (and to suppress God's righteousness truly is your need: because YOU can't stand not being your own 'god')...
do you get atheists friends? your thoughts of NO god, of mocking belief in the God of the bible, etc. is just more chemical goo and oddly firing electrons and a developmental lack...
God will not be mocked...my friends.
I'm going to bend over your moms and BF her all night.
Which god ?
I'll worry about mocking god when evidence of his existence (or the existence of ANY god) surfaces. Until then, I'll worry about real stuff.
"God will not be mocked...my friends."
Neither will reality. The difference is... reality doesn't care. Sorry.
The Life Of Brian....very successful movie, some say a classic. Oh, by the way, I mock god every day, almost religiously, true I don't spend hours on my knees mocking HIm, but I get my shots in. Haven't been hit by a bolt of lightning and am fairly healthy, if my punishment is being kept out of heaven, Thank You Lord, Thank You.
Monty ultimately you will get your wish – to your loss. Sorry about you
Sadly, "truth be told", there is no logical reason to believe that you will get YOUR wish. When you die, there's no reason to believe that you will be anything other than dead like the rest of us.
Having met God I find fault with your assessment tallulah. Sorry about you
@tbt. Met god? Where – Chick-Fil-A? Imaginary friends are more Chuck E Cheese
And we are just talking about plain old G.O.D. No CNN, no FBI, no CIA, no KGB, just the most ancient type of mass manipulation.
It's seems rather silly to posit that grief, a sense of justice, love, art and music appreciation are 'just 'there'; byproducts of random chance, billions of years, goo, electricity and more randomness. I guarantee you: throw enough wood and nails in the air over billions of years and a house will NOT come down.
Or put it another way, your 'love' of your child is just chemical goo. How very very sad for you and that child if true.
Your conscience is a gift from God. You know He exists...for even 'nothing' must be a created thing.
As the bible says: T
he fool in heart is saying, Surely there is no God.
You think it makes more sense that an invisible man in the sky created the universe by magic?
B.J.: Your personal ignorance is not proof of god. It's only proof that you are intellectually lazy.
The reason why it's dangerous to ask this question, for people employed in religion, is that they may realize they have no real job description. While it is very laudable, to sit with, and comfort people who are suffering, trying to give them fake answers is just dishonest.
The universe is internally consistent, and follows it's laws, in an impersonal manner. That is why children die of cancers, (because the genetic mechanism that provides mutations, can occasionally, by the laws of probability, make an "incorrect" or "non-advantageous" one), it's why "accidents" happen, and things we perceive as "bad" happen. . People who demand the universe provide them with personal exemptions, are bound to be disappointed. It also stems partly from the Western notion of the importance of "individuality".
There are more people that I care to admit to myself that still believe the world is only 6 thousand years old, Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark, in this country, in the year 2012. Very, very discouraging.
Let us face the fact that are powerful prejudices in society. One only need look at what happened in the McCarthy era and how easily it is to defame people at the highest level. It is still very dangerous for investigative reporters or film makers to go after the abuses of religious hustlers or major religions. What happened at PSU and what has happened at others......
oh so when your kid gets cancer I won't call it 'bad, or grieve with and for you....I'll just chalk it up to just one of those things!
Wow, BJ, is your religion the only thing that gives you the semblance of decency? Do you really lack basic humanity?
No BJ. If that were to happen I would grieve. But I also would not make up fables to attempt to justify what my scientific training tells me, is essentially a random, consistent, understanadable event. You don't get to fabricate a god, just because it makes you fell good, or answers all your childish questions. This dude is saying it's not understandable. It's perfectly understandable. He's just too ignorant to know why that is the case.
"Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." (1 Samuel 15:3)
"When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go. Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning. When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, 'Come, let us go'; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an ass and started out again for home." (Judges 19:25-28)
Prayer changes things .
Once the children are brainwashed it is very difficult to deprogram them.
Other living things are sacrificed as required.
Preying on children is a christian thing to do?
Father teaches child "The good news"
Father: If you believe in god, you go to heaven, if you don't, you go to hell.
Child: Daddy, do you hope the bible is true ?
Father: Yes sweet heart.
Child: But daddy, if it's true, millions of people will suffer eternal torture.
Father: Thats their problem for not believing in god. I want to go to heaven.
Child: But daddy, I have never seen god, I don't believe in him either.
Father: Well, sweet heart, you are going to burn in hell.
The worst form of child abuse would be to deny a child eternal life. God bless
Hmm. I don't think lying to your children and telling them that they will live forever is a healthy thing. I think children deserve to know the truth: There is no evidence to support the existence of any god. If they chose to follow a religion as an adult, that is their own choice.
your first three words are truth then you launch into your turtle shell protection of fantasyland.
Every time evidence for God is presented you dismiss it all. That does not make you right, only lost. God bless
No evidence of any god has been presented – primarily because there is none to present
@666 For some reason, they think the bible is proof. There is absolutely no reason to take the bible as anything but a product of man.
In response to Jon at 4:32pm, people do find experiences inherently valuable–that fact is a given. I would simply ask "Why?" If we are a simply a bundle of cells that are here in this universe by a combination of chance and a long period of time, then how can you say that there is any meaning in it? We are here by chance after all, so our experiences are just a result of chance. How is there meaning in chance? Yet, all people somehow do sense that there is significance to life. I would submit that we feel that value in experience because we are created in God's image (rational, feeling, sense of right/wrong/significance/etc). We just take it for granted. But that value in experience does indeed come from somewhere.
Value in experience = learning. That wasn't too hard was it now? There is no proof of any god so cut the junk out about being in god's image please.
I would submit that we experience things without the need of having been created in God's image (whatever that means).
If we are, in fact, created in God's image, then we are truly jealous, petty, murderous, loathsome beings.
If you can't find meaning in your life without attaching some religious dogma to it then you are the one who is blind.
King and Nietzche were wrong. You don't need a god. Look at Humanism. Humans, in and of themselves, are reason enough to know that violence is wrong. To say that there must be a god is very simplistic.
rev. tim keller, may the Lord bless continuously bless you. i'm always moved by how the Lord uses you. Keep on, keep on!!!
HeII is what happens to a sinner who finds himself stuck forever in the holy presence of God. He stands forever ignited in memorial of God's righteousness. Seek his favor in the life of Jesus Christ, before you return to your spirit place.
fvck off loser
I've read the Bible. God is apparently nothing more than a selfish, petty d.ick.
Does your definition of a sinner match the bible's? eaters of shellfish etc.?
There is no evidence to indicate that hell is anything more than wishful thinking on the part of believers. Kind of nasty of them, don't you think.
No one wishes for hell. Jesus said it would be better to live without sight or a hand to avoid going there and God has made every provision to allow a human being to avoid that eventuality. Still at the Great White Throne Judgement there will be foolish,deceived people cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and the fallen angels, people condemned by their own stupidity.
.There is no evidence to indicate that hell is anything more than wishful thinking on the part of believers. Kind of nasty of them, don't you think.
Everyone who hears about Jesus yet rejects his offer for reconciliation with God, is a sinner. Hellfire was ignited upon the death of Jesus. (God's wrath is an infinitely more profound reality than some man's angry rant)
Of course, there's no evidence to support the existence of the christian god any more than there is evidence of ANY god.
The Ancient Egyptians believed that when you died, you travelled to the Hall of the Dead. There Anubis weighed your heart against the feather of Ma'at. Ma'at, the goddess of justice sits on top of the scales to make sure that the weighing is carried out properly. If your heart was lighter than the feather, you lived for ever. If your heart was heavier than the feather then it was eaten by the demon Ammit, the Destroyer.
There is just as much proof that this will happen as there is proof of hell.
Hell was prepared as an eternal punishment for spiritual beings. It has nothing to do with believers and should not be the final destination of a human being. It is designed as something an angel cannot endure, no human could withstand the eternal torment, there is no relief, ever, for those consigned there and no human could possibly imagine it.
The very concept of "hell" evolved in the Jewish mythology over time. Please note that it was first introduced in the old testament as either Hades (literally "HADES", which means they stole it from the Greeks) or Sheol, the latter being neither a place of torture nor reward, but merely an underworld where nothing much happens.....kind of like Hades, which further suggests they stole it from the Greeks. Furthermore, please note the existence of Elysium in Greek mythology. Please note the existence of heaven and hell-like places in the Persian mythology of Zoroastrianism. It is so obvious that the Jews adapted concepts from their neighbors. It's a wonder any of this crap is still around.
Another Zionist Jew by proxy.
Another point I meant to make was that "hell" in the Jewish mythology did not become a place of eternal fiery punishment until much later. So obviously, just a lot of improvised BS!
tallulah13, I know it's hard for you Zionist Jews to think, but, try and wrap your mind around this fact. There are no offspring of any of the Egyptian rulers today. God wiped them out for following false gods and believing themselves to be gods. Same is going to happen to you Zionist Jews believing yourselves as a group, to be gods.
Paul: I am not sure why you accuse tallulah13 of being Zionist Jew when s/he is obviously just against Judeo-Christo-Fascism.
@truth be told
Hey -truth...
" Hell was prepared as an eternal punishment for spiritual beings. It has nothing to do with believers and should not be the final destination of a human being. It is designed as something an angel cannot endure, no human could withstand the eternal torment, there is no relief, ever, for those consigned there and no human could possibly imagine it. " 😯
This sounds infinitely beyond comprehension of horror, pain, terror, etc...
Who created this place again, exactly ?
Peace...
Hey Paul, you may want to brush up on your reading comprehension. I started out by saying this:
"Of course, there's no evidence to support the existence of the christian god any more than there is evidence of ANY god."
I'll be clearer: I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any god because there is no proof that any god exists. I mentioned the egyptians because there is as much evidence to support the Egyptian pantheon as there is evidence of the existence of your god, and that is no evidence whatsoever.
And autonomous Egyptian dynastic rule was destroyed by pagan Romans. Sheesh. Read some history.
Another conditioned fool by the IJ. Just call yourselves sleeper cells.
Here's a re-tweet from an earlier CNN discussion - a sarcastic blog comment on the Aurora shootings. You've likely seen it. It's been re-tweeted a zillion times, but it's appropriate here. All this christian rationalizing is just a waste of time.
God here. I thought I would take the time to personally explain my absence in the Aurora shootings. While I was at it, I thought I would also explain my absence during every murder, massacre and crime that has ever taken place in World history, and in every war, in every famine, drought and flood.
You see, I do not exist. I never have. Did it really make sense to you that I would create an entire Universe with billions of billions of planets and wait about 13,700,000,000 years just so I could focus on a few Jews from Palestine about 2,000 years ago while ignoring the rest of the 200,000,000 people on the planet at the time?
Nice try, David, but EPIC FAIL.
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself.
The thing about all the religious stories on here is that it baits out all the atheist trolls who want to
spew and vent and make their "I'm so smart!" posts.
Better luck next time, David.
David, if you never experienced suffering, how would you ever know what "good" is? For example, if you were never hungry, would you ever enjoy a good steak? If you were never tired, would you ever enjoy a relaxing weekend at the beach? If you ever had sore muscles, would you ever experience the joy of a good stretch or massage? Life would be utterly joyless and dull.
If we never experienced murders or the suffering of death, would you ever experience the joy of the life that you have?
@Question
What the heck are you trying to say there question? You are not making any sense whatsoever. Really, read your post back, it's ridiculous. For one, I can enjoy a good steak without being hungry and I can relax at the beach without being tired. You're clueless.
Nice try Fred, it just shows you are brain dead. The FACT that David's post actually makes sense whereas yours only shows how simple minded you are and cannot see the truth. Pick up a 7th grade science text book it has these elementary facts in them. (by the way the bible was written by people with less of an education than a 7th grader today. That says something about where you are getting your information from.
And in Aurora, God was there, with everyone who wanted Him there. He saw the sorrows there, and shed the same tears as the people there.
@Fred
We know where you are, we know what you think, but rather than condemn you to some mythical hell, we will let you ascend to your mythical heaven, enjoy. David it would appear has managed to figure out that fairytales are just that, try and catch up, Fred.
I think we are capable of enjoying a good steak without requiring children to be ra.ped or blown to bits.
What a pathetic assertion.
Davd, David, David,... I really pity you, your rationale, and your shallow life.
Voice, I believe your response would be different if you had never experienced the feeling of hunger or tiredness EVER in your life.
Question, I've never been stabbed in the neck or run over by a train, but I can imagine that I wouldn't like it very much. Your supposed point is not a very good one.
@Question
Hey -Question...
You Said to @Voice: " I believe your response would be different if you had never experienced the feeling of hunger or tiredness EVER in your life. "
O.K... you are talking about the concept of 'contrast.'
It seems like you are attempting to put a bigger frame around this whole argument.
In other words... what is the *main* ji-st of your a-s-s ertion ?
Regards,
Peace...
@Question
What's your point? There's day and there's night, there's left and there's right, there's up and there's down, there's right and there's wrong.....Oh, I see where you're going with this. You're going to tell me that your god says what is right and what is wrong and how do I create what is right and wrong if I don't believe in your god, right?
If have never repeatedly banged your head against a brick wall you would have never experienced how good it feels to stop!
Deity of Abraham was not god, or Goad, belly hindu's, pagans worshiped as their deity, but Ellah, The truth absolute, rest of it is hinduism, absurdity of hindu's, pagans of Egypt to hind, fool humanity in their hindu Judaism, filthy self center ism, called religion.