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Barton's 'Jefferson Lies' book yanked
David Barton's book attempted to dispel the popular notion that Thomas Jefferson was a secular politician.
August 10th, 2012
05:15 PM ET

Barton's 'Jefferson Lies' book yanked

By Eric Marrapodi and Dan Gilgoff, CNN

(CNN)–A best-selling book is getting boxed up and returned to the publisher after complaints of historical inaccuracies.

Publisher Thomas Nelson has withdrawn 'The Jefferson Lies" after a lengthy review found the author, David Barton, had included "historical details that were not adequately supported," said Brian Hampton, a senior vice president and publisher for Thomas Nelson.

Hampton said the move was "extremely rare" and he could not recall a time in the publisher's history when it had recalled a book in this manner. "We’re disappointed for everyone concerned," Hampton said.

Barton is the founder and president of the Texas-based WallBuilders, a group that describes itself as "dedicated to presenting America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on the moral, religious and constitutional foundation on which America was built – a foundation which, in recent years, has been seriously attacked and undermined," according to its website.

"The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson," was published in April.  In it Barton attempted to dispel the popular notion that Thomas Jefferson was a secular politician who pioneered the idea of strict church-state separation.

It was Barton's first book with Thomas Nelson and was released to great expectations.  By May 13, 2012, the book landed on The New York Times Best-Sellers list.

But even before the book was published, Hampton said Thomas Nelson began receiving complaints.

"First concerns came our way from people who hadn’t read the book," he said.  The publisher thought the complaints were from people on the opposite ideological spectrum from Barton, a conservative political star who has long billed himself as an evangelical historian.

"We still took them seriously and began a review process," Hampton said.  Despite the complaints, the book still went to press.

As Thomas Nelson was conducting its own review, so were academics.

Warren Throckmorton, an associate professor of psychology, and Michael Coulter a political science professor,  both at Grove City College, a conservative Christian school in Pennsylvania, were also conducting their own review.  They published their own e-book that fact checked Barton called "Getting Jefferson Right."

Barton had written off other critics as "liberal elites," but this was a searing attack from within the evangelical community.

Hampton said there was no outside tipping point for the publisher.

“We were monitoring everything that was happening out there,” he said.

He said concerns were expressed about the book from a variety of sources. “What was most compelling to us was engaging with the manuscript.”

“The first thing we did was go back to the book and see what was a matter of opinion or analysis,” Hampton said.

After the internal review of Barton's book, Hampton said, “We became convinced there were parts of the book that were not historically supported.”

“Both withdrawing it from the marketplace and reverting the rights back to him seemed like the best thing for us to do,” he said.

Barton told Bob Smietana, a religion reporter for the Tennessean, a Nashville-based newspaper, “All I got was an e-mail saying it was canceled,” he said. “It was a complete surprise.”

In a statement issued by WallBuilders late Friday night Barton said, “while Thomas Nelson may have ‘lost confidence’ in the work, others have not and thus the book has already been picked up by a much larger national publisher and distributor. Even at the time Nelson dropped the work, they admitted that it was still selling very well.”

A representative for WallBuilders would not name the new publisher, suggesting the details were not final and the final word would come through their website once those details could be worked out.

Barton’s statement pushed back hard against Thomas Nelson’s review of his material.
“As is the case with all of our published items, we go above and beyond with original source documentation so that people can be thoroughly confident when they see the truth of history for themselves,” the statement read.

“We find it regrettable that Thomas Nelson never contacted us with even one specific area of concern before curtly notifying us they had dropped the work. Had they done so, we would have been happy to provide them with the thorough and extensive historical documentation for any question or issue they raised; they never asked,” the statement continuted.

“The Jefferson Lies has not been pulled from publication and it will continue to sell nationally,” it concluded.

The book is still available through Barton’s website. Amazon.com was no longer carrying the book on Friday through its regular processes, instead was directing customers to used booksellers who carried the book.

Barton told the Tennessean he thought some of Throckmorton's critiques were off base.

“This is one of the cases where he is just nuts,” Barton told the Nashville paper.

Barton wears a variety of hats in Republican and conservative circles. He is a former top official in the Texas GOP and a sometimes consultant with the Republican National Committee, a behind-the-scenes political operative who advises presidential candidates and coordinates trips to Israel for the likes of Glenn Beck, and a prolific author, speaker and Washington tour guide on the evangelical circuit.

Beck wrote the forward to 'The Jefferson Lies."

Barton and his work were also featured prominently in former "Growing Pains" star Kirk Cameron’s movie “Monumental,” about the role of religion in American history.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Books • Christianity • Church and state

soundoff (861 Responses)
  1. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Our nation was brought into being by religious fvcktards that would make the unending stream of Islamists pale by comparsion. We've got to choke down that stream. Take it like patriots and wash it down with a bit of Listerine. When its all over we can wipe our chins and congratulate ourselves on a wonderful piece of nation building.

    August 10, 2012 at 8:26 pm |
    • Really-O?

      If you see the term fvcktard you know it's gotta be TTTPS. I think you should copyright that phrase.

      Cheers

      August 10, 2012 at 8:32 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...sorry...term, not phrase.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So? Have you got a better word for them? Jefferson played hide the banana with people that he OWNED and he was the only one with half a brain.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:43 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Welcome Tom.

      Our friend fred the defender of the belief that the United States was founded by Christians for Christians only appeared briefly here today.

      I took great delight in the news that Mr. Barton's publishers were taking his "Lies" off the booksellers shelves.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son –

      That was a complement.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • Answer

      I would love to see the white supremacists get into gear and rewrite H-i-t-l-e-r as the one who was cr-uc-ified on the cross. I would love to see how far any religious nut will go to please themselves and their religion. Of course we will use a do-cu-mented past and compare their works in say in another 500 years (if these religious nuts survive that is).

      August 10, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...compliment...sorry.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I owe you one then Really-O? I hearby license the use of the term "fvcktard" to you.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      hereby ... sorry

      August 10, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • Answer

      @GOP

      -quote-
      "Our friend fred the defender of the belief that the United States was founded by Christians for Christians only appeared briefly here today."
      -end-

      Oh really? That's so hilarious.

      Fred there – is really a mess. He's one of those religious tards that thinks "if you reject my heaven then you reject your heaven also" type. That is why he's so fearful about being rejected (on the basis of his bible and his delusions). They're all attached to their salvation – deeply entrenched I would say – because death's door is so close.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      The root post is not mine and I do not entirely agree with its sentiment. Anyone can type any word, including fvcktard, under someone else's name. It wasn't my post.

      I do not believe that religion should be eradicated. I do not believe that all Christians are stupid. I don't have a black-and-white view of issues, including religion. I believe there are many very humble and wonderful people who believe and don't push their beliefs on others or attempt to force the government to conform to their religious convictions. And I'd appreciate it if the person posting using my name would stop. I have not been in agreement with a number of the statements you've made.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son – "I owe you one then Really-O? I hearby license the use of the term "fvcktard" to you."

      An honor I don't deserve.

      Cheers.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      That said, the religious right who post their extreme views here disgust me. Those who wish to force others to live by their beliefs and would deprive people of the rights guaranteed to us under the law of a secular nation are anathema to me. I will not sit by and let them spew their crap without a challenge. But they don't represent the majority of religious believers; they're just part of the nutty fringe.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      You know TTTPS, I wondered if this was a poe.

      "unending stream of Islamists" didn't sound like you. Plus, you tend to rebut rather than start things off and fvcktard is usually directed at someone deserving in the here and now.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Wait...now I'm just confused...which is the real TTPS?

      August 10, 2012 at 9:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Really-O, that post ("I owe you one") was not mine either. The only posts in this group that I wrote were the one at 9:07 and at 9:11.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Well today we celebrate that a member of the religious right who tried a little revisionist history and found his pants had fallen down.

      Doubtless he'll find an Xtian publisher for his "Lies" but in the meantime, history was not re-written.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:15 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Handle-hijacking is for cowards. No worries, TTTPS.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Thanks. It really doesn't bother me when some little turd posts idiocy about my 'co oter' or some other nonsense using my name. I does bother me when someone who is obviously intelligent and shares some of my views does it, and I am puzzled as to the purpose of this deception.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
    • Observer

      There isn't really a single "Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son". There was an original perspicacious and acerbic poster under that handle. That one hasn't been around in a while.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You are incorrect, Observer. I have used this name since quite a long time ago, and until I adopted it, no one else here had used it.

      Unless you were insulting me as to my more recent activity on these boards. If that is the case, then I'm sorry you feel that way, but I wouldn't be surprised. I have always enjoyed reading what you write. I know I could be less crude and rude. So what? I don't choose to pull any punches with those who don't deserve any quarter.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:28 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Now that last TTTPS post is not the real TTTPS. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son is a far better writer.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:34 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sorry to disappoint you, but it's me. You can believe me or not. I don't really give a ripe fvck.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • Rob

      Tom, you believe atheists have a better plan with all the perversion you've written on this blog. Let me catch my breath from the laughter you've provided.

      August 11, 2012 at 2:23 am |
    • Dave

      The only tards are the atheists liars in this world.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 3:59 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You obviously couldn't be bothered to read what I actually wrote, could you? Says a lot about your thoroughness.

      August 11, 2012 at 10:15 am |
  2. Answer

    Another religious nutbag trying to rewrite history to their twisted dreams. So laughable.

    August 10, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      He is a shining example of the Christian dilemma, altering reality and truth to fit their agenda. Shameful if you ask me.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:17 pm |
    • Answer

      Seen it all already. This isn't a new tactic by the religious s-c-u-m.

      Every year they get together on how to rewrite history. How to distort it to their likings – to convince a younger generation.
      They don't want an educated population, but prefer a compliant one. If you're religious you would love to read more religious drivel and get dumber. It's so fun laughing at them -at every which way- because everyday they're trying to prove just how low and pathetic they can go.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • Dave

      You atheists do the hit and run so quick, caring less about the damage you do.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208.

      August 11, 2012 at 4:00 am |
  3. exlonghorn

    @truth be told

    Now you're either ignorant, totally undereducated, or simply a liar by suggesting that Hitler was an atheist.

    I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

    – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

    Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

    – Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7

    Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

    – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

    May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.

    – Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933

    I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.

    – Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

    August 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • truth be told

      Anyone quoting hitler for Truth is immediately suspect. There are as many quotes detailing his atheism.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
      • exlonghorn

        @TBT,

        But you can't trouble yourself to actually POST one? Wow...you're pathetic. Just believe you because you said so?!? Sheesh, who do you think you are...a disciple or something? (haha)

        August 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm |
    • Dave

      Hitler was a Jew. As were many who held office.

      August 11, 2012 at 4:01 am |
  4. Keith

    Josephus records how Daniel showed Cyrus that Isaiah(who died 150 years prior) named Cyrus by name and listed some of his accomphishments. Cyrus was impressed. Cyrus financed the Israelites in the rebuilding of their temple. This is also recorded in the Cylinder of Cyrus which is in London.

    August 10, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Santa is purported to live at the North Pole with reindeer. Reindeer and the North Pole exist. Does Santa and his magical sleigh?

      August 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
    • Keith

      All of you who mock the Lord and His written Word are in for a big surprise someday.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Keith –

      Presents?!

      August 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      @Keith
      "All of you who mock the Lord and His written Word are in for a big surprise someday."

      When?

      August 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      Sure, Santa is alive and well in heaven!
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

      August 10, 2012 at 8:12 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Ah, threats–the sure-fire way to get the approval of a critical thinker. lol.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
    • Answer

      Nothing like well wishing to take the edge out of reality right? lol

      Something to sooth your agony of being rejected and killed by nature as it does everything else despite your best intentions and best projections of a god. Keep trying you pathetic religious d-o-u-c-h-e-s.

      Soothe your rotting corpses til the very end. It won't make one iota of difference as nature puts you into the ground like all of past history.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:17 pm |
    • Keith

      Isa 44:27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:

      Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, [He is] my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
      Isa 45:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

      Isa 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

      Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.

      Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

      Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

      Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:29 pm |
    • Keith

      2Ch 36:22 ¶ Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD [spoken] by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and [put it] also in writing, saying,

      2Ch 36:23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah. Who [is there] among you of all his people? The LORD his God [be] with him, and let him go up.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm |
    • Keith

      Ezr 1:1 ¶ Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and [put it] also in writing, saying,

      Ezr 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah.

      Ezr 1:3 Who [is there] among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he [is] the God,) which [is] in Jerusalem.

      Ezr 1:4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Keith is boring and should be ignored.

      Except when he gets upset. Then he says the most colorful things.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:34 pm |
    • Keith

      I don't expect many of you to understand this. In short, the Bible predicted that the Lord would appoint Cyrus to release the captives from Babylon. Isaiah died 150 years before Cyrus was even born! I'd bet Cyrus became a believer in God when Daniel handed him a scroll of Isaiah depicting him and his accomplishments more than 150 years in advance. Cyrus existed.
      Most of you will continue to mock no matter how much evidence is presented to you. But maybe this will be all it takes to make one or two of you who are agnostic to re-evaluate your positions.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're right Keith. Can I call you Keith? What must I do to be saved.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:44 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Keith –

      Histories are only evidence that someone wrote or told a story.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:45 pm |
    • Keith

      Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

      Rev 22:12 ¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Keith

      A prediction in a book fulfilled within the same book and taken from unknown authors with no originals isn't very compelling. Then again, You won't care what people who disagree with you say will you? Using the bible to prove itself useless and circular.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • Keith

      Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

      Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

      Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Keith, there are some things mathematicians know that you don't: there are more things that cannot be proven than there are things that can. That's your lesson for today, Keith. Find something that can be proven. That's your free advice for today.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:00 pm |
    • Keith

      hawaiiguest, See Josephus Antiquities Xl, 1,2.
      And the Cylinder of Cyrus is on display in a London museum. Read what is written on the cylinder. It matches exactly what the Bible says. For those who know how Cyrus re-routed the Euphrates and went under the wall it matches what Bible predicted would happen and what did happen.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Keith

      You forget to mention that Josephus's writing on Jesus being the messiah is accepted by both secular and christian historians and scholars as a forgery.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Keith

      You also forget to mention that the cylinder of Cyrus was created 539-530 BCE and Cyrus himself reigned from 559 until his death in 530 BCE, and his campaign to retake Babylon succeeded in 539 BCE. In other words, the creation of the cylinder was created as a record of current events.

      August 10, 2012 at 9:42 pm |
    • Keith

      The Bible predicted in advance the way the current events played out.

      August 10, 2012 at 10:09 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      And where's the original of that prediction that has been dated and accepted as authentic?

      August 10, 2012 at 10:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Keith, people say the same thing about the writings of Nostradamus, and they're wrong, just as you are.

      August 10, 2012 at 10:18 pm |
    • Sim34

      Keith
      Josephus also mentions Hercules as an actual, historical figure, and Hercules was the son of Zeus.

      August 11, 2012 at 11:24 am |
  5. TheVocalAtheist

    Someone needs to follow-up with a book called "Barton's Lies".

    August 10, 2012 at 8:00 pm |
    • Dave

      We already know how atheist do the hit and run tactics, along with gang up routines, all the time with their lies flinging the bull to see what sticks.

      Atheists, as usual are pulling a fast one. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:04 am |
  6. Chick-a-dee

    ...and this is why history books should be written by historians.

    August 10, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • Dave

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:04 am |
    • Sim34

      ... and books on biblical scholarship should be written by actual biblical scholars, like John Dominic Crossan. The same goes for science books. There are too many opportunists out there writing stuff to shore up people's lapsing faith and they gobble it up without even bothering to check if they're accurate.

      August 11, 2012 at 11:30 am |
  7. truth be told

    Noahs ark is mentioned and known by multiple cultures across the earth, The evidences you are looking for may be too small. Fossil records show sea creatures on virtually every continent. Two thoughts, the waters separated from the waters as the windows of heaven were opened and the force and results of the fountains of the deep bursting forth. Think on a scale more massive than can be imagined and you may be getting closer to what happened but for the Bible and a few other ancient references you are still dealing with pre history.

    August 10, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      tbt

      You are do deluded, so blind, so full of wrong information, so misguided and so, so very wrong.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:44 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @truth be told

      And another explanation, which seems much more likely, is that as the continents drifted, volacnic activity came into effect, and bodies of water became landlocked, animals became trapped or bodies of dead animals became very spread out. The geological record supports that, and does not support a worldwide flood to the tips of the highest mountains.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • Science

      @TBT

      Tsk tsk, I expected more of you. Please show me the Noah's ark story in another religion other than in the judeo-christian bible. Please, just one mention of a giant ark led by a man named Noah carrying every animal and plant in the entire world and i'll give you some credit.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:49 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      1) The story of Noah in the bible is based on an earlier legend. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written by the Sumerians long before Genesis was written down. We have tablets dating as far back as 2000 BCE which contain portions of the Gilgamesh story, with the earliest surviving record of the flood dating to 1900 BCE. The Old Testament of the Bible was not pulled together until about 600 BCE from primarily oral tradition, and the oldest surviving versions of the old testament are even more recent than that.

      There is little question that the Hebrew story is based on the Sumerian/Babylonian story, as the Hebrews, even according to the bible, came from this region and their language is descended from Akadian, spoken by the ancient Babylonians and in which the most complete existing version of the Gilgamesh legend is written.

      Instead of Noah, we have Utnapishtim. Instead of a single god, we have *many* gods. But the basic story of building a boat, taking the animals on, letting birds out to find land, and even the rainbow are all elements captured in this earlier book.

      The point being, the Hebrews probably took this story into their oral tradition, over many years it was changed, and it wound up in Genesis. We see no reason to believe that the story in the bible is any more true than any other story in any other of the countless religious and mythological texts.

      2) There is no evidence of a worldwide flood of the proportions described in any of the stories. If such a flood were to have taken place in the past 6,000 years, there would be a vast amount of geological evidence of such a flood. So far, there is no verifiable evidence in support of such a flood. The geologic evidence simply does not exist.

      3) The story in the bible is impossible.

      3a) For Noah and his sons to build such a boat, even given several hundred years, without modern manufacturing equipment would be impossible.

      3b) Collecting two of each animal would be an equally impossible task (did Noah travel to Australia to pick up some kangaroos, or to Antarctica to grab some penguins?)

      3c) The combined weight of the animals and the food to keep them all alive for over 100 days would cause such a wooden ship to collapse under its own weight.

      3d) There wouldn’t even be enough time for Noah and his family to feed and shovel all the dung out of all the stalls of these tens of thousands of animals.

      3e) There is the problem of the fresh-water fish surviving in the salt water (or the salt-water fish surviving in the fresh water, depending upon your definition of the flood)

      3d) When the flood receded, how did the kangaroos get all the way back to Australia?

      4) If you claim two of each species around today, the boat isn’t big enough. If you claim that there were certain “types” of animals, then there isn’t enough time for these “types” to speciate into the vast variety of species we see today.

      5) A single pair of any animals is not enough to develop a significant population due to the inbreeding problem. Take a couple of hamsters and try this. After a couple dozen generations, the offspring will be sick and malformed due to this interbreeding.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TVA,

      You say:

      2) There is no evidence of a worldwide flood of the proportions described in any of the stories. If such a flood were to have taken place in the past 6,000 years, there would be a vast amount of geological evidence of such a flood. So far, there is no verifiable evidence in support of such a flood. The geologic evidence simply does not exist.

      3) The story in the bible is impossible.

      So if we take this verse:
      19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered

      And apply it to all the visible land between the Tigris and Euphrates (the known world, aka everything under the sky from that reference point – horizon to horizon) we have something more plausible, no?

      August 10, 2012 at 8:04 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      "we have something more plausible, no?" Yes.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:08 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      OK, just checkin'

      Seeing the Epic of Gilgamesh for the first time (when I was in the 8th grade) was quite eye-opening.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
    • Sim34

      You mean Gilgamesh's Ark is known as Noah's Ark in Hebrew culture, don't you?

      August 11, 2012 at 11:32 am |
  8. pATHEISTic

    I meant, *TOE nails.

    August 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm |
  9. truth be told

    The forty year journey resulted as a punishment for disobedience to God, They were not allowed entrance into the promised land until the unbelievers had passed away. When they did go in under Joshua they built an altar from stones taken from the Jordan river. That altar has been found.

    August 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TBT,

      I'm guessing this was meant as a reply somewhere else?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • Dave

      Here's the post again.

      Atheists, as usual are pulling a fast one. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:05 am |
  10. TheVocalAtheist

    The Christian agenda = deception and lies, proven.

    August 10, 2012 at 7:29 pm |
    • Dave

      The atheists agenda, throw as much bull and see what sticks.

      Atheists, as usual are pulling a fast one. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:06 am |
  11. Lol

    the jesus robot creep in the picture looks like a gay piranha.......................

    August 10, 2012 at 7:14 pm |
    • Dave

      Those that laugh first ... figures, it's an atheist.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one, along with the gang up routine. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:07 am |
  12. Science

    I think I'm in love with this entire story. Barton is a known liar, but to see him exposed like this in an incredibly embarrassing way makes this gold.

    August 10, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Indeed, it really is a delightful comeuppance.

      Couldn't happen to a more worthy recipient.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:04 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      It makes my skin crawl to even begin to think someone so devious in their agenda would believe that they could get away with something like this. Isn't there a law against this? If I remember some guy in Canada was brought-up on charges because he was attempting to change history stating there was no genocide of the Jews.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TVA,

      Mr. Barton's opinions are clearly protected as free speech. It is the publishers here who don't want their name on "Lies".

      As other posters have noted: a couple of tweaks on the manuscript with 'find and replace' and an Xtian publisher will oblige him.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:29 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      @gop

      I'm sure that will be the case so I will settle for this tiny little victory that it made the news. The Christians will forgive him no doubt.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
    • Dave

      Actually, it's the atheists that are proven liars.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one, along with the gang up routine. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:08 am |
  13. TheVocalAtheist

    This is ABSOLUTELY precious!

    Barton attempts to lie about Jefferson and gets nailed, YES!

    Barton's peers slam him with the facts and truth, YES!

    Beck puts his stamp of approval on it, YES!

    What a truly exceptional WIN!

    August 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • truth be told

      The publishing company falls short of the supreme court.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:51 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      "truth be told
      The publishing company falls short of the supreme court."

      Please explain?

      August 10, 2012 at 6:54 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TBT,

      who mentioned the Supremes? The publishers decided that it was not in their best interest to publish lies with their name on them.

      A victory of common sense I would say.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
    • Dave

      You atheists routine of gang up, hit and run, slap the slop and see what sticks garbage is just that. GARBAGE.

      David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:09 am |
  14. exlonghorn

    WHAT?!?!?
    A book...
    ...written by humans...
    ...not present at the time of the subjects being written about...
    ...has historical inaccuracies?

    Sounds like the Bible.

    August 10, 2012 at 6:15 pm |
    • truth be told

      I guess you will have to show historical inaccuracies in the Bible then.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      "truth be told
      I guess you will have to show historical inaccuracies in the Bible then."

      Like the very first statement? Please...where should we begin?

      August 10, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
    • truth be told

      Historical inaccuracy name one.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      I'm good right through "In the beginning"

      After that, not so much.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • truth be told

      And be good enough to cite your proof.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • truth be told

      @gop'er that is opinion we are talking historical inaccuracy.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @truth be told

      Do you subscribe to the literal 6 day creation? This will be important to the actual argument.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." - Genesis 1:1

      Archbishop James Ussher: 22 October 4004 BCE

      Young-Earth Creationists: 6000 – 10,000 years ago

      Jehovah's Witnesses: 46,026 BCE

      Old-Earth Creationists: Somewhere between 10,000 and 20 billion years

      Catholic Church: The date cannot be determined from the bible

      August 10, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • truth be told

      You are in a pre history .There are multiple interpretations of creation, not having been there, we cannot say. We can neither prove nor disprove creation as presented, the evidence we have suggests we are here. Do you have a historical date for the beginning of time? The question was for historical inaccuracies not theory on pre history.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:02 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      exlonghorn.. those were my thoughts as well...

      August 10, 2012 at 7:04 pm |
    • Science

      @TBT

      How's about Noah's Ark fable? We don't have any evidence there was a humongous flood that killed every animal and plant, what about a giant ark that could hold every plant and animal that exists in nature today, not to mention food to sustain them all for 40 days.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @truth be told

      Pre-recorded history does not automatically mean we cannot know anything about it, but I'll play along. How about there are no historical records from the egyptian empire of 600,000 families of Israelites were ever enslaved, let alone 10 plagues happening and a pharaoh and his army dieing in pursuit after he let them go? Then there is the utter lack of archaeological evidence to support the assertion that this massive amount of people wandered in the desert for 40 years?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:06 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      @tbt

      It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:13 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      Hello? TBT? Where are you?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:19 pm |
    • Science

      @The Vocal Atheist

      To be fair, jews are born with a terrible sense of direction. They probably made it to China before realizing they went the wrong way..... which is why we eat chinese food on christmas

      August 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      @tbt

      God creates droughts by causing "heaven to shut up" as a punishment for sin.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:27 pm |
    • truth be told

      Away for a moment. Egypt is still not fully explored, so all the evidences for the exodus are incomplete, we do know there is a nation of Israel peopled by the descendants of Abraham, and that thy came from somewhere. There are circu mstantial evidences of locations mentioned in the exodus but there is not enough physical evidence to honestly say it did not occur.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
    • fred

      Science
      There would need to be enough food for at least 150 days not 40. It rained for 40 days but it took another 110 days to find dry land.
      Not to worry Science always changes when presented with new evidence. The Bible on the other hand is the truth which does not change.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      welcome. Yes science does change with new evidence. That's one of the really great things about it.

      So we're agreed. Jefferson was a deist? Not a full-on believer and not an atheist?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
    • truth be told

      One reply posted by itself. Sorry

      August 10, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      The bible can be interpreted to mean anything anyone wants it to. Who cares if it "changes?" But of course it has, time upon time upon time.

      And of course, god changes his mind all the time. Covenant change.. Ooops! Two verses in the OT say that 1. God has never even had the thought of making his creation suffer in fire and 2. that the dead know nothing and do not exist, while many verses in the NT talk about god's never-ending torture pit and that the dead know all sorts of horror for all eternity. Make up your mind, fvckwad god, are you the most horrific torturer of all existence or a guy who lets people cease to exist?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm |
    • Science

      fred

      I'm sorry, were you trying to show me at fault by making an unbelievable story even more unbelievable? That's the worst debate tactic ever.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:39 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @truth be told

      A lack of evidence against makes no sense. If something is proposed to have happened (let's say the Icaris story) would you wait until they proved it wrong to not believe it? Saying there is not enough evidence that it didn't happen doesn't make any sense.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • exlonghorn

      @truth

      If you buy talking snakes, 600-year-old zookeepers, worldwide floods (which have absolutely ZERO proof in the fossil or geological record), and the Earth being created in a day, then I guess you'll pretty much believe anything.

      Hey, did you know that water can be turned into wine and the read sea can be parted at will? I bet you did, and totally buy that as well. Heck, I guess EVERYTHING is possible, as long as it's in your little black book.

      Say, what do you think of modern-day faith healers? You know...guys like Benny Hinn?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • truth be told

      Reply to Noah on another thread

      August 10, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • truth be told

      At this point what you call historical inaccuracies are no more than unproven allegations dealing with pre history. There are several thousand years of known history where is the Bible inaccurate in those?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:46 pm |
    • truth be told

      @exlonghorn
      we are not buying or selling anything you said there were historical inaccuracies, provide some with your proofs please.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
      • exlonghorn

        @TBT

        "you said there were historical inaccuracies, provide some with your proofs please."

        Just so we are clear, I'm not the one making insanely outrageous claims here. The burden of proof is on YOU. But I'll point out some other errors. You were wrong about Mao, you were wrong about Hitler, and I actually don't recall anything you've been right about (that could be verified independently).

        August 10, 2012 at 8:44 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TBT,

      I forget the 'reply' button more often than I care to admit. It's more helpful if you can repost them in context. Thanks!

      "The Flood" is a Mesopotamian fable. Refer to the 'Epic of Gilgamesh'. The whole ark story is there centuries before the Jews. Abraham and his entourage brought these stories with him from Ur.

      The notion of the flood covering the whole world is quite plasible in the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates, particularly if you think in terms of the flood covering the whole (known) world. The world as understood by the early bronze age Mesopotamians (Sumer and Ur, etc).

      The flood story is a retranslated fable, no doubt with roots in some truth – likely a major flood of the Tigris and Euprhates in antiquity. A story that grew over time with the likely addition of some good Sumerian air-borne yeast fermented ale.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:49 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @truth be told

      The exodus story falls well within the time of recorded history of many cultures, egypt being one of them.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Check this out regarding the Epic of Gilgamesh Tablet XI.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

      Compare and contrast with Noah. It's no surprise this shows up in the Hebrew tradition. It's the "whole world" bit that the literalists get all worked up over.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      The bible was not assembled to be either an historical text or a scientific one. That is why it cannot be read and interpreted in a literal fashion.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:55 pm |
      • exlonghorn

        Then exactly how can it be so vigorously trumpeted as the "truth"...the one and only infallible "truth"? I mean, how does that make the Bible any more or less the truth than Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, the Koran, or any other fiction?

        August 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      @Chick-a-dee

      The bible is a book of collected myths–that's what it appears to be, and that's exactly how it functions. It's for myth-believers and no one else.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:17 pm |
    • exlonghorn

      @tbt

      Where are the historical inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon?

      August 10, 2012 at 8:18 pm |
    • Dave

      Gloating is typical of an atheist believing their own lies.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one, along with the gang up routine. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:10 am |
      • exlonghorn

        Dave,

        At least Atheist aren't out to force their beliefs on the rest of America...

        From the website you linked:

        WallBuilders' goal is to exert a direct and positive influence in government, education, and the family by (1) educating the nation concerning the Godly foundation of our country; (2) providing information to federal, state, and local officials as they develop public policies which reflect Biblical values; and (3) encouraging Christians to be involved in the civic arena.

        August 11, 2012 at 9:05 am |
  15. Reality

    In case you missed this in May:--–>>>>>>>>>>>

    “WallBuilders' founder and president, David Barton, resides in Aledo, Texas (just west of Fort Worth), with his wife, Cheryl, and their three children. David spent eight years as an educator and school administrator before founding WallBuilders. "

    So how did he become a scholar in US history and religion? Anybody know?

    And let us review MR. Barton's finances as per guidestar.org (See Wallbuilders).

    Salary: he pays himself = $108,049 (he, his wife and his mother make up 50% of the board of directors),

    Then there are those other unspecified salaries of $288,872 (his mother and wife?),

    He billed Wallbuilders travel expenses of $67,000 in 2009.

    And then there is the securities portfolio of $1,149,239 where he/Wallbuilder pays no tax on interest, dividends or capital gains because Wallbuiders is a "non-profit".

    Hmmmm???????

    August 10, 2012 at 6:03 pm |
    • ....

      BULL SH IT ALERT

      August 10, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • Dave

      Reality is jealous of everyone.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one, along with the gang up routine. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:10 am |
  16. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained. – Mahatma Ghandi

    This book looked supicious when it was first published. My doubts are substantiated!

    I really love it when revisionist junk history gets debunked. I am enjoying my moment of guiltless schadenfreude for this yahoo.

    Truth stands!

    August 10, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • Huebert

      Yeah this article brought a big smile to my face as well.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • truth be told

      Truth is not determined by a publishing company or by barton.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Here's David Barton with his "Lies" himself, talking with Jon ...

      http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-may-1-2012/david-barton

      August 10, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      So ... 'truth be told'

      you agree that David Barton is full of shite then?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • truth be told

      No I agree that Truth is not found in either instance. Just as Truth is not found in you.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:58 pm |
    • Huebert

      @GOP

      I saw that episode when it aired, it's one of my favorites.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Jon (to David as rebuttal on the 'atheist attack on Xtianity'):
      "On the flip side it's* the most accepted thing we have other than say, snack foods"

      He would know. Gotta love that one!

      * Christianity

      August 10, 2012 at 6:03 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @truth be told,

      Sure ... absolute "truth" is unknowable.

      I completely agree.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • truth be told

      Truth is knowable

      August 10, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • exlonghorn

      As along as truth does not involve any reference to the Bible, we can agree that some truths are knowable, some truths remain unknown but knowable, and some truths may never be known.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @exlonghorn,

      we could argue that the sciences are a search for truth, but by definition are never perfect – never an absolute 'truth'. With more evidence and when a better model comes along we adapt the theory. (Famously Newtonian mechanics versus relativity; aether versus Michelson-Morley and light.)

      No serious philosopher will ever tell you that absolute truth can be known. Then they're out of a job. 😉

      Only the religionists believe in absolute truth. And they just belive what pleases them uncritically.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm |
    • Dave

      It's you atheist that want to rewrite history.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one, along with the gang up routine. David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:11 am |
    • Les Too

      Mr. Barton apparently did not read the private letters sent back and forth by the 7 founding fathers. Six were Deists and one was Xtian. The intent of the Freedom of Religion clause was to build "an impenetrable wall" between religion and government. The letters and personal journals clearly support this statement. The Xtian voice was rightfully silenced by ignoring it and we have a secular government as the direct result of that. BTW, morality is not defined by Xtian principles but rather by humanitarian principles.

      August 13, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
  17. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things

    August 10, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
    • Jesus

      `Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!

      August 10, 2012 at 5:33 pm |
    • kindless

      Actually, atheism is wonderful for children and all people! Prayer as it turn out, is just a time-sucker-upper. Who would've thought.

      Atheists have strong minds and are good at helping weak-minded people work through their struggles with other people or the imaginary forces or obstacles that men have made up. Atheists encourage people to take responsibility for their actions within society instead of having their misdeeds excused and often hidden within their religion (comforting their weak minds, but simultaneously disserving society).

      Break the matrix of deception by all religions.

      If the thought leaving your imaginary friends behind is just too much, or makes you want to go p00py, then try Atheism Lite™ (agnosticism) for a period of time to ease your way into a much more rewarding, peaceful life.

      It is written. RIF

      heavenSnot

      August 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • truth be told

      Atheists have murdered more people in the last 100 years than were killed in all previous centuries.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • Huebert

      I asked you to prove this claim on another board and you never did? Why would you make a claim and then run when someone ask for a demonstration?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • just sayin

      You are here. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • just sayin

      Truth is a statement that stands alone it needs no proof it just is. Here are two wonderful Truths. First that atheism is totally useless and second that God is available for conversation. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      Prayer changes things
      Proven

      August 10, 2012 at 5:40 pm |
    • just wondering

      Will kindless now be telling us how healthy murder is?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:41 pm |
    • just wondering

      Will kindless now be telling us how healthy murder is ?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • Huebert

      @JS

      I didn't say prove I said demonstrate. So far you have failed to do so. Also saying you prayed for me to follow you to this board after I ave already followed you is not proof. You would need to state your prayer, prayer for the desired result, and then have the result come true. Also, you would need to pray for something that could not happen, except through divine interference. Otherwise it would be impossible to tell if it was the prayer that caused the effect or some other intervening variable.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:46 pm |
    • just sayin

      Hubie it was already explained to you. Sorry about you. God bless.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
    • Huebert

      @JS

      No it wasn't. Why do you refuse to do what you claim to be capable of? Is it because your claim is complete and total bunk, and you know it?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • truth be told

      Yes it was and truthfully you are showing yourself to be a person not worth talking with.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • Huebert

      Round and round we go.

      No you never explained anything. I have asked you for a demonstration of a claim that you made and you have refused to provide such. You have offered excuses but no explanation or demonstration.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • truth be told

      I read the exchange it was explained to you, and here you are again starting all over.This shows you to be a person without character and unworthy of additional response.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:09 pm |
    • Huebert

      @truth be told

      You are just sayin who do you think you are fooling?

      August 10, 2012 at 6:11 pm |
    • truth be told

      Assertions without proof can be dismissed without proof.You are dismissed

      August 10, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • Hitler

      Are we able to report for spam? Because I see this comment everywhere, its annoying.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Truth

      I like how you don't even bother to deny it.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:15 pm |
    • exlonghorn

      truth be told rather ignorantly said...

      "Atheists have murdered more people in the last 100 years than were killed in all previous centuries."

      1. Prove it.
      2. Your point is irrelevant regardless because the Earth's population has grown near-exponentially. The number of deaths is not relevant. The number of deaths as a percentage of all deaths by all beliefs in the same time frame IS relevant.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:21 pm |
    • truth be told

      Do the math, atheists around the globe have had an unrestrained habit of killing into the millions if not more. Mao counts for over 800 million by himself not counting the wars these atheistic despots were responsible for. On closer examination you will also find many murdered in previous centuries were killed by atheists as well and credited as "Christians"

      August 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TBT

      Ummm ... the consensus estimates for Mao (including the famines) are 49M – 78M. I think 800M is just a bit over the top. Bit carried away there with the extra zero don'tcha think?

      August 10, 2012 at 6:42 pm |
    • Rebel4Christ

      If atheism is so good why is it that atheists are the most bitter depressed people on earth!!

      August 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm |
    • kindless

      I might discuss with "truth be told" the issue of murder by atheists, although I find their claim to be ridiculous. I won't answer "just wondering" – I make a point to avoid back-seat drivers – especially when I feel the point is ridiculous.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      atheists are the most bitter depressed people on earth

      Who told ya that JohnnyReb? Your pastor?

      Please point me to where that is substantiated.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • kindless

      Oh, but Rebel4Christ, atheists are not depressed people at all. Not sure where you got that notion. We more time on our hands to live life than religious people, so things are much easier that way. It's all good.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • just wondering

      In other words kindless says murder is healthy

      August 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • Rebel4Christ

      You literally just proved my point! Why do you have to say it so rudely? And I actually know atheists and yes they are very depressed and bitter and rude in fact ive never met one that's not.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @JohnnyReb,

      "so rudely". T'was but a pun. Tis not a scratch on what const'tutes real rudeness around here.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Rebel

      So your tiny little experiences, if true, is now automatically applicable to the entire world? Good job with the logic fail.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:53 pm |
    • Rebel4Christ

      Hawaiiguest you just proved my point!!! you guys are so rude!!! Atheist always get rude for some reason during arguments!

      August 10, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • kindless

      "Mao counts for over 800 million by himself "

      Oh truth be told, you silly – he was a ruler, a politician. And I really don't think it's helpful to associate him with atheism any more than Christians want to be associated with Hitler or Buddhists being associated with Pol Pot. It just doesn't help to make those kinds of generalizations.

      August 10, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Rebel

      You are avoiding the point that your experiences is not automatically indicative of the entire world. Also, how was I being rude, by calling you out on an illogical conclusion of yours?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:02 pm |
    • Rebel4Christ

      "good Job with the Logic fail" how is that not rude Hawaiiguest?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Rebel

      If you find that rude, then that's your problem. Considering that I wasn't saying anything about your person, or any part of your life, nor did I say anything about your overall intelligence, and merely pointed out the failure of your logic within your argument, a logic fail is a very apt term.
      Should I give you little taps to spare your self-righteous indignation? I demonstrated a logical failure, and called it that. Now, if I just said "FAIL LOGIC YOU SUCK" and nothing else, then you would have a point.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:11 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Rebel4Christ,

      since my "JohnnyReb" quip seems to have put you off your dinner, don't you think we found your assertion that (and I quote)
      "atheists are the most bitter depressed people on earth" a bit rude and insulting?

      It's a generalization, which automatically makes it wrong, like all generalizations and it says we are more depressed than the clinically depressed (which certainly includes many Christians), and includes those that are insane; simply because we don't believe in God.

      Why are you surprised that we reacted 'rudely' to your arrogant rudeness in the first place? Really?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:11 pm |
    • pATHEISTic

      Atheists are pathetic, miserable and (often) hysterical.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm |
    • truth be told

      Hitler was an atheist, historical fact. The over 250 million killed by war and murder were the direct result of hitlers atheism.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
    • Science

      @TBT

      Do you lie on purpose or do you actually believe it? Hitler, of course, was a Christian. That's well docu.mented. That's besides the point because Hitler, nor anyone actually, has ever killed anyone in the name of atheism. Same can not be said for just about every religion to ever grace this planet.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @TBT,

      consensus estimates for total WW2 casualties including civiliand deaths from famines and bombings (including atomics) and the Nazi holocaust are in the order of 62M – 78M (including no more than 25M military dead).

      Where on earth do you get 250M? Or 800M Chinese victims of Mao. Are you just wantonly trolling now.

      ps. Hitler (born and raised Catholic) used religion to engage the masses. He would have been nothing but for his Christian German followers.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
    • exlonghorn

      @truth be told

      Okay, so let's ask the next question. Did Mao murder BECAUSE he was Atheist? Not at all, He murdered in order to keep people in line working on various projects, to punish people for a wide range of crimes, and other non-religious reasons.

      Even if Mao WAS an atheist, your point is...well...pointless. You're suggesting a cause – effect relationship that you cannot prove exists. To the contrary, sources such as scholar Frank Dikotter, of Hong Kong University back my viewpoint.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • exlonghorn

      @truth be told

      Now you're either ignorant, totally undereducated, or simply a liar by suggesting that Hitler was an atheist.

      I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

      – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

      Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

      – Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7

      Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

      – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

      May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.

      – Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933

      I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.

      – Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

      August 10, 2012 at 8:13 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      http://www.sciencecodex.com/prayer_increases_forgiveness

      Prayer psychology – it increases forgiveness and preserves relationships, says study

      We have all been guilty of a transgression at one time or another. That's because we're not perfect. We all commit hurtful acts, violate trust, and hope for forgiveness.

      That's simply a fact, and here's another one: Nine out of 10 Americans say that they pray—at least on occasion. Florida State University psychologist Nathaniel Lambert put these two facts together and came up with an idea: Why not take all that prayer and direct it at the people who have wronged us? Is it possible that directed prayer might spark forgiveness in those doing the praying—and in the process preserve relationships?

      Lambert and his colleagues decided to test this scientifically in two experiments appearing in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science. In the first, they had a group of men and women pray one single prayer for their romantic partner's well being. Others—the experimental controls—they simply described their partner, speaking into a tape recorder.

      Then they measured forgiveness. The scientists defined forgiveness as the diminishing of the initial negative feelings that arise when you've been wronged. Their results showed that those who had prayed for their partner harbored fewer vengeful thoughts and emotions: They were more ready to forgive and move on.

      If one single prayer can cause such a striking difference in feelings, then what could prayer over a period of time do for a relationship? In a second study, the researchers had a group of men and women pray for a close friend every day for four weeks. Others simply reflected on the relationship, thinking positive thoughts but not praying for their friend's well-being. They also added another dimension. They used a scale to measure selfless concern for others—not any particular person but other people generally. They speculated that prayer would increase selfless concern, which in turn would boost forgiveness.

      And that's just what they found. But why? How does this common spiritual practice exert its healing effects? The psychological scientists have an idea: Most of the time, couples profess and believe in shared goals, but when they hit a rough patch, they often switch to adversarial goals like retribution and resentment. These adversarial goals shift cognitive focus to the self, and it can be tough to shake that self-focus. Prayer appears to shift attention from the self back to others, which allows the resentments to fade.

      Source: Association for Psychological Science

      August 10, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
  18. WASP

    so to sum this up.........the religious freak got busted lying pretty much about everything this nation was built on. ROFLMFAO. that's the religious right for you.........get obama out at any means and lie to get what they wish was true.

    August 10, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Where's fred when you need him?

      He's big on the whole "the founders were Christians" argument.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
  19. Really-O?

    Will you look at that! Another evangelical hack exposed for peddling dishonest nonsense.

    August 10, 2012 at 5:28 pm |
    • save the world and slap some sense into a christard today!

      In other words a christard of the highest order

      August 10, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
  20. lol

    Mr Barton = total FAIL

    August 10, 2012 at 5:27 pm |
    • LOL!

      The book was best selling. Only Thomas Nelson and HANDFUL athiests disagree with it. But of course, as the publisher, he has the final say as long as his jurisdiction is concerned.

      We'll just see how it goes in court, or, at the SCOTUS.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:12 pm |
    • Nah

      @lol,

      Nah, Barton would never want his stuff exposed in court. I'm not up on publishing law, but he'll probably just change a couple of words here and there and get a Christian publishing house to reissue it.

      Believers have no gag reflexes - they'll buy anything.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:17 pm |
    • Nah

      that was for @LOL, not @lol...

      August 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm |
    • lol!

      there's zero reason for the US Supreme Court to look at the case.
      ZERO.
      you dont know sh!t about law, do you?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm |
    • han

      @Nah

      You seem so confused.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm |
    • SCOTUS

      If we find a probable cause, then why not?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Believers have no gag reflexes too funny.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
    • LOL!

      All I know is that, everyone has the right to sue and can be sued. And in every case, it will be the court who'll decide, NOT you.

      Won't you mind enlighten has here how much you know about law, "ZERO"?

      August 10, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
    • pATHEISTic

      Athheists cut their nails using their teeth.

      August 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
    • Dave

      Not so fast lol.

      Atheists, as usual, are pulling a fast one, along with the gang up routine, throw the bull and see what sticks.

      David Barton – 07/12/2012 takes on his critics.

      http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

      August 11, 2012 at 4:13 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.