August 13th, 2012
10:03 AM ET
First on CNN: Atheist group targets presidential candidates' faith with billboards
By Dan Merica, CNN
Washington (CNN) - A prominent atheist group is using next month's Democratic National Convention to take aim at the presidential candidates' religion, putting up billboards targeting Mormonism and Christianity in Charlotte, North Carolina.
“Our political system is rife with religion and it depends too much on religion and not enough on substance," said David Silverman, president of American Atheists, sponsor of the ads.
"Religion is silly and religion has components that are inherently divisive. … There is no place for any of that in the political system,” he said.
The billboards go up Monday in Charlotte and will stay up for a month at a cost of roughly $15,000. The Democratic convention runs September 3-6.
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The billboard targeting Christianity features an image of Jesus Christ on toast and this description of the faith: "Sadistic God; Useless Savior, 30,000+ Versions of ‘Truth,’ Promotes Hates, Calls it ‘Love.’ ”
The billboard targeting Mormonism lambastes - and, Mormons would say, distorts - specific Mormon doctrines: "God is a Space Alien, Baptizes Dead People, Big Money, Big Bigotry.”
The Mormon billboard features a man in white underwear, a reference to special Mormon garments.
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Both billboards feature the line "Atheism: Simply Reasonable."
American Atheists had wanted to put the anti-Mormon billboard in Tampa, Florida, to coincide with the Republican National Convention there later this month. Presumptive GOP nominee Mitt Romney is a Mormon. When no billboard company in the city would lease the group space for such a sign, Silverman said the organization decided to focus solely on the Democrats in Charlotte.
“Presidential conventions are for ideas, not ideology - platforms, not platitudes," Silverman said. "If a person believes stupid things, we have every right to question his or her judgment, and that directly impacts how the nonreligious voter votes.”
CNN Belief Blog: Atheist leader hopes to mobilize closeted nonbelievers
Some religious leaders said the billboards showed a misunderstanding of how faith works.
"That billboard makes the most common high-school error when it comes to atheism," wrote the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author, in an e-mail to CNN. "It's not arguing against the existence of God, but against religion. The American Atheists need to go back to school on this one."
Martin also questioned the language used on the billboard: "And as for 'promoting hate' they're doing a bang-up job themselves with that billboard."
Terryl Givens, a Mormon professor at the University of Richmond, called American Atheists "petty and vindictive."
“If this example of adolescent silliness is what atheists mean by being reasonable, then neither Mormons nor other Christians have much to worry about," he said of the billboards. "When atheists organize to serve the poor and needy of the world, they will be taken more seriously."
CNN Belief Blog: Unbelieving preachers 'come out' as atheists
It's not the first time the American Atheists group has released in-your-face billboards. Earlier this year, the group put up two billboards in heavily Muslim and Jewish enclaves in New Jersey and New York bearing messages in Arabic and Hebrew.
“You know it’s a myth … and you have a choice,” the billboards said. At the time, Silverman said the signs were intended to reach atheists in Muslim and Jewish areas who may feel isolated because they are surrounded by believers.
In addition to the billboards, Silverman said his group plans to stage protests at both conventions.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
Atheism is the belief that there is no god. According to the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy: “Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.”Buddhism is atheistic in the sense of denying that there is any overarching deity such as the Creator-God of the Bible. Atheism in the western sense excludes Buddhism, and adherents claim that it is not a religion. One Atheist said: “Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour”2 However, atheists make such claims so Atheism can avoid legal imperatives placed on religions in many countries, and can avoid some of the ideological hang-ups people have about “religion”. It also creates a false dichotomy between science (which they claim must be naturalistic and secular) and religion. Atheism3 will be defined in the contemporary western sense: not just the lack of belief in a god, but the assertion about the non-existence of any gods, spirits, or divine or supernatural beings. Atheists in this sense are metaphysical naturalists, and as will be shown, they DO follow a religion.
Uh-oh, the athiests will not be amused by this.
I find the choice of where to end the quote most interesting.
This whole rather pointless and unprovebale argument about atheism being a "religion" depends entirely on how you define religion. If it is considered to be how we deal with the meaning of life, then atheism and agnosticism probably would qualify. It's pretty irrelevent anyway. Semantics doesn't change anything.
"atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. As such, it is usually distinguished from theism, which affirms the reality of the divine and often seeks to demonstrate its existence. Atheism is also distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question whether there is a god or not, professing to find the questions unanswered or unanswerable."
(from the Encyclopedia Britannica online)
"...denial of metaphysical beliefs..."
it is a belief, it is not a religion. why is that so hard for you to understand?
What is really to gain if the god believers succeed in labeling atheism a "religion?" What then?
Tax breaks for Atheist groups?
Atheism is cancer of society
Are you sure it's not cancer that's the cancer of our society?
Yes, and it's atheism.
Uh.. what? Cancer is cancer and atheism is cancer. Something's not adding up.
atheists always mentions "Zeus". Question is how many followers do Zeus have? None.
Jesus has 2.2 billion followers PLUS 1.5 billion Muslims who believe in him 🙂
So the amount of people that believe make it true? Gee, I wonder why no one felt the earth changing from flat to spherical when enough people believed it.
"PLUS 1.5 billion Muslims who believe in him"
Don't you mean 1.5 billion muslims who DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD.
There are ~7 billion people in the world, so at 3.7 there is a majority that believe Jesus existed, but at 4.8 billion (7 – 2.2) there is a major that don't believe Jesus was divine/savior/messiah/whatever.
Apparently Christians lose the vote.
Can someone please explain how paying for a billboard that's arguing against something they don't believe in is "reasonable"?
Sure. You see, the god believers think they are reasonable, so that's the important bit. It would be like if you lived in a place where most people believed in unicorns and wanted to have laws passed because of their belief in unicorns and wanted special privileges because of their unicorn belief and wanted to change school textbooks because of their unicorn belief. At some point, you and the other non-unicorn believers might put a billboard, right?
If you and I were a residents of the Emerald City and I discovered that The Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz was just a man behind a curtain pulling levers and using smoke and mirrors to spew fire and brimstone, would you consider it "reasonable" for me to speak up?
"arguing against something they don't believe in"
We believe (yea, know) that Believers exist.. and what their agenda is... and there's the rub.
If I lived in a country where the majority of people believed in unicorns or the Wizard of Oz I'd probably move. Seems more reasonable than stomping my feet and demanding that everyone stop believing in things that I don't believe in.
So let's get this straight:
1. You ask a stupid fvcking question because you lack the critical reasoning skills to understand why it's a stupid fvcking question.
2. Several atheists answer you graciously.
3. You do NOT thank those individuals or express how you recognize the error apparent in your question.
4. You express that if you were in our shoes you'd move away from your family and friends and the only "home" you'd ever known rather than stick up a piece of vinyl on a street like billions of other groups (yours included) do every single hour of the day.
Lemme guess. You just can't figure out why atheists get aggravated with the typical christian?
@Anon A. Mouse
So if you lived in a country where the majority of people believed in racial discrimination and you didn't you'd probably move. Seems more reasonable to you than advocating against believing in things that you don't believe in.
Anon, you seem a bit slow on the uptake. It isn't a matter of objecting to what the majority believe, or insisting they stop believing in it. That isn't what most atheists or agnostics do; it's a matter of objecting when the majority insist that those who don't believe as they do adhere to their beliefs and laws and not those enacted under the Consti tution.
If you don't believe something exists ... go right ahead and continue not believing it. However, the fact that Atheists think they're somehow different from Theists when they try to convert people to their ideology, is laughable. The Atheist brand of proselytization is no different than any other religion looking for converts.
So, basically what you're saying is people shouldn't vote and make laws based on their ideology (Theism) ... but instead should vote and make laws based on yours (Atheism). Because theirs is stupid and yours isn't ... because you've handily self-defined your ideology as "neutral" and "reasonable." Cool trick.
ALL ATHEISTS.... I HOPE YOU DIE IN CANCER AND PAINFUL DEATH!
How Christian of you!
One militant form brings another militant form. Never ending cycle. You have Atheist saying some pretty mean things today and did you think that the smell of blood in the water would not bring the extremes of our side out as well?
Mark from Middle River,
How many atheists have called for slow and painful deaths for Christians here?
How many Christians have Observer?
Christians – 1
Atheists – 0
Victory for Christians?
Observer..I think you need to recount. I see not Christians on here that called for anyone to have a slow painful death. Have you?
I see someone that goes by "!"...probably an agnostic. Just as likely as anyone else right?
Any explanation for the coward with the profane name who spams brainless lies about atheists with a cross next to them and is too chicken to answer questions?
“ALL ATHEISTS.... I HOPE YOU DIE IN CANCER AND PAINFUL DEATH!”
And that is just another piece of evidence that god does not exist. The chances of atheists dying a painful death from cancer is exactly the same as for Christians. Exactly what you would expect if there was no god
Observer- "Keep wishing."
Keep wishing what? The person that made the original comment could just as well be agnostic as Christian. You simply do not have the factual evidence to say it was a Christian.
It cannot be proven that the blogger is Christian, but it is highly likely. Agnostics, being in a middle ground, are less likely to be so adamant. Keep wishing it's a Christian, but the odds are against you.
Don't be stupid, Entil'za. You know full well that the chances of it being a christian and an agnostic are not "equal." The chance that it was an agnostic isn't zero, but it's nowhere near as high as the chances it was a god-believer.
Ent, the same moron just posted this:
atheists always mentions "Zeus". Question is how many followers do Zeus have? None.
Jesus has 2.2 billion followers PLUS 1.5 billion Muslims who believe in him
Do you really think that ! is Muslim? Agnostic?
I'm not wishing it was christian, agnostic or anything like that. Seems that you are wishing it was a Christians though. So...keep wishing.
Tom..are you drunk again?
@Moby Schtick- "You know full well that the chances of it being a christian and an agnostic are not "equal." "
Just on the facts...it's probably just a troll but Observer had to let bias get in the way and say Christian without any evidence. You agree with the course of action he took?
No, you jerk, I'm not "drunk" or high. Can you read or do you need to have someone help you?
Do you understand the difference between "bias" and probability?
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son- "No, you jerk, I'm not "drunk" or high. Can you read or do you need to have someone help you?"
Sorry...maybe I should have asked if you were into the hooch...that is so much more like you.
My comment came out because you quoted something I did not say.
Sorry, no. We're dealing with your choice of terms, now.
Of course it was a troll. Do you say that the chances are about the same that it was a christian troll or an agnostic troll, or is the chance higher for one of those options.
Observer- "Do you understand the difference between "bias" and probability?"
Quite..and based on my general take on your past comments, it was more bias than probability that made you say it was a Christian.
@Moby Schtick- "Do you say that the chances are about the same that it was a christian troll or an agnostic troll, or is the chance higher for one of those options."
No idea what the possibilities are in this case. Heck, given the amount of vile atheists on here...it could be one of them just causing trouble for the sake of causing trouble. Mission accomplished if that is the case.
"The person that made the original comment could just as well be agnostic as Christian.'
Nope. You don't understand probability.
@Observer- You don't understand bias.
Observer- "How Christian of you!"
The username was neutral, showing no signs of affiliation. Obvious intent on making people upset for that sake alone. No evidence of any kind as to who the person is...yet you @ssumed they were Christian. Nah...your thinking is not biased at all.
Entil'za, you seem to understand "bias" and "probability" equally well–not very. You're arguing for more acuity in the critical thinking of others with decidedly uncritical thought. As your posts elucidate.
What percentage of non-atheists are Christians?
What percentage of non-atheists are agnostics?
"The person that made the original comment could just as well be agnostic as Christian.'
Not remotely close. So much for probability.
Moby...keep to your paygrade.
But hey, I guess you feel it's ok to make @ssumptions upon people you know nothing about. If someone makes a vile comment...sure, go ahead an @ssume it was a Christian. That type of thinking seems to fit your personality.
"The person that made the original comment could just as well be agnostic as Christian.'
Care to prove the commentor was Christian? Yes...or no.
Any you keep to your stupid argumentation. I'm happy to witness your ridiculous attempts.
On one hand, you want to argue that the chances are equal that it was an agnostic or a christian, and on the other hand you want to judge those who "a.ssume." As if your position that the chances are equal isn't more of an a.ssumption than anything else anybody here has written. LOL!!! Classic.
Sorry you missed my questions about the probability that led to my statements.
What percentage of non-atheists are Christians?
What percentage of non-atheists are agnostics?
!: Wow, how incredibly insightful. Congrats on getting those synapses to fire, cvnt
Moby Schtick- "Any you keep to blab blab blab..look at me write....blab blab blab... On one hand, you want to argue that the chances are equal that it was an agnostic or a christian,"
Not exactly the intent of my comment..no. The factual evidence available dicates that it's silly to put any religious affliation upon this person. Given the varied number of people on here, there are no stats (unless you want to provide some) of who is on here and what their religious or nonreligious affiliations are.
It's funny...do you think Observer was making a comment based on probabilty with no bias? Are you that dense?
Observer- "Sorry you missed my questions about the probability that led to my statements."
Actually...no, I just ignored them since they are not relevant to the orginal comment you made.
I am guessing you have answers..if so, you may post them if they amuse you to.
Now my question that you ignored however is relevant. Can you prove that the original commentor was a Christian? Yes or no.
You made a statment of fact...but do you have any evidence that can be proven to back up that statement? I would say no but I could be wrong...please enlighten us.
Are you still stumped about the probabilities of someone being an agnostic versus someone being a Christian?
How mature you are, Entil'za! You're such a pleasure to discuss ideas with and you're not a dvchebag at all!!
YOU are the one a.ssuming. First, you a.ssume that someone else is using bias instead of probability, then you a.ssume something completely illogical (that the chances are equal when they aren't), then you a.ssume that you aren't the one making the most a.ssumptions and that you couldn't possibly be wrong about any of your previous a.ssumptions which causes you to a.ssume more and more and say more and more stupid sh!t.
Again, I beg you. Keep on posting exactly as you have so far. It's a pleasure to witness.
Pretty damn funny that Et popped off with "pot, kettle" at me for being rude and dismissive.
Can you prove that the original commentor was a Christian? Yes or no.
Why? Will it make any difference?
@Moby Schtick- Hmm, name calling. That seems typical of your ilk.
Your hypocrisy is a joy to watch.
So...you do not think that Observer was biased in any way? Yes?
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son- "Why? Will it make any difference?"
Is that the question you ask when someone makes a factual statement about God existing and someone asks them to prove their statement?
GOd existing is not a factual statement, it is an unsupported assertion.
Enty, when did anyone make such a 'factual statement'?
The only 'fact' is that some nitwit made a statement that god exists. If you can provide evidence, then do so. Otherwise, you're full of crap.
@hawaiiguest- I think you are responding to the wrong comment thread.
And how would that be?
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son- "when did anyone make such a 'factual statement'?"
You have never seen anyone on any of these belief boards make a comment saying God is real?
I'm sorry, you misunderstood what I was meaning. I meant when a person makes a statement as a fact such as "God is real". You challenge it I @ssume. Would you accept the type of response as, "Why? Will it make any difference?"
hawaiiguest- "And how would that be?"
Nevermind...you haven't commented on this line yet and I thought you meant to do it elsewhere.
Entloozer, nuff with the dodging laready. Present your proof for the claims of your religion. So far you haven't.
Ah no I posted where I meant to.
Why does anyone's religion interest you sid?
Sid- "Present your proof for the claims of your religion. So far you haven't."
Didn't know I was required to. Are you the moderator of these boards?
the more militant those atheists gets, the more we will put religion in public and enforce it on everyone.
Which religion? It's got to be just one form/denomination/sect since "religion" disagrees on everything.
"the more we will put religion in public and enforce it on everyone"
The day you try to force your fairy tale on me, will be the day I exercise my second amendment right to stop tyranny.
"enforce" it? come and try it, big mouth
Atheism IS a religion that wants members.... look at the billboards. "Join Us".
By your reasoning McDonald's is a religion.
Hey ..... Leave Ronald out of this. 🙁
Aj: Atheism is a philosophy. Religions have sacred books, and churches, and gods....tell us which of those atheists have.
Post all the billboards you want, JESUS will still come back!!! GET READY!
You will be sent to hell and suffer
Veiled and useless threats are the only thing you've been capable of on these borads.
Aj: Still talking like a mouthy little b1tch, are ya? Your god is an impotent little punk. F you, your impotent little deity and the holy pincushion who had a bad weekend for your sins
Few 100% true Reasons why Atheism is TERRIBLE and unhealthy for our children and living things:
† Atheism is a religion that makes you angry, stupid, brainwashed, ignorant & blind..
† Atheism is a disease that needs to be treated.
† Atheism makes you post stupid things (90% of silly comments here on CNN blogs are posted by closet atheists)
† Atheist are satanic and have gothic lifestyle.
† Atheists are misguided and causes problem in our religious & public society.
† Atheists are mentally ill, that's why they have no faith.
† Atheism won't take you to kingdom of heaven and paradise.
† Atheism making you agree with Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler (denied his faith later), Mao, Pol Pot & other terrible mass murder leaders who killed religious people because of their religious cult!
† No traditional family lifestyle, no holidays, no culture, boring and feeling 'outsider'
† Atheists are angry, drug additcted and committ the most crime.
† Atheist try to convert people over internet because they feel "safer" behind closet.
† Atheists do not really exist, they just pretend that they don't believe in God and argue with religious people.
† Atheists have had terrible life experience, bad childhood and not being loved.
† Most atheists are uneducated... No atheists could run for presidency.
† Atheism brought upon the French Revolution, one of the most evil events of all of history.
† Atheism cannot explain the origins of the universe, therefore God exists.
† All atheists believe in evolution, which means they don't believe in morality and think we should all act like animals.
† The Bible says atheism is wrong, and the Bible is always right (see: Genesis 1:1, Psalms 14:1, Psalms 19:1, Romans 1:19-20)
† Countries where Atheism is prevalent has the highest Suicide rate & Communist countries = Atheism!
**Only 2-3% of the U.S. are atheists/agnostics VS. over 90% who believe in God (80% Christians) in the U.S.**
† † Our Prayers goes to atheists to be mentally healthy and seek their creator † †
PS! the USA is a † nation and will always be. You know it's true and stop being ignorant and arrogant!
(Take a look at our federal/state holidays, 99% of our presidents, blue laws in parts of the nation, the majority of people, some laws, calendar, culture, etc.)
Mindless nonsense. Grow up.
Another excellent example of what most Christians think and how religion is destroying itself from within
You state – 'Atheist don't exist'. If that's true – what's the point of the laughable list of yours ?
Compare... Self-declared Atheists are all around you. You can talk to them, touch them, debate with them. But according to you they don't exist.
Whereas, you can't see God, touch him or debate with him. But according to you God does exist.
Obviously thinking is not your strong point.
Im atheist and Im against the billboards. Silverman could go jump off from the bridge
If any of this hate-speech ranting (including the so-called "christian" who dropped the "F-bomb" against all you atheist's) was directed toward Muslims, you and your family would be hunted down by some militant fundamentalist who would slaughter you in your own home. Try it some time with your real name (though I am sure they have their operatives at CNN who can track you down via your email account)...You'd be screaming, "Oh GOD! Oh GOD, please don't kill us!!" (emphasis on "GOD")...That is NOT the case with true followers of JesusNotReligion who pose no threat to you, which is why you are all so bold and belligerant with your posts. Our TRUE message is an offer of of grace, mercy & forgiveness in JesusNotReligion, and we are not here to convince you or convert you! Our message is NOT one of physical harm from us if you choose not to believe that message of hope freely offered to you! We are ALL in this "humanity-thing" together. Our common enemy, "Death", shows no prejudice. Believer's in Jesus for salvation AND unbeliever's ALL DIE JUST THE SAME, so doesn't it stand to reason that true (and ultimate) JUSTICE is waiting on the other side of death's door? You may disagree but I've said my peace without making any personal attacks – and you and your family can sleep safe tonight knowing that I am not out to get you.
JesusNotReligion...RelationshipNotRitual...SalvationbygraceNotByLegalisticWorks! (Typos are possible so go easy on me)...
Glad to know that you will be voting in favour of gay marriage when/if it comes to a vote in your area.
"Death" is NOT an "enemy." In fact, thinking of "death" as a "thing" that happens to us is one of the human mind's greatest tricks. Don't believe the illusion. Yes, one day your brain will cease to function, and then, "you" will not exist with desires or fears.
Mobey...Nice statement of faith...You're not too far from the Kingdom of JesusNotReligion...
There is no "Kingdom of Heaven" and even if there was no one would ever know it because you cease to think about anything when your brain stops functioning.
Moby...I got it, I got it...You don't have faith in Jesus but you have faith in what you believe. OK, as long as you can live AND DIE with that...See you on the other side (according to my faith)...
How stupid are you? I just told you that I believe death to be an illusion and then you threaten me with death and what happens afterward? LOLOLOLOL!!
Are you all there or are you in a bar?
1) I did not threaten you with death...death is a reality for all of us...The capital letters were for emphasis...
2) My point was and IS that you are making statements of faith, just like us "stupid" followers of JesusNotReligion...You have no proof...no evidence...Just blanket statements thatnyou better hope are tru, though, Biblically speaking they are not. Now are you going to call me stupid because I made a statement of faith like you...This oughta be good..."Stupid is as stupid does".
A fool hath said in his heart there is not God.
A fool hath said in his heart there is a God.
What is your point in this comment? Anyone can say totally random sh!t.
That's all God had to say about atheist.....
Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psalm (137:8-9) also says
“O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!”
"The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good."
So what happens if the person says there is no God but they actually aren't corrupt, they don't do abominable deeds and they are very good people. This is the problem with taking snippets from the bible like this, it actually doesn't apply to many good honest non-believers but Christians actually apply this negativity automatically even when it's not justified.
I have this really old book in the back of my closet that says, "Anybody who chooses the name 'Atheist Hunter' on a message posting board is a real dipsh!t." I guess it must be true.
Ohh...a bible verse...I was hoping you'd say something worth a darn.
Funny, I've found the same book on my bookshelf. You're right "Anybody who chooses the name 'Atheist Hunter' on a message posting board is a real dipsh!t."
You forgot to mention that on p39 it also says "Don't believe everything you read in old books. Use your own intelligence to distinguish between fairy tales and reality."
And on p45 is says "don't trust people who believe in blind faith".
What a great book.
Sheesh, these athies are getting nastier and nastier lately. So much anger at Daddy, and it all just get's translated into something as stupid as an unconvincing, non-disuasive (and stupid) billboard. Seriously, are you trying to sway people into basement-dwelling nihilistic rage through a billboard campaign? Give me a break. You want to change perceptions of yourself? then shut up and feed some homeless people, or build a hospital or something.
BTW – where are the Islam-bashing billboards? Oh, I forgot: cowards.
Religion is a form of tourettes that causes people to spout silly quotes from a book like its the real deal. Those who believe in God are simply of a lower intelligence, and will hopefully die out leaving a new age of enlightmentment.
LOL!! Yes, we are "trying to sway people into basement-dwelling nihilistic rage through a billboard campaign" How did you figure it out?
Only for the new members of this blog:
A one-fits-all billboard:
• There was probably no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• There was probably no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
Added details available upon written request.
(see also p. 40)
There is a Jesus and the bible is true...
Jesus brought the evidence with him.
He left that evidence with his disciples and they in turn left that evidence in the earth... It is the gospel of Christ..
the gospel of Christ has the evidence in it.. but only those who are believers get to see it...
you have to believe it to see it... 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
I've got one: a billboard that says, "Atheists: yeah, we still hate our fathers."
I've got one: a billboard that says, "christians: yeah, we were fvcked by our fathers."
How about: Bigots, yeah we act like everyone of a race or creed has all the same experiences and faults...and hair color and eye color, too.
A 21st century update:
JC's family and friends had it right 2000 years ago ( Mark 3: 21 "And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.")
Said passage is one of the few judged to be authentic by most contemporary NT scholars. e.g. See Professor Ludemann's conclusion in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 24 and p. 694.
Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.
Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Many contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospel being mostly fiction.
Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European/Utah white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!
So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher/magic man would do or say?
Believe what you may..In the end the truth will be shown! God, Jesus, Mary and the Holy Spirit are MY choices. Stay out of my business and life!
Zeus will not smile upon you in the afterlife.
Keep your choices out of our laws
May you be touched by His noodly goodness.
Can I get a R'amen?
Ditto what Sam said. Atheists are hardly "in your life". To the contrary, groups like Wallbuilders are constantly pushing themselves into our political, educational, and governmental systems...uninvited I might add. Show me an example of Atheists doing that.
deb you sound intimidated by the doubts of other people...
you ought to be happy when others condemn your faith, yet you seem threatened by their accounts..
read the parable of the sower and pay attention to ground by the way side or that which is stony
Ramen your ass!
You forgot to metion Santa and the Easter Bunny.
Take heart my brothers and sisters!
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, PROUD, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, SLANDEROUS, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, CONCEITED, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God – having a form of godliness but denying its power. HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SUCH PEOPLE. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, ALWAYS LEARNING BUT NEVER ABLE TO COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." ...capitalization added.
I tell you the truth, a Christian on these blogs is an exercise in futility. Pray for these who discount God, but do not let Timothy's words fall on deaf ears! These people are "...always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth." Your relationship with Christ is your faith. It is not something to be taken lightly and certainly nothing that requires you to explain to these weak minded bloggers on this site. Their intelligence lacks the ability to comprehend your faith.
So let them come. Let them slander. Let them mock. We have seen this coming from the beginning. Futile as their efforts, you can be sure they are here to stay. Do not become frustrated, remember the words of those that have come before us and the promises made to us by Christ Himself. Ours is to share the gospel, His is to save people.
Timothy was full of nonsense like discrimination against women.
What was your point in quoting that?
Preach on... just don't let your christian brethren even attempt to bring forth any sound, logical arguments in favor of these theistic claims, for that would erase thousands of years of tradition!
by your own words an exercise in futility.... 🙂
Hmmm.. Did Ayn claim that her philosophy was a "result of" atheism or her take on atheism?
Wish the billboards had more focus on “facts” (God is a space alien, magic underwear, many versions of “truth”) and less focus on rhetoric (“Big Bigotry”, “Promotes Hate”). They would have better chance of being effective.
I quit believing in the Santa Claus Myth because the “facts” didn’t add up
1) Flying reindeer
2) A workshop on a polar ice cap
3) Breaking and entering into millions of homes in one evening
I quit believing in the God Myth because the “facts” didn’t add up
1) Punishing Adam and Eve for seeking an understanding of good and evil
2) Expecting Adam and Eve to be good (obedient) without having an understanding of good and evil
3) Creating, testing, then punishing Adam and Eve instead of creating, testing, and fixing them
4) A flood that killed everyone but Noah’s family yet left Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, Asians, Europeans, Africans all alive
5) Sacrifices (killing and burning animals) being appealing
6) A benevolent Creator that created (Small Pox, Syph.ilis, Gonor.rhea, Polio, ….)
But you're still left unable to explain why the universe exists. Oh, quantum... right. Where did quantum come from? and on and on it goes. Answer that question first and I'll give credence to your viewpoint.
But you're still left unable to explain why the universe exists. Oh, God... right. Where did God come from? and on and on it goes. Answer that question first and I'll give credence to your viewpoint.
"But you're still left unable to explain why the universe exists." Believing you know the answer to this makes not a bit of difference to reality, so why should it matter in the end? Instead of supplying regurgitated answers just to make yourself feel special wouldn't it be better to continue to search for answers until we have solid evidence?
2+2(x) = Universe
Christians say X = Jesus but have no evidence to support this theory but want all the teachers to give them an A+.
Atheists and agnostics say X is still an unknown integer and thus we cannot even begin grading the papers until we have reliable, repeatable evidence as to X's identlty.
Love one another.
absurdity is the mindset of the believers mind and so they produce absurd "evidence" to back up their absurd beliefs and then ask you absurd questions in order to show superiority to you for not believing as they do since they believe you could never answer the questions without the requirement of a god type figure. its a p!$s poor stance to take but many do because they lack the ability to discern fact from fiction. its absurd and arrogant!
You likewise lack evidence to support an atheist position.
You likewise lack evidence to support an atheist position.
And so does the person who does not believe in Unicorns and Blue Dragons. It takes faith to see no reason to believe in gods, Unicorns and Blue Dragons.
i need none for i lack the belief of something. the burden lies with those that make claims. wether god exists or not it doesn't matter for belief without proof is childish and with proof belief dies for knowledge replaces it. knowledge is always better then blind faith.
Their is no such thing as evidence for the null hypothesis. It is up to the claimant, in this case theist, to provide evidence for their hypothesis, that god exist. Until such evidence is provided, the rational position is to accept the null hypothesis.
Christians cannot wrap their head around what you just said.
Sorry Freddy boy... doesn't work that way. You make the claim, you need to provide the evidence.
You can't prove a negative...
Fred's feeble attempt to divert makes him look quite foolish.
By unanimous agreement 56 out of 56 representatives of the American Congress (strong upright intelligent men like; Hanco-ck, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, etc) declared; It was self-evident that men were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights then concluded the declaration with “We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world……
Were they childish or ignorant of the null set?
fred – did you really just ask if a bunch of men 300 plus years ago were ignorant compared to today? and you expect a serious answer? wow – this is what i mean by absurd. they understood things perhaps better then you sure, but were in no way more intelligent then the people today for we have learned much much more in the years since they died. nice try thou. you are getting better fred. keep it up.
@fred – " unanimous agreement 56 out of 56 representatives of the American Congress (strong upright intelligent men like; Hanco-ck, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, etc) declared; It was self-evident that men were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" except for those pesky ne.gros that weren't allowed to vote and considered 3/5ths human. Yeah, those are the guys I want to emulate in every way including their God delusion. You have to pick the baby out of the bathwater, they had a lot of good ideas for governing a free nation with no established religion as they had just been under the thumb of with their British rulers, but to claim them as some kind of Saints to be emulated is just idiotic.
as you say so be it ... your own inability to discern fact from fiction... that's your problem...
while many Christians may be unpolished in debates that does not make them wrong...
Christianity is not meant for debate, but rather to provide the proclamation of Jesus as Lord..
Jesus is Lord...
"men were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
Yes, endowed by my creator. My mother and father.
Does your birth certificate say "God" on it?
And blind assertions do not make you correct.
Whatever new knowledge you are thinking about would never change what is self-evident to these great men. As a matter of fact the more we know about our universe the more God or causation becomes necessary. Thomas Jefferson may have changed his thoughts about the reliability of the New Testament and become a Christian. The New Testament says the Creator is not of our space and time. Low and behold we now know that causation (or God) must have created from outside our known 4 dimensions. Ouch even Hawking had to retreat to the cover of M Theory or acknowledge the possibility of God (not a personal God).
As to Abiogenesis new evidences of the earth’s heavy bombardment period have rendered Primordial soup as unlikely starting point.
The reverse of the atheist model is what we see as the power and scope of the unknown outside our known boundaries continues to grow while the probability of our existence continues to diminish.
No one should bother to respond to fred. He is dishonest, and is intentionally so. He will continually misrepresent, and oftentimes straight out lie. He will then cherrypick responses and go off on irrelevant tangents in order to appear like he is answering. It is a waste of time, and effort.
"Thomas Jefferson may have changed his thoughts about the reliability of the New Testament and become a Christian"
Jefferson wrote his own version of the new testament because he realized it was a complete sack of zhit.
>>>"Sorry Freddy boy... doesn't work that way. You make the claim, you need to provide the evidence.."
Hope you do not mind us Faithful referencing, your comment when a Atheist opens with the claim that there is no God. 🙂
They were not saints and most were not even “good” Christians. As to the Ne-gro I am not clear on how the majority felt. The point being they were not childish but rational and reasonable finding God to be self-evident.
Hawaii, is he a liar to you just because he dared to challenge an Atheist view? I know folks like to be right but to throw out the term liar because folks make a calm non radical response is low. You do not have to agree with the person but dear goodness there should be a bit of respect between folks.
fred i am done with you – i have tried in the past to keep these pointless back and forths but to no avil as you clearly are stuck in your ways as a person who gladly accecpts blind faith as a way of life and then pushes on as if you have something to offer the rest of mankind. You believe in something which lacks any merit to its truth or validity.
Thomas Jefferson could not find evidence to support the Bible. My position was that he would have put a plus in the evidence column for new physical evidence regarding Timmothy’s claim that God is not of this space and time. The Bible is unique in this claim.
No doubt he had a problem with religions abuse or potential for abuse but he was Deist with Biblical morals.
fred, having biblical morals is not something to be proud of. unless you don't frown at the idea of stoning people to death? do you treat "your" women like items? if not then you must have poor biblical morals fred and that wuold be a good thing to any other LOGICAL human being with half a brain.
>>>"....as you clearly are stuck in your ways"
WOW ... Fred is on a message blog such as this and is firm in his views? Hippypoet, why the anger with Fred? He has calming represented his point and only crime is that it is not your view.... and your best closing is that you are upset that he will not bend or break?
If that were the truth how many on both the Faithful side of posters and the Atheist side of posters could wear the label ..."as you clearly are stuck in your ways"? Newsflash, most if not all of us on both sides have heard all of the reasoning and are " stuck in our ways".
No, he is a liar because he will intentionally misrepresent views, use logical fallacies, and cherrypick responses to suit what he can twist into something that looks like an answer. I don't really care whether you think it's because he challenged me, even though I have debates with my friends all the time and I don't call them liars. I will give fred respect when he earns it through actual honest debate, instead of what he has been doing.
@Mark- Hawaii tends to do this when he doesn't like the answers that are given. He has a list of responses just ready to go and hates it when people do things he isn't ready for.
Strange that while Mark and Entil'za will say these things, they don't actually attempt to refute what I'm saying.
Prayer changes water into wine
You use the unicorn as an example yet you apply different standards of proof. If 92 billion people over the course of humanity saw a unicorn or 4 billion people alive today saw a unicorn are unicorns self-evident or do we need to catch one?
Good grief, fred, are you imbibing some of that hooch?
hawaiiguest- "Strange that while Mark and Entil'za will say these things, they don't actually attempt to refute what I'm saying."
You are giving an opinion that someone is not being honest. I disagree..that's my opinion. What more did you require?
>>>”..responses to suit what he can twist into something that looks like an answer.”
Hawaii, welcome to the Belief Blog and having confrontational dialouge with another that does not share your views. Trust in that those on the other side are saying the same thing about your arguments. Is this you and Hippypoets first day on the Blog?
>>>”and I don't call them liars. “
Yeah, they have had many news articles around the web about how folks feel free enough to say things to a stranger that they would not say to a friend, spouse, boss or co-worker. You have to live with your friends and friendship is worth more than trying to score a few “gotcha” debates on a internet blog. Maybe you should thank Fred because you probably have been holding that vitriol deep inside and needed someone to help you let it out. Now you can go back to your Faithful/Religious friends and continue the relationship because you were able to say to Fred what you could not say to them. 🙂
mark – i would not say i am stuck in my ways like that of fred – i am willing to learn and to be wrong. fred believes god has the answers and that is that. as far as my anger towards him – there is none. just tired of fred and the answers or lack of he gives yet still believes he is having a conversation. i would have a better back and forth that would yield better results with my daughter and or son. and to finish this off... i would hope that any logic based mind would not be "stuck in ones way" ....but that is a hope after all.
You do not only disagree, you make specific claims about me, which may or may not be a red herring, and do not address any of the actual points I bring up in my post. Essentially, it makes you look like kind of pathetic.
I will call out friends if they attempt the same kind of crap fred does. I do not pull punches because I know the person.
“having biblical morals is not something to be proud of”
=>I assume you do not have a problem with biblical morals as lived out by Christ. Thomas Jefferson thought them worthy 256 years ago and wrote a book on it. You want me to go back to a people, time and place 3,400 years ago and defend the chosen ones? Not necessary. Jesus did a complete job yanking the rug out from under their silly and unjust rules and ways. No sense going back beyond the highest moral person known to mankind to lay a foundation. I cannot think of anyone who made a greater impact on humanity.
@Hawaii- I merely pointed out a fact that you tend to get upset when your arguments do not go by a set plan. When people come up with a new angle on a topic you do not like, you call it dishonest. That was the purpose of my initial comment and that was all I intended to be.
If you have questions you would like answered...ask away and maybe I'll answer them.
mark – that last comment you made was rather rude and a major a$$ertion. i speak my mind to all no matter their personal standings with me or my family. and i think i made that statment before. someone i believe said i require tact or i come off as an @hole – i disagree and thats my right. now that you have made yourself appear above the rest of us little unsult slinging internet bashers – what of you who comments on a blog without answering the question but rather post to only bash the posters who did answer the question asked? that is a very petty stand point from my perspective! and i don't mean to insult but rather point out the obvious and so i view it as not an insult but a gift of truth.
Hawaii and HippyPoet. The responses that you two carried towards Fred caused him to disagree, that is all. He calmly stated his points and the only way that Fred's points could skip from being his personally held opinion to that of being a lie is if the person doing the determining thought that their point was the absolute truth. Basically, do you feel it is lie that his opinion challenges your opinion?
Let's try to recap.
4:38 Hippypoet gave her opinion and view and how she felt it was better.
4:51 Hippy felt Fred was absurd in his opinions of the founding fathers.
5:23 Hawaii jumped in. Didn't want to challenge Fred directly but to tell everyone to close their ears to his opinions.
Ten minutes later Hippy declared she was done with Fred because she felt his opinions lacked merit … until eight minutes later when she decided that wasn't done with Fred.
Come on you two, Fred wound yall up and off yall went.
>>>”I would have a better back and forth that would yield better results with my daughter and or son.”
Yeah, most parents have the luxury that their children will “pull punches” when speaking to them.
“they produce absurd "evidence" to back up their absurd beliefs”
=>Stephen Hawking has a problem with God and a major distain for anyone that would suggest a personal God. In response to new evidence of super gravity and dark energy M theory was taken to a new level avoiding mounting evidence that a supernatural causation is a mathematical necessity. That defense of atheism today rests on multiverse theory. Absurd theory produced to back up his absurd belief (no God necessary).
Like I said both sides do it.
>>>”what of you who comments on a blog without answering the question but rather post to only bash the posters who did answer the question asked? “
HippyPoet. I do not think myself above the rest who are of both sides of the Faith debate. I do admit I feel above those of the extremist nature on both sides because it is easy to just hate. It takes strength to sit down and work out tolerance and to hope for a day of co-existence. See, I grew up reading about Martin Luther King and A.Phillip Randolph. A Christan and a Atheist. I come to the Belief blog a year before Christopher Hitchens passes away and read articles of his friendship with a Christian who would later eulogize his passing. Now I compare it to folks like, you, Hawaii and ones on our side such as HeavenSent and I know that there is more to dialogue than just throwing out insults and demonizing.
Maybe it is the “H” part … HeavenSent, HippyPoet, HawaiiGuest. 🙂
All I like to do some times, is show how similar the two extremes really are. Maybe that is why I choose to comment because Fred's response was a response that illustrates this. Even down to their word usage. Screaming at each other does not work but to cause folks on both sides to “dig in” more. So, there has to be another way Hippy.
why must i be a girl? i am a dude! anyway, whats your other way? i have a few ideas.
Here's the thing, cherrypicking from a response, and then going off on a tangent that, if looked at, is irrelevant to the actual discussion, and is laced with assertions, is a dishonest tactic that fred uses quite effectively. Stick around for a few months, and really really read and think about freds responses and how it would actually apply to the conversation, and you'll see what I mean.
@fred:”You likewise lack evidence to support an atheist position.”
No there is lots of evidence to support the atheist position for example Christians say that god answers prayers and sometimes miraculously cures the sick yet he has never miraculously regrown an amputated limb. Hating amputees is just another of god’s mysterious ways? Doesn’t fit very well with the numerous promises in the bible that god will grant prayers?
I think more important is that atheism does not make a positive claim, and as such does not require evidence.
>>>”...whats your other way? i have a few ideas.”
First, my aplogies. I thought from previous exchanges you stated that you were a female. My fault. Ok, well the other way to dialogue. I thought that it was a detailed speech by Jon Stewart but the quote I keep finding when I google is:
“I disagree with you but I am pretty sure you are not Hitler.”
A few post ago, a troll came in and stated that Atheist are agents of satan. This is wrong and so is the hatred coming from the extreme flanks of the issue of Faith and Non-Faith. The other way is to come to a place like this blog and find ..in the middle of all of the screaming and shouting... someone on the other side you can talk to. Waste of energy coming to this forum and just yelling at the other side because it does nothing but, some fear if they unclench their fist for a second or a moment that the other side will exploit it as a point of weakness in their arguments. These same arguments appear to be so much at the foundation of those of us who visit these Blogs that to unclench would be the same as to shake their foundations. Some how Martin Luther King and Christopher Hitchens were able to hold their own beliefs but at the same time not be so abrasive to the other side, especially ones that they might call friends. If they can do it then there is a another way. Or is it a future of more of this conflict.
I believe there is a way forward and it does not come when my enemy is extinguished. It comes from opening the door that there are others on the other side whose only difference is that on this subject they believe differently that you. With that we move forward and it all begins when we decide.
Again sorry for thinking you were a girl.
“ he has never miraculously regrown an amputated limb”
=>Prayer is communion with God which for the Christian involves the Holy Spirit today. Gods plan and purpose is not to perform miracles (although they do happen) which were primarily signs in the days of Jesus. Gods plan and purpose is to bring people into saving grace in Christ. Why one may lose a leg is a different question than does God answer prayer. The prayer of a humble man is answered as it is given by the Holy Spirit. This response is not subject to a double blind study.
mark – i don't think i ever actually stated i was either or – male or female. i don't think it matters eitherway. on the topic of having a proper discussion with one on one side of the stance and one on the other – as much as i would like it to happen i find that those that believe, truly believe, take extreme insult to the statement "god does not exist" or the equally powerful " i don't believe in god" thou they have two very different meanings they hit the same way. they push forth the idea that god is nonexistent and therefore a waste of time to the believer. at this point the conversation tends to roll slightly down hill on a steady increase in the speed as time goes on. I would like nother more then to have a back and forth with a believer of any god(s) and really come to a conclusion. i have my doubts of this but i still have hopes – a faithful could say i have faith of its existence, just haven't had the pleasure yet. 🙂
>>>”mark – i don't think i ever actually stated i was either or – male or female.”
As Van-Pelt said her brother...”i ought slug you”. Yes, it does not matter to the basic debate but to politeness I address folks as such.
>>>”. I would like nother more then to have a back and forth with a believer of any god(s) and really come to a conclusion. i have my doubts of this but i still have hopes “
It can happen but each of us has to be brave enough to accept that the conclusion might come as either side not changing their views and the desire to be ok with that. I will put it this way, I have been blessed to meet a few really open Muslims in the last five years. The years after 9/11 I kept running into these wannabe tali-ban types that typified the image that the media puts out about Islam. Add on to my previous encounters with Black Panther Islam I soon I began to develop a closed ear towards Islam. Then I met a Kurdish immigrant and discovered that there are differences but as always it is the squeakiest wheel that gets the grease with media coverage of Islam. I did not covert to Islam but I found a friend in the Islamic Faith.
Then I come here to the Belief Blog, with my per-ordained “Hate Atheist” marching orders and I went to war. Some where in my first few months I opened my ears and heard(read) the voices of differences in Atheism. Voices that were drowned out by the standard “You Hate me and I hate you” comments. In that I found hope. I found a change in myself. ...(I will spare yall the Michael Jackson “Man in the Mirror” youtube video clip)
The hope that there is another way and the ones that most want to keep us from moving towards it are ones in our own camps. It has been this way through out history and into current times. Groups such as the Klan killed many whites just because they were supportive of Blacks. German Concentration camps were not only filled with Jews but with Germans that might have helped Jews. Look at the latest people to get thrown out of office. It is not always a Republican over a Democrat .. it is a more Right Wing Republican throwing out a sitting Republican that dared to cross the great divide.
I am going to bounce for a few hours cause I have been known to blow an entire day off on this crazy Belief Blog. Just continue to hold out hope HippyPoet... male or female I'll hold yah hand and we can hope together....
… then again I will need both hands to pray 😀