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 A billboard criticizing Christianity is going up in Charlotte, North Carolina, host city of the upcoming Democratic National Convention.
August 13th, 2012
10:03 AM ET
First on CNN: Atheist group targets presidential candidates' faith with billboardsBy Dan Merica, CNN Washington (CNN) - A prominent atheist group is using next month's Democratic National Convention to take aim at the presidential candidates' religion, putting up billboards targeting Mormonism and Christianity in Charlotte, North Carolina. “Our political system is rife with religion and it depends too much on religion and not enough on substance," said David Silverman, president of American Atheists, sponsor of the ads. "Religion is silly and religion has components that are inherently divisive. … There is no place for any of that in the political system,” he said. The billboards go up Monday in Charlotte and will stay up for a month at a cost of roughly $15,000. The Democratic convention runs September 3-6. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories The billboard targeting Christianity features an image of Jesus Christ on toast and this description of the faith: "Sadistic God; Useless Savior, 30,000+ Versions of ‘Truth,’ Promotes Hates, Calls it ‘Love.’ ”
The billboard targeting Mormonism lambastes - and, Mormons would say, distorts - specific Mormon doctrines: "God is a Space Alien, Baptizes Dead People, Big Money, Big Bigotry.” The Mormon billboard features a man in white underwear, a reference to special Mormon garments. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter Both billboards feature the line "Atheism: Simply Reasonable." American Atheists had wanted to put the anti-Mormon billboard in Tampa, Florida, to coincide with the Republican National Convention there later this month. Presumptive GOP nominee Mitt Romney is a Mormon. When no billboard company in the city would lease the group space for such a sign, Silverman said the organization decided to focus solely on the Democrats in Charlotte. “Presidential conventions are for ideas, not ideology - platforms, not platitudes," Silverman said. "If a person believes stupid things, we have every right to question his or her judgment, and that directly impacts how the nonreligious voter votes.” CNN Belief Blog: Atheist leader hopes to mobilize closeted nonbelievers Some religious leaders said the billboards showed a misunderstanding of how faith works. "That billboard makes the most common high-school error when it comes to atheism," wrote the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author, in an e-mail to CNN. "It's not arguing against the existence of God, but against religion. The American Atheists need to go back to school on this one." Martin also questioned the language used on the billboard: "And as for 'promoting hate' they're doing a bang-up job themselves with that billboard." Terryl Givens, a Mormon professor at the University of Richmond, called American Atheists "petty and vindictive." “If this example of adolescent silliness is what atheists mean by being reasonable, then neither Mormons nor other Christians have much to worry about," he said of the billboards. "When atheists organize to serve the poor and needy of the world, they will be taken more seriously." CNN Belief Blog: Unbelieving preachers 'come out' as atheists It's not the first time the American Atheists group has released in-your-face billboards. Earlier this year, the group put up two billboards in heavily Muslim and Jewish enclaves in New Jersey and New York bearing messages in Arabic and Hebrew. “You know it’s a myth … and you have a choice,” the billboards said. At the time, Silverman said the signs were intended to reach atheists in Muslim and Jewish areas who may feel isolated because they are surrounded by believers. In addition to the billboards, Silverman said his group plans to stage protests at both conventions. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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ligaya –
I know you're still here. Do you believe in hell?
Believing and Truth are not the same thing. When you believe in spite of the evidence to the contrary, it just makes you confident and wrong. This closed mindedness prevents you from learning the real Truth. If you do not allow yourself to learn Truth then you are swimming upstream against the current of reality and make your life harder than it has to be. Often it is not you that pays the most for your beliefs but those closest to you. Many times the people that realize you are wrong and do not want you ruling their life and making it worse. I wonder how many families have been destroyed due to sons and daughters being shunned out of intolerance?
Only for the new members of this blog:
A one-fits-all billboard:
• There was probably no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• There was probably no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
Added details available upon written request.
(see also p. 40)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AeUVPAyntCY
Think famous Alfred Hitchco.ck films.
I like the other Simpson's Ayn Rand video; the one where Lisa calls The Fountainhead the bible of "Right Wing Losers." Just as not all Christians agree on everything outside of Jesus being divine, not all atheists agree either on everything outside of gods not being real.
When I was a lad, I was told of an elegant little experiment that disproved the notion of spontaneous generation. Ever since then, science has been teaching me that spontaneous generation is a fact. Science has bestowed it with a new name to give it the cloak of respectability: abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is simply spontaneous generation with a product slightly less majestic than a maggot.
How creative.
When I read "bestowed it with a new name to give it the cloak of respectability" I thought you must be referring to "Intelligent Design".
No, we don't know exactly how life on earth began. We just don't know yet. We're working on it. This is a perfectly acceptable approach. This in no way suggests a sky fairy did it. And given the blatant inaccuracies in the bible when it comes to the realm of science, the fact that you think your answers lie in that book speaks volumes about your intellect.
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
"And the Flying Spaghetti monster guided the believers to the only path to salvation by gesturing with a noodly appendage."
Ramen.
I also like this passage from Matt 22.
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
I like those passages from science and medicine:
Believing that you are being watched by someone or something that is not there is a mental disorder.
Some people call it conscience.
DJ –
If you need to feel like someone is watching you in order to behave like a decent human being you are probably a horrible person.
Dangerous Jesus
Some people call it conscience.
And I would bet my last penny that it would be the delusional person that is being diagnosed with the mental disorder.
@Vocal Atheist
And they call it Schizophrenia. Not too long ago, we gave them ECT.
By the way, I forgot which God we were talking about, which one is it?
The Non-existent one.......
Sorry, that didn't help did it....
There's more than one?
Wait, wut?
The only one you rail against.. the God of Abraham..
If you believe God isnt real, why do you hate Him so much?
Nah, it's not an imaginary being I can't stand.
it's you, Chard.
Chad –
Why do you hate leprechauns so much? You surely must hate them to deny their existence.
@Chad
"The only one you rail against.. the God of Abraham..
If you believe God isnt real, why do you hate Him so much?"
First off, I don't have a belief in a God, I am absent of a belief. Secondly, from what I have read there are literally hundreds of Gods. Thirdly, I never stated I hated any Gods. How could I say I hated something that doesn't exist?
Chad
If the Hindus were out in the same force as the Christians, telling everyone how their failure to manage their karma is ruining the country and frightening little children everywhere with stories of how non-believers get reincarnated into roaches or something, then more people would be criticizing their gods as well, but they're sensible enough to keep their supernatural beliefs to themselves, so we don't have to.
Chad: We can't hate something in which we do not believe. Those who purport to follow "him", though, are (in some cases) deserving of ridicule. This is particularly when they use "him" to deny others' CIVIL RIGHTS.
Chad
People do a lot of harmful things based on beliefs that are nothing more than superst.ition, as far as we can tell. You don't have to believe that grinding up rhino horns actually works as a folk medicine in order to abhor the killing of these animals just to get it, or to criticize those who purchase it. You seem to feel that we atheists are singling you Christians out, but we criticize the belief in any gods and most of us would extend that to a criticism of all superst.ition. Your's just happens to be the most popular superst.ition in our society, that's all.
@Chad
The only one you rail against.. the God of Abraham..
That’s Allah right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6g2GuTAIep8
She's not just Hot !!! Her spirit is beautiful, too.
Does it get anymore absurd than evangelical atheism? In the godless world, it doesn't matter if someone is theist, atheist, or cow worshipper. Everyone's existence is equally meaningless and all will soon be dead. Your beliefs matter not.
Another idiot that knows nothing of what he says.
If there is no god, your life is meaningless. Sorry you had to find out this way.
The meaning of my life is not based on a fairy tale. I think it is sad you require one to be fulfilled.
"If there is no god, your life is meaningless."
What a sorry azz brain you're parents whipped-up.
No Truth...
The idea that your life has any meaning at all is the fairy tale. Did someone sprinkle magic pixie dust on you that gives your life meaning? If atheism is true, then Dawkins is right: we are all merely machines for propagating dna. So save me all the emotional "i find meaning in the joy of others blah blah blah" bullshlt.
“Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal” (Sartre)
A famous Atheist Philosopher agrees with you, dog.
You fvcked up, Doogie. Nietzsche beat you to it, but he got it right. "Without music, life would be a mistake."
No need for a god, dumbazz.
And yet we can still attribute an arbitrary value on our own lives. The good thing about being self aware.
Did God tell you your life is meaningful, Dog? That seems cruel.
Doggie? I find joy in irritating the fvcking p!ss out of morons like you.
Other? You rock.
“The thought of suicide is a powerful solace: by means of it one gets through many a bad night.” (Nietzsche)
A nice example of Atheistic optimism.
Dog,
You don't get to judge what makes my life meaningful, only I can do that. Just as you are the only one that can decide if yours is meaningful, and you admitted you need a myth to define it, like I said, sad...
Hmm. Did he kill himself? Maybe if he'd known you...
Doogie, is your delusional belief the only source of meaning in your life?
Sad.
Fried Rich
Let's all get down on our knees and pray. Theist nonsense.
That's not "Rich", dear. It's "Dick".
"Everyone's existence is equally meaningless"
Or equally meaningful
Fried Rich; No, that is an example of Neitche, not atheists in general.
Some famous politically active Atheists of the 20th century:
Joseph Stalin
Pol Pot
Mao Zedong
Kim Jong Il
Than Shwe
Vladmir Lenin
Che Guevera
Fidel Castro
Nicolae Ceausescu
Slobodan Milosevic
Benito Mussolini
And, of couse, Adolph Hitler and the Nazi's simply used religion as a tool to inst.itute National Socialism. They were actually Nietzschean inspired Atheist monsters cloaked in the trappings of belief.
Atheism: Simply Reasonable
Don't you wish you could vote for an Atheist this year?
Don't you wish you could grow a brain and actually say something meaningful tonight?
False correlation. Also blatantly innaccurate.
Oh, Che please! Brilliant, mercurial, attractive, socially conscious – what do you have going for you Dennis?
Some non-famous fu*cking idiot
Dennis Did Erode
Dennis, you may have accomplished a real milestone! You make even truth be told look like a beacon of intelligence.
So how come there are so many immoral theists?
Actually Hitler was a Christian. He cited strong moral conviction granted to him by his religion. Stalin, Kim Jong Ill, and Mao Zedong are also not exactly atheists as they formed a religion of personality around themselves, There is strong evidence Che Guevera went to church like everyone else in Argentina and never denounced his Christianity, Benito Mussolini was a devout Catholic... I could go through the rest of your list, but in writing this, I did more work then you ever did.
You might want to look up "personality cult" and see how this term relates to all of these figures as well as the brutal Chinese and Roman Emperors.
@Dennis Did Erode
Why didn't God stop these evil men?
I can't see trusting a God that would stand by and let these evil men do what they did.
hitler was an atheist
tbt is a troll
truth be told
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
He was a Christian, and a creationist.
Just fpr laughs. Just want to share a joke.
One time an atheist biology professor asked a Catholic student this question.
teacher; Do you believe in God?
students; Yes I do believe in God.
teacher. Can you see , feel, taste and touch your God?
student. Actually no but catholic cathechism taught us that God is revealed in His creation.
teacher, If you cant see, touch, smell or hear your God then there is no God.
student: Do you have a brain?
teacher (angrily) Ofcourse I have.
student; Can you see,your brain?
teacher; In x – ray
student: Can you see, feel, touch, smell hear your brain?
teacher: No, and who can?
student; Then you have no brain.
Joke only. Peace brothers. No offense meant.
Your act sucks and so do you.
No laughs here, sorry. The Catholic Church has covered-up the ruination of families and small children. Ra ping both, parents and 2 year old girls.
Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?
Here's my joke:
A Catholic priest walks into a preschool. He then ra.pes all the children because that's what Jesus told him to do.
I still carry a piece of lead from a pencil a nun plunged into my chest, pretty funny, huh?
Yeah, Catholics seem to have this weird predilection towards plunging things into innocent children.
Priest and a Rabbi are on a plane. The pilot comes on the intercom and says that the plane is going to crash. The Rabbi grabs the last parachute and heads for the door. The priest says, "what about all the children?" The Rabbi says "screw the children", The priest replies "do you think there is enough time?".
It's actually sad that so many Christians on this blog will read that joke and take it as a serious argument against atheism.
Yes, But you can definitely see my brain when they cut my skull open after I die. Why dont you send me ur address and I will make sure they send it to you in a jar for keeps?
Good evening folks. Everyone is cordially invited to visit – thestarofkaduri.com
No one cares.
I don't mind Atheists practicing their non-belief. After all everyone is ent-itled to their own opinion. I simply wish that Atheists would stop parading themselves as "intellectually superior," etc. It just makes them sound as fanatical as any other zealot. It's hard to take such people seriously in my opinion.
Yep. It's much more logical to believe in unicorns and talking animals and Noah's Ark.
I sure hope that the majority of we atheists don't give you that opinion of us.
Actually on the contrary. I have several atheist friends who are good honest people. And we often have respectful and thought-provoking conversations. I believe the fanatics are in the minority, and I'm sorry for that. I hope, likewise, that you don't judge all Theists by obnoxious ones.
"I don't mind Atheists practicing their non-belief."
How does one practice non-belief? Just curious. Are we practicing to be non-believers or are we practicing non-believers? Either way I don't see how one could practice something they don't believe in for there is nothing to believe.
@VocalAtheist That, my friend, is called nit-picking. Do you honestly not know what I meant?
sam, I think that in real life most atheists would be much friendlier than they are in anonymity on the interwebs, and the same is true, I'm sure of most religious fanatics. But I think that it's good that we can dual our ideas here without risking valuable opportunities of good friendships like we would/do in real life–were we to talk about such matters deeply. Not everyone can look can stare cold logic in the face and understand that there's no good reason to believe in god. Not everyone can open up their mind to "spiritual" experiences, either. Many bitter atheists (for being raised christian or whatever) are wrongly so; they should be thankful for what good they can derive from it and move on.
I would much rather my friends and other christians make good decisions at home and in the political arena and academics than "deconvert." I used to want christians to leave their religion, but now I just want them to think critically before voting weird because of something they think their god wants.
" I simply wish that Atheists would stop parading themselves as "intellectually superior," etc."
Is it because we think and question and not accept the inhumanity of a God and religion? Is it because the religious don't have any answers that make any sense? Is it because we place you in an uncomfortable position when faced with the truth? If that's parading as intellectually superior then you have a pretty serious self-esteem complex.
I practice my nonbelief by not going to church and not putting a jesus fish sticker on my car and sometimes I get in the mood for Black Sabbath. But I don't have a schedule or anything... except the not going to church thing-I have hundreds of those scheduled for every day, I guess.
@Moby Thank you. And I agree completely, people should take time to truly think important decisions through.
@Vocal — I really am sorry if I offended you. As to your comments: I HAVE thought through both sides of the arguments. Quite a lot actually. I find the postulation of a Supreme Intelligence to be not only quite logically possible, but also find my own subjective experiences and intuitions to resonate with that belief.
Read the book, coming to your supermarket checkout line real soon, The Practical Nonbeliever.
Easy lessons on how to ignore distracting unsupportable ideas from oddly persuasive people
Encouragement toward leading a productive life contributing to the well-being of your family and society
Pointers on developing curiosity and critical thinking for fun, self-development, and attracting the appropriate sex
And much more...
When you allow the likes of HS, TBT, fred, and others to yap on in their incessant idiocy without stepping in to put them in their places, you can hardly blame those of us who don't share your belief to wait for you to pipe up and say something intelligent.
Sam, trust me, I'm not easily offended. Frustrated? That's a different story. As far as being logical, it is good to see at least you have considered the possibility of the validity. The intuitions and subjective experiences is another matter. Could intuitions and subjective experiences just be what they are? Why does there have to be anything but the intuition and the experiences? Why do you associate them with a supreme intelligence?
samstubbs –
If you truly care about brotherhood amongst those with different beliefs, maybe you could start by eroding the support in your faith community for legislating your religious beliefs. Stop voting for candidates who advocate forcing your religious-inspired policies on everyone. That would be a start. I think jesus would support your taking that first step.
samstubbs
I would wish that fewer Christians would parade themselves as "morally superior" and, in case you haven't noticed, there are a mighty lot more of those zealots out there, and they've made it clear that they want to dictate which laws we all should live under.
My favourites among the atheists who were converted to Christianity are Sally Read and Leah Libresco.
Who are they? Neighbors of yours?
ligaya
What's your point?
My favorite that walked, no, Ran away from christianity is Anne Rice
"It's simply impossible for me to 'belong' to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I've tried."
TR6
I thought Rice turned Catholic again to market her "Christ" series of books?
Lists of converts from atheism to Christianity. these are just the famous people like intelelctuals, etc. There are still hundreds of thousand less popular atheists who are converted to christianity every year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_atheism
ligaya –
No one cares. Your (wikipedia referenced) post establishes nothing. If you want converts, then provide me with a reason to believe what you believe. I will listed with an open mind, and if your argument passes my rational assessment I may change my beliefs. Let's hear it.
Gotta tell you, I'm right with manbearpig on this. Give me something to work with that doesn't involve the bible and you'll have my attention.
exlong horn
manbearpig
What about a joke? I hope I will not offend you nor anyone here with this joke, after all its just a joke.
One time an atheist biology professor asked a Catholic syudent this question.
teacher; Do you believe in God?
students; Yes I do believe in God.
teacher. Can you see , feel, taste and touch your God?
student. Actually no but catholic cathechism taught us that God is revealed in His creation.
teacher, If you cant see, touch, smell or hear your God then there is no God.
student: Do you have a brain?
teacher (angrily) Ofcourse I have.
student; Can you see,your brain?
teacher; In x – ray
student: Can you see, feel, touch, smell hear your brain?
teacher: No, and who can?
student; Then you have no brain.
Joke only.
Don't quit your day job, Shecky.
ligaya –
Actually, your "joke" is a horrible misrespresentation of atheism. Is it possible that you do not truly understand our position? You seem to think we don't believe as you do because we don't know something you do. Could it be that you don't understand atheism?
Let me ask you something ligaya – do you believe in hell?
ligaya,
Funny. i do get the point. Of course I can take a CAT or PET scan, using different brands and types of scanner, at different locations, and all will give a very similar result, indicating that I do in fact have a brain, but I suppose that's kind of spoiling the joke.
@ligaya
Do you know why zombies past atheists?
@ligaya
Do you know why zombies will past atheists?
@ligaya
It must be the reason why will surely past atheists.
ligaya
"There are still hundreds of thousand less popular atheists who are converted to christianity every year."
Yup, indoctrinating your children will do that.
The billborad that syas atheism is reasonable is unreasonable. How can an atheist explain your "30,000+versions of truth?" It doesnt mean that if there are 30,000 versions there is no real one original truth. That's why they are called versions. Its like atheists saying I dont believe in Elvis Presley because there are 30,000+ versions of Elvis Presley. the Elvis versions and impersonators. But it doesnt mean that there are multiple Elvises it doent mean that there is no original real Elvis Presley. You're atheism is unreasonable.Atheists are so confused with all those versions the only thing you need to do, may I respectfully suggest is to find and search the real one truth amidst the versions. Thank you and may you be guided in your real search and welcome home.
Great example...please identify the one correct version of the bible so I can know which ones are impostors, and therefore not worth reading.
The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal an almost complete Old Testament dating to 200 B.C. that is accurate to and confirms the Holy Scriptures we have today. Read the proven word of God, the Holy Bible.
exlonghorn, a Chinese philosopher once said, a thousand mile journey begins with a single step. Your inquiry I honestly believe is your single step to a thousand mile journey of yours. Good luck and I will pray for you that you may find the truth you are seeking. I hope I didnt offend you by saying a prayer for you. 🙂
ligaya – Let me guess: the "truth" that you believe (probably because your parents believed it and brainwashed you at a young age – most religious people share their parents' beliefs) is the "one truth", right? Guess what – everyone who holds to one of the other 29,999 versions of "truth" thinks they're right too. It is merely humorous to point out that there are 30,000 versions of the "one truth".
ligaya –
You completely avoided supporting your belief when asked by exlonghorn to elaborate. Why should anyone listen to you?
@TBT,
Okay, a few questions:
1) Which VERSION of the bible?
2) Aren't the Dead Sea Scrolls just another physical version, like the Gutenberg bible? How does that lend any more fact to what was written? By your logic, 2,000 years from now someone might stumble across my copy of Frosty the Snowman and the very fact that the book is old and exists will somehow make the story and its characters real. Do you get how your logic doesn't hold up?
Read the original scrolls in the original language.
exlonghorn –
In answer to your last question: No. No, he does not.
I wouldn't bother with tbt. I mean yeah, he's funny and all, but he's really not one for rational discourse. I suspect this mostly due to the fact that he's retarded.
Ligaya,
Perhaps, but I am a terminally logical person. As such, I consider two possible paths...the path of the Atheist and the path of the theist. The Atheist doesn't presume to have all the answers, but seeks to continuously improve as you suggest...a journey of a lifetime. The theist presumes to have the answers, and seeks no greater understanding. Further, the theist judges others...because they have the wrong faith, because they have no faith, or because seemingly non-harmful behaviors do not meet arbitrary criteria. I'm having a tough time with these things. Atheism seems like the better alternative.
@TBT,
Let's presume that I'm not going to go hunting for the original scrolls and I really don't have an interest or time to learn the several languages in which they were written. As far as I can tell, a bible is a bible...it's subject to the same flaws and shortcomings as any other version. Why is this any different?
Of course the Atheists would not accept the true scriptures be it the bible or any other work which the God of all creation gave to mankind mainly because they don't understand the principle of revelation. The only way to understand the spiritual principle is to study the bible and pray for the spirit of revelation which is the only power that can reveal the truth of all things to those who ask seek & knock as we are able to read in 2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were cmoved by the Holy Ghost.
So you have to want to believe to be able to believe. Yea there's no way that could lead to confirmatory bias or circular reasoning.
/sarcasm
I don't know why, Grinun, but I just automatically read that in my head in the voice of a Stepford Wife.
exlonghorn and manbearpig, I understand and I honestly must admit that i don't have all the answers because I am not an expert. I am just a simple beleiver. I am just lilke a little girl sleeping in my father's lap while in an air travel, totally trusting him without questions. But I have peace because I know my father will take care of me.That's called faith. If I have all the answers its not faith anymore. That's why maybe and maybe you could direct all your questions to experts and there is no judgemental answers on this forum. They respect everyone who are genuinely seeking and searching and travelling to search the truth. I have suggested this to my atheists and non-Christian friends and they found whta they are looking for. I will not coerce. you to visit the website but I am just saying. You might find all the answeers there. http:// forums.catholic.com. Good luck to you guys and may you find what you are looking for. exlonghorn I undertsand your inclination. peace.
ligaya –
Why are you trying to convert people if you can't even explain why you believe what you believe? If you want to change someone's mind, any adult knows you need to provide them with a reason for doing so. Convince me. You come here telling me that you're right and I'm wrong, yet you can't tell me why. Why should anyone listen to you?
ligaya –
Furthermore, I'm as.suming your organization is the Catholic church, which for at least decades (probably centuries) has been a haven for pedophiles and has covered up for the systemic se.xual abuse of children. I will never be a part of an organization with values like that.
I guess that's the whole crux of the problem...it all starts with faith. Unfortunately, I'm a skeptic about everything. I question everything. I don't buy a vacuum cleaner without researching it thoroughly. And I never take info from just one source. The makers always claim theirs is the best, and that it does all this wonderful stuff. Understand that this is how I view religion. I am looking for those corroborating sources. I'm seeking the cause-effect logic. I want the faith and the science to line up. it just isn't happening for me.
wzlonghorn
what a coincidence because while i was preparing ,eals for my family I was thinking of the cause and effetct theory and one I can recall was that of Saint Thomas Aquinas. Search for it. Good luck. He can explain it to you very well than I do. 🙂
Yum, I love me some of those tasty eals!
Yup. Them's eals is good with grits!
Seriously – the five "proofs"?!?!?! That's your convincing argument? Those have been picked to pieces by number different people over the years.
ligaya –
Then what caused god?
manbearpig
ligaya –
Then what caused god?
eals and grits.
And bacon.
Brother Lester is comin on over and he's a bringin some collards maw maw put-up last fall. Should we pray now?
Let me guess: "He always was and always will be. He's the alpha and the omega blah bla blah..."
Yet this explanation doesn't satisfy you when applied to the universe?
ligaya,
I looked up Saint Thomas Aquinas to get a refresher. So, he basically says there are five proofs for the existence of God.
1) The way of motion. Basically a corollary to Newtons first law of motion. Doesn't seem to provide new evidence, but says that SOMETHING had to set the universe in motion. Atheists will say it was the big bang, but neither theists nor atheists can tell us what caused the big bang. Theists will take the leap of faith to say it's god. Atheists will say we are still learning our way to the answers.
2) The way of causation. This is largely a restatement of point 1.
3) The way of contingency. Again this is a slightly different way of restating point 1. Everything has to come from something, and so there must be a FIRST something. Theists will say this first something is god. Atheists will say we don't know, but we are learning our way towards the answers.
4) The way of goodness. Sorry, but this one seems silly to me.
5) The way of design. This one has repeatedly been proven false as science has advanced.
So, I gave this an honest look. The philosophical points are certainly interesting, particularly points 1-3. However, the practical application is unclear. So let's assume there's some kind of supreme being. WHO'S supreme being is the right one? Mormon's? Christians? Muslims? Buddhists? According to most faiths, if I pick wrong I'm going to be in a heap of trouble. I can't see a reasonable way to resolve that, so why declare faith in the first place?
"Theists will say this first something is god. "
And I would ask; What created your God?
More importantly, who's to say that "god" did it? All Aquinas' "proofs" are is a way of saying "Well, I don't know how exactly all this came to be, so I'm proposing a sky fairy did it! Oh, and also here are some more fallacies thrown in to boot...believe what I say, ok?"
the Codex Sinaiticus has about 25,000 "corrections" in it, plus extra books, and it's regarded as the world's oldest "Bible". The bible version without the Apocrypha that American protestants are familiar with is relatively new.
exlonghorn
Take a look at the brain "joke" ligaya posted above and you'll see what actually passes as sound Christian apologetics these days. String words together in a clever way and it's assumed that most people will be impressed enough to miss the point that these arguments don't actually make any sense, or simply aren't at all valid. They end up "proving" God as much as the editorial "Yes, Virginia, There Is A Santa Claus" proves that Kris Kringle is the one who actually delivers presents on Christmas.
Every religion has its stories. Almost all religions have stories explaining where the universe came from and what humanity’s part in it is. Smart calls this Narrative.Narrative is a particularly important aspect of western Atheism. As the prominent Atheist Richard Dawkins said, referring to Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution:
“Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.
Evolution is an explanation of where everything came from: the cosmos (came out of nothing at the big bang—nothing exploded and became everything); humans evolved from non-human creatures, hence humanity’s place in the cosmos is being just another species of animal. Some have gone so far as to say that humanity is a parasite on earth, and advocate killing up to 90% of humanity.8 There are some who attempt to combine belief in God with belief in evolution, not realizing the foundational nature of evolution’s connection to Atheism.9 The testimony of those who after learning about evolution in “science” reject Christianity should alert church leaders to the incompatibility between evolution and the Gospel.
Bob, you claim "Evolution is an explanation of where everything came from:"
Explain where life came from? or could you provide some proof of Abiogenesis?
Leo –
When trying to explain something you don't understand, "Magic did it!" is not an acceptable explanation.
@Leo
Abiogenesis and evolution deal with two completely different things, and you are merely attempting to switch the conversation to place where the gap for your god to squeeze into is bigger.
Abiogenesis is a politically correct way of saying Spontaneous Generation
@True Scotsman
What's your point?
"I can't understand this so God did it." This is a form of non sequitur, since the hand of God is posited with complete disregard to other possible explanations. In a nutshell, this is an argument from ignorance. But ignorance is never an argument for something. It just means we don't yet know the cause of something. Just because we don't know EXACTLY what happened at the moment of, and right before, the big bang doesn't mean the big bang theory is invalid. We are simply moving irrevocably closer to the REAL "truth", whatever that may be.
You mean science moves us closer to actually understanding truth? Huh – I always thought that a bunch of primitive men living in the Middle East 2000 years ago already got us as close as we're going to get.
@Bob,
you say: "There are some who attempt to combine belief in God with belief in evolution, not realizing the foundational nature of evolution’s connection to Atheism."
I don't see this. Darwin was no atheist. Doubtless he and many others are able to see it as the hand of God guiding creation. It seems a pragmatic synthesis of science and theism to me for those who don't want to let go of a belief in the supernatural.
@Bob
I'd say the same as GOPer, evolution is not dependent on being atheist.
True Scotsman said – "Abiogenesis is a politically correct way of saying Spontaneous Generation."
Similar but not the same. Spontaneous Generation traces its roots to pre-Aristotelian natural philosophers as an explanation for the appearance of organisms. As was commonly believed in Pasteur's time, it was thought that various smaller whole organisms self-assembled from inanimate materials. Pasteur showed this wasn't the case and subsequent research provided cell theory, developmental biology, molecular biology, etc. Abiogenesis does not presume a single assembly step from inanimate materials into cells. Given modern understanding of the fundamental molecular processes within cells and viruses, abiogenesis studies potential natural abiotic organic chemistry rxns which yield "pre-biomolecule" polymers (pre-RNA, PNA, TNA, GNA, proteinoids, natural micelles, etc). This work is far from conclusive but is very interesting in and of itself. Abiogenesis posits in very simplified terms: (1) natural formation of functional pre-biomolecule polymers, (2) a subset of these with catalytic and replicative properties, (3) co-adaptation/incorporation within some internal/external barrier, (4) continued replication, selection and adaptation, (5) ultimately arriving at something with the minimal properties of a modern cell (selective import/export of resource/waste molecules, sequential catalysis, etc, etc).
Prayer changes things ,
HeavenSent, does your Jesus wear a thong? You still haven't answered and we are waiting.
Commands from "god"
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately." Numbers 31:17
"utterly destroy all that they have, and don't spare them; but kill both man and woman, infant and nursing baby, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" 1sam15:3
What is your point? A people found guilty as charged and sentence appropriately. It is called justice get used to it and learn from their unrepentant sins.
An infant receiving the justice it deserves....just warms my heart....
@ One one
That's what will happen to each and every atheists one day. Just wait and see.
@jen
It should warn your heart, if those were found guilty in their sins and perished what chance have you?
Oh don't forget, that's supposed to be the ultimate "love".
Most abusive relationship ever is the one in the bible.
The judge does not pass sentence without reason and the authority to do so. Learn from the sins and errors of the transgressors for you also will be judged.
Hey Tube Top, if your god killed infants and fetuses, you don't have a chance.
You're dead meat.
I am already in possession of a full pardon that cannot be revoked. Sorry about you.
Apparently Christians believe slaughtering women and infants is ok. Where is the absolute morality in that, especially in light of though shalt not ki!! ?
@One one
They just enjoy double standards way to much.
You were lied to, creep. Mistakes were made. Your pardon has been revoked. Sorry you're you.
Judgement, sentence and execution are to be expected by law breakers. You may not like judgement but make no mistake about it you and your generations will also face the judge.
Tbt, im guessing you think you have a full pardon already because you are a lonely loser that doesn't have a single person on the planet who loves who or cares that you exist??? Because that's not how it works....
I did not grant the pardon to myself, He who is without sin gave it and He will never break His Holy promise.
Tube Top thinks he/she can go out and murder and its way to heaven is guaranteed.
@ truth be told, So god commands k!ll all the women except for the virgins. So, what justice is being served by that command?
Judgement is not murder.
@TBT,
you really are a smug little so and so.
Such arrogance is unbecoming and hardly trembling before the sight of God.
So you can go ra pe, murder and steal and you're still guaranteed your little cloud and lyre? Even if you can't figure out how to spell 'judgment' and you're too stupid to learn?
Yes God will protect his people, and will punish those that cause his people to go astray!
A clear warning for what you folks are doing today!!
Why is the Truth about judgement arrogant? It is the fate of all humanity once to die then the judgement.
I've always been halfway between thinking TBT is either a poe or just a religious sociopath.
And just what are "we" doing, you simple-minded dolt?
Whatever TubeTop is, it's ugly as sin.
@TBT, do you believe the Sikhs who were killed will be sent to hell by Jesus for not believing he is their savior ?
Definitely Hawaii guest. Either trolling or completely insane.....
Tbt, you have the most flexible definition of "truth" I've ever seen...
@truth be told
So EVERY Amalek participated in the ambushing if the Israelites? the babies? The sheep? The mothers? Where the heck is the justice in killing those who have not killed?
I understand the construction of a religion where the notion is that if you 'sin' you will meet punishment in your afterlife, unless you repent regularly, because, by definition there's inevitable 'sins' of omission. (I don't say I believe this, but I understand the purpose of such a construction to moderate behavior.)
But the mindset that you can opt in to be part of some 'elect', specifically this kind of crap: I am already in possession of a full pardon that cannot be revoked. Sorry about you.
is inconceiveable in any rational framework.
The "I can do whatever the fvck I want, because I have a 'get out of jail free card' but you must 'go directly to jail' and burn in the lake of sulphur for eternity" is astonishingly irrational, arrogant and judgmental.
I guess its merely the manifestation of the 'if we were horses, our gods would be horses' kind of egocentric philosophy, but that people would adhere to such an implausible notion makes my head spin.
The justice is in passing out the sentence and seeing it carried out, how guilty are you? Your sins will cost you your life, your family, your family name all property and possessions even your pets and anyone who remotely knows you. Whine about unfair , get used to it. Judgement awaits.
The pardon God offers is available to all, if you choose to ignore grace then accept justice.
GOP-you would have more success having a discussion with a cat. Because the cat is smarter and much more mentally stable.
Yes, my pets tremble before your judgment.
Bwaaa Haaa Haaa. Thanks TBT, you made me laugh. That's the best thing I've heard today.
Jen – yeah, but cats are nowhere near as funny. Except when they randomly freak out and race around.
Anyone who rejects the Salvation of God is subject to the justice of God. Gods justice in punishing lawbreakers has already been established in the original post. Understand and learn from the sins of those perished and recorded in the Holy Scriptures or face judgement alone and without excuse yourselves.
@TBT,
What gives YOU the right to say ANYTHING about how I will be judged? You are insignificant...a nothing. Your belief makes you no more important or special than the common atoms that make up your bodyl. Have a nice day. 🙂
Tbt, it's funny that all of these horrible punishments from your loving god are coming at some unforeseeable point in the future. The whole final judgment thing has been "prophesized" in a lot of ridiculous detail, yet no one seems to have locked down exactly when it will happen. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure christian "prophets" have been saying it's right around the corner for the last 2000 years.
@TBT,
Hey, while you're at it, show me the bible verse that encourages you to go around warning people of their impending postmortem doom. Honestly, I'm trying not to laugh.
tsu tzu: your god is an impotent little punk, and your are a groveling slave. so, b1tch, get back on your knees. open your mouth and get ready for the second coming of jesus
tbt is a mouthy little punk, blathering EMPTY PROXY THREATS that his punk-a$$ god, dreamt up by iron age sheep molesters, is supposed to fulfill. tbt punk, your mouth is writing checks on an empty account. so, c word (NOT christian), why not show some incentive and go meet jeebus halfway? do you have tall buildings where you live? perhaps a sidearm? salvation kneeling in front of jesus is just a step away. come on, boy, grow a set and put your money where your mouth is.
manbearpig: what a gig, eh? "judgement days is coming......yessir......aannnnnny time now.......the end times is a comin'......aannnnnny time now"
sam stone –
"An eternity of endless horrible agony is coming at you...right...NOW! Wait I messed up. My loving god will torture you...right...about...NOW! Nothing? Dammit."
manbearpig:
Tbt, you have the most flexible definition of "truth" I've ever seen...
-
Well, of course. How else could it get it to fit into its mouth? Or up its azz?
TBT, I have a cat that's as dumb as dirt. He adores my husband, but if my husband puts on a hat, the cat freaks out. Doesn't even recognize my husband. You make that cat look like a genius.
TBT, I have a cat that's as dumb as dirt. He adores my husband, but if my husband puts on a hat, the cat freaks out. Doesn't even recognize my husband. You make that cat look like a genius.
Come to think of it, you make the HAT look smart.
"And just what are "we" doing, you simple-minded dolt?"
As what Jesus said in His 7 last words: "Father, forgive them, they know not what they're doing".
Wasn't Jesus that Great Loving and merciful saviour, was He? Tomie?
"And just what are "we" doing, you simple-minded dolt?"
As what Jesus uttered in his 7 last words: "Forgive them father, for they know not what they're doing."
Wasn't Jesus a great, loving and merciful saviour, wasn't He? Tomi?
Here's a question that befits your level of intelligence, honeypot: do you really think "Tomie" is the nickname for "Tom"?
Now, when you figure out the answer to that one, ponder this: do you really think this: is a sentence that would pass muster on a 5th grade assignment? "Wasn't Jesus that Great Loving and merciful saviour, was He?"
Now, you fvcking moron, get back to class. You're an idiot.
Ahhhahhhaa! You're a real piece of work, TOOL.
You can't even post without fvcking up, can you?
Thanks for the laugh. Go study English, Charlie Chan.
TOOOL, really, thank you!! That was the best laugh I've had all day.
I knew English was a second language for you, but the depths of your struggle with it were unknown to me until now.
Thank you! You have made my day worthwhile.
The more I care if you keep humiliating yourself on this blog. Rave on, TOMIE! LOL!
It's "I could care less". Don't attempt idioms when you can't even comprehend the basics, TOOL Turd.
तुम पूरी तरह से अक्षम हैं।
Or:
I ei voi huolehtia vähemmän.
And also:
أمك تمتص الإبل الأعضاء التناسلية للذكور.
In judgement you will torture yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n6LSpFgxL94
Who cares if they call themselves Christians?
Observer and all atheists blogegrs here you ahve so many questions and no answers and I suggest you ask your questions to CatholicsComeHome.org. Good luck!!
Based on empirical observations here, most of the atheists posts are to counter the bogus claims of the religionists – not questions that lack answers.
ligaya, no thanks for the linkspam. Shove it in fact.
The catholic business folk must be desperate for the ad revenue, although they (pope included) were never big on ethics or morals.
@ligaya,
I went to the link you suggested. Not much info for Atheists. You pretty much need to believe, or want to believe, before the sight is worth any exploration. There's no new insights or persuasive teachings as far as I can tell.
@truth be told,
If all the Christians on here who pick on gays ACTUALLY were concerned about sins, they'd be spending all their time trying to save all their fellow HYPOCRITES who divorce and remarry thus commiting adultery.
There are FAR FAR MORE of them than there are gays. OOOOOPS!
Observer –
Good point. What do you wanna bet no christian addresses it?
@exlonghorn
I am sorry if at first you can't find answers. Is this the link? http://forums.catholic.com/ Click the non-Catholic religion and you can join more than hundred thousands of bloggers around the worls. Its like CNN . There is a lot of respect, no judging of views and you can pose a question and thousands will give you insights and then there's a forum.
ligaya,
Why are so many Christians picking on gays when they have far far more adulterers among them to save?
ligaya sez: And then there's a forum.
Whoopee. Are all the posters as smart as you are?
Observer, Christians ensure all sinners hear Jesus' truth about life and the hereafter. It's you nonbelievers that insists our intentions are that of singling out a group. We are equal opportunity of spreading Jesus' truth to every/any sinner(s).
P.S. Observer, we are all sinners just in case you wanted to run rampant with my statement.