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 Mitt Romney and his family attend church last weekend.
August 21st, 2012
09:20 AM ET
My Take: Romney should take reporters to church more often
By Stephen Prothero, Special to CNN Mitt Romney’s team invited reporters to go to church with him last Sunday, and The New York Times is reporting that the upcoming Republican presidential convention will showcase Romney’s faith in an effort to humanize him. So are we finally going to get a Mormon candidate for president? Romney has been widely criticized for running against his past - against what he did at Bain Capital and as governor of Massachusetts, and against his prior views on abortion and health care. And while he hasn’t flip-flopped on his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he has been loathe even to mention it in public. In his 2008 “Faith in America” speech, Romney boldly proclaimed his religious heritage. “I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it,” he said. “My faith is the faith of my fathers - I will be true to them and to my beliefs.” But in recent years he has been hiding that faith under a basket. In fact, in a much anticipated speech to evangelicals at Liberty University in May, he never used the M-word. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter The concern is there is little to be gained (and much to be lost) by emphasizing his Mormonism. Latter-day Saints founder Joseph Smith was assassinated during his run for president in 1844, and anti-Mormonism has a long and sordid history in American life. Today many on the secular left and the religious right alike are wary of a Mormon president, and according to a recent Gallup Poll roughly one in six Americans say they would not vote for an otherwise qualified Mormon. For all these reasons, Romney's campaign strategy so far seems to have been two-fold: 1. Whenever possible, avoid talking about Mormonism. 2. When pressed, speak of the importance of religion in general and emphasize the common moral values shared by Mormons and evangelicals. 3. Emphasize the American heritage of religious liberty. I have been arguing for months that this strategy is not sustainable. What self-respecting debate moderator wouldn’t jump at the chance to ask Romney about how his Mormonism might affect his policies on taxation or food stamps or war with Iran? CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories And is it really plausible to do the two-step around the religion question all the way to November when the candidate in question may well be the most religious candidate in U.S. history - someone who spent two years as a missionary, followed by decades of church service, first as the Mormon equivalent of a Methodist pastor and then as the Mormon equivalent of an Episcopal priest? It made sense for John Kennedy to draw a sharp line in 1960 between his private Catholic faith and his public life since he came from a Democratic Party that followed Thomas Jefferson arguing for the strict separation of church and state. But Romney’s GOP has spent a generation attempting to overthrow the Jefferson/Kennedy consensus by bringing religion ever deeper into U.S. public life. So it just doesn't make sense for this Republican nominee to try to cordon off his private faith from his public policies. CNN Explains: What’s Mormonism? For all these reasons, I have argued repeatedly that Romney would be well advised to take the initiative - to define his faith in his own terms rather than awkwardly and defensively fielding (or fumbling) questions about it. Now it seems like a faith offensive may be in the offing, not least at the upcoming convention. But how to talk about Mormonism without unearthing all the awkward stuff - the history of polygamy and theocracy, the Mormon underwear? One way, of course, is to try to emphasize the values similarities between evangelicals and Mormons - on questions like abortion and gay rights. But an even more effective way may be simply to invite reporters to church. Like any religion, Mormonism has changed over time. And today Mormon services don’t look all that different from Methodist worship. In fact, the common theme coming out of much of the reporting about Romney’s church service Sunday seemed to be how unremarkable it was. In Buzzfeed, reporter McKay Coppins, who also happens to be a Mormon, referred to that service as an example of “the fundamentally un-exotic Mormon experience.” Admittedly, they serve bread and water rather than bread and wine, but Latter-day Saints worshippers praise Jesus in song as their “Redeemer” and send prayers up to their “Heavenly Father." And when their worship service is over they march off to Sunday school. For generations, scholars of religion focused their research almost exclusively on Scriptures and belief. In recent years they have shifted their collective focus to religious practice. Perhaps that is the strategy of the Romney campaign, to shift the focus from the eccentricities of the Book of Mormon and the heterodoxy of Mormon beliefs to the ho-hum of hymns sung at 10 a.m. on a New Hampshire Sunday. If I have the tune right, the message seems to be that Romney is one of us, and his religion is not so different from whatever yours might be. Will that message resonate? It depends. It depends on what Americans know about Mormonism and about their own creeds. However, it also depends on how much they think faith should matter in presidential politics. Ironically, if voters follow the Republican line on that one, Romney might well lose. If they follow Jefferson and Kennedy, he has at least a fighting chance. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Stephen Prothero.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor's note: Stephen Prothero, a Boston University religion scholar and author of "
get religion OUT of politics...
get RID of tax exemptions.... this is what we should hear MORE of
Yeah repeal the first amendment!
Mormonism is a man-made "religion" founded only in the 1800s by a charlatan mystic with a criminal record who had more than 30 wives. It's origin is kind of like the founding of the cult Scientology by L. Ron Hubbard. Romney is a Mormon bishop and missionary. Didn't Romney check out its sketchy origins before he got real involved in Mormonism? He is not presidential material.
...founded in 1800s in NY?
...founded in 1950s in CA?
...founded in 10s in ME?
...founded in 1500's BCE in ME?
Just like Christianity was made up in the 1st Century, by humans. It's all a pile of dung.
"according to a recent Gallup Poll roughly one in six Americans say they would not vote for an otherwise qualified Mormon."
And since Romney isn't even qualified, where does that leave him?
"Perhaps that is the strategy of the Romney campaign, to shift the focus from the eccentricities of the Book of Mormon and the heterodoxy of Mormon beliefs to the ho-hum of hymns sung at 10 a.m. on a New Hampshire Sunday."
That may be the strategy...and like all others that Mitt has tried to implement, this one will not work either.
But he's not qualified, that's what Americans are looking... isn't it?
Unless this nation's politics changes, we are close to the doom all civilizations must face. It does not matter who the president is. A bankrupt nation is a nation with a death sentence and no one has an answer for what the Republicans have done to destroy our nation's economy for their own personal gain.
Amen.
It was Woodrow Wilson, a democratic president and a democratic congress which gave us the Federal Reserve System. Politicians have been mortgaging our future to the Rothschilds for 100 years to jockey power between the two parties. Now the credit limit has been reached and the bill is due.
So are you saying the Federal Reserve system is bad?
@J.W. –
Forget about the political arguments against the Federal Reserve and those foisted by paranoid conspiracy theorists. Fractional-reserve banking, controlled by the Fed, is how money is created in the United States (and most of the developed world). The result is that, categorically, debt will always exceed the amount of money in our economy. A recipe for inevitable disaster.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why this website needs a moderator...
@Who invited me?
you're a prat. Stop doing this. It is irritating, futile and a waste of our time and energy.
Not again ?
The Geoge Bush's were bad Republicans. Barack Obama is a bad Democrat. Mitt Romney does not appear to be a good or bad Republican. Just a generic one. Because of who we have had before – Bush and Obama – many of us would die to just have a generic candidate. So it looks like generic vs. Evil in this election. I wish we had a good candidate, but for now, I beg of people to please vote in generic Romney so we can get the self-proclaimed enemy to the free market, Obama out!
WHEN DID BARACK SAY HE WAS A MOSLEM ???? WHAT DAY WHAT YEAR ???? I DON'T THINK THE TWO PEOPLE THAT SAID THAT OR WROTE THAT KNOW WHAT THEIR TALKING ABOUT !!!!! I THINK THE TIN FOIL HAT'S YOU WEAR FELL IN THE HOLE'S IN YOUR HEAD'S AFTER YOUR BRAIN'S FELL OUT!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY HERE IS YOUR PROOF!
@mkriley
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You think this "proves" Obama is a Muslim? You're not serious are you? I swear you must be a poe, you can't be that fucking stupid. This video is about as honest as Expelled (absolutely no honesty).
So Barack Obama saying, "my Muslim faith" is not an admission? What libtard weed are you smoking? Watch the video idiot!
Oh yes editing tricks are always fun. You really are stupid enough to think that video shows anything aren't you? OH that is just too funny!
Courtesy of @ME II
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp
Besides all of the f ucking legal disclaimers that the people that put up the video make.
This a ssertion that President Obama is a Muslim is absurd.
Peace...
So Hawaiiguest, you probably still believe that Obama was born in Hawaii. Well, watch Michelle Obama admit, in her own words, that "Barack's home country is Kenya!" I guess you'll find a way around this one too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7Rp_Ghv6k
Yeah... calling "Troll" on @mkriley
Good lord, mkriley – that youtube video is what you consider "proof?!" I would say "LOL", except it's not funny, and I'm not laughing. Has the education system in this nation truly failed completely? I graduated high school in '93, got my MBA in 2001. 2001 was only 11 years ago, and even the freshmen at that point knew what "proof" was. Since you don't, I'll tell you what it isn't: sound bytes, wild conjecture, and misrepresentation of facts. You probably also believe that Saddam Hussein is really Santa Claus, Moussolini was a cartoon who was chased by a cat named Tom, and that Republicans spent the last 3 decades keeping our deficits low.
Latter-Day Saints normally do not refer to themselves as "Mormons". We're Latter-Day Saints, or if you prefer, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the last part being necessary to distinguish it from the church that was established by Christ some 2,000 years ago before it apostasized). Mormon was a prophet and scholar and the principle editor of the Book of Mormon. We don't worship prophets. We don't pray to them. We don't call our church after them. We don't call ourselves by their names.
All this religious crap is making me want to throw up. Should have nothing to do with the election. Religious type are creepy and scary and are basically Jesus salesmen for their own monetary gain. This holier than thou stuff is stupid.
666
666 666
666 666 666
You should type out Obama's name in all 6's.
Umh
Romney is a one percenter. cant be trusted. Any rich person cannot be.
Raise taxes on them to the roof. save the 99%
And then shoot them? Or shoot them first?
no shooting. Use the ballot not the bullet. Vote in people who will care for you and do things for you. then see the difference.
@Bill Deacon
Remember, Sarah Palin is a Republican, so we have to worry about that side more in terms of shooting people.
I don't think a candidates belief or non-belief is important. That said, extremismdoes bother me alot, and I do think that Mitt's religion is a good example of a religion that takes things to an extreme. They are overly rigid in their practices and treat their followers terribly when they question anything about their faith.
Being an Independent voter, were I considering him, his religion might just prevent me from voting for him.
Remember that the Mormon religion has a "prophet" with "disciples" at all times, and every mormon is supposed to listen to what they say, or says that god wants without question (their own doctrine). So we have to wonder, if the current prophet says that god wants Mormonism to be the official religion of America, will Romney be true to his own religion and push for it, or will he disregard it and show that he's willing to follow the doctrines when it's convenient.
@hawaii. You don't seem to be familiar with our beliefs. Here is our 11th article of faith:
“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the di ctates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
or skip the worship bits entirely.
yeah, take case to the UFO church planet ... ridiculous
Perhaps we should all attend a Mormon service this week to see how radical or non radical they are. I for one wants to know for myself, not just what the reporters on both sides of the issues will spin. I found the following app on their website. http://www.lds.org/rcmaps/#lat=0&lng=0&z=2&m=google.road&layers=selected&x=find&find=advanced
I invite the rest of you to join me in the next week or two to check them out for ourselves. Perhaps then we will know does Mitt have a Pastor Wright issue. (I voted for Obama despite Pastor Wright). Never the less, I want to know what his belief system is.
@Steve
" Perhaps we should all attend a Mormon service this week "
No thanks.
Peace...
Steve, stop astroturfing for the lds.
A Mormon service isn't that different from any other Protestant service. Trust me; I've been there.
That said, I wouldn't show my face at ANY church service these days, unless the worshiped deity were the GSM.
Did you mean the "FSM" ? Never heard of the "GSM" 😀
Peace...
Thank you, "therealpeace". I erred.
@williepitt
No problem, bro... too much 'pasta' overload ! 😀
RAMEN !
Peace...
For my part, I find Romney's religious values to be the most appealing thing about his candidacy. Evangelical views on Mormonism have changed considerably in the past decades. When I was at a Christian high school, we would watch videos on how Mormonism was a wicked, sinful cult with bizarre beliefs and a disturbing history, but today Mormons are seen as a personally disciplined, loyal, family-values-centric people who are kind and polite and charitable almost to the point of creepiness. There's been a vast improvement in their public profile. I think Romney should be emphasizing his faith, not downplaying it. Do you realize it's been twenty years since there was a non-weed-smoking President? Maybe it's time for one who doesn't even drink coffee.
That evangelical views (or any other religious views) can change shows that they are based on falsehoods to begin with.
All religion is bad.
Y'all don't know what you're talking about. Religious beliefs and values are changeable, we need to adapt to changes in society and adjust with the times. And faith is obviously a force for good in the world, you're crazy to say otherwise. I'm not a very religious person but the people I know who are are the best people I know.
One thing Mormons and evangelicals, heck most religions have in common is this over whelming desire to tell you how to run your life and what you can and cannot do. I dispise Organized Religions for that very reason. I believe in GOD, but not a "revealed" god and not one that says you can run my life. Mittens church is one of worst offenders there is. Right up there with Baptist.
mkriley, go sit in the Dunce Corner with your pal, KEEF. He doesn't know anything, either. You morons are priceless.
A social justice Christen,a Mormon and two Catholics running.
Gosh............ how come there are no Athesist running?
Could they not get elected because their views are "too exterme"?
At one point it was too extreme to believe the earth rotated around the sun or that our planet was round
Who is the "Social Justice Christian?" Barack Obama is a self professed Muslim.
Jimmy,
Its because religious people think their views are too extreme. In reality, their views are totally rational.
@mkriley
" Barack Obama is a self professed Muslim. "
Really ? Direct quotes from him (Obama) if you got them ?
Peace...
@mkriley`,
"Barack Obama is a self professed Muslim."
I'm thinking this makes you a self professed idiot. That right?
Please don't consider OBAMA christian even he says that, it clear that he is a Muslim and youtube.com full with he word "my muslim faith" anyway I respect Muslims but I don't accept hidden your self to run the country by way not that you promised us and we accepted you.
You asked for proof. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY And then you can give me a public apology for your stupid remarks.
@Anyone
Again, it appears that you and -mkriley have proof of President Obama being a Muslim.
Please provide proof, ... a video tape of him actually saying... "Yep... I'm a Muslim." 😀
Peace...
@mkriley
O.K... I went and watched your you tube video. You know, the one with the... *Legal Disclaimer* that says: "The writers, producers, and editors of this video are (not) *claiming or *implying that Barack Hussein Obama is a *Muslim, or that *Obama *said he was a Muslim. "
Ooooooopsy ! 😯
Nowhere on this video does he "profess" that he is a Muslim.
You just wasted my time ! You owe 'me' an apology.
Peace...
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auwe-aGF4Lo&w=640&h=360]
This is the prove
OBAMA said this not us, again we respect everyone but is it a BIG lie
So Barack Obama saying, "My Muslim Faith" is not an admission? Did you even watch the video?
@Anyone, @mkriley,
Youtube? really?
No where, that I can tell, in those clips does he say that he is Muslim. The only one that's close is "My muslim faith" which is a quote from an interview that is taken out of context. Take a look here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp
As someone once said, "The correct answer is, 'He's Christian'. The really correct answer is, 'So what if he is Muslim'?" Or something like that.
Sorry, my bad. I guess you know more about Obama's faith than Obama. Remember, these were HIS words, not mine...."MY MUSLIM FAITH." Can you read English?
@mkriley
Did you go to snopes and read the transcript? You should, then you would know how false this whole perception is.
@mkriley,
First, it's a video, which I don't normally "read". Second, if you watch the full interview, that phrase is in reference to what others had been saying about him, not what Obama believes.
You know for religious people they can't forget it as you can't forget your name or you are man or woman, it is something you say nature and doesn't need another one to remind you, even in the interview the discussion about christian faith, no one spoke about Muslim faith, anyway I'm not stopping for him, he is free and you too. God bless you and want to tell every muslims that we care about them and this argument s about truth. Thanks and I got to go
Prosecuter:
When did you stop beating your wife?
Defendant:
That's a trick question, which cannot be answered.
Prosecuter:
Have you ever beaten your wife?
Defendant:
Thank you for not asking about my "beating my wife".
The answer is, no, I have never beaten my wife.
Religion and faith is extremely important in this country. Putting the fear in a higher diety in people's minds is what keeps most of them from killing, stealing, raping, etc...
Can you imagine if the bible-thumpin' wackjobs knew there was no consequences or repercussions in the afterlife for doing the things that the bible tells you not to?
Why you'd call those people politicians. And fear of the after life is not what keeps most people straight.
@tjkarani
Interesting... I've had several conversations with theists arguing that without a "moral law giver" like 'God', then our society wouldn't know what to do with itself. We'd devolve into utter and complete moral chaos, i.e...murder, a ssault, r-ape, theft, etc...
However, I 'do' actually agree that there 'is' a certain % or segment of society that without a belief in God, and the 'eternal hot-house' then... they 'would' commit crimes.
And... there are still a certain amount of folk who 'do' (already) believe in God, hell, etc... and commit these crimes anyway. 😯
Oooops... *Cue... 'No True Scotsman' arguments from the theists.
Peace...
Theist, Athieist, and Agnostic......
The first two are beleifs and I don't know about the third.
@jimmy
Dude... that was so horrible that it made me chuckle. 😀
Peace...
Good point but might be less pedofiles.
I think that Atheist and Theist are both beliefs because it takes a position on whether or not there is a god. Since according to agnosticism they dont know, it does not really take a position. So the only one out of the three that is not a belief is agnosticism.
@J.W.
Atheism isn't a belief that there is no god, it's a lack of belief in a god/gods. How is this so hard for people to understand?
J.W
Everyone carries on with their lives based on some core belief. Christians believe they follow the way the truth and the light yet most do not follow what they claim and follow their own belief. Agnostics and atheists claim their core belief is not of God. They have no proof of this yet only believe in that which can be proven as their core belief. This is why their belief is considered foolish because its very foundation is conflicted thus must constantly defend their belief with science that does not apply. In fact atheists and agnostics have a belief and at their core operate according to the prevailing Christian World view as do most Christians. This is why there is little difference between behavior of Christians, agnostics and atheists. Christians defend their belief even though their actual behavior does not reflect it as do agnostics and atheists.
Atheists and agnostics like to think they have purpose and meaning in life that is different than most Christians but the results of their lives do not seem much different. The only difference is we belief Christ will cover our sins by his mercy and grace while atheists and agnostics think they do not sin or by definition are saved by semantics.
hawaiiguest
So you expect me to believe that you grew up in bubble and your core belief was not affected by the Western Judeo-Christian World View? Even Stalin and Hitler were affected they simply sided with evil.
@fred,
you have this so wrong on so many levels.
Atheists understand that Christians can find purpose and meaning in their beliefs and there is nothing wrong with this.
Atheists don't need everything "proven". I don't believe in God. The non-existence of God is not "proven". You can't prove the non-existence of anything, We've explained this a bunch of times yet you choose to ignore it.
@fred
When I deconverted from Catholicism, I had to rethink all of my moral stances. I used to oppose gay rights with a passion, and then realized that there was no reason to oppose it without my religious delusions. I had to justify everything that I believed to be morally correct in my life without the fallback of "god said so". Anything unjustified was discarded. You throw out a completely irrelevant accusation based on me giving the difference between "X doesn't exist" and "i don't believe X exists", and expect it to mean something? Where the hell do you get off?
@fred,
"The only difference is we belief Christ will cover our sins by his mercy and grace while atheists and agnostics think they do not sin or by definition are saved by semantics."
Saved from what exactly? Sin is a religious construct, but right and wrong are knowable to everyone – these are societal. If you don't believe in an afterlife there is no notion of eternal punishment for behaving 'wrongly' but that doesn't imply that atheists think such behavior is therefore appropriate.
Show me where choosing 'wrong' behavior leads to contentment for anyone. Happiness and contentment in this existence derive from choosing the 'right' behaviors.
Hawaiiguest
You had a de-conversion while I had a conversion experience. Suddenly I realized my core beliefs which resulted in acts and actions that I thought “right” or justified were “wrong”. I used simply the words of Christ as the foundation. This was a radical change in my most inward thoughts that resulted in obvious outward expression.
Gay rights is not the issue at hand with regard your rejection of Christ. What you are speaking about is a denomination or cult like religious extraction from the truth (Word of God) that reflects poorly on Christians and the Bible. You cannot fault the truth of Christ because someone used it in a wrong way.
I did not say all atheists are like Stalin anymore than I said all Christians are like Hitler. My post related to Christians behaving no different than atheists or agnostics while claiming a higher belief. Very few Christians adhere to the words of Christ or attempt to follow his teachings which results in things like gay bashing.
@fred
My deconversion took place because I did the one thing the Catholic church says not to do, actually read the bible. Study he history, independently think about what I'm reading. Pray like a mad-man for the faith or the revelation or whatever, and getting absolutely nothing. Then I realized that any truth is not dependent on whether you want to believe it. Things like the Earth being round is not dependent on whether I want to believe it or not.
fred, you've shown before that you only care about things in the bible you like, and are willing to rationalize or ignore the things that make you uncomfortable, so pardon me if I don't take what you say about the "word of god" (AKA The Bad Book, The Big Book of Multiple Choice).
I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV
Sin is an offense against a holy God and it does not matter if you believe in God or not. Christians and non Christians justify sin in various ways. If there is no Holy God then of course sin would be nothing more than a religious construct. As far back as our records go we see the construct of good as something the pleased a higher authority not a lower authority. It is pure speculation that this construct of good just happened for social purposes across almost all cultures. Certainly there is no proof God did it yet why the necessity of higher authority if there is not one needed.
Jefferson for example found Christ to be a great example of a moral individual that lived out his belief. He did not buy into the existing religious construct but adopted morals that went back to the beginning. Are these not the morals you hold high?
@fred, (reposted)
I think that the teachings ascribed to Jesus* in the Gospels are indeed excellent words to live by. I also think that the Buddha and Lao Tsu have very worthwhile things to say too.
* Except for the references to the 'kingdom' etc. I don't find them as relevant.
Disbelief in God doesn't mean I think that everything written in the bible is garbage. I just don't believe it is the 'word of God'.
You say this: "It is pure speculation that this construct of good just happened for social purposes across almost all cultures."
I disagree here. It is not speculation at all. It is empirically observable. The study of anthropology could provide us with many examples of cultures defining a moral code without ever hearing a burning bush or seeing graven tablets. They are all able to figure out that killing, stealing and lying are 'wrong' in their communities.
I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV
Christian conversion experiences are also empirically observable. The experiences have predictable foundations and predictable results. Conversion experiences in the past 300 years where there is abundant data matches the conversion experiences written about by Paul during the establishment of the Church. The steps to conversion follow those given by Jesus and I can personally testify to the complete transformation of thought. Now, the excuses I hear on this site is that the same happens with any self help book so you cannot claim any Divine path as the cause. Another excuse is that the same happens with other religions etc.
Well how is it that your empirical observations from a period where records are incomplete just happen to point to no God needed and is acceptable when in fact your evidence is much weaker?
The methodology of Christian conversion experiences is clear while source of morality is unclear.
I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV
The burning bush was unique to Moses but evidence of worship and afterlife goes back to Neanderthal. The tablets were in the days after the escape from Egypt related to the Hebrew while the question of good goes back to the first modern man. A believer would say good is the image of God imparted into man as Genesis sets forth. You suggest somewhere about that time goodness began to evolve. This social evolution theory cannot answer the question of the origin of morality anymore than abiogenesis explains the origin of life.
@fred (reposted here in context)
What does conversion to Christianity have to do with intrinsic morality?
I don't presuppose an origin of morality other than to say it exists. It is fluid and since it clearly differs from culture to culture and with time it is not absolute.
Even Christianity has a fluid definition of morality. Contemporary Christians would agree that slavery is 'wrong'. But slavery is clearly condoned in the bible. What changed? The bible didn't change. The moral interpretation of a society that happened to be predominantly Christian changed.
Christian morality therefore is not immutable or absolute. There is no objective 'God-given' standard.
I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV
“What does conversion to Christianity have to do with intrinsic morality?”
I was simply trying to figure out why empirically observable moral code in various cultures was acceptable evidence whereas empirically observable conversions over various cultures and times were not acceptable evidence as to source . Applying different standards of acceptable evidence for the roots of intrinsic morality and the roots of faith did not make sense.
As to objective God given standards love your enemy would most likely have resulted in the end of Hebrews given the cultures around them at the time of exodus. God seems to work with the people in their place and time or the people simply are reflecting their revelations of God through their eyes and culture. Either way it certainly appears subjective.
@fred, (reposted here in context)
I'm still not getting point of your references to Christian conversions.
Are you trying to suggest that since the west embraced Christianity, the tenants of Christianity were superior in some way to the religions of the pagans?
Given the early successes of Christianity, arguably they were. Embracing a monotheistic God of 'love' in Jesus probably appealed more than a pantheon of pagan Gods who liked to mess with the mortals for sport and required a regular diet of temple offerings to placate them.
Christianity of course ran into all kinds of squalls with the exact nature of the divinity and person of God resulting in schism after schism. Then when the adherents learned to read, the Protestants reactivated a vengefull old cuss from the pagan, late-bronze age, DL called Yahweh and we've been dealing with the divisive consequences of the wars of the reformation (particularly in this country) ever since.
Given the spectacular success of Islam in the 6th century immediately following the death of the prophet it's no doubt that Muslims think theirs is the true faith too. Their record of conversion was faster and more permanent that the Christian conversion.
But we are in agreement that morality is subjective.
Sorry – tenets, not tenants.
Ooops.
I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV
The conversion experience where there is a spiritual awakening of the soul happens about 2-3 million times a year. Every time I suggest empirical observation of conversions is proof that there is a soul I get shot down. Why do these consistent observations not support the position that man has a soul? The awakening is consistent in understanding by faith what could not previously be seen by the non believer. On what basis can you conclude that what is now seen does not exist?
Good morning fred, (reposted)
An unbeliever isn't going to allow any inferences of a soul but empirical observation of conversions really does not evidence a soul. Conversion can have many causes that are not spiritual in nature. People convert and unconvert all the time.
Far more compelling than conversion as illustration of a soul is the existence of such notions of the perception of truth, love, and beauty etc – concepts that are not measureable in physical terms – distance, mass, voltage, etc. Almost by definition I don't accept this as evidence, but the whole brain chemistry thing is a weak argument.
Hawaiiguest
I have had a conversion experience and my faith keeps my mind (soul etc) focused on Christ. I have never experienced a de-conversion. Personally at this point I do not think I could un-know what I think I know about that which cannot be seen or measured in a materialistic sense.
Prior to your “de-conversion” would you say you had a theological knowledge of God or an encounter with God that opened up the Kingdom in a real sense? Where I am going with this is that I see some of the points of reason raised against Gods existence but none that can overpower the personal experience and faith element.
@fred
Prior, I would say I definitely thought I did. I felt all that sense of peace and conviction, yadda yadda. Essentially, I felt like you probably do right now.
hawaiiguest
Well there have been times disbelief creeps in. At those points I backtrack over the miracles and points where Gods presence was clear from deep personal need. My thought is since I was pulled out of a deep pit it seemed more miraculous. It is also why I look for the goodness of God in all things as my experience was one of Gods overwhelming good towards me.
When you toss stuff like the slavery issue I focus on the warning that God gives the Hebrews never to forget what it was like to be a slave. But, I do wonder why God just did not say I don’t care what your neighbor’s do we don’t own slaves period. I can justify why God did what he did and the Bibles account of it yet fall short of getting non believers to go along with the excuses.
As to Catholicism they added a lot of sacraments of manmade ceremony on top of what the Bible actually said. If I was a Catholic and discovered how men’s ways crept into Christianity I would be skeptical of religion. Fortunately I see the Pope, Bishops of LDS, Mohamed etc. As men that preferred their version of truth over the truth that always was. These men all have records of failure in truth. I still have not found failure in Jesus or the major truths Jesus expressed. Jefferson and others discount miraculous events of Jesus but that cannot overide my personal experience of miricales.
@fred
I have never seen a miracle, nor seen a confirmation of one occuring.