By Arielle Hawkins, CNN
Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.
From the Blog:
CNN: Rick Warren cancels presidential forum; mixed explanations as to why
High-profile pastor Rick Warren has called off plans for a presidential forum that he said was scheduled to include both major party candidates, but there are conflicting accounts about why the event was canceled. Warren told the Orange County Register that he was nixing his "civil forum" because of the toxic political climate.
CNN: Conservative Christians rally around Akin in face of GOP criticism
Even as the official Republican Party continues to try to derail Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin over his remarks about “legitimate rape,” a powerful force within the GOP has begun rallying to the candidate’s side: the party’s socially conservative base. Powerful Christian activists in the GOP have begun pushing back against party leadership, alleging it has gone too far in trying to thwart Akin and that it is attempting to sideline issues that social conservatives care about, such as abortion.
CNN: Cardinal Dolan to offer closing prayer at Republican Convention
Roman Catholic Cardinal Timothy Dolan, America’s highest-profile Catholic official, will deliver the closing prayer at next week’s Republican convention, in another sign of how important the Catholic vote is expected to be this year. Dolan is the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the church’s U.S. arm, and has been an outspoken critic of the Obama administration’s rule requiring insurance companies to grant employees no-cost contraception coverage.
Tweet of the Day:
[tweet https://twitter.com/JoelOsteen/status/238786924452642816%5D
Belief on TV:
Enlightening Reads:
Huffington Post: Joe Walsh Meeting With Muslims In Illinois After 'Radical Islam' Remarks
Rep. Joe Walsh (R-Ill.) is no stranger to controversy, but in the wake of his recent comments about radical Muslims “trying to kill Americans every week,” members of the Muslim community in Illinois are hoping to show the congressman they are just as American as he is. According to the individuals leading the effort, Walsh, who represents Illinois’ 8th congressional district, has agreed to meet with members of the local Muslim community on Friday.
Religion News Service: Romney says tax returns would publicize private Mormon tithing
Mitt Romney says in a new interview that one of the reasons he’s distressed about disclosing his tax returns is that everyone sees how much money he and his wife, Ann, have donated to his Mormon church, and that’s a number he wants to keep private.
JTA: RJC, ECI demand removal of ‘radical’ rabbi from Obama list
Two conservative groups called on the Obama campaign to sever ties with a "radical" on its newly-released list of more than 600 rabbis who support the president's reelection. The campaign rejected the demand. The Republican Jewish Coalition on Thursday “expressed profound outrage” that Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb, a Renewal rabbi from California that the RJC described as a "radical rabbi", is part of Rabbis for Obama, which was launched Tuesday. Gottlieb sits on the advisory board of Jewish Voice for Peace, a group that is active in the campaign to use boycott, divestment and sanctions to pressure Israel into ending the occupation of the West Bank, and that has no official position on whether Israel should exist as a Jewish state.
New York Times: Preserving the Passion of India’s Roots Music
Lakha Khan sat on the floor of a stone hut, legs crossed and white turban in place. There he coaxed a bright, high-pitched, dizzyingly fast melody from his violinlike sarangi. Mr. Khan, 66, is one of the few remaining Sindhi sarangi players among the Manganiyars, a caste of hereditary Muslim musicians who live in this desert state of Rajasthan. He usually plays for hours with no more company than a couple of passing goats, but Ashutosh Sharma and Ankur Malhotra are working to preserve the music of the Manganiyars, whose songs — devotionals as well as stories of births, deaths and love, often about the Hindu families that are their patrons — have no written record.
Quote of the Day:
I am making it very clear that the interest of religious freedom is something I support wholeheartedly and will work with him [Cardinal Dolan] and with others to assure that each piece of legislation that we consider is thought also in terms of its impact on religious freedom and tolerance. This is a nation where our first freedom is the right to worship God as we choose, and any effort on the part of the federal government to intrude on religious liberty and to reject tolerance in favor of a government mandate is a violation of that first freedom.
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney discusses religious freedom with Raymond Arroyo in an exclusive interview on the EWTN show “The World Over.”
Join the conversation…
CNN: Anti-abortion movement stands by 'no exceptions' orthodoxy amid controversy
Both Todd Akin’s claim that women’s bodies can prevent contraception in cases of “legitimate rape” and the GOP’s newly-adopted platform language calling for a constitutional ban on abortion have provoked controversy for largely the same reason: They showcase the belief that all abortions should be illegal, without exception.
It's really best for all people including children to have an agnostic approach to god, and an atheistic approach to all religion. Teaching kids to be agnostic helps reinforce their understanding of the new real things they can see and learn about in life. It helps them properly separate the known from the unknown without confusing them. They just need to be taught things that are unknown, like god, and things that are made up, like all religion.
Atheists have strong minds, and don't run and hide their misdeeds within their religion (and by doing so, disserving society).
We have only begun to scratch the surface in using the mind to its maximum. Damaging it with made-up junk that politicians and salesmen dreamed up long ago is senseless, and limits the mind's potential. These politicians and charlatans didn't even do a good job of organizing and being consistent with the stuff they dreamt up to try to control people. Daddy used to say they were caught with their pants down when the bible was first translated so that common folk could read it. Very true.
Instead of praying to make-believe people, get a good cup of tea and go on and sit down and collect your damn thoughts. My goodness.
mama kindless
WORD = GOP Association
Old People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Sick People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Poor People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Female People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Non-white People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Non-christian People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Unemployed People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Gay People = Glob of cells that we don't care about. Let them die.
Glob of cells in a womb = Something we PRETEND to care about just to get votes.
Make all the jokes you want about Christians, at least we don't perceive people as cattle.
No, you see them as sheep, that's much more better.
The politicians that kept some people glued to christianity and other made-up religions have always thought of people as sheep. And weak-minded fools over the centuries have obliged. Mama kindless grew up on a farm. Sheep are maybe not the dumbest animal, but they don't know how to do a damn thing on their own. So Damocles is right here – sheep is the better description.
Oh Joy, now HeavenSent is perseverating on "Blazing Saddles"!
Actually it was about the GOP
It's really best for all people including children to have an agnostic approach to god, and an atheistic approach to all religion. Teaching kids to be agnostic helps reinforce their understanding of the new real things they can see and learn about in life. It helps them properly separate the known from the unknown without confusing them. They just need to be taught things that are unknown, like god, and things that are made up, like all religion.
Atheists have strong minds, and don't run and hide their misdeeds within their religion (and by doing so, disserving society).
We have only begun to scratch the surface in using the mind to its maximum. Damaging it with made-up junk that politicians and salesmen dreamed up long ago is senseless, and limits the mind's potential. These politicians and charlatans didn't even do a good job of organizing and being consistent with the stuff they dreamt up to try to control people. Daddy used to say they were caught with their pants down when the bible was first translated so that common folk could read it. Very true.
Instead of praying to make-believe people, get a good cup of tea and go on and sit down and collect your damn thoughts. My goodness.
mama kindless
Not bad, I kinda like it and I do enjoy a good cup of tea.
Atheists believe the lies of the devil. Read Matthew 23:1-39 to see who you follow.
Add Matthew Revelation 3:9 to the reading material.
This crazy HeavenSent girl is trying to say something about "Matthew Revelation 3:9 ". I have to assume she means just "Revelation 3:9" in her last post. It doesn't matter. It is all hogwash anyway. I've read all of it. Studied it with groups as a child and as an adult too. And my goodness why bring up Revelation? Whatever politician wrote that must have crashed his camel in a field of burning poppies or something to come up with that mess.
mama kindless
Not my post but that of the phony heavensent control freak pervert's babble.
Mama kindless won't be satisfied until the folks that conditioned her simple mind makes her one of their cattle.
that fool HeavenSent said "Mama kindless won't be satisfied until the folks that conditioned her simple mind makes her one of their cattle."
Lol. Mama kindless has a strong mind and is in charge of her own life, unlike people like HeavenSent whose mind is stuck in a circle of make-believe madness. You might not realize that you are the sheep who can't think for herself without her made-up religion (with all its conflicted characters that were sold as part of a bad political deal), but it sure is clear as a bell to most people who have just an ounce of sense. Go on and keep fooling yourself. Be all the idiot you can be.
Prayer changes things .
k.thnx
Embrace the Truths, atheism is useless and God is available. God bless
You should pray for some imagination.
@simran
The challenge is quite simple to accept, but to survive it.... maybe a little more difficult, unless you have a deific animal shield on your side as HS seems to claim. I'm still scratching my head on why she won't do it. It'd make great headlines.
Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs! ~
The lack of understanding of everything is not evidence for God.
You have the right to stay ignorant.
So have you done your homework yet? Why did God put man at the top of his creation?
Simran, are you directing your question to me? If so, God gave man (meaning women too) authority over everything on the earth and in the seas to help us.
P.S. God records how you treat the animals and all His creation. Do you use and abuse? Or, are you utilizing, with respect what He's provided to us.
And why did he wait for so many billion years to bring man here to take care of his creation?
And who is the we he was helping? Us humans or his creation?
@HS
I would like to issue a challenge to you. Go tell a wild bear that your deity has given you authority over it. Trust in that authority.
Damocles, the bear, like all God's creations have it's purpose.
So you are unwilling to place your trust in your deity given authority over the wild beasts of the earth?
Simran, everything is created by God. You don't like that truth? Too bad that it goes against satan's lies.
Damocles, God gave us wisdom. Satan gave you lies.
Damocles, God gave us wisdom. Satan gave you lies.
I'm going to just say that statement is belief-speak for 'hell no I'm not willing to tell a bear my deity gave me authority over it'. Strange that your faith is so weak.
Damocles, you're being stupid. If I raised the bear from cub stage and it was used to me, I would have a different answer for you, though, I'd know the bear's strength to be stronger than man's. Same thing happened with the female trainer that drowned a few years back when the killer whales strength kept her under water for too long. The killer whale didn't do this on purpose. Same with a bear. It's stronger than humans and I'm not going to prove my physical weakness as a human because you're an idiot.
You made the claim that your deity gave you authority over animals, did you not?
You then stated that you are unwilling to prove said authority over animals, did you not?
Don't back down now and get all defensive. I want to know why you are less than eager to prove your dominion over animals.
Damocles, God gave us authority over the animals. What's your point? Do you want me to become a bear trainer so I can prove I dominate over his physical strength or do you want me to prove the faith of the mustard seed? Either way, I'm not interested in dominating animals.
lol. whenever someone gives up on HS's ability to reason, she just keeps on going, but she has to start talking to herself more, so that's when you see her reaching for her pile of writings for the "Pat Robertson Enlightened Fortune Cookie Co. for the Retarded" (she was let go from there a while back).
Just face facts Tommie Tom and whatever handle you're posting under. You were conditioned not to believe in Jesus.
Matthew 23:1-39
Revelation 3:9
@HS.
Just because you've exercised your right to stay ignorant – you don't need to share.
@HS
No, you silly little non-person, I don't want you to train anything. I want you to go to any wild animal and tell it that your deity has given you authority over it. I guess you are missing my point, which is absolutely shocking because you are usually so on point.
HS,
My question was plain and simple – why did god wait billions of years before he decided to bring man on earth?
Now you want to be that kid who was asked on the exam paper – describe a cow. Now this child didn't know anything other than that cow is an animal. But the child had crammed up an essay on fields the night before.
So, this is how the child's essay on cow was – Cow is a lovely animal. The cow is tied to a pole in the field, then someone comes and opens the knot. Now the cow is moving around in the lush green fields ... the green fields are beautiful, full of grass.... and so goes the essay!
@Damocles,
Now that is a tough challenge. I am sure gos will come to help HS, but ...
A country preacher decided to skip services one Sunday and head to the hills to do some bear hunting. As he rounded the corner on a perilous twist in the trail, he and a bear collided, sending him and his rifle tumbling down the mountainside.
Before he knew it, his rifle went one way and he went the other, landing on a rock and breaking both legs. That was the good news. The bad news was the ferocious bear charging at him from a distance, and he couldn't move.
"Oh Lord," the preacher prayed, "I'm so sorry for skipping services today to come out here and hunt. Please forgive me and grant me just one wish.... please make a Christian out of that bear that's coming at me. Please, Lord!"
That very instant, the bear skidded to a halt, fell to its knees, clasped its paws together and began to pray aloud right at the preacher's feet.
"Dear Lord, bless this food I am about to receive... in Jesus' name... Amen."
spawn, you are either a cattle owner, or cattle? Take your pick bumpkin.
@HS: i choose wolf; because i don't own people (cattle) and i'm not the type of animal to be owned (cattle). i'll eat your sheepherders,sheep, cattle owners, cattlehands and the cattle before moving on to less fatty foods. lmfao
@mfsbt
I guess the same can be said about the range of hypotesis of the earth's age – thousands to billions. A more honest answer from both sides would be to say "we don't know for sure"
Their is no division in the scientific community about the age of the earth. Everyone accepts the age to be about 4.6 billion years old. The only people who say anything different are apologist, and young earth theorist. Neither of whom are an accept part of the scientific community because they are frequently intellectually dishonest. By that i mean that they start with a model and then look for data to support the model. Actual science is done by gathering data and then creating a model to fit the data. This allows a researcher to avoid the confirmation bias.
As far as the "we don't know for sure" argument. We don't know for sure that their isn't a gnome living in a teapot orbiting Saturn, but no one will refute me when I say that such a gnome does not exist.
my bad, mispost.
ahhh so science then has proven to be fautless?
oh no .. science is not faultless. If you can disprove something, by all means DO it!! We'd welcome that. But, you'd better make damn sure your evidence can stand up to scrutiny. To disprove or to conclusively prove something in the scientific manner benefits ALL, because we've all learned something REAL. So go ahead, prove it, but like I said, make sure your ducks are in a row, either for the positive to prove it or the negative to disprove it.
Agreed so I would hold you to the same standard. Based on Science is G ay nature or nurture?
Huebert agreed thus far Science has been able to prove knmoes don't exsist.
No, it has been proven to be self correcting though. The theory of planetary formation by accretion has withstood every test put to it since the 1920's. However radiometric dating has just this year received some credible and interesting challenges so that may have to be up dated soon. Though even if those challenges hold up they would not alter the earth's projected age by a significant degree.
Huebert agreed thus far Science has been able to prove (gnomes) don't exist.
Actually, it hasn't. Negatives can not be proven.
As an old gay dude, I can tell you that my belief is that being gay is an attribute that you are born with. True that I cannot prove this, but so far it makes the most sense to me and how I have felt since before puberty. My parents, siblings, early school life as a youngster made Ozzie and Harriet look like Ozzy Osbourne, so I'm reasonably sure that nurture is not a factor. (Well, and I should also include that I was not unhappy as a child.)
I do firmly believe that unless you remove religion from the equation, one cannot look at this objectively. But, to be honest, I feel that way about religion and anything. So assuming that one was starting from my perspective, then, aside from one's own inward gut feeling – what else is there to go on? And that's where science has helped by noticing ho-mose-xuality exists in so many other species on this planet naturally. Actually, it was as long as forty years ago that more than one straight person enlightened me to that fact in attempts to help me validate my feelings.
It is certainly sad that a good chunk of the rest of the civilized world has moved forward on this issue, enabling straights and gays to live outwardly and harmoniously, whereas here in the US we are still in the dark ages with it. But this is the danger of religious extremism and poor education that is is stunting the intellect of large numbers of people on a great many issues.
so ben just for a respectfu clarification, before puberty, you made decisions that informed your belief that you were gay?
Environmental factors do play a considerable role in the development of se.xuality. A recent twin study found that in the case of identical twins, who have identical genetics, If one of the twins is gay their is about a 50% chance that the other twin will identify as gay. Where as with fraternal twins, not genetically identical, if one twin identified as gay the other twin only had a slightly elevated chance, over the general population, of identifying as gay. This means that genetic and environmental factors each account for about half of the variance in se.xuality.
@mfsbt: absolutely. We are talking age 10, and even earlier, but that's a good age to say I was starting to be consciously aware that I was different and had very strong feelings that didn't fit the "norm" or most others around me.
I know someone who is gay and all of his three male siblings are gay (no twins in the mix).
again growing up in a alcoholic home, exposes me to the proclivity and the modeling of drinking but does not give me the excuse I can't help it
Again my uncle whom I love and respect is my litmus test. He owns his choices.......
@mfsbt: asked – "so ben just for a respectfu clarification, before puberty, you made decisions that informed your belief that you were gay?" To clarify: Initially I replied "Absolutely." I didn't read your question carefully enough. I didn't make any decisions about it at that age – quite the contrary, I was not "out" for many years, plus I hadn't made any decisions to fully accept who I was – I was just aware and knew that my feelings were consistent enough by that age to not be ignored. And certainly by my mid teens I had accepted that those feelings would not go away (even though I was nowhere near any kind of se-xual activity or outwardness yet).
@mfsbt,
"again growing up in a alcoholic home, exposes me to the proclivity and the modeling of drinking but does not give me the excuse I can't help it"
Why do you associate being gay with alcoholism?
Anyone can choose to act or not act on their own desires, but in many case those desires are not conscious decisions. As I've seen asked in similar discussions, 'When did you decide to be straight?' Meaning that if it were a decision one could choose or not, then at some point straight people choose to be straight.
I guess because I of my background I have never understood why " I can't help it I was born this way" is something to be proud of?
" I can't help it I was born this way"
Can you "help" being straight?
So far, no one has figured out from scriptures if God told us how old the world is. He could have written this in His truth (the Bible). God unveils more and more of His truth in the Bible for each generation that seeks.
http://www.biblestudysite.com/begin.htm
@mfsbt,
I am assuming that you are straight.
Who said anything about being 'proud' of it?
MEII I have answer that question. I guess I chose to be strght based on my upbringing and environment. I made that choice. Just as i made the choice not be an alocoholic. So be if you choose to be gay, why be ashamed of it? My uncle isn't. Life is hard no matter what you choose, and for gays it is getting easier, but what comes with that are the same challenges heteros face, marriage, divorce, children.
So at some point you felt an attraction to both your own gender and the opposite gender, and decided consciously that you would choose to be attracted only to the opposite gender?
I am weary of the victim response " I can't help it" poor me a victim of my urges. My uncle has been a positive model, of owning his convictions, that is where I am coming from.
yep, i probably did. Puberty is a confusing time, and I just felt more comfortable as a hetero
I don't see anyone acting like a 'victim'.
Are you attracted to all members of the opposite gender? Why not? If you can choose to be attracted to a specific gender, why not choose to be attracted to a specific person of that gender? Can you decide to be attracted to, say, a 60-year-old person of the opposite gender? Why not?
You "felt more comfortable"? So you didn't actually feel an attraction to anyone of the same gender?
Why do you suppose that is?
" guess I chose to be strght based on my upbringing and environment. I made that choice. Just as i made the choice not be an alocoholic. "
You guess? A choice is either made or not. When did you decide to be attracted to the opposite s.ex?
Again with disease association... it is not a disease. An alcoholic can choose to drink or not, yes, but one is either an Alcoholic or not. You never choose not to be one.
As a straight man myself, I have always been attracted to women, well since puberty anyway. I did not choose this, as I really can't even understand why women would be attracted to men. I can act on that attraction or not, that is a choice, but the attraction is there regardless of my choice or behavior.
@mfsbt – well whether it be gayness, alcoholism, or even patriotism, pride will do little to help one progress in life. It's always a double-edged sword, but I give the same ratio – good to bad – on pride in this country that I do with religious influence in this country – mostly bad in case you missed my earlier post.
Thanks old ben that does help......
ME II, being gay is a decision made in life to follow the lies of man instead of Jesus' truth. The same s$x appealing to you only proves God's creations to be beautiful. However, no matter how appealing the same s3x is to your eyes, your lifestyle is going against Jesus' truth of being fruitful and multiplying ... and that is your decision to go against Him.
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Isaiah 29:16
Amen.
@mfsbt
I think what concerns gay people is the fact that if they say its a choice then religious people would use that as a rallying cry of 'see, its just a choice and they could change if they wanted to'. I don't think a 'gay gene' is going to be found because, unless I'm mistaken, a straight gene hasn't been found either. I think being gay is as simple as being straight, you like what you like.
"I can't help it" poor me a victim of my urges."
Gay people are only as much of a victim as straight people.
And, yes, as a straight man, I am a victim of my urges, absolutely! (Sometimes I think, life would be so much simpler without women.)
I beg to differ on the alcoholic is a choice.......
@HeavenSent,
Apparently, you didn't see where I said I was straight.
Try reading before you spew your fantasies.
@mfsbt
"I beg to differ on the alcoholic is a choice......."
Please explain. How so?
I agree MEII and that is my poinod about bt using my uncle's experience and alcoholism. There is a choice to be made in both arenas. i have had a great example in my uncle's life – of owning his decsion, suffering for that decision at times, but being able to own that decision and feel good about himself. "The victim's whine" in any arena is what I find sad
ME II, Got it. You follows God's truth and gay folks reject His truth because they follow the lies of man through the media.
Damolcles – that is my uncle's position and I respect that about him
ME II, of course alcoholism or drug addictions are seen in the home environment. Children see alcoholics or drug addicts in their families get away with being irresponsible etc. What would you want to be when you grow up? A responsible person that has to do everything for the irresponsible ones? Or, irresponsible and have no cares in life that you are a complete waste of humanity?
" "The victim's whine" in any arena is what I find sad"
Perhaps, I have misunderstood, what do you mean by "the victim's whine" in relation to being gay?
I don't know any gay people who are complaining about being gay, just about how they are treated for being gay. Which, if they are being discriminated against, they have every right to complain about.
@HeavenSent,
You are making less and less sense.
I'm sorry I even responded earlier and will endeavor in the future to eliminate such lapses.
Peace
perhaps I can clarify the "victim's whine" statement. I can't help it therefore I need special status, for the alcoholic, I have to pay for their treatment as a taxpayer, for the obese, they can take half my seat on an ariplane, one that I paid for! For the gay I ave to have more special protection under the law.
My uncle (again my peronsal example) put hi mself through Harvard and is a respected academic in his filed, and he did this being gay. Despite the challenges, he succeeded..... hope that helps you understand my perspective....
Oh, I almost missed the part in the other part of this twin thread about the uncle likening gayness to alcoholism.
Well, when talking to an older person about such issues, one should keep in mind that back when that older person was struggling with their own sense of ident'ity and causes, theories and generally accepted ideas on the subject were most likely quite different (assuming we are comparing ages several decades apart). I do know quite a few (not a lot) other gay people who think about this issue no differently than they did when they were young even though science and socially acceptable norms have moved on around them.
@mfsbt,
"For the gay I ave to have more special protection under the law."
What special protection exactly?
all I am saying is that in the nature vs nuture question. Science has not sufficiently concluded either. I am proud I have a family member who is gay and despite all the versions out there of why he is the way he is, he has been able to overcome, and be successful and loving family member......
LOL, ME II, you posted (LOL again) "I can't help it" poor me a victim of my urges."
Gay people are only as much of a victim as straight people.
And, yes, as a straight man, I am a victim of my urges, absolutely! (Sometimes I think, life would be so much simpler without women.)
Answer: Women are spiritually stronger than the angels that were born of woman to live life as males. That's why God assigned the spiritually stronger angels to be born of woman to come into the world in female form. Without females, there would be no mankind on earth ME II.
Although I wish this discussion would progress from a "are you born gay?" to a "should gays be fighting for equal rights as a civil rights or separation of church and state or both?" issue, I am intrigued by who thinks alcoholism can be predisposed at birth by alcoholic parent(s).
ME II, which post doesn't make sense? That alcoholics and drug addicts are selfish, self absorbed and want others to do their bidding as long as they can get AND stay stoned!
And does anyone know if there is a button on the comments page that I am missing that can turn off spam from HeavenSent?
Old Ben, there is no such wording as separation of church and state written in the 1st amendment.
@HS
Now without women there would be no mankind.
Care to tell me how did the first woman appear on Earth?
@mfsbt
"Science has not sufficiently concluded either."
Depends on what you mean by "sufficiently". While I agree that there is no conclusive evidence pointing to a single biological determinant, there is evidence that there are multiple biological factors involved in determining se.xual orientation, most of which the individual has no control over.
"...he has been able to overcome, and be successful and loving family member......"
So, you don't know of "specific protections"?
I would posit that what your uncle overcame was prejudice and discrimination against being gay, and furthermore, if those had not been present, he would not have had to "overcome" any more than anyone else.
old ben, you are a typical atheist that wants life to go your way and only your way. Therefore, everyone who disagrees with your lying nonsense needs to shut up. Why don't you learn truth instead of being conditioned by lies?
@old ben
If such a button exsisted I would have hit it so hard that the force would knock HS right out of her rocker.
HeavenSent,
It sounds like you are "stoned" on your supernatural fantasies.
MEII I agree that is what I am saying he is a great example of overcoming that prejudice.
ME II, give me a break with the biological references. The gay lifestyle started out due to wanting to have s3x with same s3xed partner(s) instead of opposite s3x partners ... so babies would not be the outcome of the s3xual encounter.
It has nothing to do with prejudice. It has to do with, atheists believe lies and Christians believe Jesus' truth.
@mfsbt,
"he is a great example of overcoming that prejudice."
Agreed. And you are right to be proud of him.
However, why not fight/argue against the prejudice instead of the victims (sorry), or targets, of prejudice?
@HS
Just when I say to myself 'there's no way HS can top her last bit of casual stupidity', damn if you don't go proving me wrong.
OTOH, you atheists with your lies does turn my stomach and gives me a headache.
old ben as a citizen what part of your rights are being hindered? Free speech? to marry (in most states for now) the ability to adopt? Can you be more specific? What rights for you are being inhibited?
Here comes the old stand by of the atheists Damocles, cutting the opponent down because you want to insist your lies will trump Jesus' truth. Read the end of the Bible, satan and his minions loose.
Good question MEII BUT how do you extricate the two – other examples human trafficking, special needs population, etc?
This idiot HeavenSent wrote: "Old Ben, there is no such wording as separation of church and state written in the 1st amendment."
Did I say anything about the 1st amendment? No, I did not. The first amendment does though address the issue, the concept, you dingbat, of separation of church and state where that is the generally accepted term to used to describe what it addresses. Did you sleep through your high school governemnt class?
@mfsbt
"Good question MEII BUT how do you extricate the two – other examples human trafficking, special needs population, etc?"
Not sure I follow that.
I was asking why not fight against the prejudice instead of against the complaining about prejudice?
Your earlier statements were against the "victim whining", but if there is actual prejudice and discrimination, then aren't the complaints about prejudice and discrimination legitimate complaints?
@HS
Have I mentioned my beliefs in any post? Nope.
Can you, HS, tell me *in your own words* what the harm of being gay is? Drop the biblical quotes and speak as yourself.
old ben, it is you that's an ignoramus believing the lies of the original atheists. The division of church and state was penned in a private letter Thomas Jefferson wrote years after the amendments were in place. The atheists, hating that our country is built on Jesus Christ's truth, spun that letter of Jefferson's supporting religious beliefs to their lies of that Jefferson didn't support religious beliefs. And, that's how the atheists make Thomas Jefferson to be an atheist, when in fact, Thomas Jefferson wrote his own Bible.
Fools like you benny boy love lies and the liars that spew them.
hmmmm let's see......my criteria as to whether it is a "whiine" or not is this, if I can explain it well.
Human trafficking – there is a victim, oppressed and yes a reason to help and defend
alcoholic – there are opportunities for treament and help they can choose to use, things society has put in place for recovery
Difference – the 10 girl in Thailand, right now does not have opportunities
hope that helps
Damocles, the harm of living the gay lifestyle is not knowing or believing Jesus Christ's truth. If a person doesn't know Jesus' truth, they do not get to reside with Him for eternity. Why do you think the media pushes the gay lifestyle so much? Who runs the media and who do they follow?
@mf
Can't the human trafficker say he or she was a product of their environment? That trafficking was all they knew?
mfsbt asked: "old ben as a citizen what part of your rights are being hindered? Free speech? to marry (in most states for now) the ability to adopt? Can you be more specific? What rights for you are being inhibited?"
Well at my age, I feel like I need to speak up for others that should be afforded rights that they are missing. I have no desired to be married or have children. I feel like I can say anything I want, so that's not so much the issue for me personally. Good questions by the way. Marriage and adoption are good examples of rights that have not and still are not equal when comparing gay and straight couples/parent(s). To keep things simple at first, let's just take marriage. Married couples are afforded certain rights and advantages – financial advantages. Those rights and advantages are not equally afforded to gay couples in many places. That is a civil rights issues. A common example of this would be death benefits. The problem is that state governments, in many cases, afford those rights and advantages, in a legally binding way, based on the same term that is religion wants to reserve to protect its tradition and core belief. So I why anyone would not think that the gay marriage issue is not both a civil rights issue and a separation of church and state issue? But I hope I at least started to answer your questions.
Yep he can and thus use the "victim's whine" but that does not excuse the hateful act upon another person......
In my last post my last sentence should have started "So I wonder why ", not "So I why ".
@HS
Still you hide....
I have asked this before, but I don't think I ever directed it towards you so maybe you will answer it. If a deity is 'everything' does that not include being gay?
@mfsbt,
I was assuming a distinction of external vs internal control. i.e. those who are trafficked cannot choose to be free whereas alcoholics can, ultimately, choose not to drink.
I guess I was assuming that you would agree that being discriminated against is not something that one can choose or not choose for oneself.
In other words, it is outside of their control as to whether someone discriminates against them.
yes old ben that does help – I so often hear the cry of the lack of civil rights and heard it in the context of marriage. Looks like hat is changing so I was wondering what else... thanks
@mf
No, no it doesn't.... tell me, are you equating being gay with a harmful act?
ME II iagree globally there are many examples where there is no freedom to choose.. FLawed as we may be in America we strive to put things in place to right those prejudices. Where there is opportunity for help and recovery and it is not used I find a sorrowful waste.
Damocles – Hardly! geesh where did you get that from my statement? I was trying to understand the arguement that gays feel the civil liberty laws are not enough, and what else do they need, other than the marriage issue. Lighten up apparently you have not been reading the posts.....
@mf
I'm always light-hearted during these conversations. It was just a question.
HeavenSent blabbed: "old ben, it is you that's an ignoramus believing the lies of the original atheists. The division of church and state was penned in a private letter Thomas Jefferson . . ."
Oh now this is ringing a bell. Lol. OK, HS, you just keep on rewriting your own version of the Const'itution. Lol. Do get back to us once you get it ratified. In the mean time, try sticking to the current one or court decisions that have referenced it.
Damocles, you posted "@HS, Still you hide....
Answer: You atheists need to learn patience. I'm working as I post. Some times I have to log off for a while to get some work done.
more of your post "I have asked this before, but I don't think I ever directed it towards you so maybe you will answer it. If a deity is 'everything' does that not include being gay?"
Answer: God is not gay. Gay people make His writings to be gay. It's called free will to act the ass.
@HS
Now see, the first part of your comment sounds like you, the second part not so much.
old ben, you and other fools can believe your nonsense. All anyone wants to do when in a court case and the first amendment is brought into it, is have the first amendment read into the minutes and not the atheists spin on it.
Damocles, what part of sinners who want to overcome their sins, read, comprehend and apply Jesus Christ's truth to their lives.
Versus ...
Sinners who refuse to learn, comprehend Jesus Christ's truth change what He had written to what the sinner wants written do you not understand?
HeavenSent blabbed: "old ben, you and other fools can believe your nonsense. All anyone wants to do when in a court case and the first amendment is brought into it, is have the first amendment read into the minutes and not the atheists spin on it."
Oh I see, so the Const'itution is not to your liking and when it has been referenced in court, it has never been done so correctly and in accordance with your views. OK, I see. Well, I'm afraid you'll have to rewrite it. Or you could become a const'itutional attorney and get involved and make sure they are interpreting it to your liking. Like I say, get back to us on that.
old ben, you guys pulled a fast one? Now you want everyone to abide in your religion of atheism which is not to believe in God. You're so stupid you haven't a clue to who conditioned you, unless you do know and play stupid.
I wrote – "lol. whenever someone gives up on HS's ability to reason, she just keeps on going, but she has to start talking to herself more, so that's when you see her reaching for her pile of writings for the "Pat Robertson Enlightened Fortune Cookie Co. for the Retarded" (she was let go from there a while back)." LOL – I rest my case again.
I never watched Pat Robinson preach. Face the facts, you were conditioned not to believe in Jesus. Those that conditioned you don't care if you burn in the eternal flames.
Two must reads for the nonbeliever ... that's if it's not too much reading for the lazy to do.
Matthew 23:1-39
Revelation 3:9
Not disappointed on either account, good for you, so to disappoint you – to think that would make me unhappy
I don't want to make you unhappy, I want to make you ask questions.
That's EXACTLY what my 9th grade physics teacher said at the beginning of the school year .So, we asked. Even though it was a Jesuit (Catholic) high school, we got real science answers. The word "god" was NEVER mentioned at all in that class as I recall.
Ok then – I truly don't understand the big deal about g ay vs not. It's a choice you make and yep people/society may give you a challenge but if it what you believe about yourself, then own it and be happy
ok, when did you choose to be hetero? C'mon.. tell us when? How old were you when you decided to life the straight lifestyle?? I asked about the gays for a reason, and I wanted HS to give an answer.
I mean really they now can marry,have children, deal with divorce – everything the rest of society deals with. They don't want to be special so guess what you are not anymore, just another demographic struggling with life, so be happy you have arrived!
I am sure my choice was born out of the same things as a gay person – relavant background factors, exposure and personal choice....
I've always been here lol ... and you haven't answered my question yet. For the record .. again... I'm not gay, I'm too much in love with the female form lol Personally I'm happy for them in the states and countries that allow it.
So you're saying that a person is gay by nurture, not nature?? Is that right? Just want to make sure your point is clear.
I did answer your question, came to the choice the same way everyone else does>>>
Until science definitively isolates a gay gene then I guess yes I think it is a personal choice. How do you understand the the process? Is it just nature or just nuture?
it isn't nurture.. Humans are not the only species that exhibit homosexual behavior
Seriously – I don't understand why it is a bad thing if being g ay isjust a choice. I find that a more honest approach than the arguement, I can't help it I was born this memway. Have very little tolerance for that arguement coming from anyone. A family memoer of mine is g ay said he chose the lifestyle and I reprect him for his honesty.
So as Science is the standard, you say it is nature then?
Respectfully asking, if your answer is nature then please cite the scientific research that supports this.
I think you need to look at the research done by psychologists, physicians, neuro-biologists and the like. My gay friends have said it really wasn't a "choice", they simply accepted and embraced who they are.
No problem I don't mind waiting for your answer, I am very curious to see science solve the nature vs nuture queston on this topic. I too have a high expectation that sciene will eventually answer every question
So you have formulated your answer based on your gay friends experience, as I have based my answer on my uncle's choice to be gay. Neither is scientifically concluded, but both of us have been informed by our associations....interesting.
I don't have the links to the research papers, I'm sure they are on Google. But humans are not the only species to show gay behavior. And those animals do not know the difference between gay or straight.
Ok because a goat is g ay therefore my uncle is only as smart as his physiological impluses? He would take issue with that, as he is a professor and very intelligent, and snarks at the idea, that he can't help himself. I agree this issue is present in other species, but to say we are just victims of our urges, is not scientific. I have googled this issue and scienctists are saying they have not isloated the patheology of a gay gene. But science does say it is a proclivity, but they can not say it is a nature issue – yet
@mfsbt – just fyi – i see that this is like a double thread – my reply to the topmost heading is recent.
Thanks Ben! I dd catch that and I responded to you....
I have listened to my uncle debate this issue for most of my life. He takes issue with the "I can't help it I was born this way arguement" and is prouder to say he chose it, than to be thee victim. He likens it to being the child of an alcoholic. Relevant background factors aka growing up in an alcoholic home, does not always result in alcoholism, nor does being gay mean I waa born that way.
What your uncle says is just anecdotal evidence. He believes that he chose. That doesn't mean it's true. And if it is true, it doesn't mean that everyone else who is gay chose.
mfsbt,
The only way that your uncle could have "chosen" would be if he was attracted to both genders. As a teenager, I associated with 100x more girls than boys, but the thought of being s.exually intimate with any of them never entered my mind - and as teenaged girls do, we did a certain amount of physical contact too, like hugging, doing each others' makeup and hair, rubbing on suntan lotion, etc. A turn-on? Nada. A choice? Nope.
Your uncle would be no more a "victim" than I would be a "victim" for not turning into a 5'10" leggy model.
as stated in my original post "ancedotal" or associative experreinces is all we have to go on since science has not confirmed the nature arguement.
It is a statistical fact that the more older brothers a boy had, the greater chance he has of being gay. It is theorized that since a male fetus produces amounts of hormones that are foreign to a woman's body, the mother's body eventually starts creating "antibodies" to protect itself, thus "feminizing" the fetus.
There is also a physical difference in brain structure: the brains of gay men are closer in appearance to heteros.exual women than they are to heteros.exual men.
These are just two studies out of many. It really isn't that difficult to find information on the topic; all you have to do is actually look. Rhetorically, I have many friends who are gay or lesbian and not one of them actively made the choice about their orientation. There is no logical reason for the discrimination faced by gays and lesbians in our society. There is only the hysterical bigotry perpetuated by religion and ignorance.
The whole concept of se.xual orientation is a social delusion. And more than 1500 animal species are known to be se.xually diverse. No one is born with se.xual orientation. One is only aroused by specific members of the opposite se.x and not all of them.
Yes one possibility is genomic imprinting in the regulation of se.x specific expression of genes regulating se.xually dimorphic traits, including se.xual orientation.
Another interesting concept is of imprinting of hypothalamus during critical period of brain development. The results of more than four decades of research on different mammalian species have established that the brain, like the rest of the reprodu.ctive system, is esentially basically female. For the male to develop structural and functional characteristics typical of his species, his brain must be exposed to tes.ticular hormones during a critical period, or critical periods, of development. As mammals, human beings are most likely subject to this process of the hormone-dependent se.xual differentiation of the brain, but proving it will be difficult. Common sense ethics preclude experimental procedures such as ca.stration of neo.natal infants or exposing the female fetus to testo.sterone perinatally. Thus, scientists are restricted to the retrospective study of "Experiments of Nature." The results of such studies support to a degree a meaningful role of horm.ones in the development of the human brain. The concept of the se.xual differentiation of brain structure and function has a potentially profound influence on clinical decisions with respect to se.x assignment and clinical management of infants with ambiguous or poorly developed external gen.italia.
Se.xual orientation may also be determined by Se.xual Cue Imprints during some part of development beyond birth.
@mfsbt
So then how would you explain a gay person who was raised in a household that had no leanings towards being gay? Some genetic factors would have to be taken into consideration.
You are assuming alot here. – that there are no other mitigating factors environment......
Sorry fractured statement above.. you are assuming there are no other environmental factors in their upbringing
Ahhhh, so what you are actually looking for is ANY nonpersonal influence on being gay. You want to be able to say that a person came into contact with 5 seconds of gayness and from those seconds, they made the choice of being gay. Are you worried that being around your uncle may lead you down that path?
Simran wrote some very interesting things.
I'm always fascinated when scientist learn new patterns on the subject with regard to all of nature. I think it was long ago that I learned that certain types of insects can have several generations of pregnancies lined up in their bodies ready to go and where the se x can be switched at any time to be ready to go based on factors outside the host parent (such as weather, humidity, food sources, population density, etc.)
There is evidence to suggest that the process is not just environmental. In fact, solid evidence for post.natal social factors is lacking at present.
Cere.bral and amy.gdale asym.metries of hom.ose.xual group reflect more of the oppos.ite se.x heterose.xual. Savic, Proc Natl Acad Sci 2008.
Midsa.gittal plane of anterior co.mmissure in Ho.mo males was 18% larger than hete.ro females, and 34% larger than hete.ro males. Proc Nat Acad Sci 1992
Tes.tosterone in ute.ro affects fetal brain development – in terms of gen.der indent.ity and orient.ation, as evidenced by studies on girls with Con.genital Adrenal Hyperplasia.
Diffe.renti.ation manifests on a contin.uu.m leading to a variety of patterns of se.xual orientation, and by extension, of partner preferences.
old ben, God did not make you an insect. There goes that bs theory.
Simran, what is your favorite color? Now, why is it your favorite color? That's the same thing with being gay. You chose your favorite color, just as a gay person chooses to be with the same s3xed partner. It's conditioning you do to yourself, with the help of the man made media spinning you.
HeavenSent blabbed: "old ben, God did not make you an insect. There goes that bs theory."
What a complete imbecile you are. There was no theory proposed in my post relating to humans – none. In that particular post, I had clearly expressed my interest in all things having to do with what we have learned about science and se'xuality, without any mention of how this may have correlated to any other "theories" about humans. If this were the first time I read something so moronic from you I might be kinder, but there is an obvious pattern of pompous lunacy that needs to be handled appropriately.
and here this HeavenSent dingbat goes again with: "Simran, what is your favorite color? Now, why is it your favorite color? That's the same thing with being gay. You chose your favorite color, just as a gay person chooses to be with the same s3xed partner. It's conditioning you do to yourself, with the help of the man made media spinning you."
Can't prove that. But based on all your other posts, it is so obvious that your extremist religious beliefs keep you thinking like a two-year-old.
You atheists always throw wrenches in the wheels. You hate Jesus' truth because His truth cuts down your lies.
Figure out whom you follow ...
Matthew 23:1-39
Revelation 3:9
HeavenSent – "You atheists always throw wrenches in the wheels."
And I rest my case again. Even that Pat Robertson group wasn't about to let her keep putting stuff like this into their fortune cookies. lmao.
Tommie Tom, cough Scotty. You're a moron no matter what handle you hide behind. Read Matthew 23:1-39
Revelation 3:9 to find out who conditioned you fool.
I'm logging off now. You give me a headache and I'm going to get some aspirin.
You seem to get headaches a lot, HS. Are you sure it's not a tumor?
Really, you're so beyond silly it's hard to believe you're real.
My dear Heavensent,
My favorite color yday was red, today it is blue. A year ago I was fascinated by white. Now exactly how do you compare color preferences with se.xual orientation? Go back to school dlg. Didn't they teach you when grown ups are talking, the kids should just mind their own business – like play with their little Jesus toys!!!
It will be okay if you want to ask questions and learn stuff, but you just keep interrupting with your nursery rhyme that u seem to have just crammed up _ Jesus Jesus, yes papa, eating sugar, no papa...
Simran, you have 2 choices. Either you have a lot of noise going on in your life that you can't concentrate on Jesus' teachings or, you expect to be the owner of cattle. Take your choice.
Prayer has been shown to have no effect on what was prayed for. Critical examination of statements before they are accepted is essential to a healthy mind.
Atheists are spiritually dead as they walk and talk the robot in life.
and angry ! I don't get their anger. If the are so right then why waste time bashing others? so curious
@mfsbt
The problem with you Christians is that you have been refuted countless times and yet you still cling to your beliefs. Since you refuse to see reason or evidence, ridicule doesn't seem like an unfair option. Also you have to incorrect as.sumption the first being that I am angry,I'm not. I am enjoying my self. The second being that I am wasting my time. While I will never convert you, or most likely any of the hyper-christian posters, I have no way of knowing how many undecided viewers may be, most of my post are for them.
We only get angry when you try to lobby your little book into our laws. Tell us HS and MFSBT, should gays be allowed to marry, or adopt, or should they all be burned at the stake? Other than that, we're happy people, living our lives, doing our jobs, then someone like you gets in our face, at our doorstep, and tells us we're wrong because your little book says so, but you offer no evidence to back up your claims.
Geesh! I am not on this site to convert anyone – not my job or intent. I enjoy a healthy debate, but so often on this site it erodes in vitrolic acusations, So if you are g ay and happy good for you!
Sorry to disappoint you there.. but I am straight and happy
posted in the wrong place....as I said what a curious assumption you make, not disappointed on either point. if you are happy good for you
@Heavensent
"Atheists are spiritually dead as they walk and talk the robot in life."
Please support with evidence. Oh, and please for a change, dont quote ur story book. That reminds me you still have several previous questions left unanswered!!
Huebert how funny you do the same thing with your "you Christians" I believe we have responded and since you don't accept our sources as valid we come to the impasse you are so quick to seek......thus you feel justified. So again be happy in that
@mfsbt
We do not accept your sources as valid because your sources make ludicrous claims, such as Methuselah living to be over 900 years old, as well as claims that are empirically false, the earth was not formed in six days and their was never a global flood.
In light of this why, in the world, would anyone ever accept your source as valid?
This is hilarious reading HeavenSent calling atheists talking robots. Ever since I started reading these forums, there has never been anyone that comes close to HeaveSent and her robotic proclamations that are frequently not a part of any conversation. I guess the poster here is serving her up some of her own medicine.
I guess the same can be said about the range of hypotesis of the earth's age – thousands to billions. A more honest answer from both sides would be to say "we don't know for sure"
@ mfsbt.
I guess the same can be said about the range of hypotesis of the earth's age – thousands to billions. A more honest answer from both sides would be to say "we don't know for sure"
Their is no division in the scientific community about the age of the earth. Everyone accepts the age to be about 4.6 billion years old. The only people who say anything different are apologist, and young earth theorist. Neither of whom are an accept part of the scientific community because they are frequently intellectually dishonest. By that i mean that they start with a model and then look for data to support the model. Actual science is done by gathering data and then creating a model to fit the data. This allows a researcher to avoid the confirmation bias.
As far as the "we don't know for sure" argument. We don't know for sure that their isn't a gnome living in a teapot orbiting Saturn, but no one will refute me when I say that such a gnome does not exist.
@mfsbt
"and angry ! I don't get their anger. If the are so right then why waste time bashing others? so curious"
Not sure why being right would mitigate anger, but I suppose you might be trying to imply that an "atheist's" weak position produces their anger.
First, I'm not certain what you mean by "If the[y] are so right...". What are you trying to imply they are wrong about?
Second, in my experience, many Atheists get upset when other people try to use their religion to govern our society, such as , creationism/ID in science class, stem cell research, banning gay marriage, etc.
Mirosal, I'm not MFSBT or any other Christian that posts on this site.
You posted "We only get angry when you try to lobby your little book into our laws. Tell us HS and MFSBT, should gays be allowed to marry, or adopt, or should they all be burned at the stake? Other than that, we're happy people, living our lives, doing our jobs, then someone like you gets in our face, at our doorstep, and tells us we're wrong because your little book says so, but you offer no evidence to back up your claims."
Answer: Gays should not be allowed to marry. Just for the purpose of their lifestyle is a sin. If man changes God's law, the sin is no longer considered a sin against God. Not knowing it's a sin, man allows all the gay people to go to the eternal flames for all eternity. Gays aren't blotted out like other sinners. Their punishment is eternal damnation.
Mirosal, our foundation of this country is Jesus Christ's truth. He's our cornerstone. Our laws came from the Torah or Old Testament.
@HS
I truly hope that no one ever talks about you the way you talk about gays. Maybe thats what you need, someone to condemn you to some eternal damnation over something that is fundamentally you. Maybe then your eyes will open to the hatred that you have made an integral part of yourself.
Damocles, I don't talk lies about or to a person who happens to have chosen the gay lifestyle. You misinterpret what I post because you want to hate me for writing His truth. I didn't make the rules in life. God created all. You don't like Jesus and reject His truth, you're sending yourself to an unwanted judgment.
Simran, you follow the lies of satan. How in the world when living a lie overcomes being free to live truth?
Matthew 23:1-39
Revelation 3:9
@HS
You do talk lies, HS, you talk them with a crooked smile on your lips and an unsettling gleam in your eye. If an 'everything except gay' deity needs you as its mouthpiece, that speaks volumes to the deranged state of mind of said being. You drip words of hate like pus from an open sore and try to claim them as truth. You wouldn't know truth if it hit you in the head with a tackhammer.
Damocles, I didn't seek you out, you decided to post to me. You have 2 choices, either you have too much nose going on in your life that you can't concentrate on Jesus' truth or, you expect to be an owner of cattle. If you have no clue to what I'm writing you, get a brain and use it. Meaning, you are focusing on Christians as your enemy, which is completely opposite of what is really going down. You gays are the front line soldiers of much more than meets your eye.
@HS
So I'm gay now? Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about myself that I had no idea of?
I can't help but post to you, darlin, you are a trainwreck of ignorance. Any group that wants to impose willful ignorance must be fought with vigor.