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 A voice vote to change the DNC party platform turned to chaos Wednesday night.
September 6th, 2012
03:24 PM ET
Conventions leave atheists asking: What political party represents me?By Dan Merica, CNN Washington (CNN) – This convention season has not been good for atheists. The word "God" was reinserted in the Democratic platform after it had been removed. A plan to raise atheist billboards in the convention cities was stymied by opponents. And though there were preachers and rabbis and other religious leaders opening and closing each day of each convention, there wasn’t an avowed atheist talking up unbelief on either convention’s speaking list. The political lockout has left many nonbelievers asking, “What political party represents me?” “We are deeply saddened by the exclusion of a large number of Americans by both parties,” said Teresa MacBain, a spokeswoman for the group American Atheists, in an interview on Thursday. “It amazes me that in modern-day America, so much prejudice still exists.” After word spread Wednesday that Democrats left God out of their platform, atheists rejoiced. “Truly amazing news,” wrote Loren Miller on Atheist Nexus, a popular atheist blog. “The Republicans remain in the firm grasp of right-wing Christian religiosity, and I really don't know what it's going to take to free them from it.” But the convention committee immediately received huge pressure get God back in the platform. Even President Obama, according to CNN reporting, said, “Why on earth would that have been taken out?” when he first heard of the omission. In an awkward session that required three voice votes on the convention floor, the Democrats opted to add “God” back to the platform. For atheists, the Democrats were seen to be taking away a hard-fought victory. “We had 24 hours of joy as we felt (that) finally our government values all people,” said MacBain. “But that was short-lived. The vote last night angered many atheists and left them feeling excluded once again.” Online, atheist websites and Facebook pages went from upbeat to downcast as news spread of the platform revision. “Obama was the first president to acknowledge non believers,” Mark Musante wrote on the American Atheists’ Facebook page. “I wish he would stick to his guns.” Musante was referring to Obama’s 2009 inauguration speech, when the president said, “We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers.” Beverly Sitherwood, on the Friendly Atheist blog Facebook page, accused the Democrats of “Pandering for power.” Some atheist leaders used the platform defeat as a rallying call. “I guess a tiny step was too much to ask for,” David Silverman, president of the American Atheists, told CNN. “This was a clear message to the 16% of the voting population - we don’t count. Well, guess what, Dems - we do. And we vote.” Silverman says that 16% of the voting public identify as nonbelievers. According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, 12% of the electorate in 2008 was made up of people with no religious affiliation, though experts say the number of avowed atheists is much smaller. While acknowledging atheists, Obama has given platforms to high-profile religious leaders, including Rick Warren, a megachurch pastor who prayed at his inauguration, and Catholic Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who is giving the final prayer of the convention on Thursday night. American Atheists’ plans to raise billboards ridiculing the presidential candidates’ faith ended in failure. After the group put up billboards in Charlotte, North Carolina, the site of the Democratic National Convention, last month, it quickly removed them due to “physical threats to not only our staff, but the billboard company as well.” American Atheists had also planned on a billboard in Tampa, Florida, to coincide with the Republican National Convention there. But American Atheists said that all the billboard companies in Tampa rejected a sign taking aim at GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith. Perhaps because of the Republican Party’s ties to conservative Christianity, atheists tend to be Democrats. According to a 2012 Pew study, 71% of Americans who identified as atheist were Democrats. “The Republicans who spoke at the RNC seemed more like televangelists than politicians,” MacBain said. “The message was clear from the RNC: Get God, or get out.” The Republican’s 2012 platform mentions God 12 times, many of which describe the “God-given” rights that the Republican Party says are inherent to the American idea. Though most atheist groups claim that there are closeted atheists serving as representatives and senators, only one has come out as such. In September 2007, Rep. Pete Stark, Democrat of California, affirmed his atheism in a speech at the Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard University. soundoff (3,922 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Atheists, by their own actions, cut themselves out of the process. They llive in a world created by something they don't understand, therefore, they don't believe. God understands them.
Nice one Chris, i agree.
You don't speak for every Atheist, obviously.
A world we don't understand? We don't understand a world when we base our opinions off of scientific evidence instead of a 2,000 year old book that has no scientific backing what so ever?
By your own logic batman is real as there as comic books depicting his actions.
Chris says atheists dont understand their world while Chris couldnt pass high school biology so he gave up and summed up existence to an invisible space wizard. Pretty funny!
I belive in god and love him, but why did he make me so stupid? I just dont get it.
Atheist since you seems to know everything to the point where you know that there is no God, now please tell me where's your proof? Where's you scientific data that God don't exist. And don't come back at me with a detour of the question by saying bla bla bla about a fairytale book. Just answer my question with rational.
I ask you to prove an invisible wizard living ABOVE outer space isnt real. Why can't you? After that, go prove Cinderella and Snow White aren't real, either. I dare you!
We understand that gossip rags and reality shows are the most popular media in the world so we don't count on the majority that is religious people to jettison their archaic unfounded belief in fairy tales. Keep taking cues from your TV and leave the forward advanced thought to the atheist!
You and all your child molesting christians can go straight to h.e.ll with the jews and the muslems. You ignorant animal fu.ck.in.g a.s.s pa.rr.ot.
I'm a christian belittling science via the internet. If that's not irony, then what is?
And btw, i forgot that the bible lying about a worldwide flood, the dinosaurs, and the age of the earth is more than sufficient proof that the whole things a silly joke.
You atheist have an average IQ of about 60, just about 2 below the IQ of a mosquito, you did exactly what i told you not to do. You can't answer this question, that's the problem with you atheist people when ask that same question you go around the flower pot and avoid answering by slandering Christianity. You're not intelligent enough to realize that your science have no answers for this question and you don't even know why you don't believe in God.
You mean you cant prove an invisible wizard living ABOVE outer space isnt actually hiding up there? Then he must be real! And i also wont acknowledge that you proved th bible was lying about a worldwide flood that wiped out humanity, plants and animals; lied about the dinosaurs; and lied about the age of the earth. I wont acknowledge tht because theres no way to lie about it to make myself feel better!
Here you go again with the invisible wizard argumentation, how dumb it is of you. In reality it's that question that burns you atheist people, because your science can't prove God doesn't exist and it makes you mad. lol.
I hate when people call my little god an invisible space wizard because thats exactly what he is, but it sounds so stupid i dont like to admit it to myself!
Extraordinary claims - > Existence of God
Require
wait for it .....
Extraordinary proof - ?????
There is no evidence that there is any supernatural being effecting the human condition. The only religion we have is based on where we were born. If you were both in Ancient Egypt you would worship Horus. If you were born in Iron Age Norway you would worship Thor. People make up religion to explain things that they don't understand, so they can have an easy solution to problems. Atheism tells us that we are basically all alone and there are a lot of questions, but it doesn't ask us to believe anything that we don't see. That is the difference between atheism and religion.
LOL, thinking that we are alone in this vast universe goes against your own belief. You see, your science is not intelligent enough to know with the billions of solar systems out there should without any question support other species. The problem with scientists is that they are dumb to the point where if they can't see it, it means it don't exist. Well you can't see my house from where you're at but still my house exist. Your scientific belief have a huge lack reasoning. Sometimes things are there and do exist even if you don't like it. Ignorance is not even an excuse in a court of law.
Moron's guide to arguing informed atheists: Step 1-pretend millenia of scientiic advancement doesnt count Step 2-Say since you cant prove an invisible wizard living in another dimension isnt actually absent from that dimension, then he must bevreal Step 3-tuck tail and flee like the ignorant chump you are...
Every scientist says that the odds that alien life does not exist in the vast universe is pretty much impossible in terms of probability, so i have no idea what im even tlking about!
Like i always say, DumbAtheist.lol
And for the record i dont even live in a house. I live in my boyfriends rented trailer as long as i do what he says....
Dumbatheist is weird. Hes a gay christian that knows how dumb he is. How weird.
No i'm not Gay, but since when atheist are racist, tell me more, i want to see the real side of atheism. lol
Um they do have a party, the communist party. ex from party web site
Founded in 1919, the Communist Party USA has championed the struggles for democracy, labor rights, women’s equality, racial justice and peace for ninety years. The Communist Party has an unparalleled history in the progressive movement of the United States, from the struggle against Jim Crow segregation, the organizing of the industrial unions, from the canneries of California, to the sweatshops
I, on the other hand, am a proud supporter of the American Nazi Party.
Oooooohhh must have touched a nerve there I have a copy cat.
I miss being an alter boy. The bet years of my life... 🙁
That's atheism in all it's glory Jim lol.
I too was an alter boy, and I loved every INCH of it. They had to push me out th door to make me leave!
Would Jesus be against public health care?
The bible depicts Jesus as a socialist hippy that sought out people on society's fringes to show that harmony can exist. The modern christian however is an easily tricked pet that is controlled by the 1%'s propoganda.
Would atheist ever stop jumping on Christians back all the time and forcing them to become non-believers. I thought Atheism are not supportive on forcing others and yet they do it all the time.
Jesus would have done it for free, not tax the crap out of people and destroy a nation. You think public health care is so great talk to the Canadians and then see how you feel.
I dont even know up from down. I think i forgot my medication tonight!
Well said Jim.
I'm kind of thinking that Jesus might not have been in favor of the torture that the majority of American Christians approved of, or the unjust wars American Christians strongly supported, and he might also have pointed out that the only thing he said about marriage was that divorce, which so many Christians do, is an abomination, and not anything about gays.
I'm thinking that Jesus would look at the Right and wonder how the party that wants to do away with caring for the poor, which he specifically instructed his followers to do, claims to be his party. I'm thinking he would wonder why Christians are so nutty about guns.
But then again, he did get angry at a fig tree for not having figs out of season, and then killed it, so maybe Jesus' opinion is just blather anyway.
Americans approved? Most of those doing cruel things are atheist and sect followers who pretends to be Christians. A wolf in a sheep clothing.
Yes, a Pew Research study (they are religious, byt the way) found that the more religious you are, the more you support torture.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/torture-opinion-religious-differences
@DumbAtheist
" Most of those doing cruel things are atheist and sect followers who pretends to be Christians. "
Of course... beautiful example of a "No True Scotsman" fallacious argument.
Peace...
Who told you i was a Scotsman?
@DumbAtheist
LOL... God told me. 😀
Peace...
jesus had blond hair and blue eyes, and he spoke english and wore cologne!
@DumbAtheist
...And I just got f ucking trolled ! Arrrgh !!! 😯
Peace...
Answer. I try to follow the teachings of Christ but I think your reference to helping the poor would mean you think he would be in favor of welfare? food stamps well maybe maybe not. But I think that welfare is against his teachings. ( could be wrong trying to think off the cuff about a red letter teaching) anyhow it is my thought that it would be better to teach the poor how to fish, not enslave them with a third generation dependency system. Not sure about you but I look at the ghettos, public housing, checks for nothing except how many children you have etc. Not only does this do a disservice to the ones we are being so "charitable" to, but when we are bankrupt and unable to support those that we should have been helping to learn how to support themselves, well what is he natural outcome of this? Food riots, anarchy and just about everything that Greece is just only beginning to experience in this day and time. For the most part I agree with your post. I have not thought it out, this is a knee jerk response, but I'm gonna post it regardless. If anyone disagrees please be gentle.lol but meanwhile I ain't gettin rid of my guns.
Christians wanting to bring the number of abortions down to zero should vote for Barack Obama. The reason I say that is because he is offering free birth control to all women. The ideal situation would be to have free birth control and pro life policies. But electing Mitt Romney will not change the current pro-choice climate (you would have to overturn Roe v. Wade to do that). Romney would take away free birth control and the effect would be to INCREASE the number of abortions.
Dear American Atheists,
Now is not the time to outwardly promote atheism. It is going to take a very, very, very long time for America to catch up to the rest of the developed world when it comes to religion and religiousity, on this we must be clear.
Now is the time to promote education, health care, economic justice, and all of the other things in which you risk lagging behind for years to come. You must rally behind the Democrats in 2012 and stand in unity with your theistic compatriots who similarly care about the future of your country. Improvements in the aforementioned areas will lead to the conditions in which open dialogue on atheism can occur in a rational manner.
Fear not, the time WILL come when ignorance no longer prevails. Keep your heads high and be proud.
-A proud Canadian atheist
As a Canadian myself, I would not wish socialism upon anyone. Vote Libertarian!
@Don
Thanks for your encouragement.
Peace...
Socialism? Do you know what that means? I am a conservative and voting for Obama because his policies are conservative. Affordable Care was Bob Dole's idea in the '90's. Raising tax revenue is a conservative to battle growing debt is a conservative idea...I just wish Republicans were fiscally conservative, not just socially
>>>" I am a conservative and voting for Obama because his policies are conservative."
Yeah, his ability to wage drone strikes wars and give a dead body count of terrorist, should be enough to even have Toby Keith singing a country song for him. 🙂
@ Don:
As of Mid–2009, approximately 55% of the world's population considered themselves adherents of the Abrahamic religions, about 30% adhered to other religions, while atheists, agnostics, and other secularists totaled15%.
Outside this blog, those who share your opinion are certainly in the minority...and I'd make book on the bet that's a statement that won't change within our lifetime.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1581715/Religion-Year-In-Review-2009/286515/Social-Trends
@Chick-a-dee
True... not in our lifetime.
However... the numbers of agnostic/atheists, etc... *are* growing.
Who knows what those numbers will be, *especially* as our scientific understanding of the universe is increasing daily.
Peace...
@ therealpeace2all:
It's good to see you here again. I enjoy sharing thoughts with you.
You do realize that there is a significant difference between the way Catholics embrace science and the way some of the sola scriptura denominations view science....don't you?
Catholics do not have a problem with science or accepting scientific discovery as fact. We may take issue with whether or not a particular discovery may be a moral choice, but that does not mean that the fact is rejected. Further, Catholics (who not coincidentally compiled the bible) have never held that holy scripture is literal or is to be used as either historical text or scientific fact.
"The search for truth is the task of basic science. The researcher who moves on this first aspect of sciences, feels all the fascination of St. Augustine's words: "Intellectum valde ama" (Epist. 120, 3, 13; PL 33, 459), "he loves intelligence" and the function that is characteristic of it, to know truth. Pure science is a good, which all people must be able to cultivate in full freedom from all form of international slavery or intellectual colonialism.
Basic research must be free with regard to political and economic authorities, which must cooperate in its development, without hampering it in its creativity or harnessing it to serve their own purposes. Like any other truth, scientific truth is, in fact, answerable only to itself and to the supreme Truth, God, the creator of man and of all things."
On the Centenary of the Birth of Albert Einstein
Pope John Paul II
(Discourse of His Holiness Pope John Paul II given on 10th November 1979 at the Plenary Academic Session to commemorate the centenary of the birth of Albert Einstein)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ALEIN.HTM
I'm Atheist and I'm Republican, what's the big deal?
African American and Republican here. Another thing that the extremist do not believe that a person can be. 🙂
wow how can it be? an atheist and a black man- women that is a republican. Could it be that policy, not speeches of some kind of undefined hope can be more persuasive in making a secular decision. Although I do have some very basic problems with the dem's social agenda, if their fiscal polices made sense I would hold my nose and vote a dem ticket. Of course I would then try to influence a change in their social stuff. But at it's core it is a secular decision. I just wish the republicans would practice what they preach. Bush had some things right, but for the most part. the 8 years they(Republicans) were in control is why I identify myself as an independent.
If logic and reason really guided atheist as they say then they would be more intellectually honest with themselves if they claimed to be agnostic. You see, they require scientific fact as prove of god and the same scientific fact should be able to prove there is no god and they've have proved neither. As they make fun mainly of Christians because they don't fight back they dare to make fun of say the Muslim god. This is purely hypocritical. Also, a high atheist has no moral ground against bestiality of which their top militant leaders see nothing wrong with such as the late Christopher Hitchins and Peter Singer from Princeton University. You see these people are very sick individuals and they detest a God who transcends holiness. Just remember, Atheist in history with any power have killed millions because after all there is no moral absolute in their mind anyway.
Very well said Gary.
Ah yes, this tired old argument.
There is no doubt there have been many atheists who have carried out mass crimes against humanity. They did not do it in the name of atheism.
There is also no doubt that there have been many religious figures and groups that have carried out mass crimes against humanity. They DID do it in the name of their religion.
Albert Einstein was an atheist, and after helping to discover the secret to unlocking the atom, later regretted his part because of the devastation caused by the atomic bomb. He obviously had a sense of morality. Your over-generalization is absurd. You think you can discredit scientists and academics by connecting atheism with a couple of sheep-bangers? There is as much proof that God exists as there is that mother goose does...old stories.
Very well said, Gary, if your goal was to say misleading and misinformed things.
I agree Don, atheist never did all their crimes in the name of God, but they sure did it in the name of Science, so what's the difference?
We are all atheists. I just believe in one less god than you. When you can tell why you do not believe in all the other gods, you will understand why I don't believe in yours.
Gary, you have no idea what you are talking about. Please refer to the 7 point scale of atheism from Dawkins. In addition, your morality claim is a failed argument.
@Demi: Surely you must be joking.
Cite specific examples.
Also, please never see a doctor. God can take care of you, leave science to us atheists.
Demi says Stalin's political corruption was conducted in the name of science. Demi is making me laugh so hard right now.
Theodosius it was hypocritical of you since you atheists believe in no Gods, unless you believe in demons and don't admit it.
You know what guys, you're right. What was I thinking? Religion is silly. I just always liked Disney movies, and I thought if I really believed in them, then they would come true. Oh well...
Don i can't believe you're so ignorant. Scientists invented weapons and they are used by atheists sociopaths to kill people in wars and else. Don't come back and telling me that the leaders of countries used them in the name of God. Those countries leaders are hypocrites and have no belief in God, they only use this term to fool the believers to have their support. If you really don't know this then you atheism is not too educative.
I say people dont actually kill in the name of religion, but yet people blow themselves up to kill others in the name of religion every day. I guess I'm just stupid.
Yes they do and they do it by using explosives invented by scientists.
Science = Rigorous experimentation leads to resulting data for interpretations, peer reviews, and conclusions (often multiple). A basic tenet of all science is fallibility. Any or all parts or could be entirely wrong, but more and more data is collected so that, over many experiments and time refinements, we arrive at the answer(s) best supported by our information. A scientist proposing an idea must admit that it's entirely possible that the idea is wrong. Pretty straight forward.
Religion = Starting conclusion requires selectively choosing data to support the original conclusion-interpretation. This may or may not be supported by the preponderance of evidence. Answers are considered infallible and there is only one answer to each question.
No one sees a problem with one of these two things leading public policy or being the focus of rational debates?
I've heard numerous atheists say something to the effect of, "It's entirely possible that god exists, but I don't believe there is one" I've never heard a religious person say something to the effect of, "It's entirely possible that no god exists, but I believe there is one."
Gbus you sound like Stephen Hawking.
Well said as an ignorant rejection of reason. There is and NEVER will be proof that your cosmic Kim Jong Il exists and for eons religious people have been killing innocents. Your arguements carry NO weight or credence and are typical of the blind faith put in a book of fairy tales. You wouldn't have stood a chance in your god's hell of standing toe to toe with Hitchens for even 60 seconds with the unfounded drivel that you believe in!
GBus...big words...it's not going to fly in this forum, ya hear me now?
Do you believe in dinosaurs?
Why?
Do you believe in unicorns?
Why not?
It's not what you believe; it's why you believe it.
pls tell me you are not that stupid
I am a:
gun owner
hunter
midwesterner
conservationist
mild-redneck
pro-choice
pro-capital punishment
atheist
scientist
Where are my people?
@GBus
LOL ! 😀 We'll take you on our Democratic team.
Peace...
I am a conservative that believes in science and data. Where are mine?
Gbus, Check, check, check, ... I am all of your bullet points and claim to be independent. However, with our view point Obama is the best match period. If we had a party to rep. out beliefs to go with the current left and right only views, maybe we could get something done.
Good fern at your service, GBus.
2nd year med student with a taste for caribou, swordfish, elk, and the occasional bighorn. I love civil liberties, and I don't like these high taxes when so much of it is wasted.
LMAO! I need to punch your attributes into the dating service site here and see what I come up with – I like the mild-redneck part. Have you traveled much?
Fern, considering your grammatical incompetence and childish rants, I sincerely hope your career is limited to cleaning bed pans, because you don't have the intellect or humanity to be a doctor or nurse.
I totally retract that, Fern! I mixed you up with Demi. My sincere apologies. My best wishes for your career.
Im typing on an ipad, moron. And youll criticize my "intellect"? Do you too believe in invisible sky wisards? I hope thats your real name, and I get a crack at you one day. Im gunning for neurology or neurosurgery. Better take your vitamins and go for your yearlies, sweety pie. Id love to give you a tumor resection.
Well in that case I too retract my pithy coneback. No worries good man! 🙂
A vast majority of Christians want to see the current form of government in America change into a Christian Theocracy.
A theocracy is one of the worst forms of government a nation can have; sadly only a small percentage of people see this.
Mike, do not worry about Christians wanting a Theocracy. The day you wake up and see all of us agreeing on a single denomination or interpretation of the text...then you can worry.
@Mark From Middle River
" The day you wake up and see all of us agreeing on a single denomination or interpretation of the text...then you can worry. "
Hey buddy, I'm curious... hmm... how close are you guys nowadays on agreeing ? 😀
That day 'might' come actually... and then we will worry.
Hope that you are well.
Peace...
How close are we.... ever order a few pizzas and getting everyone to agree on the toppings? See, while we all agree we want pizza, we all have different views on what makes a good pizza. 🙂
@Mark
LOL ! 😀 Point taken.
Cheers !
Peace...
@ Mark & therealpeace:
http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations
Click the orange arrows to expand a section and view its components.
@Chick-a-dee
What are you trying to do, kill me ? 😯 My head almost exploded as I was looking at all of those xtian denominations.
So... the point is we don't need to worry about a xtian 'theocracy' anytime soon ?
Peace...
@ therealpeace2all:
Oh no! =:-o Don't explode! Your head is one of the few thinking and cool ones on this discussion board.
I did have a chuckle at your post. Now you know how I feel when I read some of the posts here. A while back, someone made a post that questioned why christians don't answer direct questions from the atheists with bible citations....my eyes crossed and my head started spinning like Linda Blair's. Good grief!
Atheists are the only ones who've got their facts straight. I hope to see the percentage of voting nonbelievers in America to rise well above a lousy 16%. Come on people, wake up.
The old goats are dying off, and the only young christians out there are the people too dumb to get into college. Dont worry. We will all accept logic eventually.
Atheist are the only ones who have their fact straight? Wait a minute, every single day we hear your science saying " Oh we have proof of this or that" and then 3 months later you find out you were wrong and then you come out with something new and then wrong again. And you have the gut to tell us that you have your fact straight?
Demi believes in invisible sky wizards but is bad-mouthing the scientific community. So funny...
Atheist are based on science, and science is based on theories and speculations, in which there is nothing concrete. It's not a solid foundation.
Demi says science isn't concrete while believing, and arguing for, magic stories passed on orally for hundreds of years before being written down and translated hundreds of times by people who held vested interest in what the stories said.
Demi. Have you ever sought the advice or attentions of a doctor?
I'm just sayin...
I don't need a head check lol, but i don't smoke mothballs either and saying i'm a proud atheist, because i'm not.
Demi obviously smokes mothballs. It all makes sense now.
Hmmm... some theists are excellent at twisting words and playing with context to make a weak point. It sounds like you're saying "Christians are right because we KNOW the TRUTH, and it never waivers! You stupid atheists' science is always wrong!!! Nanny nanny boo-boo!!" I think if you had an actual face-to-face rational conversation with a non-believer, you would find that change is one of the most intriguing things about science.
Science in general has NEVER claimed to be all-knowing and all-seeing... Quite the contrary. The scientific mind asks QUESTIONS. Questions lead to experiment, and learning, and intelligence. That is what non-believers revere. Knowledge is a quest, not a destination. The Christian TRUTH cannot be proven, and the questions lead to more discussion and more knowledge. THe problem is, with religion, the questions eventually lead nowhere.
Good point BigDaddy. I might go back and actually finish 4th grade and then become a scientist. It sounds pretty interesting.
Demi please research the process of going from scientific theory to scientific law. The illiterate of the 21st century are not those who cannot read but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and re-learn new principles.
Religion had its chance, it was called the dark ages. It hindered scientific progress exponentially. I hate to sound rude but the level of intellect in your posts leaves much to be desired.
I agree with some of the others posting. This is not the time or place to fight this battle. We need to focus on the current battle to keep Obama in office. The thought of the future my children would have in Romney world is unthinkable. We can deal with the battle of common sense verses a beleif in century old stories about mythical beings for a later date.
Mike, be truthful... the world will not end if/when Rom is elected. Same as the world did not end when Obama is elected. Think about it, a guy that was elected on a promise of "Change" kept things basically the same. He even kept a few key GW Bush people in place.
We might as well continue with the talk of Faith and Non-Faith, unless you actually feel that things will ever change in Washington DC.
I mean, you do remember that Michele Obama found out that Barack's distant cousin is Cheney? So, you really think that "change" had snowballs chance?
Agree Mark. These politics are a game for insects. It's fixed, it's bought and paid for, and the campaigns are just sideshows to make us think we have a say.
Mark, I agree with a lot of what you say. Washington in general is what it is. However, the proposals Romney and the current class of republicans what to enact are extremely damaging to our future. The whole cocept of giving tax credits to the wealthy to grow the economy is rediculous. By definition, if they are weathly, they already have money to hire people if they need them or spend money on items to boost the economy. Giving them a few more dollars will help nothing. Not to mention reducions in education spending, reducing government oversight into big business, reducing environmental regulations, etc.... Rommey is the opposite direction from common sense on almost every issue.
If you ever want a good look at American politics go to a foreign country, preferably one without a lot of funding or specific political ties. I read a Polish newspaper outlining the McCain-Obama views/plans on issues. Each column was essentially the same. The sad truth is that there isn't much difference between the two large oligarchical entrenched well-funded parties. Most people probably would never have noticed a difference if McCain had been elected and we probably won't really notice much difference (except for being told by different sides) no matter who wins the election. No matter who wins, you're getting a politician.... a person that has devoted a substantial amount of life to climbing the political ladder, doing what gets votes, and making politics a lifestyle. I've never felt like I "won" a presidential election even when I voted for the person in office.
And Mike , Obama and our government bailed out Wall Street. The same 1%, except for Madoff, were mostly spared their financial judgement day.
Mike, no matter who wins, the ones that put them there....and I am not talking about Little mister and miss Main street who send both Rom and Oba a few hundred dollars...I am talking about the big business players will have the last say in the financial world or aspect of our society.
Last election I did not vote and this one I am moving towards taking my fishing rods out and once again going fishing all day. When I get back from the lake the price of gas will be the same no matter who wins. My mortgage is not going to drop. Where the troops are they will still be. Oba had two years with a veto proof Congress, did the Gays and Lesbians get the right to marry, nope. Maybe at lame duck status, with nothing to lose Oba will push for the changes but I doubt it.
Atheist declare that they use reason. Think about it, you have two guys that both wanted universal Health Care. Evaluate everything and tell me what is the true motivation to change anything in DC.
Atheists, you're wrong on God, and wrong on the direction of this country. I defend your right to say what you do, but I don't agree with it. What I believe is that if the situation were reversed, and Christians were the minority, you would tell us to take a long walk off of a short pier. Here though in a Christian majority country you think that we should remove all trace of Christianity from the public square. Interesting how that works, isn't it? What we say is that we love you, and we hope you come to know the Lord Jesus Christ. You're free to live your life as if God doesn't exist; that's one of the benefits of living in this country that was founded on Christian values. What you're not free to do is dictate to the Christian majority that we are not allowed to talk about God, acknowledge God in our public square, or otherwise be free to express our religious freedoms. You live in the house that Christianity built, and we're not going to redecorate it because you decided to move in and be a bad roommate.
Actually, America was founded by profiteers and those seeking religious freedom, you can worship imaginary things all you want, just keep it out of Government.
If the Church wants to be part of Government so badly, how about churches start paying taxes?
If I had my way, I'd feed christians to the lions. Rome had it right. No one should be so proud to ignirant hypocrites.
The earth is 10000 years old. Man lived with dinosaurs. A man lived for 3 days inside a whale. Noah had 2 of every animal, and his family though incest repopulated the planet in 3000 years... Even the other continents whose cultures are older and never mention any of it....
You need shock therapy.
If atheism is the right thing why don't you have a church of your own? Or is it some kind of sect?
You are conflating "public square". We want it out of gov't, but I will fight for your right to walk down Main St. with a sandwich board that says "The End Is Nigh!".
The first amendment of the Constitution says that religion has no place in the political sphere. The "equal protections" clause denies you dominance.
Nobody said you cannot talk about God – that is just another Christian lie. You are not allowed to make government obey your religion. You are not allowed to demand non-believers obey your religious angles. And some of the things you are calling "religious freedoms" are actually intrusions on other peoples' Constitutional rights – you can claim that killing women proven not to be virgins is your religious right as well (that's in the Bible), but too bad, that's just an atrocity pretending to be a right (just like your oppression of gays, and blacks before them, and women, and on and on).
Get off your self-righteous high horse and remember that we are Americans, and we are not letting you diminish our rights by claiming every psychotic religious delusion is somehow a right.
@Josh
I'm curious how you get there(that this is a Christian Nation, founders were Christian, etc...) ?
I could be wrong, but as far as I know, nowhere in our *consti tution* does it mention – Bible, God, Jesus, Christ, Savior, etc...
Seems to me, that would be a pretty darn important thing to put in there if this was founded to be a Christian nation, yes ?
Peace...
Thank you for finally pointing that out. So many people seem to disregard Christian rights and moral values. Especially the HHS mandate that was recently passed. No one has any right once so ever to take away what our founding fathers set this country on. USA was made on the foundation of Christianity look at how much better it was then compared to now. There were no abortions, or as much evil and moral decay as their is now. We are all going to suffer for this if something is not done immediately.
Don't mind me. My daddy bear let me out of my cage for tonight only, and I just love to mix it up with new people online!
Atheist people, nobody want to listen to what you have to say, you only have been around for the past 200 years or so. No one cares about your so called "We Atheist Know Everything" don't you get it?
Josh, how do you know we are wrong. Is it your "faith". Is it your beleif in centuries old stories meant to provide direction to people and expain the world around them. While many of the moral teachings of the churches are great, we don't need stories about mythical beings to make us follow them. We now have something called science to explain the world around us.
@Blessed Are the Cheesmakers
" We want it out of gov't, but I will fight for your right to walk down Main St. with a sandwich board that says "The End Is Nigh!". "
Funny(Last part of your sentence)... but, true ! 😀
Peace...
Demi believes in the newest major religion yet mocks newer acceptances... And the notion that no one supported atheism until 200 years ago marks you for the ignorant sheep you are.
Your country was not founded on Christian principles. The founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Through the Cold War, when it was fashionable to differ yourselves from the Soviet Union, political leadership on both sides of the aisle crafted an alternate history where America suddenly became a "Christian nation".
It still amuses me that most Americans don't even realize that "under God" was only added in 1954 to the Pledge of Allegiance.
Please get your facts straight.
-A Canadian
Nice grammar, Demi!
Krischuns is schmartys!
>>>"If I had my way, I'd feed Christians to the lions."
Wow, so you carry the same reasoning of the Taliban to those who do not accept Islam. Its so interesting to listen to those on the extremes, they all tend to use the same language.
@Don
" Your country was not founded on Christian principles. The founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Through the Cold War, when it was fashionable to differ yourselves from the Soviet Union, political leadership on both sides of the aisle crafted an alternate history where America suddenly became a "Christian nation".
It still amuses me that most Americans don't even realize that "under God" was only added in 1954 to the Pledge of Allegiance."
It's not that a lot of the christians don't know it... it's that they would rather put their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and stomp their feet and be in denial. It's a shame, really.
Peace...
I know that this country has always had a large Christian population. And I would never want to hinder Christians' rights to speak and gather and celebrate in the ways that our laws permit them to. Because we all cherish those rights.
But I don't hold your view that this land is the "house that Christianity built." Sure the founders were Christian. But they knew collectively that it was important to separate church and state – they knew how important that was in securing a lasting democracy that would champion freedom as its highest ideal, not any religion.
So I'll say again what I've said before here earlier, and that is this. Just because you see that values in Consti'tution align with your religious values, does not mean that people outside of your religion do not share some or all of those same values. It would be pretty pompous and presumptuous if you think that. So that's why I'm sure many, myself included, find it truly arrogant and ignorant for someone to say that this country was founded on Christian values. It shows arrogance, ignorance and often exposes someone who slept through high school government class.
@ Truth:
Actually, the Church does pay taxes. I had a conversation just this past week with a friend who is a priest. He told me that the priests pay income tax on their salaries & stipends (or retirement income if they are elderly) and the parishes pay income tax on 1099s generated from the donations.
@Chick-a-dee
As I understand it... Income that comes directly from their(Churches) main purpose of operation is *not* taxable at the federal, state or local level. So contributions from members are *not* taxable. Yes, I do believe however Pastors/Priests, etc... do pay taxes on their salaries.
Peace...
@ Labrador George:
Actually, the first amendment of the Consti.tution DOES NOT say that religion has no place in the political sphere.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to peti.tion the Government for a redress of grievances."
Based on the history of western Europe, especially England, the founders wished to avoid the same wars between protestants and Catholics. The amendment means that the government may not choose a state religion...and I think its safe to assume that none of the early patriots were concerned about the government possibly choosing one of the non-christian religions because none of them were significantly present in the colonies. Further, it states that the government may not prohibit the exercise of religion...although there are fellow citizens, some of whom are quite vocal on this blog, who apparently would like to do just that. Finally, we each have both the right to express our opinions and to vote based on them. One's religion plays a significant role in forming one's opinions. More than 75% of the American population self identifies as either Catholic or one of the protestant christian denominations. It is not surprising that Judeo-Christian beliefs are reflected in the voting patterns of both the legislative branch and the population.
@ therealpeace2all:
Honestly, I never had the desire to sit in on one of the Finance Council meetings...and being a member of the council seems like is would be punishment... the info I got was 2nd hand. We don't have state or local income tax in TX so only federal would apply. I'll have to make a note to myself to see if I can find anything on the IRS site that would be a definitive answer.
@ therealpeace2all:
While the majority of its transactions are except, it does seem as if the IRS has quite a few opportunities for churches to pay taxes. Individual states, counites & municipalities each have their own regulations and exemptions so who knows how many other ent.ities get a piece of the pie. Don't forget, they also pay "fees" (which are taxes by another name) on vehicles owned by the church – registration, vehicle inspections- as well as tolls for transportation, gasoline tax imbedded into the price of each gallon, trash collection and recycling "fees".... I trust you get the idea on the multi.tude of opportunities that tax exempt organizations contribute to the various treasuries.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
Churches and religious organizations, like many other
charitable organizations, qualify for exemption from
federal income tax under IRC section 501(c)(3) and
are generally eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions.
To qualify for tax-exempt status, such an
organization must meet the following requirements
(covered in greater detail throughout this publication):
■ the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,
■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,
■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and
■ the organization’s purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.
nformation and Tax Returns — Forms to File and Due Dates
Churches and religious organizations may be required to report certain payments or information to the IRS. The
following is a list of the most frequently required returns, who should use them, how they are used, and when they
should be filed.
22
Filing Requirements
Returns Who Should Use Them How They are Used When to File
Form W-2
Wage and Tax Statement
Form W-3
Transmittal of Wage
and Tax Statement
Organizations with employees. Furnish each employee with a
completed Form W-2 by January
31; and file all Forms W-2 and
Form W-3 with the Social Security
Administration (SSA) by the
last day of February.
Form W-2G
Certain Gaming Winnings
For more information on reporting
requirements for gaming activities, see IRS
Publication 3079, Gaming Publication for
Tax-Exempt Organizations.
Any charitable or religious
organization, including a church,
that sponsors a gaming event (raffles,
bingo) must file Form W-2G when
a participant wins a prize over
a specific value amount.
The requirements for reporting and
withholding depend on the type of
gaming, the amount of winnings, and
the ratio of winnings to the wager.
For each winner meeting the
filing requirement, the church
or religious organization must furnish
Form W-2G by January 31; and file
Copy A of Form W-2G with the IRS
by February 28.
Form 941
Employer’s Quarterly
Federal Tax Return
or
Form 944
Employer’s Annual Federal Tax
Return
Small employers that have been
notified by the IRS to file Form 944
(see form instructions) may use that
form; other employers required to
file must use Form 941.
Use Form 941 or 944 to report
Social Security and Medicare taxes
and income taxes withheld by the
organization, and Social Security
and Medicare taxes paid by the
organization.
See form instructions for due dates.
Form 945
Annual Return of
Withheld Federal
Income Tax
If a church or religious organization
withholds income tax, including
backup withholding, from nonpayroll
payments, it must file Form
945.
File Form 945 by January 31. This
form is not required for those years
in which there is no non-payroll tax
liability.
Form 990
Return of Organization
Exempt from Income Tax
Form 990-EZ
Short Form Return of
Organization Exempt
From Income Tax
Form 990-N (electronic
postcard), Electronic Notice
for Tax Exempt Organizations
Not Required to File Form 990
or 990-EZ.
Generally, all religious organizations
(see exceptions to file Form 990
below) must file Form 990, Form
990-EZ or Form 990-N.
For tax years 2008 through 2010, the
thresholds for determining whether
an organization should file Form 990,
990-EZ or 990-N will vary. See www.
irs.gov/eo for the specific thresholds.
Form 990, 990-EZ or 990-N must be
filed on or before the 15th day of the
5th month following the end of the
organization’s tax year.
Form 990-N must be electronically
filed.
Exceptions to file Form 990, 990-EZ and 990-N
The following is a list of some of the organizations that are not required to file Form 990,
990-EZ or 990-N.
■ Churches (as opposed to “religious organizations,” defined earlier)
■ Inter-church organizations of local units of a church
■ Mission societies sponsored by or affiliated with one or more churches or church
denomination, if more than half of the activities are conducted in, or directed at, persons
in foreign countries
■ An exclusively religious activity of any religious order
See the form instructions for a list of other organizations that are not required to file.
23
Returns Who Should Use Them How They are Used When to File
Form 990-T
Exempt Organization Business
Income Tax Return
For more information on unrelated
business income, see Unrelated Business
Income Tax (UBIT) on page 16.
Churches and religious
organizations.
Churches and religious organizations
must file Form 990-T if they
generate gross income from an
unrelated business of $1,000 or more
for a taxable year.
Form 990-T must be filed by the
15th day of the 5th month after the
organization’s accounting period
ends (May 15 for a calendar year
accounting period).
Form 990-W
Estimated Tax on Unrelated
Business Taxable Income for
Tax-Exempt Organizations
Churches and religious
organizations.
If the tax on unrelated business
income is expected to be $500
or more, the church or religious
organization must make estimated
tax payments.
Use Form 990-W to compute the
estimated tax liability.
Form 1096
Annual Summary and
Transmittal of U.S.
Information Returns
Churches and religious
organizations.
Use Form 1096 to transmit Forms
1099-MISC, W-2G, and certain other
forms to the IRS.
Form 1096 must be filed by
February 28 in the year following the
calendar year in which the payments
were made.
Form 1099 – MISC
Miscellaneous Income
See the Instructions for
Form 1099-MISC for details.
Churches and religious
organizations.
A church or religious organization
must use Form 1099-MISC if it pays
an unincorporated individual or enti.ty
$600 or more in any calendar year
for one of the following payments:
gross rents; commissions, fees, or
other compensation paid to nonemployees;
prizes and awards; or
other fixed and determinable income.
Churches or religious organizations
must furnish each payee with a copy
of Form 1099-MISC by January 31;
and file Copy A of Form 1099-MISC
with the IRS by February 28.
Form 5578
Annual Certification of
Racial Nondiscrimination
for a Private School Exempt
from Federal Income Tax
For information on racial and ethnic
nondiscriminatory policies, see Revenue
Procedure 75-50, 1975-2 C.B. 587 at www.
irs.gov.
A church or religious organization
that operates a private school,
whether separately incorporated
or operated as part of its overall
operations, that teaches secular
subjects and generally complies with
state law requirements for public
education.
A church or religious organization
must file Form 5578 to certify that
it does not discriminate based on
race or ethnic origin.
Form 5578 must be filed on or
before the 15th day of the 5th month
following the end of the
organization’s taxable year
(May 15 for a calendar year).
If an organization files Form 990 or
Form 990-EZ, the
certification must be made
on Schedule A (Form 990 or
Form 990-EZ).
Note: It is not considered racially discriminatory for a parochial school to select
students on the basis of membership in a religious denomination if membership in the
denomination is open to all on a racially nondiscriminatory basis. Further, a seminary,
or other purely religious school, that primarily teaches religious subjects usually
with the purpose of training students for the ministry, is not subject to the racially
nondiscriminatory requirements because it is considered to be a religious rather than an
educational organization.
Form 8282
Donee Information Return
Churches and religious
organizations.
A church or religious organization
must file Form 8282 if it sells,
exchanges, transfers, or otherwise
disposes of certain non-cash donated
property within three years of
the date it originally received the
donation. This applies to non-cash
property that had an appraised
value of more than $5,000 at time of
donation.
The church or religious organization
must file Form 8282 with the IRS
within 125 days of date of disposition
of the property; and furnish the
original donor with a copy of the
form.
Treasury Form 90.22.1,
Report of Foreign Bank and
Financial Accounts
See form instructions See form instructions See form instructions
So if a god says he loves you, but he condemns you to hell because you were born to a muslim family, then does he really love you?
Fern you are using my name, to post your Atheist views about religion, is that what being atheist is? You don't have strong convictions if all you can do is using other people names.
And you're humiliating me by using my name. I'm crying right now, and my mommy says stop it!
He loves having billions of people for his eternal concentration camp!
Keep on using my name posting stupid comments, it only shows what your atheist science teaches you. And now you want us to listen to your atheist sciences to supposedly have the answers to where we come from and why we're here?
And sorry I keep whining. I just cant help myself!
Fern the atheist one, you have such an immature state of mind.
First of all it is entirely not the child's fault. But if they take it to such height as extremist then that is a problem. He loves and will always love everyone, Even those who continue to turn away. He's there waiting for us all to come home. You just keep turning away.
Fern,
I notice you keep saying "your science". I see that you are stupid, so I will use simple words...it is everyone's science. It is reality. You can deny facts and truths all you want, but 2+2 is always 4.
First of all it is entirely not the child's fault. But if they take it to such height as extremist then that is a problem. He loves and will always love everyone, Even those who continue to turn away. He's there waiting for us all to come home. You just keep turning away.
Demi the adult believes in fairy tales but says Fern the atheist is immature.
I said nothing about extremism. If a peaceful follower of another religion dies, then they burn forever. Is that what you call love?
Religion is for the weak and weak-minded. Science is the only key to enlightenment. Morality is a human concept, and not "given" to us by "God"
Thanis your take. It's a lie though.
George Washington knew better... From his farewell address.
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?
And you science tells us how we happened to be here with solid proof? Poor atheist, you and poor science full of speculations with no solid proof and evidence.
Amen
Counter, so where was Washington and his moral authority regarding slave ownership? Oh wait, the Bible sanctions the owning of slaves.
My statement is a lie because George Washington believed in God 200 years ago...good argument. Explain to me how the Earth is billions of years old, yet God created it in seven days, less tan 15,000 years ago
Yeah! Your science doesn't have proof of how we got here, but a 4000 year old fairy tale that belies the fossil record must be true. Sad, sad scientist. Making your potions and periodic tables of elements while we party on Christmas! Put that in your beaker and test it! The bible is all true, and Stephen Hawking is a dumb dumb-head! Me and Jesus are tight and that's why I waste this life hoping for the next.
@Fern,
No solid proof? How about evolution? You're the one preaching about a magic man who lives in space and created everything. Where are your facts?
counter – we forgive the founders of this country many foibles because of the fine job they did germinating our secular society. we don't hold their slaveowning, their religion, their discrimination against women. it was simply a part of the time that they lived.
The bible didn't sanction slavery but only advised slaves and slave owners how to behave, and the people these remarks were addressing practiced slavery quite differently than early Americans.
To all those calling atheists whiners and cry babies, um, it was theists that made a stink because the word "god" was removed. The posts that whined on and on about how they wouldn't vote for Obama now because they might not include the word god were plentiful. The billboards were not placed because of physical threats. I think if you want to chastise anyone, it should be your fellow theists that are intolerant.
To my fellow atheists, this isn't the time or place to fight this battle. We need politicians who are respectful of nonbelievers, and it sure as heck isn't Romney. And, as I always say, it isn't atheists that convert the theists, despite their rabid protestations that we do. It's theists that make atheists, with their hatred, intolerance, hypocrisy, and denial of the observable world. Our numbers are growing, and with frothing politicians and theists, it's a bull market.
Actually Susie, nobody actually changes their opinions here. This isn't a battleground as a fight club. Just for the fun of it. Both sides are just blowing off steam at each other, with no winners, no losers, and no casualties.
Nobody changes their opinion here.
What is important for the Democrats and Republicans are the major issues like the economy and national debt. My father is an atheist and I am not. But we agree that this country was founded with the belief of God and it is a fundamental element of this country. A major reason America was founded was so that the people could have freedom of religion. It is part of America's heritage and too important to ignore.
Explain what you mean about America being founded with the belief in God. I think you must be misrepresenting your father's real views, and misunderstanding how America REALLY came about.
america was founded for liberty, knowing well the oppression that befalls humanity when religion is ensconced in government.
@McIver3
Also, freedom 'from' religion... to practice your own particular faith, or not in any way you deem fit.
Nowhere in our consti tution does it mention – Bible, God, Jesus, Savior, etc...
Peace...
Christianity had a strong influence on many of the founding fathers would be an accurate statement. But this nation was not founded on Christianity or any other religion.
Democrats represent everyone; be they of whatever faith or of no religious persuasion at all. The point is they protect your freedom to choose.
Democrats aren't your problem, republicans are.
And to this, I'd add – I'm an atheist too.
I agree and I'm Catholic. The Republicans are a majority of over-religious zealots that shouldn't throw so much belief into there politics. I feel bad that the DNC got the heat for adding God into there speeches. I mean if there's an atheist politician, we're not going to cry if he left god out of his speech. Why not let those politicians that have beliefs add what they believe into there speeches within reason?
Democrats are teh lesser evil, but they haven't aspired to any better than that.
Guantanamo is still open. American soldiers are still dying in Afghanistan for no gain to our country. The war criminals of the Bush years are off scott-free. Most of the worst aspects of the Patriot Act still are in force. Indefinite detention is still in practice. Spending is insane (every bit as bad as the debt-skyrocketing W. and Reagan years).
The lesser of two evils is still an evil.
Christians are the problem. They get everything their way or else! Atheists are treated like the wacko fringe where as they are the rational core. Tired of hearing that Christianity is being threatened while Atheist are always under attack. Christians are insecure and take it out on Atheist. We need a party for all the sane people since Atheist will continue to be marginalized. We are told we have to vote Democratic because the Republicans are worse. Where's the choice in that!
I've read comments from atheist people on these comment boards and to be honest with you, they all sound like cry babies. Maybe they were held to their milk bottle for too long. Grow up atheist and face the fact, you don't have a single clue were we come from and you don't have an answer to that question either, now that you know this all you need to do is to stop crying all over the place at people who are believers on every comment boards. You only make yourselves look more childish.
Hold on; I'll be right back. Mommy is yelling at me to take out the trash and finish my girl scout project.
Exactly what i was saying, an atheist took my name and posted a childish reply. Grow up atheist people.
So Fern, phrases like "cry babies" and "held to their milk bottle for too long", those sound like mature, rational, intelligent utterances to you?
Because they sound very childish to me, as does your whole ad hominem rant. Indeed, being very childish while you accuse other of being childish . . yeah, just another example of a hypocritical Christian.
Thanks for doing unto others as you would have others do unto you, and judging not, and all those other Christian values.
Did African-Americans look like crybabies to you when they asked for equal rights? "Wah, wah, crybabies, shut up and go to the back of the bus!"
How about gays? "Wah, wah, shut, h0m0s!"
Or women, who also want equal rights? "Wah, wah, dumb women, stop acting like little babies because you want to have a say in your own reproductive decisions!"
I want to come out to the world. I am a proud and gay democrat. I just can't hide it any longer. I cannot live this lie for another second.
Typical arrogant response from Atheist people. lol
Fern,
You don't either but you pretend like you do. How humble. It's like your a child who thinks you are smarter than the neighbor kid because you KNOW your presents come from Santa.
You're right cheesemaker. I should probably shut my mouth now. I'm embarrassing myself as a man. Plus, my hubby's drawing me a bath, and he hates to be kept waiting.
Fern faceplanted. Got caught as a major hypocrite.
Getting mad atheist one? lol
I believe that everyone should have the rights to believe and non believe. I respect that atheists dont believe, but it seems a bit childish all in all. Its childish to feel left out because a non-believer wasn't selected to speak specifically for them at a convention. Its also a matter of our country having been one built on beliefs and values that are from these religions (an explanation as to why there were preachers and rabbi's).
First off I want to question the atheists that try so hard to belittle or change religious views and argue/deny god(s) existence with those that believe. You become like those religious zealots that try to get everyone to convert and believe and it makes you just as bad. I'm Roman Catholic and while I believe, I personally don't push my beliefs on others. But all too often I'll find friends or others that I come across that are so hostile towards your beliefs that it just leaves you feel terrible. I'm not saying that having no belief is wrong, but when you obsess over it... it makes me question why you want to tear down what for some, is a source for hope in there lives.
Face the facts. This nation was founded by Christians and while we have distanced State and Church, it was so that people could have the freedom to believe or not believe as they wish without persecution as our founding fathers and there ancestors had faced.
To me I have to feel like I'm on "guard" with my beliefs around atheist friends and atheists period. Its sort of like someone having a deformity and trying not to stare at it. It makes me uncomfortable. All I want is the right to believe in what I believe in. Stop trying to change whats guided this country for so long, when it graciously gave everyone the right to believe and not believe without persecution. If your going to preach non-belief your just as bad as the preachers that preach hell and eternal damnation for not believing. I'm tired of these (petty) issues coming up when all I want personally is everyone to respect everyone's beliefs and non-beliefs
As for speaking at a convention what does Atheism offer besides testimony and debate that no supreme beings exist. "President Obama is a good guy. God doesn't exist and had nothing to do with a christian president being elected, had nothing to do with the good in this country or your lives, it was all luck but have a nice day." see how it sounds? Id feel bad if they said something to openly denounce atheism, but that's not the case here. These atheists need to take example from those that DO respect others beliefs (I do have a few friends that know I'm Christian but dont attack me for my beliefs) while maintaining there own dis-belief. Its only fair that if other religions have to accept your for you, Atheists should respect other peoples religions and try to grow up and stop trying to nit-picking at our politicians for there beliefs.
"As for speaking at a convention what does Atheism offer besides testimony and debate that no supreme beings exist. "
I assume you're asking a question here. Among many, one answer would be that atheism offers hope for humanism: that people can be good for its own sake, not because they are afraid of going to hell if they aren't. Or, how about respect for science, the same science that provides you with medicine, with your car, or heck, with the computer that you're using right now?
So basically you are ok with them expressing religious beliefs (mainly Christian) but if anyone has an opposing view they should shut up. Your religious convictions are fine but atheists believe in nothing anyway so what do they care right?
Here is why it matters for everyone including atheists. We have leaders in gov't agencies that believe, really believe that we shouldn't worry about global warming because after Noah's flood god promised not to destroy the world. Now what if an atheist wants to stand up and say this guy is wrong and should not determine policy by the old testament, well according to you he is an atheist so he should keep his yap shut.
Read your own post back to yourself but pretend someone wrote it to you saying they get to express their belief but you should just keep yours to yourself and you MIGHT get an idea why we are angry....jackhole
While some of what you write is true and reasonable, the facts are different than you state. This nation was founded primarily by Deists who rejected the basic tenets of Christianity (particularly the divinity of Jesus), and the guiding principles of this country merely preclude GOVERNMENT persecution of belief, not personal persecution (which falls more correctly under Freedom of Speech). Being nosy, pushy and obnoxious is, unfortunately, very American - whether the offender is religious or not.
As far as how you feel around your atheist friends, I think that says more about your friends than anything else. The majority of atheists I know do not try to criticize the beliefs of other people. They don't preach. The people who I find I have to be on guard with are evangelical christians - they are so sure that their truth is correct that they see it as their moral duty to change me... My advice is to be upfront with such people and explain that you are who you are - religion included - and they can either accept you for you and be a part of your life, or they can move on. Be gentle but firm and inflexible on the subject - the ones who are really friends will come around eventually. The others you can do without.
To Blessed Are the Cheesmakers, your post is exactly what is wrong with politics today. There is no more critical thinking. You did not address the correct issue. A Nation Under God did not say that Atheists should "shut up." For someone who supposedly believes in science, you have not shown any logical thought pattern or connection here.
But if Atheists are less than 2% of the population, why do you feel you should have a say in what is best for the other 98%? Why do Atheists think that belief in science is separate from belief in religion. It is possible to have both at the same time. I have not chosen a specific religion myself. I am expressing my freedom to choose my beliefs, or not to choose, as intended by our founders.
And, by the way, there are Christians who believe in global warming and science. Why do Atheists think you own belief in science? This is not logical and puts you in the same category as a religious extremist.
Well said. Those who want to overthrown American religious expression are obsessed with it primarily for political gain (probably because the right unfairly exploits the use of faith) in the end, both are wrong. The founding fathers' brilliance was not limited to their creation of separation of church and state, but their strong assertion that special individual group interests were inherently poor for this once new nation. American religion has historically been inclusive; only post 9-11 has it escalated to a Christian vs. Islam vs. non-believers vs hyper-bloggers vs the 1% vs you get the point. America has thrived on faith – in religion, the human spirit, fairness / ideals, economic prosperity - but now we all seem to want to redefine it in our own images. Non-believers have every right that anyone else has, but your campaign is about exclusion and the denigration of believers. No Priest who prays at a convention is proselytizing, they are seeking the best in our hopes and aspirations. Stalin and Mao embraced and built their empires on non-belief, I'm sure both wouldn't afford you the right for peaceable assembly, but would be more than happy that you worship them as your earthly master. America does faith, it's inclusive and does not discriminate on those whose primary faith is themselves. I hope you can rally around a cause and at the very least, be a bright light to the Stars and Stripes. Sincerely, Sean
Lilly,
Talk about a lack of critical thinking. If a person says "I believe purple monkeys made this country great" and made worshipping the monkeys part of a political campaign, I and you and anyone else has the right to say they are "nuts". At that point purple monkeys are in "marketplace of ideas" and they are fair game. If you bring up a concept and say that that concept is the foundation of our country I am justified to respond, whither you agree with my response or not. And me responding is not intolerance. If you or anyone doesn't want their god claim responded to in a negative way, don't bring god up. You guys are always saying how you want ALL beliefs respected, but you want religious belief to have more respect.