September 12th, 2012
12:06 PM ET
Ambassador's killing shines light on Muslim sensitivities around Prophet Mohammed
By Dan Gilgoff and Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editors
(CNN) – Violence over depictions of the Prophet Mohammed may mystify many non-Muslims, but it speaks to a central tenet of Islam: that the Prophet was a man, not God, and that portraying him threatens to lead to worshiping a human instead of Allah.
“It's all rooted in the notion of idol worship,” says Akbar Ahmed, who chairs the Islamic Studies department at American University. “In Islam, the notion of God versus any depiction of God or any sacred figure is very strong."
“The Prophet himself was aware that if people saw his face portrayed by people, they would soon start worshiping him,” Ahmed says. “So he himself spoke against such images, saying ‘I’m just a man.’”
The prohibition against such portrayals was on stark display Tuesday, as mobs in Egypt and Libya attacked U.S. compounds in response to a film that vilifies the Prophet Mohammed, who founded Islam in the 7th century. The attack on the U.S. personnel in Benghazi, Libya, was orchestrated by extremists who used the protests as a diversion, U.S. sources told CNN Wednesday.
The attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi killed J. Christopher Stevens, Washington's ambassador to Libya, as well as three other Americans at the compound.
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The film that’s believed to have inspired the violence depicts the Prophet Mohammed as a child molester, womanizer and ruthless killer, going a big step beyond violating the basic Muslim prohibition against depicting the Prophet, even in a favorable light.
There are questions about who is behind the movie. Initial reports identified a supposedly Israeli-American real-estate developer named Sam Bacile, but it's unclear if that person even exists. A member of the film's production staff told CNN that the producer's name was listed as Abenob Nakoula Basseley.
In Sunni mosques, the largest branch of the faith, there are no images of people of any kind. The spaces are often decorated with verses from the Quran.
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Mohamed Magid, an imam who leads the Islamic Society of North America, says the Muslim prohibition on depicting prophets extends to Jesus and Moses, who Islam treats as prophets.
“Pictures and images are prohibited from being worshiped,” Magid says.
There have been historical instances of Muslims depicting the Prophet, says Omid Safi, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina who has studied the issue.
"We have had visual depictions of the Prophet in the form of miniatures and pictures in the Iranian context, the Turkish context, the central Asian Context,” says Safi, author of the book "Memories of Mohammed." “The one significant context where depictions of the Prophet have not been image-related has been in the Arab context.”
“As you go farther east, away from the Arabian Peninsula, you find depictions of the prophet in art,” said Johari Abdul-Malik, the imam for Dar Al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church, Virginia. He noted that images of the teachings of the prophet were sometimes used to bridge gaps in illiteracy.
But even depictions of the Prophet by Muslim artists has been a sensitive issue.
Akbar, a former Pakistani ambassador to the United Kingdom, says that Muslim artists in the 15th and 16th centuries would depict the Prophet but took pains to avoid drawing his face.
“It would be as if he was wearing a veil on his face, so the really orthodox could not object – that was the solution they found," Akbar says.
In a Muslim film called “The Messenger,” which circulated throughout the Muslim world in the 1970s and 1980s, the Prophet is depicted only as a shadow.
Adbul-Malik said that in the Quran, there is “no statement from the prophet requesting his image not be recorded.” The passages relating to a ban on creating images of the prophets come from the hadith, recordings of the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed and his closest companions. The hadith is not viewed on the same plane as the Quran but as important to understanding the Quran.
Scholars of religion say Muslim opposition to portraying Mohammed wasn’t generally violated in earlier centuries because of a gulf between much of the Muslim world and the West.
In the age of globalization, non-Muslims and critics of Islam have felt free to depict Mohammed, including in offensive ways.
In 2006, a Danish cartoonist’s depiction of the Prophet wearing a bomb as a turban with a lit fuse provoked demonstrations across the world.
Akbar says that until relatively recently, depictions of Jesus tended to be reverential, but Christianity has had a decades-long head start in dealing with negative portrayals of Jesus in film and art.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
Their beliefs and our beliefs are in conflict and always will be. We will not change and they will not change. Realize it and stop trying to negotiate with people who do not share Western values...quite the opposite, they will kill you for it.
who used the nuclear bomb that killed thousands of people instantly? stop it you death thirsty person
I wish I could draw people moving their bowels and name 1 piece of residue allah and the other one mohammed
Islam is really a baby religion. It hasn't had the time to evolve into a more socially acceptable format. Many of it followers are still Stone Agers and haven't yet had time to understand not all of the Koran is to be taken literally. Christianity had to go through much of the same turmoil with religious zealotry. Remember the Inquisition, The Crusades, the Salem (and most of Europe) witch trials. We still experience the zealotry today. Look at the positions put forth by the GOP. Many are strictly based on very fundamental religious beliefs. This radicalism will persist for quite some time on both sides.
For those that say Muslims never condemn this type of violence, which personally as a Muslim I do. You can be disgusted with the film as I am by that sick moron who made it but no need to kill people.
Shakira, those idiots that are killing people are giving rest of the muslims a bad name. Trust me if the law and order was not strong in the West. You would definitely see this losers killing innocent muslims. People need to get a life
And that is truly the cultural divide. In America we accept that you cannot control other people saying inane things or printing cartoons and making fun of every religion, non-religion, political or religious belief, etc. And we don't care – one person's mocking cartoon of the Pope (for instance) does not diminish another person's belief in the Pope's goodness and message, etc. These other nations seem to be stepping out of medieval Europe – they have some growing up to do. I cannot imagine having to police the world to make sure no one says anything that insults my particular religious or cultural views – it would use up a great deal of my time and energy!
@Syed As a Muslim, what are you doing to change things?
I assume you are Muslim. Tell me is there any truth to what I am told that in paradise you will be greeted by many virgins? If so what exactly does that mean?
I love RasoolAllah (saws) more than ever. I know 2 of my friends made a firm intention to adopt the sunnah way of life. Non-muslims, your insults are making us Muslims stronger God-willing. Don't forget the eternal torment of hell waiting for the filthy disbelievers.
Yea see your last sentence is what makes others hate us Muslims, perhaps you can leave that part out because you sound just as hateful as those who hate us do. Well done for keeping up the notion that us Muslims are like that.
Listen to this man and never, ever trust them..they are not like us. Islam means submission and I have no intent to submit to their ways..which are quite barbaric. A reckoning is coming.
If you were really a true Muslim then you would know that the Quaran bars you from condemning others to Hell. That Allah is the one and only judge and that humans are not capable of judgement because as humans we have no comprehension of God .
22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean certain ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.
Quran 46:9 Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. God is the ONLY one who can judge humans.
And I am NOT A MUSLIM.
Troll or idiot. I am hoping Troll for your sake.
Sule is a ignorant child who need his mother. Like so many muslims he will not question why or what he believes. He only does what he is told like a child. If we was an adult he would know God is big enough for you to ask qustions . God gave us a brain to learn logic. Logic tells us how to reason.
1. You dont win friends by saying people who dont believe like you are going to hell or should die. Leave who should live or die to God. Nobody creates life, Its nobodys to take . I have studied islam holy books and found in inconsisent with God .
Have fun wasting your life believing in things that don't matter. The part about the fiery pit of Hell hiding underground was pretty funny.
Muslims are sensitive about the Prophet because we're slaughtering them around the world by the hundreds of thousands. If they were on top, they wouldn't care. Notice nobody does anything when someone burns an American flag because we don't have to care, we're on top.
There is not much difference between terrorists in Middle East and some of the posters here from the WEST. Bunch of ignorant, hateful bigots everywhere. You can blame the lack of education for the stupid people in the East. It is unfortunate that education is easily accessible here in the WEST yet we have a lot of educated ignorant morons. According to famous write Michael Hart, Muhammad (p) was the most influential Man in the world. You guys know nothing about the Great Prophet. Even there is a lot of garbage in the muslim history books that negatively portrays the Prophet but that stuff is not true. Please learn and get educated or live like an idiot
It's not lack of education. Some of the biggest anti-Muslim racists are the most educated. It's hate and insecurity.
We have enough grief with the Christian idiots here.
Please stay in the third world, we already have plenty of our own morons believing in imaginary sky fairies
I would love to see a credible source that says Mohammed is the most influential person in history. Remember, influential doesn't always mean good. Ghengis Kahn and Atilla the Hun bot had FOR more wide reaching influence in their lifetimes than Mohammed, and there is historical evidence to back up some of the less savory aspects of his history. YES, there is frequently exaggeration, but it is not always ignorance, just because you don't like it.
Any person who made mockery or offensive to any religion is wrong. The people who did violence on the street are stupid but the person who made the film depicting Muhammad in a negative way is even more stupid.
Agreed 100%. unfortunately even the idiot director and lunatic pastor terry jones have followers too. bunch of losers
Life Of Brian by Monty Python, as far as I know no one got slaughtered after it was released. Don't forget that mob did not see the film they just heard about it.
And why should religions be immune to mockery or ridicule?
"Any person who made mockery or offensive to any religion is wrong."
Religions and the belief in any god(s) require willful ignorance to perpetuate. They also breed hate and intolerance.
They diserve to be mocked. You would think it was funny..........or disturbing if your spouse still believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
And killing 4 people who had nothing to do with that movie accomplished what, exactly?
Ridicule and mockery are wrong that is why ! Look no further than the difference between those who go to paradise and those who don't. Jesus drew a simple picture in Luke where the one criminal mocked Jesus on the cross while the other simply said "we deserve this you are innocent, remember me when you get to paradise"
Guess who went to paradise
Joe S, you my friend are a idiot. The person who made a movie is worse than the people who killed someone. That is insane. That is the left-wing way of saying "its Americas fault, you do whatever you want to us, because we should have known better". Pitiful. These PEACEFUL Muslims rioted, started fires, and KILLED people. They are not peaceful. This wasn't all Al-Qadea operatives or Taliban militants, these were regular old Muslims. They prove over and over again that they are not a religion of peace, they are a cult of intolerance, hatred, and murder. period.
Big difference between Santa and Christ but that does not justify mocking. Why do you mock Christ?
Yes continue with your unjustified assertions more fred, that'll make them true. Get over it you moron you have not brought up anything resembling evidence to back up your assertions over the months that you've tried. You chose not to honestly answer questions I've brought up over and over again, and you cannot discuss things with anything resembling honesty.
Who? Did he send pictures from Paradise? If not, how do you know he's there?
Sorry, but I did not write the Gospel of Luke. In that accounting Christ made it clear the heart of a mocker is in start contrast with a heart that is open to God.
And you have yet to establish anything resembling authority in the bible. Quoting it to me is just a self-righteous cop out that you use every time. Thank you for illustrating my point about your inability to discuss things honestly so well.
Now, do your normal routine and respond back once or twice with irrelevant bible bullshit, or just completely ignore my posts and not address anything that I've actually brought up. You always do one of the two.
That is the wonder of God where eyes and hearts are opened to see what was once hidden. What I know is that the difference between say Mohammed and Jesus is obvious. I do not need to cite sources as everyone can clearly see that the very nature of these men is very different. If there is no soul or existence outside of our physical known limits these men are but animals doing what animals do. This is what non believers are left with at the end of the day. If we are more than animals the way we know that is the same way we know there is soul is the same way Christians know Christ sits at the right hand of God. When Jesus said paradise he was referring to the presence of God and Christ according to scripture is one with God. This is how I know Christ is in paradise.
I am not ignoring your posts. I have no idea exactly what you are looking for in this string. Please be more specific.
I asked a question, and you responded in tyical non-answer fashion. The better question is why did you respond if you weren't going to address my question.
“And you have yet to establish anything resembling authority in the bible.”
=>The Bible is a narrative or collection of stories so to speak. There is no authority in the collection of stories as there would be in say the consti-itution. However, like the const-itution it does lay out clearly how the church and believers are to conduct their lives and actions so as to free up mankind to fulfill their purpose onto heaven. The authority is not in the Bible but all authority lies with God. The church and the ministers of the gospel are authorized by that Bible to go out into the world and present the story of salvation.
You cannot argue that many men and many churches over the years have not taken that authority to heart. Thus the Bible does have authority as evidenced by empirical observation. If you do not believe me just look at the Catholic Church, the Jehovah Witness, the Church of Christ and the other thousands of denominations and priests etc. the move forward based on that authority. As we speak nothing has had the power to stop that authority given in the Bible.
Even you and all the atheists on this site do not have the power to stop that authority given by God as recorded in the Bible.
When will you fucking get it? Asserting that the bible has authority because God says it does is useless! I don't give a shit what the bible says because I don't accept the unjustified premise that there was a god that inspired the bible or anything like it.
I'm wondering why I'm bothering with this fred. It's the same argument over and over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER WITH YOU! "The bible says there's a god and we can trust the bible because god inspired it and I know that because the bible said so". Are you ever going to get it into your thick head that just because you accept the premise doesnt make it true? But like I said, I don't know why I'm bothering, it's not like you'll actually say something relevant in response.
You are at serious risk because your bias has completely blocked off you ability to comprehend a direct reply. Let me dumb down my response a bit perhaps that will help. You suggested the Bible lacks authority and pointed out its authority. You need to seriously ask yourself how it is you cannot understand that.
Again; Based upon the authority granted by God (forget your opinion as it does not matter if God exists or not as the authority is presumed) thousands of churches were established, thousands of Popes, Priests, Ministers etc. went forward and began to carry out the plan of salvation. You cannot argue against this! A simple look around in the last 1,600 years reveals that granted authority being exercised. In the United States of America that authority is protected under the const-itution and you cannot argue against what is in front of your eyes and known to even most atheists. Please go read the consti-tution and take note that special status was given religion to block any government or governing official from doing anyting to effect or affect that authority granted by the Bible.
Let me help you out, please go up to the nearest church as ask that minister by what authority to you preach, by what authority do you call this a church, marry people, condemn sin.
Again; the const-itution grants certain rights and authority such as establishing laws etc. do you accept the authority granted by the consit-itution for congress to pass laws? The Bible grants believers the right and authority to establish churches and preach the Gospel which is carried out before your eyes by authorized representatives just as authorized representatives in congress exercise the authority granted them in the const-itution.
Your opinion does not matter and the existence or non existence of God does not matter as this is in fact what is going on the world you live in. If you want to tell me we never landed on the moon that is your opinion but the fact remains we landed on the moon.
Gee another tangent with absolutely no relevant information. What a fucking surprise. Fucck your assumed premise, fuck your non-answer bullshit tangents, and fuck your unwillingness to actually discuss things in a honest manner. I ask for evidence, you give me nothing, as is your pattern.
Ok, go get yourself the best lawyer money can buy and try to stop the Priest down any street in America from preaching the Gospel. You cannot because God granted the authority and had it recorded in the Bible for all to see. If your real question is does the Bible have the authority to stop sinful practices or force you to bow before God the answer is no. To the contrary it says not to toss pearl to swine because they will turn on you as they cannot stand the light of truth.
What tangent? You asked about what authority the Bible has and I gave it to you. Direct and on the mark. You could not handle the truth as usual so resorted to a smoke screen. Sorry but the smoke was not thick enough to hide you.
If you would like a theological response to the Bible authority issue go to:
And once again, you ingore the fact that I don't accept your god premise that gives the bible authority you stupid delusional dishonest tool. What about that is so hard to fucking understand? I. DON'T. BELIEVE. IN. YOUR. PREMISE! Demonstrate your premise is true first then the bible could be considered an authority, but in your entire time here, you have never produced one shred of evidence fo your god, and guess what, NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY HAS EITHER!
And by the way, the reason you can't stop a preacher on the corner here is because of something called the FUCKING CONSTITUTION NOT YOUR BIBLE!
So go ahead fred, go on another long winded bullshit post that will only seem to address one tiny art of what I posted and ignore the rest, or give a long winded explanation of how an argument ad populum, or another fallacy "proves' god when it actually doesn't. Or some other dishonest long winded post about absolutely nothing. Which will it be fred?
So go ahead fred, go on another long winded bullshit post that will only seem to address one tiny part of what I posted and ignore the rest, or give a long winded explanation of how an argument ad populum, or another fallacy "proves' god when it actually doesn't. Or some other dishonest long winded post about absolutely nothing. Which will it be fred?
“And by the way, the reason you can't stop a preacher on the corner here is because of something called the.. CONST-ITUTION NOT YOUR BIBLE!”
=>First of all let me take you back to where the beginning of the const-itution that was only possible because of the faith of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. Without that there would be no foundation for the consti-tution. “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”. It does not matter what your opinion is or what you believe or do not believe the const-itution had as its foundation in faith that our rights were endowed by GOD! This is a resolved issue and you cannot change the past as much as you would like to. In short our right to enjoy freedom was granted by God (as acknowledged by the 56).
Second; these great men knew they needed the approval of God for any hope in our success and freedom “We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rect-itude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies…” Let there be no doubt where the authority was granted and to whom these great men looked to for the granting of that authority. Once again you opinion today is of no affect over two hundred years ago. That authority was requested of God....Period !
Third the authority was granted by God to the people. Not one person present was unaware of the words in the Bible that recorded those written promises of God. They may have had different levels of faith but faith none the less. Unlike today not a single fool was present in that congress that would stand up against God or proclaim man superior to God. Everything they did was with the knowledge of Bible in their hearts (regardless of faith level the knowledge was present).
Fourth protections were intentionally written into the const-itution so that in the event fools would occupy congress they could not trample those rights endowed by their Creator.
This is why you cannot stop a preacher and these facts cannot be changed as they are recorded in history. Now if authority is not granted by God (real or not is immaterial) why bother to appeal to God? There is your proof of authority. If people come to a known source for the go ahead or ok that is prima facie evidence that the authority was granted by that source. Your bias is showing if you think otherwise.
More lies fred? Really?
1) The constitution and the declaration are two different things. How you can be so dishonest as to pretend that those two documents are the same, or that the declaration has any effect on our laws, is just plain mind-boggling.
2) The founding fathers were a majority deists, not christians. This is a well documented fact that you constantly ignore.
3) Thank you for demonstrating a tangent so well.
"Now if authority is not granted by God (real or not is immaterial) why bother to appeal to God? There is your proof of authority. If people come to a known source for the go ahead or ok that is prima facie evidence that the authority was granted by that source."
Wow. Really? So if I were to appeal to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then that's proof it is real. Are you just trying to be as stupid as possible now?
“So if I were to appeal to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then that's proof it is real”
=>this is where you must really question your sanity. That you would equate 56 great men appealing to God before unanimously signing the Declaration of Independence with an appeal to the Flying Spaghetti Monster shows your inability to separate delusional thoughts from a real historic event.
“The founding fathers were a majority deists, not christians.”
=>take note you are the one off on tangents and twisting in the wind. I said “They may have had different levels of faith but faith none the less”. I never referred to them as Christians. Your bias hatred of Christians is exposed, no ink blot test necessary for your evaluation.
“The const-itution and the declaration are two different things”
=>sorry as I said your smoke screens cannot hide you. I never said they were the same thing I eluded to the fact that if there had not been the Declaration of Independence there would not have been a Const-itution. You act as if the const-itution came to be out of thin air. It did not and had its foundation from the heart and spirit of the writers. You cannot separate the man from his core beliefs. The declaration reflected these core beliefs and you can see the footprint in the const-itution. Keeping the hands of law and government off the Bible was not written into the const-itution by accident nor did it drop in from the minds of atheists. There is no doubt that the authority of our creator stands and when that authority grants Priests establish churches and believers to proclaim the Gospel there is not a power on earth that can thwart that authority. Go read your consti-tution.
Authority need not be granted by law or recognized by everyone (say atheists who fear Christians) to exist. A minister has the authority to marry in most states yet a 5 year old child by not be aware of that or recognize it, yet it exists nevertheless. The Bible authorizes believers to preach the Gospel, establish churches in specific order, baptize etc. The fact you do not recognize that authority does not diminish the authority or change the fact believers look to the written word and God to grant the powers and authority under heaven to conduct their lives. The Bible has authority as confirmed by empirical observation and is repeatable and verifiable.
When you capitalize that G, we all know what you're talking about. And saying that the all the founding fathers looked to God implies they all looked to the Christian god, which is patently false and you fucking know it. It's impossible to get through to you fred. You have no logic, no honesty, and no intrest in what is actually true. Let's leave it at this. I don't fucking care where you think you're authority to be a dishonest ass comes from (I guess you really took Martin Luther seriously there), and don't care where you think your bible gets its authority. Stating it doesn't make it true, and your complete inability to provide anything resembling evidence is a testament to your blind idiocy.
My stating it is not what gives the Bible authority any more than you denying it can take away its authority. It has authority. Just go ask any priest under what authority he preaches. Go ask any church by what authority are you a pastor, minister, Bishop etc and you will see it given by God in the Bible.
Now, as to capital G for God just what does that really mean. It was the Creator referred to by the 56 great men and the Supreme Judge of the World referred to by them. There is only one God and that is who I referred to in the context the 56 great men.
God is not a Christian God or a Jewish God or Allah. Moses said it best when he asked who shall I say sent me Lord. Tell them I AM sent you. That is who God is. I guess that when you claimed to be Christian at one time you really did not know God. God is present in all things yet not in the way of pantheism but as in always everywhere God is present. The ability to see God is not because God is not present but function of the heart of the person that looks for God. This is why there are different views or accounts of an experience with God.
You don't get it fred, and you never will. I don't give flying backwards fuck what some preachers says about the authority he claims, anymore than I care what you assert when it comes to what authority you claim. Just because someone claims an appeal to authority doesn't make it real. But you won't get this will you fred. You'll continue your useless blathering despite that for your own self-righteous reasons. You will continue to FLAT OUT REFUSE TO ADDRESS THE FUCKING UNDERLYING POINT! Like always, you show how little you really care about truth, discussion, or honesty.
The underlying point is that you reject God and thus have no respect for the authority of God. Believers do not reject God and have respect for the authority of God. The 56 great men that wrote the Declaration of Independence had respect for the authority of God (Supreme Judge of the World, Creator) and appealed to that authority in writing unanimously when signing that doc-ument. Your minority opinion does not matter anymore than the majority opinion matters because authority actually existed and exists based on facts as recorded in history or currently observable today.
One of us does not get it and based on recorded history and observation it is not me. Your opinion is based upon the existence of God in a materialist sense which has nothing to do with the authority presumed or extant.
Thank you for demonstrating my point so nicely. You just don't give a shit about truth, discussion, or honesty. You've ignored the point, and you will never have an honest discussion on this topic.
What is the point I am missing?
That no matter how many times you evoke a specific god, no matter how much you believe that the authority suposedly granted is real, that says nothing about the actual existence or non-existence of that god. That's why I said that part about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I'm using your own logic fred, and you dismissed it because you didn't already believe in that.
We were never talking about the existence of God on this thread. I was responding to your statement "you have yet to establish anything resembling authority in the bible". Showing authority presumed or assumed from the Bible is obvious from simple observation or historical reference.
The existence or non existence of God is a different issue. In that regard it is not necessary for God to exist in order for people (not all) to look to the Bible for authority or take authorization from the Bible (some get it wrong as when the Bible was used as authority to discriminate against minorities). Certainly from a logical point if there is no God then there is no authority in or from the Bible as it is God who is the authority and the Blble only the written account of that.
And I was not talking about assumed authority in this thread, I was talking about actual authority, of which gods existence or non-existence is intergral to the question.
Gods non existence is only important if you are looking to justify rejecting the authority you observe taking place currently (establishing churches etc) or recorded historically. Since you can neither prove nor disprove God the only evidence you have consists of consistent repeted patterns of authority coming from and through the Bible.
Case in point love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The Bible make this clear and because of the authority those words carry Christians know they are to live in that manner. If on death we discover there is no God what difference would it make if the authority was illusional as the facts refect the authority had real effect at the time.
Thank you for completely missing the point yet again fred.
I think I understood your point correct me if I am wrong. There is no proof that God does or does not exist in the absence of faith. On that basis you elect to reject any observable evidence that authority is presumed, requested and granted on a regular basis for 1,600 years. On that basis you reject the appeal by the 56 Great men who in writing asked for the blessing of the Supreme Judge of the World on the Declaration of Independence. On that basis you reject everything the Pope does according to that presumed authority granted in the Bible (right or wrong interpretation of the Bible matters not).
Do I understand your position?
No. I don't care is authority is presumed. I know it is, but that is not my point! I don't care what's presumed, I don't care how often it is. Once again I don't know why the hell you're bringing up the Declaration again and again and again and FUCKING AGAIN! What I care about is the damn truth of whether there is a god or not! That's what you've always avoided fred. Constantly, n every thread.
fred, while it is nice to see that you now admit there is no evidence for any god, it is disappointing that you have yet to take the next logical step by shedding your childish beliefs – oh well, at least you are making progress. But that's not my main point / observation. Am I correct in understanding that your new argument for remaining in silly cults is because other supposedly learned men did in th past? Wow, what a stellar argument! I suppose we should revert to believing the earth is flat and the sun goes around the earth...
No, the example of the 56 signers of the Declaration was used because they unanimously appealed to the Supreme Judge of the Word. They had different levels of faith yet accepted the authority of God as written in the Bible. My point was that for 1,600 years the Bible was accepted authority on the word of God and even if God should be proven not to exist tomorrow the fact that the Bible was the accepted authority, had authority and granted authority cannot be changed. If God is found not to exist we can then say they believed in the wrong authority but we cannot say that today.
“In the beginning God” are the first words in the Bible and it is only by faith that one can accept that. I have not found any proof that is acceptable. My faith is based on personal experience where a few years back God revealed to me the glory and wonder that is present all around us. All that was revealed was not imaginary but consisted of matter yet of a form (spiritual) that is not understood by the 5 senses but by the Spirit. That form has the power to dwell within man and transform the essence of the person. The 5 senses can observe the transformation and empirical observation will consistently attest to the transformation yet that which is Spirit does not fit the materialist construct.
Fred, there is no rational reason for anyone to continue to believe in supernatural beings. You seem to understand there is no evidence for your believes yet you cling to them. Are you getting help with your admitted delusions?
Not that I have given up looking for proof that may just save a non believer. When I first came to this site I was surprised that people could not see the wonders of God. Shortly to find all my proofs were full of holes and did not amount to a hill of beans for anyone that lacked faith. I came here with a bag of proofs and leave with only my faith. But I leave hopeful that God will reveal the wonder to any that are open to the possibility.
If I want to loose my faith all I really need to do is get back into worldly stuff for while. Perhaps only once would do it ….it is hard to say. I can say that on a continual basis I must pray and review all that God had done personally and why I believe. If I get distracted my faith begins to slip. Like working out at the Gym once you stop or skip a few sessions it is easy to drift back to the natural state ………
Its all very hypocritical.
Not entirely. Religion has never pretended to be anything other than mass hysteria and, by definition, insanity through disconnection from reality., Also lying, thieving. misogynistic, etc etc Time to stamp it out.
Remember, this is Obama's religion. He was raised a Muslim. When has he ever publically denounced his religion of his youth. Never. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim.
when have you ever denounced your christianity publicly? Thieving from elderly widows, sodomy of children, exploitation and expansion of poverty and stupidity? Good for the goose...
His sister in law is a rabbi, genius.
really crazy explaination. where the hell he comes from in all of this debate.
Do you know how inbred you sound? I mean redneck, mama was your sister inbred?
You lament the Camel Jockey's, yet most of them live in third world squallor, one step above mud huts, with almost ZERO practical education.
Whats your excuse? Faux News and some Hill Billy preacher went and poisoned your brain?
You know when I read posts like yours, I realize that whole swathes of this country are just as azz backwards as the people in Somalia
I don't know that he was an avowed Muslim 'in his youth', but since we all as children pretty much have to go along with the religion our parents pick for us, I think a person's religion as an adult tends to reflect their views.
You know the commandment against bearing false witness? Yeah, you just violated that one. Even if President Obama were a muslim you'd just be a plain bigot.
Gee eu you must know more than anyone else. I did not see anywhere in this article that CNN condones what happen. I would like to ask you a question, are you a republican?
Non-Muslims need to understand that Muslims love the Prophet Muhammad more than they love thair families, friends and their own selves. Non-Muslims don't share any such intense love in their lives towards anybody. They (non-muslims) can easily absorb mockery of their gods, idols etc. But we as human beings need to understand the sensitivities of other people. Curse words, slanders and hate will not eliminate Islam or Muslims, but in fact make them stronger.
For Muslims, the best way to respond to this satanic act of mocking a beloved of God is to START FOLLOWING THE SUNNAH. Rioting on the streets is not going to help. To slap the kuffar on their faces is to implement the teachings of Prophet Muhammad in our lives. As a response to this Muslims men need to start groing sunnah beards and stop burning flags.
all religions are nonsensical lies. You are speaking sense to mass hysteria. Good luck.
Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance. Really??? Really????
Muslims don't protest over movies in which the eating of pork is depicted. No, Muslim leaders seem to pick and choose which of their prohibitions is worth organizing a protest over. Muslims: It's the 21st Century, not the 7th. The idea of freedom of people to express unpopular views has made its way throughout the world, and your countries are not insulated from it. You want Internet? You want satellite TV? Then you're going to see things you find distasteful. That is too bad.
Blowing up 655,000 Muslims in Iraq to steal their oil and calling for Iranians to be killed so Israel can become the biggest economic power in the region is not "expressing free speech."
I just wish that all the valiant atheists who are bashing Mohammed and Islam to go out and do it in the open. Than hiding themselves and their bigmouths behind this anonymous board forever.
pot meet kettle.
Who is hiding?
Been bashing them since Beirut.
A cult of idiots, they are basicaly Christians with Asbergers Syndrome
I will be happy to oblige !!!
#1- I do not care what Muslims think when they commit their acts of violence.
#2-Until you ALL start telling the truth about what exactly is written in The Quran, the hatred and racism it spouts on almost everyone of it;s pages against Jews and Anyone who is classified an Infadel which is anyone that does not adhere to or believe in this so called Prophet.
#3-Where are The So Called Good Muslims right now while this story is Unfolding and why aren't any of them condeming all of this behaviour by their own so called brothers and sisters?
#4-Why do want people to bash Muhammed in the OPEN...?... so you can Kill them all is what it sounds like to me whihc is Typical of all of your people not just some, all of you...and imho not saying anything about your brother or cousin who just murdered someone cause they said something you did not like or stated they believe in something you do not believe in makes you all as guilty as your brother and cousin the murders !!!
#5-Period end of truth, learn it !!! Maybe this world will be abetter place when you all do !!!
Good day !!!
also science is now teaching us that the Atheists and Agnostics are far far far closer to the truth of Human Evolution than any single religion will Ever be !!!
religion, all of it, separates mankind into groups and celebrates all of our differences, the exact opposite of what this world needs right now and at a time in our history when what it needs more than anything else is for all of us to start celebrating all of our our similarities.
Then why not tell Mr. Silverman to erect a billboard depicting Mohammed as what your fellow atheists are describing the latter on this board.
Now is the best time to do it. You can do it as support to the family of the victims of this nonsense killing.
"also science is now teaching us that the Atheists and Agnostics are far far far closer to the truth of Human Evolution than any single religion will Ever be !!!"
Yes, you had it absolutely right! Because atheists look, behave and act like chímps.
We got a extremist here.We support science as much as the next guy.Some of your beliefs are killing people.
I was 9/11 and the jihadi's wanted to make trouble. If it wasn't a film they used as reason to incite violence, they would have found something else. They will always find something to object to.
I've never understood why the Arabs would steal a religion, Islam, from a people they hate, the Jews, and try to make it their own with a few idiosyncrasies thrown in to justify the difference between Islam and Judaism. Most of the characters are the same as are many of the stories. Why not conjur up an entirely new religious concept to, at least, show some originality.
Well they DON'T hate Jews, obviously. They differentiated Arab Judaism into its own religion because the Jews of Jerusalem did not accept them. Of course this kind of "I didn't want to go to your stupid party, anyway" version of history is true, but it is not believed by Muslims.
You mean like Romney and the Mormons did? One built on lust and greed and messages and salvation from/ln space and enslaving women in their holy longunderwear in Utah summers and excluding ALL minorities as subhuman? And you want him to be President?
F the mus and F their goofy prophet
Your post proved the oppositeof your handle.
Muslims are sensitive when it comes to Prophet because they are trying to be like him. Having multiple wives, under aged girls as wives, stoning humans to death, illiterate and ignorant, trying to get multiple angels after death (Allah knows for what !) Forcing people into islam or kill them if not and take the wives and make kids out of them..etc etc.. So if prophet is potrayed differently what ever teachings and practise he did will go in vein. That's the history. What a Faith ?
... says the christian crusader whose fellow adherent ancestors slaughtered them by the tens of thousands for the greater glory of HIS "god".., and has stolen from the poor, perpetuated misogyny, and tolerated pederasty for, oh, coupla thousand years. Not to mention but I will... not just dodging taxes gut shifting that burden to individual homeowners all across the USA and gotten away with it by corrupting our politicians. Nice try. d-head.
Yes Islam does allow for multiple wifes, but under certain conditions. You must have the approval of your other wife to marry another wife. I find this to be more acceptable, then "the hit and run" that happens in America, when there is a high chance to not even know who your father is.
Thanks for the explanation, CNN! That sure justifies cold-blooded murder for me! Gee, I wonder who owns CNN? Hmmmmmm...